IRC Log for #microformats on 2005-11-21
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [04:05:32] <dchud>
hello, anyone around for a simple question?
- [04:06:56] <dchud>
just wondering if anybody's working on a format for identifiers.
- [04:12:29] <factoryjoe>
eh?
- [04:12:36] <factoryjoe>
what are we identifying?
- [04:12:57] <dchud>
could be anything.
- [04:13:02] <factoryjoe>
example?
- [04:13:09] <dchud>
sure, got a few
- [04:13:28] <factoryjoe>
ok
- [04:13:28] <dchud>
we have this thing called "COinS" which wraps another thing called "OpenURL", machine-metadata
- [04:13:50] <dchud>
one way we're using it is to surface object identifiers for further processing
- [04:14:33] <factoryjoe>
can you degeekify that?
- [04:14:49] <dchud>
so, like, you're browsing photos at flickr or anything at amazon and you want to pull metadata for the items into some other system
- [04:14:53] <dchud>
heh yeah sorry
- [04:15:46] <dchud>
i deal with library (books on shelves kinds of libraries) software so we have gazillions of complex metadata records buried in systems
- [04:16:05] <dchud>
and we're hacking up ways to provide access to that data from public interfaces
- [04:16:31] <dchud>
the key thing for that seems to be identifying the items (like, in browse lists, or search results) in some consistent way
- [04:17:57] <factoryjoe>
sure
- [04:18:15] <factoryjoe>
it sounds like you're asking for ways to markup specific object types?
- [04:18:20] <dchud>
so, just, like, "[rel|class]='identifier'" would be really helpful
- [04:18:23] <factoryjoe>
b/c generally there's XOXO
- [04:18:33] <factoryjoe>
hrm
- [04:18:51] <dchud>
er, the opposite, rather, marking up anything with some useful identifier
- [04:19:08] <factoryjoe>
like an ASIN?
- [04:19:13] <dchud>
yeah exactly
- [04:19:14] <factoryjoe>
i'm kind of confused
- [04:19:16] <factoryjoe>
ah k
- [04:19:20] <factoryjoe>
well.... hmm
- [04:19:50] <dchud>
seems like it might be helpful inside other formats too, which is why i'm asking
- [04:19:55] <factoryjoe>
right
- [04:20:05] <factoryjoe>
have you checked out the wiki much?
- [04:20:12] <factoryjoe>
i know there's work being done for media
- [04:20:14] <dchud>
i just added xfolk to unalog, which was immediately helpful
- [04:20:15] <factoryjoe>
like playlists, etc
- [04:20:22] <factoryjoe>
ah, unalog
- [04:20:23] <factoryjoe>
sure
- [04:20:26] <dchud>
yeah i've been on it today
- [04:20:52] <factoryjoe>
how did you benefit from it?
- [04:20:54] <dchud>
for unalog i'm outputting these COinS things to embed identifiers, but it's "unMicroformatic"
- [04:21:04] <factoryjoe>
:(
- [04:21:05] <dchud>
a few ways
- [04:21:19] <dchud>
the immediate benefit was easier javascript hacking
- [04:21:46] <dchud>
but i also saw other things like GM scripts i'd been playing with for reblogging or whatever pop up immediately
- [04:21:57] <dchud>
so, interoperability++ and all
- [04:23:57] <factoryjoe>
perfect
- [04:24:03] <factoryjoe>
yeah, that's the idea
- [04:24:08] <factoryjoe>
but so i'm wondering also
- [04:24:16] <factoryjoe>
maybe you could do a rel=bookmark for ASIN or something
- [04:24:32] <factoryjoe>
not to give amazon a monopoly or whatever
- [04:24:41] <factoryjoe>
but the identifier is not a tag
- [04:24:47] <dchud>
heh, not that they need one
- [04:24:47] <factoryjoe>
so rel=tag doesn't make sense
- [04:24:55] <factoryjoe>
yet, it's similar behavior
- [04:25:02] <dchud>
wait, which is rel=bookmark again?
- [04:25:16] * dchud still new to which format is which
- [04:25:18] <factoryjoe>
a permanent location for a specific piece of content
- [04:25:27] <factoryjoe>
like on my blog
- [04:25:31] <factoryjoe>
factoryjoe.com/blog
- [04:25:43] <factoryjoe>
all the links to full posts are rel=bookmark
- [04:25:51] <factoryjoe>
since that's the permanent location of the content
- [04:26:26] <dchud>
right
- [04:26:45] <dchud>
ok so not to get all w3c or anything
- [04:26:55] <dchud>
but, i really do mean "identifier" not "location" :)
- [04:27:56] <dchud>
maybe that's naive, i dunno
- [04:32:35] <factoryjoe>
hmm
- [04:32:44] <factoryjoe>
are there examples that already exist?
