IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  6. [00:51:12] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
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  9. [00:55:56] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
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  19. [01:52:28] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  22. [01:56:41] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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  30. [02:36:54] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  34. [02:45:02] <jibot> bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  35. [02:45:06] <bewest> ping tantek
  36. [02:45:12] <tantek> pong
  37. [02:45:21] <bewest> tantek: have you seen the the digital-signing stuff?
  38. [02:45:27] <bewest> they put up a format without following the process
  39. [02:45:33] <bewest> not sure what the apropriate correction is
  40. [02:45:36] * tantek is still behind on the mailing list
  41. [02:45:45] <tantek> are they on the list?
  42. [02:45:47] <tantek> or the channel?
  43. [02:45:54] <bewest> http://microformats.org/wiki/digital-signatures
  44. [02:45:59] <tantek> if not, deletion is a perfectly fine action to take
  45. [02:46:11] <bewest> they are on the list
  46. [02:46:38] <tantek> on the -new list?
  47. [02:46:44] <bewest> -discuss
  48. [02:47:24] <tantek> I usually put a big bold header of text at the top saying that the effort has failed to follow the process, and direct them to do so, and restart with a *-examples page etc.
  49. [02:47:37] <tantek> Perhaps we should have some documentation on what to do when a newbie doesn't follow the process. :)
  50. [02:47:44] <bewest> yeah
  51. [02:48:03] <bewest> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-February/008663.html
  52. [02:50:03] <tantek> we need to add a mention of the process to the how-to-play page
  53. [02:50:04] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play
  54. [02:52:21] <anselxyz> possibly a n00b question: has anyone dealt with marking up company names and relating them back to stock symbols or something similar? i'd like to embed some machine-useful information in my markup.
  55. [02:52:48] <bewest> anselxyz: sounds pretty good
  56. [02:52:50] <anselxyz> i poked around a bit, but haven't found anything in obvious places
  57. [02:55:05] <bewest> anselxyz: http://microformats.org/wiki/stock-symbol-examples
  58. [02:55:12] <bewest> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-May/004180.html
  59. [02:56:06] <anselxyz> aha.. thx
  60. [02:57:54] <anselxyz> looks like it hasn't gone very far yet.
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  62. [03:04:28] <mfbot> [[User:AnselHalliburton]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:AnselHalliburton * AnselHalliburton * (+207)
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  64. [03:09:49] <bewest> anselxyz: right looks like plenty of room for growth
  65. [03:10:02] <bewest> they started off correctly by finding sites listing stocks
  66. [03:10:16] <bewest> but the URLs are missing, and it would be nice to also show the html used
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  85. [04:08:43] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  88. [04:13:35] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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  98. [06:24:14] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  102. [06:51:20] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  118. [11:14:26] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  123. [12:10:44] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  129. [12:40:07] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  130. [12:40:09] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  131. [12:40:53] <tommorris> I've just put up an angry, hate-filled (heh) rant about microformats: http://blogs.opml.org/tommorris/2007/02/10#microformats80Rdf20
  132. [12:41:15] <tommorris> Please come and tell me how much of a heretic I am.
  133. [12:45:01] <bengee> positioning RDF against MFs is just plain wrong and doesn't help anyone
  134. [12:45:34] <tommorris> I don't think I am. I'm saying that microformats don't go far enough for domain-speicific information.
  135. [12:45:36] <bengee> but maybe the post is meant to be ironic and I just didn't get it from flying over it
  136. [12:45:54] * briansuda sees tommorris will be attending barcamplondon2
  137. [12:46:05] <tommorris> Yep, are you, Brian?
  138. [12:46:10] <briansuda> yup
  139. [12:46:14] <tommorris> Cool.
  140. [12:46:15] <bengee> also the 0-5 example is flawed as hReview allows you to specify a custom range
  141. [12:47:17] * bengee usually describes eRDF as the longtail MFs which doesn't imply the silly "versus" argument
  142. [12:48:43] <tommorris> Are there any examples of specifying custom ranges for rating?
