IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-08-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  3. [00:07:13] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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  20. [01:48:44] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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  22. [01:50:28] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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  32. [03:05:00] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  33. [03:05:21] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) has joined #microformats
  34. [03:23:13] <mfbot> [[Resume.app]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Resume.app * Chris Messina * (+610)
  35. [03:29:13] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.19-156.clta.globetrotter.net) Quit ()
  36. [03:52:05] <mfbot> [[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8168 * Chris Messina * (+27)
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  41. [04:39:31] * tantek (n=tantek@pool-71-104-100-213.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  42. [04:39:32] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  43. [04:39:49] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  44. [04:46:53] <factoryjoe> tantek:
  45. [04:46:56] <factoryjoe> hi!
  46. [04:47:04] <factoryjoe> http://microformats.org/wiki/Resume.app
  47. [04:49:23] <tantek> ???
  48. [04:53:00] <factoryjoe> it's an effort to create a desktop client that spits out hresumes
  49. [04:54:20] <tantek> how about a widget instead?
  50. [04:54:24] <tantek> should be much simpler
  51. [04:54:33] <tantek> and smaller
  52. [04:54:47] <factoryjoe> i'd like something that works like Address Book.app
  53. [04:54:49] <factoryjoe> besides
  54. [04:54:53] <factoryjoe> it's like going to be a webkit app
  55. [04:54:56] <tantek> what, slow and piggy?
  56. [04:54:59] <factoryjoe> see http://webkit.pbwiki.com
  57. [04:55:13] <factoryjoe> no, native and slick
  58. [04:55:17] <tantek> Address Book is a terribly inefficient app
  59. [04:55:31] <factoryjoe> we're talking about a resume app
  60. [04:55:36] <factoryjoe> you won't use it that often
  61. [04:55:42] <factoryjoe> and besides, i have people already working on
  62. [04:55:43] <factoryjoe> it
  63. [04:55:51] <factoryjoe> it should be fast and dirty
  64. [04:55:57] <tantek> installing stuff always sucks
  65. [04:55:57] <factoryjoe> ideally w/ a widget component
  66. [04:56:03] <factoryjoe> not on the mac, dude
  67. [04:56:03] <tantek> that's the fundamental problem with desktop apps
  68. [04:56:06] <factoryjoe> besides
  69. [04:56:08] <tantek> any anything
  70. [04:56:10] <factoryjoe> it'll sync w/ web services
  71. [04:56:12] <tantek> on anything
  72. [04:56:18] <factoryjoe> or upload via .mac or fto
  73. [04:56:21] <factoryjoe> ftp
  74. [04:56:40] <factoryjoe> brb
  75. [04:57:22] <tantek> the other problem "native" applications is inflexible user interfaces
  76. [04:59:43] <tantek> and fewer people that can update them
  77. [04:59:46] <tantek> maintain them
  78. [05:00:21] <tantek> unless something is computationally intensive, there is no good reason to write it as a "native" app, and plenty of reasons not to.
  79. [05:05:33] <trel1023> web chris - web
  80. [05:08:44] <factoryjoe> eez
  81. [05:08:54] <factoryjoe> well
  82. [05:09:08] <factoryjoe> i've not seen all that many web-based compelling mF UIs
  83. [05:09:17] <factoryjoe> and the apple UI stuff takes care of so much of that
  84. [05:09:23] <factoryjoe> that i'm willing to start there
  85. [05:09:25] <factoryjoe> set the bar
  86. [05:09:31] <factoryjoe> and then you guys can rewrite for the web
  87. [05:09:37] <factoryjoe> it'll be MIT licensed
  88. [05:09:43] <factoryjoe> so you can take it and do what you like
  89. [05:09:51] <factoryjoe> i'm working w/ the emurse.com guy
  90. [05:09:55] <factoryjoe> and some other folks
  91. [05:10:00] <tantek> sure, bootstrapping
  92. [05:10:02] <factoryjoe> we'll see if it even happens
  93. [05:10:08] <factoryjoe> but it's a good idea
  94. [05:10:11] <factoryjoe> and could set the model
  95. [05:10:13] <tantek> also good to try different approaches
  96. [05:10:15] <tantek> i'm just saying
  97. [05:10:20] <tantek> don't get your hopes up for native apps
  98. [05:10:21] <factoryjoe> for an address book that's driven by html
  99. [05:10:25] <tantek> they typically start with a bang
  100. [05:10:26] <factoryjoe> they're not up
  101. [05:10:28] <tantek> and then whimper
  102. [05:10:40] <factoryjoe> web apps rarely achieve a bang though in the first place
  103. [05:10:44] <factoryjoe> at least not yet
  104. [05:10:49] <tantek> but they iterate *fast*
  105. [05:10:52] <tantek> unlike native apps
  106. [05:11:04] <factoryjoe> mm
  107. [05:11:09] <factoryjoe> well webkit apps are html-based
  108. [05:11:09] <tantek> and without the user having to constantly download/update crap
  109. [05:11:13] <factoryjoe> yeah
  110. [05:11:15] <factoryjoe> still
  111. [05:11:16] <tantek> yep
  112. [05:11:20] <tantek> that seals it for the 90/10
  113. [05:11:23] <tantek> less hassle
  114. [05:11:25] <factoryjoe> it's an experiment
  115. [05:11:28] <tantek> less maintenance
  116. [05:11:28] <factoryjoe> i hear what you're saying
  117. [05:11:31] <factoryjoe> but i have mac devs
  118. [05:11:33] <factoryjoe> not html devs
  119. [05:11:40] <factoryjoe> so unless you have coders @ your disposal
  120. [05:11:43] <factoryjoe> i'm going w/ what i've got
  121. [05:11:54] <factoryjoe> in fact
  122. [05:11:59] <tantek> going with what you've got is good :)
  123. [05:12:01] <factoryjoe> you can go download the hresume wordpress plugin
  124. [05:12:05] <factoryjoe> and tweak the UI yourself
  125. [05:12:09] <factoryjoe> we're building off of that
  126. [05:12:11] <tantek> just don't be under any impression that native apps are better
  127. [05:12:14] <tantek> for this kind of thing
  128. [05:12:20] <tantek> realize they are a compromise
  129. [05:12:34] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable163.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  130. [05:12:34] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  131. [05:13:12] <factoryjoe> yeah
  132. [05:13:29] <factoryjoe> well until i can drag and drop photos in a webapp from my desktop and have it just "work" i think there's reasons to go native
  133. [05:13:36] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable163.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Client Quit)
  134. [05:13:59] <tantek> factoryjoe, I believe you can make that work in IE6 ;)
  135. [05:14:15] <factoryjoe> right, as soon as i can afford an intel-based mac, i'll get right on that
  136. [05:14:16] <factoryjoe> :P
  137. [05:14:40] <tantek> i hear those macbooks are quite reasonable
  138. [05:15:38] <factoryjoe> they are, they are
  139. [05:15:44] <tantek> i'm still waiting to get my iBookG4 back from depot
  140. [05:15:45] <factoryjoe> but not when i just bout two apple displays
  141. [05:21:24] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d36-106-215.home1.cgocable.net) Quit ()
  142. [05:26:19] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("back soon, no doubt")
  143. [05:49:04] <factoryjoe> tantek: go whoop some ass: http://www.seomoz.org/blogdetail.php?ID=1282
  144. [05:49:28] * DanC (n=connolly@pdpc/supporter/active/DanC) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  145. [05:52:10] <tantek> factoryjoe, looks like you took care of it :)
  146. [05:55:59] <mfbot> [[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8169 * Vmarks * (+1451) Draft Specification -
  147. [05:59:10] <tantek> it's not really a specification right?
