IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-09-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  7. [01:14:44] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  33. [05:23:44] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  36. [05:40:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  37. [05:40:16] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  41. [06:12:41] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  55. [07:57:45] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  61. [09:01:38] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-112e51276d671f7a) has joined #microformats
  62. [09:01:38] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
  63. [09:11:02] <mfbot> [[blog-description-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-description-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=21494 * FlqWwl * (+12785)
  64. [09:12:09] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  65. [09:12:09] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  66. [09:26:59] <mfbot> [[blog-description-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-description-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=21495 * BenWard * (-12785) Reverted edit of FlqWwl, changed back to last version by BenWard
  67. [09:27:40] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * BenWard * (+0) blocked "User:FlqWwl" with an expiry time of indefinite: Filthy, dirty spammer.
  68. [09:37:38] * illustir (n=alper@c51448e84.cable.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
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  71. [10:45:03] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & the Podfather & now credentialed as a social genius
  72. [10:47:18] <bluesmoon> what are syllepses?
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  80. [11:48:00] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  81. [11:50:13] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=21496 * AndyMabbett * (+100) Optimus
  82. [11:56:09] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=21497 * AndyMabbett * (-9634) page too long; splitting
  83. [12:00:51] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-with-problems]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild-with-problems * AndyMabbett * (+9551)
  84. [12:01:12] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-with-problems]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-with-problems&diff=0&oldid=21498 * AndyMabbett * (-5)
  85. [12:02:43] <mfbot> [[Template:hcard-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hcard-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=21499 * AndyMabbett * (+86) hCard examples in the wild, with problems
  86. [12:03:54] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-with-problems]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-with-problems&diff=0&oldid=21500 * AndyMabbett * (+34) hcard-examples-in-wild
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  89. [12:16:55] <mfbot> [[spellcheck]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=spellcheck&diff=0&oldid=21501 * AndyMabbett * (+9) optimus
  90. [12:17:56] <mfbot> [[spellcheck]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=spellcheck&diff=0&oldid=21502 * AndyMabbett * (+89) subsequent changes
  91. [12:18:47] <mfbot> [[spellcheck]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=spellcheck&diff=0&oldid=21503 * AndyMabbett * (-10) rm redundant enteries
  92. [12:19:33] <mfbot> [[spellcheck]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=spellcheck&diff=0&oldid=21504 * AndyMabbett * (-29) fmt, rm comment
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  94. [12:43:11] <mfbot> [[twitter-nanoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitter-nanoformats&diff=0&oldid=21505 * TekeTen * (+162) 2nanoformats (syntax:param) -
  95. [12:51:09] * TristanD (n=tristan@AVelizy-153-1-83-96.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #microformats
  96. [13:15:08] <mfbot> [[Talk:product-brainstorming]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:product-brainstorming * Mi5Bps * (+12830)
  97. [13:16:29] <mfbot> [[page-last-modified-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-last-modified-examples&diff=0&oldid=21506 * By1N2x * (+13950)
  98. [13:16:50] <mfbot> [[page-last-modified-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-last-modified-examples&diff=0&oldid=21507 * BenWard * (-13950) Reverted edit of By1N2x, changed back to last version by RobertBachmann
  99. [13:17:01] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * BenWard * (+0) deleted "Talk:product-brainstorming": Spam. No talk pages.
  100. [13:21:57] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * BenWard * (+0) blocked "User:By1N2x" with an expiry time of indefinte: Spammer.
  101. [13:23:05] <bluesmoon> all hail BenWard
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  109. [13:57:42] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  111. [13:58:44] <jibot> jimbojw is Jim R. Wilson of http://jimbojw.com/
  112. [13:59:29] <jimbojw> jibot: :*
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  114. [14:18:35] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-738be7df8e6ae18f) has joined #microformats
  115. [14:18:35] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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  122. [15:14:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  123. [15:14:58] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  124. [15:24:27] <tantek> mkaply, i didn't see your comments regarding chicken/egg until later yesterday.