- [04:33:42] <dchud>
well, a propos of the use cases i care about are unalog's use of COinS for identifiers
- [04:33:56] <factoryjoe>
i know but...
- [04:34:01] <dchud>
basically the id is embedded in a title attr of a span[@class='Z3988']
- [04:34:07] <factoryjoe>
ah
- [04:34:12] <dchud>
and there are a number of interesting sites publishing COinS
- [04:34:22] <dchud>
citeulike, hubmed, citebase
- [04:34:23] <factoryjoe>
see i might use <abbr>
- [04:34:32] <dchud>
hmm, yeah i was reading something about that
- [04:34:41] <factoryjoe>
might be a weird bastardization though
- [04:34:45] <factoryjoe>
but they do it w/ dates
- [04:34:51] <factoryjoe>
tantek would kick me from the channel
- [04:34:56] <factoryjoe>
coz there is a process
- [04:35:06] <factoryjoe>
i mean, you should see how people are already linking w/ identifiers
- [04:35:10] <dchud>
like, a machine/W3C date is in an abbr attr but the human form is in the text node?
- [04:35:12] <factoryjoe>
rather than trying to solve it
- [04:35:18] <factoryjoe>
correcy
- [04:35:19] <factoryjoe>
t
- [04:35:24] <factoryjoe>
that's how they do it in hcal
- [04:35:56] <dchud>
well i can tell you all about the inconsistent ways hundreds of publishers are using identifiers in high-end publishing systems, but don't want to bore you :)
- [04:36:29] <dchud>
er, do you mean that the date-in-abbr thing is in hcal?
- [04:36:30] <factoryjoe>
that's PERFECT
- [04:36:43] <factoryjoe>
you should literally go document all those things on the wiki
- [04:36:46] <dchud>
yeah, that's exactly the problem
- [04:36:47] <factoryjoe>
that's the only way to solve this
- [04:36:58] <factoryjoe>
we're not going to come up w/ the solution just riffing on it
- [04:37:03] <dchud>
okay, what's the best way to start
- [04:37:16] <dchud>
like, where do i put the page, is there a boilerplate i should replicate, etc.
- [04:37:21] <factoryjoe>
microformats.org/wiki/process
- [04:37:28] <factoryjoe>
it should all be there
- [04:37:34] <factoryjoe>
also, join the mailing list
- [04:37:44] <dchud>
on it already :)
- [04:37:45] <factoryjoe>
and summarize the problem you're trying to solve
- [04:37:47] <factoryjoe>
cool
- [04:37:52] <factoryjoe>
other ppl might already be working on this
- [04:38:38] <dchud>
yeah our "industry" has some interesting "solutions" in place already
- [04:38:47] <factoryjoe>
i'm sure
- [04:38:58] <factoryjoe>
well, for it to become a standard MF, it needs to be simple
- [04:39:01] <dchud>
it seems easier to try to work something out using the mf model and pressure the "industry" from the outside
- [04:39:03] <factoryjoe>
and be based on what people are already doing
- [04:39:08] <factoryjoe>
well
- [04:39:09] <factoryjoe>
yes
- [04:39:17] <factoryjoe>
i'm building a browser that will recognize MFs
- [04:39:22] <dchud>
that "what people are already doing" bit is what gets me
- [04:39:29] <factoryjoe>
sure sure
- [04:39:34] <factoryjoe>
the point though is just to document what's out there
- [04:39:38] <dchud>
right you're on the flock project?
- [04:39:41] <factoryjoe>
we have to learn from solutions that exist
- [04:39:42] <factoryjoe>
yep
- [04:40:21] <dchud>
cool, i figure you must have already heard "but i don't use delicious, i use ____" already, so i won't bore you with that either
- [04:40:59] <dchud>
so i will start on this process
- [04:41:21] <dchud>
if you could clue me in just a bit more on how "what people are doing" is judged, i'd be really grateful
- [04:42:00] <dchud>
like, if there are, say, hundreds of publishers publishing millions of items using inconsistent html formats
- [04:42:21] <dchud>
and a handful of us doing it some newly consistent way, how does the new way stack up?
