IRC Log for #microformats on 2005-11-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  4. [00:51:58] <jibot> AndyHume is Andrew D. Hume and blogs at http://thedredge.org/ and has a wonderful use of hCards for commenters (see http://thedredge.org/2005/06/using-hcards-in-your-blog/ for details)
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  12. [03:24:15] <mfbot> [[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=2988 * Tantek * (+943) new URI scheme vs. class name
  13. [03:44:29] * Remi^ (n=remi@dsl-147-248.aei.ca) Quit ()
  14. [04:36:43] <mfbot> [[hreview-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-feedback&diff=0&oldid=2989 * Tantek * (+162)
  15. [05:08:50] <mfbot> [[hreview-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-feedback&diff=0&oldid=2990 * Tantek * (+133) Tantek and John discussed hReview 0.3
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  19. [05:53:32] <jibot> rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
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  22. [08:21:55] <jibot> AndyHume is Andrew D. Hume and blogs at http://thedredge.org/ and has a wonderful use of hCards for commenters (see http://thedredge.org/2005/06/using-hcards-in-your-blog/ for details)
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  25. [09:17:16] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  26. [09:17:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  30. [12:41:12] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  31. [12:56:28] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2991 * DavidJanes * (+201) Nomenclature -
  32. [12:57:29] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2992 * DavidJanes * (+63) Nesting Rules -
  33. [12:59:20] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2993 * DavidJanes * (+618) Entry Published -
  34. [12:59:41] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2994 * DavidJanes * (+306) XMDP Profile -
  35. [13:02:07] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2995 * DavidJanes * (+377) Entry Updated -
  36. [13:14:54] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=2996 * PhilWilson * (+0) Examples in the wild - fix typo
  37. [13:28:04] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2997 * DavidJanes * (-313) Entry Summary -
  38. [13:41:27] * karlUshi (n=karl@static3.hautevitesse.com) has joined #microformats
  39. [13:41:27] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
  40. [14:39:51] * dchud (n=dlc33@sildin.med.yale.edu) has joined #microformats
  41. [14:58:20] <_fil_> hi karlUshi -- do you have an English version of your text about microformats?
  42. [15:04:20] * Remi^ (n=remi@dsl-147-248.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
  43. [15:07:57] <karlUshi> _fil_: which text?
  44. [15:11:25] <_fil_> the one where you suspect microformats to be a way of gathering & selling your personal data
  45. [15:12:16] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  46. [15:12:16] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
  47. [15:13:51] <_fil_> FWIW SPIP now uses microformats internally to exchange losely structured data between websites (like RSS, but easier)
  48. [15:23:41] <karlUshi> _fil_: I don't have an english version, but basically the argument is often the same: be microformats, be rdf, be any kind of explicit metadata, it has the good side of giving the possibility of improving information distribution in a good and a bad way
  49. [15:23:49] <karlUshi> depending on your opinions.
  50. [15:24:36] <karlUshi> What I wish for content online, is that there is a set of licenses which gives you the possibility to say "You can't use this content for *any* commercial purpose.
  51. [15:24:59] <karlUshi> And this could be done on a case by case, for example each individual posts.
  52. [15:25:29] <karlUshi> For example, I don't want that to have my data used for marketing profiles
  53. [15:25:35] <karlUshi> without my consent.
  54. [15:27:11] <_fil_> that would be an interesting extension to html
  55. [15:27:24] <karlUshi> If we want to create a metaphor for it. It's a bit of a middle age system: where you had a knight (search engine, marketing engine) which uses our work (data, writing) that we produce freely in exchange of a home and food (search results)
  56. [15:27:33] <_fil_> <span commerce="buzz off">Karl</span>
  57. [15:27:43] <karlUshi> ;)
  58. [15:28:54] <karlUshi> so in short, I want basically to leave the choice to the internet users, producers content to control the use of their contents. :)
  59. [15:29:26] <_fil_> but if law is not turned to "opt-in" instead of "opt-out", I don't think you have any chance to see that ever happen
  60. [15:29:45] <karlUshi> yep
  61. [15:30:02] <_fil_> so in my opinion it's more a matter of law than of code
  62. [15:30:06] <_fil_> in this case
  63. [15:30:09] <karlUshi> and features
  64. [15:30:18] <_fil_> or you could take to same road as parental controls :)
  65. [15:30:28] <karlUshi> no search engines give an easy solution to say don't crawl my content.
