IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-04-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [02:22:37] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [02:22:56] <tantek>
hidden data - no
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- [02:47:47] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5758 * Tantek * (+1042) added some comments
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- [03:17:31] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [03:25:18] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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- [03:42:40] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5759 * Brian * (+561) Summary -
- [03:50:51] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5760 * Brian * (+481) Summary -
- [04:07:07] <tantek>
hey briansuda
- [04:07:34] <tantek>
sorry i couldn't make the citation irc meetup
- [04:07:58] <tantek>
but it sounds like *a lot* of well established microformats process was ignored, much to the discussion's peril i'm afraid
- [04:09:08] <tantek>
making a statement like "we have closed on the exploration phase of the citation microformat" without cleaned up and clear citation-examples, citation-formats, and citation-brainstorming pages shows a clear disconnect
- [04:10:08] <tantek>
this is a very bad thing, *especially* for a *citation* microformat, since the history of citation formats is littered with failed efforts
- [04:10:31] <briansuda>
i agree, and i have alot of clean-up on those pages
- [04:10:38] <tantek>
if anything, it behooves us as a community to take *particular* care at being more clear and formal in the pursuit of a citation microformat the rest of the community as a whole to take it seriously at all
- [04:11:03] <tantek>
brian, if you agree, then how can you write a statement like "we have closed on the exploration phase of the citation microformat"?
- [04:11:04] <briansuda>
what would you suggest then?
- [04:11:21] <tantek>
sticking to the established microformats process
- [04:11:42] <tantek>
having bluesky/strawman discussions one afternoon on an irc channel is insufficient
- [04:12:57] <tantek>
actually, i would say that doing development without first cleaning up those pages is going to waste a lot of time
- [04:13:14] <tantek>
citation formats already have a lengthy period of experimentation without good results
- [04:13:24] <tantek>
the problem isn't that we need more experimental development
- [04:13:53] <tantek>
the problem is that we actually have to follow some semblance of process and documentation in order to show why *this* citation format will do better than so many attempts before it
- [04:14:03] <tantek>
otherwise it is simply different actors, same old play
- [04:14:28] <briansuda>
so how would you suggest we proceed then? i am planning on a masive clean-up of the wiki, but then what?
- [04:14:46] <tantek>
it will become apparent from the clean-up
- [04:15:09] <tantek>
a good set of examples will lead to an 80-20 of a schema
- [04:15:31] <tantek>
a good set of researched formats will provide a good source of names for the properties in the schema
- [04:15:59] <tantek>
then, and only then, will there be sufficient research to provide decent brainstorming proposals for a citation microformat
- [04:16:05] <briansuda>
the example page as it stands now is 21 pages long printed
- [04:16:25] <tantek>
until then, people are just making up what the 80/20 schema is based on whatever assumptions are in their head
- [04:16:35] <tantek>
instead of based on empirical data of what people actually publish on the web
- [04:17:01] <tantek>
and same problem with naming the class names in any straw proposal
- [04:18:19] <tantek>
I just looked at the citation-example page and it fails to provide per-example schema analysis
- [04:18:32] <tantek>
so there is still work to do there, beyond just "clean-up"
- [04:19:43] <tantek>
the so called "Implied Schema" section at the end is not that at all
- [04:20:01] <tantek>
it is an exercise in trying to document names used by the examples, which is not the purpose of the examples at all
- [04:20:22] <briansuda>
no, example gather publish data.
- [04:20:25] <tantek>
also, a summary "implied schema" section should be written up *after* the implied schema for each example is documented, not before
- [04:21:06] <tantek>
brian, look at "Book Titles:" for example
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- [04:21:29] <briansuda>
alot of non-sense
- [04:21:35] <tantek>
it says things like id="title", class="producttitle", class="title" - that is not an "implied schema"
- [04:21:47] <tantek>
that is simply a documentation of various names
- [04:22:44] <tantek>
the *good* thing about the citation-examples page is that at least there *are* real examples there with markup, and someone just needs to do implied schema analysis on them
- [04:24:00] <briansuda>
i'll clean that-up and list out the properties within each example, explicitly
- [04:24:27] <tantek>
both resume-examples and media-info-examples contain per-example implied schema analysis and documentation. though they do so in different styles, they are still useful.
