IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:01:30] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
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  3. [00:13:49] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  4. [00:18:06] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  5. [00:18:06] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  6. [00:37:46] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
  7. [00:37:47] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
  8. [00:55:36] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl001-150-127.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  9. [00:55:37] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  10. [00:55:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  16. [01:35:10] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  34. [05:13:04] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
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  42. [06:27:15] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  43. [06:27:37] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  44. [06:36:25] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@ip68-8-170-38.sd.sd.cox.net) Quit ("http://devbee.com/")
  45. [06:37:34] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) has joined #microformats
  46. [06:37:35] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
  47. [06:40:48] * carmen (n=ix@c-24-91-185-85.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  50. [07:47:44] * Ciaran (n=ciawal@212.57.250.236) has joined #microformats
  51. [07:58:27] * McNulty (n=Ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  52. [07:58:27] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  53. [08:06:02] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  54. [08:06:03] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  55. [08:12:53] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  56. [08:14:09] * McNulty boggles at http://www.multipack.co.uk/members
  57. [08:15:12] <trovster> Why ya bogglin'?
  58. [08:15:29] <McNulty> because a designer sitting in the next room is on there
  59. [08:15:40] <McNulty> Weird coincidence!
  60. [08:15:42] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  61. [08:15:44] <trovster> Oh?! Whose that? And why aren't you on it then ;)
  62. [08:15:50] <McNulty> Tjobbe Andrews
  63. [08:16:03] <McNulty> well even though I'm from Stourbridge, I've lived in London for a fair few years now.
  64. [08:17:54] <trovster> But you're in Stourbridge at the moment?
  65. [08:18:14] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  66. [08:18:39] <McNulty> Nah
  67. [08:19:06] <trovster> Oh, he's in London too?
  68. [08:19:15] <McNulty> Yees, I think he moved down for the job.
  69. [08:19:22] <McNulty> Started about a month ago
  70. [08:20:13] <McNulty> Dunno whether to mention I've been cyber-stalking him ;-)
  71. [08:21:07] <trovster> aha, well we need people pruning from the list, he's not got a profile and not been to any meetings...
  72. [08:25:19] <McNulty> I'm only assuming it's the same Tjobbe Andrews
  73. [08:28:46] <McNulty> The new Tails extension seems to get confused about URLs
  74. [08:29:00] <McNulty> I think it only likes there being one
  75. [08:51:29] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@67-40-166-22.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ()
  76. [09:17:08] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  77. [09:17:08] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  78. [09:32:43] <mfbot> [[xoxo-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-ja&diff=0&oldid=7481 * IwaiMasaharu * (+1652) english: 16:45, 5 Jul 2006, 訳語の統一
  79. [09:34:22] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  80. [09:34:22] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  81. [09:34:39] <mfbot> [[User:IwaiMasaharu/english-to-japanese-map]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:IwaiMasaharu/english-to-japanese-map&diff=0&oldid=7482 * IwaiMasaharu * (+44)
  82. [09:39:25] <mfbot> [[xoxo-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-ja&diff=0&oldid=7483 * IwaiMasaharu * (+2) Patents - 日本語訳テンプレートに置き換え
  83. [10:01:02] <mfbot> [[xoxo-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-ja&diff=0&oldid=7484 * IwaiMasaharu * (+0) Copyright -
  84. [10:06:27] * stuup (n=stu@62-249-234-122.no-dns-yet.enta.net) has joined #microformats
  85. [10:08:08] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-ja]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-ja * IwaiMasaharu * (+31350) english: 08:51, 14 Jul 2006
  86. [10:09:49] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-ja&diff=0&oldid=7485 * IwaiMasaharu * (-30) 見出しの翻訳と日本語版テンプレートへの置き換え
  87. [10:17:00] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-ja&diff=0&oldid=7486 * IwaiMasaharu * (+97) 冒頭を翻訳
  88. [10:21:41] <mfbot> [[microformats-ja]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-ja * IwaiMasaharu * (+6388) english: 04:31, 23 Jun 2006
  89. [10:30:07] <mfbot> [[microformats-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=microformats-ja&diff=0&oldid=7487 * IwaiMasaharu * (+46) current microformats -
  90. [10:31:19] <mfbot> [[microformats-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=microformats-ja&diff=0&oldid=7488 * IwaiMasaharu * (+57) What are microformats? -
  91. [10:32:16] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  92. [10:32:16] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
  93. [12:26:26] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  94. [13:02:08] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) Quit ()
  95. [13:12:04] <mfbot> [[widget-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=widget-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7489 * KevinLawver * (-13) Specification Proposal -
  96. [13:17:39] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit ()
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  100. [13:26:37] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  101. [13:26:37] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  102. [13:26:52] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has left #microformats
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  104. [13:27:22] <pnhChris> .