  66. [15:30:51] <_fil_> right
  67. [15:30:54] <karlUshi> Robot.txt are too complicated and not respected sometimes. For example, technorati don't respect robots.txt
  68. [15:31:08] <_fil_> technorati will go to hell then
  69. [15:31:17] <karlUshi> And blocking the IP with .htaccess is really too geeky
  70. [15:31:29] <karlUshi> not accessible to all users.
  71. [15:31:38] <karlUshi> So basically users have no choices for now.
  72. [15:32:04] <karlUshi> Freedom of choice is for me the key, if we put aside the philosophical/economical debate.
  73. [15:33:11] <_fil_> people keep pestering us (CMS authors) with requests for "spam filters" so that you don't show their email (on forums) so the emails are not harvested: this is doing a lot of harm to communication
  74. [15:33:56] <_fil_> I don't think there's a good solution
  75. [15:34:20] <_fil_> if you put stuff online, it's going to be read and linked to
  76. [15:34:27] <_fil_> and processed
  77. [15:39:35] <karlUshi> yep
  78. [15:40:02] <karlUshi> but I think there's something which is close of the photography topic
  79. [15:40:21] <_fil_> however I think you are in a position to defend the idea that <span somthing=noindex">truc chose</span> should not be indexed (or rather, "indexed out")
  80. [15:40:35] <karlUshi> you can imagine that you accept to have your photography taken in public, because anyway you are walking in a public street
  81. [15:40:55] <karlUshi> but you don't want necessary your photo used for an advertisement campaign for condoms
  82. [15:43:03] <_fil_> well, why not :)
  83. [15:45:00] <_fil_> but if we go back to the topic of microformats, it's clear that it gives refined tools for computors, and not much more for humans, *yet*
  84. [15:45:29] <_fil_> however, I think it's not going to stay that way for long
  85. [15:46:00] <_fil_> the scripts that enable to collect everyone's addresses on a forum page, for example, are a very nice human-friendly stuff
  86. [15:46:53] <_fil_> the idea that you could replace RSS and ATOM by a human-visible format is also very promising (right now almost no one is able to control - let alone modify) the RSS output of their CMS
  87. [15:48:15] <_fil_> I imagine also very nice applications in the fields of accessibility, and of multilinguism
  88. [15:49:14] <karlUshi> So I would say something quite provocative but which is in a sense quite true.
  89. [15:49:20] <karlUshi> RSS and Atom don't exist
  90. [15:49:24] <karlUshi> What I mean
  91. [15:50:02] <karlUshi> is that RSS and Atom often are used to mark up temporary information.
  92. [15:50:27] <karlUshi> The content which is marked up by RSS and Atom is doomed to disappear most of the time.
  93. [15:50:50] <karlUshi> or let's say, that the lifetime of this content is very short.
  94. [15:50:55] <karlUshi> Which can be a problem
  95. [15:51:33] <karlUshi> If there was an incentive to have permanent stores in RSS/Atom. It would be ok, but that's not the case for now.
  96. [15:52:03] <_fil_> hAtom will be this "permanent store" :)
  97. [15:52:28] <karlUshi> yes :) I had explored this idea??? two years ago?
  98. [15:53:13] <karlUshi> http://www.la-grange.net/2003/12/13#atom-spec
  99. [15:53:53] <karlUshi> that's cool that hAtom starts to exist.
  100. [15:54:23] <karlUshi> And from hAtom that will be very easy with GRDDL for example to create new representations in RDF for example
  101. [15:54:35] <_fil_> yes, so technorati can sell our personal data :)
  102. [15:54:40] <karlUshi> ;)
  103. [15:55:06] <karlUshi> not only technorati, almost all search engines do.
  104. [15:55:18] <_fil_> I'm preparing microformat-enabled no-frills templates for SPIP, do you want to join ship?
  105. [15:56:26] <_fil_> it's called hBones and we already have designed an article's page, with translation links, enclosures, authors, forums, all in mf
  106. [15:57:27] <karlUshi> _fil_: I wish I had time, but for the next month??? I will be quite busy. I'm in the process of moving from Montreal to Tokyo.