  125. [15:24:35] <tantek> i think there may be some misconceptions there
  126. [15:25:02] <mkaply> tantek: I still have time to change my words :)
  127. [15:25:26] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) has joined #microformats
  128. [15:25:26] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  129. [15:26:48] <tantek> mkaply, are the qs from InternetNews . com ? I think I may have gotten the same queries
  130. [15:27:04] <mkaply> tantek: yes
  131. [15:27:08] <tantek> ah ok
  132. [15:27:14] <tantek> then we might as well discuss here :)
  133. [15:27:40] <tantek> new data formats in general have a chicken and egg problem, which is exactly as you describe, in general
  134. [15:28:14] <tantek> however, there are a few things about microformats that make them quite different than new data formats in general that in many ways solve the chicken/egg problem
  135. [15:29:29] <tantek> the first, and perhaps most important difference is that some microformats are immediately useful to *both* site developers (the people that publish microformats) and site users *today*.
  136. [15:29:31] * daggi (n=chrisada@82-45-160-216.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  137. [15:30:06] <tantek> hCard and hCalendar for example are immediately useful, today, without needing any new tools, nor requiring the user to install or upgrade anything
  138. [15:30:37] <tantek> Nearly every business has an "about" or "contact" page where they list their contact information.
  139. [15:30:53] <mkaply> I don't disagree they are useful. But there are still people that say "what good is putting the microformat information in" "what can the user do with it"
  140. [15:31:38] <tantek> By simple a) marking up this contact information with the hCard microformat, and b) providing a "Add to Address Book" link that uses a conversion service, a business immediately enables users to one-click add that contact information to their address books.
  141. [15:32:17] <mkaply> True
  142. [15:32:28] <tantek> this works *today*, not in some theoretical future. today.
  143. [15:32:39] * mefisto (n=mefisto|@213.175.120.26) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  144. [15:32:41] <tantek> and has worked actually for over two years now.
  145. [15:32:56] <tantek> This convenience of sharing contact information is not to be underestimated.
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  148. [15:34:09] <tantek> Typical business depend financially very much so on repeat business (whether repeat webpage views/visits or purchases), and thus making it much more convenient/easier for users to add the business's contact info to their address books increases the amount of "repeats" that the business gets.
  149. [15:35:12] <tantek> From a user's perspective, when they find a business they are interested in, say a restaurant for example, in the past they have had to copy/paste the name, the address (street, city, state, zip), phone number, and perhaps notes about the business one at a time into their addressbook or notepad etc.
  150. [15:35:14] * jimbojw (n=chatzill@c-67-162-178-189.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007073113]")
  151. [15:35:31] * tback_ is now known as tback
  152. [15:36:12] <tantek> This can be quite time consuming, as it might involve dozen or more clicks, selects, menu commands etc. It's a non-trivial barrier to copying that information which the business *wants* the user to copy down so they come visit (perhaps again).
  153. [15:36:44] <tantek> Anything time consuming presents a high barrier to entry to most users / consumers, and thus they don't do it very often.
  154. [15:38:07] <tantek> However, when a user comes across a restaurant with contact information marked up in hCard and a visible "Add to Address Book" link, they just click that link (a single user actions, in contrast to perhaps dozens), and seemingly magically the restaurant's contact info is added to their addressbook, which then gets automatically sync'd with their phone or PDA and they can use when on the go.
  155. [15:38:21] <mkaply> Good point. I'll amend my answer a little bit
  156. [15:38:30] <tantek> A very similar user-scenario is also true with hCalendar.
  157. [15:38:31] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.66) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  158. [15:40:01] <tantek> In the past, when a music group or band would publish their tour dates, a user had to copy and paste the information, when, what day, location, summary, etc. one at a time from the band's website into their calendar.
  159. [15:41:17] <tantek> Today (and again, for actually over two years), a band can markup their upcoming concerts with hCalendar, and then add a "Add to Calendar" link that similarly uses a conversion service, and allows users to one-click add a band's concert dates to their calendar.
  160. [15:42:21] <tantek> Thus again, what might have taken the user dozens of user actions to copy the concert information (which again, the band *wants* the user to copy down, because they want the users to go to their concerts!), now takes only one click by the user.
  161. [15:42:35] <tantek> With hCalendar, there is an additional advantage though, over the past.
  162. [15:44:09] <tantek> That same band can actually add a "Subscribe to our concert events" link to their site as well, which enables users to not just one time copy the current concert schedule into their calendars, but to *subscribe* to the band's concert schedule in their calendars so that if and when the band's tour dates change (which often happens), the user's calendar automatically gets the updated information.
  163. [15:45:05] <tantek> In essence, such a subscription forms a relationships between the business and the user, e.g. a band and their fans), and helps the fans keep up with the band.
