IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-01-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:05:41] * bkdelong_ (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  2. [00:09:54] <tantek_> hey kingryan, any reason to delete the q from rel-tag-faq?
  3. [00:10:16] * Tantek is now known as tantekc
  4. [00:10:25] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  5. [00:10:25] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  6. [00:15:54] * keithale1ander (n=keithale@87.112.1.11.bbplus.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  7. [00:18:51] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4416 * EranGloben * (+16) fixed link
  8. [00:23:03] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  9. [00:23:03] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com
  10. [00:25:05] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.112.17.203.bbplus.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  11. [00:43:47] * othermaciej (n=mjs@ppp-69-236-43-146.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  12. [00:44:36] <KevinMarks> hi maciej
  13. [00:44:47] <othermaciej> hello KevinMarks
  14. [00:52:16] * therealadam (n=adam@66.196.247.89) Quit ()
  15. [00:56:40] <kingryan> tantek, I moved that q to rel-tag-issues
  16. [00:58:52] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  19. [01:09:57] * regeya (n=shane@adsl-sp3-cdale176.micgi.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  20. [01:10:06] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
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  23. [01:18:45] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) Quit ()
  24. [01:30:49] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4417 * RyanKing * (+528) Dan Connolly - added overall implied schema for DanC
  25. [01:35:20] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4418 * RyanKing * (+456) Mark Pilgrim - added overall implied schema for markp
  26. [01:36:01] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4419 * RyanKing * (+1) Professional Experience - fixing formatting
  27. [01:45:33] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@pcp01381199pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) Quit ()
  28. [01:46:42] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4420 * RyanKing * (+345) Eran Globen - overall summary for eran
  29. [01:47:18] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4421 * RyanKing * (+31) Interests - forgot the header
  30. [01:48:44] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4422 * RyanKing * (+54) Education/ Military - more analysis
  31. [01:56:50] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4423 * RyanKing * (+442) Tara Hunt - overall implied schema for Tara Hunt
  32. [02:12:52] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) has joined #microformats
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  37. [03:00:14] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  38. [03:00:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  39. [03:03:49] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) Quit ()
  40. [03:09:02] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  42. [03:37:22] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@A17-207-14-244.apple.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
  43. [03:40:20] * keithale1ander (n=keithale@87.112.1.11.bbplus.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
  44. [03:46:36] <tantek> hey kingryan, resume-examples is looking good
  45. [03:47:04] <kingryan> thanks
  46. [03:49:41] * tantek sets mode +o tantekc
  47. [04:18:00] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) has joined #microformats
  48. [04:18:00] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
  49. [04:23:30] <mfbot> [[press]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=press&diff=0&oldid=4424 * Tantek * (+926) added Google Web Authoring Stats publication
  50. [04:32:32] <mfbot> [[events]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events * Tantek * (+293)
  51. [04:33:17] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4425 * Tantek * (+13) shared work areas -
  52. [04:33:43] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4426 * Tantek * (+14) shared work areas -
  53. [04:44:06] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-112-44.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  54. [05:14:02] * zacker (n=zack@64-121-11-35.c3-0.sfpo-ubr2.sfrn-sfpo.ca.cable.rcn.com) Quit ()
  55. [05:46:09] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@pcp01381199pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) Quit ()
  56. [06:10:14] * rejon (n=rejon@adsl-71-132-243-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  57. [06:10:14] <jibot> rejon is a killer MC from staten island and is the 10th member of the wutang clan and http://www.rejon.org/
  58. [06:15:57] <rejon> hello...how did you all setup your supybot to get your CVS updates?
  59. [06:18:41] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  60. [06:19:52] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  61. [06:20:57] <kingryan> rejon, supybot?
  62. [06:21:50] <rejon> the bot in your channel
  63. [06:22:19] <rejon> mfbot: help
  64. [06:22:22] <kingryan> uh, I don't see a supybot. are you talking about mfbot?
  65. [06:22:29] <rejon> yes
  66. [06:22:38] <kingryan> that's not cvs, that's mediawiki
  67. [06:22:41] <tantekc> rejon, we have at least three bots in the channel right now
  68. [06:22:41] <rejon> supybot is the type of bot
  69. [06:22:52] <tantekc> jibot, mfbot, mflogbot
  70. [06:22:58] <tantekc> ?def mfbot
  71. [06:22:58] <jibot> mfbot is a little bot kingryan put together with pieces from mediawiki to report on wiki changes and http://microformats.org/wiki/mfbot
  72. [06:22:59] <kingryan> and its all stuff that comes with mediawiki
  73. [06:23:07] <tantekc> ?def mflogbot
  74. [06:23:07] <jibot> mflogbot is logging #microformats (http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot)
  75. [06:23:13] <tantekc> ?def jibot
  76. [06:23:13] <jibot> jibot is the kind of bot that thinks whatever we tell it to think & blogging at http://hashjoiito.bloxus.com & pure joy & slightly confused about the meaning of & on sf at http://sourceforge.net/projects/jibot/ & has a wiki page at http://joiwiki.ito.com/joiwiki/?jibot & a hoe
  77. [06:24:05] <rejon> thx...(setting up bots on the #cc creativecommons channel)
  78. [06:24:14] <kingryan> mfbot is actually a 3 line shell script :D
  79. [06:24:24] <rejon> do you all have any svn/cvs repositories setup
  80. [06:24:33] <rejon> really...so it comes with standard mediawiki installs?
  81. [06:24:57] <mfbot> [[xmdp]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/xmdp * Tantek * (+154)
  82. [06:25:15] <kingryan> well, the parts do, you have to put them together
  83. [06:25:27] <rejon> could I get a copy of your guys' mfbot
  84. [06:25:28] <kingryan> we're "working on" an svn repos
  85. [06:25:39] <kingryan> #!/bin/sh
  86. [06:25:39] <kingryan> cd /var/www/wiki/irc
  87. [06:25:39] <kingryan> php rcdumper.php -m \#microformats | ./mxircecho.py mfbot irc.freenode.net
  88. [06:25:43] <kingryan> :D
  89. [06:26:16] <kingryan> just replace the second line with the path to the irc dir in your wiki install
  90. [06:26:24] <rejon> hahaha
  91. [06:26:27] <rejon> sweet
  92. [06:26:28] <mfbot> [[xmdp-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/xmdp-examples * Tantek * (+337)
  93. [06:27:00] <kingryan> you might have to change some settings in the php and python scripts
  94. [06:27:04] <kingryan> but it shouldn't be tough
  95. [06:27:04] <mfbot> [[xmdp-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-examples&diff=0&oldid=4427 * Tantek * (+13) XMDP Examples -
  96. [06:28:30] <rejon> great!
