IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

[00:00:18] * bear is now known as bear_dinner
[00:00:19] <kingryan> isn't that enough? :D
[00:01:25] <yakk> kingryan, I wish it was...
[00:01:45] <kingryan> better data with less work for publishers isn't enough?
[00:02:13] <yakk> kingryan, well, the lack of structure and the lack of tools make it hard for me to get excited
[00:02:30] <yakk> kingryan, if I want to make strong statements about the way that various data relates I can't
[00:03:10] <yakk> kingryan, and I don't have any way to generate microformatted content for some of the formats I want or verify that my content is microformatted correctly
[00:04:02] <yakk> kingryan, it makes me want to implement my own microformat or non-microformat
[00:04:03] <kingryan> sure, we don't have tools for everything yet
[00:04:31] <kingryan> if you have things you want to do, which we don't support yet, then suggest them
[00:04:33] <yakk> kingryan, is there a good repository of libraries for dealing with microformatted content?
[00:04:36] <kingryan> no need to fork
[00:04:55] <yakk> kingryan, well, for one I want to be able to say "this is a list of my contacts"
[00:06:02] <kingryan> do people link to lists of contacts on the web already?
[00:06:12] <yakk> yes
[00:06:28] <yakk> any social networking site has a list of contacts
[00:06:39] <kingryan> ok, the process for developing a microformat involves looking at real-world examples
[00:07:19] <yakk> well, really I want the microformat for: http://loic.livejournal.com/profile
[00:07:35] <yakk> FOAF already does this
[00:07:46] <kingryan> I would think that using xfn's 'me' would work well enough
[00:07:54] <yakk> (in fact, its already at http://loic.livejournal.com/data/foaf)
[00:08:03] <kingryan> 'cause anyone who's looking for your contacts would have to follow me links anyway
[00:08:06] <yakk> but we've decided that FOAF is evil
[00:08:26] <yakk> the problem is that I have software to publish a list of contacts
[00:08:44] <yakk> and then someone else can use software to subscribe to that list
[00:08:57] <yakk> unfortunately I'm trying to solve a problem that isn't currently solved
[00:09:02] <kingryan> yeah
[00:09:10] <yakk> so perhaps its outside the scope of microformats :)
[00:09:12] * limbo__ (n=me@dsl081-055-160.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
[00:09:15] <kingryan> somewhat
[00:09:27] <kingryan> we're just pretty skeptical/conservative
[00:09:34] <yakk> so am I
[00:09:52] <yakk> well, I'm skeptical of microformats and conservative about implementing them
[00:10:28] <kingryan> that's fair
[00:10:52] <yakk> the only think I'm really trying to do that hasn't been done is to make the kind of profile and social network information that social networking sites maintain and publish machine readable
[00:11:47] <yakk> current microformats seem to be focussed on the blogging microcosm
[00:12:35] * limbo__ (n=me@dsl081-055-160.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
[00:13:05] <kingryan> yeah, somewhat focused on blogging
[00:13:18] <kingryan> partially b/c that's where there's the most interest
[00:14:04] * yakk nods.
[00:14:11] <kingryan> btw, more on visible data: http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359
[00:14:32] <yakk> are there toolkits around for parsing microformatted pages?
[00:14:56] <pnhChris> i also see more of a focus on representing small pieces of information rather then large scale envrinoments or collections of information... at least up to this point
[00:17:20] <yakk> I feel like the small pieces don't actually give me enough information to make useful statements based on the information
[00:17:36] <yakk> <address class="vcard"> is a start
[00:17:52] <pnhChris> well, its a different take, or need rather
[00:18:01] * limbo_ (n=me@dsl081-055-160.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
[00:19:30] <pnhChris> i'm looking at them from the angle that there are individual items i'm already publishing on a page that aren't really structured well under html alone and that the added convention of microformats like hcard or hcalendar allow me to tighten thigns up and make it more consumable
[00:19:48] <pnhChris> i'm not really looking for a solution to the same issue you are
[00:21:30] <pnhChris> .. and its not really a blog thing necessarily ... cause i see more usage like events pages or about the company stuff
[00:21:42] <pnhChris> where small bits are being extracted
[00:22:02] <pnhChris> usually on a very page local case
[00:22:19] <kingryan> yakk, there are general parsers in python and ruby
[00:22:31] <kingryan> xoxo ones in php, python and java
[00:22:44] <yakk> any javascript tools?
[00:22:45] <kingryan> and javascript
[00:22:57] <kingryan> there's some javascript xoxo outline stuff
[00:23:24] <yakk> ok
[00:23:32] <yakk> where are these parsers? I can't find them in the wiki
[00:24:20] <kingryan> all over the place, unfortunately
[00:24:41] <kingryan> we try to make sure implementors add themselves to the wiki, but it doesn't always happen
[00:25:24] <kingryan> I believe markp has some javascript parsing stuffs
[00:26:08] <kingryan> like http://diveintomark.org/projects/greasemonkey/hcard/
[00:26:20] <kingryan> and http://diveintomark.org/projects/greasemonkey/rellicense/
[00:26:47] <limbo__> ryan, what about the firefox extension that was discussed earlier?
[00:26:59] <limbo__> that should have some parsing code
[00:27:11] <limbo__> tails?
[00:27:24] <kingryan> yeah
[00:27:31] <kingryan> I haven't looked at its source, though
[00:27:46] <limbo__> ah
[00:29:18] <yakk> but nothing that would take like an xmdp profile and spit out useful data?
[00:29:45] <limbo__> doubtful
[00:30:42] <limbo__> although with a good library, parsing can be pretty simple like the ruby code i pasted before
[00:32:53] <kingryan> what data do you want from an xmdp profile?
[00:33:09] <kingryan> you know, its not intended to be enough to generate code from
[00:33:57] <KevinMarks> there's miffy
[00:34:05] <KevinMarks> though that may be too huge
[00:36:05] <yakk> I guess not
[00:36:32] <yakk> I want to be able to take a document with microformats in it and be able to ask questions
[00:36:44] <yakk> "give me the hcard data for the author of this page"
[00:36:44] <tantek> yakk, BTW, Wordpress implements its contacts/people list with XFN
[00:36:58] <tantek> it's a tool for publishing a list of contacts
[00:37:09] <yakk> or "give me a list of the people that this person has relationships with"
[00:37:16] <tantek> which you can also annotate with other relationship info
[00:37:22] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=5082 * RyanKing * (-22) callin' it 0.1
[00:37:28] <tantek> yakk, rubhub.com and xhtmlfriends.net both do that
[00:38:01] <yakk> tantek, are there libraries of code that implement these kinds of things?
[00:39:32] <kingryan> trac.labnotes.org/cgi-bin/trac.fcgi/wiki/Ruby/MicroformatParser
[00:39:36] <kingryan> is a library for one
[00:40:09] <yakk> ok
[00:40:21] <yakk> I haven't used ruby much - just the token one-night rails app
[00:40:22] <tantek> yakk, in addition, that's why keep the formats deliberately super simple
[00:40:37] <tantek> so that it's actually not that hard for you to write the code yourself
[00:40:43] <yakk> tantek, I guess I don't know where to start
[00:40:57] <tantek> unlike many things, it's less time to write the code in many cases than to go looking for a library to reuse
[00:41:00] <yakk> tantek, I have html parsers and dom implementations
[00:41:14] <tantek> right, and GetElementByClassname javascript functions
[00:41:39] <tantek> the last time someone complained about difficulty of parsing etc., markp smacked them with a 10 line script
[00:42:02] <tantek> not that i'm advocating smacking that is
[00:42:16] <limbo__> yakk, take a look at the docs for the library ryan posted.
[00:42:21] <limbo__> it uses css selectors
[00:42:37] <limbo__> ends up being pretty simple to use
[00:42:47] <limbo__> (although not quite easy to debug yet)
[00:45:52] <yakk> I'm used to the simplicity of rdf :(
[00:46:39] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[00:46:45] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) has joined #microformats
[00:46:46] <kingryan> lol
[00:47:56] <yakk> kingryan, sadly it seems way simpler to use than microformats
[00:48:05] <kingryan> perhaps
[00:48:12] <kingryan> but µf's are easier to publish
[00:48:17] <kingryan> which means we get more of them
[00:48:21] <yakk> kingryan, ds.Flush()
[00:48:37] <kingryan> which means that you get a greater payoff from writing indexing code
[00:48:44] <kingryan> huh?