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  165. [15:46:16] <tantek> So popping back up a level, this is just the FIRST of three reasons why microformats in many ways has solved the chicken/egg problem that data formats in general have.
  166. [15:46:28] <tantek> The second reason is adapting to current behavior.
  167. [15:47:01] * mattis^ (n=mattis^@p54BD612E.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  168. [15:47:02] <tantek> Modern web designers have been using semantic (that is, meaningful, as opposed to purely presentational) class names in their markup of their web sites for many years.
  169. [15:47:52] <tantek> microformats takes advantage of this existing behavior, and essentially provides some standard conventions/suggestions for what class names to use when marking up certain types of things such as people, events, organizations, reviews, etc.
  170. [15:48:58] <tantek> Since modern web designers and information architects already spend the time to figure out what semantic class names to use for all the different parts of a site, microformats actually make their job *easier* by providing a standard set to use, rather than having to figure out what class names to use.
  171. [15:49:27] <tantek> Thus microformats takes an existing good practice in the web design and information architecture community and makes it *easier*.
  172. [15:50:07] <tantek> Anytime you provide a way for someone to make their job easier, even a little, they're likely to do it.
  173. [15:50:20] <tantek> THIRD, curiosity is sufficient for adoption.
  174. [15:50:47] <tantek> By this point a most web developers have heard about microformats and are at least curious about them.
  175. [15:51:07] <tantek> People spend time exploring their curiosity. It's just a natural aspect of being human.
  176. [15:51:47] <tantek> With microformats, we have literally made it so easy to *try* adding microformats, that more often than not, simply a web developer being curious and trying microformats in their code is sufficient for them to support it.
  177. [15:52:43] <tantek> The key here is that it takes so little time (in most cases, a few minutes) for a web developer or designer to add microformats to their code, that just the motivation and energy of being curious is sufficient for the web developer to spend those few minutes trying, and the succeeding with adding microformats to their HTML.
  178. [15:54:17] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) has joined #microformats
  179. [15:54:17] <jibot> ddfreyne is Denis Defreyne and blogs at http://stoneship.org/.
  180. [15:56:13] <tantek> mkaply, there are many more reasons, like web sites already have incentive to provide APIs, and microformats provide the quickest/fastest way to provide an API for the content they publish etc.
  181. [15:56:47] <tantek> and microformats are also benefitting from the publisher/tool feedback loop.
  182. [15:57:20] <tantek> Since publishers already have sufficient incentive to publish microformats, and they are, as is clearly demonstrated by our "Examples in the wild" pages, there are now hundreds of millions of pieces of microformatted information out there.
  183. [15:57:57] <tantek> Thus tool makers have a sufficient base of data and incentive to build tools to make even better use of those microformats, and are building such tools. Operator is a perfect example of that, as is the forthcoming Firefox 3.
  184. [15:58:20] <tantek> Every month (sometimes every week) someone launches a new tool or open source library that uses microformats.
  185. [15:58:36] <tantek> Last month is was open source social network portability code and services from Plaxo and Pownce.
  186. [15:58:48] <tantek> This month we already have a microformat parsing service called Optimus.
  187. [15:59:48] <mkaply> So what do you think will make microformats as ubiquitous as hyperlinking?
  188. [16:03:22] <tantek> I think the emergence of GUI/WYSIWYG editors that support creating microformats for people, events, etc. just as they support creating hyperlinks, will provide that tipping point.
  189. [16:03:52] <tantek> Nearly every blog and wiki editing tool/service has some form of button bar for users to create headings, links etc.
  190. [16:05:05] <tantek> If you look at most blogs, people are nearly always blogging about people, events etc., and imagine if your blogging tool had a little dropdown menu to insert a reference to someone in your address book, or an event from your calendar.
  191. [16:05:20] <tantek> a single menu click like that would be easier than typing out people and event's names and info into your blog post, and thus you'd use it.
  192. [16:06:31] <tantek> Once adding a microformat to your blog post or wiki is as easy as adding a hyperlink, microformats will be as ubiquitous as hyperlinks, or as much as they can be, as most microformats themselves contain hyperlinks.
  193. [16:07:03] * vant (n=vant@p4225-ipbf3508marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  194. [16:09:10] <tantek> There are some such editors now, as plugins, e.g. for Adobe (formerly Macromedia) Dreamweaver, Drew McClellan created a plugin that enables users to easily add microformats to their HTML.
