IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

[00:01:02] <ajturner> I could embed hcard info in jibot
[00:01:02] <qid> do keep in mind that anyone not using a client that can process such data will despise you
[00:01:22] <ajturner> maybe this is where the picoformat idea comes into pay
[00:01:23] <ajturner> play
[00:01:34] <tantek> yes perhaps
[00:01:38] <ajturner> just things like - "going to the concert @ Giants Stadium"
[00:01:40] <tantek> you'd want something more texty
[00:01:44] <tantek> plain texty like
[00:01:44] <tantek> yeah
[00:01:52] <ajturner> "going to the concert @ Giants Stadium => 5PM"
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[00:10:34] <AdamCraven> alright fellers, just dropped this on digg for Brian. Some of you might find it of use: http://digg.com/programming/Microformat_cheat_sheet_Just_when_you_thought_you_knew_everything
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[00:13:51] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[00:39:33] <jibot> Jonnay is a programmer, graphic designer and musician. He blogs at http://blog.jonnay.net and his music is at http://www.jonnay.net
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[00:44:22] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[00:49:06] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
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[01:03:35] <tantek> good evening
[01:03:38] <tantek> anyone at OSCON?
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[01:05:51] <ajturner> only virtually
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[01:22:11] <schepers> there was a presentation on microformats at Tri-XML (a conference in Raleigh, NC) by a guy names Bill Cava today
[01:24:52] <tantek> interesting
[01:24:57] <tantek> URL?
[01:25:52] <schepers> http://www.trixml.org/confpresentations.shtml#TheImpactofWeb20TechnologiesRSSUserGener
[01:27:58] <mfbot> [[events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof&diff=0&oldid=7773 * Tantek * (+253) add sections for notes, photos, and linked to Tantek's photos from the BOF
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[01:28:11] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
[01:28:54] <mfbot> [[events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof&diff=0&oldid=7774 * Tantek * (+45)
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[01:42:40] <mfbot> [[events/2006-07-27-oscon-microformats-bof]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-07-27-oscon-microformats-bof * Tantek * (+1455) drafted
[01:43:21] <mfbot> [[events/2006-07-27-oscon-microformats-bof]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-07-27-oscon-microformats-bof&diff=0&oldid=7775 * Tantek * (+5)
[01:45:42] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=7776 * Tantek * (-30) create page for OSCON microformats BOF
[02:10:44] <mfbot> [[events/2006-07-27-oscon-microformats-bof]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-07-27-oscon-microformats-bof&diff=0&oldid=7777 * Tantek * (+41) add link back to parent
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[02:14:10] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=7778 * Tantek * (+125) added links and info from events listing on home page
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[03:00:46] <KevinMarks> evening
[03:01:15] <KevinMarks> did we give ian the 'how to webcast ' kit
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[03:05:15] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
[03:09:54] <tantek> hey Ian
[03:09:58] <tantek> how is the BOF going?
[03:11:44] <tantek> invite people to add themselves to: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-07-27-oscon-microformats-bof#Attending
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[03:34:45] <briansuda> pretty quiet around here....
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[03:37:23] <tantek> indeed
[03:37:32] <tantek> i even dropped an invite in #oscon
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[03:44:12] <briansuda> tantek, i have a few other projects i need to clean-up some loose-ends on, then i would like to get back on the citation microformat
[03:44:31] <briansuda> i think were we left-off was with using the media-info
[03:44:45] <briansuda> i'll try and review my notes and get back-up to speed
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[03:53:49] <tantek> ok, i'm going to grab some dinner
[03:53:51] <tantek> bbiab
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[03:58:43] <KevinMarks> http://www.valleywag.com/tech/crazies/deep-into-the-crazed-mind-of-guru-dion-hinchcliffe-190173.php
[03:58:59] <KevinMarks> last diagram needs some microformat flattening
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[04:06:05] <qid> http://www.eod.com/devil/archive/web_standards.html
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[04:27:34] <jibot> deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
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[04:58:55] <mfbot> [[Main Page-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-ja&diff=0&oldid=7779 * IwaiMasaharu * (-67) sync: english: 16:23, 27 Jul 2006
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[05:07:52] <mfbot> [[Main Page-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-ja&diff=0&oldid=7780 * IwaiMasaharu * (-1) 他の言語に翻訳するのをお手伝いください！ - 意訳した
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[07:02:24] <jibot> deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
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[07:15:43] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
[07:28:27] <jakedahn> howdy
[07:39:27] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7781 * Alf.Kare.Lefdal * (+104) Examples in the wild -
[07:44:20] <KevinMarks> hi ian
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[07:44:25] <KevinMarks> how'd the BoF go?
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[07:50:12] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[07:58:21] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
[07:58:23] <McNulty> morning
[07:58:32] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
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[08:03:46] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
[08:08:20] <deanero> BoF was interesting, for anyone who may be listening
[08:08:56] <deanero> i've seen tantek @ SXSW for a couple years running
[08:10:18] <deanero> the OSCON folks are far fewer and more skeptical
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[08:22:55] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[09:47:45] <jibot> boneill is Ben O'Neill, a 3rd year Software Engineering student - http://www.benedictoneill.com/
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[10:02:26] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
[10:02:36] <drewinthehead> 'lo
[10:02:57] <McNulty> morning drew
[10:03:25] <trovster> evenin'
[10:03:27] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-ja&diff=0&oldid=7782 * IwaiMasaharu * (+86) Introduction -
[10:05:44] <McNulty> I think that Tantek's comment on mf-discuss about ratings being a tagging issue is quite interesting
[10:05:55] <McNulty> certainly for the page scope it solves it entirely, in my eyes
[10:06:15] * drewinthehead isn't prepared to discuss ratings ;)
[10:06:37] <McNulty> <a href="http://www.bbfc.org.uk/ratings/12a" rel="tag">This movie is a 12A</a>
[10:06:40] <McNulty> works for me
[10:06:49] <McNulty> drewinthehead - aw... ok
[10:07:06] <drewinthehead> na, only being daft
[10:07:34] <drewinthehead> the thing about ratings is they need to be understood
[10:07:49] <McNulty> they are, I guess
[10:07:55] <McNulty> Make up a central authority
[10:07:59] <tantek> the URL is sufficient to provide undersstanding
[10:07:59] <McNulty> Use rel-tag
[10:08:07] <drewinthehead> my worry with tags-only is that it's very difficult for something like a content filter to utilise arbitrary tags
[10:08:13] <tantek> pick whichever authority you wish to reference
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[10:08:26] <McNulty> all the semantics we were discussing can be captured, as long as we're only talking about page scope
[10:08:27] <drewinthehead> (i think Faruk just ran for cover ;) )
[10:08:53] <McNulty> drewinthehead - I think what you were talking about was more like tagging elements on the page with ratings, right?
[10:09:00] <McNulty> Does rel-tag have any scoping mechanism?
[10:09:19] <drewinthehead> rel-tag works for blog posts
[10:09:21] <McNulty> It seems to be a much broader question than a ratings thing
[10:09:36] <drewinthehead> the element-granularity may be a made up problem
[10:09:43] <drewinthehead> and we don't want to try to solve those
[10:09:48] <McNulty> tantek - didn't mean to start talking about you as if you weren't here, sorry :-)
[10:10:38] <McNulty> drewinthehead - for a site like DeviantArt (I think Phae mentioned them) then they might want to tag a thumbnail in a gallery as pornographic
[10:11:19] <tantek> McNulty, not a problem, it is normal sleeping hours here in PDT so your assumption was reasonable.
[10:11:29] <drewinthehead> i think generally the community is happy that ratings is a solved problem through the use of rel-tag. unless i can present a real-world problem where rel-tag falls down and that is sufficiently common, my reservations about using rel-tag for this are purely theoretical, and thus pointless harping on about :)
[10:12:22] <McNulty> I think rel-tag is a good solution, I also think it'd be useful to scope rel-tag.
[10:12:24] <tantek> drew, the key is that any particular community/service/site that wants to use ratings can use rel-tag and then specify a particular ratingspace/tagspace taxonomy to use with those rel-tags
[10:12:42] <drewinthehead> sure
[10:12:52] <tantek> McNulty, xFolk lets you apply rel-tags to any URL resource
[10:12:57] <McNulty> tantek- I was arguing that ratings had to be tied to a URL yesterday, and completely missed that that was exactly how rel-tag works
[10:13:10] <tantek> ah, yes. exactly.
[10:13:30] <McNulty> Ah, I'm reading the wrong page, the rel-tag page says it "indicates that the destination of that hyperlink is an author-designated "tag" (or keyword/subject) of the current page"
[10:13:30] <tantek> that aspect of the rel-tag design (the use of a tagspace) was very deliberate
[10:13:38] * McNulty goes to read about xFolk
[10:13:53] <tantek> McNulty, ... or portion thereof, such as a blog post.
[10:13:56] * drewinthehead has xFolk parsing 99% working in hKit :)
[10:14:05] <tantek> drew, nice!
