IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-10-27
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:21:06] <mfbot>
[[chat-strawman]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/chat-strawman * Ben Ward * (+10189) Create 'hChatLog' straw man proposal
- [00:21:18] <factoryjoe>
BenWard++
- [00:22:03] <BenWard>
OK, does anyone know why a Windows keyboard plugged into a MacBook Pro might intermittently spew duplicate/random characters into my text?
- [00:22:27] <BenWard>
Other than it spiting me for writing a longish document.
- [00:23:14] <boneill>
It's sicked that you'd abuse it in such a manor
- [00:23:17] <boneill>
*manner
- [00:23:30] <boneill>
arg nevermind the typos in that sentence...
- [00:23:33] <tantek>
BenWard - please add your straw man to chat-brainstorming instead
- [00:23:49] <BenWard>
tantek: I was going to link to it from there, with it being quite long?
- [00:23:56] <tantek>
oh is it?
- [00:24:27] <tantek>
nah, go ahead and put it inline
- [00:24:33] <BenWard>
OK
- [00:24:37] <tantek>
much better to be able to compare/contrast different brainstorms/proposals
- [00:24:46] <BenWard>
Yeah, that's a fair point.
- [00:24:50] <tantek>
I'd say try to always start with things inline
- [00:25:00] <tantek>
and then only move to separate pages when painfully necessary to do so
- [00:25:10] <BenWard>
OK
- [00:25:11] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [00:25:31] <tantek>
with the exception of when we already have taxonomic patterns for new page creation such as *-examples, *-formats, *-brainstorming, *-issues, *-feedback, *-faq
- [00:25:37] <tantek>
thanks!
- [00:27:42] <mfbot>
[[chat-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9874 * Ben Ward * (+10206) Example playground - Added strawman
- [00:28:54] <BenWard>
Is it possible for me to remove the -strawman page? Or can only wiki admins do that?
- [00:29:53] <tantek>
do you see a "delete" link in the tabs at the top of the page?
- [00:30:20] <BenWard>
Nope.
- [00:34:22] <tantek>
ok, must be admin only then
- [00:34:39] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "chat-strawman": contents moved to [[chat-brainstorming]]
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- [00:37:55] <BenWard>
Thanks tantek
- [00:38:56] <tantek>
np - thanks for your brainstorming
- [00:39:46] <boneill>
we were told at uni today not to call it brainstorming anymore
- [00:40:01] <tantek>
why, some sort of newspeak?
- [00:40:11] <boneill>
apparently that's offensive to dyslexic people
- [00:40:16] <BenWard>
I heard that once too
- [00:40:27] <boneill>
politically correctness takes another victim
- [00:40:33] <tantek>
free speech > offensensitivity
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- [00:41:26] <BenWard>
Political Correctness is losing its touch. It gets in the newspapers and tells us we can't say things anymore, but no-one is listening. I'm pretty sure _more_ people say 'nitty gritty' now than before someone tried to take it away.
- [00:42:20] <factoryjoe>
if not brainstorming than what?
- [00:42:24] <factoryjoe>
brainjams?
- [00:42:25] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [00:42:57] <BenWard>
factoryjoe: mmmBrainjam.
- [00:43:10] <BenWard>
Makes me hungry for toast, that'll never do.
- [00:43:50] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ()
- [00:48:54] <BenWard>
Well, I shall take my jam on toast hunger and save it for breakfast. I'll have a crack at cleaning up that brainstorm from typos and the like in the morning. 'night all.
- [00:49:18] <factoryjoe>
night
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- [00:56:00] <mfbot>
[[icons]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=icons&diff=0&oldid=9875 * Chris Messina * (+2098) added web icons
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- [01:13:29] <sreynen>
this was on del.icio.us/popular : http://www.whymicroformats.com/articles/2006/10/04/introduction-to-microformats
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- [01:26:51] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [03:44:37] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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- [04:30:21] <Frederic>
Hello
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- [05:10:47] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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trel1023 is Terrell Russell of http://claimID.com and http://weblog.terrellrussell.com
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- [06:40:37] <jibot>
bear is located near Philadelphia, PA and the build/release grunt for OSAF and an apprentice python hacker
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- [06:41:38] <jibot>
bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
- [06:43:03] <bewest>
tantek: on http://microformats.org/wiki/why-are-content-standards-hard you say "note: it was an *accident* that HTML was easy to learn for non-technical authors, designers, artists etc.: "
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- [06:43:27] <bewest>
I'm not sure HTML was easy to learn, considering we are still combating abuses such as using tables for layout
- [06:43:48] <bewest>
and new people typically use tools to generate bad html because it is so hard to learn
- [06:45:30] <Frederic>
s/it's so hard to learn/they re too lazy to think about learning/g
- [06:45:37] <KevinMarks>
no, they make bad html because it is forgiving
- [06:45:43] <KevinMarks>
which is a good thing
- [06:45:43] <Frederic>
HTML is just text formating you know
- [06:46:50] <bewest>
many people new to html have a hard time learning css... especially when they know tables will make it /look/ like they want
- [06:47:05] <bewest>
that's not a laziness issue, it's satisificing at work
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- [07:25:55] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [07:29:30] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [07:54:20] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [07:56:12] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
- [07:59:51] <McNulty>
morning
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- [08:00:17] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [08:04:39] <tantek>
bewest, HTML was easy to learn in comparison to anything else comparable simply evident by the raw numbers of people that did anything with it.
- [08:05:08] <tantek>
that aspect was an *accident* as it was not an explicit design objective of the creator
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- [08:06:33] <McNulty>
tantek - the fact user-agents have traditionally been very lenient about markup probably helped immensely.
- [08:07:23] <tantek>
indeed that is likely
- [08:10:19] <factoryjoe>
it also helped that html only helped markup initially very simple data
- [08:10:38] <factoryjoe>
literally building blocks like paragraphs and headings
- [08:10:48] <factoryjoe>
i remember when i first saw html
- [08:10:54] <factoryjoe>
(I think)
- [08:11:10] <factoryjoe>
there was some sense to it
- [08:11:17] <factoryjoe>
RDF OTOH...
- [08:11:21] <factoryjoe>
i read about in a book
- [08:11:29] <factoryjoe>
and i couldn't make any sense of it
- [08:11:47] <factoryjoe>
my first experience w/ html
- [08:11:48] <factoryjoe>
actually
- [08:11:52] <factoryjoe>
was in 7th grade
- [08:12:15] <McNulty>
7th grade?!
- [08:12:15] <factoryjoe>
when the class nerd turned in his homework assignment printed out from a web browser -- from HTML that he'd written to format the tables
- [08:12:21] <factoryjoe>
i think so
- [08:12:31] <McNulty>
I hate young people
- [08:12:36] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [08:12:41] <factoryjoe>
b 1981
- [08:12:45] <McNulty>
that's like 13, right?