  105. [13:28:00] * dc__ (n=dctanner@bb-87-81-165-34.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ()
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  107. [13:48:56] <drewinthehead> hey :)
  108. [13:49:57] <drewinthehead> been quiet in here the last couple of days
  109. [13:51:58] <pnhChris> shhh
  110. [13:52:29] <pnhChris> typing generates too much heat
  111. [13:52:33] <pnhChris> :P
  112. [13:54:26] <McNulty> yeah I checked the logs the other night and no-one said anything for a whole day
  113. [13:54:44] <drewinthehead> maybe there's nothing left to say?
  114. [13:55:05] <pnhChris> i can pimp my netnewswire scripts some more
  115. [13:55:21] <drewinthehead> naa, we've seen them already. old news ;)
  116. [13:55:37] <drewinthehead> have you had any feedback yet?
  117. [13:55:39] <McNulty> I looked at them and they seemed cool but I don't have newswire.
  118. [13:56:47] <pnhChris> i was hoping to get further along on some other stuff this weekend before work got heavy again, but not quite there
  119. [13:59:01] <McNulty> Is anyone here involved in the Tails extension?
  120. [13:59:11] <tantek> do you guys see anything on http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do that seems like something you could help out with?
  121. [13:59:20] <pnhChris> i don't use firefox or flock
  122. [14:00:00] <pnhChris> oo
  123. [14:00:07] <pnhChris> i can check off one of my items
  124. [14:00:17] <pnhChris> forgot i updated my list there
  125. [14:01:08] <McNulty> pnhChris - you're doing Apple vCard stuff right - how are you handling IM details?
  126. [14:01:40] <pnhChris> actually.. i just used technorati services for that NNW script
  127. [14:02:02] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=7490 * ChrisCasciano * (+112) Chris Casciano -
  128. [14:02:10] <McNulty> aah gotcha
  129. [14:03:12] <pnhChris> for my hatom stuff i included hatom2atom.xsl
  130. [14:03:27] <pnhChris> cause i didn't want to go out to another service for every refresh
  131. [14:03:39] <McNulty> see I noticed the hCard spec says IM should be referenced by IM
  132. [14:03:59] <McNulty> but Apple's Address Book, which has lots of IM fields, puts them in X-AIM etc. type fields
  133. [14:04:28] <McNulty> ugh "the hCard spec says IM should be marked up as URLs with appropriate protocols"
  134. [14:05:17] <McNulty> I think any Address Book specific app needs to do some sort of transform - I was thinking of writing a Safari script for hCard to dip my toe in the mF water
  135. [14:05:40] * McNulty hasn't looked at hAtom much yet
  136. [14:08:08] <tantek> McNulty, perhaps you can help document the Address Book vCard implementation quirks on this page: http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations
  137. [14:08:27] <tantek> X-AIM fields etc. are proprietary extensions to vCard and should be avoided
  138. [14:08:47] <tantek> we need to attempt to use and encourage the most standards based way to use hCard/vCard as possible
  139. [14:09:03] <tantek> and anything that is non-standard should be reported as a bug to the manufacturer(s)
  140. [14:09:31] <trovster> <dd class="role title">Web Developer</dd> correct?
  141. [14:10:16] <McNulty> tantek - OK but if I'm writing a tool specifically for Macs, 99% of users will be using Address Book so it might be worth taking into consideration.
  142. [14:11:08] <McNulty> i.e. Maybe a preferences setting that's off by default, something like that
  143. [14:11:28] <McNulty> 'Convert IM details for Address Book'
  144. [14:14:25] <McNulty> I'll update that page tonight when I'm back on my iBook - it seems to mainly be vCard->address book quirks, I'll document some of the reverse path quirks
  145. [14:14:58] <tantek> yes, an optional preferences setting could be good that was something like [x] Add Proprietary Properties for Apple Address Book
  146. [14:15:07] <tantek> awesome
  147. [14:15:15] <tantek> documentation of quirks will hopefully help us move beyond them
  148. [14:15:45] <McNulty> presumably the problem is that vCard doesn't have a real mechanism for handling these types of contacts
  149. [14:17:35] <tantek> it doesn't have to
  150. [14:17:44] <tantek> there are URL protocols that work for them
  151. [14:17:47] <tantek> that's the beauty of URL
  152. [14:18:01] <tantek> you don't have to invent new properties for each and every new way of contacting someone
  153. [14:18:04] <tantek> you can just use new URLs
  154. [14:19:35] <McNulty> Agreed, it's a shame most apps want URLs to be 'web pages'
  155. [14:20:21] <chucker_> is there an example of how AIM/MSN/etc. could be implemented properly in a vCard?