[10:14:13] <drewinthehead> (low hanging fruit)
[10:14:14] <McNulty> maybe the rel-tag page needs updating then
[10:15:20] <McNulty> so... a rel-tag inside an xfolkentity is implicitly scoped to that container?
[10:18:55] <McNulty> my question is, if my parser knows about rel-tag, and doesn't know about xFolk I presume it'll scope the tag to the page?
[10:18:56] <davecardwell> tantek: what do you think about my comments on using rel-tag for skills in hResume?
[10:19:00] <davecardwell> (http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-feedback)
[10:19:07] <davecardwell> I never heard anything back about that
[10:19:29] <davecardwell> it's the second one down, starting "I and others on the #microformats IRC channel"
[10:19:31] <tantek> McNulty, yes.
[10:19:35] <tantek> which is accurate
[10:19:40] <tantek> because there is *something* on that page with that tag
[10:19:46] <tantek> thus it is relevant to the page as well
[10:20:11] <McNulty> right. So rel-tag is scoped to the page, unless it's inside a container that is part of a microformat that uses rel-tag.
[10:20:23] <McNulty> I'll edit the wiki once I think of a better way of phrasing that
[10:21:39] <tantek> McNulty, not quite
[10:21:55] <tantek> even in the spec it is scoped to containers like blog posts
[10:22:23] <tantek> and since the spec is pretty stable, I'd suggest posting any suggested changes to the email list first for discussion
[10:22:35] <McNulty> I've mis-read the spec, in that case.
[10:23:48] <McNulty> I'll post to the list before vandalising the wiki
[10:26:53] <drewinthehead> for 'container' do we just take prompts from the document structure?
[10:26:58] <tantek> davecardwell, many have asked for linkless tags. in practice the semantics of such are greatly reduced so they are undesirable.
[10:27:09] <tantek> it is one of the big differences between "keywords" and tags
[10:27:19] <tantek> if you take away the link, they are no longer really tags
[10:27:23] <tantek> by modern conventions
[10:27:35] <tantek> tags in the systems that popularized tags are *all* link based
[10:27:36] <McNulty> the META keywords already solve the issue of linkless tags
[10:27:43] <tantek> e.g. del.icio.us, Flickr etc.
[10:27:57] <tantek> McNulty, sort of and not really
[10:28:05] <tantek> meta keywords does specify a format yes
[10:28:10] <tantek> but *only* for the whole page
[10:28:16] <tantek> they cannot be scoped to portions of the page
[10:28:23] <tantek> and they are invisible thus subject to corruption/rot
[10:28:34] <tantek> much more so than visible markup/content
[10:28:46] <tantek> a more apt comparison might be to "category" in hCard
[10:29:00] <drewinthehead> invisible meta data kills bunnies
[10:29:47] <tantek> davecardwell, regarding the "richer was of marking up qualifications", no such need has been determined yet from the examples
[10:30:21] <tantek> if you think that such needs actually fall into the 80/20, then you will need to find real world examples on the web that make use of them and document them on the resume-examples wiki page to start with.
[10:32:41] <davecardwell> ok, thanks for your thoughts
[10:33:05] <davecardwell> the fact that tags without links are undesirable doesn't solve my problems with specifying skills with hresume though
[10:33:22] <davecardwell> it still generates a bunch of links you may not want, to locations that may not be intuative
[10:34:06] <davecardwell> this is just something I had a personal problem with for my resume - should I post to mf-discuss to see if I'm in the 80% or the 20%?
[10:35:04] <davecardwell> I understand why rel-tag itself necessitates a link
[10:35:08] <davecardwell> but not skills in a resume
[10:35:15] <davecardwell> perhaps rel-tag is not the correct way to represent skills?
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[10:39:10] <tantek> a skill is essentially a subset of a self-tag
[10:39:18] <tantek> you are tagging yourself with that skill
[10:39:32] <tantek> the semantic applies fully
[10:39:36] * McNulty wouldn't know what to link to.
[10:40:42] <McNulty> If I'm publishing my CV on my personal site, I have to find a job skills aggregator?
[10:40:53] <McNulty> Or do I just link to Wikipedia or something
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[10:41:26] <davecardwell> I want to mark-up my familiarity with the Image::Magick Perl module as a skill
[10:41:33] <davecardwell> where do I link to for a valid rel-tag?
[10:41:50] <McNulty> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagemagick ?
[10:41:57] <davecardwell> the most sensible place would be the CPAN page for that module, or a page on imagemagick.org
[10:42:13] <davecardwell> but I'm forced to link to wikipedia?
[10:42:21] <McNulty> well, CPAN works for me
[10:42:47] <McNulty> It means the PHB reading your CV can find out what the skills are, I guess
[10:43:09] <davecardwell> but what about the *people* reading my cv?
[10:43:20] <McNulty> That's what I mean
[10:43:21] <davecardwell> what about when I want to link to HTML::Template?
[10:43:27] <davecardwell> where is the page for that?
[10:43:30] <McNulty> They can find out what ImageMagick is, if they're not familiar for it
[10:44:18] <davecardwell> but the intuative page is the perl page
[10:44:22] <davecardwell> CPAN, rather
[10:44:27] <McNulty> ok, link there then
[10:44:32] <davecardwell> rel-tag is forcing me to do something intuiative
[10:44:35] <davecardwell> but then the rel-tag is invalid
[10:44:40] <drewinthehead> strictly speaking, i don't think the page has to exist
[10:44:54] <davecardwell> but then the person is being sent somewhere that doesn't exist
[10:45:06] <McNulty> davecardwell - why is the rel-tag invalid?
[10:45:08] <davecardwell> the machine-readable and human-readable sides of the microformat aren't meeting
[10:45:27] <davecardwell> doesn't the rel-tag url have to end with the tag you're trying to describe?
[10:45:32] <McNulty> aaah
[10:45:38] <McNulty> http://search.cpan.org/dist/HTML-Template/
[10:45:41] <McNulty> ?
[10:45:59] <davecardwell> is that valid?
[10:46:17] <McNulty> valid in what sense? There's a page there
[10:46:20] <davecardwell> ah, it is
[10:46:28] <davecardwell> I meant with the trailing slash
[10:46:28] <davecardwell> neat
[10:46:34] <McNulty> davecardwell.com/skills/html-template if you prefer
[10:46:50] <McNulty> I believe all URLS have an implicit trailing slash
[10:47:00] <davecardwell> no, I don't think so
[10:47:23] <davecardwell> /foo and /foo/ can be seperate
[10:47:28] <drewinthehead> it'd be nice if one of the big search engines had urls as nice as technorati
[10:47:31] <drewinthehead> http://technorati.com/search/anything-you-like
[10:47:46] <McNulty> same as /
[10:47:51] <McNulty> isn't it?
[10:48:15] <davecardwell> not sure
[10:48:29] * McNulty is wrong
[10:48:40] <davecardwell> I'm still not convinced forcing people to link to some aribtrary site like wikipedia if they won't to describe a skill is best though
[10:48:51] <davecardwell> I'd still want to link to http://perl.apache.org/ for mod_perl rather than wikipedia
[10:49:37] <tantek> davecardwell, i'm sure the pages will evolve as necessary
[10:49:42] <tantek> isn't there a perl wiki?
[10:49:43] <McNulty> I suppose it is an issue that the site you want to link to may not have an appropriate url scheme
[10:49:56] <tantek> or rather an apache wiki?
[10:49:58] <tantek> which could have a page for mod_perl ?
[10:50:04] <davecardwell> I don't know
[10:50:10] <tantek> which then itself could link to perl.apache.org etc.?
[10:50:13] <davecardwell> but perl.apache.org is where i want to link :p
[10:50:14] <tantek> in practice this is a non-problem
[10:50:17] <davecardwell> ok
[10:50:36] <tantek> there is a subtle good point there though
[10:50:48] <tantek> which is worth capturing on rel-tag-feedback if you want to write it up
[10:50:56] <davecardwell> wiki.apache.org doesn't seem to have a mod_perl page
[10:50:58] <tantek> which is that the "last segment of a url" is limited to the path
[10:51:10] <tantek> (then create one!)
[10:51:19] <tantek> you could suggest in feedback
[10:51:23] <davecardwell> I'm not sure if it's an apache project or not
[10:51:25] <tantek> that if there is no path
[10:51:34] <davecardwell> and it's creating work for people who just want to mark up their resume
[10:51:50] <tantek> then the machine and domain name should be considered for tags
[10:51:55] <tantek> for the tagword that is
[10:51:58] <davecardwell> if I want to mark up my resume, why should i have to go trawling for links and creating pages about something I may have a *skill* in, but don't consider myself an authority on?
[10:52:08] <tantek> which would allow linking to http://perl.apache.org/ for the "perl" tag
[10:52:17] <tantek> or apache.org for the "apache" tag
[10:52:26] <davecardwell> what if I knows me some perl, but not apache?