- [08:12:52] <factoryjoe>
it would be
- [08:13:15] <McNulty>
I didn't encounter HTML until about '96
- [08:13:18] <McNulty>
when I was... 18
- [08:13:38] <factoryjoe>
well, that's not that big a difference
- [08:14:03] <factoryjoe>
i actually had a blog before i knew i did
- [08:14:33] * bengee wonders which web browser factoryjoe used in 1981
- [08:14:39] <factoryjoe>
http://web.archive.org/web/20010404233502/http://www.factorycity.net/
- [08:14:43] <factoryjoe>
heh
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- [08:15:25] <factoryjoe>
all my beautiful html table layouts...
- [08:15:28] <factoryjoe>
from back in the day
- [08:15:49] <factoryjoe>
wow
- [08:15:50] <factoryjoe>
1998
- [08:15:51] <factoryjoe>
http://web.archive.org/web/19981212032517/http://www.sandstormpublishing.com/
- [08:16:54] <factoryjoe>
too bad all the images are gone
- [08:17:23] <McNulty>
If only you'd used @alt...
- [08:17:34] <factoryjoe>
heh
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- [08:22:25] <factoryjoe>
did y'all see the mf icons?
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- [08:23:02] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [08:23:03] <factoryjoe>
http://factorycity.net/projects/microformats%2Dicons/
- [08:23:44] <mfbot>
[[icons]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=icons&diff=0&oldid=9876 * Chris Messina * (+57)
- [08:23:46] <McNulty>
What would the 'CV' button do?
- [08:23:52] <factoryjoe>
hresume
- [08:23:53] <McNulty>
What's the action that occurs when you click it, I mean
- [08:23:57] <factoryjoe>
ah
- [08:23:57] <factoryjoe>
well
- [08:24:04] <factoryjoe>
you'd subscribe to someone's resume
- [08:24:19] <McNulty>
the h(Atom/Card/Calendar) ones all have obvious purposes
- [08:24:25] <factoryjoe>
like you're supposed to do w/ hcard
- [08:24:26] <drewinthehead>
in your resume subscription program :)
- [08:24:29] <factoryjoe>
right
- [08:24:34] <factoryjoe>
like emurse or linkedin
- [08:24:38] <McNulty>
oh yes I forgot about my resume reader....
- [08:24:39] <McNulty>
;-:
- [08:24:44] <factoryjoe>
(I've been working on them... they're getting there!)
- [08:24:48] <factoryjoe>
but yes
- [08:24:56] <factoryjoe>
so you'd publish hresume on your website
- [08:25:13] <factoryjoe>
and you'd tell them to grab your hresume from your website -- to "subscribe" to it
- [08:25:22] <factoryjoe>
so that when you make changes, it's always up to date
- [08:25:26] <factoryjoe>
and i'm a job seeker
- [08:25:32] <McNulty>
sure
- [08:25:33] <factoryjoe>
i look at all your rel-me links
- [08:25:36] <factoryjoe>
and find the hresume
- [08:25:44] <factoryjoe>
and put it in my hresume-reader basket
- [08:25:53] <McNulty>
you're an employer, you mean
- [08:25:55] <factoryjoe>
and when you come in for your interview i had up-to-date info
- [08:26:01] <factoryjoe>
err
- [08:26:02] <factoryjoe>
yes
- [08:26:04] <factoryjoe>
that's it
- [08:38:15] <McNulty>
Does anyone have a list of attributes that can take URLs?
- [08:38:38] <McNulty>
I'm writing a web service thingy and need to resolve the URLs in some HTML to be absolute
- [08:39:32] <McNulty>
@href, @src ... ?
- [08:40:19] <McNulty>
ah, @action
- [08:42:05] <McNulty>
never mind, found it from the HTML spec
- [08:42:29] <davecardwell>
@data?
- [08:42:37] <davecardwell>
heh, too slow
- [08:42:41] <McNulty>
there seem to be Looooads
- [08:42:47] <davecardwell>
URL?
- [08:42:56] <davecardwell>
(to the spec)
- [08:43:02] <McNulty>
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/attributes.html (the ones with Type=%URI)
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- [08:43:56] <davecardwell>
ta
- [08:44:28] <davecardwell>
that's a few more than I was expecting
- [08:44:40] <McNulty>
@action, @background, @cite, @classid, @codebase, @data, @href, @longdesc, @profile, @src, @usemap
- [08:45:19] <McNulty>
I'm not 100% sure which is easiest, Xpathing all of those or just finding http(s)://es
- [08:45:34] <davecardwell>
@valuetype in a param might be a URI if @valuetype is set to "ref"
- [08:45:39] <davecardwell>
that might be a bit of a stretch though :p
- [08:46:05] <davecardwell>
uh, that should be @value in a <param> might be a URI if @valuetype is set to "ref"
- [08:46:10] <mfbot>
[[rel-home-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-home-issues&diff=0&oldid=9877 * Phae * (+38) Rel-Home of Rel-Index -
- [08:46:31] <McNulty>
hmmm
- [08:46:42] <McNulty>
true, but let's assume that's out of scope for uF parsing ;-)
- [08:46:47] <davecardwell>
if they're relative paths you're converting to absolute, they wouldn't have a protocol
- [08:47:05] <McNulty>
d'oh, true
- [08:47:14] <McNulty>
I'm basically thinking of writing an include-pattern proxy
- [08:47:16] <davecardwell>
and might not begin with a / either
- [08:47:25] <davecardwell>
hrm
- [08:47:33] <McNulty>
that can adopt slightly different include-path methods
- [08:47:50] <McNulty>
so that you can use it with services that haven't implemented it yet
- [08:48:03] <McNulty>
And hopefully it'd spark a bit of debate about which include strategy to use
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- [08:58:52] <mfbot>
[[chat-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=9878 * Ben Ward * (-200) hChatLog Strawman Proposal - – Typo corrections.
- [08:59:24] * BenWard (n=BenWard@host86-143-104-226.range86-143.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [08:59:24] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk (+0000/+0100 GMT)
- [09:13:44] <kapowaz>
well, it's friday
- [09:13:59] <kapowaz>
and so I give to you: www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com
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- [09:20:15] <drewinthehead>
cats that look like data would be better :D
- [09:20:48] <KevinMarks>
einsteins cat?
- [09:22:14] <drewinthehead>
that was pretty quick, KevinMarks :)
- [09:22:28] <drewinthehead>
you're more awake than I am, clearly
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- [09:34:32] <kapowaz>
by data do you mean noughts and ones?
- [09:34:38] <kapowaz>
or the android in star trek?
- [09:36:18] <kapowaz>
oh, is this a reference to this? http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/eincat.html
- [09:42:17] <KevinMarks>
indeed
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- [10:00:24] <kapowaz>
very good
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- [10:13:42] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
- [10:13:42] <jibot>
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
- [10:14:50] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
- [10:41:52] <kapowaz>
how annoying.
- [10:42:18] <kapowaz>
if you use -moz-border-radius on a UL, and a background on the contained LIs, the background of the LI obscures the rounded corners of the UL
- [10:42:33] <kapowaz>
and I thought the slapdash aliased rendering was bad enough as it was...
- [10:43:04] <McNulty>
I guess that's why it's still a moz-* ;-)
- [10:45:13] <kapowaz>
I imagine so.
