IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-10-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:01:03] * danja (n=danja@host210-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host))
  2. [00:21:06] <mfbot> [[chat-strawman]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/chat-strawman * Ben Ward * (+10189) Create 'hChatLog' straw man proposal
  3. [00:21:18] <factoryjoe> BenWard++
  4. [00:22:03] <BenWard> OK, does anyone know why a Windows keyboard plugged into a MacBook Pro might intermittently spew duplicate/random characters into my text?
  5. [00:22:27] <BenWard> Other than it spiting me for writing a longish document.
  6. [00:23:14] <boneill> It's sicked that you'd abuse it in such a manor
  7. [00:23:17] <boneill> *manner
  8. [00:23:30] <boneill> arg nevermind the typos in that sentence...
  9. [00:23:33] <tantek> BenWard - please add your straw man to chat-brainstorming instead
  10. [00:23:49] <BenWard> tantek: I was going to link to it from there, with it being quite long?
  11. [00:23:56] <tantek> oh is it?
  12. [00:24:27] <tantek> nah, go ahead and put it inline
  13. [00:24:33] <BenWard> OK
  14. [00:24:37] <tantek> much better to be able to compare/contrast different brainstorms/proposals
  15. [00:24:46] <BenWard> Yeah, that's a fair point.
  16. [00:24:50] <tantek> I'd say try to always start with things inline
  17. [00:25:00] <tantek> and then only move to separate pages when painfully necessary to do so
  18. [00:25:10] <BenWard> OK
  19. [00:25:11] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  20. [00:25:31] <tantek> with the exception of when we already have taxonomic patterns for new page creation such as *-examples, *-formats, *-brainstorming, *-issues, *-feedback, *-faq
  21. [00:25:37] <tantek> thanks!
  22. [00:27:42] <mfbot> [[chat-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9874 * Ben Ward * (+10206) Example playground - Added strawman
  23. [00:28:54] <BenWard> Is it possible for me to remove the -strawman page? Or can only wiki admins do that?
  24. [00:29:53] <tantek> do you see a "delete" link in the tabs at the top of the page?
  25. [00:30:20] <BenWard> Nope.
  26. [00:34:22] <tantek> ok, must be admin only then
  27. [00:34:39] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "chat-strawman": contents moved to [[chat-brainstorming]]
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  29. [00:37:55] <BenWard> Thanks tantek
  30. [00:38:56] <tantek> np - thanks for your brainstorming
  31. [00:39:46] <boneill> we were told at uni today not to call it brainstorming anymore
  32. [00:40:01] <tantek> why, some sort of newspeak?
  33. [00:40:11] <boneill> apparently that's offensive to dyslexic people
  34. [00:40:16] <BenWard> I heard that once too
  35. [00:40:27] <boneill> politically correctness takes another victim
  36. [00:40:33] <tantek> free speech > offensensitivity
  37. [00:41:08] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (Connection timed out)
  38. [00:41:26] <BenWard> Political Correctness is losing its touch. It gets in the newspapers and tells us we can't say things anymore, but no-one is listening. I'm pretty sure _more_ people say 'nitty gritty' now than before someone tried to take it away.
  39. [00:42:20] <factoryjoe> if not brainstorming than what?
  40. [00:42:24] <factoryjoe> brainjams?
  41. [00:42:25] <factoryjoe> ;)
  42. [00:42:57] <BenWard> factoryjoe: mmmBrainjam.
  43. [00:43:10] <BenWard> Makes me hungry for toast, that'll never do.
  44. [00:43:50] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ()
  45. [00:48:54] <BenWard> Well, I shall take my jam on toast hunger and save it for breakfast. I'll have a crack at cleaning up that brainstorm from typos and the like in the morning. 'night all.
  46. [00:49:18] <factoryjoe> night
  47. [00:49:21] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  48. [00:49:30] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) Quit ()
  49. [00:50:49] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
  50. [00:56:00] <mfbot> [[icons]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=icons&diff=0&oldid=9875 * Chris Messina * (+2098) added web icons
  51. [00:56:33] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("Some Kind of Raid Boss")
  52. [01:00:33] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  54. [01:13:29] <sreynen> this was on del.icio.us/popular : http://www.whymicroformats.com/articles/2006/10/04/introduction-to-microformats
  55. [01:26:50] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  56. [01:26:51] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  57. [01:26:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  69. [03:44:37] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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  71. [04:30:21] <Frederic> Hello
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  75. [05:10:47] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  76. [05:18:31] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("back soon, no doubt")
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  82. [06:17:37] <jibot> trel1023 is Terrell Russell of http://claimID.com and http://weblog.terrellrussell.com
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  86. [06:40:37] <jibot> bear is located near Philadelphia, PA and the build/release grunt for OSAF and an apprentice python hacker
  87. [06:41:38] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
  88. [06:41:38] <jibot> bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  89. [06:43:03] <bewest> tantek: on http://microformats.org/wiki/why-are-content-standards-hard you say "note: it was an *accident* that HTML was easy to learn for non-technical authors, designers, artists etc.: "
  90. [06:43:18] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  91. [06:43:27] <bewest> I'm not sure HTML was easy to learn, considering we are still combating abuses such as using tables for layout
  92. [06:43:48] <bewest> and new people typically use tools to generate bad html because it is so hard to learn
  93. [06:45:30] <Frederic> s/it's so hard to learn/they re too lazy to think about learning/g
  94. [06:45:37] <KevinMarks> no, they make bad html because it is forgiving
  95. [06:45:43] <KevinMarks> which is a good thing
  96. [06:45:43] <Frederic> HTML is just text formating you know
  97. [06:46:50] <bewest> many people new to html have a hard time learning css... especially when they know tables will make it /look/ like they want
  98. [06:47:05] <bewest> that's not a laziness issue, it's satisificing at work
  99. [06:49:21] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
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  102. [07:25:55] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  103. [07:29:30] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-68fa670ad74ef70e) has joined #microformats
  104. [07:29:30] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  110. [07:54:20] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  111. [07:56:12] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  112. [07:56:12] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  113. [07:59:51] <McNulty> morning
  114. [08:00:17] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  115. [08:00:17] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  116. [08:02:11] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  118. [08:04:39] <tantek> bewest, HTML was easy to learn in comparison to anything else comparable simply evident by the raw numbers of people that did anything with it.
  119. [08:05:08] <tantek> that aspect was an *accident* as it was not an explicit design objective of the creator
  120. [08:05:09] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  121. [08:06:33] <McNulty> tantek - the fact user-agents have traditionally been very lenient about markup probably helped immensely.
  122. [08:07:23] <tantek> indeed that is likely
  123. [08:10:19] <factoryjoe> it also helped that html only helped markup initially very simple data
  124. [08:10:38] <factoryjoe> literally building blocks like paragraphs and headings
  125. [08:10:48] <factoryjoe> i remember when i first saw html
  126. [08:10:54] <factoryjoe> (I think)
  127. [08:11:10] <factoryjoe> there was some sense to it
  128. [08:11:17] <factoryjoe> RDF OTOH...
  129. [08:11:21] <factoryjoe> i read about in a book
  130. [08:11:29] <factoryjoe> and i couldn't make any sense of it
  131. [08:11:47] <factoryjoe> my first experience w/ html
  132. [08:11:48] <factoryjoe> actually
  133. [08:11:52] <factoryjoe> was in 7th grade
  134. [08:12:15] <McNulty> 7th grade?!
  135. [08:12:15] <factoryjoe> when the class nerd turned in his homework assignment printed out from a web browser -- from HTML that he'd written to format the tables
  136. [08:12:21] <factoryjoe> i think so
  137. [08:12:31] <McNulty> I hate young people
  138. [08:12:36] <factoryjoe> ;)
  139. [08:12:41] <factoryjoe> b 1981
  140. [08:12:45] <McNulty> that's like 13, right?