[00:48:53] <yakk> I don't buy that there are actually real microformats in the wild
[00:49:16] <yakk> I mean, how many of the people with a default wordpress install actually know Matt?
[00:49:52] <limbo__> actually, i dont think the default install includes any xfn data in those links
[00:49:58] <tantek> right limbo
[00:50:12] <tantek> yakk, publishers are more important than consumers. get used to it.
[00:50:13] <yakk> oh, okay
[00:50:26] <kingryan> see http://third-man.com/blog/
[00:50:29] <yakk> tantek, yep, but real people don't write html
[00:50:30] <kingryan> no xfn data
[00:50:41] <tantek> yakk, you're wrong. that's why the web took off.
[00:50:50] <tantek> TimBL admits this in Weaving the Web.
[00:51:05] <tantek> it's a common misconception
[00:51:20] <yakk> tantek, well, I don't want to write html
[00:51:21] <tantek> but making formats easy to hand-author is a sufficient market advantage to beat out other formats
[00:51:49] <tantek> for every one web programmer who doesn't want to write html, there are 100s of web designers who do
[00:51:58] <tantek> microformats are optimized for the many, not the few
[00:52:18] <yakk> but web designers aren't my target market
[00:52:33] <tantek> web designers/authors are the ones who build the web
[00:52:37] <tantek> is the web not your target market?
[00:52:50] <yakk> I don't care about 100s of web designers, I want to build for the tens of millions of kids on myspace
[00:53:31] <yakk> and yes, a lot of those people do trivial html
[00:53:40] <tantek> and they do view source and copy and paste
[00:54:01] <tantek> and they even learn a bit about CSS and using HTML classes
[00:54:04] <yakk> thats because the tools suck
[00:54:11] <tantek> and then they get microformats
[00:54:34] <KevinMarks> well, for things liek mysapce, we just need to convince one chap who makes html from his database
[00:54:37] <KevinMarks> like avon
[00:54:46] <tantek> kevinmarks, it is easier than that
[00:54:54] <tantek> all we have to do is convince the one chap who does the html *templates*
[00:55:01] <KevinMarks> yes
[00:55:19] <tantek> we don't even have to bother with the web programmers behind the scenes who are all caught up in abstraction-alnd
[00:55:22] <tantek> land
[00:56:00] <kingryan> speaking of myspace: http://www.bustedtees.com/in/btnews/tom
[00:56:03] <tantek> yakk, are you saying you want to work for myspace? i don't understand your point.
[00:57:13] <yakk> tantek, I don't think that hand-authoring is that important
[00:58:02] <yakk> tantek, I think being able to do something useful with the data once its in the page is way more important
[00:58:17] <kingryan> yakk, but if there's no data in pages...
[00:58:32] <kingryan> more data = mo' betta
[00:58:56] <hober> either the end user does the markup, or some developer does the markup; either way, the markup is hand-authored.
[00:58:59] <tantek> yakk, the presence and quality of the data is FAR more important than the ease of "doing something with it"
[00:59:02] <tantek> and that being said
[00:59:10] <tantek> it is much easier to parse and do something with simpler formats
[00:59:14] <tantek> than it is complex formats
[00:59:23] <tantek> simpler formats reduce costs for *everyone*
[00:59:45] <tantek> formats that "just work" with (X)HTML and the way people publish information on the Web *today* = more data, higher quality
[01:00:11] <tantek> hidden data = less reliable, more out of date
[01:00:23] <tantek> random silo files of data = less reliable, more out of date, people don't bother
[01:00:45] <tantek> and hober's point is VERY important
[01:01:03] <tantek> hand-authoring is important because *SOMEBODY* in the tool chain has to hand-author and debug the markup
[01:01:13] <tantek> and the easier it is for them the easier it is for them to get results
[01:01:24] <tantek> for authors that hand-author, that means more content gets written
[01:01:34] <tantek> for developers, that means tools get written more quickly
[01:01:42] <tantek> easy to hand-author = more tools faster
[01:01:50] <yakk> ok
[01:02:03] <yakk> I understand the argument
[01:02:11] <yakk> I don't buy it yet though
[01:02:20] <yakk> I don't see more tools
[01:02:21] <tantek> and actually, i kind of gave up winning this argument with people in theory (read: most W3C folks)
[01:02:24] <yakk> and I don't find the formats simple
[01:02:24] <hober> argumentum ad amminiculum
[01:02:29] <yakk> primitive yes, but simple no
[01:02:33] <tantek> and figured, the best way is with simple market adoption
[01:02:43] <yakk> they work by overloading existing attributes in html in ways that I find confusing
[01:02:49] <tantek> talk is talk. when people publish data, that's action.
[01:02:57] <tantek> yakk, not overloading at all
[01:03:01] <tantek> all of it is within spec
[01:03:26] <tantek> I strongly suggest you read HTML4 cover to cover before trying to start that argument.
[01:04:43] <yakk> okay
[01:04:52] <yakk> provided people are using profiles its compliant
[01:05:09] <yakk> well, its not a must, but a should
[01:05:50] <tantek> yakk, that's right. and i'm definitely behind in writing up profiles for everything. no doubt.
[01:07:11] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
[01:08:16] <yakk> the simplicity of formats seems to nececitate the mixing of formats which at least makes things visually confusing to me
[01:09:09] <yakk> to get a blogroll you mix xoxo, hcard, xfn and hreview
[01:10:19] <yakk> (or perhaps xfolk)
[01:10:36] <yakk> suddently there's a bunch of css classes on ever element to describe a fairly simple and common concept
[01:10:59] <yakk> since there's no namespacing its hard for me as someone who is writing to content to keep track of what I'm doing
[01:11:19] <yakk> (I've been trying to write a web page this afternoon that is marked up fully)
[01:16:25] <KevinMarks> no, thats if you ahve a complex concept
[01:16:29] <tantek> not sure why you need xfolk and hreview for a blogroll
[01:16:55] <KevinMarks> a blogroll is just an <ol> of <li><a href="blog url">blog name</a></li>
[01:17:08] <tantek> yakk, dependence on namespaces is a myth sold by the folks that *either* *want* to make things complex, *or* they want lots of little data silos that don't cooperate/communicate
[01:17:26] <yakk> tantek, I find namespaces make things less confusing
[01:17:28] <tantek> the internet has worked *just fine* for many years with no namespaces on essential dataformats and protocols
[01:17:31] <yakk> (as a user)
[01:17:44] <tantek> yakk, you're the first i've heard that from
[01:17:53] <tantek> typical users/web designers *hate* namespaces
[01:18:14] <KevinMarks> we eschew them deiberately to make us re-use the same names for the same concepts
[01:18:26] <tantek> and most developers/parsers don't understand them either, as they use regexes etc. to parse them rather than actual compliant namespace parsers
[01:18:34] <tantek> namespaces = babel
[01:18:43] <tantek> babel = confusion
[01:19:35] <yakk> okay
[01:19:55] <tantek> the point is to keep the overall vocabulary as small as possible
[01:19:57] <yakk> but as a user reading or writing: <li class="vcard"><a class="fn url" href="http://starfuck.livejournal.com/" rel="friend">Sharon Senser</a></li>
[01:20:08] <yakk> I need to go to the specs to work out where the "url" class belongs
[01:20:12] <tantek> not to invent new ways of growing independent vocabularies which just add more confusion for everyone
[01:20:16] <yakk> what it belongs to
[01:22:17] <KevinMarks> right, you need to do that once
[01:22:30] <KevinMarks> then all your tool users get the benefit
[01:24:16] <kingryan> alright, I'm out, c-ya guys later
[01:24:17] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
[01:25:38] <factoryjoe> i dunno about all this -- i mean, yakk do you really see myspacers writing FOAF and OPML?
