IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:01:12] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc4-grim9-0-0-cust251.nott.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  2. [00:01:17] <tantek> sreynen, i think the key with the "you didn't really need to share that" type followups is to provide an alternative action to the impulse that the person had
  3. [00:02:14] <tantek> i.e. rather than email such and such (...) to the list, it would help with efficiency, community memory etc. if you could do the following (...) on the wiki to capture the information in a form that is more easily found/referenced.
  4. [00:02:46] <tantek> we're not going to be able to, nor do we necessarily want to, squash such impulses to contribute
  5. [00:02:57] <tantek> however what we can do is direct them to more positive and efficient ends.
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  8. [00:14:16] <sreynen> good idea, tantek
  9. [00:14:37] <sreynen> mailing list jujitsu
  10. [00:15:36] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  11. [00:18:54] <tantek> aikido even :)
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  17. [00:47:01] <mfbot> [[plain-xml]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-xml&diff=0&oldid=13108 * Tantek * (+2652) added Doomed section and recent articles
  18. [00:49:07] <mfbot> [[xml-on-the-web-is-dead]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/xml-on-the-web-is-dead * Tantek * (+30) add a redirect for a common phrase
  19. [00:49:58] <mfbot> [[xml-is-dead]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/xml-is-dead * Tantek * (+36)
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  26. [01:13:57] <jibot> redmonk is Steve Ivy, http://redmonk.net and is linklogging at http://deliciouslymeta.com
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  36. [01:55:18] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  51. [03:31:15] <mfbot> [[depend-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/depend-examples * DerrickPallas * (+4776)
  52. [03:31:41] <mfbot> [[depend-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=depend-examples&diff=0&oldid=13109 * DerrickPallas * (+23)
  53. [03:33:07] <mfbot> [[depend-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=depend-examples&diff=0&oldid=13110 * DerrickPallas * (+3) Portage: dev-lang/erlang -
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  56. [03:45:24] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  57. [03:45:24] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  58. [03:53:57] * OpenStandards (n=vir@ACBD0BC0.ipt.aol.com) Quit ("Leaving")
  59. [03:55:34] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13111 * Tantek * (-21) move past events to recent
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  63. [04:01:46] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  64. [04:02:12] <TylerR> Hey everyone, back from work. :)
  65. [04:06:19] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit ("Leaving")
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  67. [04:20:17] * mkaply (n=mkaply@69.91.85.26) has joined #microformats
  68. [04:20:17] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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  71. [04:48:29] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  72. [04:48:29] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  73. [04:49:38] <TylerR> Hi there bergie.
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  76. [05:04:27] <TylerR> Any exciting events transpire today?
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  85. [06:13:01] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  91. [06:42:01] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  107. [07:57:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  108. [07:57:08] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  111. [08:02:15] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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  122. [08:45:31] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  125. [09:05:39] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  126. [09:12:39] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) has joined #microformats
  127. [09:12:39] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  137. [09:45:58] <mfbot> [[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13112 * AndyMabbett * (+592) Proposal - another problem/ use-case
  138. [09:46:29] <mfbot> [[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13113 * AndyMabbett * (+2) ).
  139. [09:46:45] <mfbot> [[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13114 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Proposal - typo
  140. [09:53:47] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  141. [09:57:21] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13115 * AndyMabbett * (+3) Plant - fmt
  142. [09:58:20] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  143. [10:06:48] <mfbot> [[profile-examples-in-wild]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-examples-in-wild * AndyMabbett * (+416)
  144. [10:08:09] <mfbot> [[hcard-profile]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-profile&diff=0&oldid=13116 * AndyMabbett * (+29) Related Pages - profile-examples-in-wild
  145. [10:08:40] <mfbot> [[hcard-profile]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-profile&diff=0&oldid=13117 * AndyMabbett * (+31) Related Pages - profile-examples-in-wild
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  147. [10:09:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  148. [10:09:21] <mfbot> [[profile-uris]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=profile-uris&diff=0&oldid=13118 * AndyMabbett * (+61) Profile examples, in the wild
  149. [10:09:34] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.10) has joined #microformats
  150. [10:09:34] <jibot> veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com>
  151. [10:10:42] <mfbot> [[this-week-pending]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-pending&diff=0&oldid=13119 * AndyMabbett * (+129) Profile examples, in the wild
  152. [10:11:03] <mfbot> [[this-week-pending]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-pending&diff=0&oldid=13120 * AndyMabbett * (+1) This Week in Microformats - Pending Items - .
  153. [10:11:54] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=13121 * AndyMabbett * (+61) Tools, Test Cases and Additional Research - *Profile examples, in the wild
  154. [10:33:56] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13122 * AndyMabbett * (+29) Recent - correct date order
  155. [10:40:57] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13123 * AndyMabbett * (-9) Fix alignment of edit links ("H1" not needed if NOTOC used)
  156. [10:42:53] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13124 * AndyMabbett * (-20) Microformats related events - meanigngful link text
  157. [10:43:09] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13125 * AndyMabbett * (-1) Microformats related events - tyop
  158. [10:48:28] * Charl (n=charlvn@c1-48-10.wblv.isadsl.co.za) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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  160. [10:59:51] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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  166. [11:54:11] <trovster> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/index.php/2007/silly-microformats-question/ anyone got more suggestions for this.
  167. [11:58:00] <KevinMarks> there was an openign hours suggestion on the wiki that said use vevent
  168. [11:59:03] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#for_all_microformats
  169. [12:05:41] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  170. [12:07:57] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  171. [12:07:57] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  172. [12:12:00] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  173. [12:12:00] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  174. [12:26:10] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  175. [12:26:10] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
  176. [12:58:36] * mflogbot (n=PircBot@213.235.239.37) has joined #microformats
  177. [12:58:36] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki/irc - if you are new here, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people'
  178. [12:58:36] * Set by tantek on Sat Dec 23 18:53:06 CET 2006
  179. [12:58:37] <jibot> mflogbot is logging #microformats (http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot)
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  181. [13:02:44] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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  183. [13:21:33] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki/irc - if you are new here, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people'
  184. [13:21:33] * Set by tantek on Sat Dec 23 18:53:06 CET 2006
  185. [13:30:02] * RobertBachman2 (n=rb@N106P019.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  186. [13:30:38] <RobertBachman2> ping
  187. [13:32:50] <Charl> pong :)
  188. [13:33:05] <Charl> there are some people alive this time of day - i'm from south africa
  189. [13:34:24] <Ronnos> pong the pint
  190. [13:34:25] <Ronnos> ping
  191. [13:34:31] <RobertBachman2> I jsut wanted to test if mflogbot is logging again ;-)
  192. [13:38:35] * Kilianvalkhof is slightly alive
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  195. [13:42:50] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  196. [13:46:34] * edsu (n=esummers@208.68.173.106) has joined #microformats
  197. [13:46:34] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
  198. [13:47:34] * RobertBachman2 is now known as RobertBachmann
  199. [13:47:35] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at> from Austria (TZ: 0100)
  200. [13:51:21] <mkaply> can anyone think of a logical reason why running xslt transforms locally would be different than those same transforms run on a web page?
  201. [13:52:08] <RobertBachmann> different xslt engine?
  202. [13:52:18] <RobertBachmann> which xslt?
  203. [13:52:53] * whafro (n=whafro@c-68-50-8-52.hsd1.dc.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  204. [13:52:53] <jibot> whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
  205. [13:53:54] <mkaply> RobertBachmann: I downloaded Brian's X2V and am integrating it into Operator for debug purposes
  206. [13:54:02] <mkaply> So you can compare his results to mine.