  143. [12:48:55] <bengee> best/worst
  144. [12:49:22] <tommorris> Oh, okay. Yeah, I see it. I'll update my post (can't do much about the picture though)
  145. [12:50:15] <bengee> I just wrote a MF2RDF converter this week, I found the tricky part was not the ranges but the qualified ratings (Food: 4/5)
  146. [12:50:42] <briansuda> bengee have you been working on hReview?
  147. [12:51:01] <briansuda> i have some XSLT to convert hReview->RDF Review (it is still touch-and-go)
  148. [12:51:53] <bengee> cool, how do you handle the qualified ratings?
  149. [12:52:55] <briansuda> i don't
  150. [12:52:55] <tommorris> Erm, you probably need to reify the RDF. So you'd have:
  151. [12:53:11] * bengee uses danja's review vocab and generates separate reviews (with same reviewer and reviewed item) for each qualified rating
  152. [12:53:30] <briansuda> there is an Ontology for Reviews which doesn't talk about ratings for specific tags. that is a different domain
  153. [12:53:43] <bengee> tommorris, I tried to re-use existing vocabs
  154. [12:53:56] <briansuda> bengee, that is the same one i am using.
  155. [12:54:17] <tommorris> microformat:ratingInstance a hreview:rating; hreview:best "x"; hreview:worst "y"; hreview:rating "z".
  156. [12:54:41] <tommorris> Dunno. Would have to think about that.
  157. [12:55:30] <bengee> I ended up with ~20 different RDF vocabs, but at least I didn't have to make up new terms
  158. [12:55:30] <tommorris> The ideal solution would be to create specific ontologies for each microformat, but declare lots of equivalences.
  159. [12:56:14] * bengee thinks re-using deployed vocabs as far as possible is the better solution
  160. [12:56:45] <tommorris> So you'd have a namespace like "http://microformats.org/rdf/hreview", but the OWL file would list all the equivalences, and there could be an open process (wiki or mailing list) to find equivalences.
  161. [12:56:48] <bengee> esp. given that the GRDDL WG has the opportunity now to publish recommended mappings
  162. [12:57:38] <bengee> you'll be able to generate term URIs from the XMDPs, once they are published, tommorris
  163. [12:57:55] <bengee> works for XFN, for example
  164. [12:59:08] <tommorris> I think the thing that annoys me most is a lot of people I know are dismissing RDF *because of* microformats. They know think that they can just add a few microformats and they have done all they need to do to move towards the data web.
  165. [12:59:31] <tommorris> s/know/now
  166. [13:00:07] <bengee> hmm, not sure I'd disagree with them
  167. [13:00:17] <bengee> as you said: 80/20
  168. [13:00:24] <briansuda> microformats have always been VERY specific, they will never fix or encode all the data, only the very common stuff.
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  171. [13:03:46] <bengee> they cover several things that many RDFers haven't really touched yet, though (e.g. votelinks, or hlisting)
  172. [13:04:40] <bengee> so they may even help to direct the RDF crowd a little more towards practical/everyday use cases
  173. [13:04:57] <tommorris> Indeed. One thing I'm struggling with is - I can't see the point in XOXO.
  174. [13:06:38] <bengee> a note re RDFa, I personally don't like it at all, but they are trying to get it out of the xhtml2-only corner a little bit
  175. [13:06:47] <briansuda> it is a sort of pre-JSON in HTML
  176. [13:06:47] <briansuda> you can use it to encode and pass arrays around in HTML
  177. [13:06:47] <briansuda> it also has its uses as an aternative to OPML
  178. [13:07:30] <tommorris> The problem I have is that it doesn't actually tell us anything. It says "btw, this is an outline". But that doesn't really tell us anything.