  107. [15:57:33] <karlUshi> leaving next tuesday
  108. [15:58:07] <karlUshi> and December 9 I arrive in Tokyo, will start looking for an apartment there, etc.
  109. [15:58:39] <_fil_> in a way this hBones project is a bit japanese
  110. [15:58:48] <_fil_> pay attention to detail, go minimalist
  111. [15:58:51] <_fil_> :)
  112. [15:59:19] * Tantek (n=Tantek@ppp-71-139-3-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  113. [15:59:28] <karlUshi> a bit in the topic _fil_ http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/8606
  114. [16:07:19] * karlLapUshi (n=karl@67.70.246.233) has joined #microformats
  115. [16:08:33] <karlLapUshi> grrr bad network at the W3C AC Meeting
  116. [16:11:03] * Tantek (n=Tantek@ppp-71-139-3-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  117. [16:14:50] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N097P031.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  118. [16:14:51] <jibot> RobertBachmann is in Austria
  119. [16:15:12] <RobertBachmann> hi
  120. [16:15:13] <RobertBachmann> Karl, why is robot.txt complicated?
  121. [16:16:33] <karlLapUshi> RobertBachmann: 1) ask my grand mother, my friend, to create a robot.txt :)
  122. [16:17:36] <karlLapUshi> 2) It's a well known location issue too. On shared hosted platform your local robots.txt will not be crawled aka http://example.org/coolweblog/robots.txt
  123. [16:18:15] <karlLapUshi> 3) Many search engines and well known ones like technorati for example, just don't care about robots.txt. :/
  124. [16:20:19] <_fil_> does your grandmother understand XHTML 1.1 strict? :) Karl?
  125. [16:20:31] <_fil_> I agree with you, that said
  126. [16:20:35] * karlUshi (n=karl@static3.hautevitesse.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  127. [16:21:24] <_fil_> and it should be possible to isolate blocks of a single webpage that can't be indexed
  128. [16:21:59] <_fil_> it would make search more efficient, as you would "search out" all the blogroll links and useless crap
  129. [16:28:32] <karlLapUshi> _fil_: XHTML 1.1 has only one flavour ;) it's strict by nature. :)))
  130. [16:32:34] <_fil_> that's what I keep telling my grandmother
  131. [16:35:33] <RobertBachmann> Karl, regarding the location issue. This is because robots.txt too "simple".
  132. [16:35:33] <RobertBachmann> _fil_, regarding "<span somthing=noindex">" there's a draft for this: http://microformats.org/wiki/robots-exclusion
  133. [16:38:31] * rtomayko (n=rtomayko@69-168-180-186.clvdoh.adelphia.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  136. [16:43:20] <_fil_> thanks RobertBachmann
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  139. [17:06:29] <jibot> rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
  140. [17:07:18] <karlLapUshi> lunch time :)
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  146. [17:37:46] * AndyHume (n=andyhume@193.82.96.102) has joined #microformats
  147. [17:37:46] <jibot> AndyHume is Andrew D. Hume and blogs at http://thedredge.org/ and has a wonderful use of hCards for commenters (see http://thedredge.org/2005/06/using-hcards-in-your-blog/ for details)
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  150. [17:57:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o Tantek
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  152. [18:10:13] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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  154. [18:17:19] <neuro`> Good evening
  155. [18:26:12] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@216.26.240.190) has joined #microformats
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  159. [19:15:05] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  160. [19:15:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  161. [19:16:07] <neuro`> Good evening Ryan
  162. [19:16:19] * erisfree (n=erisstas@adsl-68-124-137-161.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  163. [19:23:49] <kingryan> hey neuro
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  169. [20:05:47] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  170. [20:05:57] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  175. [20:36:50] <jibot> rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
  176. [20:37:29] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-24-6-66-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  177. [20:37:29] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina
  178. [20:57:21] * bergie (n=bergie@200.195.149.240) Quit ()
  179. [21:00:18] <mfbot> [[rest]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest&diff=0&oldid=2998 * JimAncona * (+4) Fix broken link
  180. [21:07:09] <mfbot> [[definition-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/definition-examples * Chris Messina * (+1490)
  181. [21:12:21] <factoryjoe> http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/68755089/
  182. [21:22:27] <kingryan> flock got pwned
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  195. [22:29:37] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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