  207. [13:54:15] <mkaply> It's working in some cases, but for instance it's not handling the title tag in microformats
  208. [13:54:19] <mkaply> really weird stuff
  209. [13:54:22] <RobertBachmann> which xslt engine do you use?
  210. [13:54:50] <mkaply> Expat. built into Firefox. I didn't think about that. He's using a server based engine
  211. [13:55:06] <mkaply> so it might be a bug in the Firefox XSLT implementation. duh
  212. [13:55:14] <mkaply> let me check tails export
  213. [13:55:16] <RobertBachmann> no exapt is an XML parser.
  214. [13:55:47] <mkaply> Same problem with tails (which uses X2V).
  215. [13:55:53] <mkaply> OK, going to check what xsLT parser they use
  216. [13:56:23] <mkaply> Transformiix
  217. [13:56:51] <mkaply> Gee. I guess I have a better answer as to why I didn't use Brian's work for Operator :)
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  223. [14:39:17] <mfbot> [[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13126 * AndyMabbett * (+82) Proposal - examples of common words in taxons
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  226. [14:42:46] * Charl (n=charlvn@c1-48-10.wblv.isadsl.co.za) Quit ("Leaving")
  227. [14:44:23] <mfbot> [[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13127 * AndyMabbett * (+34) Proposal - another example, & fmt
  228. [14:47:52] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  229. [14:47:52] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  232. [14:58:30] <jibot> whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
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  241. [15:37:04] <jibot> redmonk is Steve Ivy, http://redmonk.net and is linklogging at http://deliciouslymeta.com
  242. [16:07:15] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) has joined #microformats
  243. [16:07:15] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
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  253. [16:48:51] <bergie> http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/contact_management_and_microformats.html
  254. [16:50:14] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  255. [16:50:14] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  256. [16:52:40] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  257. [16:57:49] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-410ad7290fd1141f) has joined #microformats
  258. [16:57:49] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  259. [16:58:22] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  260. [16:58:22] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  261. [16:58:59] <mfbot> [[recipe-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13128 * JohnLeMasney * (+153) Suggested fields for inclusion -
  262. [17:00:07] * NatBat (n=natalie@southill.torchboxapps.com) Quit ("Leaving")
  263. [17:04:16] <mfbot> [[recipe-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13129 * JohnLeMasney * (+183) Scope -
  264. [17:15:24] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
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  267. [17:28:36] * danja (n=danja@host207-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  268. [17:28:36] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  269. [17:32:43] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  270. [17:34:12] <redmonk> any of you guys have a blogger account? i need to test atom feed autodiscovery
  271. [17:35:32] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  272. [17:39:51] <TylerR> Hi everyone.
  273. [17:43:33] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd085.rhi.hi.is) has joined #microformats
  274. [17:43:33] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  275. [17:43:33] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  276. [17:44:25] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  277. [17:44:25] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  278. [17:44:46] * DerrickPallas (n=chatzill@209.237.236.227) has joined #microformats
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  282. [18:01:34] <jibot> mmc_ is Michael McCracken and can be found online at http://michael-mccracken.net/
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  289. [18:13:41] <Ronnos> hm, there is a hReview format, but where is the hPreview?
  290. [18:16:09] * nfolson (n=nfolson@CPE-76-177-177-204.natsoe.res.rr.com) Quit (Client Quit)
  291. [18:18:29] <mfbot> [[geo-cheatsheet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=13130 * AndrewKuchling * (+1) Notes -
  292. [18:19:11] <mkaply> redmonk: still there?
  293. [18:22:41] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
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  304. [18:32:45] <DerrickPallas> It's all about hPostview
  305. [18:32:56] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  306. [18:33:07] <DerrickPallas> We need a format that allows us to tell us what we have just looked at.
  307. [18:33:07] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  308. [18:33:16] <briansuda> mkaply, i emailed you RE: Firefox ABBR@title issues
  309. [18:35:53] <mkaply> briansuda: Just saw. Tx. I'm talking with one of the Mozilla XSLT folks now
  310. [18:36:08] <briansuda> let me know what transpires
  311. [18:36:14] <mkaply> briansuda: That explains why I was seeing such weird results when I compared my stuff against yours :)
  312. [18:36:27] <Ronnos> hey briansuda, do you know if there is something like an hPreview?
  313. [18:36:58] <briansuda> to Preview something? what are you trying to accomplish?
  314. [18:37:10] <briansuda> the rating in hReview is optional, so you can use that and just not rate it
  315. [18:37:40] <Ronnos> well, on my website i started to review books, but there are new books comming up, and some of them i want to preview
  316. [18:38:04] <briansuda> well, what semantic data would you want to capture about these previewed books?
  317. [18:38:20] <Ronnos> well, release date for sure
  318. [18:38:28] <Ronnos> that can be an hCal event?
  319. [18:40:49] <Ronnos> i know it's almost the same as a hReview
  320. [18:41:10] * charles_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  321. [18:43:26] <mfbot> [[recipe-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13131 * AndyMabbett * (+126) Scope - calorific values
  322. [18:43:55] <Ronnos> the place where you previewed it? as an hCard?
  323. [18:44:30] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  324. [18:44:42] <briansuda> hm...
  325. [18:45:11] <Ronnos> well, the only difference would be the release date to indicate it's not in stores yet
  326. [18:45:30] <briansuda> then you are reviewing an event in the future
  327. [18:45:46] <Ronnos> something like that :S
  328. [18:45:51] <briansuda> hReview can have a dtpublished of today and talk about an event in the future
  329. [18:47:06] <Ronnos> so the only problem would be the format name :)
  330. [18:47:45] <briansuda> why?
  331. [18:48:14] <Ronnos> because it's not possible to review something that did not happen yet?
  332. [18:48:47] <briansuda> no, you can review an upcoming event.
  333. [18:48:58] <mkaply> well, you're reviewing the preview copy of the book/game/record
  334. [18:49:00] <briansuda> that is exactly what a pre-VIEW is doing
  335. [18:49:21] <briansuda> you are not rating it... that would be impossible to rate it without it happening
  336. [18:49:42] <mkaply> is type in hreview a list of types or can you add your own?
  337. [18:50:17] <mfbot> [[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13132 * AndyMabbett * (+230) Proposal - more
  338. [18:50:22] <Ronnos> the wikipage shows the following options: product | business | event | person | place | website | url.
  339. [18:50:32] <Ronnos> but i think its extensible?
  340. [18:50:51] <bewest> sounds pretty simple: hreview with release date in the future
  341. [18:50:59] <briansuda> it is an enumerated list
  342. [18:51:33] <tantek> Ronnos - see hreview-faq re types
  343. [18:51:33] <mkaply> briansuda: Nothing jumps out at the XSLT guy. How hard would it be to do a reduced testcase ? :)
  344. [18:51:52] <Ronnos> thnx tantek
  345. [18:52:11] <briansuda> mkaply, we can do a reduced test case, what do you have inmind
  346. [18:52:47] <mkaply> briansuda: Just something simple that runs against an abbr and tries to get the title. To see if that is the problem.
  347. [18:53:21] <mkaply> Using the same method you are using. Everything else seems to work locally. The only problem I see is that no titles are being extracted from abbrs
  348. [18:53:26] <briansuda> we might have a test case for that already in hg - let me check
  349. [18:54:12] <briansuda> how about this one: http://hg.microformats.org/tests?f=2bf906aaa71d;file=hcard/25-geo-abbr.html
  350. [18:55:36] <Ronnos> bewest, my problem is, if i ad hCalendar to the hReview, it looks like i'm reviewing (or previewing, depending on the date) the event, in stead of the item releasing on that date
  351. [18:55:50] <mkaply> I was more referring to the reduced XSLT to try to see what transformiix is doing wrong.