  195. [16:11:17] * mattis1 (n=mattis^@p54BD74A0.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  196. [16:14:55] <hober> IIRC, the Eventful plugin for WLW produces hCalendar, f.ex.
  197. [16:15:07] <tantek> WLW?
  198. [16:16:10] <hober> windows live writer, microsoft's desktop blogging client thingy
  199. [16:17:35] <mkaply> It even supports Live Clipboard! :)
  200. [16:17:41] <hober> heh
  201. [16:18:16] <hober> tantek: http://tinyurl.com/38r888
  202. [16:18:26] <tantek> ah right!
  203. [16:18:38] <tantek> hober, did you document that on the "implementations" page?
  204. [16:18:44] <hober> checking...
  205. [16:20:32] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=21508 * EdwardOConnor * (+179) Desktop Authoring Tools - WLW
  206. [16:21:12] <tantek> awesome
  207. [16:21:54] <bluesmoon> having editors that can insert microformats like they do hyperlinks isn't sufficient to get people to use them.
  208. [16:21:57] <bluesmoon> what you need
  209. [16:22:13] <bluesmoon> is style rules that people can include into their pages to render those microformats in cool ways
  210. [16:25:40] <mkaply> bluesmoon: read John Allsopp's book :)
  211. [16:25:55] <mkaply> It's got as much CSS for microformats as it does microformats
  212. [16:26:50] <tantek> bluesmoon, users don't care about style rules
  213. [16:27:06] <tantek> users care about simply entering content into their blogs and wikis etc.
  214. [16:27:12] <bluesmoon> they don't care about style rules, but they do care that their pages look nice
  215. [16:27:49] <tantek> If a user can simple pick a friend's name from a drop down list and have it inserted (along with a link to their friend's site), they'll use that rather than manually type their friend's name and URL.
  216. [16:27:53] <tantek> Same with events.
  217. [16:28:04] <bluesmoon> k
  218. [16:28:08] * mattis^ (n=mattis^@p54BD612E.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Success)
  219. [16:28:42] <bluesmoon> but what if that name isn't in a list?
  220. [16:31:19] <tantek> then you enter it once, it goes into your address book, and thus into the list
  221. [16:31:46] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  222. [16:31:52] <tantek> or you add it to your address book from wherever you found the name
  223. [16:32:19] <tantek> since it's more and more likely that the name itself is marked up with hCard
  224. [16:32:37] <tantek> some browsers may even auto-detect the hCards of names on pages you visit and keep them in a "recent names" cache
  225. [16:32:59] <tantek> which they may use in such lists, or at least to "auto-complete" entry of names
  226. [16:36:29] * jimbojw (n=chatzill@c-67-162-178-189.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  227. [16:36:30] <jibot> jimbojw is Jim R. Wilson of http://jimbojw.com/
  228. [16:42:13] <tantek> hober, could you add the WLW implementation to a new "Microsoft" section here: http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations
  229. [16:42:23] <tantek> (also add I mean, thanks! :) )
  230. [16:42:34] <bluesmoon> hmm
  231. [16:43:00] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
  232. [16:43:28] <bluesmoon> something like xx toolbar importing hCards into xx addressbook, for certain values of xx
  233. [16:45:21] <hober> tantek: sure
  234. [16:46:34] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=21509 * EdwardOConnor * (-21) EVDB - Eventful no longer uses the EVDB name at all
  235. [16:47:43] * tback (n=tback@dialin-212-144-040-234.pools.arcor-ip.net) Quit (No route to host)
  236. [16:47:50] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=21510 * EdwardOConnor * (+79) Companies / Developers / Organizations - +Microsoft
  237. [16:49:16] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=21511 * EdwardOConnor * (+167) Applications / Plugins / Services / Tools - WLW
  238. [16:51:42] * MAKACOW (i=semwhois@200-100-147-126.dial-up.telesp.net.br) has joined #microformats
  239. [16:53:20] * run1 (n=runa@200.69.209.25) Quit ("Leaving.")
  240. [17:02:16] <tantek> thanks hober!