- [04:24:32] <tantek>
thanks brian
- [04:25:03] <briansuda>
not a problem, i'm trying to wrangle this into something solid, but there is alot of previous formats and alot of cooks in the kitchen
- [04:25:12] <tantek>
and that's part of my point, it actually doesn't make any sense arguing about / discussing what should and should not go into a citation microformat without first doing (and documenting) that per-example implied schema analysis
- [04:25:16] <briansuda>
i would like to keep things moving as bes possible
- [04:25:37] <tantek>
the answer to "there is a lot of previous formats" is to simply document them all on the citation-formats page. full stop.
- [04:26:24] <tantek>
the point of the process is to also help with the alot of cooks in the kitchen bit - by providing concrete next steps to take in research and documentation, it gives lots of people the ability to jump in a contribute to moving the microformat forward harmoniously
- [04:26:35] <briansuda>
agreed, and the formats page as over 10 different formats... probably 60% of each is useless for a simple microformat
- [04:27:21] <tantek>
keeping things moving is only a good thing if they are moving in a good direction. otherwise movement can actually be backwards
- [04:27:59] <tantek>
brian, the purpose of the formats page is *not* to try to pick just one format to base a microformat off of, the purpose of it is to make sure that we've done our homework, and considered various different sets of names for things.
- [04:28:37] <briansuda>
yes, the formats are all there so we certainly don't miss anything - we won't base anything off one or the other.
- [04:29:21] <briansuda>
some of those are VERY specific domains of which we don't need. The dublin core spent YEARS working on their, and have manage to pear it down pretty minimully
- [04:29:36] <tantek>
in this way, citations are quite different from contacts. there are a zillion (or 10+ as you said) citation formats, and no one of them has "won" or dominated the others (despite what their individual advocates claim). with contacts, it was easy in that vCard has trumped all other contact info standards
- [04:29:59] <tantek>
brian, but even dublin core has problems.
- [04:30:10] <briansuda>
agreed, i heard all about it today!
- [04:30:14] <tantek>
heh
- [04:30:49] <briansuda>
the examples will certainly get us a better idea of what IS being published and get property names.
- [04:31:00] <tantek>
we may want to consider documenting the set of citation and bibliography examples from the Chicago Manual of Style as well
- [04:31:17] <briansuda>
i think citation folks are chomping at the bit to get something to itterate off of.
- [04:31:36] <tantek>
like I said, eagerness to experiment and iterate has not been the problem here
- [04:32:07] <tantek>
if we really want a format, rather than just another set of experiments (which history has shown most of this to be), then we need to more than just experiment.
- [04:32:41] <briansuda>
hopefully, the documentation/examples will help us as well
- [04:33:09] <briansuda>
did the other comment about the usefulness of having a sort of SELF make sense?
- [04:41:03] <tantek>
that is an interesting idea indeed
- [04:42:23] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5761 * Tantek * (+7)
- [04:42:43] <tantek>
though i'm not sure that's a sufficient reason to attempt to collapse the two models
- [04:42:51] <tantek>
that's a good reason to have a mapping
- [04:43:01] <tantek>
but the mapping is not necessarily the identity transform
- [04:48:39] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5762 * Brian * (-2843)
- [04:50:36] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5763 * Brian * (-964) Greenwood Press [http://www.greenwood.com/ home page] featured book -
- [04:55:42] <tantek>
brian, one thing to be careful about
- [04:55:56] <tantek>
the implied schema is not necessarily the *explicit* class or id names used in the markup
- [04:56:20] <tantek>
you have to look at the *contents* of the elements in question, analyze them (as best you can), and determine for yourself what the contents mean
- [04:56:34] <tantek>
they may not necessarily correspond to the class or id which is used
- [04:56:40] <briansuda>
right, just what they represent - one may call it sub_title, one alt-title, etc
- [04:56:49] <tantek>
this is why we call it *implied* schema, rather than *explicit* schema
- [04:56:53] <tantek>
correct
- [04:57:42] <briansuda>
i'll probably make a pass or two over the data, then do the schema.