[01:26:04] <factoryjoe> in terms of implementable i remember when i used to see out html design patterns for my webpages when i was on AOL (yeah, back in '96)
[01:26:21] <factoryjoe> so if i found microformats and they said "link to your friends like this" i would do it
[01:26:35] <factoryjoe> i highly doubt that myspace will let you output foaf in your blog posts
[01:26:39] <factoryjoe> and even if you could
[01:26:44] <factoryjoe> no browser could read it inline
[01:27:13] <yakk> factoryjoe, I don't think anyone will write foaf, but there are plenty of tools to create and consume foaf
[01:27:46] <yakk> factoryjoe, and no browser needs to read it inline - there are plenty of web applications and desktop applications to visualize it (or there were when I looked a couple of years ago)
[01:27:58] <yakk> factoryjoe, plus a variety of services already publish foaf
[01:28:03] <factoryjoe> ok ok
[01:28:06] <factoryjoe> let's try this
[01:28:11] <yakk> plus
[01:28:14] <factoryjoe> because i feel like we're talking about hot air (on both sides)
[01:28:17] <yakk> foaf is trivial for *me* to parse :)
[01:28:24] <yakk> and I'm lazy :)
[01:28:35] <factoryjoe> yakk: why don't you document the "plenty of web applications and desktop applications" that support your argument on the MF wiki
[01:28:44] <factoryjoe> and we can do a quantitative study
[01:28:50] <factoryjoe> i know you're lazy
[01:28:52] <factoryjoe> :P
[01:29:14] <yakk> factoryjoe, I think there's just different interpretation of "easy to use" and "simple"
[01:29:31] <tantek> yakk, way more apps support vCard (and thus hCard) than FOAF
[01:29:35] <tantek> that battle is over
[01:29:41] <tantek> on that note
[01:29:43] <factoryjoe> so MFs are trivial for me, as an html nut, to write
[01:29:47] <factoryjoe> i have no idea how to parse
[01:29:48] * tantek has to get going
[01:29:51] <factoryjoe> i leave that to markp
[01:29:52] <yakk> tantek, hCard != vCard
[01:29:53] <factoryjoe> ;)
[01:30:04] <KevinMarks> hCard => vCard
[01:30:06] <factoryjoe> cya tantek
[01:30:13] <yakk> tantek, later dude
[01:30:13] <factoryjoe> thanks for your participation
[01:30:18] <KevinMarks> (thats implies)
[01:30:19] <yakk> tantek, this discussion needs more beer in it
[01:30:43] <yakk> factoryjoe, before you say how trivial MFs are, can you fix the hcards on the flock about page?
[01:31:22] <factoryjoe> yes
[01:31:24] <factoryjoe> will do that now
[01:31:35] <factoryjoe> you are right
[01:31:43] <factoryjoe> w/o a validator, it was challenging to get it right
[01:31:47] <yakk> factoryjoe, microformats are easy to screw up and hard to pick up on
[01:31:47] <factoryjoe> but look at the implementation
[01:31:57] <factoryjoe> our about page isn't trivial CSS
[01:32:13] <yakk> factoryjoe, I admit it took a lot of re-reading of the spec to work out for sure that our hcard was incorrect
[01:32:20] <factoryjoe> yes
[01:32:21] <factoryjoe> well
[01:32:24] <factoryjoe> i'll give you this
[01:32:29] <factoryjoe> the MF wiki needs an overhaul
[01:32:36] <factoryjoe> because it makes very little sense to me as it is
[01:32:42] <factoryjoe> it could be *much* easier
[01:32:45] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
[01:32:47] <factoryjoe> since the concept is actually quite basic
[01:33:04] <factoryjoe> but the implementation on the wiki makes it appear more technical than it needs be for people just getting into it
[01:33:12] <factoryjoe> where's the foaf spec, ooc?
[01:33:29] <yakk> http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/
[01:33:57] <yakk> I don't think foaf is that good
[01:34:24] <yakk> rdf is kinda like perl
[01:34:33] <yakk> but microformats feel kinda like visual basic :(
[01:34:52] <yakk> trivial things are simple, complex things are too hard
[01:34:57] <yakk> but that could just be me
[01:35:01] <yakk> I'm going to keep hacking
[01:35:02] <factoryjoe> well
[01:35:05] <factoryjoe> ok
[01:35:11] <factoryjoe> i think tails is a decent extension to start with
[01:35:13] <factoryjoe> you have to realize
[01:35:19] <factoryjoe> MFs are literally just over a year old
[01:35:21] <yakk> factoryjoe, does it install in flock?
[01:35:26] <factoryjoe> and they lack many tools/examples
[01:35:31] <factoryjoe> yakk: not yet
[01:35:35] <factoryjoe> but i could convert it
[01:35:35] <yakk> factoryjoe, or do you have it installed on your machine?
[01:35:43] <yakk> I'm interested in the user experience
[01:35:45] <factoryjoe> i was trying to hack it
[01:35:47] <factoryjoe> HAHAHAAH
[01:36:19] <yakk> since simply knowing that particular regions of html represent a business card doesn't seem to be all that interesting
[01:36:21] <yakk> (as a user)
[01:36:37] <factoryjoe> it's not
[01:36:40] <factoryjoe> that's truew
[01:36:42] <factoryjoe> true
[01:36:53] <factoryjoe> it's what lucene + extensions can do that's interesting
[01:37:07] <yakk> see, I'm not convinced
[01:37:07] <factoryjoe> giving a store of random information to extension developers is interesting
[01:37:17] <factoryjoe> especially when it's about people, tags, events and the like
[01:37:20] <factoryjoe> that's fine
[01:37:21] <yakk> so we index all the vcards you come across
[01:37:26] <factoryjoe> right
[01:37:29] <factoryjoe> for example
[01:37:32] <factoryjoe> on flickr
[01:37:36] <factoryjoe> you go to your contacts page
[01:37:44] <yakk> when I search for "Ian McKellar" what do I get?
[01:37:45] <factoryjoe> every hcard gets added to your people index
[01:37:52] <factoryjoe> you get an ian mckeller page
[01:37:54] <yakk> do I have a bunch of different vcards?
[01:38:00] <factoryjoe> you could merge them
[01:38:10] <factoryjoe> using rel=me we can infer what pages are yours
[01:38:19] <factoryjoe> and actually pick up feeds from all those sites
[01:38:33] <factoryjoe> and aggregate them without you doing a damn thing except surfing the web
[01:38:37] <yakk> because there's one on flock.com/about, one on ian.mckellar.org, one on flickr, one on livejournal, an hcard+xfn on all of my friends' livejournal pages, etc?
[01:38:40] <factoryjoe> NO ACTION on your part as a user
[01:38:47] <factoryjoe> right
[01:39:00] <factoryjoe> so on ian.mckellar.org you link to your flickr photos page
[01:39:05] <factoryjoe> and you use rel=me
[01:39:12] <factoryjoe> and i proposed doing rel="me photos"
[01:39:16] <factoryjoe> and rel="me blog"
[01:39:27] <factoryjoe> tantek is against this, but for now it solves one of your complaints
[01:39:38] <yakk> so I can rel="me" for a chris messina hcard and put whatever I want about you
[01:39:56] <yakk> then anyone who visits my page gets their chris hcard polluted?