- [10:45:30] <kapowaz>
I can't figure out why they'd use a non-antialiased method anyway
- [10:46:06] <kapowaz>
surely creating anti-aliased rounded edges is trivially easy in any modern 2D graphics API
- [10:46:20] <McNulty>
I dunno how mozilla renders stuff.
- [10:47:23] <kapowaz>
well neither do I. I am making uninformed guesses that are quite possibly spectacularly wrong.
- [10:47:36] <kapowaz>
gripe #2 for the morning: list-style-image
- [10:47:48] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has left #microformats
- [10:47:53] <kapowaz>
:|
- [10:47:57] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
- [10:48:11] <kapowaz>
you had me thinking my griping was excessive there.
- [10:48:22] <McNulty>
well it is a little ;-)
- [10:48:31] * McNulty thinks back to the last rant, about cleartype :-)
- [10:48:57] <McNulty>
What's wrong with list-style-image?
- [10:50:44] <kapowaz>
if the image is bigger (taller) than the height of the LI, then the text in the LI flows to the bottom
- [10:50:57] <kapowaz>
I can't think of a reason why you'd ever want that by default
- [10:51:05] <kapowaz>
either you'd want the text to align to the top, or you'd want it centred
- [10:51:05] <McNulty>
sorry, I don't get what you mean.
- [10:51:11] <kapowaz>
I'll show
- [10:51:20] <McNulty>
I'd *expect* it to clip
- [10:51:26] <McNulty>
the image.
- [10:52:43] <kapowaz>
it doesn't do that either
- [10:53:01] <kapowaz>
maybe you can specify it with attributes I don't know of
- [10:55:03] <kapowaz>
http://www.kapowaz.net/teamphone/damnyouli.html
- [10:55:32] <McNulty>
huh, it's changed the height of the LI?!
- [10:55:37] <kapowaz>
indeed!
- [10:55:44] <kapowaz>
what cockwittery is this?
- [10:55:47] <McNulty>
ah it's not fixed-height
- [10:55:58] <McNulty>
intersting though
- [10:56:11] <McNulty>
you can likely work around it using background image instead
- [10:56:20] <kapowaz>
not in my case
- [10:56:29] <McNulty>
oh?
- [10:56:39] <kapowaz>
that would require the background colour I have extend to full width of the UL
- [10:56:50] <kapowaz>
and I want the UL colour to show through behind the list-style-image
- [10:57:47] <kapowaz>
reload and you'll see
- [10:59:01] <McNulty>
Ah you want it to stand outside the LI
- [10:59:09] <kapowaz>
yes
- [10:59:14] <McNulty>
hm
- [10:59:17] <kapowaz>
I'm baffled by this behaviour.
- [10:59:26] <kapowaz>
I cannot for the life of me think why that would be a desirable effect
- [10:59:27] <McNulty>
I really dont' see why it's reflowing like that
- [10:59:31] <kapowaz>
me either
- [10:59:39] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-96b720072eba3e13) has joined #microformats
- [10:59:39] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [10:59:39] <kapowaz>
I don't suppose you're on a Mac are you?
- [10:59:50] <kapowaz>
I'll test it in Opera
- [11:00:11] <kapowaz>
does the same
- [11:00:35] <kapowaz>
although interestingly, it appears the image is more right-aligned than the Firefox one
- [11:00:57] <kapowaz>
IE7 does something entirely different
- [11:01:02] <kapowaz>
although equally baffling
- [11:01:16] <julianstahnke>
maybe you could just use a padding and a background image that contains the check mark as well as the solid background?
- [11:01:29] <kapowaz>
possibly, but that's really quite hacky
- [11:01:53] <kapowaz>
I should point out that this test has a bit of a caveat; the tickmark has a lot of padding in the image itself
- [11:02:10] <kapowaz>
but the point still stands that the text oughtn't reflow like that
- [11:02:20] <kapowaz>
I'm curious to hear what Safari does
- [11:02:41] <julianstahnke>
expandes the li
- [11:03:25] <julianstahnke>
but I think it's the right behaviour
- [11:03:28] <julianstahnke>
it's an image
- [11:03:33] <julianstahnke>
not a background image
- [11:03:45] <boneill>
indeed
- [11:03:49] <kapowaz>
well, it's neither
- [11:03:52] <kapowaz>
it's a list-image
- [11:03:57] <boneill>
a more common way of doing that is to make it the background image
- [11:04:04] <kapowaz>
aye, and why is that more common?
- [11:04:17] <kapowaz>
perhaps because the specified way of doing it is problematic?
- [11:04:21] <boneill>
because if it's the "bullet point" the li will be made tall enough so the "bullet point" is totally visible
- [11:04:29] <kapowaz>
that itself is logical
- [11:04:37] <kapowaz>
but I'd argue the text shouldn't reflow that way
- [11:04:50] <kapowaz>
either that or the visibility of the image should be tied to the height of the LI
- [11:05:50] <kapowaz>
I'm thinking of all the other places where an image is used instead of a bullet in lists, things like file listings, icons next to menu items etc.
- [11:06:05] <kapowaz>
nowhere would you want the text to reflow as if it was aligned to the bottom of the image
- [11:06:13] <julianstahnke>
kapowaz: can you set text-align?
- [11:06:16] <julianstahnke>
maybe it works
- [11:06:21] * kapowaz gives that a go
- [11:06:49] <kapowaz>
well hang on, that's only for horizontal alignment isn't it?
- [11:07:07] <kapowaz>
you mean vertical-align, right?
- [11:07:08] <julianstahnke>
ah, vertical-align
- [11:07:14] <kapowaz>
and no, that doesn't do anything
- [11:07:41] <kapowaz>
some things in CSS just don't do what they say on the tin
- [11:08:00] <kapowaz>
oh wait!
- [11:08:00] <julianstahnke>
yeah, I think vertical-align only works on table cells
- [11:08:02] <kapowaz>
it works in IE7!
- [11:08:12] <kapowaz>
*** IT WORKS IN IE7 BUT NOT FIREFOX 2 OR OPERA 9! ***
- [11:08:16] * kapowaz faints
- [11:08:17] <julianstahnke>
but IE doesn't support display: table-cell on anything
- [11:09:13] <julianstahnke>
if it works in IE but not in the other browsers then it certainly must be a bug ;)
- [11:09:25] <kapowaz>
in the other browsers...?
- [11:09:26] <kapowaz>
;)
- [11:09:45] <kapowaz>
in this case, IE is behaving as I'd expect the specified attribute to
- [11:09:59] <kapowaz>
I have a containing element (an LI) and within it, another element (an A)
- [11:10:11] <kapowaz>
and the LI has vertical-align:top; and the A is flush to the top of the LI
- [11:10:35] <kapowaz>
that's behaving as expected. the question is whether or not LIs are allowed to have vertical alignment specified
- [11:10:43] <kapowaz>
I can't think why they'd not
- [11:11:04] <kapowaz>
isn't the rule of thumb that if they're in a display mode of block then they should be allowed, but not if they're inline?