- [04:57:59] <tantek>
the schema is implied by the *content*, not *explicitly* named by the class or ids. (although the class and ids may provide "hints" as to the meaning of the content)
- [04:58:12] <briansuda>
the reason this looks familiar is because i did this for each of the exisiting formats
- [04:58:14] <tantek>
brian, difficult to do a pass or two when you delete the original markup
- [04:58:37] <tantek>
you may want to consider keeping the markup there and *adding* the implied schema analysis
- [04:58:47] <tantek>
similar to what Ryan did with the resume-examples page
- [04:58:49] <briansuda>
no, i meant clean-up up the names
- [04:59:35] <briansuda>
some are lBlsubTitle, and sub-title, etc... i'll get them all into the same format 'subtitle' then do the implied schema
- [05:01:32] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5764 * Brian * (-12632) Greenwood Press [http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/GR2847.aspx Product detail page] -
- [05:04:38] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5765 * Brian * (-5539) /* Marshall Cavendish [http://www.marshallcavendish.com/marshallcavendish/academic/redirector.xml?url=/marshallcavendish/academic/catalogue/books/regionalism_n_regional_security/9812102108.xml product
- [05:06:24] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5766 * Brian * (-951) Oxford University Press (USA) [http://www.us.oup.com/us/?view=usa homepage] -
- [05:07:05] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5767 * Tantek * (+588) more comments. will rename page to better illustrate purpose and place within process.
- [05:08:11] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+6814) citation-recommendation moved to citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09
- [05:08:17] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5768 * Brian * (-1712) Oxford University Press (USA) [http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/HistoryAmerican/ColonialRevolutionary/?view=usa&ci=0195162471#Product_Details Product page] -
- [05:09:33] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5769 * Tantek * (-44)
- [05:10:14] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5770 * Brian * (-1047) Thomson Gale product detail page -
- [05:11:10] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5771 * Brian * (-1211) Book titles: -
- [05:11:36] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5772 * Brian * (-149) Book Series Name: -
- [05:11:57] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5773 * Brian * (-358) Sub-title: -
- [05:12:28] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5774 * Brian * (-453) Author: -
- [05:12:49] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5775 * Brian * (-469) Publication Date: -
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[[citation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5776 * Brian * (-269) Volumes: -
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[[citation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5777 * Brian * (-778) ISBN: -
- [05:13:37] <mfbot>
[[citation-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5778 * Tantek * (+78) added link to citation irc notes
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[[citation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5779 * Brian * (-88) Book Edition: -
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[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5780 * Brian * (-675) PubMed Medical Journal Example -
- [05:22:20] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5781 * Brian * (-3128) CiteULike.org citation listing -
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[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5782 * Brian * (-895) CiteSeer database search results -
- [05:27:18] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5783 * Brian * (-682) IEEE IEEExplore Search Results Markup -
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[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5784 * Brian * (-2147) ACM Digital Library Search Result Examples -
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[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5785 * Brian * (-3247) RFC vCard Example -
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[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5786 * Brian * (-7332) W3C XHTML Spec Example -
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[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5787 * Brian * (-1672) CiteProc XHTML Output -
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[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5788 * Brian * (-1094) Amazon.com citation info -
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- [06:18:16] <tantek>
brian, it is probably a good idea to keep the markup from which the implied schema are derived, at least on another page, if keeping it all inline is too much
- [06:18:24] <tantek>
perhaps citation-examples-markup
- [06:18:43] <tantek>
and then link to each markup fragment from the respective section in citation-examples
- [06:19:24] <tantek>
the goal is that anyone coming by later could reproduce the same analysis by looking at the same markup. if the markup is missing, then that is less likely to be possible, given that contents of pages change etc.
- [06:20:05] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5789 * Brian * (-1454) MAJOR RE-WRITE :: Implied schema corrected and Analysis constructed
- [06:21:10] <tantek>
consider the basic principles of scientific reproducibility
- [06:23:04] <briansuda>
good idea, i have also tried to leave the link to the original source document as well so people can retrieve that if need be.