  241. [17:02:25] * tantek just came across http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/
  242. [17:02:50] <hober> np
  243. [17:02:57] <tantek> note especially the list of translations at the top
  244. [17:03:13] <tantek> this is perhaps the best public domain dedication resource I have found on the Web
  245. [17:03:45] <tantek> What do people think about making all contributions to the microformats wiki required public domain contributions, just as Wikipedia requires GFDL contributions?
  246. [17:04:31] <hober> I think that would be great
  247. [17:05:05] <tantek> so many folks have already made the voluntary public domain declaration that I think in practice this wouldn't make much of a difference for the most frequent authors on the wiki
  248. [17:12:28] <tantek> ooh look, new Digg profiles and friends lists support hCard! http://digg.com/users/laughingsquid http://digg.com/users/laughingsquid/friends/view
  249. [17:15:29] * tback (n=tback@dialin-212-144-040-086.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #microformats
  250. [17:17:28] * madness (n=mng@82-43-75-193.cable.ubr06.croy.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  251. [17:28:21] * MAKACOW (i=semwhois@200-100-147-126.dial-up.telesp.net.br) Quit ()
  252. [17:28:29] <hober> not xfn-ified :(
  253. [17:28:42] <tantek> Daniel Burka is working on it
  254. [17:31:35] <madness> I have some questions about hAtom
  255. [17:32:14] * jimbojw_ (n=chatzill@c-67-162-178-189.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  256. [17:32:14] <hober> madness: please ask them!
  257. [17:32:18] * tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  258. [17:32:21] <madness> it states that a hcard for the author is compulsory in the spec
  259. [17:32:43] * jimbojw (n=chatzill@c-67-162-178-189.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  260. [17:32:51] * jimbojw_ is now known as jimbojw
  261. [17:32:53] <madness> the data that I'm trying to present as hAtom (I'm writing an RSS/Atom reader) doesn't always come with that information
  262. [17:33:24] <madness> I'm thinking about using the title of the feed itself and the link there in the hCard
  263. [17:33:31] <tantek_> i think i was offline for a few minutes there
  264. [17:33:36] <hober> hmm.
  265. [17:33:51] <madness> hey tantek - we met a couple of weeks ago at barcamp brighton :)
  266. [17:33:54] <hober> madness: at least in the case of Atom feeds, I think you should always be able to find authorship datas
  267. [17:33:56] <hober> err, data
  268. [17:34:13] <hober> either via atom:entry/atom:author, or defaulting to atom:feed/atom:author
  269. [17:34:28] <madness> hober: what if I have invalid data ?
  270. [17:34:36] <tantek_> madness, could you add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people
  271. [17:34:45] <madness> hober: I'd rather handle it and do something sane than refuse to deal with it
  272. [17:34:52] <hober> sure, of course
  273. [17:34:57] <madness> tantek_: doing ! :)
  274. [17:35:07] <tantek_> :)
  275. [17:35:28] <madness> hober: is the course of action I was considering the best one ?
  276. [17:35:44] <hober> hmm.
  277. [17:35:55] <hober> Something along those lines, maybe
  278. [17:36:05] <hober> How about something like this:
  279. [17:36:39] <hober> <address class="vcard"><a href="{feed-href}" class="fn org url">{feed-name}</a></address>
  280. [17:37:01] <hober> basically, treat the site-with-feed-with-no-authorship-info as an organization
  281. [17:37:10] <hober> you know the organization's name & url
  282. [17:37:13] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  283. [17:38:09] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=21512 * MarkNg * (+91)
  284. [17:38:40] <madness> hober: cool - that's along the same lines as what I was thinking, but more specific
  285. [17:39:25] <madness> tantek_: done ;)
  286. [17:40:40] <mfbot> [[User:MarkNg]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:MarkNg * MarkNg * (+24)
  287. [17:48:16] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  288. [17:48:58] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-a28c6b7531f3097c) has joined #microformats
  289. [17:48:58] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & the Podfather & now credentialed as a social genius
  290. [17:54:33] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  291. [17:54:33] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  292. [17:55:40] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-112e51276d671f7a) Quit ("Fades out again…")
  293. [18:03:31] <tantek> The new Google Sharing user profiles support hCard: http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2007/09/google-shared-stuff.html
  294. [18:09:45] <madness> by my searching, it appears there is no way to validate hatom ?
  295. [18:10:50] <bewest> wouldn't it be more important to validate the atom produced as the result of a transform?
  296. [18:11:14] <bewest> tantek: hmm that looks kind of neat
  297. [18:13:43] <bewest> where's the hcard though?