- [11:13:41] <julianstahnke>
lis have display: list-item I think
- [11:14:00] <kapowaz>
oh yes, of course
- [11:14:09] <kapowaz>
actually I am inclined to think it is a bug after all
- [11:14:25] <kapowaz>
vertical-align:top; and vertical-align:middle; produce the same result in IE7
- [11:14:30] <julianstahnke>
it's at the bottom in safari as well
- [11:14:34] <julianstahnke>
and I know why
- [11:14:50] <julianstahnke>
if you have text and image, then the image normally is aligned to the baseline of the text
- [11:14:58] <julianstahnke>
and that's what's happening here
- [11:23:55] <kapowaz>
it is hideously inappropriate though
- [11:24:04] <kapowaz>
why would anyone ever want that?
- [11:24:29] * kapowaz shakes a fist at the W3C
- [11:24:36] <julianstahnke>
as if that would be of any concern to them ;)
- [11:24:40] <kapowaz>
quite.
- [11:24:52] <julianstahnke>
(what people want, not that you're shaking your fist)
- [11:24:56] <kapowaz>
aye.
- [11:25:10] <kapowaz>
so... time to ask WHAT-WG to propose a new CSS attribute
- [11:25:18] <kapowaz>
list-bullet-image or something
- [11:25:22] <kapowaz>
that behaves how a bullet would
- [11:25:39] <kapowaz>
or maybe list-image-align
- [11:27:27] <julianstahnke>
nah, that's overkill
- [11:27:44] <kapowaz>
I think the CSS3 LI::marker pseudo-selector might do what I want
- [11:27:53] <kapowaz>
since you can specify margins etc. in there
- [11:27:58] <kapowaz>
but what supports it, I wonder?
- [11:28:02] <julianstahnke>
just use a background image, multiple background images, generated content or what you just said :)
- [11:28:22] <kapowaz>
well for now obviously I'll have to consider one of those
- [11:28:25] <julianstahnke>
ha, well, your newly invented spec isn't even a draft yet ;)
- [11:29:02] <kapowaz>
but ideologically it seems pisspoor that the intended purpose of list-style-image is handicapped by this nonsensical adherence to traditional image flow
- [11:29:09] * kapowaz starts painting a banner
- [11:39:15] <kapowaz>
okay, take another look at http://www.kapowaz.net/teamphone/damnyouli.html
- [11:39:27] <kapowaz>
tell me that's not insane
- [11:39:55] <kapowaz>
so long as the image is less tall than the line-height, it will be positioned logically, i.e. at the centre of the first line
- [11:40:21] <julianstahnke>
no
- [11:40:33] <julianstahnke>
in safari, it's always at the bottom
- [11:41:03] <julianstahnke>
just try li img { vertical-align: top } or li { vertical-align: top } and see what happens
- [11:41:36] <kapowaz>
already tried that, didn't make a difference
- [11:41:46] <kapowaz>
I don't suppose I could see a screenshot of what it looks like in Safari?
- [11:42:18] <kapowaz>
the whole point about it reflowing to accomodate the image is asinine given that it allows the image to flow off the left edge of the screen (in FF2 at least)
- [11:43:04] <julianstahnke>
http://static.last.fm/depth/screenshot.png
- [11:43:39] <kapowaz>
hmm, that's essentially the same as I get in Firefox
- [11:44:22] <kapowaz>
there is no way I can bodge this to work though, IE7 is just too damned weird
- [11:44:37] <julianstahnke>
use a background image
- [11:44:41] <kapowaz>
yes :)
- [11:44:42] <kapowaz>
I shall
- [11:45:44] <kapowaz>
anyway, now I shall go to lunch
- [11:46:26] <julianstahnke>
bon appetit
- [12:36:11] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-96b720072eba3e13) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [12:37:38] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable128.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
- [12:37:38] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [12:41:37] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [12:41:37] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
- [13:12:21] * bergie (n=bergie@net-61.nrpn.net) Quit ()
- [13:20:57] * kensanata (n=alex@pdpc/supporter/active/kensanata) has joined #microformats
- [13:20:57] <jibot>
kensanata is blogging at http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
- [13:26:13] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [13:26:14] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [13:29:44] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit ()
- [13:31:42] * Frederic (n=neuro@pdpc/supporter/active/neuro) Quit ("C'est pas que j'veux pas vous voir hein, c'est juste que j'ai pas envie... et du travail")
- [13:33:10] * SignpostMarv (i=user@88-111-232-237.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
- [13:33:38] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-a8a5379a8e40060c) has joined #microformats
- [13:33:38] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [13:39:08] <kapowaz>
this might seem pedantic, but I'm wondering why the hReview spec (http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview) outlines 'Semantic XHTML Design Principles'
- [13:39:23] <kapowaz>
isn't that a bit beyond the scope of such a spec?
- [13:39:53] * kapowaz just read the phrase "XHTML is built on XML" and wondered who would be reading that document who didn't already know that...
- [13:40:19] * SignpostMarv thinks the term is "redundant", not "out of scope"
- [13:40:49] <SignpostMarv>
it seems XHTML design principles is a general microformats thing
- [13:41:29] * divoxx (n=rodrigo@201.37.108.13) has joined #microformats
- [13:41:48] <kapowaz>
well, whichever. I mean, it's giving you technical information which extends past the purpose of the document.
- [13:42:10] <kapowaz>
would it make sense then to simply refer to another wiki entry on XHTML design principles in each spec?
- [13:42:38] * SignpostMarv searches the wiki for the phrase in question
- [13:42:57] <kapowaz>
http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-xhtml-design-principles
- [13:43:15] <SignpostMarv>
there's a similar section in xfolk
- [13:43:25] <kapowaz>
it appears to use the exact same text.
- [13:43:37] <kapowaz>
so maybe just nixing that section and saying 'read about it here' would make sense?
- [13:44:06] <SignpostMarv>
brb, checking something relevant
- [13:45:21] * divoxx (n=rodrigo@201.37.108.13) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [13:45:28] <SignpostMarv>
from the wikipedia practice in this instance: {{main|semantic-xhtml-design-principles}}
- [13:45:34] <SignpostMarv>
followed by the first paragraph
- [13:45:52] * divoxx (n=rodrigo@201.37.108.13) has joined #microformats
- [13:45:52] <SignpostMarv>
XHTML is built on XML, and thus XHTML..... blah blah etc etc
- [13:47:02] * BenWard (n=BenWard@host86-143-104-226.range86-143.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
- [13:47:30] <kapowaz>
I don't follow, is that your suggested alteration?
- [13:47:36] <SignpostMarv>
assuming that template is on the microformats wiki, or can be added there, then yes
- [13:49:38] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
- [13:49:38] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
- [13:49:42] <SignpostMarv>
hell, you could template up that blurb into a single article, so it's just a case of adding in {{semantic-xhtml-design-blurb}} so the data isn't duplicated
- [13:49:59] * kapowaz isn't quite so familiar with wikipedia syntax as yourself, it appears ;)
- [13:50:13] * kapowaz just likes to cause a fuss and then pretend he doesn't know how to fix it himself, y'see :)
- [13:50:31] <kapowaz>
anyway a more pressing issue has my attention right now... where can I get the microformats logo?
