IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-06-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  58. [07:51:41] <mfbot> [[presentations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations-fr&diff=0&oldid=17651 * UybBgp * (-7973)
  59. [07:52:02] <mfbot> [[xfolk-jacobian]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-jacobian&diff=0&oldid=17652 * Li5O9v * (-1825)
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  64. [08:01:21] <njero> hey all, is it just me, or is the profile attribute used by microformats... I was looking for a link
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  66. [08:04:53] <njero> Only specific stuff I can find is in relation to GRDDL
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  107. [14:42:37] <mfbot> [[buttons]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons&diff=0&oldid=17654 * Kwilson * (-2) Fixed hAtom button URL.
  108. [14:44:28] <mfbot> [[buttons]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons&diff=0&oldid=17655 * Kwilson * (-2) Missed one
  109. [14:48:18] <mfbot> [[audio-info-proposal]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-proposal&diff=0&oldid=17656 * DavidLehn * (-1) s/creator/artist/
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  119. [16:16:58] <taaz> mkaply: the other day i had an operator question which was poorly stated... let me try again
  120. [16:17:37] <taaz> in the case where you have a microformat with plural elements how can you display an action for each one of them?
  121. [16:18:14] <mkaply> hmm. that's a little tricky. for intance in haudio, something for each track.
  122. [16:18:37] <mkaply> The way I solved that with hatom/hfeed was by creating "internal micrformats" that represent the smaller parts of the microformat
  123. [16:18:41] <mkaply> it's ugly, but it worked
  124. [16:19:03] <taaz> i'm working with the specific case of haudio allowing multiple payment links but it's the same for anything with plural elements.. mulitple addresses or phone numbers or whatever
  125. [16:21:25] <mkaply> I'll have to think about that.
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  128. [16:22:51] <taaz> are objects stored in a map of some sort based on their displayable name? i need to look back at some issue related to that. like a search page returning lots of results named "foo" and only the last one is displayed in operator
  129. [16:25:11] <mkaply> Is it possible the other ones are invalid?
  130. [16:25:13] <mkaply> Turn on debug mode
  131. [16:25:44] <taaz> maybe... i haven't looked into it yet
  132. [16:26:11] <mkaply> I hadn't decided how to handle the telephone number problem yet. Let me do some thinking on that.
  133. [16:26:22] <mkaply> This is all so much easier with rdfa :)
  134. [16:27:46] <taaz> isn't this a ui issue for both mf and rdfa? the info is parsed in properly. i have an array of links but just the first one shows up as an action
  135. [16:28:27] <tantek> mkaply, rdfa is just a generic framework, like xml, what is "easier" about it?
  136. [16:30:07] <mkaply> tantek: well the parser is easier, but that's separate from this. Purely from an action perspective, it's easier to write actions in Operator that work with RDFa because the actions in RDFa are tied to the data better.
  137. [16:30:17] <mkaply> because all the data in the RDFa can be referenced as a URI.
  138. [16:30:41] <tantek> but that's like saying it's easier to tie actions to XML
  139. [16:31:03] <tantek> there are no specific actions you can take with rdfa because it's a framework, it's not a data format
  140. [16:31:27] <mkaply> It really has more to do with my framework. But the interesting part of RDFa from an operator perspective
  141. [16:31:52] <mkaply> is that all the information about the RDFa is contained in the action.
  142. [16:31:59] <mkaply> Operator needs no knowledge about the RDFa itself.
  143. [16:31:59] <tantek> from a user perspective, it doesn't even make sense to expose generic frameworks like that, because users can't really do anything with it
  144. [16:32:37] <mkaply> taaz: how should the UI look
  145. [16:32:51] <tantek> as opposed to a specific format, like hCard, where there are specific actions that can be taken, like adding to an address book.
  146. [16:33:10] <njero> sorry, I asked this last night... but other than with GRDDL do microformats utilize the profile attribute on <head> ?
  147. [16:33:26] <mkaply> What I'll do is make it so that if something is required, and it is a property,
  148. [16:33:27] <tantek> mkaply, exposing frameworks can be useful for debugging and developers, like how Firebug exposes the DOM tree, CSS etc., but not for end users.
