IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-03-22
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:41:35] <jibot>
TimC is Tim Callahan
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- [01:11:32] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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- [01:29:12] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [02:35:09] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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- [02:53:13] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [03:38:53] <DanC>
hmm... http://austin.adactio.com/ uses ; to separate geo lat/long ... I was using , ...
- [03:39:08] <DanC>
I sorta got my travel schedule on a google map... http://dm93.org/2006geo/where.html
- [03:39:14] <DanC>
just 2 of my events are geocoded
- [03:44:16] * DanC reads the x2v code
- [03:44:28] <DanC>
man... it implements all that p formatting stuff
- [03:48:58] <DanC>
ok, the RFC says ; . GEO:37.386013;-122.082932 http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/rfc2426#sec3.4.2
- [03:49:08] <DanC>
and x2v maps abbr/title literally (unlike lat/long)
- [03:52:00] <DanC>
ah... sub-prop does ;-delimited stuff
- [03:52:31] <DanC>
GEO:20;24;
- [03:52:37] <DanC>
I think that trailing ; is broken
- [03:52:53] <DanC>
I know I had to take out a trailing ; in order to get apple ical to eat something one time.
- [03:53:50] <DanC>
wild... "should
- [03:53:50] <DanC>
be specified to six decimal places. This will allow for granularity
- [03:53:50] <DanC>
within a meter of the geographical position."
- [03:54:09] <DanC>
so you can't say "somewhere in Austin". you have to say _exactly_ where.
- [03:54:12] <DanC>
well, you should.
- [04:04:15] <bewest>
DanC: your map doesn't move to the location clicked
- [04:04:29] <DanC>
in 2 cases, it does. NCE and Austin
- [04:04:48] <bewest>
yeah
- [04:04:57] <DanC>
<DanC> just 2 of my events are geocoded
- [04:05:03] <bewest>
oh oh
- [04:05:32] * DanC geocodes some more, a la http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/100
- [04:05:56] <bewest>
alternatively you can create instant maps with your place published as an hCard at http://www.nearwhere.com/guest/ :-)
- [04:08:00] <bewest>
currently building a richer interface where you can just publish several locations as a saved map
- [04:08:17] <bewest>
and the locations are hCards
- [04:08:23] <DanC>
er... how does that thing know where I live?
- [04:08:32] <bewest>
magic?
- [04:08:37] <bewest>
sniffs your IP
- [04:08:44] <bewest>
spooky or neat?
- [04:08:54] <qid>
there are services that will give location information for IPs, they don't always work
- [04:09:04] <bewest>
yeah, it doesn't always work
- [04:09:07] <DanC>
spooky
- [04:09:07] <bewest>
it works often though
- [04:09:25] * DanC realizes it's off by a few miles. whew.
- [04:09:29] <bewest>
yeah
- [04:09:30] <bewest>
it's not you
- [04:09:33] <bewest>
it's your router
- [04:09:35] <bewest>
or switch
- [04:09:36] <bewest>
or something
- [04:09:39] <DanC>
right
- [04:09:39] <bewest>
ATM
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- [04:09:55] <qid>
if your IP is dynamic at all it probably doesn't work very well
- [04:10:31] <DanC>
it feels invasive. maybe I'm not a typical visitor, but I was definitely spooked.
- [04:10:34] <bewest>
actually we had a big problem with google because all the ads were targeted for palo alto, CA
- [04:10:40] <bewest>
I don't think you're atypical
- [04:10:44] <bewest>
that's the first comment we get
- [04:11:05] <bewest>
we have several sets of locations that are world wide, we need it to center the map somewhere
- [04:11:11] <bewest>
we figured where you are would be a good starting point
- [04:11:23] <bewest>
but it does seem to be unsettling to people
- [04:11:34] <bewest>
maybe we should back it out to the state or country or something
- [04:11:46] <bewest>
it just seems so useful though
- [04:11:50] <DanC>
country, yes. some sort of "find me on the map" button would be ok
- [04:12:10] <DanC>
or even "what's in Lenexa, KS?"
- [04:12:32] <DanC>
i.e. a little text link/button
- [04:19:37] <DanC>
ok, all 6 events geocoded. http://dm93.org/2006geo/where.html
- [04:19:51] * DanC wonders about a better icon, or a little bubble
- [04:20:34] <DanC>
"We recommend that you use standards-compliant XHTML on pages that contain maps." awesome! http://maps.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/#XHTML_and_VML
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- [04:21:02] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [04:28:10] <bewest>
DanC: yeah, but then they give you that VML stuff that doesnt' validate
- [04:28:37] * DanC cares a lot more about XML-wf-ness than DTD-happiness
- [04:28:39] <bewest>
I have no idea what this does: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
- [04:30:50] <DanC>
ah... my aptdata.py doodad was screwing up degree/minute/second calculations...
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- [04:34:57] <bewest>
this openid thing is intriguing
- [04:35:10] <bewest>
but it requires that you have a URL
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- [04:35:20] <bewest>
I suppose you could have identity companies that hand out URL's
- [04:35:26] <DanC>
yup.
- [04:35:34] * DanC wonders how we got onto openid
- [04:35:38] <bewest>
sorry
- [04:35:39] <bewest>
um
- [04:35:44] <bewest>
I looked at your schedule
- [04:35:48] <bewest>
then browsed to the web page
- [04:35:48] <DanC>
I'm trying to figure out how SXIP and openid relate
- [04:36:05] <bewest>
because I was wishing I could have attended such a workshop
- [04:36:13] <bewest>
and then I saw your paper
- [04:36:18] <bewest>
and then I read some of it
- [04:36:22] <bewest>
then I browsed to openid
- [04:36:46] * DanC thinks this web thing just might come in handy some day ;-)
- [04:36:52] <bewest>
:-)
- [04:36:59] <bewest>
well... I'm practically a professional browser
- [04:37:04] <bewest>
so, probably not
- [04:37:26] <bewest>
are those kinds of workshops open to the public?
- [04:38:05] <DanC>
the proceedings are public; I can't remember the rules for getting in...
- [04:38:26] <DanC>
"The Call for Participation asked all interested parties to submit position papers"
- [04:38:50] <DanC>
"W3C membership is not required in order to participate in the Workshop."
- [04:38:56] <bewest>
ah
- [04:39:07] <DanC>
http://www.w3.org/2005/Security/usability-ws/cfp.html
- [04:40:32] <DanC>
so you know much about SAML?
- [04:41:16] <bewest>
no
- [04:43:15] <bewest>
your full time job is w3c stuff?
- [04:43:18] <DanC>
yes
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- [04:43:55] <DanC>
hmm... now that I've figured this vevent/gmap stuff out, what to do with it?
- [04:44:43] <bewest>
put it on your w3c page?
- [04:44:49] <bewest>
is that bad form though?
- [04:45:06] <DanC>
bad form... umm... not too much.
- [04:45:22] <DanC>
I'd need yet another API key. I guess that's cheap enough
- [04:45:53] <DanC>
I dunno if I want to spend the screen real-estate on my homepage. And I don't like to have too much javascript/glitz. (though I went for a delicous thingy)
- [04:46:30] <DanC>
I'd like to use it for my events page, going back to 1991. http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/events/
- [04:46:38] <DanC>
but that's a lot of geocoding.
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- [04:48:33] <DanC>
ooh... or maybe on my itinerary... http://www.w3.org/2006/03dc-aus-lga/ticket234
- [04:49:29] <bewest>
ah that last one needs authentication
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- [04:50:10] <DanC>
nah.
- [04:50:21] <DanC>
not after the trip is over, anyway.
- [04:50:30] <DanC>
and I've been publishing them since 2001
- [04:51:13] <bewest>
what did you do before w3c, btw?