- [13:50:44] <kapowaz>
I don't see it on the wiki, and it isn't obviously available on microformats.org
- [13:51:11] <boneill>
kapowaz: http://microformats.org/wiki/spread-microformats
- [13:51:21] <boneill>
SVG and PNG on there
- [13:51:26] <kapowaz>
cool
- [13:51:53] <kapowaz>
I don't know why, but that page is the 17th search result when I search for 'logo' on the wiki
- [13:52:25] <SignpostMarv>
bad SEO :-D
- [13:52:27] <boneill>
yeah loads of pages have "logo" in them
- [13:52:47] <kapowaz>
I'll create a redirect
- [13:52:55] <boneill>
I just remembered someone mailing uf-discuss with one and asking if they could put it up
- [13:53:41] <mfbot>
[[logo]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/logo * Kapowaz * (+33)
- [13:53:58] <kapowaz>
well, there you go.
- [13:54:17] <kapowaz>
hmm, doesn't quite do what I intended... it's preserving the URL
- [13:57:01] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) has joined #microformats
- [13:57:01] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [13:57:01] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
- [14:00:42] <kapowaz>
would anybody be interested in EPS and Photoshop versions of the microformats logo?
- [14:00:54] * kapowaz can't be the only one who can't edit SVG directly
- [14:01:07] <SignpostMarv>
GIMP supports SVG
- [14:01:15] * kapowaz doesn't use GIMP, however :)
- [14:01:37] <SignpostMarv>
although it probably would be good to post EPS versions to make it easier for peeps
- [14:03:21] <kapowaz>
can GIMP export to Photoshop foramt?
- [14:03:23] <kapowaz>
er, format
- [14:03:31] * SignpostMarv goes and checks
- [14:03:31] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-a8a5379a8e40060c) Quit ()
- [14:03:39] * kapowaz just downloaded a program which allegedly can export SVG as PSD and it horribly mashed the logo
- [14:05:03] * kapowaz sighs at the google results for "photoshop svg importer"
- [14:05:18] <kapowaz>
polluted with shareware toss that doesn't do anything of the sort, but has all terms on the page
- [14:05:21] <SignpostMarv>
hmm
- [14:05:30] <SignpostMarv>
Photoshop can read EPS files right ?
- [14:05:37] <kapowaz>
yes but not in editable form
- [14:05:39] <SignpostMarv>
ah
- [14:05:43] <kapowaz>
well
- [14:06:06] <kapowaz>
no wait, I'm thinking of Photoshop PDF there, yes, it can read EPS but it rasterises it immediately
- [14:06:07] * SignpostMarv has finally managed to get GIMP to boot <<<< GIMP is REALLY slow on windows
- [14:06:07] <boneill>
imports them as raster doesn't it?
- [14:06:14] <kapowaz>
boneill: yup
- [14:06:26] <kapowaz>
Photoshop PDF would be the ideal format for distribution IMHO
- [14:07:12] <SignpostMarv>
what is the earliest version of photo shop to support PDF importing/editing ?
- [14:07:20] <kapowaz>
a good question
- [14:07:32] <kapowaz>
and which version of PDF, also
- [14:07:42] * kapowaz has been using CS2 for some time
- [14:07:56] <kapowaz>
so it may not be well supported in earlier versions
- [14:07:58] * SignpostMarv uses archaic software for image editing- Ulead Photo Impact 6
- [14:08:02] <kapowaz>
nice :)
- [14:08:51] * kapowaz gives up on google
- [14:09:06] <kapowaz>
those search results were polluted with pure SEO evil
- [14:09:21] <kapowaz>
yeah, I really want to be redirected to a PC hardware reseller's homepage
- [14:09:22] * SignpostMarv downloads the SVG logo
- [14:10:38] <kapowaz>
I've got the PNG here
- [14:10:47] <kapowaz>
the weird thing is, the logo being used on the wiki isn't the same as the PNG
- [14:10:54] <kapowaz>
those white borders are being cut out
- [14:10:56] <kapowaz>
instead of shown
- [14:12:03] * kapowaz thinks he may get in touch with Remi Prevost and see if the two of us can't do some work on creating a 'definitive' version and some guidelines for use
- [14:12:17] * SignpostMarv opens SVG logo in GIMP
- [14:12:40] <kapowaz>
SignpostMarv: are you going to start extolling the virtues of GIMP? Because I'm quite, quite bored of hearing that... it's on digg every five minutes.
- [14:14:27] <SignpostMarv>
i've no idea how good GIMP is because it runs too slow on my windows box- there's like a 2-3 second lag on it when i'm using my graphics tablet
- [14:14:58] <kapowaz>
fair enough, just so long as you're not about to start proselytising
- [14:15:39] <SignpostMarv>
yes it can export to EPS
- [14:15:47] <kapowaz>
what about to PSD?
- [14:16:03] <SignpostMarv>
yep
- [14:16:04] <kapowaz>
EPS isn't really much better than PNG, except that I can choose arbitrary rastering size
- [14:16:08] <kapowaz>
ooh
- [14:16:13] <kapowaz>
would you be able to save a copy and host it up?
- [14:17:33] <SignpostMarv>
ah, no. Not got any hosting space that wouldn't collapse
- [14:17:52] <SignpostMarv>
ah
- [14:18:15] <SignpostMarv>
wait a sec- it appears GIMP rasterizes the SVG upon opening it
- [14:18:30] <kapowaz>
joy.
- [14:18:46] <SignpostMarv>
I would suggest contacting the original creator
- [14:18:55] <kapowaz>
I'm doing so :)
- [14:19:25] <kapowaz>
if I had Illustrator here it'd be fine
- [14:19:33] <kapowaz>
I've a program which can open SVG and export as PDF
- [14:19:36] <kapowaz>
Inkscape
- [14:19:43] <kapowaz>
horribly Linux-y interface, but it does the job
- [14:20:59] <SignpostMarv>
does it export as native vectoryness ?
- [14:23:30] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-6ddd29256adcfdc8) has joined #microformats
- [14:23:30] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [14:23:44] <kapowaz>
Inkscape's primary format is SVG
- [14:23:54] <kapowaz>
so yeah
- [14:24:03] <kapowaz>
I can actually do what I need with it for now, I think
- [14:24:13] <kapowaz>
since I can export to PDF then raster the PDF in a chosen size
- [14:24:23] <kapowaz>
but the layers won't be editable
- [14:24:36] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
- [14:27:24] <kapowaz>
anyway I've emailed Remi
- [14:27:33] <kapowaz>
I shall revisit the matter once he replies
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- [14:30:55] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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- [15:39:15] <kapowaz>
drewtimestwo
- [15:40:30] <Ronnos>
well, sometimes i think i'm with two also :)
- [15:40:56] <Ronnos>
like the moments i hear those voices in my head
- [15:41:33] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
- [15:41:34] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
- [15:43:10] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-6ddd29256adcfdc8) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [15:44:38] <kapowaz>
...
- [15:46:31] <pnhChris>
sometimes i wish i was 2
- [15:46:53] <pnhChris>
would get a lot more done
- [15:47:10] <kapowaz>
any prototype-aware folks in the house?