[10:52:38] <tantek> reread what I wrote carefully
[10:52:50] <davecardwell> and perl.apache.org isn't about perl or apache, it's about mod_perl
[10:52:59] <davecardwell> hmm
[10:53:02] <tantek> if you treat the portions of the machine name as segments, and you follow the last segment semantic it all works
[10:53:25] <tantek> ah ok, so in that example then perl.apache.org doesn't work
[10:53:35] <tantek> if you want to reference mod_perl, you need a url with mod_perl at the end
[10:53:50] <davecardwell> but perl.apache.org is the most sensible place to link to
[10:53:56] <davecardwell> for human consumers of my resume
[10:53:58] * cori[s]|zZz is now known as cori[s]
[10:54:05] <davecardwell> and also probably for search engines
[10:54:15] <tantek> hmm this seems to work though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mod_perl
[10:54:31] <davecardwell> I want to imply a relationship between my CV and perl.apache.org
[10:54:53] <davecardwell> I suppose, but I don't want to have to link to wikipedia :p
[10:55:12] <davecardwell> perl.apache.org is the most sensible place for me
[10:55:21] <McNulty> tantek - the machine name optimisation will have problems with sites that follow the 'www' convention
[10:55:22] <drewinthehead> http://tools.microformatic.com/search/google/anything+you+like
[10:55:23] <davecardwell> that is just for me though, not sure if I'm in the 20%
[10:55:36] <davecardwell> McNulty: it's only the last part
[10:55:46] <davecardwell> if it was something like www.perl.org, it would take the "perl" part
[10:55:51] <davecardwell> that being the last segment of the url
[10:55:55] <McNulty> oh
[10:56:10] <McNulty> Surely the heirarchy of the first bit of a URL goes right-to-left
[10:56:10] <davecardwell> drewinthehead: that's still taking me away from perl.apache.org
[10:56:28] <tantek> no then "www" is the "last segment"
[10:56:33] <davecardwell> ah
[10:56:35] <davecardwell> hrm
[10:56:35] <tantek> you would need to specify just "perl.org"
[10:56:40] <McNulty> yeah taht's what I'm saying
[10:56:46] * tantek references http://no-www.org
[10:57:02] <McNulty> you'd have to specify 'execpt for sites with www machine names'
[10:57:28] <davecardwell> I guess my point is that I consider perl.apache.org to be *the* resource for mod_perl, that would be the most sensible and professional place to link to
[10:57:53] <davecardwell> but I'm forced to find some other site that happens to conform to some aritrary url scheme
[10:58:02] <davecardwell> be that wikipedia or something else
[10:58:19] <tantek> its not arbitrary
[10:58:25] <davecardwell> sorry, wrong word
[10:58:26] <tantek> it is a well established convention for tag URLs
[10:58:55] <McNulty> davecardwell - you need to look at what the tag URL is meant to be
[10:58:57] <tantek> and rather that create a new convention, or worse, create a meta-convention for creating conventions, we chose the dominant convention for tag URLs
[10:59:01] <tantek> per the re-use principles
[10:59:04] <davecardwell> then if I want to make a distinction between mod_perl1 and mod_perl2 which are very different, I have to go looking again
[10:59:04] <McNulty> It's is meant to be a URL to a tagging authority's page about that tag
[10:59:19] <Whiskey_M> those people have too much time on their hands
[10:59:23] <McNulty> That may not fit with what you want the user experience to be in hResume though.
[10:59:28] <tantek> yes, on the web, the only way to distinguish terms is through URLs
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[11:01:36] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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[11:06:40] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
[11:08:11] <McNulty> davecardwell - I think in your case you might want to hide the tags.
[11:09:09] <McNulty> The issue of rel-tag linking to a tagging authority like flickr.com/tags/cake works well
[11:09:24] <McNulty> The idea of skills being a tag works well
[11:09:57] <McNulty> however, the way a CV is normally presented you wouldn't expect skills to be a link, but I think that's a sort of holdover from CVs being traditionally paper documents
[11:10:46] <McNulty> You can always link to programmingskills.com/mod_perl as well as somewhere more appropriate, just only use one as a rel-tag
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[11:11:50] <davecardwell> feh, seems like a bit of a fudge
[11:12:13] <McNulty> you can always display:none the tags
[11:12:22] <davecardwell> I want to display the link text :P
[11:12:34] <davecardwell> a javascript jobby I suppose
[11:12:38] <trovster> Certainly sounds like fudge.
[11:12:38] <McNulty> Repeat the link text somewhere else with a link to the page you want to link to
[11:12:38] <davecardwell> but I don't feel i should have to
[11:12:47] <trovster> davecardwell: That's no good if the parse is dom aware.
[11:13:22] <McNulty> yeah some browser extensions etc. do stuff by looking at the DOM
[11:13:32] <davecardwell> ah
[11:14:15] <trovster> I've got some rel="tag" that I remove with JS as I'm changing the url from /section/tag to /section#tag, and rel="tag" doesn't take fragments as tags
[11:15:19] <McNulty> trovster - you do that onclick?
[11:15:28] <trovster> No, when it's setup
[11:15:45] <McNulty> hm
[11:15:46] <trovster> onload, on the JS
[11:16:10] <McNulty> I had assumed most extensions would look at the DOM rather than the page xrc
[11:16:17] <McNulty> s/xrc/src
[11:20:23] <drewinthehead> display:none? won't somebody think of the kittens?
[11:21:39] <McNulty> davecardwell - if you don't want people clicking on it, style it so it doesn't look like a link and have an onclick that returns false
[11:25:13] <trovster> uF looks OK on here - http://www.multipack.co.uk/competition.html ?
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[11:25:27] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[11:26:42] <davecardwell> McNulty: I know that's an option, but I don't feel i should have to :P
[11:27:07] <McNulty> davecardwell - in an ideal world what would the markup be, for you?
[11:27:52] <davecardwell> a reverse of the rel-tag i suppose, where the text is the tag
[11:28:12] <davecardwell> <a href="http://perl.apache.org/" class="skill">mod_perl</a>
[11:28:36] <McNulty> right, not a tag at all?
[11:28:46] <davecardwell> then where I don't want a link, I could just do <span class="skill">mod_perl</span> instead
[11:29:44] <McNulty> you're losing the idea of 'whose concept of mod_perl are we talking abot?'
[11:30:24] <McNulty> the advantage of the rel-tag is you're saying 'this item in this authorities' list of tags'
[11:32:00] <drewinthehead> (aside) do we capitalise microformats in formal writing?
[11:32:05] <davecardwell> for it just to be on <a> then
[11:32:12] <davecardwell> s/for/force/
[11:32:22] <drewinthehead> I enhanced this site with Microformats. (for example)
[11:32:24] <davecardwell> perl.apache.org will be the authority, for mod_perl
[11:33:02] <davecardwell> I enhanced this site with <a href="http://www.microformats.org/" class="skill">Microformats</a>.
[11:33:26] <davecardwell> though I guess that www.microformats.org would work as a rel-tag with tantek's idea of the domain being part of the path
[11:33:40] <davecardwell> well, sans the www.
[11:33:42] <drewinthehead> no-www!
[11:33:43] <drewinthehead> :)
[11:33:54] <drewinthehead> but upper-case M?
[11:34:01] <tantek> lowercase
[11:34:05] <drewinthehead> thanks
[11:36:18] <trovster> http://www.multipack.co.uk/competition.html how's the uF(s) look on here
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[11:44:57] <trovster> Well, that killed it!
[11:47:13] <davecardwell> I responded elsewhere :p
[11:47:59] <trovster> ;)
[11:54:58] <trovster> Heh, tails (+export) messes up... <h3 class="summary entry-title">... <p class="description entry-summary"> -- it takes this value instead for hCalendar
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[12:05:45] <McNulty> odd, tails' regex (or whatever) may not like hyphens
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[12:06:38] <trovster> It certainly don't
[12:11:12] <drewinthehead> i'm betting it's using word-boundaries
[12:11:30] <drewinthehead> they fall foul of hyphens, which catches most people out
[12:13:22] <trovster> http://www.multipack.co.uk/competition.html -- tis for this
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[12:13:50] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
[12:15:08] <drewinthehead> getting weird behaviour on those notes for some reason http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://www.multipack.co.uk/competition.html
[12:20:23] <trovster> That is wierd. I've broken your parser again ;)
[12:21:04] <trovster> <span class="nickname">trovster</span> should be valid ;)
[12:21:46] <trovster> Hmm, not in class="n"
[12:24:49] <trovster> <dd class="tel"><span class="type">work cell</span><span class="value">######</span></dd> -- would this be correct?
[12:27:04] <drewinthehead> just trying to determine if you should have each type wrapped in a type
[12:27:34] <drewinthehead> i'm thinking yes
[12:28:20] <drewinthehead> <span class="type">work</span> <span class="type">cell</span> <span class="value">#######</span>
[12:28:46] <trovster> meh :)
[12:28:50] <drewinthehead> because 'work cell' isn't a valid type. 'work' is and 'cell' is
[12:29:00] <trovster> We're doing a competition, any more uF I should add?