  148. [05:59:56] <factoryjoe> )
  149. [06:00:03] <factoryjoe> what;s not?
  150. [06:00:14] <tantek> resume.app
  151. [06:01:47] <factoryjoe> ah
  152. [06:01:58] <factoryjoe> well i would have put it under /tools/resume.app
  153. [06:02:05] <factoryjoe> but the wiki doesn't support directories
  154. [06:02:20] <tantek> no need for directories
  155. [06:02:23] <factoryjoe> i don't mind having it moved
  156. [06:02:27] <factoryjoe> i didn't know where else to put it
  157. [06:02:31] <factoryjoe> oh, and one more thing
  158. [06:02:34] <tantek> premature hierarchy is the cause of lots of excessive complexity
  159. [06:02:44] <tantek> i wasn't complaining about "where to put it"
  160. [06:02:52] <tantek> check the headings on the page
  161. [06:02:52] <factoryjoe> i think that the more client apps that support mFs (both as data stores and as producers) is a good thing
  162. [06:03:00] <tantek> well yes of course
  163. [06:03:00] <factoryjoe> ah
  164. [06:03:15] <factoryjoe> "premature hierarchy" as in the current document structure?
  165. [06:03:37] <tantek> e.g. are you reading the mfbot traffic in the channel?
  166. [06:03:53] <factoryjoe> ah ha
  167. [06:04:05] <tantek> mfbot is worth listening to
  168. [06:04:14] <factoryjoe> ;)
  169. [06:05:07] <tantek> premature hierarchy as in thinking of putting something in a "tools" directory instead of just putting it right there at the top
  170. [06:05:11] <mfbot> [[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8170 * Chris Messina * (+18) Moved victor's description
  171. [06:10:39] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  172. [06:11:07] <factoryjoe> hi vmarks, meet tantek
  173. [06:12:33] <vmarks> hi tantek!
  174. [06:12:37] <tantek> hello
  175. [06:13:06] <factoryjoe> so vmarks is helping out with resume.app
  176. [06:13:16] <factoryjoe> we're just fumbling through spec'ing it out right now
  177. [06:13:32] <factoryjoe> but the idea was raised and he had a bunch of ideas
  178. [06:13:39] <factoryjoe> so we're going to see how far we can get
  179. [06:13:47] <tantek> cool. wikis are good for writing that stuff down and letting it bake.
  180. [06:16:50] <factoryjoe> yeah, we'll see how this unfolds
  181. [06:17:00] <factoryjoe> i've not seen a mF-powered application developed yet
  182. [06:17:21] <factoryjoe> i love the idea of being able to load either remote or local URLs and having the app be able to extract the hresume data
  183. [06:17:29] <vmarks> seems to be a good fit here.
  184. [06:18:32] <mfbot> [[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8171 * Vmarks * (+94) Draft Specification -
  185. [06:19:00] * vmarks just added remote URLs to the list is all.
  186. [06:19:17] <KevinMarks> factoryjoe: talking of app support: http://trac.macosforge.org/projects/collaboration/ticket/19
  187. [06:19:49] <KevinMarks> I need to upgrade to Tiger and Python 2.4 to test it
  188. [06:19:58] <mfbot> [[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8172 * Chris Messina * (+412)
  189. [06:19:58] <KevinMarks> but ti is in python+twisted
  190. [06:20:10] * factoryjoe goes to look
  191. [06:20:24] <factoryjoe> who is wsanchez@apple.com?
  192. [06:20:33] <vmarks> wilfredo.
  193. [06:20:51] <vmarks> I believe that's the fella most familiar with apple's use of the mach kernel.
  194. [06:21:16] <factoryjoe> heh "type changed from Defect to Feature."
  195. [06:21:20] <factoryjoe> huh nice
  196. [06:21:47] <KevinMarks> it's their OSS CalDAV app
  197. [06:22:02] <KevinMarks> had a nice chat with wifredo about hCalendar yesterday
  198. [06:22:38] <factoryjoe> oh?>
  199. [06:22:41] <factoryjoe> excellent!
  200. [06:22:42] <factoryjoe> so!!
  201. [06:22:51] <factoryjoe> they have this RSS framework in leopard
  202. [06:23:00] <factoryjoe> heck, that's where we need to get support for microformats
  203. [06:23:05] <factoryjoe> in the CORE os
  204. [06:23:32] <KevinMarks> oh god, another one?
  205. [06:23:38] <KevinMarks> they had 3 in iTunes alone
  206. [06:23:45] <factoryjoe> 3 rss frameworks?
  207. [06:23:56] <KevinMarks> yes
  208. [06:24:06] <factoryjoe> wtf
  209. [06:26:02] <KevinMarks> remember what tantek was just saying about app software?
  210. [06:26:22] <factoryjoe> ah
  211. [06:27:42] <KevinMarks> http://www.valleywag.com/tech/web2ooh/web-two-point-ooh-ladies-round-194762.php - tara wins the t-shirt competition
  212. [06:28:50] <tantek> heh
  213. [06:29:21] <factoryjoe> no kiddin
  214. [06:30:20] <KevinMarks> do we need to send all the others microformat t-shirts to even things out?
  215. [06:30:56] <tantek> I just gave one to Micki a few days ago
  216. [06:31:47] <KevinMarks> didn't valerie get one too?