  141. [08:12:52] <factoryjoe> it would be
  142. [08:13:15] <McNulty> I didn't encounter HTML until about '96
  143. [08:13:18] <McNulty> when I was... 18
  144. [08:13:38] <factoryjoe> well, that's not that big a difference
  145. [08:14:03] <factoryjoe> i actually had a blog before i knew i did
  146. [08:14:33] * bengee wonders which web browser factoryjoe used in 1981
  147. [08:14:39] <factoryjoe> http://web.archive.org/web/20010404233502/http://www.factorycity.net/
  148. [08:14:43] <factoryjoe> heh
  149. [08:14:56] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) has joined #microformats
  150. [08:15:25] <factoryjoe> all my beautiful html table layouts...
  151. [08:15:28] <factoryjoe> from back in the day
  152. [08:15:49] <factoryjoe> wow
  153. [08:15:50] <factoryjoe> 1998
  154. [08:15:51] <factoryjoe> http://web.archive.org/web/19981212032517/http://www.sandstormpublishing.com/
  155. [08:16:54] <factoryjoe> too bad all the images are gone
  156. [08:17:23] <McNulty> If only you'd used @alt...
  157. [08:17:34] <factoryjoe> heh
  158. [08:17:39] * blueNine (n=tigger@host213-123-130-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #microformats
  159. [08:22:25] <factoryjoe> did y'all see the mf icons?
  160. [08:23:02] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-f0790302f22f82dd) has joined #microformats
  161. [08:23:02] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  162. [08:23:03] <factoryjoe> http://factorycity.net/projects/microformats%2Dicons/
  163. [08:23:44] <mfbot> [[icons]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=icons&diff=0&oldid=9876 * Chris Messina * (+57)
  164. [08:23:46] <McNulty> What would the 'CV' button do?
  165. [08:23:52] <factoryjoe> hresume
  166. [08:23:53] <McNulty> What's the action that occurs when you click it, I mean
  167. [08:23:57] <factoryjoe> ah
  168. [08:23:57] <factoryjoe> well
  169. [08:24:04] <factoryjoe> you'd subscribe to someone's resume
  170. [08:24:19] <McNulty> the h(Atom/Card/Calendar) ones all have obvious purposes
  171. [08:24:25] <factoryjoe> like you're supposed to do w/ hcard
  172. [08:24:26] <drewinthehead> in your resume subscription program :)
  173. [08:24:29] <factoryjoe> right
  174. [08:24:34] <factoryjoe> like emurse or linkedin
  175. [08:24:38] <McNulty> oh yes I forgot about my resume reader....
  176. [08:24:39] <McNulty> ;-:
  177. [08:24:44] <factoryjoe> (I've been working on them... they're getting there!)
  178. [08:24:48] <factoryjoe> but yes
  179. [08:24:56] <factoryjoe> so you'd publish hresume on your website
  180. [08:25:13] <factoryjoe> and you'd tell them to grab your hresume from your website -- to "subscribe" to it
  181. [08:25:22] <factoryjoe> so that when you make changes, it's always up to date
  182. [08:25:26] <factoryjoe> and i'm a job seeker
  183. [08:25:32] <McNulty> sure
  184. [08:25:33] <factoryjoe> i look at all your rel-me links
  185. [08:25:36] <factoryjoe> and find the hresume
  186. [08:25:44] <factoryjoe> and put it in my hresume-reader basket
  187. [08:25:53] <McNulty> you're an employer, you mean
  188. [08:25:55] <factoryjoe> and when you come in for your interview i had up-to-date info
  189. [08:26:01] <factoryjoe> err
  190. [08:26:02] <factoryjoe> yes
  191. [08:26:04] <factoryjoe> that's it
  192. [08:38:15] <McNulty> Does anyone have a list of attributes that can take URLs?
  193. [08:38:38] <McNulty> I'm writing a web service thingy and need to resolve the URLs in some HTML to be absolute
  194. [08:39:32] <McNulty> @href, @src ... ?
  195. [08:40:19] <McNulty> ah, @action
  196. [08:42:05] <McNulty> never mind, found it from the HTML spec
  197. [08:42:29] <davecardwell> @data?
  198. [08:42:37] <davecardwell> heh, too slow
  199. [08:42:41] <McNulty> there seem to be Looooads
  200. [08:42:47] <davecardwell> URL?
  201. [08:42:56] <davecardwell> (to the spec)
  202. [08:43:02] <McNulty> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/attributes.html (the ones with Type=%URI)
  203. [08:43:06] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  204. [08:43:56] <davecardwell> ta
  205. [08:44:28] <davecardwell> that's a few more than I was expecting
  206. [08:44:40] <McNulty> @action, @background, @cite, @classid, @codebase, @data, @href, @longdesc, @profile, @src, @usemap
  207. [08:45:19] <McNulty> I'm not 100% sure which is easiest, Xpathing all of those or just finding http(s)://es
  208. [08:45:34] <davecardwell> @valuetype in a param might be a URI if @valuetype is set to "ref"
  209. [08:45:39] <davecardwell> that might be a bit of a stretch though :p
  210. [08:46:05] <davecardwell> uh, that should be @value in a <param> might be a URI if @valuetype is set to "ref"
  211. [08:46:10] <mfbot> [[rel-home-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-home-issues&diff=0&oldid=9877 * Phae * (+38) Rel-Home of Rel-Index -
  212. [08:46:31] <McNulty> hmmm
  213. [08:46:42] <McNulty> true, but let's assume that's out of scope for uF parsing ;-)
  214. [08:46:47] <davecardwell> if they're relative paths you're converting to absolute, they wouldn't have a protocol
  215. [08:47:05] <McNulty> d'oh, true
  216. [08:47:14] <McNulty> I'm basically thinking of writing an include-pattern proxy
  217. [08:47:16] <davecardwell> and might not begin with a / either
  218. [08:47:25] <davecardwell> hrm
  219. [08:47:33] <McNulty> that can adopt slightly different include-path methods
  220. [08:47:50] <McNulty> so that you can use it with services that haven't implemented it yet
  221. [08:48:03] <McNulty> And hopefully it'd spark a bit of debate about which include strategy to use
  222. [08:48:09] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  223. [08:52:50] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  224. [08:58:52] <mfbot> [[chat-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9878 * Ben Ward * (-200) hChatLog Strawman Proposal - – Typo corrections.
  225. [08:59:24] * BenWard (n=BenWard@host86-143-104-226.range86-143.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  226. [08:59:24] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk (+0000/+0100 GMT)
  227. [09:13:44] <kapowaz> well, it's friday
  228. [09:13:59] <kapowaz> and so I give to you: www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com
  229. [09:16:13] * shigeta_ (n=shigeta@124x32x114x226.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  230. [09:20:15] <drewinthehead> cats that look like data would be better :D
  231. [09:20:48] <KevinMarks> einsteins cat?
  232. [09:22:14] <drewinthehead> that was pretty quick, KevinMarks :)
  233. [09:22:28] <drewinthehead> you're more awake than I am, clearly
  234. [09:25:12] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host))
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  236. [09:34:32] <kapowaz> by data do you mean noughts and ones?
  237. [09:34:38] <kapowaz> or the android in star trek?
  238. [09:36:18] <kapowaz> oh, is this a reference to this? http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/eincat.html
  239. [09:42:17] <KevinMarks> indeed
  240. [09:52:31] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-f0790302f22f82dd) Quit ()
  241. [09:57:04] * pecus (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) has joined #microformats
  242. [10:00:24] <kapowaz> very good
  243. [10:04:54] * charlie_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  244. [10:13:42] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  245. [10:13:42] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  246. [10:14:50] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  247. [10:41:52] <kapowaz> how annoying.
  248. [10:42:18] <kapowaz> if you use -moz-border-radius on a UL, and a background on the contained LIs, the background of the LI obscures the rounded corners of the UL
  249. [10:42:33] <kapowaz> and I thought the slapdash aliased rendering was bad enough as it was...