- [04:51:57] <DanC>
UT Austin, Convex, Atrium, Hal. http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/misc/vita
- [04:53:03] <bewest>
oh
- [04:56:01] <bewest>
so, you got a BS, spent about 5 years in commerical interests then joined W3C full time
- [04:56:02] <bewest>
neato
- [04:56:42] <DanC>
yup, that's a good summary.
- [04:56:52] <DanC>
and you?
- [04:57:03] <bewest>
btw, your link to hal appears to be broken
- [04:57:24] <bewest>
hmm I got a BA in music, graduated in July, worked for small web boutique for 6 months
- [04:57:26] <bewest>
now looking for job
- [04:57:54] <DanC>
music. yum. http://dm93.org/z2001/ThreeChordsAndTheTruth
- [04:58:58] <DanC>
and "Arpeggio in D, a little three chord ditty" http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/66
- [05:00:29] <bewest>
:-) if you play smaller instruments, the airline will let you carry them on
- [05:00:45] <bewest>
I picked up an erhu in China, and tabla in Singapore
- [05:00:50] <bewest>
luckily I got to carry them
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- [05:01:02] <DanC>
I have had mixed luck carrying on my guitars
- [05:01:56] <DanC>
once I was flying from Austin to Kansas City, thru Dallas. I asked, in Austin, "Can I carry it on? otherwise, I'll leave it at home". "Yes." then, in dallas, "no. we have to check it." I was stuck!
- [05:02:30] <DanC>
they didn't crunch it that time.
- [05:02:38] <DanC>
but I have had a guitar case and some peg tuners crunched
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- [05:11:23] * bewest reads immersive editing
- [05:14:29] <bewest>
hmm
- [05:14:54] <bewest>
does "immersive editing" suggest that the problem is a technical one?
- [05:18:19] <bewest>
DanC: even given "perfect" editing controls that would allow one to publish to the uri namespace in an immersive fashion, I'm not sure the web would be any better. There is a tendency for the masses to write html that reads a bit like: "Click on the link below to go to google: <br><br> http://www.google.com/"
- [05:20:37] <DanC>
well, yes, perhaps the damage is done
- [05:20:43] <DanC>
but it didn't have to be that way
- [05:21:20] * DanC reports the GEO trailing-semi issue to mf-dev, calls it a night
- [05:27:00] <bewest>
whoah, neato hotmail is going to support microformats?
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- [07:49:02] <Atamido>
DanC: "Should" in RFCs basically means might/maybe.
- [07:49:21] <Atamido>
If you allow it at all, you have no control over how much it is used.
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- [08:39:32] <bretonslivka>
hrmn a directions microformat
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- [12:48:44] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-21-mix06-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-21-mix06-microformats&diff=0&oldid=5480 * DimitriGlazkov * (+74) Lessons from the Trenches -
- [12:49:45] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-21-mix06-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-21-mix06-microformats&diff=0&oldid=5481 * DimitriGlazkov * (+1) Lessons from the Trenches -
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- [13:08:22] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=5482 * AlexeyPetrov * (+39) Potential implementations -
- [13:08:40] <jakedahn>
if anyone is awake, where can i get a vector of the microformats logo?
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- [14:34:47] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [14:48:26] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [15:08:49] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
- [15:16:57] * karlUshi (n=karl@sd1u209254.ocv.ne.jp) has joined #microformats
- [15:16:57] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
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- [15:54:58] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
- [15:55:16] <RobertBachmann>
greetings
- [16:00:59] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
- [16:00:59] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
- [16:22:01] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [16:22:01] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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- [16:45:56] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [16:47:14] <KevinMarks>
hi brian
- [16:47:26] <KevinMarks>
IMA is a very old-style audio codec
- [16:47:35] <KevinMarks>
use AAC
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- [17:07:01] * tantek (n=tantek@65.160.19.104) has joined #microformats
- [17:07:01] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [17:07:23] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [17:14:16] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
- [17:14:16] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
- [17:14:19] * bergie (n=bergie@66.78.236.255) has joined #microformats
- [17:14:19] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [17:19:32] <tantek>
greetings
- [17:19:46] <tantek>
once again I'm logging in #mix06 - today, Live Clipboard session
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- [17:33:42] <RobertBachmann>
pnhChris, I've just replied to your mail regarding hAtom2Atom.xsl
- [17:33:59] * bear is now known as bear_errand
- [17:37:54] <pnhChris>
RobertBachmann: i guess my follow up question is does the "responsibility" lie on the style sheet authors or does hatom 0.x need to define some of these items more explicitly...
- [17:38:02] <pnhChris>
thanks for the response though
- [17:38:09] * pnhChris goes back to work
- [17:38:41] <pnhChris>
(and i don't mean defining more in page elements.. but the parsing rules)
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- [17:44:43] <RobertBachmann>
pnhChris, IMO we definitly need a hatom-parsing page on the wiki.
- [17:46:58] <RobertBachmann>
which describes in detail how things should be parsed.
- [17:49:35] * tantek agrees with Robert and offers to help with hatom-parsing
- [17:49:38] <tantek>
bbiab
- [17:49:43] * tantek (n=tantek@65.160.19.104) Quit ()
- [17:49:45] * _fil_ thinks this page is hatom compliant - http://zzz.rezo.net/
- [17:49:53] * _fil_ HOPES
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- [17:58:34] <RobertBachmann>
_fil_, some class names have changed. "excerpt" -> "entry-summary"; "headline" -> "entry-title"
- [18:02:13] <_fil_>
ah
- [18:02:36] <_fil_>
I have trouble with "content"
- [18:03:10] <_fil_>
e.g. if an article has an "over title" (how do you say this in English?)
- [18:03:18] <_fil_>
is it in "content" ?
- [18:07:03] <RobertBachmann>
you want the "entry-title" to be part of the "entry-content"?
- [18:07:04] <_fil_>
I've corrected excerpt and headline
- [18:07:09] <_fil_>
no
- [18:07:18] <_fil_>
"over title" is not the title
- [18:07:25] <_fil_>
it is the line that is "over" it
- [18:07:32] <_fil_>
let me find example
- [18:07:51] <_fil_>
http://mondediplo.com/2006/03/03oilfields
- [18:08:04] <_fil_>
"Oilfields won't satisfy world demand"
- [18:08:32] <_fil_>
the tile (headline or entry-tile) is "Saudi Arabia: the sands run out"
- [18:09:48] * foolswisdom (n=lloyd@dsl017-048-049.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [18:09:51] <RobertBachmann>
so you want that "Oilfields won’t satisfy world demand" is a part of the entry-content
- [18:09:56] <RobertBachmann>
?
- [18:10:07] <_fil_>
well, i suppose it is
- [18:10:14] <_fil_>
it's not floating in the air
- [18:10:20] <_fil_>
it's part of the article
- [18:10:29] <_fil_>
as well as the title, i must say
- [18:11:29] <_fil_>
do you see any other error in http://zzz.rezo.net/ tagging?
- [18:13:19] * foolswisdom (n=lloyd@71-6-0-194-cust.telepacific.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:13:38] <RobertBachmann>
<span class="entry-content">Oilfields ...</span>
- [18:13:38] <RobertBachmann>
<span class="entry-title">Saudi ...</span>
- [18:13:38] <RobertBachmann>
<div class="entry-content">...</div>
- [18:14:34] <RobertBachmann>
zzz.rezo.net looks good, besides the missing feed-title.
- [18:19:27] <_fil_>
feed-title ?
- [18:19:44] <_fil_>
should I duplicate the page title?
- [18:20:10] <_fil_>
in my view that's the title, feed or not
- [18:20:26] <_fil_>
so a parser would take the page title as feed title?