  217. [06:32:04] <tantek> not sure
  218. [06:32:16] <tantek> i may have given her one - i lose track
  219. [06:37:21] <factoryjoe> heh
  220. [06:37:22] <factoryjoe> http://halr9000.com/article/322
  221. [06:37:26] <factoryjoe> need some guns boys
  222. [06:37:28] <factoryjoe> back me up
  223. [06:37:31] <factoryjoe> i'm goin in
  224. [06:42:47] <tantek> factoryjoe, the key is
  225. [06:43:07] <tantek> that users shouldn't have to worry about import/export
  226. [06:43:18] <tantek> and the Web is the dominant publishing and storage medium
  227. [06:43:25] <factoryjoe> yep
  228. [06:44:24] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
  229. [06:44:34] <tantek> user data should be stored in a user friendly format
  230. [06:45:00] <tantek> not in some intermediate machine friendly format which the user the has to transform in order to view/manipulate/publish
  231. [06:45:04] <tantek> /share
  232. [06:45:18] <tantek> user centered design is the key here
  233. [06:45:23] <factoryjoe> do you mind if i borrow from that?
  234. [06:45:29] <factoryjoe> i think he makes a good point in some ways
  235. [06:45:32] <factoryjoe> from a design perspective
  236. [06:45:40] <factoryjoe> the xml is tighter than the xhtml
  237. [06:45:49] <tantek> tighter along what axis?
  238. [06:45:59] <factoryjoe> less bulk
  239. [06:46:17] <factoryjoe> w/ xhtml, visually, you have to ignore the divs and spans to read it
  240. [06:46:30] <factoryjoe> w/ xmpp
  241. [06:46:31] <tantek> but that's what makes it maximally portable
  242. [06:46:36] <factoryjoe> i know
  243. [06:46:41] <factoryjoe> so you have to be careful as well though
  244. [06:46:43] <tantek> you end up sacrificing portability for a few percentage of bytes
  245. [06:46:45] <tantek> big mistake
  246. [06:46:49] <factoryjoe> anh
  247. [06:46:52] <factoryjoe> it's not just bytes
  248. [06:46:54] <factoryjoe> it's readability
  249. [06:47:01] <tantek> totally premature optimization
  250. [06:47:02] <tantek> nope
  251. [06:47:03] <factoryjoe> my mom could understand the xmpp better than the xhtml
  252. [06:47:06] <tantek> xhtml is more readable
  253. [06:47:08] <tantek> for more people
  254. [06:47:09] <tantek> than xml
  255. [06:47:21] <tantek> no chance factoryjoe
  256. [06:47:28] <factoryjoe> i think you're presuming a certain level of education and experience
  257. [06:47:30] <tantek> web designers can read and *write* xhtml
  258. [06:47:37] <tantek> far more than xml
  259. [06:47:38] <factoryjoe> they can also read/write xml
  260. [06:47:44] <tantek> not true
  261. [06:47:46] <factoryjoe> it jsut won't be useful xml
  262. [06:47:48] <factoryjoe> totally true!
  263. [06:47:56] <tantek> random xml yes
  264. [06:48:02] <tantek> but not anything that is interoperable
  265. [06:48:03] <factoryjoe> <tantek>bollocks</tantek>
  266. [06:48:04] <tantek> that's the point
  267. [06:48:05] <factoryjoe> look, i wrote xml
  268. [06:48:08] <factoryjoe> yep
  269. [06:48:13] <factoryjoe> you have to be careful
  270. [06:48:21] <factoryjoe> as a non-developer touting the microformats gospel
  271. [06:48:29] <factoryjoe> i get made fun of enough to know the anti-arguments
  272. [06:48:40] <tantek> there are more non-developers than developers
  273. [06:48:46] <tantek> 1000x more web authors
  274. [06:48:49] <tantek> than web developers
  275. [06:49:01] <factoryjoe> 100000000x non web developers or developers
  276. [06:49:04] <tantek> the mistakes in that article start at the very beginning
  277. [06:49:04] <factoryjoe> think about it
  278. [06:49:09] <tantek> e.g.
  279. [06:49:14] <tantek> look at the new names they invented
  280. [06:49:18] <tantek> EXTADD ?
  281. [06:49:23] <tantek> PCODE ?
  282. [06:49:25] <tantek> CTRY ?
  283. [06:49:36] <factoryjoe> the number of people who *make* car to the number of drivers is about equal to the ratio of people who dev the web vs those who surf it
  284. [06:49:38] <tantek> this is the classic problem with XML culture
  285. [06:49:44] <factoryjoe> yeah, it's crap
  286. [06:49:48] <tantek> they don't get how big of a problem it is that they invent their own names for stuff
  287. [06:49:49] <factoryjoe> just like the google calendar API
  288. [06:49:52] <tantek> and result in incompatibility
  289. [06:49:55] <tantek> and non-interoperability
  290. [06:49:58] <factoryjoe> yes
  291. [06:50:09] <tantek> no, car analogy is false
  292. [06:50:18] <tantek> better analogy is people that write letters
  293. [06:50:34] <tantek> the skill required to write/publish HTML is trivial compared to building a car
  294. [06:51:11] <tantek> you have to accept that in the shortterm there will be lots of transitional XML formats
  295. [06:51:16] <tantek> that have little spurts of adoption
  296. [06:51:20] <tantek> and then die off
  297. [06:51:21] <factoryjoe> yes
  298. [06:51:27] <tantek> don't worry too much about that
  299. [06:51:31] <factoryjoe> what makes you think MF will last?
  300. [06:51:36] <tantek> focus instead of helping develop the microformat alternatives
  301. [06:51:40] <tantek> which will be longer lasting
  302. [06:51:47] <tantek> because they will be understood and reused by many more
  303. [06:51:56] <factoryjoe> that's the bet i'm making
  304. [06:52:01] <factoryjoe> i feel like luke skywalker
  305. [06:52:01] <tantek> because microformats do a much better job at reusing names
  306. [06:52:03] <factoryjoe> ha!
  307. [06:52:08] <factoryjoe> yes, obie wan
  308. [06:52:11] <tantek> as simple as picking "extended-address" instead of EXTADD
  309. [06:52:13] <factoryjoe> you have taught me well master
  310. [06:52:21] <tantek> really, the XML crowd can't help but make the dumbest renaming mistakes
  311. [06:52:26] <tantek> it's the nature of XML culture
  312. [06:52:31] <tantek> to invent new names for no good reason
  313. [06:52:36] <factoryjoe> it's the nature of the dark side
  314. [06:52:43] <tantek> no, just NIH side
  315. [06:52:50] <factoryjoe> NIH/
  316. [06:52:51] <tantek> they're not doing it out of any dark intent
  317. [06:52:51] <factoryjoe> ?