[01:40:14] <yakk> 1-800-BLOW-ME or whatever :)
[01:40:28] <yakk> anyway
[01:40:29] <yakk> gotta run
[01:40:42] <yakk> I will experiment more and see what I can make
[01:40:52] <factoryjoe> yes
[01:40:55] <factoryjoe> you can do that
[01:40:57] <factoryjoe> at the same time
[01:41:02] <pnhChris> that would be up to the consuming application.. if it auto grabs the date + auto merges it, then yes, that could happen
[01:41:10] <factoryjoe> when you have one-to-one reciprocity, we know that both are related
[01:41:16] <pnhChris> s/date/data
[01:41:24] <factoryjoe> i.e. you link from flickr to ian.mckellar.org with rel=me
[01:41:31] <yakk> I'm not sure we can build useful applications
[01:41:33] <yakk> but thats just me
[01:41:36] <yakk> anyhoo
[01:41:37] <yakk> gotta go
[01:41:37] <factoryjoe> understood
[01:41:40] <factoryjoe> cya
[01:50:06] <factoryjoe> ok, fixed the MFs on flock.com/about (will show up in 10 minutes)
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[02:28:38] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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[02:29:26] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[02:30:28] <KevinMarks> yakk: rel="me" should only be accepted if bidirectional
[02:30:31] <KevinMarks> re-read
[02:32:14] <factoryjoe> he left
[02:42:33] <tantek> greetings
[02:42:45] <tantek> a bunch of us are at Oodle's offices discussing hListing
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[03:18:09] <factoryjoe> oh right
[03:18:12] <factoryjoe> heh cool
[03:18:19] <factoryjoe> i'll lurk
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[04:46:32] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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[05:23:10] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[05:57:11] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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[06:08:48] <tantek> how are folks this evening?
[06:08:57] <tantek> the hListing discussion was very interesting
[06:09:26] <tantek> one big issue that arose was the question of, is an "item type" actually necessary?
[06:09:31] <tantek> (applies to hReview IMHO as much as hListing)
[06:10:45] <tantek> in that, certainly for hReview, one can infer, IF the "item" is also an hCard ("vcard"), then the review is about a person or organization (depending on the hCard), and IF the "item" is rather also an hCalendar event ("vevent"), then the review is about an event.
[06:11:33] <tantek> with those three values gone, suddenly the earlier justification for the "item type" field are gone, that is, that the item type was there to help expand the number of fields that applied to the item info.
[06:12:01] <tantek> if we instead explicitly allow an hCard OR and hCalendar event to be a part of the item, and then infer the item type accordingly, perhaps that is good enough
[06:12:30] <tantek> this default behavior (when lacking an explicit item type) seems quite reasonable to me, and worth putting into hReview 0.3
[06:12:37] <tantek> any thoughts folks?
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[06:23:34] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[07:33:20] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
[07:41:15] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=5083 * Jesse * (+574) Issues -
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[08:02:56] <mfbot> [[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5084 * Tantek * (+2890) hReview 0.3
[08:06:54] <tantek> ok folks, for those of you still up, hReview 0.3 has been drafted, take a look!
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[08:21:03] <mfbot> [[hatom-hints]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-hints * DavidJanes * (+804)
[08:21:14] <mfbot> [[hatom-hints]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-hints&diff=0&oldid=5085 * DavidJanes * (+1) See Also -
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[08:22:10] <mfbot> [[hatom-hints]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-hints&diff=0&oldid=5086 * DavidJanes * (+3675) hAtom Hints -
[08:22:53] <tantek> ah good stuff, David Janes is applying resolutions/edits from the hAtom finalization meeting
[08:22:59] <tantek> hAtom 0.1 coming right up!
[08:28:41] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5087 * DavidJanes * (-3604)
[08:30:06] <_fil_> good :)
[08:31:12] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5088 * DavidJanes * (-44) Feed -
[08:32:08] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5089 * DavidJanes * (-171) Entry -
[08:32:24] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal&diff=0&oldid=5090 * Tantek * (-101) remove "location" and add optional geo and adr to item info
[08:33:55] <mfbot> [[hatom-hints]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-hints&diff=0&oldid=5091 * DavidJanes * (+193) Schema Notes -
[08:34:06] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5092 * DavidJanes * (-262) Feed -
[08:36:07] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5093 * DavidJanes * (+88) Feed -
[08:37:03] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5094 * DavidJanes * (-60) Entry -
[08:37:44] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5095 * DavidJanes * (+11) Entry Title -
[08:38:05] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5096 * DavidJanes * (+6) Entry Content -
[08:38:16] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5097 * DavidJanes * (+6) Entry Summary -
[08:39:22] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5098 * DavidJanes * (+2) Entry Permalink -
[08:39:58] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5099 * DavidJanes * (-71) Entry Summary -
[08:40:19] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5100 * DavidJanes * (-71) Entry Content -
[08:40:41] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5101 * DavidJanes * (-43) Entry Permalink -
[08:41:46] <mfbot> [[hatom-hints]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-hints&diff=0&oldid=5102 * DavidJanes * (+452) Element notes -
[08:42:27] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5103 * DavidJanes * (-499) Entry Permalink -
[08:44:34] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5104 * DavidJanes * (-120) Entry Permalink -
[08:45:15] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5105 * DavidJanes * (-127) Disambiguation -
[08:45:41] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5106 * DavidJanes * (-125) Entry Updated -
[08:45:52] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5107 * DavidJanes * (-2) Entry Published -
[08:47:08] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5108 * DavidJanes * (+343) XMDP Profile -
[08:47:59] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5109 * DavidJanes * (-96) Rules and Definitions -
[08:48:15] <mfbot> [[hlisting-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-feedback&diff=0&oldid=5110 * Tantek * (+127) can we eliminate the item type field?
[08:48:21] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5111 * DavidJanes * (+12) Field Details -
[08:49:07] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5112 * DavidJanes * (-2) Field and Element Details -
[09:02:03] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5113 * DavidJanes * (+733) Schema -
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[09:04:29] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5114 * Tantek * (-27)
[09:06:15] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5115 * Tantek * (+27)
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[09:06:36] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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[11:21:46] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[13:44:45] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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[13:49:56] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
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[14:18:40] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5116 * DavidJanes * (+58) Field and Element Details -
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[14:23:10] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
[14:23:11] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5117 * DavidJanes * (-2) Field and Element Details -
[14:28:23] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5118 * DavidJanes * (-732) Entry Updated -
[14:31:59] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5119 * DavidJanes * (+251) Entry -
[14:32:25] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5120 * DavidJanes * (+8) Entry Updated -
[14:32:41] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5121 * DavidJanes * (+69) Entry Published -
[14:33:17] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5122 * DavidJanes * (+2) Entry Content -
[14:33:48] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5123 * DavidJanes * (+48) Entry Updated -
[14:34:14] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5124 * DavidJanes * (-478) Entry Published -
[14:41:00] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5125 * DavidJanes * (-10) Entry Author -
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[14:51:11] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5126 * DavidJanes * (-16) Entry Permalink -
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[14:58:39] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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[15:04:15] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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[15:05:58] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5127 * DavidJanes * (+1) See Also -
[15:06:44] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5128 * DavidJanes * (-151) Entry Content -
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[15:31:30] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[16:13:28] * pnhChris looks at the hatom updates
[16:13:52] <pnhChris> updated is required, but published is not? i thought it was the other way around
[16:15:19] <pnhChris> hmm... ok.. updated is implied from published, and if published isn't there updated must be valued
[16:15:20] <markp> from rfc 4287: "atom:entry elements MUST contain exactly one atom:updated element."
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[16:15:46] * markp is confused by hatom
[16:15:55] <markp> are we mapping atom to xhtml, or not?
[16:15:58] <pnhChris> but wow. .that's a real odd way of stating thigns in a shorted list of elements /schema
[16:16:27] <pnhChris> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema
[16:20:16] <pnhChris> markp: looks like its all parser funny business
[16:35:18] <pnhChris> also, i was under the impression that at one point Chris would be an acceptable shorthand... without the need to dummy up a vcard... is that out now
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[16:41:30] <pnhChris> woohoo http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=180206472&cid=RSSfeed_IWK_News
[16:41:49] * pnhChris gets out his amex
[16:44:07] <_fil_> btw I've patented hAtom
[16:44:19] <_fil_> sorry i didn't get timle to tell you
[16:44:36] <_fil_> keep up the good work :)
[16:44:42] <_fil_> $-)
[16:50:36] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit ()
[16:54:55] * dglazkov patented CMS once
[16:56:54] * Atamido patents HTML/
[16:56:56] * izo_ (n=izo@efas.allhost.fupl.asso.fr) Quit ()
[16:57:39] * Atamido patents love.
