IRC Log for #microformats on 2005-11-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:51:58] <jibot>
AndyHume is Andrew D. Hume and blogs at http://thedredge.org/ and has a wonderful use of hCards for commenters (see http://thedredge.org/2005/06/using-hcards-in-your-blog/ for details)
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- [03:24:15] <mfbot>
[[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=2988 * Tantek * (+943) new URI scheme vs. class name
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- [04:36:43] <mfbot>
[[hreview-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-feedback&diff=0&oldid=2989 * Tantek * (+162)
- [05:08:50] <mfbot>
[[hreview-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-feedback&diff=0&oldid=2990 * Tantek * (+133) Tantek and John discussed hReview 0.3
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- [05:53:32] <jibot>
rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
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- [08:21:55] <jibot>
AndyHume is Andrew D. Hume and blogs at http://thedredge.org/ and has a wonderful use of hCards for commenters (see http://thedredge.org/2005/06/using-hcards-in-your-blog/ for details)
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- [09:17:16] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [12:41:12] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [12:56:28] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2991 * DavidJanes * (+201) Nomenclature -
- [12:57:29] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2992 * DavidJanes * (+63) Nesting Rules -
- [12:59:20] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2993 * DavidJanes * (+618) Entry Published -
- [12:59:41] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2994 * DavidJanes * (+306) XMDP Profile -
- [13:02:07] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2995 * DavidJanes * (+377) Entry Updated -
- [13:14:54] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=2996 * PhilWilson * (+0) Examples in the wild - fix typo
- [13:28:04] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=2997 * DavidJanes * (-313) Entry Summary -
- [13:41:27] * karlUshi (n=karl@static3.hautevitesse.com) has joined #microformats
- [13:41:27] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
- [14:39:51] * dchud (n=dlc33@sildin.med.yale.edu) has joined #microformats
- [14:58:20] <_fil_>
hi karlUshi -- do you have an English version of your text about microformats?
- [15:04:20] * Remi^ (n=remi@dsl-147-248.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
- [15:07:57] <karlUshi>
_fil_: which text?
- [15:11:25] <_fil_>
the one where you suspect microformats to be a way of gathering & selling your personal data
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- [15:12:16] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
- [15:13:51] <_fil_>
FWIW SPIP now uses microformats internally to exchange losely structured data between websites (like RSS, but easier)
- [15:23:41] <karlUshi>
_fil_: I don't have an english version, but basically the argument is often the same: be microformats, be rdf, be any kind of explicit metadata, it has the good side of giving the possibility of improving information distribution in a good and a bad way
- [15:23:49] <karlUshi>
depending on your opinions.
- [15:24:36] <karlUshi>
What I wish for content online, is that there is a set of licenses which gives you the possibility to say "You can't use this content for *any* commercial purpose.
- [15:24:59] <karlUshi>
And this could be done on a case by case, for example each individual posts.
- [15:25:29] <karlUshi>
For example, I don't want that to have my data used for marketing profiles
- [15:25:35] <karlUshi>
without my consent.
- [15:27:11] <_fil_>
that would be an interesting extension to html
- [15:27:24] <karlUshi>
If we want to create a metaphor for it. It's a bit of a middle age system: where you had a knight (search engine, marketing engine) which uses our work (data, writing) that we produce freely in exchange of a home and food (search results)
- [15:27:33] <_fil_>
<span commerce="buzz off">Karl</span>
- [15:27:43] <karlUshi>
;)
- [15:28:54] <karlUshi>
so in short, I want basically to leave the choice to the internet users, producers content to control the use of their contents. :)
- [15:29:26] <_fil_>
but if law is not turned to "opt-in" instead of "opt-out", I don't think you have any chance to see that ever happen
- [15:29:45] <karlUshi>
yep
- [15:30:02] <_fil_>
so in my opinion it's more a matter of law than of code
- [15:30:06] <_fil_>
in this case
- [15:30:09] <karlUshi>
and features
- [15:30:18] <_fil_>
or you could take to same road as parental controls :)
- [15:30:28] <karlUshi>
no search engines give an easy solution to say don't crawl my content.
- [15:30:51] <_fil_>
right
- [15:30:54] <karlUshi>
Robot.txt are too complicated and not respected sometimes. For example, technorati don't respect robots.txt
- [15:31:08] <_fil_>
technorati will go to hell then
- [15:31:17] <karlUshi>
And blocking the IP with .htaccess is really too geeky
- [15:31:29] <karlUshi>
not accessible to all users.