- [15:47:17] <kapowaz>
the #prototype channel is, as ever, dead as a duck
- [15:47:20] <kapowaz>
a dead duck
- [15:47:21] <kapowaz>
that is
- [15:47:29] <SignpostMarv>
lol
- [15:47:34] <tantek>
cloning and re-assimilation is quite handy indeed pnhChris
- [15:47:49] <kapowaz>
speaking from experience, eh?
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- [15:52:11] * SignpostMarv points tantek to the private message i hope got through on IRC
- [15:52:44] <tantek>
you must be identified to NICKSERV on freenode in order to send PMs
- [15:52:51] <SignpostMarv>
ah
- [15:53:18] <SignpostMarv>
I wish Trillian would tell me these kinds of things. I forgot the password I registered this nick with
- [15:54:22] <tantek>
Colloquy does the identification automatically
- [15:54:48] <kapowaz>
Trillian! Got skinz?!?!1onelolz
- [15:54:49] <boneill>
mirc does it for me when i connect
- [15:54:57] <kapowaz>
most *proper* IRC clients do it
- [15:55:18] <SignpostMarv>
i can recieve PMs you send me though right ?
- [15:55:25] <kapowaz>
sorry SignpostMarv. that's hypocritical of me after what I said about GIMP earlier.
- [15:55:38] <SignpostMarv>
hehe :P
- [15:57:18] * divoxx (n=rodrigo@201.37.108.13) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [16:02:09] <SignpostMarv>
so are you free to talk in PM Tantek ?
- [16:03:30] * drewinthehead_ (n=mclellan@tc133.proxy.ukl.yahoo.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [16:04:27] <tantek>
not really SignpostMarv
- [16:05:14] <kapowaz>
well fingers crossed on the cloning thing then.
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- [16:46:15] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [17:26:24] <rohit__>
hey, we're gonna need to turn off editing over the weekend for this sever move-operation... shoot.
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- [17:39:03] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [17:39:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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- [18:22:42] <Ronnos>
woaw
- [18:23:12] <Ronnos>
the uF wiki is going crazy or something like that :S
- [18:23:32] <Ronnos>
database errors
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- [18:28:20] * bear is now known as bear_afk
- [18:38:40] <tantek>
Ronnos, could you provide URLs where u r seeing errs?
- [18:39:18] <Ronnos>
http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page
- [18:39:49] <Ronnos>
hm, looks like there are more pages with this problem
- [18:39:50] <tantek>
hmmm... just went there and didn't see any database errors or any other problems
- [18:40:01] <tantek>
what in particular r u seeing/
- [18:40:02] <tantek>
?
- [18:40:23] <Ronnos>
well, the error message is in Dutch :)
- [18:40:30] <Ronnos>
MediaWikiBagOStuff:_doquery". MySQL gaf the foutmelding "3: Error writing file '/var/log/mysql/mysql.log' (Errcode: 30) (localhost)
- [18:41:00] <Ronnos>
syntaxerror in the database
- [18:43:41] <Ronnos>
tantek, only this page ( http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges ) works fine
- [18:49:54] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [18:49:54] <jibot>
vmarks is in NC
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- [19:24:39] <Ronnos>
tantek, working on the wiki?
- [19:35:21] * _psychic__ is now known as _psychic_
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- [19:48:45] <kingryan>
Ronnos: we're working on it
- [19:48:49] <kingryan>
filesystem problems
- [19:48:57] <Ronnos>
aha okay!
- [19:49:13] <kingryan>
have to send someone to the colo to reboot it
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- [20:20:30] <bewes1>
kingryan: where is it?
- [20:20:45] <kingryan>
actually, I don't know
- [20:20:51] <kingryan>
commercenet takes care of it for us
- [20:21:07] <kingryan>
they can't get anyone there until 4pm, though
- [20:22:37] * kingryan changes topic to 'microformats.org down || add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people || about the channel: http://microformats.org/wiki/irc || archives: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/'
- [20:39:58] <pnhChris>
but its past 4 :P
- [20:42:29] <kingryan>
not where the server resides
- [20:44:54] * tantek_ (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:45:20] <pnhChris>
mere technicality
- [20:47:22] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [20:47:22] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [20:55:02] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk (+0000/+0100 GMT)
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- [22:04:28] <hober>
whoa. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/166
- [22:04:40] * remi (i=remi@c66.203.212-11.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:04:40] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
- [22:07:53] <tantek_>
wow. "The attempt to get the world to switch to XML, including quotes around attribute values and slashes in empty tags and namespaces all at once didn't work."
- [22:07:56] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
- [22:07:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [22:11:01] <kingryan_>
wow
- [22:11:08] <kingryan_>
"The plan is to charter a completely new HTML group."
- [22:11:14] * kingryan_ is now known as kingryan
- [22:11:14] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [22:12:00] <tantek>
re: "As always, we will be insisting on working implementations and test suites." - if so, then all so-called RECs without test suites (<cough>XHTML</cough>) MUST be set back to CR status immediately. Otherwise the "as always" / "insisting" qualifiers/statements are false.
- [22:12:17] <kingryan>
blog that
- [22:12:27] <bewes1>
wow
- [22:12:53] <kingryan>
I wonder if Hixie, et al are involved
- [22:13:26] <kingryan>
no links yet http://technorati.com/search/dig.csail.mit.edu%2Fbreadcrumbs%2Fnode%2F166?sub=toolsearch
- [22:14:04] * kingryan wonders if Hixie noticed his name being dropped
- [22:14:50] <Hixie>
yes, i do, i was reading his blog
- [22:15:02] <Hixie>
he's wrong that whatwg has no process
- [22:15:07] <Hixie>
it has a very well defined process
- [22:15:12] <Hixie>
it's also a very simple process
- [22:15:14] <kingryan>
yeah
- [22:15:27] <kingryan>
maybe its too simple for him to recognize as a process?
- [22:15:29] <Hixie>
i listen to people, i make a decision, i publish, rinse, repeat.
- [22:15:43] <kingryan>
and you promise to respond to all feedback, right?
- [22:16:17] <Hixie>
yeah
- [22:16:23] <kingryan>
sounds like a process to me
- [22:16:23] <Hixie>
that promise is so gonna bite me in the ass :-P
- [22:16:37] <kingryan>
well, you don't promise *when* you'll respond
- [22:16:55] <Hixie>
yeah
- [22:17:23] <Hixie>
but i have literally a thousand or more outstanding e-mails by this point
- [22:17:31] <kingryan>
och
- [22:17:33] <kingryan>
ouch*
- [22:17:49] <kingryan>
you need help :D
- [22:19:14] <Hixie>
hehe
- [22:19:20] <Hixie>
i don't trust anyone else :-P
- [22:19:30] <bewes1>
hehe
- [22:19:33] <bewes1>
you know what they say...
- [22:19:39] <kingryan>
neither would I
- [22:19:40] <tantek>
Ian "Mulder" Hickson
- [22:19:46] <bewes1>
"if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
- [22:20:23] <bewes1>
any ideas on who/what the new group will look like, or would that be pointless speculation?
- [22:21:21] <kingryan>
DanC might be able to help :D
- [22:21:36] <kingryan>
since he's been dropping hints about this new WG for awhile, it seems
- [22:23:00] <tantek>
I'm not optimistic about the new group being able to catch up with WHATWG.