  149. [16:33:44] <mkaply> display something like this in the action bar DisplayName (property)
  150. [16:34:06] <mkaply> actally, this goes back to a previous request someone had. The ability for actions to determine what they look like on the menu bar
  151. [16:34:25] <mkaply> for phone numbers, Mike Kaply (55-1212) isn't necessarily enough - nicer to have Mike Kaply(work: 555-1212)
  152. [16:34:28] <taaz> mkaply: there are two issues i guess. one is the api and other is the ui. api will probably require actions to be indexable or something. have doActionLength() or something and an optional index for doAction() to get each one individually. then you could add a list to the ui. but their names would all be the same, like "Buy".
  153. [16:35:41] * taaz hasn't thought this through yet...
  154. [16:35:49] <mkaply> taaz: you're on the right track.
  155. [16:35:53] <tantek> mkaply, in general, technology jargon etc. shouldn't be exposed to the user in the user interface
  156. [16:35:59] <tantek> hence why "contacts" makes sense
  157. [16:36:17] <tantek> whereas users don't need to know what hCard is and that that is what is powering it
  158. [16:36:20] <tantek> nor HTML
  159. [16:36:21] <tantek> nor XML
  160. [16:36:24] <tantek> nor rdfa
  161. [16:36:31] <mkaply> tantek: Yeah. I had a lot of trouble coming up with a ser friendly word that encompassed microformats and RDFA.
  162. [16:36:36] <mkaply> I settled for "data formats" bleahhj
  163. [16:36:49] <tantek> mkaply, the problem is that RDFA is not user-centric
  164. [16:37:00] <tantek> that's why you are having trouble with it from a UI perspective
  165. [16:37:19] <tantek> consider it a goal to have zero tech jargon in the default operator UI
  166. [16:37:26] <mkaply> tantek: it can be. You can take up an vcard using RDFa just like you can using microformats
  167. [16:37:35] <mkaply> s/take/tag
  168. [16:37:52] <mkaply> I think there is some middle ground here that still needs to be found.
  169. [16:38:05] <mkaply> Clearly the issues the haudio folks are running into shows some limitations
  170. [16:38:17] <mkaply> but RDFa is taking things too far
  171. [16:38:25] <tantek> right, it makes simple things complex
  172. [16:38:33] <tantek> and reinvents schemas
  173. [16:38:40] <tantek> or at least syntaxes
  174. [16:39:46] <tantek> mkaply, the problems the haudio folks are running into are not new, and will be easily solved with mfo
  175. [16:41:05] <tantek> the problem is that the folks wanting to solve the problems with the most urgency (and having the time to read/write emails to list accordingly) actually don't have a lot of experience with modular embedded data formats (AFAIK) and thus are trying things and bumping into walls.
  176. [16:41:23] <tantek> i'll be refocussing on some microformats related things soon.
  177. [16:41:39] <tantek> but new formats will not be top priority for me (nor should they be for the community IMHO)
  178. [16:42:07] <tantek> my priorities: http://microformats.org/wiki/todo#overall_priority_ordering
  179. [16:42:51] <tantek> got to go for now, but think about what I said about the default UI for operator
  180. [16:42:53] <tantek> zero tech jargon
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  184. [16:43:15] <tantek> if a technology cannot be made useful to a user with a specific user scenario that can be plainly explained, then it probably doesn't deserve to be implemented.
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  187. [16:46:52] <taaz> heh. wonder what that attitude means when there is a desire to markup audio, video, books, other docs, etc etc.
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  189. [16:48:31] <taaz> i guess this is why RDFa is better. create your own namespace and if your schemas suck it doesn't hurt anyone but you. global microformat namespace is too easy to mess up
  190. [16:50:45] <mkaply> taaz: But at the sametime, with RDFA you can go haywire
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  194. [16:59:38] <mkaply> taaz: hmm. interesting problem. That will require some serious thinking.
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  198. [17:11:08] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  199. [17:11:37] <tantek> actually, if you want to just make up your own terms etc and go for it, just use POSH
  200. [17:11:49] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  201. [17:12:02] <tantek> in fact, we should consider making it a requirement to make your site POSH before even proposing microformats
  202. [17:12:16] <tantek> with POSH you can experiment all you want
  203. [17:12:32] <tantek> and its much easier that worrying about namespace prefixes and all that other syntactic vinnegar
  204. [17:12:50] <tantek> and it's what modern web designers already know how to do
  205. [17:13:41] <tantek> mkaply, is it even worth the time to do "serious thinking" when there isn't a specific user benefit?
  206. [17:14:21] <mkaply> tantek: actually, what taaz is referring to is user benefit. I've always had this problem that if an hcard contained multiple URLs, operator only provided access to the first one.