  97. [06:28:49] <rejon> so you all don't have any repository notification (svn/cvs)
  98. [06:29:04] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) has joined #microformats
  99. [06:29:04] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
  100. [06:34:41] <kingryan> rejon, no we dont' have a repository
  101. [06:35:08] <rejon> ok...thx for the help
  102. [06:35:54] <rejon> also...I just got back from visiting Beijing and a colleague of mine is working on a project to gather info/contacts for other academics in media arts in china
  103. [06:36:05] <rejon> he of couse wanted to build a contact database
  104. [06:36:36] <rejon> I sold him though on the idea of using microformats and pushing this more onto the academics to put in/on their pages
  105. [06:36:51] <mfbot> [[hreview-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=4428 * Tantek * (+202) items can have multiple photos
  106. [06:37:46] <rejon> so that then rather than requiring ppl to update their profiles, they could update in one place...and then he could just focus on mining these sites, or developing some type of contact aggregator
  107. [06:38:51] <tantekc> precisely
  108. [06:41:46] <rejon> I haven't done much research on how to do, but could see some simple mf for defining academic research
  109. [06:42:07] <rejon> what spec would be good for defining profile (akin to myspace/tribe profile)
  110. [06:42:17] <rejon> ?
  111. [06:44:23] <kingryan> for academic research, there's work being done on citations
  112. [06:44:37] <kingryan> for social network site profiles, hcard+xfn would probably cover most of it
  113. [06:44:52] <rejon> really?
  114. [06:45:36] <rejon> my thought is to develop something akin to planetplanet to develop a basic social networking site that pulls content from various ppls' sites (social network aggregator?)
  115. [06:46:19] * zacker (n=zack@h-67-102-71-4.snfccasy.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  116. [06:46:19] <jibot> zacker is working at CivicSpace Labs : www.civicspacelabs.org
  117. [06:46:54] <tantekc> rejon, the sites are quite inconsistent
  118. [06:47:03] <tantekc> easiest thing to do is to start with hCard
  119. [06:47:05] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  120. [06:47:05] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
  121. [06:47:35] <rejon> true...the point is to develop some light-standards for this type of service, in hopes of raising the level of the water (for all the boats)
  122. [06:47:58] * zacker (n=zack@h-67-102-71-4.snfccasy.covad.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  123. [06:48:03] <kingryan> just adding hcard would be a huge improvment
  124. [06:48:36] <rejon> hCard + xfn + rss (blog/media/etc)
  125. [06:49:09] <rejon> with that could write enough to mine basic relationships between ppl., and have a basic social network service
  126. [06:49:18] <rejon> agree?
  127. [06:49:48] <kingryan> yes
  128. [06:49:54] <kingryan> then you can iterate from thre
  129. [06:50:08] <kingryan> btw, rejon, I think I've seen on in coffee to the people before
  130. [06:51:32] <rejon> explain
  131. [06:55:52] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4429 * ChrisRG * (+139) Examples - - Added REBOL datatypes
  132. [06:55:55] <kingryan> you know coffee to the people? the coffee shop at haight and masonic?
  133. [06:56:26] <rejon> aha...oh yeah
  134. [06:56:38] <rejon> Cool...I work for Creative Commons
  135. [06:57:00] * kingryan saw you sitting on the couch, saw rejon.org|com|whatever sticker on your laptop
  136. [06:57:04] <kingryan> don't know what I remember
  137. [06:57:07] <rejon> aha...cool
  138. [06:57:17] <rejon> rejon.org
  139. [06:59:18] <tantekc> ?def rejon
  140. [06:59:18] <jibot> rejon is a killer MC from staten island and is the 10th member of the wutang clan and http://www.rejon.org/
  141. [07:00:34] <rejon> www.rejon.org/bio/
  142. [07:00:40] <tantekc> i am going to refactor reviews-formats into review-examples and review-formats to be consistent with our modern practice (hReview research was done before the process was very well defined, and as such the experience of doing that research helped shape the process)
  143. [07:01:53] <kingryan> sounds good tantekc
  144. [07:02:36] <rejon> excellent
  145. [07:11:01] <tantekc> rejon, your /bio page looks ideal for adding some hCard goodness.
  146. [07:11:17] <rejon> yes, I need to :)
  147. [07:11:26] <rejon> majorly
  148. [07:12:05] <rejon> I'm really into doing this social aggregator project...will get plenty of time to hCard out in the near future
  149. [07:12:24] <mfbot> [[review-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/review-examples * Tantek * (+4250) created from reviews-formats page
  150. [07:16:45] <kingryan> rejon, have you heard about rhyzomatic ?
  151. [07:16:59] <kingryan> its another social-network-aggregator sort of thing
  152. [07:20:35] <mfbot> [[review-formats]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/review-formats * Tantek * (+3085)
  153. [07:24:52] * rejon checks it out
  154. [07:36:13] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  155. [07:38:06] <mfbot> [[reviews-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4430 * Tantek * (+212) see review-examples, review-formats for latest.
  156. [07:52:00] * kingryan is now known as kingryan|afk
  157. [08:10:31] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  158. [08:10:58] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  159. [08:19:53] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4431 * ChrisRG * (+6) Examples - updated REBOL entry
  160. [08:30:04] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (No route to host)
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  164. [08:49:53] <rejon> night all thx!
  165. [08:50:36] * rejon (n=rejon@adsl-71-132-243-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit ("Bye! Catch me at http://www.rejon.org/")
  166. [08:50:36] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (Success)
  167. [08:58:07] * kingryan|afk is now known as kingryan
  168. [09:01:43] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  169. [09:03:29] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  170. [09:03:29] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  171. [09:07:34] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
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  173. [09:11:15] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  174. [09:18:36] * limbo_ is now known as limbo_gone
  175. [09:19:14] * bergie (n=bergie@proton.idasact.org.za) has joined #microformats
  176. [09:19:14] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  177. [09:21:39] * _TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
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  181. [11:51:13] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  182. [11:51:13] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com
  183. [12:41:51] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-87-129.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  184. [12:58:26] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
  185. [13:06:20] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
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  187. [13:15:07] * _fil__ (n=fil@www.rezo.net) Quit ("leaving")
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  190. [13:36:15] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  191. [13:36:15] <jibot> amanuel_ is running The Intentional Web Initiative http://intentionalweb.org
  192. [13:40:27] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  193. [13:40:28] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
  194. [13:59:18] * bergie (n=bergie@proton.idasact.org.za) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  195. [14:15:07] * izo_ (n=izo@LNeuilly-152-23-33-39.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit ()
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  199. [15:10:25] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
  200. [15:11:29] <bkdelong> Another LazyWeb question......do we list sites/services looking for hCard and hCalendar markup? Is anyone aggregating it yet?