[12:29:13] <drewinthehead> hCompetition
[12:29:20] <trovster> :d
[12:29:59] <drewinthehead> i bet there's something you could use hReview for ... *everything* can be an hReview if you try hard enough ;)
[12:31:12] <drewinthehead> what sort of competition is it?
[12:31:31] <trovster> Well, to style this HTML :)
[12:32:34] <drewinthehead> it'd be more interesting to ask people to create a visual representation of the HTML
[12:32:45] <drewinthehead> then leave it up to them to decide what that means
[12:33:14] <trovster> Que?
[12:34:08] <drewinthehead> well, with all that microformatted data, there may be more interesting things to do than just apply some css
[12:34:21] <trovster> Aha, well, we're allowing JS, too
[12:34:49] <trovster> So, you're suggesting, you need to use the HTML, but could create a calendar app with it?
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[12:35:26] <drewinthehead> well if you're letting them use JavaScript they could create pretty much anything with it
[12:36:27] <trovster> 20k JS and 5 images
[12:37:23] <drewinthehead> cool
[12:37:27] <drewinthehead> sounds like fun
[12:37:37] <drewinthehead> anyone remember the 5k competition?
[12:37:52] <trovster> aye, I kinda do.
[12:38:12] <drewinthehead> it'd be great to do something like that again
[12:38:41] <drewinthehead> those sort of mad constraints encourage creativity
[12:39:34] <trovster> Did you see the 'only three images' competition?
[12:39:57] <drewinthehead> nope
[12:39:58] <drewinthehead> http://www.sylloge.com/5k/original.html
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[12:45:19] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
[12:45:22] <trovster> http://zooibaai.nl/2005/06/contest-pushing-css/ - was the comp
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[12:50:53] <drewinthehead> cool, trovster, i didn't see that originally
[12:51:09] <drewinthehead> i wonder if there's something we could do with a mF twist
[12:52:13] <trovster> Kinda why we're pluggin loads of uF in to this comp
[12:55:27] <drewinthehead> i was thinking something more free-form like the 5k
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[13:01:39] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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[13:06:14] <trovster> drewinthehead: Have any opinion on the HTML (so far) for the competition?
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[13:09:11] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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[13:16:52] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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[13:27:19] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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[13:30:44] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[13:30:58] <whereisbot> bergie is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:31:00] <whereisbot> bergie is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:31:02] <whereisbot> bergie is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:31:04] <whereisbot> bergie is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:31:06] <whereisbot> bergie is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:31:08] <whereisbot> bergie is in Helsinki, FI (guessed) (60.2667 x 25)
[13:31:09] <ajturner> just a sec
[13:31:22] <bergie> heh, last one was *almost* right
[13:31:29] * whereisbot (n=whereisb@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[13:32:08] * whereisbot (n=whereisb@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
[13:32:12] <ajturner> .whereis bergie
[13:32:28] <whereisbot> bergie is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:32:30] <whereisbot> bergie is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:32:30] <ajturner> hrm
[13:32:32] <whereisbot> bergie is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:32:34] <whereisbot> bergie is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:32:35] <ajturner> something is afoot
[13:32:36] <whereisbot> bergie is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:32:38] <whereisbot> bergie is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:32:40] <whereisbot> bergie is in Helsinki, FI (guessed) (60.2667 x 25)
[13:32:43] * whereisbot (n=whereisb@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[13:32:48] <boneill> bergie moves quickly.
[13:32:50] <ajturner> that's.... weird
[13:32:57] <ajturner> yes, yes he does
[13:33:18] <bergie> you know, the modern air travel
[13:33:59] <bergie> the bot just uses IP?
[13:34:08] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
[13:34:09] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
[13:34:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
[13:42:22] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-142-140.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[13:42:39] <ajturner> bergie - yep
[13:48:12] * drewinthehead suspects he routes through holland
[13:48:34] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-142-140.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
[13:48:39] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[13:50:20] * whereisbot (n=whereisb@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
[13:50:47] <ajturner> .whereis drewinthehead
[13:51:00] <whereisbot> drewinthehead is in Blackburn, UK (53.4333 x -1.3667)
[13:51:03] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
[13:51:04] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
[13:51:05] <drewinthehead> oh god
[13:51:13] <drewinthehead> i don't want to be in Blackburn
[13:51:20] <drewinthehead> :D
[13:51:20] <ajturner> sorry, htat's just how it goes
[13:51:24] <ajturner> that's where you are
[13:51:30] <Phae> heh
[13:51:37] <drewinthehead> right, that's it! i pledge never to work here agaiN!
[13:51:55] <ajturner> where do you "think" you are ;)
[13:52:05] <drewinthehead> Windsor, UK
[13:52:14] * ikallen (n=ikallen@12.180.45.140) has joined #microformats
[13:52:16] <whereisbot> ikallen is in Central Point, OR, US (42.3737 x -122.911)
[13:52:36] <trovster> .whereis trovster
[13:52:38] <whereisbot> trovster is in London, UK (51.5 x -0.1167)
[13:52:48] <drewinthehead> oh the irony
[13:52:49] <ajturner> I brought this up yesterday to tantek, but he didn't really say anything
[13:52:57] <dglazkov> .whereis dglazkov
[13:52:59] <ajturner> I think it would be useful to use a picoformat or something for IRC messages like this
[13:53:09] <ajturner> so, say, the text after an "2
[13:53:12] <whereisbot> dglazkov is in Birmingham, AL, US (33.5277 x -86.7992)
[13:53:24] <ajturner> "@" symbol is location, [ ### x ###] is a geo
[13:53:33] <dglazkov> you think you're so clever, whereisbot
[13:53:49] <ajturner> whereisbot isn't snotty like Monty
[13:53:58] <dglazkov> .whereis whereisbot
[13:54:02] <whereisbot> whereisbot is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[13:54:20] <ajturner> now you know where to send your strike theam
[13:54:22] <ajturner> team
[13:54:41] * dglazkov wishes he had a strike team... sometimes..
[13:55:16] <ryanlowe> .whereis ryanlowe
[13:55:29] <ryanlowe> i don't have the magic :)
[13:55:42] <ajturner> he's thinking...
[13:56:06] <ryanlowe> hehe
[13:56:09] <Phae> I bet it'll get mine wrong
[13:56:10] <dglazkov> ok, quick brainstorm. Distributed database, mashup potential, cool stuff, right?
[13:56:10] <ryanlowe> it'll probably say Toronto
[13:56:16] <Phae> Unless it gets goonhilly
[13:56:30] <ajturner> .whereis ryanlowe
[13:56:47] <ajturner> hrm....
[13:56:51] <dglazkov> ryanlowe is nowhere to be found
[13:57:02] <ryanlowe> :)
[13:57:23] <ajturner> apparently, should at least say that
[13:57:30] <ajturner> http://api.hostip.info/rough.php?ip=74.104.27.146
[13:57:33] <ajturner> is where you are
[13:57:37] <dglazkov> it's a ghost!
[13:57:39] <Phae> .whereis Phae
[13:57:52] <Phae> I think it's worn out.
[13:57:54] <whereisbot> Phae is in Bournemouth, UK (50.7167 x -1.8833)
[13:57:56] <Phae> oh
[13:57:58] <Phae> Way out.
[13:58:12] <ajturner> whereisbot: help
[13:58:14] <whereisbot> Hi, I'm whereisbot (a http://highearthorbit.com/projects/whereisbot/)
[13:58:18] <whereisbot> Commands: whereami, wherearethey, whereis, whereisresp, whereisspeak
[13:58:22] <whereisbot> Try "whereisbot: help command?" if stuck. My owner is ajturner.
[13:58:44] <ajturner> whereisbot: help whereis
[13:58:46] <whereisbot> '.whereis <nick> - Reports where <nick> is currently located. To update your location, go to http://hostip.info'
[13:58:54] <ajturner> there ya go - update your info at hostip
[13:59:15] <cori[s]> whereisbot: help wherearethey
[13:59:17] <whereisbot> '.wherearethey - Reports the location of users as they enter the channel'
[13:59:29] <cori[s]> whereisbot: help whereisspeak
[13:59:31] <whereisbot> ".whereisspeak <mode> - Changes the announcement of joining users 'on' or 'off'"
[13:59:45] <Phae> .whereis Phae
[14:00:00] <whereisbot> Phae is in Helston, UK (50.1 x -5.2833)
[14:00:03] <Phae> swish.
[14:00:23] <trovster> How'd you fix it?
[14:00:26] <ajturner> ah, you updated? for awhile the API vs. Hostip page were using diff't dbs
[14:00:32] <ajturner> whereisbot: help whereis
[14:00:33] <Phae> Go to that URL, and enter the correct location.