  250. [10:43:04] <McNulty> I guess that's why it's still a moz-* ;-)
  251. [10:45:13] <kapowaz> I imagine so.
  252. [10:45:30] <kapowaz> I can't figure out why they'd use a non-antialiased method anyway
  253. [10:46:06] <kapowaz> surely creating anti-aliased rounded edges is trivially easy in any modern 2D graphics API
  254. [10:46:20] <McNulty> I dunno how mozilla renders stuff.
  255. [10:47:23] <kapowaz> well neither do I. I am making uninformed guesses that are quite possibly spectacularly wrong.
  256. [10:47:36] <kapowaz> gripe #2 for the morning: list-style-image
  257. [10:47:48] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has left #microformats
  258. [10:47:53] <kapowaz> :|
  259. [10:47:57] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  260. [10:48:11] <kapowaz> you had me thinking my griping was excessive there.
  261. [10:48:22] <McNulty> well it is a little ;-)
  262. [10:48:31] * McNulty thinks back to the last rant, about cleartype :-)
  263. [10:48:57] <McNulty> What's wrong with list-style-image?
  264. [10:50:44] <kapowaz> if the image is bigger (taller) than the height of the LI, then the text in the LI flows to the bottom
  265. [10:50:57] <kapowaz> I can't think of a reason why you'd ever want that by default
  266. [10:51:05] <kapowaz> either you'd want the text to align to the top, or you'd want it centred
  267. [10:51:05] <McNulty> sorry, I don't get what you mean.
  268. [10:51:11] <kapowaz> I'll show
  269. [10:51:20] <McNulty> I'd *expect* it to clip
  270. [10:51:26] <McNulty> the image.
  271. [10:52:43] <kapowaz> it doesn't do that either
  272. [10:53:01] <kapowaz> maybe you can specify it with attributes I don't know of
  273. [10:55:03] <kapowaz> http://www.kapowaz.net/teamphone/damnyouli.html
  274. [10:55:32] <McNulty> huh, it's changed the height of the LI?!
  275. [10:55:37] <kapowaz> indeed!
  276. [10:55:44] <kapowaz> what cockwittery is this?
  277. [10:55:47] <McNulty> ah it's not fixed-height
  278. [10:55:58] <McNulty> intersting though
  279. [10:56:11] <McNulty> you can likely work around it using background image instead
  280. [10:56:20] <kapowaz> not in my case
  281. [10:56:29] <McNulty> oh?
  282. [10:56:39] <kapowaz> that would require the background colour I have extend to full width of the UL
  283. [10:56:50] <kapowaz> and I want the UL colour to show through behind the list-style-image
  284. [10:57:47] <kapowaz> reload and you'll see
  285. [10:59:01] <McNulty> Ah you want it to stand outside the LI
  286. [10:59:09] <kapowaz> yes
  287. [10:59:14] <McNulty> hm
  288. [10:59:17] <kapowaz> I'm baffled by this behaviour.
  289. [10:59:26] <kapowaz> I cannot for the life of me think why that would be a desirable effect
  290. [10:59:27] <McNulty> I really dont' see why it's reflowing like that
  291. [10:59:31] <kapowaz> me either
  292. [10:59:39] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-96b720072eba3e13) has joined #microformats
  293. [10:59:39] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  294. [10:59:39] <kapowaz> I don't suppose you're on a Mac are you?
  295. [10:59:50] <kapowaz> I'll test it in Opera
  296. [11:00:11] <kapowaz> does the same
  297. [11:00:35] <kapowaz> although interestingly, it appears the image is more right-aligned than the Firefox one
  298. [11:00:57] <kapowaz> IE7 does something entirely different
  299. [11:01:02] <kapowaz> although equally baffling
  300. [11:01:16] <julianstahnke> maybe you could just use a padding and a background image that contains the check mark as well as the solid background?
  301. [11:01:29] <kapowaz> possibly, but that's really quite hacky
  302. [11:01:53] <kapowaz> I should point out that this test has a bit of a caveat; the tickmark has a lot of padding in the image itself
  303. [11:02:10] <kapowaz> but the point still stands that the text oughtn't reflow like that
  304. [11:02:20] <kapowaz> I'm curious to hear what Safari does
  305. [11:02:41] <julianstahnke> expandes the li
  306. [11:03:25] <julianstahnke> but I think it's the right behaviour
  307. [11:03:28] <julianstahnke> it's an image
  308. [11:03:33] <julianstahnke> not a background image
  309. [11:03:45] <boneill> indeed
  310. [11:03:49] <kapowaz> well, it's neither
  311. [11:03:52] <kapowaz> it's a list-image
  312. [11:03:57] <boneill> a more common way of doing that is to make it the background image
  313. [11:04:04] <kapowaz> aye, and why is that more common?
  314. [11:04:17] <kapowaz> perhaps because the specified way of doing it is problematic?
  315. [11:04:21] <boneill> because if it's the "bullet point" the li will be made tall enough so the "bullet point" is totally visible
  316. [11:04:29] <kapowaz> that itself is logical
  317. [11:04:37] <kapowaz> but I'd argue the text shouldn't reflow that way
  318. [11:04:50] <kapowaz> either that or the visibility of the image should be tied to the height of the LI
  319. [11:05:50] <kapowaz> I'm thinking of all the other places where an image is used instead of a bullet in lists, things like file listings, icons next to menu items etc.
  320. [11:06:05] <kapowaz> nowhere would you want the text to reflow as if it was aligned to the bottom of the image
  321. [11:06:13] <julianstahnke> kapowaz: can you set text-align?
  322. [11:06:16] <julianstahnke> maybe it works
  323. [11:06:21] * kapowaz gives that a go
  324. [11:06:49] <kapowaz> well hang on, that's only for horizontal alignment isn't it?
  325. [11:07:07] <kapowaz> you mean vertical-align, right?
  326. [11:07:08] <julianstahnke> ah, vertical-align
  327. [11:07:14] <kapowaz> and no, that doesn't do anything
  328. [11:07:41] <kapowaz> some things in CSS just don't do what they say on the tin
  329. [11:08:00] <kapowaz> oh wait!
  330. [11:08:00] <julianstahnke> yeah, I think vertical-align only works on table cells
  331. [11:08:02] <kapowaz> it works in IE7!
  332. [11:08:12] <kapowaz> *** IT WORKS IN IE7 BUT NOT FIREFOX 2 OR OPERA 9! ***
  333. [11:08:16] * kapowaz faints
  334. [11:08:17] <julianstahnke> but IE doesn't support display: table-cell on anything
  335. [11:09:13] <julianstahnke> if it works in IE but not in the other browsers then it certainly must be a bug ;)
  336. [11:09:25] <kapowaz> in the other browsers...?
  337. [11:09:26] <kapowaz> ;)
  338. [11:09:45] <kapowaz> in this case, IE is behaving as I'd expect the specified attribute to
  339. [11:09:59] <kapowaz> I have a containing element (an LI) and within it, another element (an A)
  340. [11:10:11] <kapowaz> and the LI has vertical-align:top; and the A is flush to the top of the LI
  341. [11:10:35] <kapowaz> that's behaving as expected. the question is whether or not LIs are allowed to have vertical alignment specified
  342. [11:10:43] <kapowaz> I can't think why they'd not
  343. [11:11:04] <kapowaz> isn't the rule of thumb that if they're in a display mode of block then they should be allowed, but not if they're inline?