- [04:43:30] <dchud>
just trying to get a sense of whether the mf community will react with something like "good luck, go away" or if that's the exact scenario other formats have been through
- [04:49:49] <factoryjoe>
that's pretty much the way it works
- [04:50:00] <factoryjoe>
btw, we'll be adding more bookmarking services soon
- [04:50:05] <factoryjoe>
that's the whole plan, fyi
- [04:50:06] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [04:50:21] <factoryjoe>
but yeah -- i mea, document the most "powerful" examples in the marketplace
- [04:50:26] <factoryjoe>
the ones being used by amazon, etc
- [04:50:44] <factoryjoe>
there are some MFs with like 30 different examples "in the wild"
- [04:50:48] <factoryjoe>
hAtom has a bunch, for example
- [04:50:54] <factoryjoe>
we want to learn from what other people have done
- [04:51:00] <factoryjoe>
and then we distill what we can
- [04:51:20] <factoryjoe>
and then crystalize that knowledge into a format that hopefully folks can adopt w/ minimal effort
- [04:52:47] <dchud>
heh okay, glad to know that's the plan :)
- [04:53:20] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [04:53:47] <dchud>
right, so, i'll work up a doc on my blog or something and post a query to mf-discuss i guess
- [04:53:56] <factoryjoe>
well
- [04:54:03] <factoryjoe>
i would even suggest starting on the MF wiki
- [04:54:07] <factoryjoe>
no reason why you should
- [04:54:12] <factoryjoe>
hThing
- [04:54:13] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [04:55:49] <dchud>
okay, then maybe i can cajole edsu into helping, he's been working up cite format examples and has been watching much longer
- [04:56:34] <dchud>
thanks for your time, been really helpful
- [04:56:46] <factoryjoe>
no problem
- [04:56:49] <factoryjoe>
glad i could help!
- [04:56:55] <dchud>
:)
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- [06:05:00] <neuro`>
Good morning
- [06:06:54] <bergie>
morning
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- [14:34:58] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
- [15:00:35] <karlcow>
http://validator.w3.org/feed/
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- [16:26:31] <edsu>
um, i feel like a dolt -- is anyone else having trouble logging in to edit the wiki? and i cannot create a new account -- keep getting "you have not specified a valid user name"
- [16:27:43] <dchud>
edsu: i had that problem yesterday; solution was to use my Real Name as my name, instead of a nick
- [16:33:48] <edsu>
cool that worked, perhaps it's an elaborate turing test :)
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- [16:39:36] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=2917 * Ed Summers * (+12) Example -
- [16:40:32] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=2918 * Ed Summers * (+7) missing some closing spans
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- [16:48:22] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is in Austria
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- [17:13:15] <jibot>
rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
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- [18:33:39] <neuro`>
hi
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- [18:39:40] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is in Austria
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- [19:13:02] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/
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- [19:43:31] <Tantek>
hey hober
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- [19:43:31] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [19:43:50] <Tantek>
I met your friend Jessica Richman the other day
- [19:46:01] <neuro`>
Hi Tantek
- [19:46:06] <neuro`>
hi hober
- [19:53:15] <hober>
yo
- [19:53:38] <hober>
yeah, brian mentioned that when he got back to the office
- [19:54:21] <hober>
she's one of the most high-energy, always-happy/optimistic people I know
- [19:57:48] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-24-6-66-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:57:48] <jibot>
factoryjoe is Chris Messina
- [20:04:05] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
- [20:07:39] <RobertBachmann>
goolebase--
- [20:07:48] <RobertBachmann>
ups. that shoud be
- [20:07:53] <RobertBachmann>
googlebase--
- [20:12:01] * markp (n=chatzill@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]")
- [20:13:58] <RobertBachmann>
regarding googl base:T he internet - or at least the web is decentralised. I see no long term benefits in such centralised solutions.
- [20:29:44] * danja (i=DannyAye@host217-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit ("Ciao!")
- [20:35:25] * dchud (n=dlc33@sildin.med.yale.edu) has left #microformats
- [20:35:41] * amanuelPB (n=amanuel@d150-141-166.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:50:34] <dglazkov>
let googlebase + microformats = love
- [20:50:50] <dglazkov>
get great-potential
- [20:58:17] * hober (n=ted@rrcs-67-52-157-90.west.biz.rr.com) Quit ("nil")
- [20:58:30] * dglazkov is implementing Trackback spec
- [20:58:35] <dglazkov>
oh horror!
- [20:58:44] <RobertBachmann>
I think they (Google) aren't interessted in 'love'.
- [21:02:58] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2457P003.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Bye")
- [21:11:06] <dglazkov>
that depends on how the first date goes
- [21:17:06] <factoryjoe>
Tantek: http://www.flickr.com/photos/trufflepig/65625329/
- [21:19:30] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:23:41] <dglazkov>
does anybody know where to find trackback experts?
- [21:24:04] <neuro`>
ask your question instead
- [21:24:22] <dglazkov>
does error value always have to be either 0 or 1?
- [21:24:44] <dglazkov>
and do I have to return "happy errors", i.e. HTTP 200?
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- [23:43:09] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
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