  201. [15:18:16] * qid (n=david@brewmeister.cs.rit.edu) has joined #microformats
  202. [15:23:00] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  203. [15:23:00] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  204. [15:34:33] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  205. [15:34:34] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  206. [16:00:59] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  207. [16:03:47] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=4432 * Tantek * (+18) Introduction -
  208. [16:05:08] <mfbot> [[review-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4433 * Tantek * (+9)
  209. [16:06:14] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=4434 * Tantek * (+45)
  210. [16:06:30] <mfbot> [[review-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-formats&diff=0&oldid=4435 * Tantek * (+9)
  211. [16:08:21] <mfbot> [[reviews-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4436 * Tantek * (+166)
  212. [16:10:02] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4437 * Tantek * (+81) Exploratory discussions -
  213. [16:15:13] <mfbot> [[review-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4438 * B.K. DeLong * (+139) Centralized Implementations -
  214. [16:15:49] <mfbot> [[review-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4439 * B.K. DeLong * (-5) TV.com -
  215. [16:19:23] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N150P002.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  216. [16:19:23] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  217. [16:21:15] <mfbot> [[review-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4440 * B.K. DeLong * (+184) Centralized Implementations -
  218. [16:22:58] <dglazkov> ?help
  219. [16:23:25] <bkdelong> No jibot
  220. [16:23:30] <bkdelong> alas.
  221. [16:23:38] <bkdelong> Wait
  222. [16:23:43] <bkdelong> ignore me. Sheesh
  223. [16:24:14] <dglazkov> ?learn dglazkov is lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  224. [16:24:14] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  225. [16:24:34] <dglazkov> me soo pretty
  226. [16:24:36] <bkdelong> You need to forgetme first
  227. [16:24:43] <bkdelong> right?
  228. [16:24:57] <dglazkov> not necessarily. I just wanted to add info.
  229. [16:25:02] <dglazkov> the geo crap
  230. [16:25:06] <bkdelong> or did you just add that to the end with a learn and it keeps adding "and" and....I'm an idiot for asking
  231. [16:25:17] <dglazkov> I call it geocrapical information
  232. [16:25:21] <bkdelong> Sorry. Trying to do too much at once
  233. [16:25:40] <dglazkov> np
  234. [16:25:53] <bkdelong> ?learn bkdelong is lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  235. [16:25:54] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  236. [16:26:20] <dglazkov> ?help
  237. [16:26:41] <dglazkov> ?whois *
  238. [16:26:41] <jibot> * is everything and at http://jibot.joi.ito.com:8080/braindump.rpy and yarr
  239. [16:26:47] <dglazkov> heh
  240. [16:31:13] <bkdelong> Do we have a microformat for FAQS? ie semantically linking a question with its answer?
  241. [16:32:00] <dglazkov> I don't think there's a format per se
  242. [16:32:32] <bkdelong> Hrm...
  243. [16:33:35] <trovster> Is anyone on efnet? If so, join this channel there.
  244. [16:33:55] <bkdelong> Why duplicate?
  245. [16:36:09] <trovster> Because some people don't use freenode?
  246. [16:38:27] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@pcp01381199pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  247. [16:39:11] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  248. [16:46:11] <qid> bkdelong: I seem to recall something about that... gut response says dl/dt/dd
  249. [16:46:43] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  250. [16:47:05] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  251. [16:47:06] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
  252. [16:51:07] <tantekc> bkdelong, a microformat for FAQs could be interesting
  253. [16:51:26] <tantekc> consider starting the research with the examples page: /wiki/faq-examples
  254. [16:51:36] * tantekc (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  255. [16:53:02] <bkdelong> Cool, tantek - good idea qid.
  256. [16:55:04] <RobertBachmann> FAQs = XOXO + hAtom + X?
  257. [16:55:20] <bkdelong> X?
  258. [16:55:25] <qid> I can't recall seeing a FAQ that didn't follow a "question followed by answer, possibly with subheadings" format
  259. [16:56:07] <RobertBachmann> X=the markup we need to figure out.
  260. [16:57:21] <bkdelong> gotcha.
  261. [16:57:47] <bkdelong> brb
  262. [17:11:11] * therealadam (n=adam@66.196.247.89) has joined #microformats
  263. [17:16:45] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  264. [17:16:46] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  265. [17:24:06] * izo_ (n=izo@LNeuilly-152-23-33-39.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit ()
  266. [17:24:44] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  267. [17:24:44] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  268. [17:27:49] * dustym (n=dustym@office.cavoksolutions.com) has joined #microformats
  269. [17:29:14] * dustym (n=dustym@office.cavoksolutions.com) has left #microformats
  270. [17:31:37] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  271. [17:31:37] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  272. [17:31:41] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  273. [17:33:53] * dustym (n=dustym@office.cavoksolutions.com) has joined #microformats
  274. [17:34:59] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  275. [17:35:03] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N150P002.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  276. [17:37:16] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@adsl-69-104-2-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  277. [17:37:42] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  278. [17:38:26] <tantek> not sure how an FAQ needs or uses hAtom
  279. [17:38:37] <tantek> it does seem like a XOXO at the outside
  280. [17:38:51] <tantek> of "Question and Answer" items
  281. [17:39:11] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2440P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  282. [17:39:19] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  283. [17:39:32] <dglazkov> i don't think hAtom should be a requirement either
  284. [17:39:48] <dglazkov> but if somebody wanted to make their FAQs feedable, the should be able to
  285. [17:40:03] <tantek> obviously we need to do some research, but it could be as simple as <ul class="xoxo hfaq">, and then inside the individual <li>s, elements with class="question" and class="answer"
  286. [17:40:04] <dglazkov> a strawmanish scenario
  287. [17:40:11] <tantek> that's my strawman ;)
  288. [17:40:29] * tantek returns to resolving hReview issues/questions...
  289. [17:42:44] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  290. [17:42:53] * amanuel__ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  291. [17:49:41] <RobertBachmann> I thougth of hAtom because most FAQs seem to be (similar to) small articles.
  292. [17:51:24] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@h-67-103-44-6.snfccasy.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  293. [17:51:43] <tantek> Robert, the problem is you could generalize that to all prose is similar to small articles
  294. [17:51:52] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  295. [17:52:00] <tantek> the key with hAtom is not small articles, but time based / episodic content
  296. [17:54:26] <qid> after looking at the HTML spec, I think the definition of DL is vague enough that you could use it for a FAQ, with the question in DT and the answer in DD
  297. [17:54:47] <qid> which would eliminate the need for classes to indicate question vs. answer
  298. [17:58:38] * _TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  299. [17:58:46] <bkdelong> Actually, at least giving an example with a FAQ as a fee would be great. Then you can see everytime it's updated or added to.
  300. [17:59:47] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  301. [18:04:30] <RobertBachmann> hAtom might make sense in some cases in others it won't. Anyway let's defer this until we got past the example collection.
  302. [18:06:03] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  303. [18:07:16] * cee-dub is now known as ceedub
  304. [18:08:05] <bkdelong> Hixie, you there?