  318. [06:52:57] <tantek> ?def NIH
  319. [06:52:57] <jibot> NIH is Not Invented Here and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_Here and also the National Instututes of Health
  320. [06:53:00] <factoryjoe> ah ha
  321. [06:53:20] <tantek> reread this factoryjoe: http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles
  322. [06:54:18] <tantek> and this: http://microformats.org/wiki/plain-old-xml-considered-harmful
  323. [06:54:58] <factoryjoe> i think that this is pretty powerful "XML elements are limited to one "name" and thus semantic, whereas the class attribute is a space separated set of names and can thus capture multiple semantics, providing a much more flexible semantic structure for authors, and greatly aiding in following DRY."
  324. [06:55:38] <tantek> yes, that is a pretty big one
  325. [06:55:57] <tantek> XML essentially forces you to prefer the hierarchy of the markup to the actual semantics of the content
  326. [06:56:01] <tantek> which is of course backwards
  327. [06:56:06] <tantek> the semantics of the content should come first
  328. [06:56:12] <tantek> and the markup should adapt to it
  329. [06:56:17] <tantek> not vice versa
  330. [06:57:07] <factoryjoe> yeah
  331. [06:57:10] <mfbot> [[hresume]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=8173 * Steve Ganz * (+0) Reverted edit of Duck1123, changed back to last version by Kelly Chambers
  332. [06:57:30] * brianoberkirch (n=brianobe@adsl-065-005-209-171.sip.msy.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  333. [06:57:30] <factoryjoe> another: http://volition.vee.net/archives/000670.html
  334. [06:58:22] <KevinMarks> that is a very powerful one
  335. [06:58:53] <KevinMarks> in xml, the attribute/child split is also arbitrary
  336. [06:59:09] <tantek> Kevinmarks, sort of
  337. [06:59:12] <tantek> but that's kind of a strawman
  338. [06:59:27] <KevinMarks> in microfromats, it is a distinction between human-led and machine-led
  339. [06:59:34] <tantek> since most who design XML languages have design principles that are used for element vs. attribute
  340. [07:00:13] * tantek just noticed someone snuck a Ligers reference into hResume. Heh.
  341. [07:01:01] <factoryjoe> ;)
  342. [07:01:11] <factoryjoe> in fact, *reverted* to the ligers reference
  343. [07:01:21] <KevinMarks> I think 'most' is pushing it
  344. [07:03:44] <tantek> KevinMarks, perhaps I'm being a bit charitable there. But I prefer to do that rather than depend on a strawman.
  345. [07:03:56] <factoryjoe> tantek: http://halr9000.com/article/322#comment-2332
  346. [07:05:32] <KevinMarks> I was basing that on observation - it becomes one more damn thing peopel quibble over, but if there are good principled docs to read
  347. [07:05:48] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@adsl-62-167-38-123.adslplus.ch) has joined #microformats
  348. [07:05:54] <factoryjoe> "Cool, that also means that there is no need to use microformats in the file format that the client uses for storing the raw log files on disk, it makes far more sense in a the jabber world to use a defined xml format that is far more easier to process and extend cleanly in future than a microformat.
  349. [07:05:55] <factoryjoe> although there is also the argument that you could just use xslt to transform the log file into html and that could even be done in the browser, it works fine in IE, i would expect that firefox would be fine too."
  350. [07:06:25] <tantek> ah, the obsolete dual desktop browser thinking
  351. [07:06:27] <tantek> sad
  352. [07:06:35] <tantek> someone get those folks a blackberry/sidekick/treo stat!
  353. [07:06:58] <factoryjoe> no joke
  354. [07:07:24] <tantek> KevinMarks, re: principled docs, ahem, here are a few simple notes that address the element/attribute issue: http://tantek.com/log/2004/07.html#d27t1049
  355. [07:10:18] <tantek> factoryjoe, that same "treatment" is necessary for all the "we only design for AJAX capable browsers" folks.
  356. [07:10:31] <factoryjoe> agreed
  357. [07:10:42] <tantek> because, of course, you wouldn't want those high income bracket folks using their devices to browser your site and do ecommerce right?
  358. [07:10:42] <KevinMarks> someone in another chat said they had hired a web designer who only knew CSS, and had never learned table-based layout
  359. [07:10:59] <tantek> Kevinmarks, that is more the norm these days than not
  360. [07:11:07] <tantek> As long as the person has 5 or less years of experience
  361. [07:11:10] <tantek> that's the key.
  362. [07:12:40] <factoryjoe> KevinMarks: that was in the sykpe barcamp channel
  363. [07:12:46] <factoryjoe> crystal from raincity
  364. [07:12:50] <KevinMarks> right
  365. [07:13:03] <KevinMarks> just before skype took over 75% of my cpu and I had to kill it
  366. [07:13:05] <tantek> their numbers are growing
  367. [07:13:21] <tantek> the table based designer is a dying breed
  368. [07:13:26] <factoryjoe> yes
  369. [07:14:12] <bunnywabbit_> tantek: what were you pinging me about?
  370. [07:14:22] <tantek> i wasn't
  371. [07:14:26] <tantek> i ponged you ;)
  372. [07:16:58] <bunnywabbit_> ah
  373. [07:17:00] <bunnywabbit_> then
  374. [07:17:09] <bunnywabbit_> what were you ponging me about weeks back?
  375. [07:17:10] <bunnywabbit_> oh
  376. [07:17:15] <bunnywabbit_> in response to a ping of mine?
  377. [07:17:28] * tantek watches the wheels turn. ;)
  378. [07:17:34] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  379. [07:17:34] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  380. [07:17:45] <factoryjoe> heya drewinthehead
  381. [07:18:19] <KevinMarks> well, tantek, your example is the microformat rationale
  382. [07:18:51] <tantek> no it is generic to XML
  383. [07:19:05] <tantek> but yes, common to microformats methodology as well
  384. [07:26:16] <drewinthehead> hey factoryjoe, guys
  385. [07:26:40] <tantek> hey drew
  386. [07:27:14] <factoryjoe> btw: http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/08/16/linuxworld-2006-no-kids-allowed/
  387. [07:27:58] <tantek> hahaha
  388. [07:28:03] <drewinthehead> that sucks
  389. [07:28:24] * tantek snuck into 18 yr and up computer conferences when he was 13.
  390. [07:29:11] <drewinthehead> MacExpo in London welcomes kids ... our small person is excellent at collecting schwag
  391. [07:30:18] <tantek> that's what the Radio Flyer is for right?
  392. [07:32:23] <KevinMarks> I spent half the summer at computer exhibition centres in London when I was 12
  393. [07:32:42] <KevinMarks> until I got my own computer
  394. [07:34:47] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  395. [07:55:44] <drewinthehead> tantek, KevinMarks: just been looking at your "can your website be your API" slides, which seems to be an entry-level exploration of microformats. did you guys ever write anything more about this concept of your website being your API?