  156. [14:20:35] <McNulty> chucker - define 'properly'
  157. [14:20:42] <jibot> Hwin is horseygurl, trying to go undercover.
  158. [14:21:01] <chucker_> McNulty: properly := fulfilling tantek's desires :)
  159. [14:21:13] <McNulty> I've got my IM details at http://ciaranmcnulty.com/contact as URLs
  160. [14:21:41] <McNulty> but if you convert that to a vCard there's not many apps that can identify them as IM details.
  161. [14:22:16] <chucker_> so we want Apple's Address Book to read aim:goim?screenname=<somename> and treat it as AIM contact info
  162. [14:22:53] <chucker_> wonder if a third-party bundle could add that. <ponders>
  163. [14:23:29] <McNulty> chucker_ - you could write something that munged vCards into Address Book-style vCards and then imported them
  164. [14:23:47] <McNulty> tantek - Am I right in thinking that URLs can't have a 'type'?
  165. [14:24:13] <McNulty> That seems to be the main limitation IMO because some people will have home/work IMs and so on
  166. [14:24:16] <chucker_> yes, but that wouldn't help users who open a vCard like the one on your site. the user experience would be bad.
  167. [14:24:26] <McNulty> oh yes very much so
  168. [14:24:52] <McNulty> If you import that into AB, you get a load of 'website's
  169. [14:24:58] <chucker_> yep, tried it
  170. [14:25:00] <McNulty> admittedly clicking on them should then do something appropriate...
  171. [14:25:12] <chucker_> perhaps the URL scheme could be expanded to allow for types while still maintaining compatibility with IM clients
  172. [14:25:15] <McNulty> If you have the official clients installed and not for instance iChat :-/
  173. [14:25:28] <McNulty> URL schemes already allow types as protocols
  174. [14:25:38] <McNulty> It's just Apple have solved the problem a different way
  175. [14:25:48] <trovster> McNulty: I've done class="url msn" or example.
  176. [14:26:00] <McNulty> trovster - oh that's interesting
  177. [14:26:09] <chucker_> what i mean is: how can something like aim:goim?screenname=foo be expanded to specify e.g. "home"?
  178. [14:26:39] <McNulty> Maybe I should put my mailto: email address as a url too eh
  179. [14:27:14] <chucker_> (FWIW, 'open aim:goim?screenname=foo' in Terminal does the expected thing; it's just that Address Book buggily prefixes 'http://' to an aim URL when it shouldn't)
  180. [14:27:31] <McNulty> it opens iChat
  181. [14:27:32] <McNulty> ?
  182. [14:27:43] <McNulty> That's quite good
  183. [14:28:01] <chucker_> i don't have iChat associated with AIM URLs right now; it opens Adium, but it should work with iChat
  184. [14:28:45] <chucker_> the ymsgr URL opens the official Yahoo Messenger client, with an IM window of you
  185. [14:28:58] <McNulty> uh-huh
  186. [14:29:10] <McNulty> didn't realise Adium could handle those protocols TBH
  187. [14:29:50] <chucker_> Yahoo actually does the right thing and lets you specify the handler app in preferences; "When I click a Yahoo! Messenger link in my web browser, Open it with:", listing both Adium and Yahoo's client as options
  188. [14:30:46] * drewinthehead needs to chase Derek to see if he's had a chance to try the a.include test page in screen-readers
  189. [14:42:49] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=7491 * DrewMcLellan * (+446) New Person 2 -
  190. [14:43:03] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  191. [14:43:03] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  192. [14:43:04] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  193. [14:44:40] <mfbot> [[User:DrewMcLellan]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:DrewMcLellan&diff=0&oldid=7492 * DrewMcLellan * (+241) Drew McLellan -
  194. [14:45:06] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=7493 * DrewMcLellan * (+0) Drew McLellan -
  195. [14:53:13] <tantek> chucker_ see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples for more documentation of "proper" ways to markup IM etc.
  196. [14:54:06] * chucker_ points out who last edited it ;)
  197. [14:54:55] <tantek> :D - good point
  198. [14:55:05] <chucker_> :)
  199. [15:01:51] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  200. [15:06:31] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  201. [15:06:32] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  202. [15:14:40] * drewinthehead notes that he shouldn't be allowed to speak on panels as he's waay too boring
  203. [15:15:22] <trovster> Wanna speak at Geek in the Park?