  179. [13:08:17] <tommorris> We really need a way of specifying "this is a feed list" or "this is a reading list", or "this is an outline of the content on this page".
  180. [13:08:38] * bengee thinks there is a "blogroll" class IIRC
  181. [13:09:16] <briansuda> not to sound like a broken record, but you NEED or do you WANT specifics?
  182. [13:09:54] <tommorris> Well, I want them. But without them, I'm struggling to see what advantage xoxo has over just plain old lists.
  183. [13:10:36] <briansuda> i think there was talk that any old list is by default XOXO
  184. [13:11:52] <tommorris> The problem is, if you are parsing them, you are probably parsing them for a purpose. You might want to extract a list of RSS feeds from them. But just being told "this is xoxo" doesn't tell a parser what it ought to do with them.
  185. [13:12:19] <tommorris> It doesn't really convey any information at all, except that the author of the HTML page decided to call this an outline.
  186. [13:12:43] <briansuda> :) but that's ok, because then you can create lists which are both at the same time.
  187. [13:13:07] * bengee experimented with MF+eRDF a little recently (my parser creates a merged triple set). One nice use case for XOXO can be to put it in a typed eRDF container that provides the necessary outline context
  188. [13:13:12] <briansuda> if i want to extract OPML it is a XOXO with <a> elements with TYPES attributes of application/rss
  189. [13:13:46] <briansuda> you could have a <ul> which is your 'attention' and some are RSS some are PDF some are MP#
  190. [13:14:03] <briansuda> that is one list for attention, but could also be 3 other Feeds as well
  191. [13:14:26] <briansuda> XOXO is used in conjunction with OTHER attributes to give more meaning
  192. [13:14:46] <briansuda> this is similar to that massive rel-tag scope discussion.
  193. [13:15:07] <briansuda> If you are concerned or have Questions about XOXO you should add them to the WIKI so we can document the Q&A for others
  194. [13:15:37] <tommorris> Oh, no, I've found the right page on the wiki. The actual useful content is on the xoxo-brainstorming page, not the spec
  195. [13:16:52] <briansuda> ok, feel free to add comments there as well.
  196. [13:17:12] <briansuda> the Spec is probably PRE microformats.org, so it is not in the same shape/vein as things like hCard
  197. [13:18:04] <tommorris> I've just taken a look at Dave Winer's OPML Editor. It actually has a component in there that can turn OPML in to XOXO...
  198. [13:19:25] <briansuda> you can convert any XML to XOXO
  199. [13:19:29] <briansuda> i have an XSLT for that
  200. [13:19:56] <briansuda> if it is in HTML then you automatically have several 'viewers' of you data
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  202. [13:20:30] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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  204. [13:22:46] <bengee> tommorris, just read the context/trigger comment for your post, do you know mindswap's filmtrust project?
  205. [13:23:12] <bengee> they are doing movie ratings combined with IMDB data
  206. [13:25:12] <bengee> but they have a special agreement with them and can't really make the movie data public IIRC...
  207. [13:26:49] <tommorris> That's interesting. I'll look in to that.
  208. [13:27:16] <tommorris> I found a really good screen-scraper for IMDB recently too. :)
  209. [13:30:05] <tommorris> I've got an idea - there's gotta be a good way of putting movie attention data out there. i.e. "I've seen this film". That way, organising movie nights would be made more interesting. "Show me a movie that my friends might all like but haven't seen using algorithm X"
  210. [13:34:36] <briansuda> there is an attention.xml (which isn't a microformat) then AMPL(?) which tryies to do the same thing
  211. [13:34:57] <briansuda> while i agree you're idea is cool, it might be a very edge case :)
  212. [13:35:11] <briansuda> we have done something similar with hReviews and XFN on Corkd
  213. [13:35:25] <briansuda> you can find a wine that your friends have give 3 or higher stars too
  214. [13:35:55] <briansuda> so you could negate that, and say, from this list X, show me all my friends that have NOT reviewed this movie
  215. [13:36:01] <briansuda> (that doesn't always mean they haven
  216. [13:36:05] <briansuda> 't seen it_
  217. [13:36:08] <tommorris> Well, yeah. Social networking with attention data about preferences could provide interesting opportunities.