  396. [07:56:13] <tantek> Others have picked up the ball drew
  397. [07:56:31] <drewinthehead> it's a really great concept in terms of communicating the benefits, i think
  398. [07:56:32] <tantek> there are a few posts that say things like do microformats make feeds and web APIs obsolete
  399. [07:56:39] <drewinthehead> ok, i'll keep searching :)
  400. [07:56:46] <tantek> drew, you should totally feel free to run with it
  401. [07:56:56] <tantek> if you think you can use any of that approach to help people understand
  402. [07:56:58] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/wiki/rest has some stuff along that line
  403. [07:57:03] <KevinMarks> but yes, do build on it
  404. [07:57:09] <drewinthehead> i've been asked a couple of times to give some presentations, so i'm brainstorming
  405. [07:57:42] * brianoberkirch (n=brianobe@adsl-065-005-209-171.sip.msy.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  406. [07:57:48] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=8174 * 234qwe * (+19163) Specifications -
  407. [07:58:29] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=8175 * Tantek * (-19163) Reverted edit of 234qwe, changed back to last version by ChrisCasciano
  408. [07:58:35] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:234qwe" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  409. [07:59:25] <drewinthehead> i think there are lots of good real-world examples now of where API functionality is duplicated by microformatted content (flickr contacts, upcoming.org events, etc) that make nice demonstrations of the usefulness ... at least to audiences who totally grok APIs
  410. [07:59:40] <tantek> or, the other way around
  411. [07:59:47] <tantek> it is much easier often to just add a few microformats
  412. [08:00:00] <tantek> than to design, build, and support a whole parallel API infrastructure
  413. [08:00:06] <drewinthehead> exactly
  414. [08:00:16] <tantek> if microformats can get you 80% of the API you need, then why not start with that?
  415. [08:00:27] <drewinthehead> which i think is what the current examples where microformats have been retrofitted demonstrate
  416. [08:00:29] <tantek> and then only add APIs for the other stuff which your developers ask for?
  417. [08:00:43] <tantek> which you usually won't be able to predict until you first do the "obvious" 80%.
  418. [08:00:48] <drewinthehead> yes, that's where i'm going :)
  419. [08:04:05] <drewinthehead> awesome, well that's one strong idea
  420. [08:05:26] <drewinthehead> i'm working on a development of my fill-out-form-details-from-your-hcard experiments for BarCampLondon
  421. [08:06:07] <drewinthehead> trying to focus on *using* the data once it's there, as a way of encouraging people to put it there in the first place
  422. [08:06:45] <KevinMarks> excellent
  423. [08:08:01] <tantek> drew, that's precisely the right approach
  424. [08:08:10] <tantek> plus step one, you'll be able to leverage all the Y! Local goodness.
  425. [08:09:14] <drewinthehead> Y! Local isn't let an attractive example to UK audiences, unfortunately. I wish the UK developers and Y! would pull their fingers out. oh.. wait ;)
  426. [08:09:48] <drewinthehead> i think we're getting Local here soon :)
  427. [08:10:16] <tantek> sweeeeeeet
  428. [08:28:08] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) has joined #microformats
  429. [08:28:08] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  430. [08:29:13] <drewinthehead> mornin' Phae
  431. [08:29:16] <Phae> Drifters are not breakfast food.
  432. [08:29:19] <Phae> Morning.
  433. [08:29:56] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  434. [08:30:07] <drewinthehead> the soul group?
  435. [08:30:32] <Phae> The chocolate variety.
  436. [08:30:48] <drewinthehead> ah, ok ;)
  437. [08:31:37] <Phae> I ended up getting nothing done last night except grab the latest MFPG build
  438. [08:31:45] <Phae> I fell asleep at 7pm, woke up again at midnight :/
  439. [08:31:48] <tantek> MFPG?
  440. [08:32:01] <tantek> ?def MFPG
  441. [08:32:01] <jibot> Nobody has defined MFPG yet
  442. [08:32:32] <Phae> microformats playground
  443. [08:32:48] * Phae is making up acronyms.
  444. [08:32:53] <tantek> ?def MFPG is the microformats playground.
  445. [08:32:54] <jibot> MFPG is the microformats playground.
  446. [08:32:57] <Phae> :)
  447. [08:33:59] <drewinthehead> sometimes sleep is the most productive use of time
  448. [08:34:12] <drewinthehead> you just have to look at the slightly bigger picture :)
  449. [08:34:44] <Phae> I suppose. I only lay down for a quick rest, so I could get on with something productive.
  450. [08:34:47] <Phae> Oh well. :)
  451. [08:35:27] <drewinthehead> we were just talking about REST as it happens
  452. [08:35:33] <Phae> heh
  453. [08:36:22] <drewinthehead> is the MFPG anywhere visible, or is it all under wraps still?
  454. [08:36:49] <Phae> It's all wrapped up.
  455. [08:39:08] <drewinthehead> booo ;)
  456. [08:40:15] <Phae> heh
  457. [08:40:31] <Phae> I'll harrass Robert as soon as I tweak the main stylesheet to not look so broken
  458. [08:44:12] <drewinthehead> cool, as long as you guys don't think the effectiveness will be reduced by releasing too early, you should release as early as you can (if that makes any sense)
  459. [08:44:24] <Phae> aye
  460. [08:44:45] <Phae> I'll sort it out tonight.
  461. [09:05:18] <Phae> Gotta go. meetings :(
  462. [09:05:19] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) Quit ("Leaving")
  463. [09:07:20] <tantek> Gotta go. Sleep. :/
  464. [09:09:38] <drewinthehead> sleep well!
  465. [09:25:51] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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  467. [09:59:32] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@adsl-62-167-38-123.adslplus.ch) Quit ()
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  469. [10:37:13] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  470. [10:37:14] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  471. [10:56:44] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
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  473. [11:05:37] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
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  476. [11:18:08] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  477. [11:18:08] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  478. [11:18:23] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  479. [11:18:24] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  480. [11:18:32] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  481. [11:19:28] <McNulty> afternoon
  482. [11:22:18] <drewinthehead> afternoon McNulty
  483. [11:25:26] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  484. [11:25:26] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  485. [11:39:31] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  486. [11:42:11] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) Quit ()
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  488. [12:10:42] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  489. [12:10:42] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  490. [12:10:48] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable163.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  491. [12:10:48] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  492. [12:11:00] * trov (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
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  495. [12:30:34] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  496. [12:30:34] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  497. [12:31:39] <trovster> drewinthehead: Heard of a flash on a camera?
  498. [12:32:02] <drewinthehead> eh?