[14:00:34] <whereisbot> '.whereis <nick> - Reports where <nick> is currently located. To update your location, go to http://hostip.info'
[14:00:36] <Phae> For your IP
[14:00:39] <ajturner> trovster, update at hostip.info
[14:00:56] <ajturner> they're going to add a POST to the api so can do a: .iamhere
[14:01:06] <Phae> that'd be better
[14:01:25] * alexandermuse (n=alexande@c-67-162-230-24.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[14:01:29] <whereisbot> alexandermuse is in Dallas, TX, US (32.7942 x -96.7653)
[14:01:59] * chucker (n=chucker@p5489D4A2.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
[14:03:22] <ajturner> .reload whereis
[14:03:24] <whereisbot> ajturner: <module 'modules.whereis' from '/Users/ajturner/Projects/whereisbot/modules/whereis.py'> (version: 2006-07-28 14:02:06)
[14:03:31] <ajturner> .whereis whereisbot
[14:03:34] <whereisbot> whereisbot keeps his location to himself
[14:04:49] <dglazkov> But we know... oh yes... we know
[14:05:03] <drewinthehead> .whereis drewinthehead
[14:05:18] <whereisbot> drewinthehead is in Windsor, UK (51.4833 x -0.6)
[14:05:21] <cori[s]> .whereis ajturner
[14:05:24] <whereisbot> ajturner is in Northville, MI, US (42.4365 x -83.4884)
[14:05:32] <ajturner> ah, see, cori[s] knows how to see past the walls ;)
[14:05:55] <cori[s]> :D
[14:06:07] * ikallen (n=ikallen@12.180.45.140) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[14:06:39] * ikallen (n=ikallen@12.180.45.140) has joined #microformats
[14:06:42] <whereisbot> ikallen is in Central Point, OR, US (42.3737 x -122.911)
[14:07:46] <drewinthehead> unfortunately it wouldn't accept my location as being "the bowels of hell"
[14:08:24] <Phae> Windsor isn't THAT bad.
[14:08:33] <Phae> Although, I only shop and eat there. :)
[14:11:28] <trovster> http://www.multipack.co.uk/competition/ -- ok, how's that look?
[14:13:44] <trovster> Well, look may not be the ideal word there ;)
[14:15:10] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
[14:15:10] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
[14:15:10] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
[14:15:13] <whereisbot> briansuda is in Lakewood, CO, US (guessed) (39.6952 x -105.114)
[14:15:40] * briansuda doesn't think that's right?
[14:16:36] <cori[s]> you sure, briansuda? ;)
[14:16:56] <briansuda> i'm pretty sure i'm not in CO, it is too hot here!
[14:18:51] * briansuda wonders how to send commands to whereisbot
[14:21:10] <ajturner> whereisbot: help
[14:21:12] <whereisbot> Hi, I'm whereisbot (a http://highearthorbit.com/projects/whereisbot/)
[14:21:15] <whereisbot> Commands: whereami, wherearethey, whereis, whereisresp, whereisspeak
[14:21:19] <whereisbot> Try "whereisbot: help command?" if stuck. My owner is ajturner.
[14:26:39] <qid> interesting
[14:26:58] <qid> .whereis qid
[14:27:02] <whereisbot> qid is in Rochester, NY, US (43.1687 x -77.6158)
[14:27:44] <pnhChris> .whereami
[14:27:47] <whereisbot> pnhChris is in Middletown, NJ, US (guessed) (40.3943 x -74.1177)
[14:27:59] <pnhChris> yeah.. thats a fairly rough guess
[14:28:10] <qid> it's correct about where my IRC client is running... it seems to have no clue where my actual IP is
[14:28:13] <pnhChris> but i'll blame comcast for that :P
[14:28:25] <pnhChris> and ewww... rochester :P
[14:28:45] <ajturner> qid - well, it's using your IRC
[14:28:58] <qid> it's guessing new york, pennsylvania, kansas, california, massachusetts...
[14:30:19] * alexandermuse (n=alexande@c-67-162-230-24.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit ()
[14:30:25] <qid> strange
[14:31:07] * boneill (i=boneill@house.ninjagrapefruit.com) Quit ("blah.")
[14:34:39] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) Quit ()
[14:38:59] <drewinthehead> trel1023: i think my /msging is broken - but received and understood! (AIM: drewinthehead)
[14:39:15] * schepers (i=schepers@nom12328smd.nomadic.ncsu.edu) has joined #microformats
[14:39:23] <trel1023> ah
[14:39:26] <whereisbot> schepers is in Raleigh, NC, US (35.8219 x -78.6588)
[14:39:29] <whereisbot> schepers is in Raleigh, NC, US (35.8219 x -78.6588)
[14:40:25] <briansuda> ajturner, that URL is a 404
[14:40:40] <ajturner> .reload whereis
[14:40:42] <whereisbot> ajturner: <module 'modules.whereis' from '/Users/ajturner/Projects/whereisbot/modules/whereis.py'> (version: 2006-07-28 14:05:58)
[14:40:47] <ajturner> whereisbot: help
[14:40:49] <whereisbot> Hi, I'm whereisbot (a http://highearthorbit.com/projects/whereisbot/)
[14:40:52] <ajturner> hrm
[14:40:53] <whereisbot> Commands: whereami, wherearethey, whereis, whereisresp, whereisspeak
[14:40:56] <whereisbot> Try "whereisbot: help command?" if stuck. My owner is ajturner.
[14:41:06] <ajturner> its http://highearthorbit.com/project/whereisbot/
[14:41:26] <briansuda> that works,
[14:41:29] <ajturner> .reload help
[14:41:31] <whereisbot> ajturner: <module 'modules.help' from '/Users/ajturner/Projects/whereisbot/modules/help.py'> (version: 2006-07-28 14:02:36)
[14:41:35] <briansuda> project singular, not plural
[14:41:38] <ajturner> yes
[14:41:46] <ajturner> an oddity of Wordpress pages :p
[14:41:57] <ajturner> I need to upgrade to WP2 anyways so i can play w/ the hResume plugin
[14:51:10] * cori[s] is now known as coris
[14:53:33] * coris is now known as cori[s]
[14:53:37] * cori[s] is now known as soris
[14:54:26] * soris is now known as coris
[14:55:35] * alexandermuse (n=alexande@c-67-162-230-24.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[14:55:38] <whereisbot> alexandermuse is in Dallas, TX, US [32.7942 x -96.7653]
[15:02:27] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
[15:02:31] <whereisbot> vant is in (Unknown City?), XX [ x ]
[15:03:01] * pecus (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) has joined #microformats
[15:03:15] <whereisbot> pecus is in Lisbon, PT [38.7333 x -9.15]
[15:07:37] * ikallen (n=ikallen@12.180.45.140) Quit ()
[15:10:48] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
[15:17:56] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[15:25:14] * ca3rine (n=ca3rine@220-132-240-199.HINET-IP.hinet.net) has joined #microformats
[15:25:29] <whereisbot> ca3rine is in Taipei, TW (guessed) [25.05 x 121.517]
[15:26:14] * ca3rine (n=ca3rine@220-132-240-199.HINET-IP.hinet.net) has left #microformats
[15:26:42] <mfbot> [[User:DrewMcLellan]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:DrewMcLellan&diff=0&oldid=7783 * DrewMcLellan * (+51) Drew McLellan -
[15:32:44] * Ca3rine (n=ca3rine@220-132-240-199.HINET-IP.hinet.net) has joined #microformats
[15:32:58] <whereisbot> Ca3rine is in Taipei, TW (guessed) [25.05 x 121.517]
[15:35:17] * schepers (i=schepers@nom12328smd.nomadic.ncsu.edu) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[15:39:45] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
[15:39:45] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
[15:39:46] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
[15:39:49] <whereisbot> cgriego is in Waltham, MA, US [42.3878 x -71.2422]
[15:40:24] <cgriego> uhm... I'm in TX
[15:44:01] <ajturner> cgriego - no you're not
[15:44:03] <ajturner> :)
[15:45:07] <cgriego> so am
[15:48:05] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[15:48:53] * amette__ is now known as amette
[15:50:22] <tantek> good morning
[15:50:36] <tantek> ah, I see we have a new bot
[15:51:17] <dglazkov> yes
[15:51:45] <dglazkov> seems a bit useful, but not very accurate
[15:53:15] <ajturner> dglazkov - you have the power to increase the accuracy - wield it wisely
[15:53:44] <ajturner> tantek - I was mentioning picoformats in IRC messages yesterday, this bot seems like a good example
[15:55:23] * tantek wonders if the bot could simply reference a location service (e.g. Plazes or Dodgeball) to look up where a person is, rather than having to manually update it.