[16:57:46] <Atamido> Muahahaha!
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[17:01:40] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[17:01:50] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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[17:06:02] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
[17:16:55] * Atamido wonders if limbo_ and tantek are the same person.
[17:18:07] <_fil_> You have to know that I own Atamido as a trademark
[17:18:18] <_fil_> please refrain from using this name in the future
[17:18:29] * Atamido has proof of prior art.
[17:19:26] <Atamido> Weird, the 3rd result for "Atamido" on Google is microformats.org/wiki/User:Atamido
[17:19:27] <_fil_> see you in the court room
[17:19:47] * _fil_ time to get on the train, bye
[17:20:07] <dglazkov> in the meantime, Atamido has to release a special build of self, with a disclaimer pop up box
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[17:20:26] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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[17:21:59] <tantek> ah, the channel is punchy this morning
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[17:34:05] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
[17:34:19] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=5129 * Tantek * (+78) request: hReview support in Ecto
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[18:00:11] <mfbot> [[xoxo-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5130 * Tantek * (+528)
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[18:48:58] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=5131 * Steve Ganz * (+61)
[18:52:29] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5132 * Steve Ganz * (+38) Drafts - Adding hResume
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[19:01:51] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5133 * Steve Ganz * (-2) Drafts -
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[19:51:06] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[19:58:41] <Atamido> That is the second time I have seen someone use the term "punchy" this month.
[20:04:26] <pnhChris> asked earlier today with no response... re: hatom ... i was under the impression that at one point Chris would be an acceptable shorthand... without the need to dummy up a vcard... is that out now
[20:05:31] * Atamido has no idea.
[20:06:00] <Atamido> Would Chris work?
[20:07:15] * pnhChris looks around the room
[20:07:29] * pnhChris tugs at tantek's pant leg
[20:10:35] <Atamido> Is there an "Implied Author Optimization"?
[20:11:06] <KevinMarks> check what the minimal hcard is
[20:11:25] <KevinMarks> I think it needs 2 containers
[20:11:50] <pnhChris> right
[20:11:59] <KevinMarks> Chris
[20:12:28] <pnhChris> but for some reason i was thinking that hatom fell back in the case of no formal vcard there
[20:14:31] <pnhChris> like the second transformation here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-examples
[20:14:54] <pnhChris> but i know thats old.. and i can't seem to find any current language that supports that
[20:15:22] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[20:17:15] <Atamido> Fallback should be appropriate.
[20:17:51] <hober> I think the particulars of how the fallback works were agreed to on Tuesday, during the f2f, and I don't remember the details.
[20:18:27] <Atamido> This Tuesday?
[20:18:37] <hober> yes, at mashup camp
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[20:18:47] <Atamido> Strange, I don't remember this week having a Tuesday.
[20:18:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
[20:19:10] <pnhChris> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom was updated since then.. but i don't know if the update is done.. or reviewed
[20:19:23] <tantek> greetings
[20:19:29] <tantek> yes, hAtom is looking MUCH better!
[20:19:29] <hober> yo
[20:19:31] <pnhChris> hita
[20:19:34] <pnhChris> hiya
[20:19:43] <tantek> hi chris and hober
[20:19:56] <pnhChris> wanna read the logs and see the author q have
[20:20:25] <hober> pnhChris: I think your question is answered here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Author
[20:20:37] <pnhChris> it might be me not piecing together the wiki in the right way, or it may be achange
[20:20:41] <hober> that's where the author fallback stuff is documented
[20:20:46] <pnhChris> hober: that's what i'm looking at
[20:20:57] <pnhChris> i don't see the constructed used in that older example fitting into that
[20:21:18] <pnhChris> construction*
[20:22:28] <pnhChris> (i also don't see <p class="author vcard" fitting into that phrasing used)
[20:22:53] <pnhChris> ... outside of the entry that is
[20:23:21] <KevinMarks> <address class="author vcard"> is preferred
[20:23:30] <pnhChris> i know
[20:23:53] <pnhChris> but the phasing used for the fallback doesn't read like it allows for anything else
[20:24:01] <pnhChris> if the Entry Author is missing
[20:24:01] <pnhChris> * find the Nearest In Parent <address> element with class name author
[20:24:01] <pnhChris> * otherwise the page is invalid hAtom
[20:26:44] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5134 * Tantek * (+443) Field details -
[20:27:48] <tantek> chris, i think that section needs a few more details
[20:28:02] <tantek> see hReview "reviewer" field for comparison
[20:29:33] * pnhChris hates wikis sometimes
[20:30:08] <tantek> chris, see above diff from mfbot - it's in that area.
[20:31:19] <pnhChris> hmm
[20:31:51] <pnhChris> on the second point its address that could be a vcard... and p="author vcard", say in the footer, would never get picked up?
[20:32:01] * pnhChris scratches his head
[20:32:37] <pnhChris> i may have to stick to the little microformats :P
[20:36:45] <pnhChris> i'll have to read these pages top to bottom again later... i'm still not coming up with a straight answer reading in just parts
[20:36:56] * Atamido wishes he had something to add to the hReview ratings system.
[20:39:14] <pnhChris> thigns like hreview ' Field details - reviewer aren't reading the same way the 'changes' list does
[20:40:36] <Atamido> "[uf-discuss] Microformats to interlink desparate services" <-- I thought this was for online dating services when I first read the subject. :-\
[20:49:37] <dglazkov> hey you two in the corner, break it up! this is a proper establishment
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[21:44:32] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5135 * Tantek * (+154) Examples -
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[21:49:08] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5136 * Tantek * (+381) added links to hReview creator where people look to get started writing reviews.
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[21:59:28] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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[22:09:20] <mfbot> [[hreview-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-feedback&diff=0&oldid=5137 * Mark Nottingham * (+288)
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[22:17:16] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5138 * PigsOTWing * (+34) clarifications
[22:18:47] <mfbot> [[hreview-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-issues&diff=0&oldid=5139 * PigsOTWing * (+89) Ratings
[22:21:43] <mfbot> [[hreview-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-issues&diff=0&oldid=5140 * PigsOTWing * (+24) Ratings - Zero should be allowed.
[22:22:14] <mfbot> [[hreview-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-issues&diff=0&oldid=5141 * PigsOTWing * (+34) Ratings - attrbution
[22:22:26] <mfbot> [[hreview-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-issues&diff=0&oldid=5142 * PigsOTWing * (+1) Ratings -
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[22:30:46] <Hixie> do you guys hae any opinions on a <date> or <time> eleemnt in HTML? (or both?)
[22:30:56] <yakk> oh my god I hate xml
[22:31:24] <yakk> hey Hixie
[22:31:37] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=5143 * Tantek * (-39) wrote hReview 0.3, need to write profile
[22:32:11] <tantek> Hixie, IMHO, there is no need for both
[22:32:55] <tantek> it's clear that date and time information is very much published (and marked up) all over the web
[22:33:06] <hober> What would it contain? free-form text? <year>, <month>, etc.?
[22:33:25] * tantek points Hixie to the discussions regarding a <datetime> element during the 2004 CSS WG meeting in Mountain View.
[22:33:41] <hober> I could see a datetime element along the lines of the abbr dt{start,end} stuff
[22:33:44] <Hixie> tantek: lots of stuff is published, calendars, reviews, phone details, etc, doesn't stop people wanting to mark them up
[22:34:05] <Hixie> hober: it wouldn't have <month>-like elements, certainly
[22:34:09] <tantek> I believe the brainstormed conclusion was something like <datetime value="ISO8601">human readable date</datetime>
[22:34:14] <Hixie> hey yakk
[22:34:27] <tantek> and we also had corresponding thoughts on CSS date-time styling, for locale specific dates
[22:34:58] <Hixie> yup, i recall
[22:35:26] <Hixie> requiring an eight-character element name for this seems excessive though
[22:35:37] <tantek> so that someone in a different locale could specify something like datetime { content: date-time(attr(value),MM/DD/YYYY) } or something
[22:35:42] <tantek> Hixie yeah
[22:35:48] <tantek> i think i suggested <t>
[22:35:55] <yakk> tantek, that would be sexyt
[22:36:05] <tantek> since "t" is commonly used for time in physics discussions
[22:36:14] <tantek> so there is precedent for the name
[22:36:17] <hober> <t> reminds me of xml2rfc
[22:36:19] <Hixie> hmm, that would work
[22:36:27] <Hixie> <t>2005-12-12</t>
[22:36:33] <tantek> yep
[22:36:48] <tantek> with optional value attribute of type ISO8601
[22:36:53] <tantek> er, W3C-DATETIME
[22:36:57] <tantek> :)
[22:36:57] <pnhChris> it it a time stamp or a time value (elapsed for example) or ... ?
