IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-05-19

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  56. [07:36:25] <tantek> I'm splitting the Google and Yahoo entries on the "search-engines" page into their own main articles - they both have sufficient documentation/links to deserve their own pages.
  57. [07:38:13] <BenWard> Hmm. OK. So long as you think they'll be maintained. I was looking at Search Engines yesterday wondering if it was perhaps negatively fragmenting Implementations (since it causes duplication)
  58. [07:50:14] <tantek> I'm going to start by borrowing from Wikipedia's "Main article:" convention
  59. [07:50:23] <tantek> that appears to scale reasonably well
  60. [07:51:03] <BenWard> OK.
  61. [07:51:29] <BenWard> I wonder if perhaps, if Y and G get split out of search-engines, then search-engines should be merged back into Implementations.
  62. [07:53:37] <tantek> not sure - there's enough other experimental stuff going on, plus the brief blurbs about Y and G help
  63. [07:53:55] <tantek> on more than one occasion I've heard people ask if any search engines support microformats
  64. [07:54:13] <tantek> a lot of these pages are useful to be kept just for ambient discoverability
  65. [07:54:20] <BenWard> Yeah… maybe just a #search heading under Implementations?
  66. [07:54:35] <tantek> except that doesn't get indexed as well as a 'search' page
  67. [07:54:53] <tantek> in search engines like Yahoo and Google
  68. [07:55:12] <tantek> people often search for things like "microformats search engine"
  69. [07:55:14] <tantek> or
  70. [07:55:18] <tantek> "microformats validator"
  71. [07:55:27] <BenWard> I collapsed that blasted unmaintained “notable-implementations” page the other day. I'm feeling very nervous about us having too many pages that don't get maintained properly. The quality of parts of the wiki is variable enough as it is.
  72. [07:55:46] <tantek> yeah - I didn't get the point of the notable implementations page
  73. [07:56:28] <tantek> I look at it from a usability / ambient findability point of view
  74. [07:56:42] <tantek> if people are asking / looking for something, we should have pages that they find as a result
  75. [07:57:08] <BenWard> Certainly having the major redirects supported is essential. But fragmented content ages badly.
  76. [07:57:14] <BenWard> (brb)
  77. [07:57:20] <tantek> and until "mainstream" search engines get smart enough to both a) index fragment identifiers, and b) return them in search results, fragment identifiers are insufficient
  78. [08:07:31] <tantek> AFAIK such redirects are not indexed by search engines
  79. [08:07:55] <tantek> thus moving the validators from /wiki/validators to /wiki/debugging-tools may have made the validators harder to ambiently find
  80. [08:09:53] <BenWard> Hm. Need to get that verified.
  81. [08:10:04] <BenWard> Content-wise, there's only one validator.
  82. [08:10:20] <BenWard> And the page was out of date.
  83. [08:11:39] <BenWard> If the SEO stuff is a real issue, then we'll have to remove the redirect for a intro fragment and then link through conventionally.
  84. [08:15:13] <tantek> findability is a real issue
  85. [08:15:25] <tantek> because people still search and don't find
  86. [08:15:53] <tantek> it seems like a separate page is a small price to pay for easier/better findability
  87. [08:16:10] <tantek> and yes - no major search engine supports fragment IDs in indexing or results in anything deployed
  88. [08:16:27] <tantek> Blog search engines were the first the start supporting that (e.g. Technorati) for blog posts etc.
  89. [08:16:52] <tantek> with fragment ids in both indexing and in search results that you could click/scroll to.
  90. [08:17:26] <tantek> last I checked there were at least two validators, Optimus and that hCard-specific validator.
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  92. [08:39:41] <BenWard> I disagree that multi-pages is a small price. We fail to maintain them, and that causes confusion.
  93. [08:40:37] <BenWard> One of the earliest conversations I had with Bruce Lawson was convincing him that microformats were well implemented because he'd only found the notable-implementations page and couldn't understand where the demand was coming from.