[15:56:02] * ikallen (i=ikallen@conference/oscon/session) has joined #microformats
[15:56:04] <whereisbot> ikallen is hiding behind the tapestries (conference/oscon/session)
[15:56:21] <ajturner> tantek - this uses hostip.info
[15:56:27] <ajturner> but good point
[15:56:46] <ajturner> someone should/could register a service and nick at that service to use instead
[15:56:55] * brianoberkirch (n=brianobe@adsl-156-89-51.msy.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
[15:56:58] <whereisbot> brianoberkirch is in (Unknown City?), XX [ x ]
[15:57:17] <ajturner> 2 good cases in point (ikallen and brianoberkirch) :)
[15:57:24] <tantek> LOL
[15:57:35] <ajturner> .whereami
[15:57:37] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
[15:57:38] <whereisbot> ajturner is in Northville, MI, US [42.4365 x -83.4884]
[15:57:41] <tantek> .whereammi
[15:57:49] <tantek> .whereami
[15:57:52] <whereisbot> tantek is in Brighton, UK [50.8333 x -0.15]
[15:57:52] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
[15:58:03] <whereisbot> tantek is in San Francisco, CA, US (guessed) [37.8133 x -122.505]
[15:58:06] <trovster> How'd I get a long/lat with a town name?!
[15:58:22] <ajturner> center of the town
[15:58:23] <tantek> sweet, i'm somehow in two places at once
[15:58:31] <ajturner> you're just amazing like that
[15:58:59] <dglazkov> .whereammi
[15:59:05] <trovster> meh
[15:59:13] <ajturner> you misspelled it
[15:59:22] <Whiskey_M> .whereami
[15:59:23] <dglazkov> no, I was hacking it! :)
[15:59:24] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has left #microformats
[15:59:31] <ajturner> heh
[15:59:36] <whereisbot> Whiskey_M is in Brighton, UK [50.8333 x -0.15]
[15:59:42] <Whiskey_M> lol - looking for extra features ;)
[15:59:47] <ajturner> whereisbot: help
[15:59:49] <whereisbot> Hi, I'm whereisbot (a http://highearthorbit.com/project/whereisbot/)
[15:59:53] <whereisbot> Commands: whereami, wherearethey, whereis, whereisresp, whereisspeak
[15:59:55] <dglazkov> .whereiwouldliketobe
[15:59:57] <whereisbot> Try "whereisbot: help command?" if stuck. My owner is ajturner.
[16:00:06] <ajturner> whereisbot: help whereami
[16:00:08] <whereisbot> '.whereami - Reports where the requester is currently located. To update your location, go to http://hostip.info'
[16:00:09] <Whiskey_M> simple answer to that one - pub
[16:00:17] <ajturner> heh - permament loc?
[16:01:18] <Whiskey_M> .whereami
[16:01:32] <whereisbot> Whiskey_M is in Maidstone, UK [51.2667 x 0.5167]
[16:01:42] <Whiskey_M> that's a quick lookup
[16:07:53] <drewinthehead> ?def drewinthehead
[16:07:54] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
[16:08:32] <drewinthehead> ?def drewinthehead is http://claimid.com/drewmclellan
[16:08:33] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com and http://claimid.com/drewmclellan
[16:13:23] * drewinthehead needs to clear his desk out
[16:13:27] <drewinthehead> back later!
[16:13:45] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) has left #microformats
[16:16:31] * chucker (n=chucker@p5489D4A2.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #microformats
[16:16:58] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has left #Microformats
[16:24:39] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[16:25:36] <briansuda> wherearethey
[16:25:43] <briansuda> .wherearethey
[16:26:26] <briansuda> .whereami
[16:26:29] <whereisbot> briansuda is in Lakewood, CO, US (guessed) [39.6952 x -105.114]
[16:28:33] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
[16:28:36] <whereisbot> hober is hiding behind the tapestries (unaffiliated/hober)
[16:30:41] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
[16:30:41] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
[16:30:43] <whereisbot> mlinksva is hiding behind the tapestries (pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva)
[16:32:29] <briansuda> .whereisspeak
[16:32:40] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit ()
[16:32:48] <briansuda> whereisbot help whereisspeak
[16:32:58] <briansuda> whereisbot: help whereisspea
[16:33:00] <whereisbot> Sorry, no documentation for whereisspea.
[16:33:08] <briansuda> whereisbot: help whereisspeak
[16:33:10] <whereisbot> ".whereisspeak <mode> - Changes the announcement of joining users 'on' or 'off'"
[16:33:26] <briansuda> whereisbot: help wherearethey
[16:33:29] <whereisbot> ".wherearethey - bot internals - please don't look, it's embarrasing. (Reports the location of users as they enter the channel)"
[16:33:50] <briansuda> whereisbot help whereisresp
[16:33:59] <briansuda> whereisbot: help whereisresp
[16:34:01] <whereisbot> ".whereisresp - bot internals - please don't look, it's embarrasing."
[16:34:14] <briansuda> whereisbot: help whereami
[16:34:16] <whereisbot> '.whereami - Reports where the requester is currently located. To update your location, go to http://hostip.info'
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[16:48:56] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7784 * MSI Webmaster * (+118) Examples in the wild -
[16:55:10] <davecardwell> whereis davecardwell
[16:55:31] <davecardwell> whereisbot: davecardwell
[16:55:39] <davecardwell> grr
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[16:56:11] <davecardwell> .whereami
[16:56:15] <whereisbot> davecardwell is in London, UK [51.5 x -0.1167]
[16:56:18] <davecardwell> lies
[16:56:45] <davecardwell> I'm 227 miles away
[16:58:11] <ajturner> davecardwell - update hostip.info
[16:58:44] <bewest> .whereami
[16:58:46] <whereisbot> bewest is hiding behind the tapestries (httpcraft/bewest)
[16:58:50] <bewest> oh
[16:58:50] <bewest> hehe
[16:59:05] <bewest> anywya, it would have said I'm in Seattle probably
[16:59:18] <davecardwell> meh
[16:59:24] <davecardwell> the server I run irssi from is in London
[16:59:25] <bewest> (which is incorrect)
[16:59:27] <davecardwell> London will do
[17:03:21] * ikallen (i=ikallen@conference/oscon/session) Quit ()
[17:09:09] <brianoberkirch> tantek, is pingerati grabbing hresume updates from emurse?
[17:12:32] <tantek> pingerati is accepting and distributing pings to resumes.pingerati.net
[17:16:35] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
[17:16:36] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com and http://claimid.com/drewmclellan
[17:16:50] <whereisbot> drewinthehead is in Harrow, UK (guessed) [51.5667 x -0.3333]
[17:17:00] <drewinthehead> grr
[17:17:11] <drewinthehead> whereisbot help
[17:17:43] <ajturner> whereisbot: help
[17:17:45] <whereisbot> Hi, I'm whereisbot (a http://highearthorbit.com/project/whereisbot/)
[17:17:48] <whereisbot> Commands: whereami, wherearethey, whereis, whereisresp, whereisspeak
[17:17:52] <whereisbot> Try "whereisbot: help command?" if stuck. My owner is ajturner.
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[17:18:13] <whereisbot> ikallen is hiding behind the tapestries (conference/oscon/session)
[17:18:49] <drewinthehead> .whereis drewinthehead
[17:19:03] <whereisbot> drewinthehead is in Maidenhead, UK [51.5167 x -0.7]
[17:19:08] <drewinthehead> :)
[17:19:34] * ikallen (i=ikallen@conference/oscon/session) Quit (Client Quit)
[17:27:53] <drewinthehead> we should add instructions for whereisbot to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc if it's staying
[17:28:27] <trel1023> or kill it soon if it's not :)
[17:28:53] <ajturner> whereisbot is quiet now
[17:29:04] <ajturner> .whereisspeak off
[17:29:06] <whereisbot> whereis new user announcement turned off
[17:29:16] <ajturner> you can turn it back on if desired
[17:37:56] <drewinthehead> how's this for Web 2.0? http://www.puccinos.com/Outlets.php
[17:38:36] <drewinthehead> "drop us a line and we'll tell you where your nearest [coffee shop] is"
[17:38:51] <pnhChris> sooo tempting
[17:39:02] <pnhChris> Subject: hey there
[17:39:20] <pnhChris> Message: So, can you tell me where the nearest coffee shop is to me?
[17:39:48] <pnhChris> send
[17:39:54] <pnhChris> and hope they have a whereisbot :P
[17:40:50] <pnhChris> but it fails the web2.0 test because the fonts are too small
[17:41:11] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
[17:41:12] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
[17:41:14] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
[17:42:12] <drewinthehead> and because it's dumb
[17:45:31] <coris> not sure that's a valid web2.0 test.
[17:45:41] <coris> lack of dumbness
[17:45:51] <qid> the fonts are too small and the colors aren't pastel enough
[17:46:11] * valmont (n=chrishol@germany.pspdev.pas.earthlink.net) has joined #microformats
[17:46:15] <qid> and the bottom corners would have to be rounded as well
[17:46:51] <drewinthehead> it could do with leveraging more synergies
[17:47:17] <qid> I wonder what response I'd get if I asked for the nearest one
[17:49:15] <coris> I think mine would be Oxfordshire.