  305. [18:10:26] * ceedub is now known as cee-dub
  306. [18:23:17] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  307. [18:23:17] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  308. [18:24:27] * taare_ (i=taare@ti100710a081-8028.bb.online.no) has joined #microformats
  309. [18:27:34] * _TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (Success)
  310. [18:30:37] <bkdelong> trovster: I just meant it seems very fracturing to have discussion on two different IRC networks regardless of whether people ONLY use EFNet or not. Is there any logging or synchronization of this channel?
  311. [18:32:03] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  312. [18:35:07] <tantek> bk, see /topic
  313. [18:35:31] <trovster> Heh, yes, there is.
  314. [18:36:20] <bkdelong> I know ours is logged, tantek. I meant the EFnet one. ;)
  315. [18:37:02] <tantek> how many folks in the EFnet channel?
  316. [18:37:06] <trovster> No, there is no logging in that channel. I just started it.
  317. [18:37:21] * taare (i=taare@ti100710a081-3363.bb.online.no) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  318. [18:37:32] <trovster> There are 4 people, who joined after I mentioned it in the op channel for #css
  319. [18:38:00] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  320. [18:38:06] <tantek> trovster, could you set the topic to the EFNET channel to "Go join irc://irc.freenode.net/#microformats" ;)
  321. [18:38:36] <trovster> I could, but I'm not going to!
  322. [18:38:43] <trovster> # Microformats - http://microformats.org | rel="freenode" | http://www.digital-web.com/articles/microformats_primer/
  323. [18:39:18] * taare_ is now known as taare
  324. [18:41:20] <mfbot> [[xmdp-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-examples&diff=0&oldid=4441 * Tantek * (+112) added AOL ModuleT
  325. [18:41:49] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  326. [18:47:24] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit (Excess Flood)
  327. [18:48:24] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) has joined #microformats
  328. [18:52:30] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2440P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  329. [18:56:21] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@pcp01381199pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  330. [18:58:22] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  331. [18:58:35] <LTjake> hello.
  332. [18:59:25] <trovster> woo. I'm see "you" in a few months.
  333. [19:00:56] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  334. [19:02:17] <LTjake> i'm working on updating the lucene webservice (lucene-ws.sf.net) to be a valid atomstore and valid opensearch target -- at the same time someone suggested i might look at XOXO as a good way to describe a lucene document (a bunch of fields with key/value pair attributes)...
  335. [19:02:30] <LTjake> it seems kinda verbose, but is it a good idea no-less?
  336. [19:03:12] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@pcp01381199pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  337. [19:03:25] <tantek> hello LTjake, welcome!
  338. [19:03:43] <tantek> yes, XOXO output works well for describing lists of key-value pairs
  339. [19:04:12] <LTjake> (brb phone :)
  340. [19:07:58] <tantek> bbiab
  341. [19:08:07] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  342. [19:09:48] * _psychic_ (n=john@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  343. [19:11:09] <Hixie> bkdelong: am now
  344. [19:14:39] * _psychic_ (n=john@71.32.228.156) Quit ()
  345. [19:17:30] <qid> bkdelong: tag, you're it
  346. [19:20:35] <trovster> Anyone thought of a microformat for comments?
  347. [19:21:22] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  348. [19:24:01] <qid> I saw some pages related to that on the wiki
  349. [19:24:40] <qid> http://microformats.org/wiki/comments-formats
  350. [19:25:12] * bewest|work (n=bewest@pcp0011022684pcs.midltn01.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  351. [19:25:32] <qid> looks like that's as far as it's gotten
  352. [19:32:02] <LTjake> is it legit to mark items in an XOXO with a certain class to identify them as "special"?
  353. [19:32:36] <KevinMarks> yes, classes are additive
  354. [19:32:54] <KevinMarks> though the existing xoxo parsers will ignore them
  355. [19:34:16] <LTjake> great.
  356. [19:36:26] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2411P012.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  357. [19:36:26] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  358. [19:43:07] <RobertBachmann> trovster: what's the other channel good for?
  359. [19:43:45] <trovster> Talking with people who are interested in microformats, who are on efnet
  360. [19:45:12] <RobertBachmann> Is there any difference between efnet and freenode?
  361. [19:45:20] <trovster> Yes.
  362. [19:45:26] <trovster> One's efnet. One's freenode.
  363. [19:45:33] <RobertBachmann> ;-)
  364. [19:47:27] <RobertBachmann> efnet is bigger?
  365. [19:47:46] <bewest|work> I think efnet is less focused on technology
  366. [19:48:31] <bewest|work> it's like the difference between google and yahoo?
  367. [19:50:35] <othermaciej> which is google and which is yahoo?
  368. [19:54:04] * limbo_ (n=egloben@hrn53502.cs.usfca.edu) has joined #microformats
  369. [19:54:04] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
  370. [19:54:25] * limbo_ pets jibot
  371. [20:03:07] <bewest|work> freenode is to google as efnet is to yahoo
  372. [20:04:17] * Tantek (n=Tantek@70.103.248.130) has joined #microformats
  373. [20:08:06] <Tantek> greetings
  374. [20:08:07] <LTjake> Tantek: hello again.
  375. [20:08:17] * Tantek resumes editing review-* related pages
  376. [20:08:23] <Tantek> hello LTjake
  377. [20:08:50] * amanuel__ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  378. [20:10:23] <LTjake> Tantek: here's an example atom entry/xoxo for lucene-ws: http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/6359
  379. [20:10:34] <LTjake> Tantek: it seems horribly verbose :)
  380. [20:12:49] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/review-brainstorming * Tantek * (+1463) separated out brainstorming bits from old reviews-formats page
  381. [20:15:35] <mfbot> [[review-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4442 * Tantek * (-311) clean up aggregate analysis of examples
  382. [20:17:37] <Tantek> LTjake - yes, I think that's more verbose than it needs to be. ;)
  383. [20:17:56] <LTjake> Tantek: is there a better way to write that?
  384. [20:18:05] <LTjake> Tantek: or does that mean not using XOXO? :)
  385. [20:18:56] <othermaciej> xoxo has shorthand ways of writing some common properties
  386. [20:19:19] <KevinMarks> primarly ones around links
  387. [20:19:21] <othermaciej> test, description, url, title, type, rel
  388. [20:19:26] <othermaciej> *text I mean
  389. [20:19:35] <Tantek> it also feels like some of the hierarchy
  390. [20:19:39] <Tantek> is inverted
  391. [20:20:30] <Tantek> it looks like all the <li>s in that example should actually be just one item
  392. [20:20:30] <KevinMarks> type text seems very redundant
  393. [20:20:53] <othermaciej> the "Special Properties" part of the spec is kind of vague though - not clear if you are allowed to use the <a> shorthand if you don't have a URL
  394. [20:21:04] <othermaciej> or whether the shorthand was meant to be the only shorthand defined, or just one example
  395. [20:21:09] <LTjake> Tantek: each li represents one field of the document.
