IRC Log for #microformats on 2005-11-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  7. [04:05:32] <dchud> hello, anyone around for a simple question?
  8. [04:06:56] <dchud> just wondering if anybody's working on a format for identifiers.
  9. [04:12:29] <factoryjoe> eh?
  10. [04:12:36] <factoryjoe> what are we identifying?
  11. [04:12:57] <dchud> could be anything.
  12. [04:13:02] <factoryjoe> example?
  13. [04:13:09] <dchud> sure, got a few
  14. [04:13:28] <factoryjoe> ok
  15. [04:13:28] <dchud> we have this thing called "COinS" which wraps another thing called "OpenURL", machine-metadata
  16. [04:13:50] <dchud> one way we're using it is to surface object identifiers for further processing
  17. [04:14:33] <factoryjoe> can you degeekify that?
  18. [04:14:49] <dchud> so, like, you're browsing photos at flickr or anything at amazon and you want to pull metadata for the items into some other system
  19. [04:14:53] <dchud> heh yeah sorry
  20. [04:15:46] <dchud> i deal with library (books on shelves kinds of libraries) software so we have gazillions of complex metadata records buried in systems
  21. [04:16:05] <dchud> and we're hacking up ways to provide access to that data from public interfaces
  22. [04:16:31] <dchud> the key thing for that seems to be identifying the items (like, in browse lists, or search results) in some consistent way
  23. [04:17:57] <factoryjoe> sure
  24. [04:18:15] <factoryjoe> it sounds like you're asking for ways to markup specific object types?
  25. [04:18:20] <dchud> so, just, like, "[rel|class]='identifier'" would be really helpful
  26. [04:18:23] <factoryjoe> b/c generally there's XOXO
  27. [04:18:33] <factoryjoe> hrm
  28. [04:18:51] <dchud> er, the opposite, rather, marking up anything with some useful identifier
  29. [04:19:08] <factoryjoe> like an ASIN?
  30. [04:19:13] <dchud> yeah exactly
  31. [04:19:14] <factoryjoe> i'm kind of confused
  32. [04:19:16] <factoryjoe> ah k
  33. [04:19:20] <factoryjoe> well.... hmm
  34. [04:19:50] <dchud> seems like it might be helpful inside other formats too, which is why i'm asking
  35. [04:19:55] <factoryjoe> right
  36. [04:20:05] <factoryjoe> have you checked out the wiki much?
  37. [04:20:12] <factoryjoe> i know there's work being done for media
  38. [04:20:14] <dchud> i just added xfolk to unalog, which was immediately helpful
  39. [04:20:15] <factoryjoe> like playlists, etc
  40. [04:20:22] <factoryjoe> ah, unalog
  41. [04:20:23] <factoryjoe> sure
  42. [04:20:26] <dchud> yeah i've been on it today
  43. [04:20:52] <factoryjoe> how did you benefit from it?
  44. [04:20:54] <dchud> for unalog i'm outputting these COinS things to embed identifiers, but it's "unMicroformatic"
  45. [04:21:04] <factoryjoe> :(
  46. [04:21:05] <dchud> a few ways
  47. [04:21:19] <dchud> the immediate benefit was easier javascript hacking
  48. [04:21:46] <dchud> but i also saw other things like GM scripts i'd been playing with for reblogging or whatever pop up immediately
  49. [04:21:57] <dchud> so, interoperability++ and all
  50. [04:23:57] <factoryjoe> perfect
  51. [04:24:03] <factoryjoe> yeah, that's the idea
  52. [04:24:08] <factoryjoe> but so i'm wondering also
  53. [04:24:16] <factoryjoe> maybe you could do a rel=bookmark for ASIN or something
  54. [04:24:32] <factoryjoe> not to give amazon a monopoly or whatever
  55. [04:24:41] <factoryjoe> but the identifier is not a tag
  56. [04:24:47] <dchud> heh, not that they need one
  57. [04:24:47] <factoryjoe> so rel=tag doesn't make sense
  58. [04:24:55] <factoryjoe> yet, it's similar behavior
  59. [04:25:02] <dchud> wait, which is rel=bookmark again?
  60. [04:25:16] * dchud still new to which format is which
  61. [04:25:18] <factoryjoe> a permanent location for a specific piece of content
  62. [04:25:27] <factoryjoe> like on my blog
  63. [04:25:31] <factoryjoe> factoryjoe.com/blog
  64. [04:25:43] <factoryjoe> all the links to full posts are rel=bookmark
  65. [04:25:51] <factoryjoe> since that's the permanent location of the content
  66. [04:26:26] <dchud> right
  67. [04:26:45] <dchud> ok so not to get all w3c or anything
  68. [04:26:55] <dchud> but, i really do mean "identifier" not "location" :)
  69. [04:27:56] <dchud> maybe that's naive, i dunno
  70. [04:32:35] <factoryjoe> hmm
  71. [04:32:44] <factoryjoe> are there examples that already exist?
  72. [04:33:42] <dchud> well, a propos of the use cases i care about are unalog's use of COinS for identifiers
  73. [04:33:56] <factoryjoe> i know but...