  298. [18:13:51] <bewest> I don't see one on http://www.google.com/s2/sharing/stuff?user=109581870574956225297
  299. [18:14:03] <tantek> it's in the frame in the top right corner
  300. [18:14:56] * tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  301. [18:15:01] <bewest> ah.... the frame tricked me
  302. [18:15:58] <mfbot> [[implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=21513 * Tantek * (+65) added some intrawiki links
  303. [18:19:32] * bewest roots around looking for a way to edit his profile
  304. [18:20:58] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
  305. [18:33:27] * tback (n=tback@dialin-212-144-040-086.pools.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  306. [18:39:25] * daggi (n=chrisada@82-45-160-216.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit ()
  307. [18:39:33] <KevinMarks> eh?
  308. [18:39:42] <KevinMarks> it should have an edit button on
  309. [18:40:04] <KevinMarks> you can't edit *mine*
  310. [18:40:19] * jimbojw (n=chatzill@c-67-162-178-189.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) has left #microformats
  311. [18:40:35] <tantek> KevinMarks, I think this section needs some updating: http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations#Google
  312. [18:40:58] <hober> I added some urls during an 'edit profile' session, saved, but upon a subsequent profile edit, they disappeared. :(
  313. [18:41:51] <bewest> KevinMarks: I don't see an edit button
  314. [18:41:53] <hober> (Though I'm currently unable to reproduce that.)
  315. [18:42:02] <bewest> I'm looking at my profile as I see it
  316. [18:42:17] <bewest> there's a "report this profile" link
  317. [18:42:25] <KevinMarks> and you are logged into google?
  318. [18:42:42] <bewest> yeah, my email address is in the upper right with a "log out" link next to it
  319. [18:43:03] <KevinMarks> hm
  320. [18:43:43] <KevinMarks> there should be an 'edit this profile' button between the links and the 'about xxx'
  321. [18:45:01] <bewest> I don't see any 'about xxx'
  322. [18:45:37] <bewest> are there other services I have to be enrolled in for this to work?
  323. [18:45:49] <bewest> I've never used the bookmarks feature
  324. [18:45:54] <hober> I'm surprised that the default syndication format is RSS, given Google's seemingly big commitment to Atom & APP
  325. [18:46:25] <bewest> oh, I see Google Profile for:
  326. [18:46:33] <bewest> then my nickname with a blank picture
  327. [18:46:53] <bewest> then subscribe to updates on this page: [google] [rss]
  328. [18:54:16] <KevinMarks> that sounds like the logged out view
  329. [18:54:18] <KevinMarks> odd
  330. [18:54:35] <KevinMarks> google is large, it contains multitudes
  331. [18:55:44] <bewest> KevinMarks: should I log out/log in or try something else?
  332. [18:56:02] <KevinMarks> try that, yes
  333. [18:56:31] <bewest> aha
  334. [18:56:34] <bewest> now there's a form for me to edit
  335. [18:56:37] <KevinMarks> hm
  336. [18:56:49] <KevinMarks> maybe the iframe was somehow missing the cookie
  337. [18:59:59] <bewest> any chance of integrating openId? :-)
  338. [19:00:14] <bewest> probably allowing relationships on links being recorded would be neat
  339. [19:01:38] * Hagfish (n=Ed@80.175.122.69) Quit ("Konversation terminated!")
  340. [19:06:11] <mfbot> [[User talk:MarkNg]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:MarkNg * AndyMabbett * (+73) Welcome!
  341. [19:07:45] * WilleRaab (i=WilleRaa@89-253-85-3.customers.ownit.se) has joined #microformats
  342. [19:08:00] <KevinMarks> integrating it how? To prove you own the links in your profile?
  343. [19:09:14] * Hagfish (n=Ed@80.175.122.69) has joined #microformats
  344. [19:09:21] * WilleRaab (i=WilleRaa@89-253-85-3.customers.ownit.se) Quit (Client Quit)
  345. [19:11:46] * kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com) has joined #microformats
  346. [19:11:46] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  347. [19:11:46] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  348. [19:13:31] * bengee (n=bengee@ip150.209.reserved.ish.de) Quit ("Leaving")
  349. [19:19:37] <bewest> perhaps
  350. [19:19:49] <bewest> or to say that the owner of some other profile is a friend
  351. [19:20:47] <bewest> oh, re openid... it'd be kind of neat if I could use google authentication to identify myself with other services using openid
  352. [19:20:57] <bewest> and those services could then pick up my profile from this profile stuff
  353. [19:28:57] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-137-237-196.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  354. [19:34:29] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-137-237-196.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  355. [19:42:01] * jimbojw (n=chatzill@c-67-162-178-189.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  356. [19:42:01] <jibot> jimbojw is Jim R. Wilson of http://jimbojw.com/
  357. [19:51:38] <mkaply> I thought you were only supposed to have one <author> per page?