  94. [08:41:05] <BenWard> I appreciate that page was _especially_ awful, but we do struggle to maintain fragmented content.
  95. [08:41:25] <tantek> the notable-implementations page had numerous flaws - using it as a counter-example for multiple pages is a bit of a strawman
  96. [08:42:03] <tantek> take a look at what I've tried to do with the "Main article" convention (similar to Wikipedia) on http://microformats.org/wiki/search-engines
  97. [08:42:35] <tantek> I think that's a better approach, for both findability, maintainability, and overall readability
  98. [08:42:48] <tantek> (keeping things shorter in a list, etc.)
  99. [08:43:22] <BenWard> OK, that seems fairly well structured. How does that reflect to the entries for Yahoo and Google on the core Implementations page?
  100. [08:43:42] <BenWard> I'm most nervous about DRY here.
  101. [08:44:46] <tantek> I haven't attempted to iterate on /wiki/implementations in the same way
  102. [08:45:09] <tantek> trying to fix locally first, with a concrete specific example, to see how things work
  103. [08:45:39] <tantek> this is the first re-use (AFAIK) on the microformats wiki of the "Main article" idiom from Wikipedia
  104. [08:45:56] <tantek> if we think this works well, we can incorporate/recommend this pattern in /wiki/how-to-play
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  106. [08:46:54] <BenWard> Seems reasonable. I don't even refer to specific patterns at this point, just concern over DRY :) I've said that twice now, so I'm probably done now, pending further development ;-)
  107. [08:48:35] <tantek> heh
  108. [08:48:56] <tantek> just to keep bashing a bad idea
  109. [08:49:22] <tantek> the "notable-implementations" page just created an editorial maintenance task with no real/easy criteria for what was "notable"
  110. [08:49:50] <tantek> like a page created just for the sake of creating a new page (busy work?)
  111. [08:50:01] <BenWard> Oh, quite. It was awful. I dance on its redirected grave :)
  112. [08:50:43] <tantek> OTOH here is a very specifically focused page, ready for your review: http://microformats.org/wiki/google-rich-snippets-examples
  113. [08:51:06] <tantek> (fixes for all of Google's example microformats on their rich snippets documentation pages)
  114. [08:51:30] <tantek> (what I spent a few hours diligently writing up today)
  115. [08:57:36] <BenWard> Looks good at first glance. I'll give a second read tomorrow when I've less sleepy
  116. [08:57:58] <tantek> thank
  117. [08:58:02] <tantek> thanks even
  118. [08:58:25] <tantek> ok - I'll send a reply to Kavi and Ted on the list, encouraging them to add more to the "google-search" and "yahoo-search" wiki pages accordingly
  119. [08:58:41] <tantek> like it would be nice to have some good YQL documentation up there (or links to)
  120. [08:59:24] <tantek> and I'll let Kavi (and everyone else) know to take a look at the fixed examples (and verify the fixes etc.)
  121. [09:13:29] <BenWard> I'll have a word about that tomorrow, see if we can get the documentation padded out.
  122. [09:23:19] <tantek> BenWard, also re: YQL, last I checked the list of meteor impact craters mashup - the map portion appeared to not be working: http://ydntest.com/yqlmicroformatswikipedia/
  123. [09:23:35] <tantek> Perhaps you could take a look at it and ping Christian Heilmann about it?
  124. [09:26:04] <BenWard> Ah, yeah, that's not good. I'll pass that on, thanks
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  126. [09:30:30] <josephholsten> is there a microformat difference between rel-me, this-uri-is-my-identity, and this-is-a-profile-about-or-by-me?
  127. [09:32:16] <tantek> josephholten yes they mean different things, but are related.