[22:37:02] <tantek> stamp
[22:37:04] <tantek> absolute
[22:37:23] <Hixie> more people use the <t> element on the web than use the <xmp> element, according to my study
[22:37:33] <tantek> what does the <t> element do today?
[22:37:36] <tantek> i didn't think it existed
[22:37:40] <Hixie> it doesn't
[22:37:43] <tantek> um
[22:37:44] <Hixie> it does nothing, like
[22:37:54] <Hixie> but this means the default rendering would have to be nothing as well
[22:38:00] <Hixie> or we'd break all these pages
[22:38:08] <tantek> well, the default rendering would be the same as span
[22:38:16] <Hixie> yeah
[22:38:19] <tantek> rather than "nothing"
[22:38:25] <Hixie> that's what i mean by nothing
[22:38:36] <Hixie> i was thinking of defaulting it to a clever rendering behaviour, but we can't do that with <t>
[22:38:42] * tantek has to remind himself to not slip back into pedantic mode when Hixie is around
[22:38:51] <Hixie> heh
[22:39:05] <pnhChris> not to play devils advocate, but is the physics "t" usage talking about a measurement of time or a stamp?
[22:39:16] <Hixie> pnhChris: both
[22:39:19] <Hixie> usually a stamp
[22:39:24] <Hixie> t=5s
[22:39:25] <Hixie> etc
[22:40:19] <Hixie> <time> isn't used much at all
[22:40:26] <Hixie> <datetime> isn't even on my top1000 list
[22:40:28] <pnhChris> but in the usage here you wouldn't see <t>5s</t>
[22:40:32] <Hixie> <date> is more popural than <t>
[22:41:02] <Hixie> pnhChris: by t=5s people mean "at time 5s", where the time scale is defined as having an origin at a convenient place
[22:41:16] <limbo_> so how is <t>16:20</t> different from 16:20 ?
[22:41:20] <Hixie> pnhChris: much like western humans often use midnight on 0000-01-01 as t=0
[22:41:29] <pnhChris> aye
[22:41:35] <Hixie> limbo_: the first would be a time, the second is nothing in particular
[22:42:00] <limbo_> so it's purely a semantic differnece?
[22:42:33] <limbo_> cause in this case, i think some formatting should be required.
[22:42:48] <limbo_> or at least something like <abbr title="foo">
[22:44:16] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
[22:45:58] * pnhChris has to learn to pick words more carefully around you people
[22:46:01] <pnhChris> :P
[22:46:34] <pnhChris> what wouldn't you expect to be appropriately marked up via <t> or whatever this new element is
[22:47:07] <Hixie> ?
[22:47:15] <limbo_> <t>long time</t> no see...
[22:47:15] <tantek> chris, see above remark about being pedanticc
[22:47:44] * tantek notes that ISO8601 covers absolute times as well as durations
[22:48:10] <tantek> hixie, as far as naming, there is also the precedent of the "datetime" attribute on <ins> and <del>
[22:48:29] <tantek> thus that is a logical name for an element that represents the same type of information
[22:48:30] <Hixie> hah
[22:48:46] * tantek sticks to his principles of least invention.
[22:49:01] <Hixie> datetime= is so rarely used that it doesn't even appear in the top 1000 most-used attributes list
[22:49:05] <tantek> or is it maximum re-use? one or the other (perhaps both)
[22:49:28] <limbo_> do more with less.
[22:49:30] <tantek> Hixie, you infer schema/types from usage, and then pick/re-use names from established standards
[22:49:34] <Hixie> people use <ie:homepage id=""> more often than <ins datetime="">
[22:49:38] <limbo_> would be a superset.
[22:49:42] <Hixie> but yeah
[22:49:46] * tantek points Hixie to http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles
[22:49:48] <Hixie> <datetime> would be fine if it wasn't so long
[22:49:59] <tantek> too bad <dt> is taken :p
[22:50:04] <Hixie> indeed
[22:50:39] <hober> the RFC 3339 subset of ISO 8601 includes stamps and durations
[22:50:51] <hober> I'd lean toward saying t@value can be any RFC 3339 value
[22:51:02] <tantek> so anyway Hixie, those are my two recommendations. <datetime> based on "datetime" attribute from <ins> and <del>, or <t> based on t = time from physics conventions and because it is a nice and short element name, and besides what else would/should <t> stand for?
[22:51:05] <pnhChris> my other concern is more that semantically time doesn't tell you a ton of information it be rather like <number> element...
[22:51:13] <tantek> hober, RFC3339 is too restrictive for common use
[22:51:19] <tantek> it requires seconds precision
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[22:51:35] <Hixie> yeah <t> and <datetime> are the only ones that really make sense, i agree
[22:51:48] <tantek> whereas in "real world" usage people like to represent a specific year, a month, a day, an hour etc.
[22:51:52] <Hixie> especially if we don't want to have two elements (one for dates, one for times), which i agree would be bad
[22:51:54] <tantek> RFC3339 doesn't permit that
[22:51:57] <tantek> whereas ISO8601 does
[22:52:06] <tantek> W3C-DATETIME permits some, but not enough
[22:52:16] <Hixie> none of those three are any good, sadly
[22:52:22] <Hixie> since none of them define parsing error handling
[22:52:39] * tantek senses Hixie about to propose another profile of ISO8601
[22:52:42] <Hixie> but the common language of all three is what we'd use here
[22:52:43] * pnhChris scrolls up and re-reads
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[22:53:09] <Hixie> tantek: well, it certainly wouldn't be a new format altogether ;-)
[22:54:09] <pnhChris> is the reference to ISO8601 implied, or would that have to be explicitly stated via an additional attribute?
[22:54:35] <Hixie> there would be a defined way to parse the data, which would not be dependent on an attribute
[22:54:50] * pnhChris poo poos the element
[22:55:07] <hober> tantek: good point (re: RFC 3339 mandating seconds etc.). I'd imagine a 3339-like profile with more things optional
[22:55:31] <tantek> Hixie, I think having it represent *both* a human readable datetime and ISO8601 datetime is essential
[22:55:38] <tantek> or at least having the element have that capability
[22:55:51] * pnhChris likes his 'blah days ago'
[22:55:51] <tantek> two forms
[22:55:53] <Hixie> yeah, you'd have an attribute to represent the data
[22:55:59] <tantek> <t>ISO8601</t>
[22:56:01] <pnhChris> ah
[22:56:01] <tantek> or
[22:56:09] <pnhChris> no
[22:56:11] <tantek> <t value="ISO8601">human readable date time</t>
[22:56:14] <Hixie> right
[22:56:20] <tantek> either way, you can validate it
[22:56:26] <Hixie> the problem with ISO8601 is that it's so western-centric
[22:56:26] * pnhChris still doesn't like it
[22:56:31] <tantek> and either way, *an* ISO8601 datetime is necessary
[22:56:40] <hober> Sounds just like mf's dt{start,end}, tantek :)
[22:56:43] <tantek> the human readable datetime is optional
[22:56:43] <pnhChris> to a machine it is
[22:56:50] <pnhChris> to humans it isn't
[22:56:59] <pnhChris> 2 days ago on a wb
[22:57:02] <pnhChris> er..