  396. [20:21:32] <Tantek> LTjake - that's misuse of the li I think
  397. [20:21:44] <Tantek> each dt/dd pair should represent one field of the document
  398. [20:21:44] <LTjake> Tantek: the first text node of the <li> is the value, and then the <dl> is the list of properties of that field.
  399. [20:21:57] <Tantek> e.g. instead of <li>4
  400. [20:21:58] <Tantek> <dl>
  401. [20:21:58] <Tantek> <dt>name</dt>
  402. [20:21:58] <Tantek> <dd>chapter</dd>
  403. [20:21:58] <Tantek> <dt>type</dt>
  404. [20:21:58] <Tantek> <dd>text</dd>
  405. [20:21:59] <Tantek> </dl>
  406. [20:22:01] <Tantek> </li>
  407. [20:22:03] <Tantek> it should be
  408. [20:22:09] <Tantek> <dt>chapter</dt><dd>4</dd>
  409. [20:22:38] <LTjake> where does "type" go?
  410. [20:22:41] <Tantek> no need
  411. [20:22:44] <LTjake> yes.
  412. [20:22:48] <Tantek> they're all text/keyword anyway
  413. [20:22:56] <LTjake> that's just that example.
  414. [20:23:17] <Tantek> XOXO items and fields are all untyped
  415. [20:23:19] <LTjake> there can also be other properties depending on how the field was indexed in lucene.
  416. [20:23:58] <Tantek> sure
  417. [20:24:04] <Tantek> but all those properties can go in one <dl>
  418. [20:24:10] <Tantek> for the item
  419. [20:24:13] <KevinMarks> yes
  420. [20:24:36] <LTjake> so each field is a <dl> then?
  421. [20:24:38] <KevinMarks> one dl for the record, with <dt> for field names and <dd> for values
  422. [20:24:50] <Tantek> no each field is not itself a <dl>
  423. [20:24:53] * chimezie (n=cogbuji@fw1.fourthought.com) has joined #microformats
  424. [20:25:00] <Tantek> each field is a <dt>fieldname</dt><dd>fieldvalue</dd>
  425. [20:25:15] <Tantek> one <dl> contains all the fields for an item
  426. [20:25:17] <KevinMarks> if you want to type the values, you can use classes - we have done some work on thinking about this
  427. [20:25:37] <Tantek> for now though, it doesn't look like there is any need
  428. [20:25:55] <Tantek> LTjake, try doing it again, compressing using the transform I gave you above for the "chapter" field.
  429. [20:26:02] <Tantek> let me know when you've updated the example
  430. [20:26:09] <LTjake> i can have fields that have properties like unsorted="1" unindexed="1" ... where do those go?
  431. [20:26:37] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4443 * Tantek * (+13) Thoughts on a Microformat -
  432. [20:26:45] <KevinMarks> http://opendarwin.org/~drernie/xoxo-datatypes.html is one attempt
  433. [20:27:38] <Tantek> LTjake: those don't make sense "per item"
  434. [20:27:41] <KevinMarks> is there a URI format defined for Bible verses? seems liek there should be
  435. [20:27:47] <Tantek> since those are aspects of those fields that are universal across items
  436. [20:28:10] <Tantek> Kevin - maybe that's something to delegate to Rome. ;)
  437. [20:28:46] <bewest|work> KevinMarks: bible citations would be a subset of general citations
  438. [20:29:20] <KevinMarks> well, there is a unifom convention
  439. [20:29:30] <Tantek> hah
  440. [20:29:31] <KevinMarks> Genesis 4:1
  441. [20:29:33] <LTjake> Tantek: sorry, "univeral across items"? not every field in the document is indexed the same.
  442. [20:29:44] <Tantek> "uniform convention" in the context of religion is a way to get into a lot of fights.
  443. [20:30:07] <LTjake> Tantek: but maybe i didn't catch your statement right. :)
  444. [20:30:14] <bewest|work> Tantek: yet there is a convention for notating bible quotes
  445. [20:30:15] <Tantek> LTjake, but a field is indexed the same no matter which item it is on
  446. [20:30:31] <Tantek> therefore there is no need to say "unsorted" on a field for EVERY SINGLE ITEM
  447. [20:30:33] <bewest|work> books chapter:verse
  448. [20:30:37] <Tantek> therefore it doesn't belong there in the hierarchy
  449. [20:30:39] <KevinMarks> well, 'chapter and verse' is the cliche for exact reference
  450. [20:31:06] <LTjake> Tantek: okay, it looks like i'm getting my terminoligy mixed up -- i'm equating 1 item to 1 field in a lucene document.
  451. [20:31:20] <Tantek> items have properties/fields
  452. [20:31:28] <bewest|work> book chapter[-chapter]-verse[[portion] -verse[portion] ...]
  453. [20:31:41] <Tantek> a document is just a collection of items
  454. [20:31:43] * limbo_ (n=egloben@hrn53502.cs.usfca.edu) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  455. [20:31:45] <bewest|work> erm, something like that
  456. [20:33:18] <Tantek> LTjake, just attempt the transform I recommended above and let's see what it looks like
  457. [20:33:31] <LTjake> Tantek: started... :)
  458. [20:33:35] <Tantek> cool. :)
  459. [20:37:51] <LTjake> http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/6360
  460. [20:38:02] <LTjake> okay. there it is, though i've lost my type attributes.
  461. [20:38:14] <LTjake> sorry for being particularly dense. :)
  462. [20:38:29] <KevinMarks> thats much better
  463. [20:38:52] <LTjake> KevinMarks: though incomplete...
  464. [20:38:54] * Tantek (n=Tantek@70.103.248.130) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  465. [20:39:01] <KevinMarks> could updated be a human-readable date?
  466. [20:39:45] <LTjake> the human readable one is in the <entry> part
  467. [20:42:04] <KevinMarks> (presumably 3000BC or so, or 1611)
  468. [20:42:58] <KevinMarks> no, thats machien reable for Atom
  469. [20:43:24] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  470. [20:43:44] <LTjake> well, the <content> section needs to be exactly what is stored.
  471. [20:44:28] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  472. [20:45:39] <KevinMarks> sorry, I missed the original use case
  473. [20:45:45] <LTjake> no prob :)
  474. [20:45:52] <KevinMarks> yes, you do want a reversiblr transform
  475. [20:46:06] <LTjake> it's a lucene indexed document is all.
  476. [20:48:30] <LTjake> KevinMarks: how would you add any custom attributes to that structure?
  477. [20:49:26] <KevinMarks> the general principle is that the stuff you want people to see is outside <> and the stuff fro computers is inside
  478. [20:49:47] <KevinMarks> so you coudl add classes on the dt's
  479. [20:50:19] <LTjake> i don't get how you'd do key-value pairs in classes :)
  480. [20:50:29] <KevinMarks> though I think the attributes are a property of the whole column of fields, not the individual record
  481. [20:52:05] <LTjake> for example, if i wanted to add "cheese => chedar" as an attribute of the <dt>id</dt> entry ....