[17:50:00] * ikallen (i=ikallen@conference/oscon/session) has joined #microformats
[17:50:28] <drewinthehead> back in a while ...
[17:50:35] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthe_
[17:59:22] <tantek> Steve Martin has an hCard!
[17:59:35] <tantek> Read through to the end of http://tantek.com/log/2006/07.html#d27t1218
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[18:04:03] <kingryan> that's funny!
[18:04:13] <kingryan> *rimshot*
[18:05:26] <kingryan> I think that's bloggable on the mf.org
[18:08:56] <tantek> go for it!
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[18:14:26] <bewest> heh
[18:14:26] <bewest> neat
[18:15:54] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=7785 * Tantek * (+348)
[18:17:19] <bewest> tantek: your suggestion regarding page validation is in the same vain of many others I've seen
[18:17:37] <bewest> almost a hardline dismissal of anything that doesn't validate
[18:17:40] <kingryan> like this http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you ?
[18:18:04] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/blog/2006/07/28/steve-martin-has-an-hcard/
[18:18:05] <bewest> but there are many reasons a page might not validate and it's not as easy as you make it out to be
[18:18:20] <kingryan> what would these reasonable exceptions be, bewest?
[18:18:33] <bewest> when coding a new website, it's relatively easy to make sure things validate (with the exceptions of minor things like ampersands in uri's)
[18:18:37] <kingryan> btw, I admit my blog currently doesn't validate (fuck wordpress)
[18:18:53] <bewest> but probably most websites are legacy code that has been handed off by several people
[18:18:57] <dglazkov> kingryan: sorry, I won't help you
[18:19:02] <dglazkov> :)
[18:19:24] <bewest> Alexa's website is a mess in terms of validation... the reason is that there are probably millions of lines of code in disparate locations
[18:19:30] <bewest> different templates or no templates
[18:19:32] <bewest> et cet...
[18:19:45] <bewest> coupled with the fact that things mostly work even if the page doesn't validate
[18:20:10] <tantek> ah but it's the time you waste on the things that don't work that make it worth the time to validate in the first place
[18:20:32] <bewest> in the first place
[18:20:35] <bewest> but this is inherited
[18:20:46] <bewest> me and my coworkers have no say in the first place
[18:20:48] <bewest> we have what /is/
[18:21:02] <bewest> making the site validate is now a /huge/ undertaking
[18:21:15] <bewest> so much so it's almost unreasonable to do it
[18:21:25] <tantek> one page/template at a time
[18:21:38] <tantek> do it, and blog about it each step of the way
[18:21:45] <tantek> and explain why it was so difficult
[18:21:55] <tantek> and what you had to do
[18:22:01] <tantek> hopefully you'll help others do the same
[18:23:05] * schepers (i=schepers@nom12328smd.nomadic.ncsu.edu) has joined #microformats
[18:25:37] <tantek> bewest, note also that my critiques only *starts* with the invalidity, in spite of which we still critiqued other aspects of the code
[18:26:02] <qid> tantek: very small nit, the target attribute can also sometimes be replaced with a rel rather than a class
[18:26:07] <tantek> and that all these sites were very or fairly new sites submitted by the attendees of An Event Apart specifically to be crtiqued
[18:26:22] <tantek> qid, you should blog that ;)
[18:26:27] <qid> e.g. I use rel="external" to mark offsite links
[18:26:29] <tantek> (and you're right)
[18:26:34] <qid> I think I already did, heh
[18:27:10] <tantek> what I mean is, feel free to blog the very small nit in reference to my advice, and I'll gladly link to your suggestion as well
[18:27:11] <qid> http://www.wadny.com/news/during/2004/1/29/1707/
[18:27:29] <qid> ah
[18:27:31] <tantek> even better, then just do a minor update ;)
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[18:32:08] <qid> oh, and I discovered that <meta> description is still useful; firefox adds it to bookmarks as a description of the bookmark
[18:32:28] <pnhChris> a few places use description
[18:32:51] <pnhChris> i was looking at putting it back into a few places
[18:33:05] <pnhChris> not for search related boosts
[18:33:23] <kingryan> qid: I thought tantek only mentioned keywords, not description?
[18:33:44] <pnhChris> but for tools like ma.gnolia
[18:36:25] * pnhChris admits to not reading tantek's post yet
[18:45:00] <tantek> qid, that's why I only mentioned meta keywords
[18:45:21] <tantek> even Google seems to use meta description even though it ignores meta keywords
[18:46:17] <tantek> but AFAIK, only in the "description" underneath a URL in search results. I have no evidence that it is used in search relevance or indexing.
[18:46:59] <bewest> yes, we progressively are updating one thing at a time
[18:48:29] <bewest> as far as blogging; blogging is done kind of poorly here
[18:48:44] <bewest> partially because anything public facing has to go through amazon legal/marketing/PR
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[18:53:30] <kingryan> uggg
[18:53:45] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
[18:53:58] <kingryan> legal + marketing + pr = an evil triumvirate
[18:56:25] <tantek> bewest, but after you have updated a public page, the results are public
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[18:56:41] <tantek> so presumably commenting on the sout�]�code (which anyone can see via view source) is also safe enough
[18:56:49] <tantek> or pointing out that a page validates
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[19:18:41] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-137-126-192.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
[19:18:41] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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[19:31:10] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[19:31:10] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
[19:31:32] <mfbot> [[User:TerrellRussell]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:TerrellRussell * TerrellRussell * (+289)
[19:31:58] <Enric> Hello, I'm looking to implement a format for designating start and end locations within videos. Would it be worthwhile to discuss that here?
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[19:36:07] <tantek> hi Enric
[19:36:19] <tantek> that sounds like something KevinMarks might have some experience with
[19:36:40] <tantek> can you start by finding URLs of where people designate start and end locations within videos on the Web?
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[19:37:15] <Enric> Hi Tantek :)...OK, I'll see if Kevin responds or email him otherwise
[19:37:24] <KevinMarks> hi
[19:37:32] <Enric> The implementations I've seen are proprietory...usually in Flash.
[19:37:42] * bear is now known as bear42
[19:37:44] <KevinMarks> SMIL has a way to do this
[19:37:53] <KevinMarks> the problem is that doing it consistently is hard
[19:37:56] <tantek> Enric, the key is, does anyone actually publish this information currently *visibly* in content on the web?
[19:38:36] <Enric> I don't know of any...I can look some more.
[19:38:37] <KevinMarks> there is a difference between the 'chapter-list/running order' stuff that peopel do publish (see a lot fo podcasts)
[19:38:49] <KevinMarks> and trying to do a frame-accurate edit
[19:39:05] <KevinMarks> which is hard to do without knowing the underlying media quantum
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[19:40:10] <Enric> Yes, I'm not requiring frame accuracy.
[19:40:18] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
[19:40:30] <Enric> And, no I don't know of any open HTML formats for this.
[19:40:38] <Enric> but I should look some more.
[19:42:59] <Enric> test: <div>
[19:43:33] <Enric> ok the one I found is from http://www.mobvcasting.com/wp/?p=244 and a sample of it's implemenation is
[19:43:42] <Enric> <div class="non_live_comment" style="cursor:pointer;" onClick="navigate(0);">
[19:43:52] <Enric> Jonny, Jonny Jonny!<br>
[19:44:00] <Enric> <b class="username">Administrator</b> <span class="timecode">00:00:15</span>
[19:44:08] <Enric> </div>
[19:44:12] <Enric> </div>
[19:45:46] <Enric> so the timecode jump or chapter is specified by <span class="timecode">...</span>
[19:47:04] <Enric> I have an alternative implemenation that I want to do using the shape and coords atttribuetes of the a anchor tag.
[19:47:26] <Enric> examples: <a href="http://www.myserver.com/mymove.mov" shape="rect" coords="160,31,182,13" ...>
[19:47:34] <Enric> So coords is coords="<seconds start>,<milliseconds start>,<seconds end>,<milliseconds end>"
[19:47:46] <Enric> rect is for 4 coords entries which works well for setting the seconds, miliseconds start and end.
[19:48:25] <Enric> Any thoughts or should I put this up on a page for responses?
[19:49:14] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=7786 * SajidSaiyed * (+482) Implementations -
[19:49:55] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=7787 * SajidSaiyed * (+0) Implementations -
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[19:55:08] <Enric> Anyhow, I'll be back in a bit and check if there's a response then.
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[19:55:31] <KevinMarks> I think using a spatial mapping is a bit abusive
[19:57:01] <Enric> The thing is I don't think the timecode should be visible information...it's for the code to implement, not necessarily for the user to see.
[19:57:20] <KevinMarks> well, that depends on how you are going to implement it
[19:57:38] <Enric> the coords attribute allows for the time location to be used but not visible.
[19:57:40] <KevinMarks> the chapter list exampels put it there in h:m:s form
[19:57:50] <KevinMarks> so people cna drag the slider in their player to it
[19:58:17] <Enric> I see..good point.