- [22:23:30] * DanC is sorta taking today off, but tunes in
- [22:23:54] <DanC>
hmm... I was expecting something like http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/166 , but I was expecting it in http://www.w3.org/QA/
- [22:24:01] <tantek>
If Hixie decides to continue WHATWG either in parallel or inspite, I know where I would put my bets on specifications that are implemented and stable first, despite the fact that he is 1000+ emails behind.
- [22:25:10] <tantek>
Until the weekly telcon + quarterly f2f mtg working group model is dropped and rethought, the rate of progress of working groups will be quite limited.
- [22:27:37] <DanC>
I find weekly telcons pretty important as sync points to go along with mailing lists.
- [22:28:23] <DanC>
and there's a time and a place for f2f meetings; we're not using them for the GRDDL WG, for instance.
- [22:28:49] <tantek>
I find sync points to be limiting by the nature of the single threaded/speaker audio medium and the requirement of temporal synchronicity.
- [22:29:19] <tantek>
weekly telcon sync points that is
- [22:29:36] <DanC>
I found the "office hours" thing pretty much essential to effective collaboration on hCard tests.
- [22:30:37] <tantek>
IRC > phone
- [22:30:38] <DanC>
could be just my work style.
- [22:30:45] <Hixie>
imho telecons are useless, face-to-face meetings more so, at least in terms of cost-per-unit-benefit.
- [22:30:58] <tantek>
IRC bandwidth > audio speech bandwidth
- [22:31:04] <tantek>
semantically speaking
- [22:31:06] <Hixie>
there is a great benefit to 2-person and 3-person meetings in person with a whiteboard
- [22:31:12] <Hixie>
but anything more is usuless
- [22:31:15] <Hixie>
useless, rather
- [22:31:17] <tantek>
though ironically requiring less bitrate bandwidth
- [22:31:19] <Hixie>
as a means of collaboration
- [22:31:43] <kingryan>
DanC: IRC office hours are much different than a formal weekly meeting
- [22:31:50] <DanC>
it's easy to do a f2f meeting poorly. but done well, they're worthwhile, in some cases.
- [22:31:56] <tantek>
voice/speech is better at conveying emotion, but that's about it
- [22:32:22] <DanC>
how so, kingryan ?
- [22:32:43] <tantek>
IRC is easier to slice in while multitasking
- [22:33:20] <Hixie>
DanC: in every case where i've been involved in a group with f2fs or telecons, the rate of progress has been dramattically -- orders of magnitude -- slower than in groups where i have had just a mailing list.
- [22:33:27] <kingryan>
the informality of office hours allows us to meet as necessary. no one is required to come. there's no organizational overhead of voting/scribe-ing/etc.
- [22:33:36] <Hixie>
(or just a mailing list and informal meetings online or in person)
- [22:33:47] <tantek>
and no participant stress of not voting/scribing/ etc.
- [22:34:04] <kingryan>
it would seem that converting the weekly telecon's to IRCcon's could lead to a productivity boost
- [22:34:06] <tantek>
makes it easier to informally participate and incrementally complete small tasks
- [22:34:24] <DanC>
Hixie, it's entirely possible that all the times when you've done email-only collaboration have been groups of like-minded, trusting people. It's easy to go fast in that situation.
- [22:34:47] <tantek>
DanC - no need to assume that without supporting evidence
- [22:34:48] <DanC>
we use IRC during telcons
- [22:34:55] <tantek>
but it is secondary
- [22:35:00] <Hixie>
DanC: the whatwg is a group of several hundred people, and believe me, they're not all like-minded :-)
- [22:35:06] <tantek>
voice still requires too much attention bandwidth
- [22:35:07] <DanC>
I didn't assume; I'm just challenging the causality
- [22:35:33] <tantek>
good point Hixie, I don't know of any W3C wg with several hundred people
- [22:35:40] <kingryan>
Hixie: however, it does seem that people trust you in whatwg
- [22:35:41] <kingryan>
:D
- [22:35:59] <kingryan>
also, the "several hundred people" can participate informally
- [22:36:00] <DanC>
there are lots of W3C mailing lists with several hundred people; e.g. www-tag
- [22:36:06] <Hixie>
DanC: but having said that, any group where the participants have different goals is going to result in a poor standard and little progress. You're far better off having two standards each targetted at the actual use cases than a compromise standard (since in the latter case neither use case will actually be well handled)
- [22:36:26] <Hixie>
at least in my experience
- [22:36:28] <Hixie>
which i admit is limited
- [22:36:32] <DanC>
true, it's better to not pretend people want the same thing when they don't
- [22:36:47] <Hixie>
(i've only been involved in a dozen or so standards so far, in six or so groups)
- [22:36:55] <DanC>
well, mostly. sometimes you just have to have a standard for railroad track size, even when people don't like each other.
- [22:37:06] <Hixie>
i disagree
- [22:37:22] <Hixie>
if you have a train that goes up a steep hill, it makes no sense to use the same gauge as a train that goes on a plain.
- [22:37:32] <Hixie>
and indeed, they don't use the same gauge.
- [22:37:42] <kingryan>
DanC: I'm not sure that analogy effectively maps to the digital realm
- [22:38:15] <Hixie>
similarly, in model trains, if you want to make a model of a single station and have a lot of room, you'll want a much bigger gauge than if you want to model an interstate on a small table.
- [22:38:19] <DanC>
fair enough; I'm happy to leave the head-butting standards efforts to somebody else in any case.
- [22:38:45] <Hixie>
:-)
- [22:38:57] <tantek>
DanC, the incidental costs of experimentation and competition among various choices in the virtual world is much lower than the same in the physical world.
- [22:38:57] <Hixie>
(the original xbl group was an example of this, btw)
- [22:40:22] <DanC>
Jon Bosak's charter for the XML WG was carefully designed to produce a standard even if the participants disagreed. I suppose the results speak for themselves, in a way. ;-)
- [22:40:49] <Hixie>
no comment
- [22:41:11] <DanC>
XML sucks in various ways, but I think it has done more good than harm, on balance.
- [22:41:22] <Hixie>
sure
- [22:41:26] <Hixie>
but it's utterly failed in some spaces
- [22:41:33] <DanC>
sure
- [22:41:55] <Hixie>
XML really needs to be split in two, imho
- [22:42:02] <Hixie>
but that's another problem altogether
- [22:42:27] <bewes1>
tantek: actually, it's better than hearing bandwidth, not speech bandwidth, right?
- [22:42:46] <bewes1>
gah... missed the timing on that :( ignore me
- [22:44:23] <DanC>
I really like the wiki/irc/mailing-list combo. But I do miss 2 things: (1) a roadmap (2) periodic checkpoints/updates to the roadmap
- [22:45:08] <tantek>
bewes1 - no, I can copy and paste into IRC, I can't copy and paste into the phone.
- [22:45:14] <DanC>
i.e. if I have a goal for hCalendar, there's no telling how much time I need to budget to get it done. Granted, nobody has a perfect crystal ball, but I think planning, with some flexibility, is useful.