  352. [18:56:34] <briansuda> ah, hm.. ok
  353. [18:58:01] <briansuda> do you want me to email you something?
  354. [18:58:29] <mkaply> briansuda: If you could that would be awesome. I know nothing of XSLT. Basically just looking for a "here's an XSLT that when run against this ABBR shows the problem"
  355. [18:58:40] <bewest> Ronnos: why?
  356. [18:58:46] <briansuda> ok, give me a few minutes.
  357. [18:58:48] * bewest needs to look at the hreview stuff
  358. [18:59:06] <bewest> I don't see why putting a release date in a feature all of a sudden makes it appear that the review is of an event instead of the item being reviewed
  359. [18:59:17] <bewest> oops, "in the future" not "in a feature"
  360. [18:59:37] <Ronnos> maybe i messing thing up, need some coffee :)
  361. [19:00:11] <Ronnos> i don't know why i did, but i was thinking that i only could place an hCalendar event in "item"
  362. [19:00:54] <bewest> ah, I see. because there is not datereleased field
  363. [19:01:09] <bewest> I wonder what hproduct is doint
  364. [19:01:11] <bewest> doing
  365. [19:02:10] <Ronnos> it's describing a product
  366. [19:02:26] <Ronnos> who made it, how it looks, where you can find it on the web
  367. [19:03:15] <bewest> yes, but the fact that you're previewing an item carries the same semantics for hreview. the only difference is that the release date is in the future
  368. [19:03:22] <bewest> release dates are a property of a product, not a review
  369. [19:03:30] <Ronnos> thats true
  370. [19:03:41] <bewest> so you're best bet is to continue using hReview
  371. [19:03:56] <bewest> and help out the hProduct guys with their work ;-)
  372. [19:03:58] <Ronnos> and use the include pattern in the "item"
  373. [19:04:00] <Ronnos> :P
  374. [19:04:10] <bewest> because it looks like hProduct has a ways to go
  375. [19:04:11] <Ronnos> *in/for
  376. [19:04:18] <bewest> and I'm sure extra help would be appriciated
  377. [19:04:33] <bewest> especially since you have examples ready to be published
  378. [19:04:38] <bewest> you could be giving them great feedback
  379. [19:04:39] <Ronnos> love to help, the problem is that i think in dutch :P
  380. [19:04:45] <Ronnos> lols
  381. [19:04:53] * DerrickPallas was just joking.
  382. [19:05:27] <bewest> Ronnos: the guys involved with that are Aaron Gustafson, Adam Craven, and Craig Cook
  383. [19:05:34] * DerrickPallas thinks hMood would have made that clear.
  384. [19:07:27] <bewest> Ronnos: in fact, you're input would be very helpful, because my brief glimpse of their work does not include the release date
  385. [19:07:42] <bewest> Ronnos: so you would need to present a clear case why including release date is a good idea
  386. [19:08:04] <Ronnos> ow wooow... you indicate the date a product was released with hCalendar, you include that date in hProduct, the product was made by someone, that would be an hCard contact, you can review it with hReview
  387. [19:08:09] <Ronnos> *yoinks*
  388. [19:08:30] <bewest> dunno if hcard is necessary to link the hreview to the product
  389. [19:08:44] <bewest> there will probably be a way to directly link an hreview and hproduct without needing to go through who made it
  390. [19:08:57] <bewest> that's what I would expect anyway
  391. [19:09:35] <bewest> but currently, there is no mechanism to specify when a product was (or will be released)
  392. [19:10:03] <bewest> it would clearly use hcalendar, but the mechanism that specifies that the hcalendar signifies the release date hasn't yet been suggested
  393. [19:10:14] <bewest> so if you want that, I suggest you bring it up on the mailing list or their wiki
  394. [19:10:17] <Ronnos> bewest, what is the best way to start contributing?
  395. [19:10:20] <bewest> be sure to include your own use case for doing so
  396. [19:10:43] <bewest> and it would also help if you could find some websites where people publish reviews for future products
  397. [19:10:47] <bewest> maybe engadget or something?
  398. [19:11:03] <bewest> Ronnos: the best way to contribute is to share your need to publish something
  399. [19:11:03] <Ronnos> amazon.co.uk does it
  400. [19:11:09] <bewest> with the people creating the format
  401. [19:11:31] <bewest> mailing list, wiki, are good forums, as is the IRC chat room and a blog
  402. [19:12:21] <bewest> if it's not obvious that your need would contribute to the overall use case, you may be asked to gather examples of other people publishing in the same way you intend to
  403. [19:12:26] <bewest> eg, amazon, like you just mentioned
  404. [19:12:33] <bewest> can you find a specific example of this on amazon?
  405. [19:12:54] <bewest> any specific example from as many sites as you can would be extremely helpful
  406. [19:12:56] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  407. [19:12:56] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  408. [19:13:18] <TylerR> Morning all.
  409. [19:13:24] <bewest> morning
  410. [19:13:27] <briansuda> mkaply, emails away
  411. [19:13:34] <mkaply> briansuda: you rock
  412. [19:13:48] <briansuda> i just hope it is useful
  413. [19:13:51] <mkaply> briansuda: Of course you couldn't test if it failed in Firefox transformiix, could you :)
  414. [19:14:05] <briansuda> walk me through it and i can (maybe)
  415. [19:14:39] <mkaply> briansuda: I might have to write a quick extension for it. Give me a few min
  416. [19:14:42] * iand_ (n=iand@talis.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  417. [19:15:08] <Ronnos> well, amazon.co.uk displays the books for preordering, and in some cases the discribe the book and it's contents. It looks like they've disabled the review option
  418. [19:19:42] <bewest> I think engadget does reviews of products that aren't released to market yet
  419. [19:20:34] <mfbot> [[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13133 * Ronnos * (+420) Random Thoughts -
  420. [19:20:46] <Ronnos> bewest, how about gaming sites!
  421. [19:20:54] <Ronnos> they preview (and even rate) all the time
  422. [19:20:55] <bewest> Ronnos: it helps to list specific URLs :-) gaming sites are a great idea
  423. [19:20:59] <bewest> good idea
  424. [19:21:59] <ianloic> "The message's content type was not explicitly allowed" WTF?
  425. [19:22:17] <Ronnos> eh, bewest, where can i list those examples?
  426. [19:22:27] <bewest> the examples page
  427. [19:22:34] <bewest> product-examples
  428. [19:23:02] <bewest> if you collect some URLs, I'll help you out a bit by telling you which bits are the good parts to explain
  429. [19:23:15] * mmc_ (n=mike@64.149.121.122) Quit ()
  430. [19:23:49] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
  431. [19:27:32] <Ronnos> bewest, have a look at this:
  432. [19:27:34] <Ronnos> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_/202-2502647-9229460?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=microformats&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
  433. [19:27:42] <Ronnos> it's a good one ;) about Microformats :)
  434. [19:27:57] <Ronnos> it's a product page, and the release date is in the future
  435. [19:28:12] <Ronnos> indicating it's not available yet
  436. [19:29:41] * termie (i=andy@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/termie) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  437. [19:32:41] <mfbot> [[User:Ronnos]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Ronnos&diff=0&oldid=13134 * Ronnos * (+6)
  438. [19:36:18] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) Quit ("Leaving")
  439. [19:41:20] <bewest> Ronnos: excellent
  440. [19:42:18] <Ronnos> i wonder why the hProduct format isn't fineshed yet, it seems to me like an important one?