  204. [15:16:49] <drewinthehead> i'm just listening to the audio from SXSW ... must ... stop
  205. [15:19:57] <drewinthehead> what sort of event is GITP, trovster?
  206. [15:20:13] <trovster> Social day, more 'geek dinner'-type evening.
  207. [15:20:20] <McNulty> where is ti?
  208. [15:20:25] <McNulty> it
  209. [15:20:27] <trovster> Leaminton Spa.
  210. [15:20:40] <trovster> Leamington Spa, Warwickshire.
  211. [15:20:47] <trovster> Details we put online a week today, hopefully.
  212. [15:21:12] <McNulty> ah, bit far for me
  213. [15:21:22] <trovster> no it's not!
  214. [15:21:26] <drewinthehead> did the date change? i'm not around that weekend
  215. [15:21:44] <drewinthehead> i thought i had it free ... perhaps i was looking at the wrong month
  216. [15:21:45] <trovster> drewinthehead: Yes, the date has changed about thee times!
  217. [15:21:46] <McNulty> what do you mean, no it's not :-)
  218. [15:21:57] <trovster> I travelled to WSG in London for the evening, from Stafford!
  219. [15:22:11] <McNulty> maybe I'm not as dedicated as you!
  220. [15:22:18] <drewinthehead> all roads lead to London ...
  221. [15:22:31] <trovster> Therefore all roads lead FROM London, too
  222. [15:22:38] <McNulty> woah.
  223. [15:22:51] <drewinthehead> zimmerframe tracs lead to Leamington Spa
  224. [15:23:14] <trovster> No, they stop in Kenilworth...
  225. [15:23:34] <trovster> Leamington has the worst nightlife crime for a town it's size in the country, or something like that!
  226. [15:23:57] <drewinthehead> that's the august bank holiday weekend, so you may find that people aren't around much
  227. [15:24:11] <drewinthehead> big festivals that weekend
  228. [15:24:31] * McNulty was planning to be in Brighton
  229. [15:24:55] <trovster> I originally planned NOT the reading-weekend... but :s
  230. [15:28:32] * amette (n=amette@pD9E69AF0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit ("keep havin' fun")
  231. [15:28:56] <drewinthehead> ah well :/
  232. [15:29:33] <drewinthehead> i'm thinking some time early October for a microformats dinner
  233. [15:30:00] <McNulty> in the Centre Of The Universe aka London?
  234. [15:31:27] <trovster> drewinthehead: cool
  235. [15:31:46] <drewinthehead> london is the easy choice
  236. [15:32:25] <drewinthehead> anything else typically involves people travelling through london
  237. [15:32:52] <drewinthehead> i've got my eyes on a microbrewery in blackheath
  238. [15:33:14] <McNulty> Zerodegrees?
  239. [15:33:15] <trovster> Aha, I heard that mentioned somewhere else :)
  240. [15:33:22] <trovster> If it's your area, then fine..
  241. [15:33:37] <drewinthehead> it's not my area
  242. [15:33:43] <drewinthehead> Reading would be better for me
  243. [15:34:02] <drewinthehead> yup, zerodegrees, McNulty
  244. [15:34:17] * amette (n=amette@pD9E69AF0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
  245. [15:34:20] <trovster> drewinthehead: Reading is easy to get to from London, and further north.
  246. [15:34:43] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@ip68-8-170-38.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  247. [15:34:57] <McNulty> I read a review of that place somewhere that said it was quite good, can't remember where
  248. [15:36:06] <drewinthehead> looking at the map, it's miles from anywhere .. down behind Greenwich park
  249. [15:36:33] <drewinthehead> perhaps not worth the effort for the humour value ;)
  250. [15:39:13] <drewinthehead> perhaps i'll post about it and make everyone voice their opinion through vote links.
  251. [15:44:36] <McNulty> It's handy for me if that matters, but I'm hardly core audience
  252. [15:45:10] * McNulty (n=Ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) Quit ("i <3 pork (http://dev.ojnk.net)")
  253. [15:47:20] * iwaim_g (n=iwaim_g@gnulinux.good-day.net) has joined #microformats
  254. [15:47:25] <drewinthehead> this article is amusing: http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/
  255. [15:49:52] <chucker_> indeed
  256. [15:49:57] <trovster> 'XML doesn�t have to be valid! That�s a deliberate design decision in XML.' -- really?
  257. [15:50:05] <drewinthehead> "why bother with microformats when you could publish some arbitrary XML and be done with it!"