  218. [13:36:32] <tommorris> Every time I see a movie from now on, I'm adding the IMDB URL to my FOAF file.
  219. [13:37:05] <tommorris> Become the change you want to see etc.
  220. [13:37:08] <briansuda> with what predicate?
  221. [13:37:28] <tommorris> rdf.opiumfield.com/movie/0.1/seen
  222. [13:38:18] <briansuda> OK, that is very specific :)
  223. [13:38:41] * bengee wonders if the semantics of that term includes any form of drugs...
  224. [13:39:13] <briansuda> seenOn, is that a timestamp or a state-of-mind
  225. [13:41:06] <tommorris> Well, I could always have "seenSober" and "seenUnderTheInfluenceOfSubstancesNotTraditionallyAssociatedWithSobriety"
  226. [13:41:06] <tommorris> Or again, we could reify the statement to include a statement about what drug you were on when you watched it.
  227. [13:42:03] <briansuda> at the moment things like hReview sort of ASSUME that if you are reviewing it, then you must have also seen it
  228. [13:45:18] <tommorris> That sort of assumption is fatal. One only has to listen to the radio for a few hours to hear people review books they obviously haven't read.
  229. [13:48:30] <briansuda> :)
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  248. [14:46:53] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
  249. [14:55:43] * Azath0th (n=Azathoth@tyr.no-panic.at) Quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  253. [14:56:22] <jibot> Azathoth is the blind brainless mad god at the center of the universe. http://www.hplovecraft.com/creation/bestiary.htm
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  271. [15:58:12] * danja chuckles at logs : more semweb discussion over here than on #swig
  272. [16:25:32] <KevinMarks> tommorris: you're missing the point there
  273. [16:25:44] <KevinMarks> (lagged response)
  274. [16:26:08] <KevinMarks> hReview has composable tags and ratings
  275. [16:26:31] <KevinMarks> so you can represent all those attributes as either tags or rated tags
  276. [16:31:33] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
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  278. [16:43:22] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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  293. [18:36:24] <mfbot> [[history-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-examples&diff=0&oldid=13412 * JeremyBoggs * (+159) HTML-based Timelines -
  294. [18:46:24] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  295. [18:51:28] <mfbot> [[User:JeremyBoggs]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:JeremyBoggs * JeremyBoggs * (+28)
  296. [18:56:39] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-159-30-0.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
  297. [18:58:03] <mfbot> [[faq-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-fr&diff=0&oldid=13413 * ChristopheDucamp * (+300) Q : ''Qui contrôle les microformats '' - ajout liste administrateurs de la gouvernance
  298. [18:59:01] <tommorris> KevinMarks: sorry for even more lagged response. Thanks for that, I'll post that.
  299. [19:02:55] * sixtus42 (n=sixtus@e178210243.adsl.alicedsl.de) Quit ()
  300. [19:03:49] <mfbot> [[books-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books-fr&diff=0&oldid=13414 * ChristopheDucamp * (+434) updating : add neogeography in english and John Allsop
  301. [19:10:09] <mfbot> [[books]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books&diff=0&oldid=13415 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) neogeography -> link corrected
  302. [19:12:40] <mfbot> [[books-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books-fr&diff=0&oldid=13416 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1)
  303. [19:16:15] <mfbot> [[book-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-examples&diff=0&oldid=13417 * JeremyBoggs * (+130) Examples -
  304. [19:17:01] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=13418 * ChristopheDucamp * (+189) Signature digitales à traduire
  305. [19:24:31] <mfbot> [[to-do-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do-fr&diff=0&oldid=13419 * ChristopheDucamp * (+276) mise à jour : discussions en cours sur la localisation d'un site francophone
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  307. [19:30:07] <mfbot> [[to-do-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do-fr&diff=0&oldid=13420 * ChristopheDucamp * (-61)
  308. [19:36:31] * Kilianvalkhof (i=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
  309. [19:45:36] <mfbot> [[user-interface-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface-fr&diff=0&oldid=13421 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1568) Portabilité Réseau Social - ajout portabilité réseau social FAQ avec OpenID
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  315. [19:58:35] <xtof> http://jyte.com/cl/jyte-should-integrate-microformats-votelinks - done
  316. [20:01:07] <xtof> should I add that on http://microformats.org/wiki/vote-links#Implementations ?