  441. [19:42:31] <Ronnos> "finished"
  442. [19:42:33] <Ronnos> :)
  443. [19:43:05] <bewest> Ronnos: it's kind of like cooking
  444. [19:43:14] <bewest> Ronnos: what happens if you rush food?
  445. [19:43:23] <Ronnos> ;)
  446. [19:43:49] <bewest> so one thing to take notes on is simply the list of properties being published
  447. [19:43:57] <bewest> we don't necessarily need to look at the source for that
  448. [19:44:03] <bewest> it's pretty obvious in this case
  449. [19:45:01] <Ronnos> true
  450. [19:45:09] <bewest> name of book, name of author, release date, availability status (unavailable), availability options (used vs new), list price, selling price, medium (paperback)....
  451. [19:45:12] <bewest> can you see any others?
  452. [19:46:00] <Ronnos> picture/image?
  453. [19:46:17] <KevinMarks> you know, for existing formats should looj at google checkout
  454. [19:47:24] <Ronnos> bewest: http://videogames.netscape.com/story/2006/10/03/halo-3-available-for-pre-order-on-amazoncom
  455. [19:47:44] <bewest> yes, picture/image good catch
  456. [19:47:48] <bewest> hold on
  457. [19:47:51] <bewest> not done with amazon yet
  458. [19:48:00] <bewest> time to look at the source
  459. [19:49:03] <bewest> interesting
  460. [19:49:04] <bewest> <h1 class="breadCrumb"> "microformats" </h1>
  461. [19:49:18] <bewest> ah, that's just the search
  462. [19:49:49] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  463. [19:49:53] <bewest> yes, there are some more properties published which aren't apparent unless you look at the source
  464. [19:49:59] <bewest> they are also publishing category information
  465. [19:50:06] <bewest> this product is in the category of "books"
  466. [19:50:09] <Ronnos> yup
  467. [19:50:10] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  468. [19:50:18] <bewest> so in their publishing system, category is a property of the item
  469. [19:50:27] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  470. [19:50:31] * ianloic (n=ian@71.5.56.162.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  471. [19:51:09] <bewest> class="imageColumn"
  472. [19:51:17] <bewest> some semantic markup for declaring the image
  473. [19:51:36] <bewest> <span class="srTitle">Microformats: Empowering Your Markup for Web 2.0</span>
  474. [19:52:09] <bewest> <span class="bindingBlock">(<span class="binding">Paperback</span> - 26 Mar 2007)</span>
  475. [19:53:28] <bewest> ok lunch is here
  476. [19:53:32] <Ronnos> http://www.atomicbooks.com/results.php?ep=49&cat=49
  477. [19:53:39] <bewest> Ronnos: this is the kind of information to be collected on the -examples
  478. [19:53:40] <bewest> page
  479. [19:53:46] <Ronnos> the provide a date for the scheduled arrivel
  480. [19:53:48] <Ronnos> arrival
  481. [19:53:51] <bewest> neat
  482. [19:53:52] <Ronnos> ah okey
  483. [19:53:54] <Ronnos> thnx
  484. [19:54:03] <bewest> thanks
  485. [19:54:04] <bewest> :-)
  486. [19:54:11] <bewest> add as much as you can to the examples page
  487. [19:54:12] <bewest> :-)
  488. [19:55:29] <Ronnos> okay, gonna try to make myself usefull :)
  489. [19:57:41] * mmc_ (n=mike@client65-104.sdsc.edu) has joined #microformats
  490. [19:59:34] <sreynen> i'd like to get the membership of the -admin list documented in the wiki so we can stop seeing hyperbole like "secret police"
  491. [20:01:13] <sreynen> This FAQ seems like the best place to put a list: http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q:_Who_controls_microformats.3F
  492. [20:02:05] <sreynen> does anyone mind if i start a list there, without including anyone who hasn't already publicly declared their participation on the -admin list?
  493. [20:02:33] <sreynen> tantek, kingryan, bewest, briansuda, KevinMarks?
  494. [20:02:36] <briansuda> you can add me to the list, i'm fine withthat
  495. [20:03:11] * nstrich (n=nostrich@host86-137-41-248.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  496. [20:04:52] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host86-137-41-248.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  497. [20:10:58] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=13135 * Ronnos * (+227)
  498. [20:11:36] <TylerR> What's everyone up to this afternoon/evening/morning?
  499. [20:15:24] <mfbot> [[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=13136 * ScottReynen * (+249) Q: ''Who controls microformats?'' -
  500. [20:16:29] <sreynen> okay, i listed the people who have already declared their membership in public. please edit the wording if you see any problem with it
  501. [20:17:32] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@206-248-153-124.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  502. [20:20:30] * danja (n=danja@host207-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  503. [20:24:14] * TylerR (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) has left #microformats
  504. [20:26:35] <bewest> sreynen: yeah do it
  505. [20:26:44] <bewest> oh too late
  506. [20:26:45] <bewest> ummm
  507. [20:26:47] <bewest> good job
  508. [20:26:58] <sreynen> heh, thanks
  509. [20:27:07] * amanuel (n=amanuel@integrity.niagara.com) has joined #microformats
  510. [20:27:13] * amir (n=Miranda@80.238.134.134) has joined #microformats
  511. [20:28:00] <bewest> what's interesting to me is that some people appear to think that evidence that shows that a technique is working is also evidence to change the technique
  512. [20:31:12] <sreynen> joe's issue seems to come down to andy's messages being delayed
  513. [20:32:03] <sreynen> i think the list is used too much for real-time back and forth anyway, but that's a separate issue entirely
  514. [20:32:09] <bewest> hmm
  515. [20:33:18] <bewest> sreynen: did you catch my suggestion on the admin list to frame the group's efforts around capturing techniques and then only when needed creating new formats?
  516. [20:33:40] <bewest> it seems what most people are requesting on the list is how to do something, for which the building blocks are already present
  517. [20:33:51] <bewest> however, they understand this to be, primarily, a formats group
  518. [20:33:54] <bewest> and so they ask for a new format
  519. [20:34:03] <bewest> instead of asking how to accomplish a certain feat
  520. [20:34:14] <sreynen> yeah, i think that's a good point
  521. [20:34:21] <Ronnos> ^^
  522. [20:34:29] <bewest> the entire process is centered around creating new formats
  523. [20:34:36] <bewest> which is why so many people ask for them
  524. [20:35:09] <Ronnos> bewest, adding yourself to the Autors part on an example page if you added some examples... is that allowed? Or does it serve another purpose
  525. [20:35:20] <bewest> Ronnos: yes, please add your self
  526. [20:35:42] <Ronnos> bewest, thnx
  527. [20:36:15] <bewest> Ronnos: did you see earlier how I was starting to look at the actual markup?
  528. [20:36:29] <bewest> Ronnos: do you think you could add some similar markup analysis to the wiki page?