  128. [09:32:25] <tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-me
  129. [09:32:42] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard
  130. [09:32:58] <tantek> and http://microformats.org/wiki/hcards-and-pages
  131. [09:33:50] <josephholsten> now that second link is what I was after
  132. [09:34:22] <josephholsten> foaf/rdf just seems so heavy handed for the task
  133. [09:37:39] <josephholsten> what's the best forum to stay on top of representative-hcard discussions?
  134. [09:37:51] <josephholsten> -discuss?
  135. [09:37:54] <tantek> you've found it! this channel.
  136. [09:38:12] <tantek> next best is probably the RecentChanges on the microformats wiki
  137. [09:38:15] <tantek> and last are the mailing lists
  138. [09:40:30] <tantek> the lists are currently fairly low volume, so they should be easy to keep up with as well
  139. [09:40:36] <tantek> http://microformats.org/discuss
  140. [09:43:56] <josephholsten> I've noticed the rdf folks tend to advocate uris with fragments for identifying 'real' stuff, is that a common position in posh?
  141. [09:44:23] <josephholsten> or does anyone hold that notion?
  142. [09:47:08] <tantek> josephholsten you can URIs with fragments for identifying all microformats root class names and properties using XMDP.
  143. [09:47:14] <tantek> I deliberately designed XMDP to provide URIs with fragments compatible with the conventions from the RDF community.
  144. [09:47:37] <tantek> That is, if URIs with fragments is something you want.
  145. [09:48:11] <tantek> e.g. XFN's rel="friend" is defined by the URI http://gmpg.org/xfn/11/#friend
  146. [09:48:31] <tantek> the nicer thing is, that URI is also a viewable URL which takes you directly to the definition of the value
  147. [09:48:48] <tantek> more on XMDP here: http://gmpg.org/xmdp/description
  148. [09:49:17] <josephholsten> rather, you are identified by http://tantek.com/#t while http://tantek.com/ represents a collection of links to things you author
  149. [09:50:01] <tantek> I think that's an outdated notion, frankly.
  150. [09:50:10] <josephholsten> just wondering
  151. [09:50:12] <tantek> In practice people now commonly identify with whole URLs to profiles
  152. [09:50:21] <tantek> e.g. http://tantek.com/
  153. [09:50:39] <tantek> or Twitter handles like @t - which are easily "resolved" to URLs like http://twitter.com/t/
  154. [09:50:41] <josephholsten> it's an interesting academic discussion
  155. [09:50:59] <tantek> the 'stuff as fragments' is academic yes
  156. [09:51:13] <josephholsten> but only if you want formally provable reasoning
  157. [09:51:17] <tantek> whereas people actually do use/share URLs without fragments as identifiers for themselves in *practice*
  158. [09:51:25] <josephholsten> exactly
  159. [09:51:33] <tantek> that syntactic debate is over for all practical purposes
  160. [09:51:48] <tantek> but if you're referring to vocabulary, see above about XMDP
  161. [09:54:08] <josephholsten> I was just hoping my representative hcard wouldn't have to be as redundant as joseph@josephholsten.com
  162. [09:55:48] <tantek> presumably your email address is just one facet of your online identity
  163. [10:05:12] <tantek> josephholsten, http://josephholsten.com/ is an impressive identity hub!
  164. [10:05:55] <tantek> you should definitely consider adding it to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild
  165. [10:07:39] <josephholsten> I guess http://josephholsten.com/resume might be worth adding as well
  166. [10:07:58] <josephholsten> any word of resume importers yet?
  167. [10:09:46] <josephholsten> wow, what a page in need of a gardener
  168. [10:14:56] <josephholsten> what's the protocol for adding to the categorized section?
  169. [10:15:01] <josephholsten> no talk page?
  170. [10:32:59] <tantek> no news of hResume importers yet, though I wouldn't be surprised if several job sites were quietly crawling hResumes in the wild. this is a good place to check for hResume implementations: http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume#Implementations
  171. [10:34:25] <tantek> re wiki categories, see http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play #17
  172. [10:34:41] <tantek> ok time for some sleep for me. back in a few hours.
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.