  344. [11:13:41] <julianstahnke> lis have display: list-item I think
  345. [11:14:00] <kapowaz> oh yes, of course
  346. [11:14:09] <kapowaz> actually I am inclined to think it is a bug after all
  347. [11:14:25] <kapowaz> vertical-align:top; and vertical-align:middle; produce the same result in IE7
  348. [11:14:30] <julianstahnke> it's at the bottom in safari as well
  349. [11:14:34] <julianstahnke> and I know why
  350. [11:14:50] <julianstahnke> if you have text and image, then the image normally is aligned to the baseline of the text
  351. [11:14:58] <julianstahnke> and that's what's happening here
  352. [11:23:55] <kapowaz> it is hideously inappropriate though
  353. [11:24:04] <kapowaz> why would anyone ever want that?
  354. [11:24:29] * kapowaz shakes a fist at the W3C
  355. [11:24:36] <julianstahnke> as if that would be of any concern to them ;)
  356. [11:24:40] <kapowaz> quite.
  357. [11:24:52] <julianstahnke> (what people want, not that you're shaking your fist)
  358. [11:24:56] <kapowaz> aye.
  359. [11:25:10] <kapowaz> so... time to ask WHAT-WG to propose a new CSS attribute
  360. [11:25:18] <kapowaz> list-bullet-image or something
  361. [11:25:22] <kapowaz> that behaves how a bullet would
  362. [11:25:39] <kapowaz> or maybe list-image-align
  363. [11:27:27] <julianstahnke> nah, that's overkill
  364. [11:27:44] <kapowaz> I think the CSS3 LI::marker pseudo-selector might do what I want
  365. [11:27:53] <kapowaz> since you can specify margins etc. in there
  366. [11:27:58] <kapowaz> but what supports it, I wonder?
  367. [11:28:02] <julianstahnke> just use a background image, multiple background images, generated content or what you just said :)
  368. [11:28:22] <kapowaz> well for now obviously I'll have to consider one of those
  369. [11:28:25] <julianstahnke> ha, well, your newly invented spec isn't even a draft yet ;)
  370. [11:29:02] <kapowaz> but ideologically it seems pisspoor that the intended purpose of list-style-image is handicapped by this nonsensical adherence to traditional image flow
  371. [11:29:09] * kapowaz starts painting a banner
  372. [11:39:15] <kapowaz> okay, take another look at http://www.kapowaz.net/teamphone/damnyouli.html
  373. [11:39:27] <kapowaz> tell me that's not insane
  374. [11:39:55] <kapowaz> so long as the image is less tall than the line-height, it will be positioned logically, i.e. at the centre of the first line
  375. [11:40:21] <julianstahnke> no
  376. [11:40:33] <julianstahnke> in safari, it's always at the bottom
  377. [11:41:03] <julianstahnke> just try li img { vertical-align: top } or li { vertical-align: top } and see what happens
  378. [11:41:36] <kapowaz> already tried that, didn't make a difference
  379. [11:41:46] <kapowaz> I don't suppose I could see a screenshot of what it looks like in Safari?
  380. [11:42:18] <kapowaz> the whole point about it reflowing to accomodate the image is asinine given that it allows the image to flow off the left edge of the screen (in FF2 at least)
  381. [11:43:04] <julianstahnke> http://static.last.fm/depth/screenshot.png
  382. [11:43:39] <kapowaz> hmm, that's essentially the same as I get in Firefox
  383. [11:44:22] <kapowaz> there is no way I can bodge this to work though, IE7 is just too damned weird
  384. [11:44:37] <julianstahnke> use a background image
  385. [11:44:41] <kapowaz> yes :)
  386. [11:44:42] <kapowaz> I shall
  387. [11:45:44] <kapowaz> anyway, now I shall go to lunch
  388. [11:46:26] <julianstahnke> bon appetit
  389. [12:36:11] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-96b720072eba3e13) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  390. [12:37:38] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable128.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  391. [12:37:38] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  392. [12:41:37] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  393. [12:41:37] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  394. [13:12:21] * bergie (n=bergie@net-61.nrpn.net) Quit ()
  395. [13:20:57] * kensanata (n=alex@pdpc/supporter/active/kensanata) has joined #microformats
  396. [13:20:57] <jibot> kensanata is blogging at http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
  397. [13:26:13] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  398. [13:26:14] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  399. [13:29:44] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit ()
  400. [13:31:42] * Frederic (n=neuro@pdpc/supporter/active/neuro) Quit ("C'est pas que j'veux pas vous voir hein, c'est juste que j'ai pas envie... et du travail")
  401. [13:33:10] * SignpostMarv (i=user@88-111-232-237.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
  402. [13:33:38] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-a8a5379a8e40060c) has joined #microformats
  403. [13:33:38] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  404. [13:39:08] <kapowaz> this might seem pedantic, but I'm wondering why the hReview spec (http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview) outlines 'Semantic XHTML Design Principles'
  405. [13:39:23] <kapowaz> isn't that a bit beyond the scope of such a spec?
  406. [13:39:53] * kapowaz just read the phrase "XHTML is built on XML" and wondered who would be reading that document who didn't already know that...
  407. [13:40:19] * SignpostMarv thinks the term is "redundant", not "out of scope"
  408. [13:40:49] <SignpostMarv> it seems XHTML design principles is a general microformats thing
  409. [13:41:29] * divoxx (n=rodrigo@201.37.108.13) has joined #microformats
  410. [13:41:48] <kapowaz> well, whichever. I mean, it's giving you technical information which extends past the purpose of the document.
  411. [13:42:10] <kapowaz> would it make sense then to simply refer to another wiki entry on XHTML design principles in each spec?
  412. [13:42:38] * SignpostMarv searches the wiki for the phrase in question
  413. [13:42:57] <kapowaz> http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-xhtml-design-principles
  414. [13:43:15] <SignpostMarv> there's a similar section in xfolk
  415. [13:43:25] <kapowaz> it appears to use the exact same text.
  416. [13:43:37] <kapowaz> so maybe just nixing that section and saying 'read about it here' would make sense?
  417. [13:44:06] <SignpostMarv> brb, checking something relevant
  418. [13:45:21] * divoxx (n=rodrigo@201.37.108.13) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  419. [13:45:28] <SignpostMarv> from the wikipedia practice in this instance: {{main|semantic-xhtml-design-principles}}
  420. [13:45:34] <SignpostMarv> followed by the first paragraph
  421. [13:45:52] * divoxx (n=rodrigo@201.37.108.13) has joined #microformats
  422. [13:45:52] <SignpostMarv> XHTML is built on XML, and thus XHTML..... blah blah etc etc
  423. [13:47:02] * BenWard (n=BenWard@host86-143-104-226.range86-143.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  424. [13:47:30] <kapowaz> I don't follow, is that your suggested alteration?
  425. [13:47:36] <SignpostMarv> assuming that template is on the microformats wiki, or can be added there, then yes
  426. [13:49:38] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  427. [13:49:38] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  428. [13:49:42] <SignpostMarv> hell, you could template up that blurb into a single article, so it's just a case of adding in {{semantic-xhtml-design-blurb}} so the data isn't duplicated
  429. [13:49:59] * kapowaz isn't quite so familiar with wikipedia syntax as yourself, it appears ;)
  430. [13:50:13] * kapowaz just likes to cause a fuss and then pretend he doesn't know how to fix it himself, y'see :)
  431. [13:50:31] <kapowaz> anyway a more pressing issue has my attention right now... where can I get the microformats logo?
  432. [13:50:44] <kapowaz> I don't see it on the wiki, and it isn't obviously available on microformats.org
  433. [13:51:11] <boneill> kapowaz: http://microformats.org/wiki/spread-microformats
  434. [13:51:21] <boneill> SVG and PNG on there
  435. [13:51:26] <kapowaz> cool
  436. [13:51:53] <kapowaz> I don't know why, but that page is the 17th search result when I search for 'logo' on the wiki
  437. [13:52:25] <SignpostMarv> bad SEO :-D
  438. [13:52:27] <boneill> yeah loads of pages have "logo" in them
  439. [13:52:47] <kapowaz> I'll create a redirect
  440. [13:52:55] <boneill> I just remembered someone mailing uf-discuss with one and asking if they could put it up
  441. [13:53:41] <mfbot> [[logo]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/logo * Kapowaz * (+33)
  442. [13:53:58] <kapowaz> well, there you go.