  529. [20:36:30] <Ronnos> yeah, i supply class information
  530. [20:37:31] <Ronnos> i name the sort of information they give, and also include the class name they use to markup the information
  531. [20:37:42] <bewest> ah, nice
  532. [20:38:16] <bewest> I was especially curious, becuase there is a claim that amazon is publishign this stuff in an "unstructured" fashion
  533. [20:38:27] <bewest> whereas when I took a look at it, there was lots of semantic encoding
  534. [20:39:23] <bewest> this is a good sign, even if hProduct class names end up being different, because it shows a receptivity and aptitude on the part of publishers, and confirms the need to "pave that cowpath"
  535. [20:40:24] <Ronnos> right
  536. [20:40:52] <Ronnos> a lot of sites are including a big list of product features
  537. [20:42:25] <Ronnos> and a lot of features are depending on the kind of product
  538. [20:43:00] <bewest> hmm, yes
  539. [20:43:13] <Ronnos> features, type, value
  540. [20:43:30] <bewest> I've had some ideas on that, but I wanted to run my idea past DanC first
  541. [20:43:38] <bewest> should probably just try it and see what happens
  542. [20:43:50] <Ronnos> make a kind of dummy
  543. [20:44:47] <Ronnos> almost every product has a Specification list
  544. [20:45:28] <bewest> be careful :-)
  545. [20:45:49] <bewest> don't "fall down the rabbit hole" trying to come up with a general abstract mechanism of specifying structured data
  546. [20:46:08] <bewest> the reason we list what each publisher publishes is so we can find out which properties are the most common
  547. [20:46:16] <Ronnos> uhuh
  548. [20:46:22] <bewest> we'll be satisfied when we can produce a list that conforms to 80/20 guideline
  549. [20:46:47] * danja (n=danja@host207-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  550. [20:47:37] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=13137 * Ronnos * (+322)
  551. [20:48:33] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=13138 * Ronnos * (+15)
  552. [20:54:32] <mkaply> briansuda: are you ready?
  553. [20:54:49] <briansuda> ok, for a few minutes, then i have to find some food
  554. [20:54:54] <briansuda> :)
  555. [20:55:00] <mkaply> briansuda: It's a case sensitivity issue with your transform.
  556. [20:55:19] <mkaply> In operator I clone the node and firefox is uppercasing all the ABBR tags
  557. [20:55:21] <mkaply> abbr tags
  558. [20:55:21] <briansuda> abbr vs. ABBR
  559. [20:55:24] <mkaply> yep
  560. [20:55:39] <briansuda> ok, XML is case-sensitive
  561. [20:55:44] <briansuda> and all the elements are lower-case
  562. [20:55:49] <briansuda> so this sounds like an issue with FF
  563. [20:56:05] <briansuda> (all the elements in XHTML)
  564. [20:56:21] <mkaply> briansuda: except that microformats can be in HTML, so should your transform be case sensitive?
  565. [20:56:39] <mkaply> he strange part is everything else about your transform is working.
  566. [20:56:40] <briansuda> hm. well i run everything through TIDY to make it XHTML
  567. [20:56:52] <briansuda> so it will be converted from <P> to <p>
  568. [20:58:43] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  569. [20:58:52] <mkaply> but this still doesn't make sense in some way
  570. [20:59:04] <briansuda> what specifically?
  571. [20:59:06] <mkaply> the original node was correct. I clone the node. I never serialize it
  572. [20:59:27] <mkaply> so is Firefox cloneNode really modifying the nodes to uppercase the nodeName? That would be crazy
  573. [21:00:09] <mkaply> yep. That's what it is doing
  574. [21:00:52] <briansuda> i think you found your bug
  575. [21:01:19] <mkaply> cool.
  576. [21:01:51] <briansuda> :)
  577. [21:02:14] <briansuda> feel free to email me if you find anything else, and/or need more test cases
  578. [21:02:20] <briansuda> i'm going to find some food
  579. [21:02:30] <mkaply> briansuda: I really appreciate your help
  580. [21:02:44] <briansuda> not a problem, that's what i'm here for
  581. [21:03:00] <briansuda> it would be silly for me to sit around IRC and not do anything
  582. [21:05:19] * therealadam (n=thereala@66.196.247.89) Quit ()
  583. [21:05:30] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd085.rhi.hi.is) Quit ("to hungry to type anymore")
  584. [21:06:37] * tantek is still behind 100+ emails in the microformats-discuss list from the past few days. Anyone know why the sudden burst?
  585. [21:08:37] <Ronnos> tantek: the moderation complaint...
  586. [21:08:45] * mkaply realizes that Firefox is hosed
  587. [21:08:52] <mkaply> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox:3.0_DOM_Case_Sensitivity
  588. [21:09:17] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  589. [21:10:07] * mkaply wonders if brian would consider changing X2V to handle uppercase :)
  590. [21:17:44] <tantek> Ronnos, I just read that thread and it had only 11 items. There's got to be more going on to cause the 100+ emails.
  591. [21:17:50] <tantek> in a matter of days
  592. [21:19:04] <Ronnos> tantek, is the google group in sync with the mailinglist?
  593. [21:19:25] <kingryan> the google group is not run by the list admins
  594. [21:19:28] <kingryan> don't trust it
  595. [21:19:30] <tantek> what google group?
  596. [21:19:57] <Ronnos> http://groups.google.com/group/microformats/
  597. [21:23:08] <bewest> tantek: several format proposals, along with several questions about hcard, along with several questions about parsing rel-tag
  598. [21:26:04] * Jonbo (n=Jonbo123@adsl-074-229-245-180.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  599. [21:28:54] * danja (n=danja@host207-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  600. [21:29:51] * danja (n=danja@host207-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  601. [21:31:27] <tantek> how odd
  602. [21:31:31] <tantek> the google group
  603. [21:31:40] <kingryan> messina set it up
  604. [21:31:52] <DerrickPallas> weird
  605. [21:31:58] <DerrickPallas> or at least redundant
  606. [21:32:10] <bewest> I remember him doing it
  607. [21:32:25] <Ronnos> well, to me it looks up to date?
  608. [21:32:36] <DerrickPallas> a fork in progress
  609. [21:34:24] <kingryan> an accidental fork
  610. [21:34:33] * kingryan wonders if there's a way to block it :D
  611. [21:35:07] <Ronnos> thats easy, just call the boys at google ^^
  612. [21:35:43] <kingryan> I'm sure it's easier than that
  613. [21:35:57] <Ronnos> :)
  614. [21:44:33] * edsu (n=esummers@208.68.173.106) Quit ("hasta lasagna")
  615. [21:50:00] <kingryan> hey mkaply: is it possible to automate the tests you run against operator?
  616. [21:50:06] <Ronnos> bedtime, i call it a day
  617. [21:50:32] * TylerR (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) has joined #microformats
  618. [21:51:19] <TylerR> Hey folks!
  619. [21:52:24] <TylerR> What's shake'in?
  620. [21:52:34] <mkaply> kingryan: most of the tests I run are "go to this page" "see if the action works"
  621. [21:52:50] <mkaply> But I'm working on the ability to pass a microformat to the parser and see if it validates
  622. [21:52:51] <kingryan> not automatable?
  623. [21:53:06] <mkaply> in the sense that you can look at the javascript output and see if the values are what you expect
  624. [21:53:36] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has left #microformats
  625. [21:53:44] <mkaply> I've never done firefox UI automation specifically.
  626. [21:53:54] <mkaply> What exactly are you looking to see from a testing perspective?
  627. [21:54:17] <kingryan> well, I'm looking to start automating testing of the major mf parsing implemenations
  628. [21:54:27] <kingryan> so that we can compare them side-by-side
  629. [21:54:55] <bewest> kingryan: taking cues from the OWL efforts?