- [18:20:54] <_fil_>
note that you can use the search engine and get the results as an hAtom feed too, as it's just a template
- [18:21:30] <_fil_>
and the CSS is awful, waiting for a designer :)
- [18:22:08] <RobertBachmann>
I've already thought about using /html/head/title as a fall back if no element with class="feed-title" is present. This will be implemented in near future
- [18:22:57] * tantek (n=tantek@65.160.19.103) has joined #microformats
- [18:22:57] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [18:23:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [18:23:41] <_fil_>
ok great
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- [18:24:36] <_fil_>
re: oil fields, when we "assemble" the article from the "entry-content" class, we won't get it in the correct order
- [18:24:53] <_fil_>
as the articles' title is not included in the "content"
- [18:25:26] <_fil_>
tantek: we're talking of the "over title" on http://mondediplo.com/2006/03/03oilfields
- [18:26:08] <_fil_>
I have difficulty with the idea that it's "entry-content", if the "entry-title" isn't
- [18:26:47] <tantek>
huh/
- [18:26:48] <tantek>
?
- [18:27:20] <tantek>
article entry-title does not have to be included in the entry-content. only in the hentry itself.
- [18:28:29] <_fil_>
yes, but now I can't recreate the article from the data
- [18:29:00] <_fil_>
if the data is, on one side, the entry-title, on the other side, the (concatenation of) the "entry-content"
- [18:29:11] <_fil_>
I don't know where the title fits in the content
- [18:29:13] <mfbot>
[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=5483 * Tantek * (+94) added 3.22 mix06 page link
- [18:29:34] <mfbot>
[[rest/ahah]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/ahah&diff=0&oldid=5484 * LB * (+367) AHAH: Asychronous HTML and HTTP -
- [18:29:48] <_fil_>
(admittedly it's a small issue)
- [18:33:12] <RobertBachmann>
"Oilfields won’t satisfy world demand" seems to be a some kind of a subtitle (if we ignore the fact that its placed above the title).
- [18:33:12] <RobertBachmann>
(Wikipedia: "an explanatory or alternate title of a book, play or film, in addition to its main title")
- [18:33:12] <RobertBachmann>
Atom has a subtitle element, but it is only allowed for <feed> and not for <entry>
- [18:33:12] <RobertBachmann>
<http://rfc.net/rfc4287.html#s4.2.12.>
- [18:39:01] <tantek>
yes, subtitle is not 80/20
- [18:47:27] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [18:47:27] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
- [18:47:46] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:47:46] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [18:47:50] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [18:52:05] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-22-mix06-microformats]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-03-22-mix06-microformats * Tantek * (+796)
- [18:53:10] <_fil_>
on http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom I read "author. required using hCard."
- [18:53:32] <_fil_>
I would rather have "author. required, preferably using hCard"
- [18:53:39] <_fil_>
same comment for the line under
- [18:54:07] <_fil_>
(no, forget this last sentence)
- [18:54:10] * timb (n=tim@mail.del.icio.us) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [18:54:41] <_fil_>
anyway for the authors I would rather have "preferably"
- [18:55:26] <_fil_>
cause in many cases you don't want to build an hcard when you have very few info on the author (like, e.g., an IP address)
- [18:55:51] <tantek>
_fil_, we need to fix hAtom to essentially treat "author" precisely the same as hReview treats "reviewer"
- [18:56:01] <tantek>
I think that will address all your issues/concerns
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- [18:59:55] <_fil_>
i'm not sure...
- [19:00:15] <_fil_>
I don't like "For anonymous reviews, use "anonymous" (without quotes) for the full name of the reviewer."
- [19:00:20] <_fil_>
this is not multilingual
- [19:00:31] <tantek>
we basically had all the same concerns raised with "reviewer" that you have raised with "author" for hAtom
- [19:00:49] <tantek>
_fil_, that's a reasonably issue to bring up - go ahead and add it to /wiki/hreview-issues
- [19:01:03] <_fil_>
what if the reviewer (or author) is "empty" ?
- [19:01:27] * trovv (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [19:01:27] <_fil_>
if I don't have the info, it doesn't mean the the page author is the author :)
- [19:01:45] <tantek>
actually, in the 99% case, it does
- [19:01:58] <tantek>
since reviews posted on blogs are typically reviews by the author of the blog
- [19:05:47] <mfbot>
[[hreview-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-issues&diff=0&oldid=5485 * Fil * (+353) hReview issues -
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- [19:23:50] <kingryan>
hey, has anyone here been to XTech before?
- [19:23:59] <dglazkov>
http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/speeches/2006/03-20MIX.asp
- [19:27:18] <dglazkov>
they misspelled microformats (one word, not two)
- [19:27:23] <dglazkov>
hmmm?
- [19:27:54] * scottjungling (n=scottjun@sjc.CSUChico.EDU) has joined #microformats
- [19:28:45] <kingryan>
yeah, that's annoying
- [19:28:56] * kingryan tried searching the page for 'microf' and it didn't work
- [19:29:12] <KevinMarks>
And so all the interoperability standards here, whether it was XML to start with that we were a key part of giving that out as a standard, then the SOAP-level stuff, now we've moved up to a variety of techniques including Web services, all of those things are out there and free for people to use. Even the recent stuff that Ray has done about the simple list extensions, Live Clipboard, that's connecting up to everyone.
- [19:29:12] <KevinMarks>
TIM O'REILLY: That's true, that stuff really wowed people when he demoed it at our e-Tech Conference. I thought, you know, this whole idea of the semantic Web is actually starting to happen in small ways with micro formats, and I thought the fact that Ray picked up on that was really nice, he got a really great response from the geeks who were my audience.
- [19:29:12] <KevinMarks>
BILL GATES: Well, I think his analogy that we've been exchanging data and had some standard formats within a machine, that he now would take that to, okay, let's exchange between different Web sites, it's going to take the idea of contact cards, scheduled appointments, set of directions, all these things where we move standard schema, we need micro formats that people agree on, it's going to let that bootstrap. Because th
- [19:29:18] <KevinMarks>
e more those things become standard, the more other Web sites choose them, and therefore the more popular they become.
- [19:29:21] <KevinMarks>
TIM O'REILLY: Right, so that you get the network effects that really allow us to weave applications together.
- [19:29:24] <KevinMarks>
BILL GATES: Right. And it's all very market driven. If some format is too rigid, then nobody is locked into that, somebody can come along and do something completely different.
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- [19:41:40] <trovv>
Do you think Bill, or even Tim, actually meant Microformats specifically, or small-formats, like micro-payments, etc?
- [19:42:46] <KevinMarks>
they definitely meant microformats, looking at the context
- [19:42:54] <kingryan>
they probably don't know the specifics of microformats, as we understand them
- [19:42:59] <KevinMarks>
contact cards, scheduled appointments
- [19:43:01] <kingryan>
yet, its good to get the brand out there
- [19:43:48] <trovv>
"it's going to take the idea of contact cards, scheduled appointments" -- going to... already does...
- [19:45:19] <trovv>
And especially that they mention Microformats, as two words, such as "micro payments" as an idea, and not specifically a brand.
- [19:45:30] <KevinMarks>
thats a transcription error
- [19:54:23] <kingryan>
has anyone here been to xtech before?
- [20:00:53] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
- [20:10:37] <KevinMarks>
http://homepage.mac.com/kevinmarks/mix06mf.mov
- [20:12:36] <KevinMarks>
I updated my blog post with the transcript and QT links
- [20:15:19] <_fil_>
me too :)
- [20:20:48] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@70-59-118-213.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
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- [20:53:59] <jibot>
shmuel is Shmuel Mikel & is found at http://shmuel.org & in Madrid, Spain & is the director of Aware Creative (a non-profit providing creative services to those seeking peace & justice)
- [20:54:57] <shmuel>
I'm playing with the hcard microformat
- [20:55:30] <shmuel>
And I'm wondering if there is support for the X (non-standard) items
- [20:56:03] <shmuel>
For example Mac OS X's address book uses these for instant messaging addresses
- [20:56:08] <shmuel>
X-JABBER
- [20:56:39] <shmuel>
Also a synonym in addressbook for type is X-ABLabel
- [20:58:23] <shmuel>
Quiet room
- [20:59:07] <briansuda>
there is no support for x-labels because there is no way to determine if it is a microformat or a CSS class
- [20:59:43] <shmuel>
Couldn't it be determined by the fact that it is within the vcard div?
