IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-05-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [10:06:27] * mflogbot (n=PircBot@213.235.239.37) has joined #microformats
  2. [10:06:27] * Topic is 'add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc || http://www.digital-web.com/articles/microformats_primer/ | Channel is logged: http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot'
  3. [10:06:27] * Set by TantekC on Sat Feb 25 20:49:23 CET 2006
  4. [10:06:27] <jibot> mflogbot is logging #microformats (http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot)
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  15. [10:50:03] * Topic is 'add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc || http://www.digital-web.com/articles/microformats_primer/ | Channel is logged: http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot'
  16. [10:50:03] * Set by TantekC on Sat Feb 25 20:49:23 CET 2006
  17. [10:56:42] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2466P031.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has left #microformats
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  21. [12:12:28] <trovster> If viewing a site on a mobile phone, is there anything you can do to import it into their address book, when they load the page?
  22. [12:19:03] <C9> it'd be dependent on the phone and how it sees contact data in general. Since I doubt any current phone has the concept of an hcard the best you could hope for was a vcard translation to mobile addy. [/gwag]
  23. [12:24:50] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  24. [12:28:40] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=6460 * ChrisCasciano * (-6073) reverting to remove spam
  25. [12:30:18] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  26. [12:38:39] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2496P030.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  27. [12:38:39] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
  28. [12:39:06] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) blocked "User:1148540542" with an expiry time of infinite: Spam
  29. [12:39:37] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:rest/property": spam
  30. [12:39:43] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "xfn-実装": spam
  31. [12:39:54] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:icalendar-implementations": spam
  32. [12:40:05] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:relpayment-research": spam
  33. [12:40:21] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:faq": spam
  34. [12:40:52] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) blocked "User:1148540466" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  35. [12:41:28] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:ap-feedback": spam
  36. [12:41:34] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:multilingual-examples": spam
  37. [12:41:40] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:vcard-errata": spam
  38. [12:42:11] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:hcalendar-irc-meetup-20060225": spam
  39. [12:42:42] <mfbot> [[vcard-errata]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-errata&diff=0&oldid=6461 * RobertBachmann * (-6073) Reverted edit of 1148540466, changed back to last version by Tantek
  40. [12:51:45] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2496P030.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving")
  41. [12:54:36] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) has joined #microformats
  42. [12:54:59] * kingryan (n=kingryan@wg.eicc.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  43. [12:54:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  44. [12:54:59] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  45. [12:55:25] * kingryan just finished presenting at www2006
  46. [12:56:50] <jcgregorio> w00t!
  47. [12:56:53] <jcgregorio> how did it go?
  48. [12:59:14] * gsnedders (n=geoffrey@host86-139-126-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  49. [12:59:14] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  50. [13:01:42] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.static.twtelecom.net) has joined #microformats
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  52. [13:12:44] <mfbot> [[presentations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations&diff=0&oldid=6462 * RyanKing * (+273) added www2006 tutorial
  53. [13:12:51] <kingryan> jcgregorio, it went really well
  54. [13:13:07] <kingryan> I was a bit nervous, because at the beginning, TBL was sitting in the first row!