  630. [21:55:00] <kingryan> yeah
  631. [21:55:03] * bewest nods
  632. [21:55:14] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has joined #microformats
  633. [21:55:22] <kingryan> I'm motivated 'cause i'm looking at x2v right now and realize that it's failing a number of tests
  634. [21:55:43] <kingryan> if someone pushes something that doesn't pass, mf-dev should get an email
  635. [21:55:46] <bewest> mkaply: read Dan Connolly's blog for an analysis on how OWL did testing
  636. [21:56:23] <bewest> mkaply: http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/171
  637. [21:56:28] <bewest> then take a look at the OWL testing pages
  638. [21:58:09] <mkaply> I think using the parser I'm working on it could be automated. Essentially you would have a page that had the expected values. You would invoke the parser under the covers on a given microformat. It would return the data.
  639. [21:58:23] <mkaply> Then you could compare the expected output vs. what we report in the JS structure.
  640. [21:58:32] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has left #microformats
  641. [21:58:34] <bewest> sounds like a good start, yeah
  642. [21:58:36] <mkaply> Essentially all Operator is doing is parsing the microformat into a Javascript representation of the mf
  643. [21:58:59] <mkaply> I'm actually in the process of working with Andy Mitchell to try to create a standardized JS parser that anyone could use
  644. [21:59:19] <bewest> that's good...
  645. [21:59:33] <bewest> what if you want to compare your results to an implementation that isn't in javascript?
  646. [21:59:43] <kingryan> JSON!
  647. [21:59:49] <bewest> :-)
  648. [21:59:58] <bewest> http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js
  649. [21:59:59] <mkaply> well you could take the JS output and transform it to whatever you want.
  650. [22:00:03] * kingryan starts chanting
  651. [22:00:11] <TylerR> kingryan and crew: Congrats on WTF.
  652. [22:00:13] <bewest> mkaply: assuming certain things about the js output, correct?
  653. [22:00:22] <kingryan> thanks TylerR
  654. [22:00:47] <mkaply> bewest: yeah. We have a definition file that in theory shows exactly how the JS output will be
  655. [22:00:54] <mkaply> properties/subproperties - which will be arrays/objects/strings
  656. [22:01:03] <bewest> mkaply: I thought your definition mixed code and data
  657. [22:01:11] <mkaply> bewest: it does.
  658. [22:01:30] <bewest> isn't that a problem for comparing output with non JS implementations?
  659. [22:01:49] * danja (n=danja@host207-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  660. [22:02:14] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.9/0000000000]")
  661. [22:02:39] <mkaply> bewest: well, you can compare the data nodes only
  662. [22:04:02] <bewest> mkaply: so it sounds like it might be worth decoupling the implementation from the data representation
  663. [22:04:39] <mkaply> bewest: we thought about that at first, but that's not useful for validation
  664. [22:04:51] <mkaply> your template doesn't say which fields are ISO dates for instance
  665. [22:05:24] <mkaply> what does enumerable mean in your context?
  666. [22:06:06] <bewest> knowing what a representation means is irrelevant in terms of comparing like representations
  667. [22:06:14] <bewest> that's something for the parser
  668. [22:06:21] <bewest> enumerable...
  669. [22:06:22] <bewest> I forget
  670. [22:06:27] * bewest should have added documentation
  671. [22:06:37] <bewest> let me see if I can mind read myself
  672. [22:06:43] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
  673. [22:08:08] <mkaply> the structure you present comes very close to what our parser outputs.
  674. [22:08:08] <bewest> enumerable means that the possible values are enumerated
  675. [22:08:19] * Atamido_ (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  676. [22:08:30] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  677. [22:08:42] <bewest> mkaply: yeah, form somewhat correlates to function :-)
  678. [22:08:49] <mkaply> ok. I saw lots of enumerable false except on additional-names and and the honorific stuff
  679. [22:09:02] <bewest> mkaply: but my concern is mixing code and data
  680. [22:09:04] <mkaply> how do you specify that a property can only be singular or multiple?
  681. [22:09:09] <mkaply> bewest: I totally understand.
  682. [22:09:20] <bewest> what do you mean?
  683. [22:09:38] <bewest> I think you don't need to specify singular or multiple
  684. [22:09:42] <bewest> because rules for parsing indicate it
  685. [22:10:22] <mkaply> See when I'm thinking template, I'm thinking someone can give me a template and I will know how the details of how to parse the microformat.
  686. [22:10:29] <mkaply> Knowing what is a child of what isn't terribly useful.
  687. [22:10:41] <mkaply> My thinking (and I could be wrong)
  688. [22:11:11] <mkaply> was that we could create a scenario where someone could tag up a definition file with very little javascript (the getters only handle exceptions and specialized types)
  689. [22:11:32] <mkaply> and with that definition file have full support for that microformat.
  690. [22:11:58] <mkaply> so there are two things here. There is a JSON template which can be used for simple validation
  691. [22:12:21] <mkaply> and there is what we are calling a definition file which handles all the details of taking any given microformat and turning it into our internal JS structure
  692. [22:12:45] <mkaply> See in my mind, you can'
  693. [22:12:48] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  694. [22:12:59] <bewest> a property could be added to the meta field to describe ocurrence rules
  695. [22:13:02] <mkaply> See in my mind, you can't represent nickname as one field in a structure. because it could be an array.
  696. [22:13:20] <mkaply> and if you represent it as one field, then you need a separator, and then things go wonky :)
  697. [22:13:29] <bewest> maybe ocurs: "singleton" | "multiple"
  698. [22:13:45] <bewest> an array?
  699. [22:13:58] <bewest> it evaluates to a single value
  700. [22:14:26] <mkaply> no, I can have six different nicknames. IT shouldn't evaluate to six nicknames separated by a space
  701. [22:14:48] <bewest> the evaluation itself is procedural
  702. [22:15:07] <bewest> are people publishing six nicknames?
  703. [22:15:37] <mkaply> well no :)
  704. [22:15:46] <DerrickPallas> I just use semi-colons.
  705. [22:15:52] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=13139 * Glasser * (+26)
  706. [22:15:59] <DerrickPallas> Who has a semi-colon in their nickname?
  707. [22:16:06] <mkaply> but when I'm communicating with web services, I might only be able to pass the first instance of something.
  708. [22:16:08] <DerrickPallas> If you do, I don't want to be your friend.
  709. [22:16:14] <mkaply> So I need to be more specific.
  710. [22:16:41] <DerrickPallas> then pass $list.split(";",2)
  711. [22:17:06] <mkaply> but what about my friend B;ob ? :)
  712. [22:17:24] <bewest> whose name is B;ob?
  713. [22:17:27] <bewest> I think he's got bigger problems
  714. [22:17:59] <DerrickPallas> Yeah, everyone mistakes him for B:ob.
  715. [22:18:15] <mkaply> there are people that use colons in their nicknames though. that's funny
  716. [22:18:26] <DerrickPallas> Poor old "ob", the B namespace never treated him right.
  717. [22:18:38] <mkaply> but seriously. There is a way to separate things.
  718. [22:18:45] <mkaply> What I can do is have a separate getter array.
  719. [22:19:01] <mkaply> then the main structure would have no code.
  720. [22:19:21] <bewest> so, is there a unit test with more than one nickname?
  721. [22:19:32] <DerrickPallas> It isn't a singleton.
  722. [22:19:40] <DerrickPallas> It's also very easy to deal with.
  723. [22:19:43] <mkaply> most things aren't singletons
  724. [22:19:48] <DerrickPallas> It's an implementation detail.
  725. [22:19:48] <bewest> nicname is singleton
  726. [22:19:48] <mkaply> in an hcard
  727. [22:19:53] <DerrickPallas> Is it?
  728. [22:19:58] <DerrickPallas> Oh, then just pull the first one.