- [21:00:52] <shmuel>
Can we not assume that all classes within the vcard class are related to the hcard?
- [21:01:19] <briansuda>
but if it is an x-label that you created it is not in the hcard profile, so we can't assume anything
- [21:03:01] * bear is now known as bear_afk
- [21:05:47] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5486 * Narendra * (+202) Examples in the wild -
- [21:08:13] <shmuel>
Well, I think what I am suggesting is more a question re: parsing than it is a question regarding the XMDP profile
- [21:08:42] <shmuel>
The parser can compare to the profile and then IF the property is not defined
- [21:08:50] <shmuel>
And it begins with X-
- [21:09:06] <shmuel>
Include it in the vcard generated by the hcard
- [21:09:11] <shmuel>
No?
- [21:09:45] <shmuel>
I understand that you can explicitly define every potential X option in the XMDP profile
- [21:10:05] <shmuel>
But it seems to me that you could allow the parser to parse said options
- [21:11:14] <kingryan>
you could certainly give it a try, but for the format itself we're gonna stick with the standard fields
- [21:11:32] <kingryan>
some of the extension fields in address book.app can be done with URL anyway
- [21:11:47] <shmuel>
Well, it's not that X fields are non-standard
- [21:11:56] <shmuel>
The standard allows for them
- [21:12:00] <shmuel>
Explicitly
- [21:12:32] <shmuel>
So that you can include non-standard fields :)
- [21:14:05] <shmuel>
From the standard: "The profile permits the use of non-standard types (i.e., those
- [21:14:05] <shmuel>
identified with the prefix string "X-") as a flexible method for
- [21:14:05] <shmuel>
implementations to extend the functionality currently defined within
- [21:14:05] <shmuel>
this profile."
- [21:14:19] <shmuel>
Oops, sorry about the flood
- [21:14:48] <_fil_>
22:00 < shmuel> Can we not assume that all classes within the vcard class are related to the hcard?
- [21:14:54] <_fil_>
no we can't
- [21:15:23] <shmuel>
Ok, why is that?
- [21:15:47] <_fil_>
otherwise you'll be obliged to use only semantic class names
- [21:16:02] <_fil_>
(or i didn't understand your suggestion)
- [21:17:34] <shmuel>
Ok, well, maybe I should make my suggestion more specific. Can we suggest (as the vcard specification implies) that all classes with in the hcard's vcard class that begin with x- or X- are related to the h/vcard?
- [21:17:39] <pnhChris>
shmuel: take the case of <body class="vcard"> ... you could have a whole pae in there but just 3 or 4 elements related to the vcard data
- [21:17:52] <pnhChris>
s/pae/page
- [21:18:01] <shmuel>
Right, that seems a strange way to use hcards to me but - ok.
- [21:18:01] * limbo_ (n=me@dsl081-055-160.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ("> food")
- [21:18:05] <pnhChris>
well
- [21:18:12] <shmuel>
I take your point.
- [21:18:23] <_fil_>
not if the web page is "the author's page"
- [21:18:29] <pnhChris>
there's 2 approaches.. one is just embedding a small chunk of data into a document
- [21:18:32] <_fil_>
with a full bio containing lots of things
- [21:18:36] <pnhChris>
the other is overlaying two documents
- [21:18:42] <_fil_>
images, and so on
- [21:18:53] <_fil_>
an many classes just for presentation purposes
- [21:18:56] <shmuel>
Ok, I see that - again, I'll give that point.
- [21:19:09] <shmuel>
I'm not interested in seeing EVERY class included
- [21:19:12] <shmuel>
Only x- classes
- [21:19:23] <_fil_>
then you'd want to limit it to x-... things
- [21:19:25] <shmuel>
Per the vcard specification
- [21:19:29] <shmuel>
Right
- [21:19:41] <shmuel>
Which doesn't seem overly burdensome to me
- [21:19:46] <_fil_>
this is not really the microformat way of doing things
- [21:19:50] <_fil_>
*but*
- [21:20:02] <_fil_>
but you can add whatever you like to microformats :)
- [21:20:04] <shmuel>
Ok... elaborate on that... ?
- [21:20:17] <shmuel>
Why is that not the microformat way
- [21:20:24] <_fil_>
the microformat delivers a simple "bare bones" standard
- [21:20:36] <_fil_>
(or, would-be standard, based on standards)
- [21:20:49] <_fil_>
something very simple most people can agree on
- [21:21:08] <_fil_>
they don't aim to encompass all cases
- [21:21:22] <_fil_>
you can just build things upon this the way you want
- [21:21:33] <_fil_>
even agree on "standards" on top of microformats
- [21:22:00] <_fil_>
but the mf approach is really "minimalist"
- [21:22:24] * _fil_ speaks without authority on the subject
- [21:22:41] <briansuda>
the next issue is then all these x-params floating around, how do you say that it is for hCard or hCal? in my opinion it is a bad idea not only because it starts making vendor specific terms, but then it starts to fork applications that transform HTML to the corresponding formats
- [21:24:06] <_fil_>
this will happen anyway
- [21:24:37] <_fil_>
the 80/20 rule means 20% of applications will need to find ways to do their stuff outside the strict scope of mf
- [21:24:52] <shmuel>
Exactly fil - I think it is shortsighted to make the format so strict
- [21:25:03] <_fil_>
but if everyone agrees on the 80% part then we have beautifull interoperability "on the field"
- [21:25:06] <shmuel>
Best to define a way in which these cases will be handled
- [21:25:23] <pnhChris>
well
- [21:25:30] <_fil_>
yes and no: more specific things are beyond the scope of mf
- [21:25:34] <pnhChris>
i'd suggest the 80/20 be read differently
- [21:25:36] * tantek (n=tantek@65.160.19.104) has joined #microformats
- [21:25:36] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [21:25:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [21:26:00] <_fil_>
shmuel: i disagree with your view
- [21:26:09] <shmuel>
:)
- [21:26:17] <_fil_>
it's wise, on the contrary, to make things simple
- [21:26:31] <_fil_>
and leave it to others to build whatever they want on top of it
- [21:26:34] <shmuel>
Well, my view is based on a couple of things:
- [21:26:51] * pnhChris notices tantek walking in
- [21:26:54] * _fil_ could never understand why RSS was so complicated
- [21:27:05] <shmuel>
- Experience which tells me that every standard will get added to
- [21:27:32] <shmuel>
- Precedence which says most standards use the x- format
- [21:27:45] <shmuel>
ical, vcard
- [21:27:47] <tantek>
or vnd.
- [21:27:49] <shmuel>
mail headers
- [21:27:55] <shmuel>
etc etc
- [21:28:01] <KevinMarks>
right, but x- means 'my private thing that I hope to get standardised later'
- [21:28:09] * tantek wonders what discussion he walked in the middle of
- [21:28:23] <shmuel>
Right, and so it should
- [21:28:34] <shmuel>
But it's nice to have interim operability
- [21:28:34] <tantek>
or just my private thing
- [21:28:46] <KevinMarks>
so your worry is that vCard ->hCard ->vCard will strip the x- elements?