  443. [13:54:17] <kapowaz> hmm, doesn't quite do what I intended... it's preserving the URL
  444. [13:57:01] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) has joined #microformats
  445. [13:57:01] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  446. [13:57:01] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  447. [14:00:42] <kapowaz> would anybody be interested in EPS and Photoshop versions of the microformats logo?
  448. [14:00:54] * kapowaz can't be the only one who can't edit SVG directly
  449. [14:01:07] <SignpostMarv> GIMP supports SVG
  450. [14:01:15] * kapowaz doesn't use GIMP, however :)
  451. [14:01:37] <SignpostMarv> although it probably would be good to post EPS versions to make it easier for peeps
  452. [14:03:21] <kapowaz> can GIMP export to Photoshop foramt?
  453. [14:03:23] <kapowaz> er, format
  454. [14:03:31] * SignpostMarv goes and checks
  455. [14:03:31] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-a8a5379a8e40060c) Quit ()
  456. [14:03:39] * kapowaz just downloaded a program which allegedly can export SVG as PSD and it horribly mashed the logo
  457. [14:05:03] * kapowaz sighs at the google results for "photoshop svg importer"
  458. [14:05:18] <kapowaz> polluted with shareware toss that doesn't do anything of the sort, but has all terms on the page
  459. [14:05:21] <SignpostMarv> hmm
  460. [14:05:30] <SignpostMarv> Photoshop can read EPS files right ?
  461. [14:05:37] <kapowaz> yes but not in editable form
  462. [14:05:39] <SignpostMarv> ah
  463. [14:05:43] <kapowaz> well
  464. [14:06:06] <kapowaz> no wait, I'm thinking of Photoshop PDF there, yes, it can read EPS but it rasterises it immediately
  465. [14:06:07] * SignpostMarv has finally managed to get GIMP to boot <<<< GIMP is REALLY slow on windows
  466. [14:06:07] <boneill> imports them as raster doesn't it?
  467. [14:06:14] <kapowaz> boneill: yup
  468. [14:06:26] <kapowaz> Photoshop PDF would be the ideal format for distribution IMHO
  469. [14:07:12] <SignpostMarv> what is the earliest version of photo shop to support PDF importing/editing ?
  470. [14:07:20] <kapowaz> a good question
  471. [14:07:32] <kapowaz> and which version of PDF, also
  472. [14:07:42] * kapowaz has been using CS2 for some time
  473. [14:07:56] <kapowaz> so it may not be well supported in earlier versions
  474. [14:07:58] * SignpostMarv uses archaic software for image editing- Ulead Photo Impact 6
  475. [14:08:02] <kapowaz> nice :)
  476. [14:08:51] * kapowaz gives up on google
  477. [14:09:06] <kapowaz> those search results were polluted with pure SEO evil
  478. [14:09:21] <kapowaz> yeah, I really want to be redirected to a PC hardware reseller's homepage
  479. [14:09:22] * SignpostMarv downloads the SVG logo
  480. [14:10:38] <kapowaz> I've got the PNG here
  481. [14:10:47] <kapowaz> the weird thing is, the logo being used on the wiki isn't the same as the PNG
  482. [14:10:54] <kapowaz> those white borders are being cut out
  483. [14:10:56] <kapowaz> instead of shown
  484. [14:12:03] * kapowaz thinks he may get in touch with Remi Prevost and see if the two of us can't do some work on creating a 'definitive' version and some guidelines for use
  485. [14:12:17] * SignpostMarv opens SVG logo in GIMP
  486. [14:12:40] <kapowaz> SignpostMarv: are you going to start extolling the virtues of GIMP? Because I'm quite, quite bored of hearing that... it's on digg every five minutes.
  487. [14:14:27] <SignpostMarv> i've no idea how good GIMP is because it runs too slow on my windows box- there's like a 2-3 second lag on it when i'm using my graphics tablet
  488. [14:14:58] <kapowaz> fair enough, just so long as you're not about to start proselytising
  489. [14:15:39] <SignpostMarv> yes it can export to EPS
  490. [14:15:47] <kapowaz> what about to PSD?
  491. [14:16:03] <SignpostMarv> yep
  492. [14:16:04] <kapowaz> EPS isn't really much better than PNG, except that I can choose arbitrary rastering size
  493. [14:16:08] <kapowaz> ooh
  494. [14:16:13] <kapowaz> would you be able to save a copy and host it up?
  495. [14:17:33] <SignpostMarv> ah, no. Not got any hosting space that wouldn't collapse
  496. [14:17:52] <SignpostMarv> ah
  497. [14:18:15] <SignpostMarv> wait a sec- it appears GIMP rasterizes the SVG upon opening it
  498. [14:18:30] <kapowaz> joy.
  499. [14:18:46] <SignpostMarv> I would suggest contacting the original creator
  500. [14:18:55] <kapowaz> I'm doing so :)
  501. [14:19:25] <kapowaz> if I had Illustrator here it'd be fine
  502. [14:19:33] <kapowaz> I've a program which can open SVG and export as PDF
  503. [14:19:36] <kapowaz> Inkscape
  504. [14:19:43] <kapowaz> horribly Linux-y interface, but it does the job
  505. [14:20:59] <SignpostMarv> does it export as native vectoryness ?
  506. [14:23:30] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-6ddd29256adcfdc8) has joined #microformats
  507. [14:23:30] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  508. [14:23:44] <kapowaz> Inkscape's primary format is SVG
  509. [14:23:54] <kapowaz> so yeah
  510. [14:24:03] <kapowaz> I can actually do what I need with it for now, I think
  511. [14:24:13] <kapowaz> since I can export to PDF then raster the PDF in a chosen size
  512. [14:24:23] <kapowaz> but the layers won't be editable
  513. [14:24:36] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  514. [14:27:24] <kapowaz> anyway I've emailed Remi
  515. [14:27:33] <kapowaz> I shall revisit the matter once he replies
  516. [14:29:57] * CaptSolo (i=captsolo@kaste.lv) Quit (Connection timed out)
  517. [14:30:54] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  518. [14:30:55] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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  530. [15:06:31] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has left #microformats
  531. [15:12:58] * CaptSolo (i=captsolo@62.85.5.58) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  533. [15:31:31] * CaptSolo (i=captsolo@kaste.lv) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  535. [15:36:23] * drewinthehead_ (n=mclellan@tc133.proxy.ukl.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  536. [15:39:15] <kapowaz> drewtimestwo
  537. [15:40:30] <Ronnos> well, sometimes i think i'm with two also :)
  538. [15:40:56] <Ronnos> like the moments i hear those voices in my head
  539. [15:41:33] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  540. [15:41:34] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  541. [15:43:10] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-6ddd29256adcfdc8) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  542. [15:44:38] <kapowaz> ...
  543. [15:46:31] <pnhChris> sometimes i wish i was 2
  544. [15:46:53] <pnhChris> would get a lot more done
  545. [15:47:10] <kapowaz> any prototype-aware folks in the house?
  546. [15:47:17] <kapowaz> the #prototype channel is, as ever, dead as a duck
  547. [15:47:20] <kapowaz> a dead duck
  548. [15:47:21] <kapowaz> that is
  549. [15:47:29] <SignpostMarv> lol
  550. [15:47:34] <tantek> cloning and re-assimilation is quite handy indeed pnhChris
  551. [15:47:49] <kapowaz> speaking from experience, eh?