  258. [15:50:22] <chucker_> "Some say invalidity is the real revolution in XML." o_O
  259. [15:52:38] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  260. [15:52:49] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  261. [15:56:58] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  262. [16:06:11] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  263. [16:06:51] <trovster> http://nicknettleton.com/zine/microformats/an-intro-to-microformats
  264. [16:12:11] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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  266. [16:19:41] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) has joined #microformats
  267. [16:19:41] <jibot> evanpro is Evan Prodromou, info at http://wikitravel.org/en/User:Evan
  268. [16:22:56] * stuup (n=stu@62-249-234-122.no-dns-yet.enta.net) Quit ()
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  270. [16:30:25] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) Quit ()
  271. [16:59:33] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  272. [16:59:34] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  273. [16:59:57] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  274. [17:02:59] <trovster> Argh, the tamworth site full of MF went live...
  275. [17:13:22] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  276. [17:13:50] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
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  278. [17:16:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  279. [17:30:07] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  280. [17:41:13] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  281. [17:41:13] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
  282. [17:43:54] * mraichelson (n=mraichel@c-68-55-231-217.hsd1.md.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  283. [17:55:38] <mfbot> [[User:IwaiMasaharu]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:IwaiMasaharu&diff=0&oldid=7494 * IwaiMasaharu * (+113) ツール -
  284. [18:00:00] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@ip68-8-170-38.sd.sd.cox.net) Quit ("http://devbee.com/")
  285. [18:01:22] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  286. [18:01:23] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
  287. [18:01:49] <mfbot> [[User:IwaiMasaharu/greasemonkey-user-scripts]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:IwaiMasaharu/greasemonkey-user-scripts * IwaiMasaharu * (+240)
  288. [18:19:50] * McNulty (n=ciaranmc@i-83-67-5-75.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
  289. [18:19:50] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  290. [18:21:10] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  291. [18:27:35] <McNulty> the phrase 'css class names' makes me want to scream
  292. [18:28:02] <drewinthehead> easy mistake to make
  293. [18:28:20] <drewinthehead> most people are only familiar with class used in combination with css
  294. [18:37:19] * McNulty (n=ciaranmc@i-83-67-5-75.freedom2surf.net) Quit ()
  295. [18:42:53] * lhalff (n=lhalff@adsl-67-113-14-165.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  296. [19:08:19] * stuup (n=stu@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.brhm.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  297. [19:10:13] * stuup (n=stu@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.brhm.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  298. [19:47:01] <qid> drewinthehead: some people insist on that even after being shown the spec :-\
  299. [19:56:14] <pnhChris> how can you style the alt tag? do you have to give it a css class name?
  300. [19:58:43] <chucker_> heh
  301. [20:45:17] <bewest> drewinthehead: were you looking for me earlier?
  302. [20:46:45] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
  303. [21:06:14] <drewinthehead> hey bewest
  304. [21:06:27] <bewest> afternoon :-)
  305. [21:06:35] <drewinthehead> i was just wondering what it was you were after in terms of a microformats2JSON service
  306. [21:07:08] <drewinthehead> i have lots of jigsaw pieces here - i may be able to put them together in the right order
  307. [21:07:08] <bewest> hmm
  308. [21:07:12] <bewest> :-)
  309. [21:07:29] <bewest> given a list of uri's, return some json to represent them
  310. [21:07:56] <bewest> I plan to put them on a map, and do other things
  311. [21:08:00] <bewest> automatically create timelines
  312. [21:08:01] <bewest> and maps
  313. [21:08:07] <bewest> and different interactive interfaces
  314. [21:08:33] <bewest> I have a website that automatically puts things on a map
  315. [21:08:48] <bewest> so if there was a service that output that kind of json, it'd be good to go immediately
  316. [21:08:58] <drewinthehead> ok, well i could do that with hCard for starters
  317. [21:09:01] <bewest> but I'm ok with building some of those services too... repeater services
  318. [21:12:47] <bewest> eventually will build <prorietary namespaced XML>2uformat
  319. [21:12:51] <mfbot> [[Main Page-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-ja&diff=0&oldid=7495 * IwaiMasaharu * (+3) 仕様 -
  320. [21:12:53] <bewest> like gdata2hcalendar
  321. [21:14:01] <bewest> drewinthehead: yeah, past two weekends I've spent trying to create dynamic user interfaces
  322. [21:14:16] <bewest> where the UI deduces what kind of interactions are available based on the input data
  323. [21:14:32] <bewest> and automatically provides a multiplexed interface to disparate sets of data
  324. [21:14:43] <bewest> might have misused the world multiplex
  325. [21:15:17] <drewinthehead> brb .. fish issues
  326. [21:15:45] * bewest wonders what fish issues would consist of
  327. [21:17:00] <tantek> bewest, that sounds pretty interesting
  328. [21:17:22] <bewest> tantek: the fish issue?