  74. [04:34:01] <dchud> basically the id is embedded in a title attr of a span[@class='Z3988']
  75. [04:34:07] <factoryjoe> ah
  76. [04:34:12] <dchud> and there are a number of interesting sites publishing COinS
  77. [04:34:22] <dchud> citeulike, hubmed, citebase
  78. [04:34:23] <factoryjoe> see i might use <abbr>
  79. [04:34:32] <dchud> hmm, yeah i was reading something about that
  80. [04:34:41] <factoryjoe> might be a weird bastardization though
  81. [04:34:45] <factoryjoe> but they do it w/ dates
  82. [04:34:51] <factoryjoe> tantek would kick me from the channel
  83. [04:34:56] <factoryjoe> coz there is a process
  84. [04:35:06] <factoryjoe> i mean, you should see how people are already linking w/ identifiers
  85. [04:35:10] <dchud> like, a machine/W3C date is in an abbr attr but the human form is in the text node?
  86. [04:35:12] <factoryjoe> rather than trying to solve it
  87. [04:35:18] <factoryjoe> correcy
  88. [04:35:19] <factoryjoe> t
  89. [04:35:24] <factoryjoe> that's how they do it in hcal
  90. [04:35:56] <dchud> well i can tell you all about the inconsistent ways hundreds of publishers are using identifiers in high-end publishing systems, but don't want to bore you :)
  91. [04:36:29] <dchud> er, do you mean that the date-in-abbr thing is in hcal?
  92. [04:36:30] <factoryjoe> that's PERFECT
  93. [04:36:43] <factoryjoe> you should literally go document all those things on the wiki
  94. [04:36:46] <dchud> yeah, that's exactly the problem
  95. [04:36:47] <factoryjoe> that's the only way to solve this
  96. [04:36:58] <factoryjoe> we're not going to come up w/ the solution just riffing on it
  97. [04:37:03] <dchud> okay, what's the best way to start
  98. [04:37:16] <dchud> like, where do i put the page, is there a boilerplate i should replicate, etc.
  99. [04:37:21] <factoryjoe> microformats.org/wiki/process
  100. [04:37:28] <factoryjoe> it should all be there
  101. [04:37:34] <factoryjoe> also, join the mailing list
  102. [04:37:44] <dchud> on it already :)
  103. [04:37:45] <factoryjoe> and summarize the problem you're trying to solve
  104. [04:37:47] <factoryjoe> cool
  105. [04:37:52] <factoryjoe> other ppl might already be working on this
  106. [04:38:38] <dchud> yeah our "industry" has some interesting "solutions" in place already
  107. [04:38:47] <factoryjoe> i'm sure
  108. [04:38:58] <factoryjoe> well, for it to become a standard MF, it needs to be simple
  109. [04:39:01] <dchud> it seems easier to try to work something out using the mf model and pressure the "industry" from the outside
  110. [04:39:03] <factoryjoe> and be based on what people are already doing
  111. [04:39:08] <factoryjoe> well
  112. [04:39:09] <factoryjoe> yes
  113. [04:39:17] <factoryjoe> i'm building a browser that will recognize MFs
  114. [04:39:22] <dchud> that "what people are already doing" bit is what gets me
  115. [04:39:29] <factoryjoe> sure sure
  116. [04:39:34] <factoryjoe> the point though is just to document what's out there
  117. [04:39:38] <dchud> right you're on the flock project?
  118. [04:39:41] <factoryjoe> we have to learn from solutions that exist
  119. [04:39:42] <factoryjoe> yep
  120. [04:40:21] <dchud> cool, i figure you must have already heard "but i don't use delicious, i use ____" already, so i won't bore you with that either
  121. [04:40:59] <dchud> so i will start on this process
  122. [04:41:21] <dchud> if you could clue me in just a bit more on how "what people are doing" is judged, i'd be really grateful
  123. [04:42:00] <dchud> like, if there are, say, hundreds of publishers publishing millions of items using inconsistent html formats
  124. [04:42:21] <dchud> and a handful of us doing it some newly consistent way, how does the new way stack up?
  125. [04:43:30] <dchud> just trying to get a sense of whether the mf community will react with something like "good luck, go away" or if that's the exact scenario other formats have been through
  126. [04:49:49] <factoryjoe> that's pretty much the way it works
  127. [04:50:00] <factoryjoe> btw, we'll be adding more bookmarking services soon
  128. [04:50:05] <factoryjoe> that's the whole plan, fyi
  129. [04:50:06] <factoryjoe> ;)
  130. [04:50:21] <factoryjoe> but yeah -- i mea, document the most "powerful" examples in the marketplace
  131. [04:50:26] <factoryjoe> the ones being used by amazon, etc
  132. [04:50:44] <factoryjoe> there are some MFs with like 30 different examples "in the wild"
  133. [04:50:48] <factoryjoe> hAtom has a bunch, for example
  134. [04:50:54] <factoryjoe> we want to learn from what other people have done
  135. [04:51:00] <factoryjoe> and then we distill what we can
  136. [04:51:20] <factoryjoe> and then crystalize that knowledge into a format that hopefully folks can adopt w/ minimal effort
  137. [04:52:47] <dchud> heh okay, glad to know that's the plan :)
  138. [04:53:20] <factoryjoe> ;)
  139. [04:53:47] <dchud> right, so, i'll work up a doc on my blog or something and post a query to mf-discuss i guess
  140. [04:53:56] <factoryjoe> well
  141. [04:54:03] <factoryjoe> i would even suggest starting on the MF wiki
  142. [04:54:07] <factoryjoe> no reason why you should
  143. [04:54:12] <factoryjoe> hThing
  144. [04:54:13] <factoryjoe> ;)
  145. [04:55:49] <dchud> okay, then maybe i can cajole edsu into helping, he's been working up cite format examples and has been watching much longer
  146. [04:56:34] <dchud> thanks for your time, been really helpful
  147. [04:56:46] <factoryjoe> no problem
  148. [04:56:49] <factoryjoe> glad i could help!