- [22:45:31] <Hixie>
danc: speaking of roadmaps (and i mean this without the slightest intent at offense), what is it with wg charters in the w3c and crazy unrealistic timetables?
- [22:45:48] <tantek>
DanC, you have to have more faith in organic incremental process than top-down hierarchically planned incremental process.
- [22:46:19] <Hixie>
DanC: e.g. the webapi charter had a first public wd date of _before_ the group's start date
- [22:46:45] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [22:47:02] <DanC>
indeed, Hixie, I find that sort of thing unacceptable. Note that the groups I'm involved in keep public schedules, and we update them from time to time.
- [22:47:02] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:47:07] <tantek>
Even the word "roadmap" assumes that you can/should map out where the roads should go any appreciable point into the future.
- [22:47:22] <tantek>
As opposed to carefully following the cowpaths and natural foottrails.
- [22:47:28] <csarven>
you can have small roadmaps though :)
- [22:47:41] <tantek>
csarven, but that's not what happens in practice.
- [22:47:57] <tantek>
in practice, roadmaps typically map out roads into fields that the market couldn't care less about.
- [22:48:24] <csarven>
i supposew3c is taking a more holistic approach in most cases
- [22:49:03] <tantek>
and then people blindly believe/follow them, because they like the prefer artificial stability of an imaginary roadmap to the the natural instability of the real marketplace.
- [22:49:14] <tantek>
s/the the/the
- [22:49:25] <csarven>
true that
- [22:50:46] <csarven>
i think the problem is there is too much of an attempt to solve bunch of things as supposed to solving a specific small problem
- [22:50:55] <tantek>
or to generalize even further, people would rather have blind faith in illusion and myth, than accept the uncertainty of the natural world
- [22:51:10] <tantek>
csarven, yes, that is one problem
- [22:51:18] <Hixie>
DanC: (i just tried to send you a /msg but it looks like this network only allows /msgs if you're authenticated)
- [22:51:26] <DanC>
tantek, do you completely rule out any sort of risk aggregation at all?
- [22:51:49] <DanC>
yes, I got your /msg Hixie; I guess you can't get my replies
- [22:52:05] <DanC>
odd; you'd think it would go the other way
- [22:52:45] <Hixie>
i'm on w3's network too if that helps
- [22:53:26] <DanC>
well, I think I'm gonna go back to "day off" mode.
- [22:53:34] <DanC>
tim would pick my day off to launch that thing. oh well.
- [22:53:42] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [22:53:49] <Hixie>
heh
- [22:53:50] <tantek>
DanC, I'm not sure what you mean by risk aggregation
- [22:54:01] <DanC>
another time, I hope, tantek
- [22:54:25] <tantek>
np
- [23:00:10] <bewes1>
there are several of us that are organically committed to roadmap-ey-type things... see all the efforts on reorganizing the wiki, IA...
- [23:00:53] <tantek>
bewes1 - projects are not roadmaps
- [23:01:20] <tantek>
roadmaps typically have artificial datetimes associated with them
- [23:01:24] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
- [23:01:45] <tantek>
the efforts you describe are simply a set of projects / designs in progress that will complete somewhat organically and unpredictably
- [23:01:53] <tantek>
and with uneven spurts in progress
- [23:02:00] <bewes1>
but the value isn't in the list of dates
- [23:02:03] <tantek>
all of which is just fine
- [23:02:07] <csarven>
i wish i knew more about how w3c manages their budget
- [23:03:07] <boneill>
money -> Semantic Web
- [23:03:24] <boneill>
:)
- [23:03:28] <csarven>
im not sure if i understand that inference :)
- [23:03:49] <csarven>
if you have money, then semantic web?
- [23:03:58] <csarven>
money goes into semantic web?
- [23:04:38] <BenWard>
csarven, boneill: Perhaps that admittedly debatable inference can be reversed if we finish the currency Microformat?
- [23:04:45] <boneill>
lol
- [23:04:57] <boneill>
it's how academics work, similar to the underpants gnomes of South Park.
- [23:05:11] <boneill>
1. Semantic Web, 2. ?, 3. Profit
- [23:05:35] <boneill>
or Research -> ? -> Profit :)
- [23:05:45] <BenWard>
You have to have 4 points for that to work Ben
- [23:06:24] <csarven>
1. Something 2. Profit
- [23:06:26] <boneill>
I realised that after I'd started, now i just look silly
- [23:06:28] <BenWard>
Maybe _that's_ why we're not all writing RDF, they're missing a point.
- [23:06:32] <bewes1>
tantek: regarding speech bandwidth, I was going to point out that the I/O aren't equal bindings in this case... everyone can talk at once with no bandwidth problem. the problem resides in the fact that it becomes difficult to understand more than one thing at the same time :-)
- [23:06:57] <bewes1>
? how many "Ben"s are there in here?
- [23:07:02] * BenWard apologises for that gag and returns to lurking
- [23:07:31] <boneill>
not enough
- [23:07:37] <bewes1>
3?
- [23:08:04] <BenWard>
Sounds like it.
- [23:08:10] <bewes1>
oy
- [23:09:10] <BenWard>
There's also Ben Buchanan on uf-discuss, but I don't know if he IRCs
- [23:10:07] <BenWard>
And a few posts from a Benjamin Carlyle. Is 5 enough to have something important named after us?
- [23:11:05] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) Quit ()
- [23:11:31] <bewes1>
I should think so!
- [23:13:04] * bear is now known as bear_afk
- [23:13:44] <hober>
hBen
- [23:16:06] <BenWard>
A microformat to differentiate between people asking for 'Ben' in IRC, to prevent our IRC client's causing alerts at the wrong time?
- [23:16:24] <BenWard>
Maybe I should roll that into the hChatLog strawman…
- [23:16:38] <BenWard>
Although I think there's prior art in surnames.
- [23:16:52] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable128.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [23:18:13] <cbarrett>
BenWard: have you taken a look at the stuff I've put up on the hChat pages?
- [23:18:19] <cbarrett>
specifically ULF
- [23:19:14] * BenWard loads up the Wiki
- [23:19:25] <kingryan>
the site's down
- [23:19:28] <kingryan>
good luck
- [23:20:28] <tantek>
bewes1 - the other difference is in hysteresis and catchup
- [23:20:55] <tantek>
e.g. much easier to scroll up and scan an IRC window than to record an audio stream, rewind and attempt to catchup
- [23:21:10] <tantek>
so I can pop in and out in terms of attention/focus and still participate
- [23:21:22] <BenWard>
kingryan: So I see. Is it intentional downtime?
- [23:21:27] <kingryan>
nope
- [23:21:34] <kingryan>
filesystem corruption problems
- [23:21:48] <BenWard>
Eek.
- [23:21:52] <kingryan>
ironically, the unplanned downtime has gotten in the way of the planned downtime
- [23:24:54] * tantek notes that at least the channel is still up (thanks freenode) and still being archived (thanks Robert Bachmann).
- [23:38:50] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
- [23:45:44] <Hixie>
kingryan: commented
- [23:46:08] <Hixie>
kingryan: i'm quite impressed that i learnt of your blog post from a google alert, btw.
- [23:57:26] * KevinMarks catches up
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