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[[citation-examples-markup]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples-markup * Brian * (+55691) Original Example Markup to refer too
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[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5790 * Brian * (+2301) Linked back to markup example
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[[citation-recommendation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5791 * Brian * (+95) added reference link
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[[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=5792 * Brian * (+78) removed finished To Dos and added new ones
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[[citation-faq]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-faq * Brian * (+611)
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[[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=5793 * Brian * (-653) moved questions to its own page
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[[citation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=5794 * Brian * (+19) Authors -
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[[citation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5795 * Brian * (+19) Contributors -
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[[citation-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5796 * Brian * (+19) See also -
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[[citation-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-formats&diff=0&oldid=5797 * Brian * (+19) Citation Formats -
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[[citation-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-faq&diff=0&oldid=5798 * Brian * (+107) Questions -
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bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5799 * BDarcus * (+434) Summary -
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dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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cks is Christopher St. John and has a brain filled with inane drivel from irc chat logs
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- [13:13:08] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [13:14:52] * karlUshi (n=karl@sd1u209254.ocv.ne.jp) has joined #microformats
- [13:14:52] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
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- [14:08:18] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [14:09:36] <mfbot>
[[podcasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=podcasts&diff=0&oldid=5800 * Brian * (+296) Added link to web2.0 show
- [14:19:32] <mfbot>
[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5801 * AlfEaton * (+104) Additional elements for a journal article citation -
- [14:19:58] <mfbot>
[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5802 * AlfEaton * (-1) Additional elements for a journal article citation -
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[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5803 * BDarcus * (+640) Additional elements for a journal article citation -
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[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5804 * BDarcus * (-24) Additional elements for a journal article citation -
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- [15:54:51] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [16:01:37] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [16:02:09] <mfbot>
[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5805 * Tantek * (+768) comments
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- [16:14:38] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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- [17:19:08] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5806 * BDarcus * (+51) CiteProc XHTML Output -
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- [17:24:54] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5807 * BDarcus * (+148)
- [17:25:35] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5808 * BDarcus * (+20)
- [17:28:51] <mfbot>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=5809 * BDarcus * (+132) CiteProc XHTML Output -
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- [17:37:20] <DanC>
the MIT directory is crying out for hCard. http://web.mit.edu/bin/cgicso?query=alias%3DJ-hollenbach
- [17:43:04] * pecus (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [17:49:33] <tantek>
DanC, know anyone at MIT who might know who maintains that site?
- [17:50:55] <DanC>
umm... I know a random collection of MIT students and employees; any of them _might_ know the webmaster
- [17:52:28] * foolswisdom (n=lloyd@71-6-0-194-cust.telepacific.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:56:11] <Atamido>
I think Monty from Xiph dates one of the MIT IT folks....
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- [17:58:54] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [18:03:41] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [18:03:42] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [18:31:09] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5810 * Tantek * (+96) Examples in the wild -
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- [18:38:25] <mfbot>
[[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5811 * Tantek * (+294) added problems being solved notes
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- [18:46:56] <mfbot>
[[job-listing-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-examples&diff=0&oldid=5812 * Molly * (+371) Job Listing Examples -
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- [18:49:47] <mfbot>
[[process]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=process&diff=0&oldid=5813 * Tantek * (+744) added section on "other documents" including short text on patterns.
- [18:52:43] * Monody (n=vlarsen@244.80-202-20.nextgentel.com) has left #microformats
- [19:41:55] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=5814 * ScottReynen * (+157) Issues -
- [19:44:46] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=5815 * ScottReynen * (+160) Issues -
- [19:46:22] <mfbot>
[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5816 * AlfEaton * (+311) comment
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[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5817 * Ross Singer * (+346) Additional elements for a journal article citation -
- [20:00:50] <mfbot>
[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5818 * Ross Singer * (+12) Additional elements for a journal article citation -
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[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5819 * Ross Singer * (+340) Additional elements for a book citation -
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- [20:34:37] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [20:41:38] <DanC>
hmm... interesting... I factored the lexical stuff out of my iCalendar->RDF code, and the result works on .vcs files too.
- [20:41:52] <DanC>
http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/icslex.py
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- [20:42:16] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [20:55:28] <mfbot>
[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5820 * BDarcus * (+188)
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[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5821 * BDarcus * (+288) Additional elements for a journal article citation -
- [21:22:51] <kingryan>
anyone here know developers at meetup.org?
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- [22:57:19] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [23:03:39] * kingryan just pushed 32 changesets to http://hg.microformats.org/tests
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on
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