  499. [12:32:43] <trovster> The photos on your Flickr account
  500. [12:33:40] <drewinthehead> ah yeah. dark pub. you either go for under-exposed, or bright bright bright and piss everyone off
  501. [12:33:51] <drewinthehead> or get a nice DSLR with a fast lens
  502. [12:34:31] <drewinthehead> i don't mean fast. but, yeah, better than my little compact digital.
  503. [12:38:05] <trovster> drewinthehead: Fancy quickly looking through a presentation for me?
  504. [12:38:11] <drewinthehead> sure
  505. [12:39:41] <trovster> You get pm's?
  506. [12:41:26] <drewinthehead> i got one
  507. [12:41:28] <drewinthehead> url
  508. [12:57:41] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  509. [12:57:41] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  510. [13:04:01] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC92183B.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  511. [13:04:01] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  512. [13:04:01] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  513. [13:05:16] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) has joined #microformats
  514. [13:05:16] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  515. [13:06:06] <drewinthehead> good meetings?
  516. [13:08:25] <Phae> yawn
  517. [13:08:36] * McNulty had a 'meeting' in the pub
  518. [13:08:52] <drewinthehead> a meeting of beer and mouth
  519. [13:09:05] <McNulty> a meeting of burger and chips, too
  520. [13:10:37] <Phae> I was just at them to listen in
  521. [13:11:19] <Phae> We have a big project about to begin
  522. [13:11:29] <Phae> and they actually want double-A for once
  523. [13:11:34] <Phae> so I had to go and flag any issues I saw
  524. [13:12:14] * Phae mutters about .NET
  525. [13:12:55] <drewinthehead> i think projects should have real flags. ones you can pick up and wave in the middle of the office or in a meeting.
  526. [13:13:34] <Phae> yeah
  527. [13:13:40] <Phae> I hate that phrase "flag any concerns"
  528. [13:13:44] <Phae> but I use it anyway now
  529. [13:15:03] <qid> Phae: double-A? accessibility compliance?
  530. [13:15:13] * Phae nods.
  531. [13:15:24] <Phae> Its something that I do on my project anyway
  532. [13:15:33] <Phae> but we have the issue of out dated ASP.NET development here
  533. [13:15:58] <qid> yeah
  534. [13:16:20] <qid> I did some work with ASP.NET/C# fairly recently
  535. [13:16:36] * Phae nods
  536. [13:16:40] <qid> version 1.1 or something, not 2.0, so maybe they fixed a bunch of the problems in 2.0, but I doubt it
  537. [13:16:41] <Phae> It's actually C# on this project
  538. [13:17:04] <Phae> Wel,l tehy're finally going to roll out 2005, even though Ive been complaining about it for 6 months
  539. [13:17:09] <qid> .NET tries to pretend the web is an event-based desktop application
  540. [13:17:25] <qid> which is a really bad abstraction that leaks all over the place
  541. [13:17:51] <Phae> My concern is from the markup point of view, since it spits out html 4 transitional
  542. [13:17:54] <qid> and the result is you get HTML that looks like garbage
  543. [13:18:16] <Phae> anyway
  544. [13:18:22] <qid> actually I think it was always spitting out XHTML for me and I couldn't get it to use HTML
  545. [13:18:28] <Phae> so the developers over there *gestures to the dark side of the room* are going strict
  546. [13:18:32] <Phae> and I'm going to be watching that
  547. [13:21:18] <drewinthehead> they'll be strict, but bets are that Phae will be stricter.
  548. [13:21:23] * Phae grins.
  549. [13:21:43] <Phae> I've got to get their pages comlient too of course, so i'll be cracking my whip no doubt
  550. [13:22:21] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC92183B.ipt.aol.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  551. [13:22:33] <drewinthehead> on a different note to whips and stuff ... ;) ... does anyone know how the mf logo is licensed?
  552. [13:22:56] * drewinthehead has vague recollections of this being discussed
  553. [13:23:15] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
  554. [13:23:15] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
  555. [13:23:40] <Phae> I thought it all went on the wiki?
  556. [13:23:55] <Phae> Although, there was a long drawn out mailing list convo about it, and I dno't recall the resolution.
  557. [13:24:53] <qid> I thought it was creative commons
  558. [13:25:16] <Phae> Yeah, but which specific one?
  559. [13:25:24] <qid> but there was definitely something on the mailing list that would answer the question
  560. [13:25:24] <Phae> I'm pretty sure it's free use though
  561. [13:27:43] <Phae> http://labs.commerce.net/~rohit/5f-logo.html
  562. [13:28:25] <drewinthehead> thanks
  563. [13:28:46] <drewinthehead> hmm 404 ... does that work where you are?
  564. [13:29:05] * drewinthehead suspects an evil Y!-blocking plan ;)
  565. [13:29:20] <trovster> 404 here to
  566. [13:29:27] <Phae> http://microformats.org/wiki/buttons
  567. [13:29:31] <Phae> Last link on that page?
  568. [13:30:18] <trovster> http://labs.commerce.net/~rohit/%C2%B5f-logo.html
  569. [13:30:35] <trovster> But that's not the logo license.
  570. [13:31:03] <Phae> no, but it's the logo and free use
  571. [13:31:11] <Phae> I just posted it cuz it was the only ref I'd seen
  572. [13:31:12] <McNulty> http://labs.commerce.net/%7Erohit/%C2%B5f-logo.html works for me
  573. [13:32:05] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has left #microformats
  574. [13:35:34] <drewinthehead> thanks guys.
  575. [13:46:50] <Phae> If you find out drew, will you put it on the wiki or list? I'd quite like to use the logo.
  576. [13:49:17] <drewinthehead> yes, i shall indeed
  577. [13:56:24] <Phae> OT, but form highlighting. Should be unobtrusive javascript, eh?
  578. [13:56:46] <trovster> And serverside.
  579. [13:57:05] <Phae> http://kalsey.com/2006/07/highlighting_form_fields_with_unobtrusive_javascript/
  580. [13:58:16] <trovster> input:focus {} ?
  581. [13:58:59] <Phae> not in IE
  582. [13:59:03] <drewinthehead> isn't browser support for the focus pseudo-class poor, trovster?
  583. [13:59:14] <Phae> very
  584. [13:59:15] <Phae> brb though
  585. [13:59:57] <trovster> personally, I would only have one classes, for the focused element...
  586. [14:00:00] <drewinthehead> i wrote almost this exact script two days ago for clearing and re-populating default values onfocus and onblur
  587. [14:00:31] <drewinthehead> yes, it's trampling over the className a little
  588. [14:00:46] <drewinthehead> it should be adding and subtracting, not overwriting
  589. [14:01:09] <trovster> I might add that little functionality, but it shouldn't be as long as that, surely.