  482. [20:52:31] <qid> LTjake: that makes no sense though
  483. [20:52:37] <KevinMarks> right
  484. [20:52:44] <KevinMarks> pick real examples
  485. [20:52:53] <LTjake> fine, i'll go back to type, then.
  486. [20:52:59] <LTjake> type => keyword
  487. [20:53:12] <KevinMarks> <dt><dd> is the way to do key value
  488. [20:53:13] <qid> you'd have <dt>cheese</dt><dd>cheddar</dd>
  489. [20:53:16] <KevinMarks> and you cna nest them
  490. [20:53:36] <LTjake> so it would be a nested <dl> for any properties
  491. [20:53:55] <qid> type is generally fairly simple, you could do that as a class on the dt
  492. [20:54:27] <qid> as in <dt class="guid">id</dt><dd>574289674895649247356457894685 etc.</dd>
  493. [20:54:28] <LTjake> http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/6361
  494. [20:54:52] <LTjake> ^-- nested like so?
  495. [20:55:09] <KevinMarks> though a GUID is a bit of a foul think to expose to humans
  496. [20:55:10] <qid> I can't think of anything besides type that would need to be attached to a key-value pair
  497. [20:55:28] <qid> wait, sorry, the type should be attached to the DD I think
  498. [20:55:46] <KevinMarks> well, if it's a keyword, you should use rel="tag" if you can
  499. [20:55:53] * lmorchard (n=deusx@63.102.87.27) has joined #microformats
  500. [20:55:56] <qid> I dunno... either could work
  501. [20:56:22] <KevinMarks> though why is 'Genesos_4_1' a keyword?
  502. [20:56:48] <KevinMarks> maybe I'm just not understanding the impled schema here
  503. [20:57:03] <qid> but you could do <dt>chapter</dt><dd class="string">Genesis</dd><dt>verse</dt><dd class="int">4</dd> for example
  504. [20:57:34] <KevinMarks> though class="string" is best left implicit
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  506. [20:57:46] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  507. [20:57:51] <LTjake> keyword means something very specific in lucene. it means that is: stored, indexed and not tokenized
  508. [20:58:11] <LTjake> type="unindexed" means: stored, not indexed and tokenized
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  511. [21:01:24] <LTjake> KevinMarks: but, in general, i could any number of random key value pairs to add to any term.
  512. [21:02:14] <KevinMarks> "in general" is a dangerous way to start a microformats conversation...
  513. [21:02:22] <LTjake> heh
  514. [21:02:39] <KevinMarks> XOXO allows arbitrarily nested lists and key-value things
  515. [21:02:54] <KevinMarks> it maps well to data structrues in Python and Perl and PHP and so on
  516. [21:02:59] * lmorchard (n=deusx@63.102.87.27) Quit ()
  517. [21:03:09] <LTjake> was i right to nest on the <dd> or should i nest on the <dt>?
  518. [21:04:06] <qid> I think if you're going to have a term that contains many arbitrary key-value pairs, you should stick another dl inside the dt
  519. [21:04:23] <bewest|work> qid: you mean dd?
  520. [21:04:27] <qid> yes.
  521. [21:04:37] <KevinMarks> yes, within dd
  522. [21:04:58] <qid> dt and dd are way too easy to confuse
  523. [21:05:05] <KevinMarks> yes
  524. [21:05:29] <KevinMarks> mapping to a DB is trickier
  525. [21:05:41] <KevinMarks> as they don't nest, whereas data strutures do
  526. [21:06:04] <qid> yeah, you'll have to normalize all this if you want to put it in a relational database
  527. [21:06:48] <KevinMarks> really, a <table> is a better mapping for a relational db
  528. [21:06:48] <therealadam> there's a good chapter on doing tree structures in phil greenspun's sql primer thing
  529. [21:06:50] <LTjake> i'm using it for a wire format, is all.
  530. [21:07:51] <bewest|work> therealadam: I saw some nice stuff by joe celko (I think)
  531. [21:08:14] <bewest|work> has anyone used Joe Celko's SQL for Smarties?
  532. [21:08:20] <qid> I'm getting a bad feeling of "encapsulating XML in XML" here when you start moving to arbitrary key-value pairs
  533. [21:08:33] <bkdelong> bbl
  534. [21:08:52] <LTjake> qid: pretty much :)
  535. [21:09:32] <KevinMarks> well, I use XOXO that way internally
  536. [21:10:01] <bewest|work> qid: how is it any more than encapsulating data in xhtml?
  537. [21:10:10] <KevinMarks> moving key value pairs between languages
  538. [21:10:17] <edsu> encapsulating xml in xml :)
  539. [21:10:21] <KevinMarks> wrapping it in Atom is an extra thing
  540. [21:10:29] <bewest|work> ah
  541. [21:12:18] <qid> shoot, there was an article somewhere that was going through the history of blog protocols that explained what I was talking about
  542. [21:13:37] <LTjake> i gotta run -- work's over. i'll be back to harass you guys later. :)
  543. [21:13:41] <LTjake> thanks for the help thus far!
  544. [21:14:15] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  545. [21:14:21] <qid> I could've sworn it was on xml.com...
  546. [21:14:40] <KevinMarks> was it by markp by any chance?
  547. [21:15:20] <qid> http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/10/15/dive.html <-- here it is
  548. [21:15:56] <qid> "So we've reinvented XML, over RPC, over XML. Badly."
  549. [21:17:06] <therealadam> of course, markp always reports on the best-case scenario :)
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  553. [21:30:41] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
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  556. [21:44:42] <Tantek> darn LTjake left
  557. [21:45:31] <Tantek> i'm not sure about <dl class="xoxo">
  558. [21:45:40] <Tantek> i think this should be <ul class="xoxo">
  559. [21:45:46] <Tantek> and then for the item, use the text
  560. [21:46:05] <Tantek> <li>And the man knew...
  561. [21:46:10] <Tantek> and then inside that <li>
  562. [21:46:19] <Tantek> include the <dl> with the rest of the properties
  563. [21:46:29] <Tantek> and that should just about do it
  564. [21:46:49] <Tantek> ok, back to hReview work
  565. [21:46:51] <qid> well, I got the impression he was using this as a wire format for some row in a table
  566. [21:47:09] <qid> so he explicity wanted those key-value pairs
  567. [21:47:15] <Tantek> sure
  568. [21:47:20] <Tantek> those go in the <dl> as he has them
  569. [21:47:41] <Tantek> in XOXO, there are a handful of "special" keys that get optimized in the markup
  570. [21:47:42] <qid> but then the sub-key-value-pairs attached to a key-value pair is a little weird
  571. [21:47:45] <Tantek> see the XOXO spec for details
  572. [21:48:06] <Tantek> my point was that the sub-key-value-pairs are both unnecessary and undesirable at that point in the data
  573. [21:48:19] <Tantek> since the sub-key-value-pairs are same for that field on all items
  574. [21:48:45] <qid> well if he does <ul class="xoxo"> with a <dl> inside the <li>, now it's always a list of one item... so why have the list...