[19:58:18] <KevinMarks> if the player supports explicit chaptering (as QuickTime does) you can translate this
[19:59:32] <KevinMarks> and the coords attribute in <a> does nto apply to the href of the a
[19:59:49] <KevinMarks> it applies to a co-ordinate space within the container
[20:00:04] <Enric> Yes, I know...but it can be implemented by the javascript call I have in my utility, vPIP.
[20:00:16] <Enric> But, I understand it's not logical.
[20:00:41] <KevinMarks> You may eb better off using the ABBR pattern we sue elsewhere for datetimes
[20:01:11] <KevinMarks> have a human readble [h]:m:s, and a machine readable frame-accurate offset in the abbr
[20:01:18] <KevinMarks> milliseconds aren't frame accurate
[20:01:32] <Enric> The implementation I'm looking for is time start at end because it will be coupled with tagging sections of video. So would <span class="timecodestart">00:00:15</span><span class="timecodeend">00:01:32;12</span> make sense?
[20:01:34] <KevinMarks> and you need to be careful about dropframe timecode and so on
[20:02:07] <Enric> Good idea on ABBR, I'll look at that :)
[20:02:11] * brianoberkirch (n=brianobe@adsl-065-005-209-171.sip.msy.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
[20:02:38] <KevinMarks> the issue with timecode is PAL/NTSC/24fps oddities
[20:02:43] <KevinMarks> and drop non-drop
[20:02:56] <KevinMarks> the ; distingusishes in the NTSC drop, non-drop case
[20:03:02] <Enric> yes then video is usually 30 or 15 fps
[20:03:16] <KevinMarks> no, thats an American-centric view
[20:03:25] <KevinMarks> Europe it's 25
[20:03:36] <Enric> ; usually distinguishes frames for hh:mm:ss
[20:03:39] <KevinMarks> if it's fil-derived or in some of the HD it can eb 24
[20:03:46] <Enric> so hh:mm:ss;fr
[20:03:54] <KevinMarks> that means dropframe
[20:04:01] <Enric> oh..ok
[20:04:15] <Enric> thanks
[20:04:18] <KevinMarks> ie 30000/1001 framerate with the 'skip one in 1000' pattern
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[20:04:45] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
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[20:05:15] <Enric> I think I should put a page up on this for comments once I incorporte some of this... I'll let you know where it is when it's ready.
[20:06:39] <KevinMarks> great
[20:06:42] <jibot> Rinoa is the ultimate evil
[20:07:03] <KevinMarks> I think chapters are somethign worth codifying
[20:07:50] <Enric> (the easiest thing is to implement seconds/milliseconds which is the calls in most video such as flash, quicktime and wmv. But I can see that for the user timecode makes more sense, but harder to implement.)
[20:09:10] <Enric> yes, I do to...actually what I want to implement is tagging within video so it's tag=timecodestart to timecode end
[20:09:32] <Enric> or actually tags...not just one.
[20:09:49] <KevinMarks> hm
[20:10:08] <KevinMarks> tags and chapters could share an underlying timeref idea
[20:10:21] <KevinMarks> chapters are normally end to end, so you only specifiy starts
[20:10:42] <Enric> good point, I'll need to look at how chapters work more.
[20:11:24] <Enric> I see tags need start to end since they can overlap and will be aggregated as sepearte pieces from multiple locations.
[20:11:31] <KevinMarks> right
[20:12:06] <Enric> ok, I'll let you know.
[20:12:14] * pnhChris wonders if there are any examples of client lists via hresume floating around out there
[20:13:16] <pnhChris> and no.. the spin through the wiki examples didn't lead to much
[20:15:15] <pnhChris> XFN doesn't seem to give a way to accurately reflect the relationship.. except for those compaines i have a crush on
[20:15:27] * drewinthe_ is now known as drewinthehead
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[20:25:10] <KevinMarks> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50.html is rather good
[20:27:11] * coris (n=cori@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit (" Death before decaf!")
[20:40:52] <mfbot> [[transit-table-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=transit-table-examples&diff=0&oldid=7788 * Leikam * (+72) Acknowledgment - +link to discussion thread
[20:56:11] <bewest> hehe
[20:56:17] <bewest> no pages will validate for a long time
[20:56:25] <bewest> we have made up attributes and doctypes all over the palce
[20:57:45] <bewest> I like the commented source idea though
[20:57:55] <bewest> it's like a secret
[20:57:56] <bewest> heh
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[21:25:55] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[21:26:15] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
[21:26:36] <KevinMarks> tantek, did you see http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50.html ?
[21:26:48] <KevinMarks> looks very sensible
[21:28:37] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
[21:29:22] <tantek> except the URL of the latest version of the document: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50-2006-06-7
[21:29:26] <tantek> quite ironic
[21:29:28] <tantek> two years
[21:29:51] <bewest> interesting that the editors notes are marked up using <table>
[21:29:51] <tantek> and the day "7" is not 0 padded
[21:30:04] <bewest> you never know... could be the 70th day
[21:30:21] <tantek> no bewest
[21:30:24] <tantek> top of the doc says:
[21:30:25] <tantek> [Editor's Draft] TAG Finding CVS $Id: URNsAndRegistries-50.html,v 1.12 2006/06/07 10:39:55
[21:30:29] <bewest> oh oh
[21:30:34] <bewest> :-)
[21:30:39] <tantek> layout tables? you gotta be kidding me
[21:30:42] <bewest> no
[21:30:44] <bewest> check it out
[21:31:18] * tantek glosses over the obvious foibles and reads the content
[21:31:47] <bewest> the examples are marked up a little funny too
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[21:33:10] <tantek> yeah
[21:33:52] * tantek chuckles at how much "XML Experts" don't even bother to use semantic XHTML.
[21:34:05] <tantek> When I realized that was when I realized I needed lots more grains of salt.
[21:34:46] <KevinMarks> well, if you boil the ocean, you get a lot of salt left over
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[21:37:16] <bewest> huh?
[21:39:43] <KevinMarks> "boiling the ocean" is our shorthand for 'doing far more work than is needed, to the point of taking on something that can never be completed'
[21:40:21] <bewest> what about needing salt?
[21:40:37] <kingryan> salt makes it boil faster, no?
[21:40:38] <bewest> and how can you get leftovers from something that can't be completed?
[21:40:50] <bewest> salt raises the boiling temperature of water
[21:41:03] <kingryan> I thought it lowered the temperature
[21:41:04] <kingryan> ?
[21:41:09] <bewest> so no, it takes more heat/longer to boil salt water
[21:41:14] <bewest> which is why we throw salt on icy roads
[21:41:21] <bewest> erm
[21:41:40] <bewest> raises the freezing point
[21:41:50] <bewest> I suppose it raises the boiling point
[21:42:06] <KevinMarks> surely lowers the freezing point
[21:42:35] <bewest> erm
[21:42:37] <bewest> lowers the freezing point
[21:42:44] <bewest> it pushes both points away from eachother :-)
[21:42:48] <kingryan> and lowers the boiling point?
[21:42:55] <bewest> no
[21:43:03] <bewest> it takes more heat to boil
[21:43:12] <bewest> raises boiling point and lowers freezing point
[21:43:29] <KevinMarks> http://epeus.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_epeus_archive.html#110253460528868806
[21:44:41] <bewest> http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/bio99/bio99359.htm
[21:45:43] <kingryan> wikipedia disagrees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiled_pasta
[21:45:48] <kingryan> its says that salt has no effect
[21:45:54] <bewest> so the government is wrong?
[21:46:10] <kingryan> likewise here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling-point_elevation
[21:46:38] <kingryan> of course, WP disagrees with itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling
[21:46:47] <kingryan> there is says salt raises the boiling point
[21:47:26] <bewest> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling-point_elevation
[21:47:29] <KevinMarks> well, it does, but not measurably
[21:47:29] <bewest> it does
[21:47:41] <bewest> the quantity involved when cooking is statistically equivalent to nothing
[21:48:08] <bewest> specifically any solution generally has an elevated boiling point that the original solvent
[21:48:22] <bewest> so putting just about anything in water will make it take longer to boil
[21:48:32] <KevinMarks> salt can act as a nucletion source to avoid superheating
[21:48:54] <bewest> which is why when you throw your pasta in the boiling water, it stops boiling for a few moments
[21:48:55] <KevinMarks> remember 'anti-bumping granules' ?
[21:48:58] <bewest> no
[21:49:20] <bewest> but I haven't taken any science since high school or so
[21:49:34] <bewest> and no physics, then
[21:51:03] <bewest> the "boiling the ocean" bit is nifty though
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[22:27:52] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=7789 * 1234567 * (+146) Cork'd -
[22:29:03] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=7790 * 1234567 * (+19) Citycita -
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[22:36:54] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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[22:53:09] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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[23:30:30] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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[23:40:46] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
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