  552. [15:50:08] * shigeta (n=shigeta@137.147.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) has joined #microformats
  553. [15:52:01] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  554. [15:52:11] * SignpostMarv points tantek to the private message i hope got through on IRC
  555. [15:52:44] <tantek> you must be identified to NICKSERV on freenode in order to send PMs
  556. [15:52:51] <SignpostMarv> ah
  557. [15:53:18] <SignpostMarv> I wish Trillian would tell me these kinds of things. I forgot the password I registered this nick with
  558. [15:54:22] <tantek> Colloquy does the identification automatically
  559. [15:54:48] <kapowaz> Trillian! Got skinz?!?!1onelolz
  560. [15:54:49] <boneill> mirc does it for me when i connect
  561. [15:54:57] <kapowaz> most *proper* IRC clients do it
  562. [15:55:18] <SignpostMarv> i can recieve PMs you send me though right ?
  563. [15:55:25] <kapowaz> sorry SignpostMarv. that's hypocritical of me after what I said about GIMP earlier.
  564. [15:55:38] <SignpostMarv> hehe :P
  565. [15:57:18] * divoxx (n=rodrigo@201.37.108.13) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  566. [16:02:09] <SignpostMarv> so are you free to talk in PM Tantek ?
  567. [16:03:30] * drewinthehead_ (n=mclellan@tc133.proxy.ukl.yahoo.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  568. [16:04:27] <tantek> not really SignpostMarv
  569. [16:05:14] <kapowaz> well fingers crossed on the cloning thing then.
  570. [16:19:01] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  571. [16:21:47] * Cloud (n=Cloud@deri-wg1-2.nuigalway.ie) Quit ()
  572. [16:32:29] * blueNine (n=tigger@host213-123-130-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit ("leaving")
  573. [16:33:51] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ()
  574. [16:34:03] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  575. [16:39:26] * SignpostMarv (i=user@88-111-232-237.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  576. [16:42:20] * bengee (n=bengee@muedsl-82-207-128-166.citykom.de) Quit ("Leaving")
  577. [16:43:42] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  578. [16:46:15] * danja (n=danja@host12-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  579. [16:46:15] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  580. [16:47:00] * bewes1 (n=ben@209.237.236.227) has joined #microformats
  581. [16:48:27] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  582. [16:58:41] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  583. [16:59:17] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  584. [17:15:28] * hober2 (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  585. [17:18:17] * rohit__ (n=rohit@ip10.commerce.net) has joined #microformats
  586. [17:19:22] * shigeta (n=shigeta@137.147.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  587. [17:26:24] <rohit__> hey, we're gonna need to turn off editing over the weekend for this sever move-operation... shoot.
  588. [17:31:07] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
  589. [17:36:25] * hober2 is now known as hober
  590. [17:39:02] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  591. [17:39:03] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  592. [17:39:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  593. [17:51:15] * charles_r_ (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
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  600. [18:08:28] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  602. [18:09:56] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  606. [18:22:42] <Ronnos> woaw
  607. [18:23:12] <Ronnos> the uF wiki is going crazy or something like that :S
  608. [18:23:32] <Ronnos> database errors
  609. [18:24:00] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  610. [18:26:44] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  611. [18:26:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  612. [18:28:20] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  613. [18:38:40] <tantek> Ronnos, could you provide URLs where u r seeing errs?
  614. [18:39:18] <Ronnos> http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page
  615. [18:39:49] <Ronnos> hm, looks like there are more pages with this problem
  616. [18:39:50] <tantek> hmmm... just went there and didn't see any database errors or any other problems
  617. [18:40:01] <tantek> what in particular r u seeing/
  618. [18:40:02] <tantek> ?
  619. [18:40:23] <Ronnos> well, the error message is in Dutch :)
  620. [18:40:30] <Ronnos> MediaWikiBagOStuff:_doquery". MySQL gaf the foutmelding "3: Error writing file '/var/log/mysql/mysql.log' (Errcode: 30) (localhost)
  621. [18:41:00] <Ronnos> syntaxerror in the database
  622. [18:43:41] <Ronnos> tantek, only this page ( http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges ) works fine
  623. [18:49:54] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  624. [18:49:54] <jibot> vmarks is in NC
  625. [18:51:30] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ()
  626. [19:01:11] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  627. [19:04:28] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  628. [19:10:12] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abj100.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  629. [19:17:13] * _psychic__ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  630. [19:17:38] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  631. [19:20:27] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  632. [19:24:39] <Ronnos> tantek, working on the wiki?
  633. [19:35:21] * _psychic__ is now known as _psychic_
  634. [19:41:36] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  635. [19:48:45] <kingryan> Ronnos: we're working on it
  636. [19:48:49] <kingryan> filesystem problems
  637. [19:48:57] <Ronnos> aha okay!
  638. [19:49:13] <kingryan> have to send someone to the colo to reboot it
  639. [19:59:44] * mfbot (n=mfbot@4.79.216.8) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  640. [20:18:04] * izo_ (n=izo_@82.66.128.84) has joined #microformats
  641. [20:20:30] <bewes1> kingryan: where is it?
  642. [20:20:45] <kingryan> actually, I don't know
  643. [20:20:51] <kingryan> commercenet takes care of it for us
  644. [20:21:07] <kingryan> they can't get anyone there until 4pm, though
  645. [20:22:37] * kingryan changes topic to 'microformats.org down || add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people || about the channel: http://microformats.org/wiki/irc || archives: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/'
  646. [20:39:58] <pnhChris> but its past 4 :P
  647. [20:42:29] <kingryan> not where the server resides
  648. [20:44:54] * tantek_ (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  649. [20:45:20] <pnhChris> mere technicality
  650. [20:47:22] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  651. [20:47:22] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  652. [20:51:32] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  653. [20:55:02] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) has joined #microformats
  654. [20:55:02] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk (+0000/+0100 GMT)
  655. [20:57:01] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  657. [21:14:10] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  658. [21:25:52] * danja (n=danja@host12-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  659. [21:33:51] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  660. [21:53:17] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 2.0/2006101023]")
  661. [22:04:28] <hober> whoa. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/166
  662. [22:04:40] * remi (i=remi@c66.203.212-11.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  663. [22:04:40] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  664. [22:07:53] <tantek_> wow. "The attempt to get the world to switch to XML, including quotes around attribute values and slashes in empty tags and namespaces all at once didn't work."
  665. [22:07:56] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  666. [22:07:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  667. [22:11:01] <kingryan_> wow
  668. [22:11:08] <kingryan_> "The plan is to charter a completely new HTML group."
  669. [22:11:14] * kingryan_ is now known as kingryan
  670. [22:11:14] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  671. [22:12:00] <tantek> re: "As always, we will be insisting on working implementations and test suites." - if so, then all so-called RECs without test suites (<cough>XHTML</cough>) MUST be set back to CR status immediately. Otherwise the "as always" / "insisting" qualifiers/statements are false.
  672. [22:12:17] <kingryan> blog that
  673. [22:12:27] <bewes1> wow
  674. [22:12:53] <kingryan> I wonder if Hixie, et al are involved
  675. [22:13:26] <kingryan> no links yet http://technorati.com/search/dig.csail.mit.edu%2Fbreadcrumbs%2Fnode%2F166?sub=toolsearch
  676. [22:14:04] * kingryan wonders if Hixie noticed his name being dropped
  677. [22:14:50] <Hixie> yes, i do, i was reading his blog
  678. [22:15:02] <Hixie> he's wrong that whatwg has no process
  679. [22:15:07] <Hixie> it has a very well defined process
  680. [22:15:12] <Hixie> it's also a very simple process
  681. [22:15:14] <kingryan> yeah
  682. [22:15:27] <kingryan> maybe its too simple for him to recognize as a process?
  683. [22:15:29] <Hixie> i listen to people, i make a decision, i publish, rinse, repeat.
  684. [22:15:43] <kingryan> and you promise to respond to all feedback, right?