  329. [21:17:33] <bewest> oh the interfaces?
  330. [21:17:34] <tantek> like abstract bindings from particular rich data types to user interfaces
  331. [21:17:39] <bewest> yeah
  332. [21:17:43] <bewest> I'm very interested in it
  333. [21:18:05] <tantek> this paper presentation I attended at ICWE2006 showed some work on that
  334. [21:18:15] <bewest> I'm calling it "deduced visualizations of semantic markup using interactive interfaces"
  335. [21:18:38] <bewest> starting with microformats 'cause it's easy
  336. [21:18:51] <tantek> gimme a sec to pull it up...
  337. [21:19:03] * bewest tries to wait patiently
  338. [21:19:19] <tantek> http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/tags/rapidprototypingofwebapplicationscombiningdomainspecificlanguagesandmodeldrivendesign/
  339. [21:19:27] <tantek> (my longest tag ever :) )
  340. [21:19:36] * bewest noticed a couple of "deductive interface" in ACM search results
  341. [21:19:50] <tantek> you'll have to start from the "last" photo, as that was the first uploaded
  342. [21:20:01] <bewest> oh
  343. [21:20:14] * tantek has yet to figure out how to wrestle Flickr into displaying photos in more than just the default upload order.
  344. [21:20:22] <mfbot> [[Main Page-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-ja&diff=0&oldid=7496 * IwaiMasaharu * (+6) 他の言語に翻訳するのをお手伝いください！ - 句点の追加
  345. [21:20:27] <bewest> I've got two good starting points: 1. http://simile.mit.edu/timeline
  346. [21:20:39] <pnhChris> what order would that be tantek?
  347. [21:20:45] <pnhChris> you can sort by date taken
  348. [21:20:48] <bewest> could multiplex events into such an interface
  349. [21:20:52] <tantek> how about REVERSE?
  350. [21:20:56] <tantek> would that be so much to ask?
  351. [21:21:00] <pnhChris> but not sure any other options
  352. [21:21:06] <tantek> yeah
  353. [21:21:18] <bewest> 2.) is my website nearwhere.com
  354. [21:21:41] <bewest> anyone have one of those greasemonkey things installed?
  355. [21:21:53] <bewest> do those "microformat detectors" only work on the page's onload?
  356. [21:29:22] * valmont (n=chrishol@germany.pspdev.pas.earthlink.net) has joined #microformats
  357. [21:37:20] * drewinthehead has dealt with the fish issue
  358. [21:38:36] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("bye")
  359. [21:39:41] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  360. [21:40:23] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  361. [21:40:25] <drewinthehead> local temperatures got a bit too tropical for one of my little tropical friends.
  362. [21:43:24] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  363. [21:48:59] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.231-81.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  364. [21:48:59] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  365. [21:57:52] <kingryan> tantek: create a set
  366. [21:57:54] <kingryan> (on flickr)
  367. [21:59:41] <tantek> I don't want to have to manually create sets every-time I want a new sort order. Sort order changes should just be easily twiddlable things in the UI.
  368. [22:00:57] <kingryan> so, you wanna say "re-sort this.... oh, how do you say..... *set* of photos like this..."
  369. [22:01:24] <tantek> right, it should be in the URL
  370. [22:01:38] <tantek> as a modifier on the end or something
  371. [22:01:42] <tantek> oops
  372. [22:01:51] <tantek> ... /sortby/datetaken
  373. [22:02:03] <tantek> as a modifier on the end of the url
  374. [22:02:25] <kingryan> and you want that on the end of all urls?
  375. [22:02:28] <kingryan> with paging/
  376. [22:02:30] <kingryan> ?
  377. [22:04:41] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit ()
  378. [22:06:49] <tantek> just like the /in/pool- modifiers
  379. [22:07:05] <kingryan> well, they have date-taken
  380. [22:07:11] <kingryan> but you can't get that sorted the right way
  381. [22:07:12] <kingryan> http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/archives/date-taken/
  382. [22:07:33] <tantek> but I want that on a tag as well
  383. [22:08:05] <tantek> e.g.
  384. [22:08:08] <tantek> http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/tags/rapidprototypingofwebapplicationscombiningdomainspecificlanguagesandmodeldrivendesign/date-taken
  385. [22:08:22] <tantek> is that so much to ask?