  575. [21:50:42] <Tantek> the presumption is he might return more than one item
  576. [21:50:50] <Tantek> and yes, the minimal XOXO document is a list of one item :)
  577. [21:51:17] <qid> well, with the format example he used, it looked like it was intended to be just a single item
  578. [21:51:37] <Tantek> i thought the single item aspect was just for the purpose of the example
  579. [21:51:40] <Tantek> not the general rule
  580. [21:52:10] <Tantek> hey is Benjamine Carlyle here?
  581. [21:52:17] <dglazkov> why use XOXO for a wire format?
  582. [21:52:27] <Tantek> dglazkov, easier to debug etc.
  583. [21:52:43] <Tantek> avoids having to write a DTD
  584. [21:52:45] <Tantek> etc.
  585. [21:53:14] <dglazkov> I guess ...
  586. [21:53:42] <KevinMarks> I use it for a wire format a lot
  587. [21:54:03] <KevinMarks> to pass data structures cross language
  588. [21:55:34] <othermaciej> it is kind of neat that you could have a XOXO format list and have the same document be both machine-parsable and suitable for display to humans when styled with CSS
  589. [21:55:49] * othermaciej states the obvious
  590. [21:55:56] <dglazkov> KevinMarks: arbitrary data structures?
  591. [21:56:12] <othermaciej> so given that, even when using it in a "pure wire format" context you may as well use a format that will enable future display to humans
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  593. [21:56:39] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  595. [21:56:48] <Tantek> othermaciej, that's only obvious once you "get it", until then it is very non-obvious to most folks, especially programmers.
  596. [21:57:00] * Tantek encourages othermaciej to continuing "stating the obvious" :)
  597. [21:57:00] <KevinMarks> well, ones without a strong binary component
  598. [21:57:27] <Tantek> another reason is that many "wire" formats evolve into something that is eventually displayed to the user
  599. [21:57:30] <othermaciej> well one place where this especially strikes me as useful is things like blogrolls
  600. [21:57:37] <othermaciej> no need to import/export OPML
  601. [21:57:42] <othermaciej> just have the blogroll *be* XOXO
  602. [21:57:46] <othermaciej> no import/export step
  603. [21:57:47] <Tantek> another reason is that many "wire" formats actually represent human level data, so why not keep it human friendly?
  604. [21:57:51] <othermaciej> it seems so obviously right
  605. [21:57:56] <Tantek> precisely othermaciej
  606. [21:58:14] <Tantek> in many ways, XOXO proved that OPML was never necessary as "yet another specialty XML format"
  607. [21:58:28] <chimezie> 5~5~/quit
  608. [21:58:29] <KevinMarks> it is very handy to be able to just dump the data structure into a browser
  609. [21:58:30] * chimezie (n=cogbuji@fw1.fourthought.com) Quit ("chimezie has no reason")
  610. [21:58:48] <Tantek> the whole tendency by programmers/architects to keep coming up with specialty XML formats has been acknolwedged by Tim Bray as a very bad tendency, and one to be avoided
  611. [21:59:31] <Tantek> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/01/08/No-New-XML-Languages
  612. [21:59:38] * Atamido wants a javascript guru to fancify his XOXO for him.
  613. [21:59:55] <othermaciej> why would you need JS to fancify your XOXO?
  614. [22:00:07] <othermaciej> (I'm a JavaScript guru but I don't see why you would need it)
  615. [22:00:14] <othermaciej> unless you want to make a collapsable list or something
  616. [22:00:25] <Atamido> Doing stuff like this. http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/
  617. [22:00:28] <othermaciej> really the best thing for that would be XBL/HTC
  618. [22:00:43] <othermaciej> but those aren't portable enough to use
  619. [22:01:14] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  620. [22:01:25] <othermaciej> Atamido: you could do that with pretty minimal javascript and some CSS
  621. [22:01:41] <othermaciej> Atamido: here's what I'd do
  622. [22:02:06] <KevinMarks> just use chris holland's script
  623. [22:02:09] <othermaciej> give the li with the disclosure triangle class="collapsible"
  624. [22:02:26] <KevinMarks> thats part of the point of standardising class names
  625. [22:02:27] <othermaciej> and an onclick handler that adds class "collapsed" if present, removes otherwise
  626. [22:02:33] <KevinMarks> his js will work on your xoxo
  627. [22:02:37] <othermaciej> or something like that
  628. [22:02:39] <Atamido> I need an effect a bit more complex than what Chris is providing.
  629. [22:02:56] <Atamido> But it is still far down on my todo list.
  630. [22:03:03] <KevinMarks> les orchard did one that enabled editing
  631. [22:03:05] <Atamido> I have other, more pressing matters.
  632. [22:03:18] <KevinMarks> well, use chris's in the meantime
  633. [22:03:25] <othermaciej> then you can have CSS rules that give appropriate list marker images for li.collapsible.collapsed and li.collapsible
  634. [22:03:55] <othermaciej> and you can have li.collapsible.collapsed ul { display: none; }
  635. [22:04:01] * bewest|work (n=bewest@pcp0011022684pcs.midltn01.nj.comcast.net) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
  636. [22:04:06] <othermaciej> which will automatically hide sublists when you set the right class
  637. [22:04:10] <othermaciej> this would be a trivial script
  638. [22:04:15] <othermaciej> like maybe 5 or 6 lines of JS
  639. [22:04:18] <othermaciej> if you have the right CSS rules
  640. [22:04:46] * limbo_gone is now known as limbo_
  641. [22:04:52] <othermaciej> (no idea how chris holland's script works or if XOXO has standard ways of representing collapse/expand)
  642. [22:04:53] <KevinMarks> better, do the 'collapsible' at the <ol> level
  643. [22:05:08] <KevinMarks> class="compact" means collapsed
  644. [22:05:29] <othermaciej> in the page linked, the title still shows
  645. [22:05:37] <othermaciej> so you'd probably need a :first-child rule
  646. [22:05:44] <othermaciej> to make that not hide
  647. [22:05:48] <KevinMarks> http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/outlines.js
  648. [22:06:22] <othermaciej> that looks surprisingly complicated
  649. [22:06:47] <othermaciej> also extremely weird to set a mouseup handler on the document as the way to catch clicks
  650. [22:07:19] <othermaciej> (because (a) why not onclick and (b) why not on the individual elements affected by click)
  651. [22:07:52] <othermaciej> also setting window.onload is bad because it will fight with any inline onload handler set on the body
  652. [22:08:03] * othermaciej wonders where to file bug reports on this script
  653. [22:08:28] <Atamido> Not using onclick drastically simplifies the HTML.