  590. [14:01:26] <trovster> this.className = 'highlightActiveField'; is bad too, as it can overwrite
  591. [14:03:06] <drewinthehead> there should be a tiny drop in library for dealing with classes
  592. [14:03:11] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  593. [14:03:11] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  594. [14:03:11] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  595. [14:03:26] <drewinthehead> getElementsByClassName(), addClass(), hasClass(), removeClass()
  596. [14:03:48] <trovster> Yes :D
  597. [14:03:57] <drewinthehead> it may exist
  598. [14:04:03] <drewinthehead> but i'd like that
  599. [14:07:06] <drewinthehead> maybe getElementsBySelector() too, although i've never used that
  600. [14:07:30] <drewinthehead> actually, no, that's out of scope
  601. [14:08:30] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1891 -- how about that?
  602. [14:11:23] <drewinthehead> table_array ?
  603. [14:12:07] <drewinthehead> but yes, that's more the sort of thing :)
  604. [14:12:07] <trovster> Yeh...?
  605. [14:12:22] <drewinthehead> var table_array = document.getElementsByTagName('form');
  606. [14:12:27] <Phae> right ok
  607. [14:12:31] <trovster> Yeh?
  608. [14:12:34] <Phae> what
  609. [14:12:44] <drewinthehead> thats a collection of form elements
  610. [14:12:49] <drewinthehead> not an array and not tables
  611. [14:13:08] <trovster> heh, I put in table for some reason when I did it first, oop
  612. [14:13:30] <trovster> sorted
  613. [14:14:11] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  614. [14:14:12] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  615. [14:14:17] <Phae> So, is that JS I linked to terrible? I'm just looking for a nice safe way to add visual clues to the location in a form
  616. [14:14:37] <drewinthehead> no, it's not at all terrible, Phae. we're being anal.
  617. [14:14:40] <trovster> Feel free to use what I pasted, you'll need a few other functions
  618. [14:14:46] <trovster> It's not good, though
  619. [14:14:55] <drewinthehead> it's ok, in isolation.
  620. [14:14:56] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  621. [14:15:07] <Phae> what's wrong with it?
  622. [14:15:10] * Phae is always keen to learn.
  623. [14:15:16] <drewinthehead> the issue is mainly if you have multiple classes on the elemnts
  624. [14:15:23] <trovster> Phae: read the comments
  625. [14:15:49] <Phae> If the textbox already has a class, your method overwrites it.
  626. [14:15:50] <Phae> ah
  627. [14:15:55] <trovster> And the overwriting events, which I use blur() for validation
  628. [14:16:00] <drewinthehead> class is a space-delimited list of values, as we know :) and this script does className='blah' which would overwrite everything else
  629. [14:16:08] <Phae> okay
  630. [14:16:08] <drewinthehead> right
  631. [14:16:09] <drewinthehead> :)
  632. [14:16:24] <trovster> Also, his doesn't do textarea {}
  633. [14:16:46] <trovster> Infact, only does type="text" and type="password" ...
  634. [14:17:06] <Phae> ok
  635. [14:17:22] <drewinthehead> it'd be better if it looked for a class name
  636. [14:17:24] <Phae> That'll probably be a real pain then, since the forms we work with are usually long and multiple types.
  637. [14:17:27] <Phae> yeah
  638. [14:17:31] <Phae> that would be better
  639. [14:17:35] <drewinthehead> so you just apply a class to anythign you want highlighted onfocus
  640. [14:17:53] <trovster> But surely you'll want every form element to do that?
  641. [14:17:59] <Phae> argh
  642. [14:18:01] <Phae> another meeting :<
  643. [14:18:01] <Phae> brb
  644. [14:18:38] <drewinthehead> not radio buttons, trovster
  645. [14:18:43] <drewinthehead> or submit buttons ..
  646. [14:18:45] <drewinthehead> or .. :)
  647. [14:18:59] <trovster> drewinthehead: Why not?
  648. [14:19:11] <trovster> getElementsByClassName(document,'&','fixmyfocus'); -- there you go ;) loop through that collection instead
  649. [14:20:13] <drewinthehead> what's the & ?
  650. [14:20:18] * pecus (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) Quit ()
  651. [14:21:30] <trovster> Ooops, supposed to be *
  652. [14:22:16] * pecus_ (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) has joined #microformats
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  655. [14:29:28] <trovster> I need to tweak my JS validation script a little more :(
  656. [14:29:33] * briansuda_ is now known as briansuda
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  659. [14:38:44] <drewinthehead> so a mini library for just dealing with className would be handy, if i can't find anything
  660. [14:38:52] <drewinthehead> shouldn't take long to assemble, either
  661. [14:39:10] <drewinthehead> most of the work is probably in minimizing effectively
  662. [14:41:36] <trovster> addClass(), hasClass(), removeClass() ?
  663. [14:42:46] <drewinthehead> yeah
  664. [14:43:20] <drewinthehead> or should they be addClassName() ... ?
  665. [14:43:55] <trovster> Have you need seen them?
  666. [14:44:30] <trovster> addRel() :)
  667. [14:45:10] <Phae> man
  668. [14:46:19] <drewinthehead> hasRel() would be good for mf stuff
  669. [14:46:28] <trovster> ;)
  670. [14:46:53] <trovster> I just copied the hasClass, addClas and changed to rel :D
  671. [14:47:02] * drewinthehead has a meeting now ... a vidconf no less
  672. [14:51:08] <Phae> paul should never be allowed holiday
  673. [14:51:12] <Phae> i have to go to too many meetings
  674. [14:52:19] <tantek> greetings
  675. [14:52:25] <tantek> the microformats logo is a "community mark"
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  682. [15:10:18] <mfbot> [[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8176 * Vmarks * (+91) Functional Requirements -
  683. [15:26:19] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  687. [15:33:56] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
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  705. [17:21:22] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.19-156.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  706. [17:21:22] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  707. [17:32:42] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
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  710. [17:54:35] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  711. [17:54:35] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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  714. [18:02:55] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  715. [18:02:55] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  716. [18:03:28] * Jonnay (n=jonny@d199-126-185-156.abhsia.telus.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  717. [18:03:50] <Phae> Scott
  718. [18:04:06] <sreynen> yes
  719. [18:04:13] <Phae> Ah, you are alive.
  720. [18:04:21] <sreynen> just barely
  721. [18:06:07] <Phae> I just pm'd you. I assume you're idented.
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  731. [19:05:10] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
  732. [19:08:53] * stracciatella (n=emmanuel@cm82-143.liwest.at) has joined #microformats
  733. [19:09:30] <stracciatella> Hi.