- [21:28:47] <tantek>
doesn't necessarily indicate any intent/desire to have it standardized later
- [21:28:59] <pnhChris>
adding x- parsing methods to the relevant mfs
- [21:29:16] <tantek>
most x- properties are totally unnecessary
- [21:29:17] <shmuel>
My suggestion is this (also for tantek)
- [21:29:23] <shmuel>
I agree tantek
- [21:29:25] <shmuel>
But...
- [21:29:26] <tantek>
essentially mistakes and misunderstandings by implementers
- [21:29:32] <tantek>
thus for now we ignore them
- [21:30:03] <tantek>
except as indicators of what *developers* are thinking
- [21:30:12] <tantek>
but of course we give much greater weight to what *publishers* are thinking
- [21:30:17] <shmuel>
Well, it's my (humble) opinion that refusing to acknowledge these cases is short sighted
- [21:30:44] <tantek>
and inflating their significance is a waste of time
- [21:31:07] <shmuel>
Hmm
- [21:31:33] <tantek>
80/20 is the response to most such things
- [21:32:04] <shmuel>
Ignoring them at the expense of functionality is better/
- [21:32:05] <shmuel>
?
- [21:32:26] <shmuel>
It seems a high-tower mentality to me
- [21:32:50] <pnhChris>
shmuel: maybe some examples of what you think is missing would help at moving the conversation forward
- [21:33:08] <KevinMarks>
btw tantek, updated links to Gates are on my blog if you want to propagate them to mf.org http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006_03_01_epeus_archive.html#114298458682596670
- [21:33:16] <pnhChris>
.. or is it really just "it all"
- [21:33:45] <shmuel>
X-JABBER, X-MSN, etc. for example
- [21:34:05] <shmuel>
At least until they get standardized - which I presume they will one day
- [21:34:54] <shmuel>
The IM client tags are an excellent example of something /publishers/ want to put in their content
- [21:34:59] <tantek>
not high-tower
- [21:35:02] <tantek>
opportunity cost of time
- [21:35:11] <tantek>
fringe stuff is not worth the time in comparison to the 80%
- [21:35:52] <shmuel>
Simply acknowledging and passing on x- tags is one feature, and hardly a fringe one at that (IMHO)
- [21:37:25] <shmuel>
I know that /many/ publishers and developers are not going to want to take every possible x-tag for every addressbook in to account
- [21:37:39] <shmuel>
It's right back to having to code different html for every browsers
- [21:38:10] <shmuel>
But many publishers/developers live in the world between what they want to do and what they recognize the need to do
- [21:38:12] <tantek>
and we know how that ended up
- [21:38:18] <tantek>
publishers have moved on
- [21:38:34] <pnhChris>
i don't know.. i seem to see the issue of how little data is really sotred more often then how much or how detailed.. but perhaps i'm just looking at a different application then you are
- [21:38:35] <shmuel>
Most publishers still code for as many browsers as they can
- [21:38:44] <shmuel>
Especially in corporate enviroments
- [21:39:22] <shmuel>
pnhChris: I'm sorry I didn't understand what you just said
- [21:41:07] <pnhChris>
just that you're looking at a problem of someone trying to publish a ton of data types.. and most of the cases i've encountered are where an existing web application really doesn't do a good job at breaking down the information and storing all that many different permutations of a "card"
- [21:41:08] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@adsl-69-107-57-254.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:41:18] <bewest>
shmuel: I think he means that on average, implementations go with the least amount of disctinct properties they can store, as opposed to the greatest
- [21:41:26] <pnhChris>
but that could be just that we're workign in different contexts
- [21:41:42] <tantek>
nah, modern web publishers code in XHTML+CSS
- [21:41:58] <shmuel>
Right but have you seen the number of "hacks" in most css?
- [21:41:58] <tantek>
and have largely abandoned 99% of browser-specific coding because it is a waste of time/resource
- [21:42:07] * tantek chuckles
- [21:42:09] <pnhChris>
right.. but user registrations forms generally have a low and fixed # of data types they store
- [21:42:10] <bewest>
yeah, I never code more than one version of something. if it doesn't work, I rewrite it and dumb it down till it works everywhere
- [21:42:17] <tantek>
yep
- [21:42:30] <bewest>
hacks and browser specificities are a waste of my time
- [21:42:31] <tantek>
seriously, this is all about most effective use of time
- [21:42:40] <tantek>
focusing on the 80% first is the most effective thing to do
- [21:42:48] <shmuel>
Ok, let me ask this then
- [21:42:48] <pnhChris>
or even cases like job boards or myspace profiles.. still allow for a limited range of data types
- [21:43:02] <tantek>
if any particular extension becomes relevant enough to bubble up, then we'll look at it, until then it's simply a waste of time, compared to other work
- [21:43:07] <pnhChris>
rather then.. say... an application to turn AddressBook.app into a web page
- [21:43:11] * tantek is going to lunch
- [21:43:15] <shmuel>
How does one code a IM address (a pretty major address on the net I would say) into a hcard
- [21:43:25] <tantek>
shmuel, send email to microformats-discuss
- [21:43:31] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/discuss
- [21:43:34] <tantek>
see you on the list!
- [21:43:36] * tantek (n=tantek@65.160.19.104) Quit ()
- [21:44:11] <shmuel>
Ok
- [21:44:14] <shmuel>
Well ...
- [21:44:47] <shmuel>
We'll see how it all pans out in the end I guess
- [21:45:18] <_fil_>
I agree IM is big enough to be considered :)
- [21:45:31] <_fil_>
just start using it
- [21:45:31] <pnhChris>
the messanger address is soemthing that has come up a few times at least already
- [21:45:49] <_fil_>
when ppl uses it, mf will valid them
- [21:45:53] <pnhChris>
with the schemes that don't have their own protocl getting the short end of thigns currently
- [21:45:56] <_fil_>
not the other way round
- [21:45:58] <shmuel>
pnhChris: I'm sure it has.
- [21:46:03] <kingryan>
aren't there url schemes (albeit, unregistered) for IM clients?
- [21:46:19] <_fil_>
not in my knowledge
- [21:46:22] <shmuel>
kingryan: for a couple
- [21:46:22] <pnhChris>
kingryan: no.. not all protocols
- [21:46:26] <shmuel>
yim
- [21:46:26] <shmuel>
aim
- [21:46:29] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5487 * DimitriGlazkov * (+318) Entry Author (atom:author) -
- [21:46:29] <kingryan>
skype
- [21:46:33] <shmuel>
For aol and yahoo
- [21:46:37] <_fil_>
there's still one thing per IM space
- [21:46:45] <pnhChris>
MSN has none
- [21:46:49] <_fil_>
that's a big big mistake
- [21:46:49] <shmuel>
Right
- [21:47:05] <kingryan>
_fil_, you say its a mistake to have a different scheme for each network?
- [21:47:11] <_fil_>
yes
- [21:47:17] <kingryan>
but they *are* different protocols
- [21:47:18] <briansuda>
Apple Address book is the only app i know that actually makes use of IM names, does outlook?
- [21:47:24] <kingryan>
just like http and ftp are
- [21:47:27] * shmuel agrees with kingryan
- [21:47:32] <bewest>
google does, kind of
- [21:47:43] <_fil_>
I don't care the internals
- [21:47:48] <_fil_>
the use is the same
- [21:48:08] <_fil_>
the clients are often the same
- [21:48:10] <mfbot>
[[DimitriGlazkov]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/DimitriGlazkov * DimitriGlazkov * (+37)
- [21:48:27] <shmuel>
_fil_: even the clients have to know which protocol you are talking about
- [21:48:40] <_fil_>
that's more a naming space to me
- [21:48:46] <mfbot>
[[DimitriGlazkov]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=DimitriGlazkov&diff=0&oldid=5488 * DimitriGlazkov * (-4)
- [21:49:02] <bewest>
briansuda: most apps go the other way: they allow users to use another name as an alias to an IM name, which suggests people find IM names less useful than a preconcieved name, perhaps
- [21:49:18] <_fil_>
people are obliged to use aliases
- [21:49:30] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [21:49:49] <_fil_>
I myself can't remember my IM addresses
- [21:49:56] <shmuel>
_fil_: I agree that IM is a broken thing in general
- [21:49:59] <_fil_>
except on jabber cause it's on my server
- [21:50:01] <kingryan>
_fil_, its more than namespacing, each require different technology
- [21:50:14] <_fil_>
well, then it means it's broken
- [21:50:21] <kingryan>
of course, its broken
- [21:50:25] <_fil_>
ok
- [21:50:30] <kingryan>
but there are degrees of brokenness :D
- [21:50:38] <shmuel>
:)
- [21:50:57] <_fil_>
you say "can you send me an email ?"