  55. [13:13:24] <kingryan> but, his phone rang and he walked out after a few minutes
  56. [13:14:23] <gsnedders> I wish I could've got down to WWW2006
  57. [13:14:39] <gsnedders> but with school, no way for me to get there
  58. [13:17:44] * gsnedders (n=geoffrey@host86-139-126-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  59. [13:19:42] * briansuda (n=briansud@wg.eicc.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  60. [13:19:42] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  61. [13:26:28] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  62. [13:26:28] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  63. [13:35:37] * briansuda (n=briansud@wg.eicc.co.uk) Quit ()
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  67. [13:50:17] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  68. [13:53:17] * LTjake_ (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) has joined #microformats
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  72. [14:33:17] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
  73. [14:33:17] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
  74. [14:42:12] * tantek (n=tantek@ppp-71-139-115-36.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  75. [14:42:12] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  76. [14:42:38] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  77. [14:48:57] * tantek (n=tantek@ppp-71-139-115-36.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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  79. [15:06:36] * kingryan (n=kingryan@wg.eicc.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  80. [15:06:36] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  81. [15:06:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  82. [15:10:03] * briansuda (n=briansud@wg.eicc.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  83. [15:10:03] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  84. [15:15:50] * Remi (n=remi@c207.134.44-17.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  85. [15:18:24] <dglazkov> http://barcamp.org/hCamp
  86. [15:47:18] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  87. [15:47:18] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  88. [15:47:50] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  89. [15:49:51] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  90. [15:49:51] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  91. [15:52:29] * briansuda (n=briansud@wg.eicc.co.uk) Quit ()
  92. [16:03:26] * bear_afk is now known as bear
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  96. [16:32:56] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
  97. [16:32:56] <jibot> bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com
  98. [16:39:42] * kingryan (n=kingryan@wg.eicc.co.uk) Quit ()
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  100. [16:48:31] <mfbot> [[rel-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-faq&diff=0&oldid=6463 * Jweeks * (+0) FAQ -
  101. [16:48:37] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  102. [16:49:06] <factoryjoe> tantek: so...??
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  108. [17:08:26] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  109. [17:10:22] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2447P029.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  110. [17:10:22] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
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  114. [17:33:31] <dglazkov> Hixie -- will Wed night work for you?
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  116. [17:33:55] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  131. [19:29:46] <mfbot> [[vote-links-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links-faq&diff=0&oldid=6464 * Evan * (+0)
  132. [19:32:25] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  133. [19:32:38] * evan_ is now known as evanpro
  134. [19:32:54] <evanpro> that was me
  135. [19:33:11] <evanpro> So I'm bummed that my question about rel-tag was never answered
  136. [19:33:18] <evanpro> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-issues <-- on there
  137. [19:45:06] <KevinMarks> let me look
  138. [19:51:38] <KevinMarks> ah, that is deliberate
  139. [19:52:06] <KevinMarks> rel-tag can't really anticipate how otehr fromats might delineate taggable entities
  140. [19:52:14] <KevinMarks> so it is left open so they can specify it
  141. [19:52:29] <KevinMarks> see xfolk, hreview and hatom fro xamples of how this is done
  142. [19:52:35] <KevinMarks> and rel-directory too
  143. [19:52:44] * bear_lunch is now known as bear
  144. [19:56:02] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
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  146. [20:21:31] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  147. [20:32:55] <tantek> evanpro - yes, that is by design
  148. [20:33:28] <tantek> e.g. hCard, hCalendar, hReview, hAtom, xFolk all define tag association boundaries
  149. [20:34:54] <evanpro> is there an extractable pattern?
  150. [20:42:12] <tantek> there actually doesn't have to be
  151. [20:42:14] <tantek> the point is
  152. [20:42:19] <tantek> that even if you just treat it for the page
  153. [20:42:23] <tantek> it is semantically correct
  154. [20:42:40] <tantek> as *some content* on that page is tagged with that tag
  155. [20:42:55] <tantek> getting the extra detail on what in particular is an added bonus
  156. [20:43:11] <tantek> so if you need to do it generically, just treat it as page level and you'll be fine
  157. [20:43:22] <tantek> if you want to do something more with specific microformats, then do that
  158. [20:50:40] * gsnedders (n=geoffrey@host86-139-126-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  159. [20:50:40] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  160. [21:01:40] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) has joined #microformats
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  163. [21:40:52] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  164. [21:40:52] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  165. [21:46:51] * LTjake (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
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  179. [22:45:38] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
  180. [22:49:29] <RobertBachmann> hi pnhChris
  181. [22:54:26] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-6-43.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  182. [23:11:59] <pnhChris> RobertBachmann: heya
  183. [23:12:39] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit ("Leaving")
  184. [23:12:51] * bear is now known as bear_mtg
  185. [23:16:22] <RobertBachmann> pnhChris: Regarding multiple feeds in an XHTML document, I've thought about it today and requiring an XHTML id attribute for each hfeed seems to be only straightforward solution.
  186. [23:17:51] <pnhChris> .. .along with making hfeed required?