  685. [22:16:17] <Hixie> yeah
  686. [22:16:23] <kingryan> sounds like a process to me
  687. [22:16:23] <Hixie> that promise is so gonna bite me in the ass :-P
  688. [22:16:37] <kingryan> well, you don't promise *when* you'll respond
  689. [22:16:55] <Hixie> yeah
  690. [22:17:23] <Hixie> but i have literally a thousand or more outstanding e-mails by this point
  691. [22:17:31] <kingryan> och
  692. [22:17:33] <kingryan> ouch*
  693. [22:17:49] <kingryan> you need help :D
  694. [22:19:14] <Hixie> hehe
  695. [22:19:20] <Hixie> i don't trust anyone else :-P
  696. [22:19:30] <bewes1> hehe
  697. [22:19:33] <bewes1> you know what they say...
  698. [22:19:39] <kingryan> neither would I
  699. [22:19:40] <tantek> Ian "Mulder" Hickson
  700. [22:19:46] <bewes1> "if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
  701. [22:20:23] <bewes1> any ideas on who/what the new group will look like, or would that be pointless speculation?
  702. [22:21:21] <kingryan> DanC might be able to help :D
  703. [22:21:36] <kingryan> since he's been dropping hints about this new WG for awhile, it seems
  704. [22:23:00] <tantek> I'm not optimistic about the new group being able to catch up with WHATWG.
  705. [22:23:30] * DanC is sorta taking today off, but tunes in
  706. [22:23:54] <DanC> hmm... I was expecting something like http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/166 , but I was expecting it in http://www.w3.org/QA/
  707. [22:24:01] <tantek> If Hixie decides to continue WHATWG either in parallel or inspite, I know where I would put my bets on specifications that are implemented and stable first, despite the fact that he is 1000+ emails behind.
  708. [22:25:10] <tantek> Until the weekly telcon + quarterly f2f mtg working group model is dropped and rethought, the rate of progress of working groups will be quite limited.
  709. [22:27:37] <DanC> I find weekly telcons pretty important as sync points to go along with mailing lists.
  710. [22:28:23] <DanC> and there's a time and a place for f2f meetings; we're not using them for the GRDDL WG, for instance.
  711. [22:28:49] <tantek> I find sync points to be limiting by the nature of the single threaded/speaker audio medium and the requirement of temporal synchronicity.
  712. [22:29:19] <tantek> weekly telcon sync points that is
  713. [22:29:36] <DanC> I found the "office hours" thing pretty much essential to effective collaboration on hCard tests.
  714. [22:30:37] <tantek> IRC > phone
  715. [22:30:38] <DanC> could be just my work style.
  716. [22:30:45] <Hixie> imho telecons are useless, face-to-face meetings more so, at least in terms of cost-per-unit-benefit.
  717. [22:30:58] <tantek> IRC bandwidth > audio speech bandwidth
  718. [22:31:04] <tantek> semantically speaking
  719. [22:31:06] <Hixie> there is a great benefit to 2-person and 3-person meetings in person with a whiteboard
  720. [22:31:12] <Hixie> but anything more is usuless
  721. [22:31:15] <Hixie> useless, rather
  722. [22:31:17] <tantek> though ironically requiring less bitrate bandwidth
  723. [22:31:19] <Hixie> as a means of collaboration
  724. [22:31:43] <kingryan> DanC: IRC office hours are much different than a formal weekly meeting
  725. [22:31:50] <DanC> it's easy to do a f2f meeting poorly. but done well, they're worthwhile, in some cases.
  726. [22:31:56] <tantek> voice/speech is better at conveying emotion, but that's about it
  727. [22:32:22] <DanC> how so, kingryan ?
  728. [22:32:43] <tantek> IRC is easier to slice in while multitasking
  729. [22:33:20] <Hixie> DanC: in every case where i've been involved in a group with f2fs or telecons, the rate of progress has been dramattically -- orders of magnitude -- slower than in groups where i have had just a mailing list.
  730. [22:33:27] <kingryan> the informality of office hours allows us to meet as necessary. no one is required to come. there's no organizational overhead of voting/scribe-ing/etc.
  731. [22:33:36] <Hixie> (or just a mailing list and informal meetings online or in person)
  732. [22:33:47] <tantek> and no participant stress of not voting/scribing/ etc.
  733. [22:34:04] <kingryan> it would seem that converting the weekly telecon's to IRCcon's could lead to a productivity boost
  734. [22:34:06] <tantek> makes it easier to informally participate and incrementally complete small tasks
  735. [22:34:24] <DanC> Hixie, it's entirely possible that all the times when you've done email-only collaboration have been groups of like-minded, trusting people. It's easy to go fast in that situation.
  736. [22:34:47] <tantek> DanC - no need to assume that without supporting evidence
  737. [22:34:48] <DanC> we use IRC during telcons
  738. [22:34:55] <tantek> but it is secondary
  739. [22:35:00] <Hixie> DanC: the whatwg is a group of several hundred people, and believe me, they're not all like-minded :-)
  740. [22:35:06] <tantek> voice still requires too much attention bandwidth
  741. [22:35:07] <DanC> I didn't assume; I'm just challenging the causality
  742. [22:35:33] <tantek> good point Hixie, I don't know of any W3C wg with several hundred people
  743. [22:35:40] <kingryan> Hixie: however, it does seem that people trust you in whatwg
  744. [22:35:41] <kingryan> :D
  745. [22:35:59] <kingryan> also, the "several hundred people" can participate informally
  746. [22:36:00] <DanC> there are lots of W3C mailing lists with several hundred people; e.g. www-tag
  747. [22:36:06] <Hixie> DanC: but having said that, any group where the participants have different goals is going to result in a poor standard and little progress. You're far better off having two standards each targetted at the actual use cases than a compromise standard (since in the latter case neither use case will actually be well handled)
  748. [22:36:26] <Hixie> at least in my experience
  749. [22:36:28] <Hixie> which i admit is limited
  750. [22:36:32] <DanC> true, it's better to not pretend people want the same thing when they don't
  751. [22:36:47] <Hixie> (i've only been involved in a dozen or so standards so far, in six or so groups)
  752. [22:36:55] <DanC> well, mostly. sometimes you just have to have a standard for railroad track size, even when people don't like each other.
  753. [22:37:06] <Hixie> i disagree
  754. [22:37:22] <Hixie> if you have a train that goes up a steep hill, it makes no sense to use the same gauge as a train that goes on a plain.
  755. [22:37:32] <Hixie> and indeed, they don't use the same gauge.
  756. [22:37:42] <kingryan> DanC: I'm not sure that analogy effectively maps to the digital realm
  757. [22:38:15] <Hixie> similarly, in model trains, if you want to make a model of a single station and have a lot of room, you'll want a much bigger gauge than if you want to model an interstate on a small table.
  758. [22:38:19] <DanC> fair enough; I'm happy to leave the head-butting standards efforts to somebody else in any case.
  759. [22:38:45] <Hixie> :-)
  760. [22:38:57] <tantek> DanC, the incidental costs of experimentation and competition among various choices in the virtual world is much lower than the same in the physical world.
  761. [22:38:57] <Hixie> (the original xbl group was an example of this, btw)
  762. [22:40:22] <DanC> Jon Bosak's charter for the XML WG was carefully designed to produce a standard even if the participants disagreed. I suppose the results speak for themselves, in a way. ;-)
  763. [22:40:49] <Hixie> no comment
  764. [22:41:11] <DanC> XML sucks in various ways, but I think it has done more good than harm, on balance.
  765. [22:41:22] <Hixie> sure
  766. [22:41:26] <Hixie> but it's utterly failed in some spaces
  767. [22:41:33] <DanC> sure
  768. [22:41:55] <Hixie> XML really needs to be split in two, imho
  769. [22:42:02] <Hixie> but that's another problem altogether
  770. [22:42:27] <bewes1> tantek: actually, it's better than hearing bandwidth, not speech bandwidth, right?