  207. [17:14:41] <mkaply> That's the problem I'm fixing
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  211. [17:24:28] <mkaply> taaz: still there?
  212. [17:28:36] <taaz> sure
  213. [17:30:38] <mkaply> actualy, I'm thinking to hard. I should have the ability for an action to generate it's own name. Period.
  214. [17:30:46] <mkaply> I should have had that in the beginning. That would solve all this.
  215. [17:30:58] <mkaply> like "generateActionName" or something like that
  216. [17:31:21] <mkaply> I have this mostly working now. The only thing left is having the action look sensible
  217. [17:32:37] <tantek> mkaply, the problem with that is that the actions should be more generic than the formats and may encapsulate multiple formats
  218. [17:32:56] <tantek> unless i'm misunderstanding how the pieces currently fit together
  219. [17:33:22] <mkaply> true. But if you have an action like "dial phone numbers", there should be a way to enumerate all the phone numbers in the UI
  220. [17:33:39] <tantek> taaz, could you add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people ?
  221. [17:34:28] <tantek> mkaply, it depends on whether you have verb-centric UI or a noun-centric UI
  222. [17:34:40] <tantek> like, "do something to/with all the xyz"
  223. [17:34:54] <tantek> or "this is an xyz. with it you can: 1, 2, 3"
  224. [17:34:55] * mattis1 (n=mattis^@p54BD4B83.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Success)
  225. [17:35:24] <mkaply> tantek: Unfortunately in operator, I created a noun API and a verb API. This model doesn't fit as well into the noun API. Because the noun is "hcard"
  226. [17:35:29] <mkaply> but it fits in the verb API
  227. [17:36:53] <tantek> the noun is contact
  228. [17:37:02] <tantek> or even better
  229. [17:37:04] <tantek> "person"
  230. [17:37:06] <tantek> or
  231. [17:37:07] <tantek> "organization"
  232. [17:37:41] <tantek> that's part of the key, to have nouns and verbs WITHOUT jargon that end users understand
  233. [17:38:05] <tantek> you do want both APIs, so that's not unfortunate
  234. [17:38:10] <tantek> you need "Export All Contacts"
  235. [17:38:26] <tantek> you also need "person a -> call them"
  236. [17:38:58] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=17657 * DavidLehn * (+40)
  237. [17:39:13] <mkaply> tantek: But call them isn't enough. What if they have three phone number?
  238. [17:39:18] * mkaply really doesn't want nested menus
  239. [17:43:35] <tantek> then you can have three menu items
  240. [17:43:59] <tantek> using the "type" of tel and/or the # itself as the label
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  245. [17:50:59] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Li5O9v" with an expiry time of infinite: damage/spam
  246. [17:51:00] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:UybBgp" with an expiry time of infinite: damage/spam
  247. [17:51:11] <mfbot> [[presentations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations-fr&diff=0&oldid=17658 * Tantek * (+7973) Reverted edit of UybBgp, changed back to last version by AndyMabbett
  248. [17:51:17] <mfbot> [[xfolk-jacobian]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-jacobian&diff=0&oldid=17659 * Tantek * (+1825) Reverted edit of Li5O9v, changed back to last version by Tantek
  249. [17:51:18] <mfbot> [[xfolk-julian-bez]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-julian-bez&diff=0&oldid=17660 * Tantek * (+1237) Reverted edit of Td2Ux1, changed back to last version by Gazza
  250. [17:51:51] <taaz> surely someone has plugins/patch/whatever to protect mediawikis from spam?
  251. [17:54:15] <taaz> how do you differentiate between haudio enclosure, payment, and sample links? there is a 'type' thing mentioned but not really a "description" that would be useful for a UI.
  252. [17:57:40] <taaz> hrm. maybe that's just my problem. i've got image links so you don't have text for the rel item.
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  289. [20:58:48] <mfbot> [[xfolk-jacobian]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-jacobian&diff=0&oldid=17664 * RyanKing * (+1825) Reverted edit of Qr8Akx, changed back to last version by Tantek
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  298. [21:41:20] <mkaply> taaz: ping
  299. [21:41:59] <taaz> pong
  300. [21:42:15] <mkaply> taaz: you're using my code from SVN, right?
  301. [21:42:45] <taaz> yup. i see you added some stuff
  302. [21:42:55] <mkaply> yep. I added code just for you:)
  303. [21:43:16] <mkaply> http://svn.mozilla.org/labs/operator/userscripts/goto_url.js shows how new stuff works
  304. [21:43:26] <mkaply> doAction takes an extra parameter which is the index of the property
  305. [21:43:49] <mkaply> getActionName can be used if you want to give a custom action name. For instance, if there are multple web pages, it might have the actual web address in the action
  306. [21:45:00] <taaz> nice. i shall try it out now...