  187. [23:19:55] <pnhChris> and fairly strict parsing rules
  188. [23:20:29] <RobertBachmann> yes. Althought we could make an exception for pages for pages which contain only one feed, but this seems like introducing yet-another-special-case.
  189. [23:20:59] <pnhChris> the problem is that those exceptions blow up in your face when dealing with document changes over time
  190. [23:21:27] <pnhChris> you're just shoving the need to be specific down the line
  191. [23:22:00] <pnhChris> say i have a blog with a single hatom feed and no hfeed element...
  192. [23:22:27] <pnhChris> how do i add a link feed without disrupting everyone subscribed to the main feed
  193. [23:23:59] <RobertBachmann> yes that would be problematic. So no exception.
  194. [23:24:15] <pnhChris> /me is really beginning if the subscription use case can really be solved via embedded markup
  195. [23:24:25] <pnhChris> er
  196. [23:24:32] * pnhChris tests
  197. [23:24:34] <pnhChris> hmm
  198. [23:24:43] <pnhChris> ... is really beginning to wonder
  199. [23:26:00] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit ()
  200. [23:26:09] <pnhChris> saying there's no exception is great
  201. [23:26:39] <pnhChris> but then we're back to the problem of selecting and consuming based off of a specific fragment id
  202. [23:27:27] <pnhChris> and needing rules for when the url is incomplete or when things change
  203. [23:29:12] <pnhChris> i dunno.. i don't really have a great solution for that.. probably something that needs to be raised to the feed reader / browser / etc dev folks
  204. [23:29:19] <tantek> don't optimize for the parsers
  205. [23:29:24] <tantek> optimize for the publishers
  206. [23:29:38] <tantek> the exception is not an exception - it is actually the common case
  207. [23:29:42] <tantek> thus it is a shortcut
  208. [23:29:54] <tantek> ok, so what am I missing here
  209. [23:29:59] <pnhChris> sure, its the common case
  210. [23:30:03] <tantek> if there are multiple hfeed elements on a page
  211. [23:30:09] <pnhChris> but i can't surf without finding the other case as well
  212. [23:30:16] <tantek> then simply merge them into a single Atom feed with SOURCE semantics
  213. [23:30:19] <tantek> why is that so hard?
  214. [23:31:50] <RobertBachmann> ok I've got two hAtom feeds. One with title "Foo" and one with title "Bar" ... which title do I use for my atom feed?
  215. [23:32:18] <tantek> the combined atom feed represents a synthesis of all the feeds on the page
  216. [23:32:44] <tantek> thus it would be perfectly reasonable to synthesize the title of atom feed from the title of the page
  217. [23:32:54] <pnhChris> but that's not what i want to subscribe to
  218. [23:33:04] <tantek> you can pick
  219. [23:33:14] <tantek> if you just subscribe to the whole page, you get the synthesized combined feed
  220. [23:33:27] <tantek> if you subscribe to a specific frag id of an hfeed, then you get just that feed
  221. [23:33:34] <tantek> the point is that both make sense
  222. [23:33:41] <tantek> and that you can programmatically make both work
  223. [23:33:49] <tantek> I'm still not seeing the problem here
  224. [23:35:08] <pnhChris> if i subscribe to a "whole page" with one feed.. .and then someone decides to add a flickr feed or a podcast then what?
  225. [23:35:19] <tantek> then you get everything
  226. [23:35:26] <tantek> you can always change what you subscribe to later
  227. [23:35:45] <tantek> an intelligent aggregator would notice that your single feed that you subscribed to now has multiple sources
  228. [23:35:48] <tantek> and let you pick
  229. [23:35:56] <pnhChris> show me one
  230. [23:36:06] <pnhChris> i guess that's the issue for the most part
  231. [23:36:07] <tantek> we're talking about Atom 1.0 here folks
  232. [23:36:30] <tantek> lack of an implementation is no reason to corrupt a data format (or place unnecessary restrictions/requirements on publishers)
  233. [23:36:44] <tantek> this is using a feature in Atom 1.0 as it was meant to be used
  234. [23:36:58] <pnhChris> but as a publisher i can't publish under the current spec
  235. [23:37:00] <pnhChris> or
  236. [23:37:01] <pnhChris> well
  237. [23:37:03] <pnhChris> its pointless
  238. [23:37:03] <tantek> yes you can
  239. [23:37:05] <tantek> that's my point
  240. [23:37:07] <tantek> ?