[22:57:03] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=5144 * RyanKing * (+3) Job Titles - fixed language about multiple job titles
[22:57:04] <Hixie> pnhChris: CSS will have a way to render ISO8601 as whateer
[22:57:07] <tantek> re: western-centric
[22:57:17] * tantek reminds Hixie what "ISO" stands for.
[22:57:30] <pnhChris> 2 days ago on a web page is as good as last tues is as good as 2/21
[22:57:42] <tantek> hey folks, quick question about hReview
[22:57:42] <Hixie> exactly
[22:57:46] <Hixie> all three are useless :-)
[22:57:53] <pnhChris> to who?
[22:57:54] <edsu> Western^wInternational Standards Organization
[22:58:01] <tantek> I forgot that we want to make "dtreviewed" optional as well
[22:58:03] <Hixie> tantek: and "W3C" stands for something too, but...
[22:58:14] <pnhChris> ... is as good as 02/21/2006
[22:58:15] <tantek> and have it be able to "inherit" from the context if missing
[22:58:21] <pnhChris> to someone reading my blog
[22:58:23] <tantek> (per feedback from Mark Nottingham)
[22:58:25] * limbo_ (n=me@h-67-103-44-6.snfccasy.covad.net) Quit ()
[22:58:30] <Hixie> pnhChris: depends when they read it
[22:58:54] <pnhChris> when they read it , the context, if its dynamically generated
[22:58:57] <tantek> Hixie, W3C just stands for W3 + Consortium, where W3, when expanded, was the name of the first web browser implementation coded by TBL
[22:58:59] <Hixie> pnhChris: this is about getting the computer to recognise the date so it can use that information, e.g. so that google can know that your page is about 2006-02-21
[22:59:01] <kingryan> tantek, yes, optional
[22:59:16] <Hixie> tantek: yeah, and yet, w3c is doing stuff that has nothing to do with any of that
[22:59:30] <Hixie> tantek: just cos the organisation is the Iso, doesn't mean their Ss are I.
[22:59:58] * tantek wonders how many ISO standards are adopted in non-western countries.
[23:00:08] <pnhChris> Hixie: yes, and in that respect i couldn't really care about it making it into html
[23:00:14] <Hixie> if i had known where that sentence was going when i started it, i would have said "just cos the O is the Iso, doesn't mean their Ss are I"
[23:00:17] * bear_mtg is now known as bear
[23:00:45] <pnhChris> it is an element that really doesn't have the same meaning as one i'd use. most of the time
[23:00:45] <Hixie> pnhChris: ?
[23:00:51] <edsu> how funny i never realized ISO stood for International Organization for Standardization
[23:01:38] <edsu> well it's funny perhaps in more than one way...
[23:02:00] <pnhChris> .. or rahter.. the definition isn't broad enough to allow me to use it without the hinderance of generating a machine readable date
[23:02:03] <Hixie> edsu: a lot of french-related acronyms are like that. another is UTC.
[23:02:37] <Hixie> pnhChris: tags are entirely for machines, using a tag without making it useful to machines is a waste of time.
[23:04:35] <pnhChris> then its a waste of time
[23:05:04] <Hixie> if making things useful to machines is not your intention, you may be in the wrong channel :-)
[23:05:24] <pnhChris> but in a number of cases I already do things like loutput a datetime in an informal way.. either in the written word or programatically
[23:06:24] <pnhChris> especially in the written word case, though I am dealing with a legitimate date (context will come from elsewhere) your tag doesn't let me do that without getting into hidden machine readable format mumbo jumbo
[23:06:39] <Hixie> let you do what?
[23:06:43] <pnhChris> use it
[23:06:46] <pnhChris> properly
[23:07:23] <Hixie> that's like saying that you can't use the tag properly without having to split your text up into formal paragraphs.
[23:07:34] <pnhChris> blog post <t>02/ 26/2006T12:00Z</t>: <t>2/23/2006</t> I went to see a movie
[23:07:37] <Hixie> elements aren't there to be used for the sake of it
[23:07:45] <pnhChris> blog post <t>02/ 26/2006T12:00Z</t>: <t>3 days ago</t> I went to see a movie
[23:07:52] <pnhChris> sematically whats different between those two?
[23:08:03] <pnhChris> what is someone liekly to write?
[23:08:19] <Hixie> depends on how the spec is written
[23:08:23] <Hixie> probably, both are invalid
[23:08:36] <pnhChris> fine
[23:08:45] <Hixie> (or all four, rather)
[23:09:18] * pnhChris goes to make dinner
[23:09:28] * Hixie is very confused as to pnhChris's argument
[23:09:34] <pnhChris> i'll let my utter confusion over the use of this tag be
[23:09:50] <pnhChris> show me a vaild use of <t>
[23:10:19] <Hixie> the dates on my blog are currently marked up as:
[23:10:20] <Hixie> <a href="?start=1140574046&count=1" rel="bookmark">2006-02-22 02:07 UTC</a>
[23:10:24] * tantek tries to figure out a way to translate between Hixie and pnhChris
[23:10:24] <pnhChris> maybe we're just talking past each other (or letting spaces or other minor syntax issues get in between us)
[23:10:28] <Hixie> ...and i use JS to make it useful
[23:10:38] * kingryan can't keep up with convo
[23:10:38] <Hixie> it would be more helpful if i could writeA:
[23:10:52] <Hixie> <a href="?start=1140574046&count=1" rel="bookmark"><t>2006-02-22 02:07 UTC</t></a>
[23:10:56] * tantek is updating hReview to make dtreviewed optional and inherit from context...
[23:11:00] <Hixie> ...and have CSS render the date in a useful way
[23:11:15] <pnhChris> ok
[23:11:22] <pnhChris> rewind to my example
[23:11:31] <tantek> Hixie, you're exactly at the point of analysis of this now that I think I was at at that 2004 CSS WG meeting at Mountain View.
[23:11:56] <pnhChris> blog post <t>2006-02-25 02:07 UTC</t>: <t>2006-02-22 02:07 UTC</t> I went to see a movie
[23:12:00] <pnhChris> valid usage
[23:12:04] <pnhChris> no?
[23:12:15] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5145 * Tantek * (+1366) typos/edits
[23:12:16] <Hixie> tantek: i was at that meeting and took part in that discussion, that discussion is what caused me to add these elements to the list of tags i had to look at for HTML5, and i just got to that point in my list. It's all linked. :-)
[23:12:32] <Hixie> pnhChris: valid, but seems a bit silly
[23:12:38] <pnhChris> ok
[23:12:42] <tantek> Hixie, *excellent* (taps fingers)
[23:12:52] <Hixie> pnhChris: why not write "<t>2006-02-25 02:07 UTC</t>: three days ago, I..." ?
[23:13:26] <Hixie> or "<t>2006-02-25 02:07 UTC</t>: I went to..." and have the CSS dynamically change the date into "n days ago" as desired, if what you want is for it to dynamically update
[23:13:47] <pnhChris> drop the "blog post" .. it was only contextual
[23:14:21] <mfbot> [[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5146 * Tantek * (-2) comment for previous edit - made dtreviewed optional, cleaned up some bits
[23:14:25] <pnhChris> to show that the item itself might have been ages ago
[23:14:41] <pnhChris> but the written text had two dates in to
[23:14:55] <Hixie> oh i assumed they were the same
[23:14:57] * Hixie looks more closely
[23:14:59] <pnhChris> no
[23:15:02] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5147 * Tantek * (-25)
[23:15:08] <Hixie> in that case yes, seems valid, sure.
[23:15:25] <pnhChris> ok
[23:15:27] <Hixie> A fine use, though not what I originally had in mind.
[23:15:54] <pnhChris> so
[23:16:16] <Hixie> so?
[23:16:23] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5148 * Tantek * (+184)
[23:17:04] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=5149 * Tantek * (+182)
[23:17:15] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5150 * Tantek * (-9)
[23:17:26] <pnhChris> if i wrote the following in a blog post... "three days ago...." and it was outputted on the page as <t class="published">2004-02-25 02:07 UTC</a>: three days ago
[23:17:31] <pnhChris> er...
[23:17:38] <pnhChris> class="published">2004-02-25 02:07 UTC</t>
[23:18:04] <Hixie> that would seem odd, but ok...?