- [21:51:07] <_fil_>
not "can you send me an aol message" ?
- [21:51:08] <kingryan>
RobertBachmann, you here?
- [21:51:22] <pnhChris>
you can say "can you AIM me"
- [21:51:26] <pnhChris>
why not?
- [21:51:32] <_fil_>
what is it?
- [21:51:35] <_fil_>
Apple?
- [21:51:37] <_fil_>
AOL?
- [21:51:45] <shmuel>
_fil_: maybe someday we will achieve unified instant messaging
- [21:51:48] <shmuel>
But until then
- [21:51:56] <shmuel>
We have to acknoledge different protocols
- [21:52:03] <kingryan>
yes, until then, let's not try to fix all problems at once
- [21:52:17] <_fil_>
I'm not trying to fix anything here :)
- [21:52:20] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [21:52:25] <kingryan>
we already have an addressing mechanism which can point at resources using various protocols
- [21:52:42] <pnhChris>
_fil_: its understood by convention / popularity to be aol
- [21:52:48] <_fil_>
it's just to say that the whole idea of "an AIM address" is a big problem in itself
- [21:52:54] <kingryan>
if you wanna point to MSN IM handles on the web, we need a URL scheme
- [21:52:55] <_fil_>
though it's a simple idea
- [21:53:28] <kingryan>
I don't think its an inherent problem
- [21:53:37] <shmuel>
Ok, thanks for listening to my ideas - and disagreeing with them :)
- [21:53:38] <shmuel>
Later
- [21:53:39] <RobertBachmann>
kingryan, yes
- [21:53:39] <kingryan>
today *email* is generic, but that hasn't always been the case
- [21:53:57] <kingryan>
I just got a weird email from svn about post-commit.pl failing
- [21:53:58] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:53:58] <kingryan>
?
- [21:54:03] <_fil_>
yes; we should fix the post office too: why not say "send this packet to fil@rezo.net"
- [21:54:08] * shmuel (n=shmuel@64.241.37.140) has left #microformats
- [21:54:09] <_fil_>
write this on the envelope
- [21:54:19] <_fil_>
and let the post office deal with it
- [21:54:24] <kingryan>
_fil_, we should invent teleportation, too
- [21:54:33] <_fil_>
i'm not joking
- [21:54:39] * pnhChris runs off to do soemthing more productive
- [21:54:47] <pnhChris>
... like learning how to type
- [21:55:16] <_fil_>
if my email=>street address is not on the PO database, they'll just send me an email to know where I live
- [21:55:21] <_fil_>
if my email=>street address is not on the PO database, they'll just send me an email to ask where I live
- [21:55:35] <_fil_>
should be the same for IM
- [21:56:07] <_fil_>
jabber is almost doing this
- [21:56:11] <pnhChris>
are you saying there should be a 1:1 correspondence between email and physical address?
- [21:56:46] <kingryan>
you should be able to write this on an envelope: http://technorati.com/about/contact.html#whatsthis
- [21:57:22] <pnhChris>
and when the web page updates while the package is in the back of a plane?
- [21:57:24] <pnhChris>
:P
- [21:57:24] <RobertBachmann>
kingryan, yes I just broke the hook script of my SVN repository. It should work again now.
- [21:57:32] <_fil_>
;-)
- [21:57:38] <kingryan>
k, just making sure you were aware RobertBachmann
- [21:58:57] <KevinMarks>
you mean we have an mf svn repository now?
- [21:59:21] <_fil_>
anyway, while the IM mess is not cleared, the IM microformat will not be very useable
- [21:59:36] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
- [21:59:38] <RobertBachmann>
KevinMarks, I was talking about the repository for hAtom2Atom.xsl which is hosted on my server
- [21:59:45] <KevinMarks>
ah
- [22:00:01] <jakedahn>
Can someone point me to someplace where I can get a vector version of the Microformats logo?
- [22:00:13] <RobertBachmann>
BTW SourceForge.net now provides SVN
- [22:00:43] <jakedahn>
RobertBachmann: It was a good move on SourceForge's part :)
- [22:00:56] <jakedahn>
who doesn't love svn? ;)
- [22:02:35] <Jonnay>
darcs snobs...
- [22:03:57] <_fil_>
RobertBachmann: is this the URL. http://rbach.priv.at/hAtom2Atom/hAtom2Atom-HEAD.xsl
- [22:04:22] <_fil_>
google gives me my own site :-\
- [22:05:31] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
- [22:05:46] * DanC tunes in...
- [22:06:26] <DanC>
briansuda, are you around? did you see my msg about GEO and ;s?
- [22:06:44] <RobertBachmann>
_fil_, yes
- [22:06:50] * DanC wishes for bandwith to study hAtom2Atom.xsl
- [22:08:03] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.gen.twtelecom.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:09:00] <briansuda>
yes, i did get the GEO issue, i wonder if it effects all multi ';' items like ADR, etc...
- [22:11:26] <KevinMarks>
brian, that x2v Z timezone fix looks good - any idea on the encoding issue ?
- [22:12:01] <KevinMarks>
http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcal.php?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fopenrightsgroup.org seems to be treating utf-8 as 8859-1
- [22:12:12] <DanC>
timezone fix?
- [22:12:34] * DanC planned to really tune in at this time, but finds himself with other stuff that can't wait
- [22:12:46] <KevinMarks>
there was an issue with a 'Z' timezone not padding wiht seconds
- [22:13:12] <DanC>
hmm... makes me wonder about test materials.
- [22:13:38] <DanC>
Brian and I set up a CVS director on dev.w3.org but never got around to using it. I gather there's SVN on microformats.org somewhere. I'm game to use that.
- [22:14:02] <DanC>
(I'd actually rather use mercurial/ht, but that's another story)
- [22:14:03] <kingryan>
there's supposed to be, but I've been slow to get it going
- [22:14:09] <DanC>
mercurial/hg, rather
- [22:14:12] <kingryan>
(svn, that is)
- [22:14:50] <DanC>
if svn isn't set up, wanna try mercurial? it needs no server.
- [22:15:01] <DanC>
well, it needs a server from each person, but no shared server
- [22:15:14] <kingryan>
how do you share code, then?
- [22:15:15] <briansuda>
KevinMarks: the issue is with Tidy (not a big supprise) http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/tidy?docAddr=http%3A%2F%2Fopenrightsgroup.org%2F mangles the text X2V just interprets that
- [22:15:35] <KevinMarks>
grr
- [22:15:37] <DanC>
you share p2p. hg pull http://joe.example/his-stuff
- [22:15:45] <kingryan>
hmm
- [22:16:12] <kingryan>
I kinda like the idea of having an authoritative repo available on the web
- [22:16:30] <DanC>
http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi
- [22:17:24] <KevinMarks>
well, that gets the Content-Type right in the HTML header, just not in the meta
- [22:17:32] <DanC>
wow... I spend all my time trying to figure out how to decentralize stuff. authority is a royal pain to manage. ;-)
- [22:17:56] <kingryan>
right, but what if joe schmoe wants to find the latest, good code?