  734. [19:14:27] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  735. [19:14:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
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  737. [19:58:43] <stracciatella> Is there a specific reason that XMDP profile documents don't require (or allow) <head profile="http://gmpg.org/xmdp/">?
  738. [20:00:18] <briansuda> why would they need that? you only need the profile of the microformat you are using.
  739. [20:10:14] * emmanuel_ (n=emmanuel@cm82-143.liwest.at) has joined #microformats
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  746. [20:25:43] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  749. [20:30:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  750. [20:39:02] * whafro (n=alter@65.107.196.194.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #microformats
  751. [20:40:08] <whafro> hey guys, I'm giving a quick talk on microformats tonight ... I'm no expert on them, but this is just a brief primer... anyone available to take a quick glance at my online slides and see if anything is really insanely wrong or should be improved?
  752. [20:40:54] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  753. [20:40:54] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  754. [20:41:16] <whafro> http://www.jounce.net/presentations/refreshMicroformats/ if so
  755. [20:41:43] <tantek> whafro - add your talk to the events page! http://microformats.org/wiki/events
  756. [20:42:08] <whafro> will do
  757. [20:46:54] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8177 * JacksonWilkinson * (+133) Added event
  758. [20:47:48] <whafro> there we go
  759. [20:56:44] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
  760. [20:56:45] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
  761. [21:01:20] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8178 * JacksonWilkinson * (+0)
  762. [21:03:46] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  763. [21:18:48] <tantek> hey whafro, nice slide background :)
  764. [21:18:55] <tantek> s/MicroFormats/microformats
  765. [21:19:41] <tantek> hmm.... I have no idea WTF is microframework - haven't heard of it before
  766. [21:19:44] <tantek> URL?
  767. [21:19:58] <tantek> and what does it have to do with the standard RSS feed icon?
  768. [21:20:03] <tantek> (this is on slide 2)
  769. [21:20:32] <tantek> on slide 4,
  770. [21:20:35] <tantek> s/hRating/hReview
  771. [21:22:58] <whafro> I was being cute with titles... the framework will be talking about RDF and such...
  772. [21:23:06] <tantek> ah
  773. [21:23:10] <tantek> not very micro ;)
  774. [21:23:15] <whafro> indeed not ;)
  775. [21:23:18] <whafro> that's in my written notes
  776. [21:23:22] <tantek> heh
  777. [21:23:29] <tantek> overall the presentation looks great
  778. [21:23:39] <whafro> yeah... I think Eric Meyer is showing up
  779. [21:23:44] <whafro> so I can't suck
  780. [21:23:56] <tantek> if you want, you can create a whole page for it on the wiki, and encourage people to add themselves as attendees etc.
  781. [21:24:08] <tantek> e.g.
  782. [21:24:09] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  783. [21:24:10] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  784. [21:24:34] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-08-17-refresh-dc-microformats
  785. [21:25:08] <whafro> word, I may just do that...
  786. [21:25:11] <tantek> feel free to copy / start with the basic outline at: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-07-11-an-event-apart-microformats
  787. [21:25:13] <whafro> I'll tell them you asked ;-)
  788. [21:25:19] <tantek> and do the appropriate search/replace :)
  789. [21:25:42] <tantek> plus having a page for the event itself allows people to follow up
  790. [21:25:49] <tantek> and post additional questions of the presentation
  791. [21:25:54] <tantek> and links to photos etc.
  792. [21:26:06] <tantek> if you can, get someone in the audience to help edit the wiki page in real time
  793. [21:26:12] <tantek> and capture Q&A as it happens
  794. [21:26:20] <tantek> to the page itself
  795. [21:27:02] <whafro> we have the refresh forum that we usually use for that kinda thing, but we will have a guy doing photos
  796. [21:27:23] <tantek> the wiki is nice because it can present the overall edited/gardened aggregate of everything
  797. [21:27:32] <tantek> rather than having forum messages to scroll through etc.
  798. [21:27:39] <tantek> plus photos can be integrated right there inline
  799. [21:27:44] <tantek> at a minimum you can link to the forum as well
  800. [21:28:08] <whafro> righto
  801. [21:28:12] <whafro> good points
  802. [21:30:09] <whafro> so you use microformats lowercase as branding, or because you don't think it's a proper noun?
  803. [21:31:47] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8179 * Tantek * (+287) added wordcamp microformats session
  804. [21:32:09] <tantek> good questions whafro
  805. [21:32:20] <tantek> CamelCase is not very human friendly
  806. [21:32:23] <tantek> nor even search engine friendly
  807. [21:32:26] <tantek> so it is avoided
  808. [21:32:36] <tantek> (CamelCase is largely a geek thing)
  809. [21:32:40] <whafro> right
  810. [21:32:44] <whafro> how about the initial cap?
  811. [21:32:58] <tantek> lowercase because it is a bit of self-referential "micro"-ness
  812. [21:33:03] <tantek> and self-deprecation
  813. [21:33:06] <whafro> gotcha, so branding more than anything else
  814. [21:33:11] <tantek> yes
  815. [21:33:16] <tantek> emphasizes the micro
  816. [21:33:19] <whafro> sure
  817. [21:33:25] <tantek> and contrasts with the Uppercase Semantic Web
  818. [21:33:27] <tantek> ;)
  819. [21:33:41] <tantek> see "lowercase semantic web" for some history
  820. [21:33:53] <tantek> ok, lunch time!
  821. [21:34:19] <whafro> yeah, noticed that
  822. [21:34:21] <whafro> thanks, cheers!
  823. [21:38:29] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d36-106-215.home1.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  824. [21:38:30] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
  825. [21:42:23] <mfbot> [[events/2006-08-17-refresh-dc-microformats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-08-17-refresh-dc-microformats * JacksonWilkinson * (+927)
  826. [22:03:01] * valmont_ is now known as valmont
  827. [22:03:47] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit ()
  828. [22:07:05] <mfbot> [[events/2006-08-17-refresh-dc-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-08-17-refresh-dc-microformats&diff=0&oldid=8180 * Tantek * (-126) removed a bit of self-referential copy/paste foo
  829. [22:07:37] <tantek> and be sure to link to it from the /wiki/events page
  830. [22:14:45] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  831. [22:14:46] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  832. [22:22:24] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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  836. [22:38:03] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
  837. [22:55:09] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  838. [23:02:02] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8181 * Tantek * (+46) linked to specific event page
  839. [23:06:30] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
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  841. [23:09:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  842. [23:09:39] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  843. [23:15:33] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("rebooting")
  844. [23:20:09] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=8182 * Leip * (+208)
  845. [23:21:19] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
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  848. [23:33:32] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d36-106-215.home1.cgocable.net) Quit ()

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