  317. [20:01:48] <KevinMarks> yes
  318. [20:03:17] <xtof> thanks kevin.
  319. [20:06:29] * redmonk is now known as redmonk_yardwork
  320. [20:09:45] <mfbot> [[vote-links]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links&diff=0&oldid=13422 * ChristopheDucamp * (+227) Brian Ellin implemented votelinks on jyte within less than 30 minutes
  321. [20:12:20] <mfbot> [[vote-links-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links-fr&diff=0&oldid=13423 * ChristopheDucamp * (+268) ajout jyte : implémentation en moins de 30 minutes
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  324. [20:48:33] <mfbot> [[examples-in-the-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=examples-in-the-wild&diff=0&oldid=13424 * T1mmyb * (+0) Examples in the Wild - sp (microformats)
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  340. [21:57:22] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13425 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) web direction north moved to recent
  341. [21:59:11] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
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  343. [22:01:41] <vbgunz> I want to jump on the microformats train. Are only the most common global microformats listed under "specifications" on the wiki OR are there more standard microformats not listed there?
  344. [22:02:14] <vbgunz> I see drafts but would like to stick with the most common mf's for now
  345. [22:03:26] * Kilianvalkhof (i=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  346. [22:11:02] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=13426 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1276) sync'd
  347. [22:11:23] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=13427 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) typo
  348. [22:29:14] <KevinMarks> start with the specifications
  349. [22:34:49] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13428 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1069) updated : ajout contact pages jaunes, jyte, anpe et besoin d'aide pour canal+
  350. [22:36:47] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host86-140-70-111.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  351. [22:37:04] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13429 * ChristopheDucamp * (+177) Banques -
  352. [22:37:08] <JamieKnight> hiya,
  353. [22:40:46] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  354. [22:42:27] <tantek> vbgunz, most common microformats are listed on the home page of http://microformats.org/
  355. [22:42:33] <tantek> right column
  356. [22:42:55] <JamieKnight> hiya tantek
  357. [22:44:19] <vbgunz> tantek: I see them, it is such a small list. I love the idea and am reading up on XFN at the moment. this all sounds really good.
  358. [22:44:42] <vbgunz> it's almost perfect
  359. [22:45:54] <tantek> vbgunz, start with just implementing one or two microformats on your site, the ones that seem the most obviously applicable/useful to you. from there you will learn and be better able to figure out what additional microformats to implement.
  360. [22:46:01] <tantek> hi JamieKnight
  361. [22:46:18] * tantek is taking off to get some breakfast ;)
  362. [22:46:25] <vbgunz> tantek: thank you :)
  363. [22:46:27] <xtof> hi tantek, hi all... not really used to irc. Tell me if this assertion is stupid :
  364. [22:46:31] * JamieKnight wishs tantek some good food
  365. [22:46:31] <xtof> http://jyte.com/cl/openid-should-integrate-hcard-2
  366. [22:47:16] <tantek> xtof, makes sense to me
  367. [22:47:29] * tantek (n=tantek@206.47.9.3) Quit ()
  368. [23:04:58] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13430 * ChristopheDucamp * (-3) Banques -
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  370. [23:10:13] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13431 * ChristopheDucamp * (-6) Divers -
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See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.