  729. [22:20:00] <bewest> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Singular_vs._Plural_Properties
  730. [22:20:01] <DerrickPallas> Simple.
  731. [22:20:16] <bewest> For properties which are singular (e.g. "N" and "FN"), the first descendant element with that class should take effect, any others being ignored. For properties which can be plural (e.g. "TEL"), each class instance should create a instance of that property.
  732. [22:20:17] <DerrickPallas> There is a test for people with multiple n.
  733. [22:20:29] <mkaply> not N, NICKNAME
  734. [22:20:38] <bewest> right, that's what I was saying the evaluation is procedural
  735. [22:20:43] <bewest> but nickname is a property of N
  736. [22:21:05] <mkaply> actually it's not
  737. [22:21:08] <mkaply> it stands alone
  738. [22:21:18] <bewest> hmm
  739. [22:21:19] <bewest> oh wait
  740. [22:21:20] <bewest> Note: the hCard may have additional explicit "nickname" property values in addition to the implied nickname.
  741. [22:21:23] <kingryan> mkaply is right
  742. [22:21:44] * mkaply hates implied nickname. One of the banes of my existence
  743. [22:21:53] <DerrickPallas> Which of the sub-properties of n are singluar?
  744. [22:22:24] <bewest> so is there an hcard test with multiple nicknames?
  745. [22:22:30] * mkaply goes to check
  746. [22:22:49] <mkaply> there is no nickname test.
  747. [22:22:56] <bewest> anyway, mkaply, you raise an interesting issue
  748. [22:22:57] <bewest> however,
  749. [22:23:39] <mkaply> Our goal is to create something that is useful to the microformat community, so I want as much communication as humanly possible.
  750. [22:23:45] <bewest> if you are communicating with some interoperable web service, it would be advisable to pass messages in a representation that is intended to be interoperable, rather than a representation which is the result of a transformation from one that was interoperable
  751. [22:23:52] <DerrickPallas> Singular properties: "FN", "N", "BDAY", "TZ", "GEO", "SORT-STRING", "UID", "CLASS".
  752. [22:23:58] <DerrickPallas> Nickname is not a singular property.
  753. [22:24:10] <bewest> right
  754. [22:24:40] <DerrickPallas> And nickname is not a property of n.
  755. [22:24:51] <mkaply> bewest: But my point is I would much rather have an internal representation of a plural property that keeps the pluraliry. So I can determine the separator based on the service I am giving the data to
  756. [22:24:54] <kingryan> someone want to write a nickname test?
  757. [22:25:06] <DerrickPallas> Which is why it confuses me that you imply it iff n is not there.
  758. [22:25:26] <mkaply> DerrickPallas: basically they are saying if fn is one word, it's probably a nickname.
  759. [22:25:26] <DerrickPallas> Does that mean that n:=nickname if !n and nickname?
  760. [22:25:30] <mkaply> Which personally I think is stupid
  761. [22:25:38] <bewest> http://diveintomark.org/projects/greasemonkey/hcard/tests/
  762. [22:25:52] <DerrickPallas> No, I understand what they're saying.
  763. [22:25:57] <bewest> http://diveintomark.org/projects/greasemonkey/hcard/tests/3-1-3-nickname-2-plural.xhtml
  764. [22:26:06] <DerrickPallas> I think the wiki has a typo..
  765. [22:26:21] <kingryan> DerrickPallas: where?
  766. [22:26:24] <DerrickPallas> Under Implied "nickname" Optimization
  767. [22:26:26] <DerrickPallas> Similar to the implied "n" optimization, if "FN" and "ORG" are not the same, and the value of the "FN" property is exactly one word, and there is no explicit "N" property, then:
  768. [22:26:27] <DerrickPallas> should be
  769. [22:26:30] <mkaply> Especially since I haev an Indian friend whose name is one word - Ravisankar
  770. [22:26:32] <DerrickPallas> Similar to the implied "n" optimization, if "FN" and "ORG" are not the same, and the value of the "FN" property is exactly one word, and there is no explicit "NICKNAME" property, then:
  771. [22:26:33] <mkaply> That's not his nickname
  772. [22:28:19] * mkaply likes marks tests much better than the microformats.org tests. Ah a next button
  773. [22:29:11] <DerrickPallas> kingryan: do you think that's an error on the wiki?
  774. [22:29:19] <bewest> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/palmagent/hcardTest.html?rev=1.13&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
  775. [22:29:37] <bewest> same construct
  776. [22:30:03] <bewest> <ul class="nickname">  <li>Jim</li>  <li>Jimmy</li> </ul>
  777. [22:30:18] <kingryan> DerrickPallas: error, no. bad idea, maybe
  778. [22:30:59] <mkaply> that's invaid
  779. [22:31:12] <mkaply> the nickname would be JimJimmy
  780. [22:31:49] <bewest> hmmm
  781. [22:31:51] <mkaply> How do I view that HTML as HTML?
  782. [22:31:54] <DerrickPallas> That's not the question.
  783. [22:31:56] <DerrickPallas> The wiki says:
  784. [22:32:08] <bewest> the wiki doesn't make any sense to me on this subject
  785. [22:32:15] <bewest> it looks like a copy-paste gone wrong
  786. [22:32:17] <DerrickPallas> imply that nickname:=fn under the following circumstances
  787. [22:32:24] <kingryan> bewest, DerrickPallas : url?
  788. [22:32:27] <DerrickPallas> * fn != org
  789. [22:32:34] <DerrickPallas> * fn contains a single word
  790. [22:32:38] <DerrickPallas> * n is not given
  791. [22:32:42] <bewest> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Implied_.22nickname.22_Optimization
  792. [22:32:56] * DerrickPallas believes that the last condition should be NICKNAME, not N
  793. [22:32:57] <mkaply> yes. that is exactly what it says. I actually understand the logic.
  794. [22:33:27] <kingryan> DerrickPallas: I think you're probably right
  795. [22:33:33] <DerrickPallas> I'll edit it then.
  796. [22:33:39] <bewest> well, that's one possibility
  797. [22:33:45] <mkaply> wait, doesn't it say that nickname is added to the list of nicknames?
  798. [22:33:49] <bewest> there is another possibility as well, correct?
  799. [22:33:55] <bewest> mkaply: that's a different question
  800. [22:33:58] <kingryan> wait, no
  801. [22:34:03] <mkaply> that implies that nickname has been set, so that last part can't be incorrect
  802. [22:34:09] <kingryan> "# Parsers should handle the missing "N" property by implying empty values for all the "N" sub-properties. "
  803. [22:34:13] <bewest> mkaply: it says that there can be additional nicknames, we're questioning a different part
  804. [22:34:14] <kingryan> it just says N should be empty
  805. [22:34:43] <mkaply> The reason they are bring N into the equation is because they are saying that it's not a "real name" becuase there is no n
  806. [22:34:47] <mkaply> That's always been my assumption
  807. [22:34:54] <kingryan> we need to ask tantek about this
  808. [22:34:58] <DerrickPallas> ok
  809. [22:35:00] <kingryan> he's the one who wrote it
  810. [22:35:30] <mkaply> http://corkd.com/wine/view/8001
  811. [22:35:42] <mkaply> I believe this is an example scenario in this case. Take a look at these contacts
  812. [22:35:56] <DerrickPallas> what's really weird about it is that nickname is not a sub-property of n
  813. [22:36:46] <mkaply> DerrickPallas: but n is important in this situation. I believe they are saying is that with no N, it must be a nickname or they would have put info in N
  814. [22:36:53] <DerrickPallas> mkaply: we're not discussing implementation, we're discussing why the standard is written that way
  815. [22:37:25] * amanuel (n=amanuel@integrity.niagara.com) Quit ()
  816. [22:38:05] <bewest> so the evaluation of nickname is: 1.) the implicitly optimized value consisting of the value of n-optimization when fn and org are not the same and n is absent and fn is one word - AND - 2.) the additional explicitly listed nicknames
  817. [22:38:58] <mkaply> clearly that wasn;t the intent
  818. [22:39:02] <mkaply> or this line wouldn't be present
  819. [22:39:03] <mkaply> Note: the hCard may have additional explicit "nickname" property values in addition to the implied nickname.