[23:18:17] <hober> pnhChris: <t class="published" value="2004-yadda-yadda">3 days ago</t>
[23:18:29] <pnhChris> NO
[23:18:33] <pnhChris> screw it
[23:18:38] <pnhChris> i'll mark up a page later
[23:18:47] <pnhChris> the days ago wasn't when it was posted
[23:18:52] * Hixie is even more confused now
[23:18:53] <pnhChris> the days ago was my writing
[23:19:15] <Hixie> in that case your hypothetical CMS is buggy
[23:19:27] <hober> pnhChris: perhaps "here's a photo of my cat..." would make better example text
[23:19:28] <Hixie> and shouldn't have used that class, assuming you've defined that class to mean when it's published
[23:19:44] <pnhChris> "here's a photo of my cat taken three days ago"
[23:19:53] <pnhChris> posted on: today
[23:20:12] <pnhChris> is what i was trying to represent
[23:20:18] <Hixie> ah
[23:20:27] <pnhChris> today will shift
[23:20:28] <Hixie> <t> as suggested so far doesn't have the semantics to do any of that
[23:20:34] <pnhChris> by the cms
[23:20:41] <tantek> pnhChris, think of this as a replacement for our (microformats) current use of <abbr> to separate human/machine readable date times
[23:20:51] <hober> posted on: <t class="published" value="2006-yadda-yadda">Yadda Yadda, 2006</t>, with some kind of css/js browser-side replacement of "Yadda Yadda, 2006" with a localized rendition of the t@value
[23:20:56] <pnhChris> and if you want to do the <t value="">human</a> thing it can
[23:21:14] <pnhChris> but the "three days ago" is a valid time representation and your propsoed t doesn't cover that
[23:21:32] <pnhChris> tantek: yes
[23:21:48] <pnhChris> tantek: but if it wasn't for microformats i would never do that.. and haven't for years and years
[23:21:52] <hober> (s/localized rendition/restatement as N days ago/ if you want)
[23:21:59] <tantek> Hixie, I think the first time we discussed the need for a datetime element in HTML was when we went about creating "HSF", and realized that datetime was the one key element missing in HTML that would have otherwise made RSS fully unnecessary/redundant.
[23:22:14] <tantek> I have vague recollections of a dark evening in Oslo.
[23:22:20] <Hixie> pnhChris: how <t> is rendered would be entirely up to CSS or XBL, I don't see how the definition of <t> is relevant to that really
[23:22:29] <Hixie> tantek: yeah
[23:22:30] <pnhChris> tantek: but i see no reason whatever i had used for represenation of time or date wouldn't be valid date elements sematically
[23:22:59] <Hixie> (i suppose we could introduce an attribute on <t> that replaces the hAtom classes for dates and times but I don't see that as being a 1.0 requirement)
[23:23:17] <pnhChris> strike valid... sematically.. in the flow of markup.. they're semantically dates
[23:23:49] <pnhChris> because they don't follow some format, to me, shoudn't prevent me from using an html element to represent them, if one were added
[23:25:48] * pnhChris also hates the abbr requirement of mfs from an authoring standpoint, but understands the desire for it to be there... just don't see it when you're talking marking up a generic document
[23:28:10] <Hixie> i don't understand why you would _want_ to use the element if you didn't want to make it machine-useful
[23:29:18] <Hixie> tantek: so one option to get around existing usage of <t> would be to say that <t>foo</t> renders "foo" but <t value=""/> (or <t datetime=""/>) renders a localised datetime
[23:31:19] * LTjake (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
[23:32:56] <mfbot> [[hreview-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-feedback&diff=0&oldid=5151 * Tantek * (+276)
[23:33:19] <tantek> Hixie, yes that would work
[23:33:35] <tantek> and that <t value="ISO8601">foo</t> renders as foo as well
[23:34:22] <tantek> Hixie, no need to replace hAtom classes with anything else
[23:34:27] <tantek> <t class="published> is fine
[23:34:59] * markp (n=markp@adsl-144-163-207.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
[23:35:11] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
[23:35:14] <Hixie> yeah i'm intending to look at just standardising some common class names next january
[23:35:18] <pnhChris> ok
[23:35:22] <pnhChris> http://placenamehere.com/temp/t_element.txt
[23:35:34] <pnhChris> the same hatom entry 4 times
[23:35:57] <Hixie> deary me, so many <div>s
[23:36:08] * Hixie mentally replaces them with <article> and <section>
[23:36:16] <Hixie> and <footer>
[23:36:22] <pnhChris> i'm under the impression that the 2nd case would contain an invalid t
[23:36:48] <Hixie> not really invalid, but mostly useless, like <abbr>W3C</abbr>
[23:36:55] <pnhChris> and i'd never actually write either of the second case
[23:36:57] <pnhChris> ah
[23:37:01] <pnhChris> theres a big difference
[23:37:02] <Hixie> (as opposed to <abbr title="...">W3C</abbr>
[23:37:04] <Hixie> )
[23:37:27] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
[23:37:28] <Hixie> there's a big difference between what and what?
[23:37:38] <pnhChris> invalid and not useful
[23:37:56] <Hixie> well the spec doesn't exist yet
[23:38:02] <Hixie> do you want it to be invalid, or useless? :-)
[23:38:11] <Hixie> generally i try to make the spec make useless things invalid
[23:38:17] <Hixie> to prevent people from having a false sense of doing good
[23:38:22] <pnhChris> useless... i was getting the impression it would be invalid
[23:38:33] <Hixie> well, why would it not be invalid?
[23:38:41] <Hixie> that is, why make useless things valid?
[23:39:00] * Hixie was considering making <abbr>W3C</abbr> invalid too, if the page didn't define W3C
[23:40:44] <tantek> Hixie, not every instance of an abbr should need an expansion
[23:41:03] <tantek> would be nice if a <dfn> or <dl><dt>..<dd> instance would somehow suffice
[23:41:09] <tantek> (on the same page of course)
[23:41:18] * tantek also wants rel="glossary"
[23:41:21] <Hixie> HTML5 has a quite specific definition of "define" that handles those cases
[23:41:33] <Hixie> see http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dfn
[23:41:36] <Hixie> (still a draft of course)
[23:41:41] <Hixie> (but it gives the general idea)
[23:43:00] <pnhChris> i dunno
[23:43:21] <pnhChris> i still see value in <abbr>w3c</abbr>
[23:43:40] <Hixie> what's the value?
[23:43:43] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5152 * Tantek * (+40) note that an hReview covers one item
[23:43:46] <pnhChris> even if its only to hint a screen reader that you have an abbreviation but though you don't know what it is you shouldn't try and pronounce it
[23:43:58] <pnhChris> on top of that you still have styling oppotunities
[23:44:05] <Hixie> it still has to try to pronounce it
[23:44:10] <Hixie> somehow
[23:44:14] <mfbot> [[hreview-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-issues&diff=0&oldid=5153 * Tantek * (+288)
[23:44:19] <pnhChris> and other things intended for a human audience, not a machine thats consuming it
[23:44:29] <Hixie> i don't see how <abbr>radar</abbr> helps vs radar
[23:44:45] <Hixie> or <t>today</t> vs today
[23:45:05] <hober> well, <acronym>radar</acronym> :)
[23:45:31] <hober> because the reader *should* pronounce radar as though it were a word
[23:45:32] <Hixie> <acronym> is so dead
[23:45:55] <pnhChris> well.. i really do have to go find dinner
[23:46:04] <hober> agreed; I was trying to make a joke about this abbr use case
[23:46:29] <hober> I don't see the point of abbr without @title
[23:47:26] <Hixie> hehe
[23:58:20] * bear is now known as bear_dinner
[23:59:40] <tantek> hober, you may want the UA to look up the abbr somewhere else, like in a glossary, so you don't have to repeat it over and over with every instance
[23:59:43] <tantek> e.g.
[23:59:45] <tantek> <link rel="glossary" href="http://ian.hixie.ch/bible/english" />

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