  771. [22:42:46] <bewes1> gah... missed the timing on that :( ignore me
  772. [22:44:23] <DanC> I really like the wiki/irc/mailing-list combo. But I do miss 2 things: (1) a roadmap (2) periodic checkpoints/updates to the roadmap
  773. [22:45:08] <tantek> bewes1 - no, I can copy and paste into IRC, I can't copy and paste into the phone.
  774. [22:45:14] <DanC> i.e. if I have a goal for hCalendar, there's no telling how much time I need to budget to get it done. Granted, nobody has a perfect crystal ball, but I think planning, with some flexibility, is useful.
  775. [22:45:31] <Hixie> danc: speaking of roadmaps (and i mean this without the slightest intent at offense), what is it with wg charters in the w3c and crazy unrealistic timetables?
  776. [22:45:48] <tantek> DanC, you have to have more faith in organic incremental process than top-down hierarchically planned incremental process.
  777. [22:46:19] <Hixie> DanC: e.g. the webapi charter had a first public wd date of _before_ the group's start date
  778. [22:46:45] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  779. [22:47:02] <DanC> indeed, Hixie, I find that sort of thing unacceptable. Note that the groups I'm involved in keep public schedules, and we update them from time to time.
  780. [22:47:02] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  781. [22:47:07] <tantek> Even the word "roadmap" assumes that you can/should map out where the roads should go any appreciable point into the future.
  782. [22:47:22] <tantek> As opposed to carefully following the cowpaths and natural foottrails.
  783. [22:47:28] <csarven> you can have small roadmaps though :)
  784. [22:47:41] <tantek> csarven, but that's not what happens in practice.
  785. [22:47:57] <tantek> in practice, roadmaps typically map out roads into fields that the market couldn't care less about.
  786. [22:48:24] <csarven> i supposew3c is taking a more holistic approach in most cases
  787. [22:49:03] <tantek> and then people blindly believe/follow them, because they like the prefer artificial stability of an imaginary roadmap to the the natural instability of the real marketplace.
  788. [22:49:14] <tantek> s/the the/the
  789. [22:49:25] <csarven> true that
  790. [22:50:46] <csarven> i think the problem is there is too much of an attempt to solve bunch of things as supposed to solving a specific small problem
  791. [22:50:55] <tantek> or to generalize even further, people would rather have blind faith in illusion and myth, than accept the uncertainty of the natural world
  792. [22:51:10] <tantek> csarven, yes, that is one problem
  793. [22:51:18] <Hixie> DanC: (i just tried to send you a /msg but it looks like this network only allows /msgs if you're authenticated)
  794. [22:51:26] <DanC> tantek, do you completely rule out any sort of risk aggregation at all?
  795. [22:51:49] <DanC> yes, I got your /msg Hixie; I guess you can't get my replies
  796. [22:52:05] <DanC> odd; you'd think it would go the other way
  797. [22:52:45] <Hixie> i'm on w3's network too if that helps
  798. [22:53:26] <DanC> well, I think I'm gonna go back to "day off" mode.
  799. [22:53:34] <DanC> tim would pick my day off to launch that thing. oh well.
  800. [22:53:42] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  801. [22:53:49] <Hixie> heh
  802. [22:53:50] <tantek> DanC, I'm not sure what you mean by risk aggregation
  803. [22:54:01] <DanC> another time, I hope, tantek
  804. [22:54:25] <tantek> np
  805. [23:00:10] <bewes1> there are several of us that are organically committed to roadmap-ey-type things... see all the efforts on reorganizing the wiki, IA...
  806. [23:00:53] <tantek> bewes1 - projects are not roadmaps
  807. [23:01:20] <tantek> roadmaps typically have artificial datetimes associated with them
  808. [23:01:24] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  809. [23:01:45] <tantek> the efforts you describe are simply a set of projects / designs in progress that will complete somewhat organically and unpredictably
  810. [23:01:53] <tantek> and with uneven spurts in progress
  811. [23:02:00] <bewes1> but the value isn't in the list of dates
  812. [23:02:03] <tantek> all of which is just fine
  813. [23:02:07] <csarven> i wish i knew more about how w3c manages their budget
  814. [23:03:07] <boneill> money -> Semantic Web
  815. [23:03:24] <boneill> :)
  816. [23:03:28] <csarven> im not sure if i understand that inference :)
  817. [23:03:49] <csarven> if you have money, then semantic web?
  818. [23:03:58] <csarven> money goes into semantic web?
  819. [23:04:38] <BenWard> csarven, boneill: Perhaps that admittedly debatable inference can be reversed if we finish the currency Microformat?
  820. [23:04:45] <boneill> lol
  821. [23:04:57] <boneill> it's how academics work, similar to the underpants gnomes of South Park.
  822. [23:05:11] <boneill> 1. Semantic Web, 2. ?, 3. Profit
  823. [23:05:35] <boneill> or Research -> ? -> Profit :)
  824. [23:05:45] <BenWard> You have to have 4 points for that to work Ben
  825. [23:06:24] <csarven> 1. Something 2. Profit
  826. [23:06:26] <boneill> I realised that after I'd started, now i just look silly
  827. [23:06:28] <BenWard> Maybe _that's_ why we're not all writing RDF, they're missing a point.
  828. [23:06:32] <bewes1> tantek: regarding speech bandwidth, I was going to point out that the I/O aren't equal bindings in this case... everyone can talk at once with no bandwidth problem. the problem resides in the fact that it becomes difficult to understand more than one thing at the same time :-)
  829. [23:06:57] <bewes1> ? how many "Ben"s are there in here?
  830. [23:07:02] * BenWard apologises for that gag and returns to lurking
  831. [23:07:31] <boneill> not enough
  832. [23:07:37] <bewes1> 3?
  833. [23:08:04] <BenWard> Sounds like it.
  834. [23:08:10] <bewes1> oy
  835. [23:09:10] <BenWard> There's also Ben Buchanan on uf-discuss, but I don't know if he IRCs
  836. [23:10:07] <BenWard> And a few posts from a Benjamin Carlyle. Is 5 enough to have something important named after us?
  837. [23:11:05] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) Quit ()
  838. [23:11:31] <bewes1> I should think so!
  839. [23:13:04] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  840. [23:13:44] <hober> hBen
  841. [23:16:06] <BenWard> A microformat to differentiate between people asking for 'Ben' in IRC, to prevent our IRC client's causing alerts at the wrong time?
  842. [23:16:24] <BenWard> Maybe I should roll that into the hChatLog strawman…
  843. [23:16:38] <BenWard> Although I think there's prior art in surnames.
  844. [23:16:52] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable128.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  845. [23:18:13] <cbarrett> BenWard: have you taken a look at the stuff I've put up on the hChat pages?
  846. [23:18:19] <cbarrett> specifically ULF
  847. [23:19:14] * BenWard loads up the Wiki
  848. [23:19:25] <kingryan> the site's down
  849. [23:19:28] <kingryan> good luck
  850. [23:20:28] <tantek> bewes1 - the other difference is in hysteresis and catchup
  851. [23:20:55] <tantek> e.g. much easier to scroll up and scan an IRC window than to record an audio stream, rewind and attempt to catchup
  852. [23:21:10] <tantek> so I can pop in and out in terms of attention/focus and still participate
  853. [23:21:22] <BenWard> kingryan: So I see. Is it intentional downtime?
  854. [23:21:27] <kingryan> nope
  855. [23:21:34] <kingryan> filesystem corruption problems
  856. [23:21:48] <BenWard> Eek.
  857. [23:21:52] <kingryan> ironically, the unplanned downtime has gotten in the way of the planned downtime
  858. [23:24:54] * tantek notes that at least the channel is still up (thanks freenode) and still being archived (thanks Robert Bachmann).
  859. [23:38:50] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
  860. [23:45:44] <Hixie> kingryan: commented
  861. [23:46:08] <Hixie> kingryan: i'm quite impressed that i learnt of your blog post from a google alert, btw.
  862. [23:57:26] * KevinMarks catches up

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