  358. [19:52:20] <kingryan> mkaply: in what context?
  359. [19:52:38] * jimbojw (n=chatzill@c-67-162-178-189.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) has left #microformats
  360. [19:53:04] <mkaply> kingryan: I thought <author> was the author of the page.
  361. [19:53:23] <kingryan> are we talking about html?
  362. [19:53:28] <mkaply> sorry, yes :)
  363. [19:53:40] * kingryan is confused because there is no author element in html
  364. [19:53:46] <mkaply> sorry, address
  365. [19:53:48] <mkaply> I'm losing my mind
  366. [19:54:25] <kingryan> no, you can have many address elements on a page
  367. [19:54:40] <kingryan> is identifies the person responible for a "page or part of a page"
  368. [19:54:46] <kingryan> responsible*
  369. [19:55:11] <mkaply> OK. got it.
  370. [19:56:21] <bewest> heh... it's not "the author," it's "the person responsible"
  371. [19:57:23] <kingryan> yes, somewhat ambigious
  372. [19:57:33] <kingryan> though author is usually pretty close
  373. [19:58:03] <bewest> in case they need to be sacked, I guess
  374. [20:09:47] <tantek> "to supply contact information for a document or a major part of a document such as a form."
  375. [20:10:32] * tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  376. [20:10:32] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  377. [20:11:45] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  378. [20:11:47] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  379. [20:14:45] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Should_I_use_ADDRESS_for_hCards
  380. [20:19:25] <tantek> see also: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Representative_hCard_discovery
  381. [20:20:53] <tantek> in short <address> means *contact* for the page or part thereof. The contact may or may not be the same as the author of the page (who wrote it). The contact may or may not be same as the owner (who controls it). The contact may or may not be same as the person represented (who the page is about).
  382. [20:22:04] <KevinMarks> ah
  383. [20:23:50] <KevinMarks> why prefer logo to photo?
  384. [20:29:32] <tantek> KevinMarks, I will trade answers for you adding all your good microformats work to http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations#Google which currently lacks all the goodness you've been doing in recent months! ;)
  385. [20:31:40] <KevinMarks> heh
  386. [20:32:25] <tantek> bbab (be back after brunch)
  387. [20:32:27] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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  394. [21:06:43] * h3h (n=w3rd@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  395. [21:09:32] <h3h> is it just me or is the Live Clipboard JS implementation as retarded as I think it is?
  396. [21:10:35] <h3h> I have to duplicate the microformat data that's already in the page to feed it to their JS constructor...
  397. [21:11:11] * WilleRaab (i=WilleRaa@89-253-85-3.customers.ownit.se) Quit ()
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  405. [21:34:57] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  406. [21:34:57] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  407. [21:43:42] * briansuda (n=briansud@194-144-106-194.du.xdsl.is) has joined #microformats
  408. [21:43:42] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  409. [21:43:42] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  410. [21:44:30] * TristanD (n=tristan@AVelizy-153-1-83-96.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Client Quit)
  411. [21:46:22] <mkaply> h3h: Outrageously bad. And brain dead
  412. [21:46:41] <mkaply> IT's just a horrible piece of code. When I messed around, I implemented Live Clipboard on an existing microformat (not using JS)
  413. [21:46:50] <mkaply> then gave up and just put live clipboard in Operator
  414. [21:47:03] <h3h> you don't happen to have that JS around, do you?
  415. [21:47:07] <h3h> I was planning on doing just that
  416. [21:47:27] <mkaply> No, it was a long time ago.
  417. [21:47:36] <mkaply> Basically as long as you emulate their class names, you'll be OK.
  418. [21:47:43] <h3h> the "docs" are hurting my head
  419. [21:47:45] <mkaply> Use a DOM inspector to view the page and suck in their page structure.