  307. [21:45:36] <mkaply> taaz: I think that should do what you want
  308. [21:46:40] <taaz> are required properties supposed to be enforced? i was looking at the weborganics page that has hcards with an org but no fn.
  309. [21:47:22] <taaz> the contacts menu shows they have errors but they still show up in other formats that use hcard
  310. [21:47:56] <tantek> taaz, yes required properties are supposed to be enforced
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  312. [21:50:22] <mkaply> send them email. I'd say "Easy fix" but I have a feeling IBM will never fix our microformats.
  313. [21:50:30] <mkaply> Come to find out they've been there a year and noone noticed
  314. [21:50:39] <mkaply> tantek: did the microformats spec ever require n and not fn?
  315. [21:50:46] <mkaply> s/microformats spec/hcard spec
  316. [21:51:03] <tantek> mkaply no
  317. [21:51:09] <tantek> fn and n have always been required
  318. [21:51:18] <mkaply> I can't figure out where the IBM folks ever came up with the microformats they are using
  319. [21:51:19] <tantek> the n requirement can be met with implied n rules
  320. [21:51:28] <tantek> mkaply, perhaps they are using POSH
  321. [21:51:35] <tantek> people often get the two confused
  322. [21:51:40] <tantek> hence we had to *name* what POSH is
  323. [21:51:48] <tantek> in order to help educate folks as to the difference
  324. [21:52:48] <mkaply> tantek: No, they definitely intended microformats. They just forgot stuff. Too much else is the same.
  325. [21:53:00] <taaz> mkaply: sure the source markup should be fixed but this also breaks operator a bit. i assumed fn would exist on hcards in haudio but these invalid ones are there instead. i think it would be better to just have them not show up if they are broken.
  326. [21:53:41] <mkaply> They only show up because you are in debug mode.
  327. [21:53:47] <mkaply> If you weren't, you wouldn't see thjem
  328. [21:57:07] <taaz> heh. ok. i see. so in non-debug mode there is nothing at all detected in this page.
  329. [21:57:43] <taaz> the new code seems to be working. thanks!
  330. [21:58:49] <mkaply> taaz: excellent. Please let me know if youhave any problems.
  331. [21:58:52] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-385d0433795fbee2) Quit ("Leaving")
  332. [22:00:45] <taaz> heh... 30 seconds later i find repeatable firefox crasher :)
  333. [22:00:55] <tantek> i'd strongly recommend against implementing preliminary drafts like hAudio
  334. [22:01:03] <tantek> so much of the process has not been followed there
  335. [22:01:29] <tantek> and it's been rushed too quickly to give thorough feedback on those aspects
  336. [22:02:15] <taaz> fyi, i work for manu who's heading up haudio
  337. [22:03:00] <tantek> don't get me wrong taaz, i want to see an audio-info microformat happen as well
  338. [22:03:08] * vant (n=vant@p2026-ipbf906marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  339. [22:03:20] <tantek> there's just a disconnect right now between eagerness and ability of the community to help guide things through the process
  340. [22:04:15] <tantek> taaz, and that being said, have you worked on poshifying the site first?
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  346. [22:08:44] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/posh
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  348. [22:15:39] <taaz> tantek: i'm unsure how to answer this because it sounds like a trap. :)
  349. [22:16:31] <JMulder> Anyone got a minute?
  350. [22:16:49] <JMulder> I think someone in here must know the answer to my question.
  351. [22:17:19] <JMulder> I am looking for the english word that is similar to a dissertation of thesis, but instead applies to a project not academic research.
  352. [22:17:43] <JMulder> *of = or
  353. [22:18:25] <taaz> tantek: i haven't been working on our website until i started to look at this microformat stuff. but the haudio discussion that Manu has been involved in is due to our need to move more towards semantic html.
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  361. [22:53:49] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=17665 * Ps3N3h * (+0)
  362. [23:04:05] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=17666 * Tantek * (+0) Reverted edit of Ps3N3h, changed back to last version by Tantek
  363. [23:04:21] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Ps3N3h" with an expiry time of infinite: damage/spam
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  366. [23:14:31] <tantek> wow check out: http://getsatisfaction.com/people/new
  367. [23:14:40] <tantek> hCard importing for sign up!
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