  654. [22:08:48] <othermaciej> how is it any simpler than using onmouseup?
  655. [22:08:49] <KevinMarks> the point is the JS decorates the XOXO to add the handlers
  656. [22:09:00] <othermaciej> I get that, it's just doing it wrong
  657. [22:09:06] <othermaciej> using wrong event, attaching event to wrong object
  658. [22:09:10] <KevinMarks> sorry, that was for Atamido
  659. [22:09:23] <KevinMarks> you pass in XOXO, call a script and it makes it active
  660. [22:10:46] <othermaciej> oh I see, html4 has a standard compact attribute
  661. [22:10:53] <othermaciej> (though I have no idea what UAs do with it)
  662. [22:11:51] <othermaciej> is there a stylesheet meant to go with this?
  663. [22:13:46] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2411P012.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving")
  664. [22:14:44] <Tantek> i thought Les Orchard's presentation of XOXO was quite good
  665. [22:15:36] <mfbot> [[hreview-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=4444 * Tantek * (+1059) how to review a stock
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  667. [22:23:47] <mfbot> [[reviews-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4445 * Tantek * (+27) Current Reviews Formats -
  668. [22:33:10] * kingryan is now known as kingryan|afk
  669. [22:33:24] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4446 * Tantek * (+944) hReview 0.3 brainstorming summary
  670. [22:39:48] <Tantek> i've captured the current set of changes being strongly considered (most already accepted by the editors/authors) for hReview 0.3 in the review-brainstorming page.
  671. [22:40:20] <Tantek> please take a look. If you have additional issues or feedback, add them respectively to the /wiki/hreview-issues and /wiki/hreview-feedback pages
  672. [22:40:42] <Tantek> I'm planning to post the hReview draft in the next 24-48 hours, so now is the time to speak up to make sure any outstanding issues get handled.
  673. [22:40:56] <Tantek> bbiab
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  682. [23:18:10] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  683. [23:20:29] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
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  685. [23:33:32] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  686. [23:33:32] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  687. [23:33:35] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  688. [23:36:00] * tara (n=tara@h-66-134-141-205.snvacaid.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  689. [23:36:00] <jibot> tara is Miss HorsePigCow (http://www.horsepigcow.com/) and the alter-ego of missrogue
  690. [23:37:43] <KevinMarks> hi tara
  691. [23:37:59] <tantek> welcome Tara
  692. [23:38:01] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  693. [23:40:23] <Enric> Hey Tara ;)
  694. [23:42:39] <tara> hello Tantek
  695. [23:42:42] * kingryan|afk is now known as kingryan
  696. [23:42:43] <tara> hello kevinmarks
  697. [23:42:45] <tara> hello enric
  698. [23:46:41] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  699. [23:47:08] * TantekC (n=Tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  700. [23:48:06] <Enric> How's it going, t?
  701. [23:50:16] <tara> good...busy at work (although I'm taking a wee break to chat with my friends and check in on the whole world of Microformats)
  702. [23:51:18] <othermaciej> KevinMarks: I came up with a much nicer / simpler version of chris holland's collapsible list thingie
  703. [23:51:24] <othermaciej> KevinMarks: should I put it somewhere?
  704. [23:51:42] <tantek> othermaciej, definitely
  705. [23:51:49] <othermaciej> KevinMarks: turns out that the compact attribute on lists is not really a good thing to use in this case
  706. [23:51:54] <tantek> why?
  707. [23:52:12] <othermaciej> tantek: you want the style of the li containing the list to change on collapse
  708. [23:52:13] <tantek> the spec even has the CSS necessary to make it work ;)
  709. [23:52:25] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
  710. [23:52:36] <othermaciej> tantek: and CSS selectors can't be based on attributes of your children
  711. [23:52:42] <tantek> hmm...
  712. [23:52:45] <othermaciej> I did this:
  713. [23:52:46] <othermaciej> li.collapsible.collapsed {
  714. [23:52:46] <othermaciej> list-style-image:url('http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/img/triangle.gif')
  715. [23:52:49] <othermaciej> }
  716. [23:52:52] <othermaciej> li.collapsible {
  717. [23:52:53] <tantek> why not have the nested list draw the triangle?
  718. [23:52:54] <othermaciej> list-style-image:url('http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/img/triangle_down.gif')
  719. [23:52:58] <othermaciej> }
  720. [23:53:05] <tantek> because the nested list is what actually indicates that there *should* be a triangle
  721. [23:53:10] <tantek> not the containing list item
  722. [23:53:16] <tantek> i.e.
  723. [23:53:22] <othermaciej> you could do that, if you made the list collapse to the first item
  724. [23:53:25] <tantek> existence of nested ul/ol ----> draw a triangle
  725. [23:53:31] <othermaciej> rather than being contained in an li that has the heading that's not part of the list
  726. [23:53:41] <tantek> does the nested ul/ol have compact attribute? ----> draw the triangle "closed"
  727. [23:53:45] <othermaciej> but you then couldn't use bullets at all on list items
  728. [23:53:58] <othermaciej> because you would get a bullet and then a triangle inside
  729. [23:54:16] <othermaciej> I wish we had lisppaste in here
  730. [23:54:17] <tantek> the point is
  731. [23:54:25] <tantek> you don't want bullets on all list items in an outline
  732. [23:54:38] <tantek> bullets on leaf list items in an outline are noise
  733. [23:54:41] <tantek> visual noise
  734. [23:54:58] <tantek> e.g. look at a Finder list view
  735. [23:55:01] <othermaciej> I agree (they are certainly not there in OS X outline views, which is the style I like)
  736. [23:55:10] <tantek> notice that non-folders lack anything like "bullets"
  737. [23:55:12] <tantek> right
  738. [23:55:15] <othermaciej> ok I'll do a version that precludes bullets
  739. [23:55:16] <tantek> problem solved ;)
  740. [23:55:32] <othermaciej> still need somewhere to paste it when done
  741. [23:55:53] <tantek> you mean like a site to upload some HTML?
  742. [23:56:01] * tantek wonders if othermaciej has a blog
  743. [23:56:05] <othermaciej> well, mostly I'd like to show the source
  744. [23:56:09] <othermaciej> I don't have a working one right now
  745. [23:56:56] <KevinMarks> mac.com
  746. [23:56:58] <othermaciej> I could put it on the wiki as source
  747. [23:57:24] <othermaciej> I didn't do dl support yet though so it wouldn't be that great
  748. [23:57:32] <othermaciej> tantek: so you think lists should collapse to their first item?
  749. [23:57:43] <othermaciej> tantek: rather than there being a separate header outside the list?
  750. [23:57:49] <othermaciej> cause that seems semantically wrong to me
  751. [23:59:58] <othermaciej> yeah, see, looking at the xoxo example here: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Simple_XOXO_Fragment

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