  420. [21:48:00] <h3h> I don't know if this architecture could have been anymore ridiculous for such a simple goal
  421. [21:48:10] <mkaply> h3h: that's probably why it's not getting any adoption.
  422. [21:48:15] <mkaply> eventful are the only folks that have done it
  423. [21:48:15] <h3h> indeed
  424. [21:48:21] <h3h> yeah, that's me :(
  425. [21:48:34] <h3h> damn the corporate alliances
  426. [21:48:46] <briansuda> didn't eventful break it too?
  427. [21:49:03] <h3h> and the first time I implemented it was in about 14 minutes before a launch, hence the nasty duplication thing
  428. [21:49:09] <mkaply> They dropped it in their relaunch
  429. [21:49:10] <h3h> trying to do it right now...if there is a right
  430. [21:49:13] <mkaply> So I assume you are redoing it?
  431. [21:49:15] <h3h> yep
  432. [21:49:22] <mkaply> Just tell folks to use Operator :)
  433. [21:49:26] <h3h> we dropped it because it was a huge headache
  434. [21:49:36] <h3h> but now business reasons are forcing it back in
  435. [21:49:41] <mkaply> But of course the Windows Live Writer tie in requires it, right?
  436. [21:49:52] <h3h> yeah. that's what I wanted to say, but I don't think the MSFT guys would be enthused with that answer
  437. [21:50:01] <mkaply> they like Operator :)
  438. [21:50:14] <mkaply> where in the UI are you going to add the scissors?
  439. [21:50:27] <h3h> under "Save to calendar"
  440. [21:50:29] <briansuda> What ever happened to Live Writter
  441. [21:50:47] <briansuda> i downloaded it once, but i couldn"t play with it unless i added a blog end-point
  442. [21:50:55] <mkaply> IT's still around,. They had a new beta a month or so ago I thin k
  443. [21:51:04] <briansuda> i thought it supported APP (atom publishing protocol) but couldn"t find it
  444. [21:52:50] * madness (n=mng@82-43-75-193.cable.ubr06.croy.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit ()
  445. [21:52:53] <briansuda> hm, i will have to look again
  446. [21:52:58] <mkaply> h3h: it is doable.
  447. [21:53:04] <mkaply> h3h: I can't find the code
  448. [21:53:21] <h3h> yeah. I just have to wrap my head around this architecture
  449. [21:53:23] <mkaply> h3h: I distinctly remember focusing on the DOM after the JS and then copying it
  450. [21:53:24] <h3h> then bend it to my will
  451. [21:53:39] <mkaply> just promise me you won't dupliicate the vcard
  452. [21:53:44] <h3h> will not
  453. [21:53:51] <mkaply> I hated that eventful used to have two vevents on every page
  454. [21:53:56] <h3h> me too
  455. [22:00:17] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) Quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
  456. [22:04:20] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-738be7df8e6ae18f) Quit ("Leaving")
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  458. [22:08:54] * MAKACOW (n=semwhois@200-100-147-126.dial-up.telesp.net.br) has joined #microformats
  459. [22:09:08] <MAKACOW> do rel='generator and rel='designer' exist??
  460. [22:09:21] <MAKACOW> sorry my bad english
  461. [22:09:24] <kingryan> MAKACOW: rel=designer, yes
  462. [22:09:32] * MAKACOW is now known as MAKACOW-Brazil
  463. [22:09:39] <kingryan> I haven't seen rel=generator, though there's a <meta> property for that
  464. [22:11:04] <MAKACOW-Brazil> i see her -> http://onthetech.com/
  465. [22:11:19] <MAKACOW-Brazil> in the footer template
  466. [22:24:49] <MAKACOW-Brazil> 47 results http://www.google.com/search?q=rel=%22generator%22
  467. [22:25:04] <MAKACOW-Brazil> 99% in wordpress themes
  468. [22:26:21] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  469. [22:26:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  470. [22:26:21] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  471. [22:26:39] <kingryan> yes MAKACOW-Brazil, wordpress are they only ones who seem to use it
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  477. [22:45:49] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  481. [23:36:34] <mfbot> [[Talk:uid-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:uid-examples * LhyAcc * (+13294)
  482. [23:51:01] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) deleted "Talk:uid-examples": spam
  483. [23:51:22] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) blocked "User:LhyAcc" with an expiry time of indefinite: spam
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