  820. [22:39:06] <bewest> that's what the spec indicates
  821. [22:39:16] <bewest> that is # 2 in my list
  822. [22:39:45] <bewest> the spec says implied nickname is always a part of evaluating nickname
  823. [22:39:47] <mkaply> sorry, I read it wrong. I thought you were going back to the "they meant nickname not N"
  824. [22:39:53] <bewest> which is why I listed it as number 1
  825. [22:39:55] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@206-248-153-124.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit ("Leaving")
  826. [22:40:55] <bewest> oops there's an otherwise on #1
  827. [22:41:09] <bewest> if fn is one world, you use the n-optimization
  828. [22:41:20] <bewest> no
  829. [22:41:25] <bewest> if fn is one word you use fn
  830. [22:41:39] <mkaply> This so shouldn't be in the spec. Just because an fn is one word doesn't mean it is nickname
  831. [22:41:50] <mkaply> That's very eurocentric
  832. [22:42:01] <bewest> if fn is not one word, and fn isn't the same as org, you do the n-optimization and use that value for nickname
  833. [22:42:20] <bewest> mkaply: should or shouldn't be is a different question than "what does this mean"
  834. [22:42:38] <bewest> to determine the apropriateness, we have to determine what it means first
  835. [22:42:56] <kingryan> mkaply: yeah, avoid passing judgement, we're just trying to decipher it
  836. [22:43:15] <mkaply> bwest: I thought the nickname optimization only ever happens if fn is exactly one word.
  837. [22:43:40] <bewest> nickname optimization always happens
  838. [22:43:55] <bewest> the procedure differs depending on whether or not fn is one word along with several other conditions
  839. [22:44:01] <mkaply> if if "FN" and "ORG" are not the same, and the value of the "FN" property is exactly one word, and there is no explicit "N" property, then
  840. [22:44:15] <mkaply> Those are the conditions to cause the nickname optimization
  841. [22:44:25] <bewest> no
  842. [22:44:31] <bewest> those are the conditions to evaluate nickname optimization
  843. [22:44:34] <DerrickPallas> Ryan, can you ask Tantek about the conditionals?
  844. [22:44:55] <bewest> mkaply: "Note: the hCard may have additional explicit "nickname" property values in addition to the implied nickname." means nickname always has an implied value
  845. [22:45:13] <kingryan> DerrickPallas: tantek's around in IRC
  846. [22:47:11] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) has joined #microformats
  847. [22:47:36] <mkaply> so if it said "to an implied nickname" it would be OK?
  848. [22:51:34] <bewest> so just to restate my interpretation: values for nickname = impliedNickname + explicitlyListedNicknames
  849. [22:53:25] <bewest> impliedNickname = if(fn != org && noExplicitValue(n)) { if(isOneWord(fn) { return fn; } else { return optimizeN(); }
  850. [22:55:06] <DerrickPallas> Where does it state that the implied nickname is N?
  851. [22:55:18] <mkaply> I'm sorry, I hate to be dense but I don't understand where you are getting the else { return optimizeN(); } from the spec
  852. [22:55:54] <DerrickPallas> It's not there.
  853. [22:58:17] * mkaply must depart
  854. [22:58:18] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-410ad7290fd1141f) Quit ("Leaving")
  855. [22:59:25] <bewest> ah
  856. [22:59:34] <bewest> impliedNickname = if(fn != org && noExplicitValue(n)) { if(isOneWord(fn) { return fn; } else { /* no return */ optimizeN(); }
  857. [23:00:20] <bewest> so... it doesn't make any sense to me
  858. [23:00:22] <bewest> hehehe
  859. [23:01:02] <DerrickPallas> Statement one says to pretend like nickname is fn. Statement two says nothing about nickname, only about N.
  860. [23:01:56] <DerrickPallas> It is identical to the statement in "Organization Contact Info" which alreadys says that empty N means all the sub properties are empty.
  861. [23:02:04] <bewest> yes, that's what my pseudocode does
  862. [23:03:17] <DerrickPallas> From now on, I'm going to write "optimizeBen" in all my code and make a note someplace in another file that optimizeBen should evaluate to the empty string if it evaluates to the empty string.
  863. [23:03:18] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  864. [23:03:24] <DerrickPallas> And it always will.
  865. [23:03:26] <DerrickPallas> :)
  866. [23:03:41] <DerrickPallas> At least whenever it gets used.
  867. [23:03:51] <bewest> actually, it seems to me that it just says when no nickname is provided, when fn and org are not the same, when N is absent, let nickname equal N optimization, but without org. Also, let N = n optimization
  868. [23:04:01] <bewest> I agree it's a silly way to say things
  869. [23:04:25] <DerrickPallas> It doesn't say anything about no nickname being provided.
  870. [23:04:33] <bewest> fine
  871. [23:04:35] <DerrickPallas> It says the opposite, that other nicknames might be provided.
  872. [23:04:38] <bewest> yes yes
  873. [23:06:21] <bewest> nickname is all the nicknames provided plus an implied nickname described by "when fn and org are not the same, when N is absent, let nickname equal N optimization, but without org. Also, let N = n optimization. Also since n is absent, it's empty."
  874. [23:06:24] <bewest> lol
  875. [23:07:44] <DerrickPallas> Instead of just saying the word empty, I'm going to say "flibbertygibbet" from now on; where currently, flibbertygibbert is always the empty string, with the caveat that it may change in the future.
  876. [23:08:00] <DerrickPallas> Just to make things more confusing.
  877. [23:08:28] <bewest> well, which is more confusing? the way I stated it or the way it's stated in the spec
  878. [23:08:32] <bewest> either way, it doesn't make any sense
  879. [23:08:42] <bewest> especially if they mean the same thing
  880. [23:08:52] <tantek> yes the "N is empty" condition re: nickname is confusing, and probably was unintended
  881. [23:09:01] * tantek wakes up to a big scrollback
  882. [23:10:23] <DerrickPallas> They superficially and coincidentally mean the same thing.
  883. [23:10:46] <bewest> that's all I was going for :-)
  884. [23:11:10] <DerrickPallas> Oh, golly, how could I stay mad at you?
  885. [23:22:07] * coolblade2 (n=gray-@67.161.248.221) has joined #microformats
  886. [23:25:48] * TylerR (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) Quit ("Leaving")
  887. [23:28:08] <bewest> DerrickPallas also just pointed out there's no conformance guidelines for parsing of adr
  888. [23:29:14] <DerrickPallas> If I see an adr with no sub-properties, I'm just going to use the flattened value of the element.
  889. [23:30:16] <bewest> yeah, I guess I'm leaning that way too
  890. [23:31:14] <DerrickPallas> If it has sub-properties, do I only use the flattend values of the sub-property elements?
  891. [23:31:24] * whafro (n=whafro@dsl092-150-081.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  895. [23:58:14] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats

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