  386. [22:08:35] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.static.twtelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  387. [22:15:13] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ("quittin' time")
  388. [22:15:18] * brianoberkirch (n=brianobe@adsl-065-005-209-171.sip.msy.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  389. [22:18:53] <KevinMarks> tantek, why is that one tag?
  390. [22:19:23] <KevinMarks> to work around flickr's inability to do AND ?
  391. [22:19:39] <tantek> no its a sort order thing, scroll-up Kevin
  392. [22:19:52] <tantek> flickr drops punctuation from tags anyway
  393. [22:20:07] <tantek> and spaces too
  394. [22:20:20] <tantek> and casefolds to lowercase
  395. [22:20:33] <tantek> so "Technology / Science" is normalized to .../tags/technologyscience/
  396. [22:20:49] <tantek> seems to work quite well IMHO
  397. [22:21:03] <tantek> (their tag normalization that is)
  398. [22:21:47] <bewest> things work quite well when what they do aligns with what you expect
  399. [22:22:07] <bewest> it's easy to expect "Technology / Science" normalizing to technologyscience
  400. [22:23:14] <tantek> of course "1/2" normalizing to "12" is perhaps not as expected ;)
  401. [22:23:26] <bewest> probably not
  402. [22:23:59] <bewest> I'd actually expect it to normalize to technology_\/_science
  403. [22:24:03] <KevinMarks> I mean 'rapidprototypingofwebapplicationscombiningdomainspecificlanguagesandmodeldrivendesign' is not really in the spirit of tags
  404. [22:24:25] * bewest is reminded he hasn't actually looked at it yet
  405. [22:24:49] <KevinMarks> or indeed web 2.0 - it needs a new name like AJYLE or something
  406. [22:26:05] <bewest> gah
  407. [22:27:22] <tantek> I know, I was pushing the limits
  408. [22:27:47] <tantek> though as a user that's kind of how I want metadata to work, just let me type in the chunks of info, and you (the machine) figure out which fields they're supposed to go in etc.
  409. [22:27:49] <KevinMarks> if I say 'not 80%' will you slap me?
  410. [22:27:55] <bewest> I think the limit broke and spilled its innards onthe sidewalk with that tag
  411. [22:29:06] <bewest> tags should have been "rapid prototyping", "web applications", "model driven design"
  412. [22:29:11] <bewest> maybe with "deductive interface"
  413. [22:29:23] <kingryan> tantek: perhaps you were looking for the title field?
  414. [22:29:31] <KevinMarks> "domain specific languages"
  415. [22:29:34] <bewest> yeah, that seems more like a title
  416. [22:29:38] <kingryan> you know, the one at the top that usually says something like IMG_04301
  417. [22:29:46] <tantek> no because it is not the title of the photo, it is the title of the presentation and thus applies to multiple photos
  418. [22:29:48] <kingryan> I don't think tantek believes in titles
  419. [22:29:58] <kingryan> oh, so it applies to a set of photos?
  420. [22:30:01] <bewest> yes
  421. [22:30:02] <tantek> yes, titles are overused/overloaded
  422. [22:30:13] <bewest> well, that's clearly a title though
  423. [22:30:21] <kingryan> so, the photos are logically groups into a collection with specific order....
  424. [22:30:26] <kingryan> hmm, sounds familiar
  425. [22:30:28] <hober> It's a title of a set :)
  426. [22:30:31] <tantek> creating a set with that name would not yield any prettier a URL
  427. [22:30:40] <tantek> they are isomorphic
  428. [22:30:41] <kingryan> but it would mean that I was right
  429. [22:30:48] <bewest> tantek: urls aren't titles either though
  430. [22:31:21] <tantek> kingryan, they are isomorphic, that's my point, except that tags are less work
  431. [22:31:30] <tantek> thus I just use tags
  432. [22:31:39] <tantek> the whole point of tags is "less work"
  433. [22:31:47] <tantek> that's the only difference between tags and keywords/categories
  434. [22:32:01] <tantek> the "lower cognitive load" aspect as Kevin would say
  435. [22:32:03] <kingryan> right, but sometimes, if you want things to work in a specific, non-default way, you have to *do work*
  436. [22:32:16] <kingryan> right, so take your tagged photos with that tag, and create a set!
  437. [22:32:44] <tantek> except that the set creation UI *still* has major problems
  438. [22:32:52] <tantek> like putting photos out of order by default
  439. [22:33:01] <bewest> yeah
  440. [22:33:03] <tantek> and manually reordering 100 photos is again more work
  441. [22:33:04] <kingryan> until you click "sort by date"
  442. [22:33:28] <tantek> but why should I have to even do that extra work *every* *single* *time* ?