  241. [23:38:09] <tantek> as a publisher, feel free to be as conservative/verbose as you want to be
  242. [23:38:17] <tantek> publish with explicit hfeeds with ids
  243. [23:39:22] <pnhChris> but if there's no meaningful way, or outline for a path for doing selection like that by a user ... that's my big hangup
  244. [23:40:03] <pnhChris> i konw we're early in this whole thing
  245. [23:40:13] <tantek> mark it up as semantically as you can
  246. [23:40:20] <pnhChris> and no one can auto discover anything and must be told these things exist
  247. [23:40:28] <tantek> there will inevitably be multiple attempts at good user interfaces for these things
  248. [23:40:35] <tantek> huh?
  249. [23:40:41] <pnhChris> i just see single feeds per page under the current spec as a workable solution
  250. [23:40:44] <pnhChris> right now
  251. [23:40:53] <tantek> just use traditional rel="alternate" links and point to the transform
  252. [23:41:00] <pnhChris> but have trouble bridging the gap to using multiple
  253. [23:41:02] <tantek> discoverability is a solved problem
  254. [23:41:23] <tantek> right, multiple feeds per page were design to be possible (via multiple hfeed elements)
  255. [23:41:37] <tantek> but postponed from v0.1 in order to solve the simple case first
  256. [23:41:56] <tantek> who has tried marking up their actual multifeed blog with hAtom and run across this problem?
  257. [23:42:02] <tantek> let's get the examples!
  258. [23:42:06] <pnhChris> um
  259. [23:42:12] <tantek> so we can use those to push hAtom v0.2
  260. [23:42:31] <pnhChris> i've got a pending example when i have time to redesign pnh
  261. [23:42:34] * briansud1 (n=briansud@82-41-20-200.cable.ubr03.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  262. [23:42:42] <tantek> awesome
  263. [23:42:44] <pnhChris> which uses a few random hfeeds
  264. [23:42:58] <pnhChris> but the plan is to wrap pages in feed elements ala chunkysoup
  265. [23:43:04] <pnhChris> but i don't have the time at the moment
  266. [23:43:16] <pnhChris> which is why i put together those short cases
  267. [23:43:27] * bear_mtg is now known as bear
  268. [23:44:36] <pnhChris> i also have avoided marking up the link feeds as hatom on chunkysoup because i'm not clear there would be much of a point
  269. [23:45:27] <pnhChris> which is why i brought up the question before
  270. [23:47:30] <RobertBachmann> I don't understand why it would be a problem for publisher to add <div class="hfeed" id="whatever">...</div>
  271. [23:48:16] <pnhChris> the worst case scenario as i saw it would be adding those feeds and having the current tools (in their infancy that they are) screw up what someone is subscribing to because of source order or some other rules they're (ok, well only the xlst file) are using
  272. [23:48:52] <pnhChris> but that's an author issue.. has little to do with the spec
  273. [23:49:02] <pnhChris> other then me wanting to see it more defined
  274. [23:51:20] <RobertBachmann> however joining all hfeeds into a single feed seems to be a better idea in comparision to just using the first hfeed (as the xslt does right now).
  275. [23:53:39] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=6465 * RobertBachmann * (+172) hAtom2Atom - Join hfeed's
  276. [23:55:39] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  277. [23:57:30] <RobertBachmann> IMO both multiple feeds and also nested hfeed's/hentry's aren't realy important for hAtom 0.2. We should solve the more basic problems first.
  278. [23:58:03] <pnhChris> tantek: if you take a spin through the examples i put together there are a few cases where we may need some explicit rules
  279. [23:58:20] <pnhChris> er... yeah.. roberts onto it
  280. [23:59:25] <pnhChris> or rules about using the body
  281. [23:59:28] <pnhChris> view-source:http://placenamehere.com/mf/hatom_tests/test_4c.html
  282. [23:59:43] <pnhChris> er
  283. [23:59:46] <pnhChris> not that one

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