- [22:17:56] <KevinMarks>
iirc, the one in the HTML Header is supposed to be more authoritative
- [22:18:00] <DanC>
er... you guys are aware that http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/tidy could go poof at any time, yes?
- [22:18:21] * kingryan wasn't
- [22:18:26] <DanC>
it's a weekend hack of mine. I think one of our systems guys likes it, but it's not like we guarantee it'll be around.
- [22:18:44] <DanC>
we do publish the code and welcome others to install it.
- [22:19:02] <kingryan>
well, brian's hosting setup doesn't allow him to run tidy, so that's what he's got for now
- [22:19:40] * DanC knows how to bring the microformats world to its knees now. BWAAHAHAHA. ;-)
- [22:20:15] * kingryan points to http://feeds.technorati.com/[contacts|events]/
- [22:20:25] <kingryan>
BWAAHAHAHAHA
- [22:20:33] <DanC>
feeds.technorati doesn't depend on cgi.w3.org ?
- [22:20:37] <kingryan>
nope
- [22:20:40] <DanC>
ah. good.
- [22:20:49] <kingryan>
libtidy in php
- [22:21:12] <KevinMarks>
ryan, did you pick up the x2v fix there>
- [22:21:14] <KevinMarks>
?
- [22:21:27] <kingryan>
which fix?
- [22:21:30] <DanC>
briansuda, what do you use for version control for X2V, anything?
- [22:22:04] <KevinMarks>
loooks liek no
- [22:22:42] <DanC>
jibot, KevinMarks?
- [22:22:47] <KevinMarks>
the change brian made yesterday to fix the ORG hCard bug
- [22:22:47] <briansuda>
no i'm really bad at that, i just have old copies, nothing is checked-in/out (partly because i recently swicted mahcines, partly because there is to be an MF SVN - but i really should - along with some regression tests)
- [22:23:07] <DanC>
hg can be used completely locally, then exported over http later.
- [22:23:37] <DanC>
you don't use any version control. wow. I have checked in every line of code I have written since... 1990, probably.
- [22:24:00] * DanC admits to being a closet librarian
- [22:25:35] <DanC>
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2005/mfcode/ is still available if you/we want to use it. Brian's ssh key is installed. I can get other keys installed (sometimes in a few minutes, sometimes a few days)
- [22:25:45] <briansuda>
i normally use SVN, but X2V has been handled over too many different (very old) machines
- [22:26:17] <DanC>
hg is _great_ for hacking on many machines. it's totally p2p. no machine is the master. you can commit from anywhere.
- [22:26:34] <briansuda>
i still have all the w3c CVS info, we can certainly start there, and/or get the MF SVN up, i know afew people want to checkin their test files as well.
- [22:27:02] <_fil_>
hatom2atom.xsl now asks for uri.xsl ?
- [22:27:19] <Jonnay>
maybe its casue I am a control freak, but I like the central repository idea... ;)
- [22:27:22] * _fil_ reads the comments :(
- [22:27:30] <DanC>
hmm... I think I take back "a few minutes". our systems guys require folks to create an account. it's not too bad once you know how to do it, but learning tends to be painful.
- [22:28:43] <_fil_>
ok found it
- [22:28:45] <DanC>
central repositories suck if you want to code on a plane. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/96 "Mercurial totally revolutionizes coding on a plane."
- [22:30:22] <Jonnay>
Mmm. Never thought of that.
- [22:31:28] <DanC>
if joe schmoe wants to find the latest good code, he follows his nose. microformats.org can have one hg repository; that could be the "master" in some sense. but joe can pull from my repository, even though I can't commit to microformats.org
- [22:32:24] <DanC>
you can also set up hg to work like svn or cvs, with a central server and ssh keys and all that hassle.
- [22:32:35] <DanC>
(well, so say other people; I haven't done that.)
- [22:33:13] <kingryan>
so, with hg you can publish the files to an http-accessible directory as flat files?
- [22:34:03] <DanC>
er... you can, by checking them out. And you can have a hook script that checks out on commit...
- [22:34:19] <DanC>
... but to get the p2p effect, you have to run a cgi or a long-running hg process
- [22:34:39] <kingryan>
ok
- [22:34:39] <DanC>
in addition to hg commit and hg log and such, there's hg server
- [22:34:43] <DanC>
er... hg serve
- [22:34:49] <kingryan>
hmm, ok
- [22:35:34] <DanC>
there's also hg export and import, for mailing patches around.
- [22:35:53] <DanC>
and hg bundle, for mailing compressed binary patchsets.
- [22:35:56] * kingryan is looking at `hg pull`
- [22:36:01] <DanC>
mailing/storing/whetever
- [22:36:21] * limbo_ (n=me@h-67-103-44-6.snfccasy.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:36:21] <jibot>
limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
- [22:36:44] <briansuda>
i'm certainly willing to give it a go! i have pretty poor access to the internet, i'd but out of the system for most of the time
- [22:36:58] <briansuda>
i'd [be] out...
- [22:37:23] <bewest>
nifty
- [22:37:25] <kingryan>
danc, why'd you choose hg over svk?
- [22:37:42] * _fil_ has finished a hAtom2Atom plugin for SPIP
- [22:37:47] * _fil_ happy
- [22:37:48] <DanC>
svk still requires a central server. you can't commit from a plane, as I understand it.
- [22:38:00] * DanC fires up "hg serve" on one of his repositories... http://dm93.org:8000/
- [22:38:23] <DanC>
svk feels like a hack on top of a kludge, to me.
- [22:38:41] * scottjungling (n=scottjun@sjc.CSUChico.EDU) has left #microformats
- [22:39:03] <kingryan>
hmm, I think I'd be willing to have a try at hg
- [22:39:04] <bewest>
DanC: you've used hg since 1990ish?
- [22:39:22] <DanC>
no, I've only used hg for a few months. I've used rcs/cvs/ssh since 1990
- [22:39:28] <kingryan>
I'm fed up with trying to get svn to work with our existing setup (trying to auth against mediawiki's user table)
- [22:39:41] <DanC>
but hg is used for some big projects, like that virtualization thing... xen?
- [22:40:10] <kingryan>
so, DanC, how would we set it up to have you merge your code into the 'central' repo?
- [22:40:32] <DanC>
the easiest way is: I don't. you do. you pull my changes.
- [22:40:39] <kingryan>
ah, ok
- [22:40:46] <RobertBachmann>
kingryan, Mediawiki stores it's passwords in a very sick way, might be the cause for trouble
- [22:40:54] * bear_afk is now known as bear
- [22:41:04] <DanC>
next easiest is: you put my ssh key in a magic place that lets me do: hg push ssh://microformats.org/blahblah
- [22:41:07] <kingryan>
yeah, RobertBachmann, but photomatt has gotten it working elsewhere and tried to get it setup that way for mf.org
- [22:41:08] <RobertBachmann>
its*
- [22:41:18] <kingryan>
that's reasonable, DanC
- [22:42:04] <RobertBachmann>
without chaning the wiki source code?
- [22:42:09] <kingryan>
yeah
- [22:42:20] * kingryan needed an odd build of mod_auth_mysql, though
- [22:42:25] <kingryan>
which we can't get working on our setup
- [22:43:43] <DanC>
re mediawiki and auth foo... how about you scrap it and use openid or sxip/dix? (yes, I'm a troublemaker ;-)
- [22:44:07] <kingryan>
how about you add about 12 hours to the day
- [22:44:12] <kingryan>
and make me better looking, too
- [22:44:20] <DanC>
coming right up!
- [22:44:21] <Jonnay>
I'd like a pony...