  443. [22:33:37] <tantek> why not just support /date-taken
  444. [22:33:39] <tantek> ?
  445. [22:33:48] <tantek> it's such an obvious ordering
  446. [22:33:54] <kingryan> I'm just saying it'd be easier than bitchin in irc
  447. [22:34:10] <tantek> hmm....I think that violates some tenet of irc
  448. [22:34:24] <tantek> or axiom rather
  449. [22:34:28] <tantek> nothing is easier than bitching in irc, or some such
  450. [22:34:30] <tantek> ;)
  451. [22:35:03] <KevinMarks> heh
  452. [22:35:05] <kingryan> yeah, but you're bitching in the wrong channel
  453. [22:35:07] <kingryan> #flickr
  454. [22:35:15] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7497 * Gommit * (+104) Examples in the wild -
  455. [22:35:19] <KevinMarks> #oi, Cal, fix this
  456. [22:35:27] <hober> but the cognitive overhead of /join #flickr is too high! :)
  457. [22:35:31] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  458. [22:35:32] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  459. [22:35:47] <kingryan> that's right '/msg "flickr sucks"' is *easier*
  460. [22:35:51] <kingryan> and that's the whole point, right?
  461. [22:36:37] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7498 * Gommit * (-104) Examples with some problems -
  462. [22:37:02] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7499 * Gommit * (+104) Examples -
  463. [22:37:38] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7500 * Gommit * (-104) Examples -
  464. [22:38:05] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7501 * Gommit * (+104) New Examples -
  465. [22:41:31] * tantek goes to #flickr and relays message.
  466. [22:43:33] <tantek> ok, #flickr is one strange channel
  467. [22:44:38] <kingryan> wow, just reading this post by zeldman: http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/17/an-angry-fix/
  468. [22:44:52] * kingryan read all the way to the end
  469. [22:47:07] <hober> awesome
  470. [22:47:28] <hober> before hovering over the 'elsewhere' link, I guessed it'd go to whatwg
  471. [22:48:39] <bewest> hmm that Bjoern guy wrote a pie menu widget didn't he?
  472. [22:48:42] <bewest> I never could get it to work
  473. [22:48:55] <bewest> done in "literate programming" style
  474. [22:49:48] <kingryan> yeah, hober, me too
  475. [22:50:03] <kingryan> but, remember, whatwg is probably too geeky for even most web designers
  476. [22:50:34] <hober> *nod*
  477. [22:56:56] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@ip68-8-170-38.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  478. [22:57:21] <tantek> yes, Hixie and I had different focusses/foci
  479. [22:58:22] <tantek> I knew he wanted to focus on webapps/DOM (and I didn't), and he knew that I wanted to focus on making small simple purely declarative data formats work, and he wasn't much interested in those, though we've both taken a liking to each others' efforts.
  480. [22:59:02] <tantek> kingryan, yeah, that was a classic wake-up-call Zeldman post
  481. [23:00:37] <Hixie> man, w3c is even more fucked up than i thought it was
  482. [23:00:43] <Hixie> that's an amazing list of problems
  483. [23:02:52] <kingryan> what's most amazing is the time-scale of the problems
  484. [23:03:07] <kingryan> I mean, 1 1/4 years to produce a crappy svg of the logo?
  485. [23:07:46] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC85932A.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  486. [23:07:46] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  487. [23:07:46] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  488. [23:13:44] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@67-40-166-22.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  489. [23:31:35] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC85932A.ipt.aol.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  490. [23:31:56] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  491. [23:32:25] * tantek_ (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  492. [23:32:56] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC85932A.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  493. [23:32:56] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  494. [23:40:16] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  495. [23:44:47] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  496. [23:45:01] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  497. [23:55:12] <KevinMarks> http://cavlec.yarinareth.net/archives/2006/07/17/em-considered-harmful/
  498. [23:55:12] * brianoberkirch (n=brianobe@adsl-065-005-209-171.sip.msy.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  499. [23:55:15] <KevinMarks> interesting
  500. [23:55:28] <KevinMarks> bring back <i> and use class...
  501. [23:55:32] * brianoberkirch (n=brianobe@adsl-065-005-209-171.sip.msy.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  502. [23:56:47] <AdamCraven> page not loading ATM
  503. [23:57:03] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  504. [23:57:03] <AdamCraven> although, I'm not looking forward to reading it!
  505. [23:57:06] <KevinMarks> hm
  506. [23:57:17] <KevinMarks> I read it in her feed
  507. [23:57:22] * lhalff (n=lhalff@adsl-67-113-14-165.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()

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