  149. [04:56:55] <dchud> :)
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  174. [06:05:00] <neuro`> Good morning
  175. [06:06:54] <bergie> morning
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  202. [14:34:58] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
  203. [15:00:35] <karlcow> http://validator.w3.org/feed/
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  211. [16:26:31] <edsu> um, i feel like a dolt -- is anyone else having trouble logging in to edit the wiki? and i cannot create a new account -- keep getting "you have not specified a valid user name"
  212. [16:27:43] <dchud> edsu: i had that problem yesterday; solution was to use my Real Name as my name, instead of a nick
  213. [16:33:48] <edsu> cool that worked, perhaps it's an elaborate turing test :)
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  215. [16:39:36] <mfbot> [[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=2917 * Ed Summers * (+12) Example -
  216. [16:40:32] <mfbot> [[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=2918 * Ed Summers * (+7) missing some closing spans
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  218. [16:48:22] <jibot> RobertBachmann is in Austria
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  222. [17:13:15] <jibot> rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
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  229. [18:33:39] <neuro`> hi
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  232. [18:39:40] <jibot> RobertBachmann is in Austria
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  237. [19:13:02] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/
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  239. [19:17:36] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  240. [19:43:31] <Tantek> hey hober
  241. [19:43:31] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  242. [19:43:31] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  243. [19:43:50] <Tantek> I met your friend Jessica Richman the other day
  244. [19:46:01] <neuro`> Hi Tantek
  245. [19:46:06] <neuro`> hi hober
  246. [19:53:15] <hober> yo
  247. [19:53:38] <hober> yeah, brian mentioned that when he got back to the office
  248. [19:54:21] <hober> she's one of the most high-energy, always-happy/optimistic people I know
  249. [19:57:48] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-24-6-66-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  250. [19:57:48] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina
  251. [20:04:05] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  252. [20:07:39] <RobertBachmann> goolebase--
  253. [20:07:48] <RobertBachmann> ups. that shoud be
  254. [20:07:53] <RobertBachmann> googlebase--
  255. [20:12:01] * markp (n=chatzill@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]")
  256. [20:13:58] <RobertBachmann> regarding googl base:T he internet - or at least the web is decentralised. I see no long term benefits in such centralised solutions.
  257. [20:29:44] * danja (i=DannyAye@host217-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit ("Ciao!")
  258. [20:35:25] * dchud (n=dlc33@sildin.med.yale.edu) has left #microformats
  259. [20:35:41] * amanuelPB (n=amanuel@d150-141-166.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  260. [20:50:34] <dglazkov> let googlebase + microformats = love
  261. [20:50:50] <dglazkov> get great-potential
  262. [20:58:17] * hober (n=ted@rrcs-67-52-157-90.west.biz.rr.com) Quit ("nil")
  263. [20:58:30] * dglazkov is implementing Trackback spec
  264. [20:58:35] <dglazkov> oh horror!
  265. [20:58:44] <RobertBachmann> I think they (Google) aren't interessted in 'love'.
  266. [21:02:58] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2457P003.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Bye")
  267. [21:11:06] <dglazkov> that depends on how the first date goes
  268. [21:17:06] <factoryjoe> Tantek: http://www.flickr.com/photos/trufflepig/65625329/
  269. [21:19:30] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  270. [21:23:41] <dglazkov> does anybody know where to find trackback experts?
  271. [21:24:04] <neuro`> ask your question instead
  272. [21:24:22] <dglazkov> does error value always have to be either 0 or 1?
  273. [21:24:44] <dglazkov> and do I have to return "happy errors", i.e. HTTP 200?
  274. [21:46:46] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@216.26.240.190) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]")
  275. [21:57:07] * edsu (n=esummers@c-24-12-123-215.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit ("leaving")
  276. [22:59:11] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  277. [23:00:39] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has left #microformats
  278. [23:26:05] * rtomayko (n=rtomayko@69-168-180-186.clvdoh.adelphia.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  279. [23:31:00] * karlcow (n=karl@modemcable130.237-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  280. [23:31:17] * karlcow (n=karl@modemcable130.237-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  281. [23:43:09] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()

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