- [22:44:21] <DanC>
;-)
- [22:44:22] <kingryan>
and I'd like to lose 10 lbs
- [22:44:59] <_fil_>
it's kind of easier to admit that you'll add svn commiters one by one in a flat file
- [22:45:04] * DanC really wants to play with mediawiki and openid or sxip; has almost found time for it
- [22:45:37] <kingryan>
alright, I'm willing to give hg a try instead of svn for mf.org
- [22:46:17] <kingryan>
which means, briansuda you could go ahead an put x2v in your own hg instance, then once I get it running on mf.org, we can get a workflow going for merging changes in
- [22:46:47] <DanC>
cool...
- [22:46:55] * DanC noodles on running hg...
- [22:47:05] <briansuda>
not a prob, i downloaded and installed hg on my machine
- [22:47:12] <kingryan>
great
- [22:47:15] <_fil_>
RobertBachmann: I've had to copy hatom2atom @ http://zone.spip.org/trac/spip-zone/browser/_plugins_/hatom2atom
- [22:47:28] <_fil_>
works like a charm :)
- [22:47:28] <briansuda>
i am now wondering if my NAT is going to be a prob for people to pull from me, i can always PUSH to the server
- [22:47:37] <DanC>
hmm... I could just use dm93.org ... though that's not backed by w3c systems folks... hmm...
- [22:47:55] <kingryan>
yeah, briansuda, I could get you an ssh-key setup with mf.org
- [22:48:36] <briansuda>
great, this sounds like a plan!
- [22:49:19] * RobertBachmann looks at http://zone.spip.org/trac/spip-zone/browser/_plugins_/hatom2atom/hatom2atom.php
- [22:49:19] * kingryan wonders if his office hours will be this productive each week
- [22:51:42] * DanC grabs http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/release/mercurial-0.8.tar.gz , installs in ~ on homer.w3.org ...
- [22:51:44] * _fil_ has to add credits for the XSLT sheet
- [22:51:53] <_fil_>
in the plugin credits
- [22:52:57] <DanC>
phpht. python-dev not installed on homer.
- [22:53:24] <kingryan>
DanC, do you run one of these: http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/MergeProgram ?
- [22:53:49] <DanC>
uh... no, not really. but I use the hg view extension. it's wicked cool.
- [22:54:01] <kingryan>
view extension? emacs?
- [22:54:25] <DanC>
no, it uses tk to draw a graph of the version history and let you navigate around point-and-click style
- [22:54:36] <kingryan>
oh, cool
- [22:54:42] <DanC>
it's based on some git view tool
- [22:54:58] <DanC>
(i.e. linux kernel hacker's tool)
- [22:57:36] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:58:26] <_fil_>
RobertBachmann: I don't know the license you're using (I mean, I don't have time to read it properly); is it ok for me to put a GNU/GPL license on the plugin that, basically, exploits the XSLT file (while retaining your license on the XSLT file itself, of course)
- [22:58:28] * karlUshi (n=karl@sd1u209254.ocv.ne.jp) Quit ("Mooooo in another space")
- [22:58:47] <_fil_>
or should I license the plugin with the same license?
- [22:58:50] <DanC>
hmm... I guess I'll use dm93.org for today; one nice thing about hg is that moving is pretty painless.
- [22:59:29] <kingryan>
I think I can dig this (hg, that is)
- [22:59:48] <briansuda>
my commit keeps "transaction Abort"ing
- [23:02:49] <DanC>
ok, I did wget on xhtml2vcard.xsl and uri.xsl and committed and pushed to dm93.org. see http://dm93.org:8000/
- [23:03:22] <DanC>
transaction abort? hmm.. is there a python traceback?
- [23:03:33] * DanC doesn't recall seeing that
- [23:04:06] <briansuda>
i commit and it opens VI i :wq and it says "Transaction Abort!" "Rollback completed"
- [23:04:14] <briansuda>
let me restart and see - brb
- [23:04:20] <DanC>
did you put anything in the changelog?
- [23:04:29] <DanC>
I suppose that if you don't, it thinks you didn't mean to commit
- [23:04:44] * DanC usually does: hg commit -m 'blah blah'
- [23:04:52] <DanC>
or I use an emacs mode
- [23:05:31] <DanC>
I really like mercurial.el , though I sometimes forget to set my PATH right before starting emacs, and I get hosed.
- [23:07:23] <RobertBachmann>
_fil_, the license should be compatible with the GPL http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html#GPLCompatibleLicenses
- [23:07:25] * DanC kills http://dm93.org:8000/ for a minute...
- [23:07:28] <_fil_>
great
- [23:09:13] <RobertBachmann>
The FSF links to http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/copyright-software-20021231 while hAtom2Atom links to an older version: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/copyright-software-19980720, but that shouldn't
- [23:09:13] <RobertBachmann>
be a problem in your case.
- [23:09:21] * DanC restarts http://dm93.org:8000/
- [23:14:00] * pnhChris is now known as pnhAway
- [23:18:18] <kingryan>
nice `hg merge` pulls up up FileMerge.app
- [23:20:07] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
- [23:20:16] <DanC>
so... any other hg peers available?
- [23:20:22] * DanC is headed out in a few minutes
- [23:20:33] <kingryan>
I'll get one setup on mf.org
- [23:20:38] <kingryan>
and I have one setup locally
- [23:20:46] * LTjake_ (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
- [23:21:12] <DanC>
hg supports rename and move and such... but there are probably directory-structure discussions to have.
- [23:21:23] <DanC>
tests in the same repository? different repository? etc.
- [23:21:53] <DanC>
for reference, my repository starts with: changeset 0: 5fe0513475fb
- [23:22:13] <DanC>
(no matter where I move it, that should stay the same.)
- [23:25:19] <DanC>
ok, http://dm93.org:8000/ seems to be still running, after I logged out.
- [23:27:14] * trovv (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit ()
- [23:27:15] <kingryan>
cool
- [23:27:23] <kingryan>
I dunno re directory naming
- [23:27:31] <briansuda>
i'll test a few more things tonight clean-up my directory
- [23:27:35] <kingryan>
we might as well put the code and tests in the same repo
- [23:27:52] <briansuda>
do we want to split the repo for each MF?
- [23:28:02] <briansuda>
or by implementation?
- [23:28:36] <kingryan>
by mf, 'cause the implementations of a given mf will invariably share code
- [23:28:48] <kingryan>
(for example, xslt's)
- [23:29:03] <briansuda>
that's fine, i just wanted to ask
- [23:29:19] <DanC>
ah... got python-dev on homer, so now I have another peer: http://homer.w3.org:8123/
- [23:30:20] <DanC>
I guess I prefer one repository for all the code, until we find a reason to do otherwise. But I don't feel strongly.
- [23:31:36] <DanC>
note the friendly rss buttons :)
- [23:32:06] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
- [23:32:21] * DanC takes http://dm93.org:8000/ down in favor of http://homer.w3.org:8123/
- [23:32:23] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N151P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving")
- [23:32:45] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ()
- [23:37:06] <jibot>
WildFox is Mr. KDOM. Co-author of kdom, ksvg and kcanvas.
- [23:40:50] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
- [23:45:44] <DanC>
I sent mail to mf-dev about this hg stuff
- [23:45:48] <DanC>
I'm late for dinner now.
- [23:45:55] <kingryan>
ok, bye DanC
- [23:46:00] <DanC>
kingryan, same bat time next week?
- [23:46:12] <kingryan>
not next week, but usually
- [23:46:16] <DanC>
cool.
- [23:46:25] <kingryan>
(hence the reason I told you no to make it recurring :D)
- [23:46:39] <DanC>
:)
- [23:54:11] <kingryan>
I'm at http://www.umbriacom.com/aaai2006_weblog_symposium/ next week
- [23:55:25] <kingryan>
so, I won't be around on wednesday
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