- [15:31:38] <karlUshi>
So basically users have no choices for now.
- [15:32:04] <karlUshi>
Freedom of choice is for me the key, if we put aside the philosophical/economical debate.
- [15:33:11] <_fil_>
people keep pestering us (CMS authors) with requests for "spam filters" so that you don't show their email (on forums) so the emails are not harvested: this is doing a lot of harm to communication
- [15:33:56] <_fil_>
I don't think there's a good solution
- [15:34:20] <_fil_>
if you put stuff online, it's going to be read and linked to
- [15:34:27] <_fil_>
and processed
- [15:39:35] <karlUshi>
yep
- [15:40:02] <karlUshi>
but I think there's something which is close of the photography topic
- [15:40:21] <_fil_>
however I think you are in a position to defend the idea that <span somthing=noindex">truc chose</span> should not be indexed (or rather, "indexed out")
- [15:40:35] <karlUshi>
you can imagine that you accept to have your photography taken in public, because anyway you are walking in a public street
- [15:40:55] <karlUshi>
but you don't want necessary your photo used for an advertisement campaign for condoms
- [15:43:03] <_fil_>
well, why not :)
- [15:45:00] <_fil_>
but if we go back to the topic of microformats, it's clear that it gives refined tools for computors, and not much more for humans, *yet*
- [15:45:29] <_fil_>
however, I think it's not going to stay that way for long
- [15:46:00] <_fil_>
the scripts that enable to collect everyone's addresses on a forum page, for example, are a very nice human-friendly stuff
- [15:46:53] <_fil_>
the idea that you could replace RSS and ATOM by a human-visible format is also very promising (right now almost no one is able to control - let alone modify) the RSS output of their CMS
- [15:48:15] <_fil_>
I imagine also very nice applications in the fields of accessibility, and of multilinguism
- [15:49:14] <karlUshi>
So I would say something quite provocative but which is in a sense quite true.
- [15:49:20] <karlUshi>
RSS and Atom don't exist
- [15:49:24] <karlUshi>
What I mean
- [15:50:02] <karlUshi>
is that RSS and Atom often are used to mark up temporary information.
- [15:50:27] <karlUshi>
The content which is marked up by RSS and Atom is doomed to disappear most of the time.
- [15:50:50] <karlUshi>
or let's say, that the lifetime of this content is very short.
- [15:50:55] <karlUshi>
Which can be a problem
- [15:51:33] <karlUshi>
If there was an incentive to have permanent stores in RSS/Atom. It would be ok, but that's not the case for now.
- [15:52:03] <_fil_>
hAtom will be this "permanent store" :)
- [15:52:28] <karlUshi>
yes :) I had explored this idea??? two years ago?
- [15:53:13] <karlUshi>
http://www.la-grange.net/2003/12/13#atom-spec
- [15:53:53] <karlUshi>
that's cool that hAtom starts to exist.
- [15:54:23] <karlUshi>
And from hAtom that will be very easy with GRDDL for example to create new representations in RDF for example
- [15:54:35] <_fil_>
yes, so technorati can sell our personal data :)
- [15:54:40] <karlUshi>
;)
- [15:55:06] <karlUshi>
not only technorati, almost all search engines do.
- [15:55:18] <_fil_>
I'm preparing microformat-enabled no-frills templates for SPIP, do you want to join ship?
- [15:56:26] <_fil_>
it's called hBones and we already have designed an article's page, with translation links, enclosures, authors, forums, all in mf
- [15:57:27] <karlUshi>
_fil_: I wish I had time, but for the next month??? I will be quite busy. I'm in the process of moving from Montreal to Tokyo.
- [15:57:33] <karlUshi>
leaving next tuesday
- [15:58:07] <karlUshi>
and December 9 I arrive in Tokyo, will start looking for an apartment there, etc.
- [15:58:39] <_fil_>
in a way this hBones project is a bit japanese
- [15:58:48] <_fil_>
pay attention to detail, go minimalist
- [15:58:51] <_fil_>
:)
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- [15:59:28] <karlUshi>
a bit in the topic _fil_ http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/8606
- [16:07:19] * karlLapUshi (n=karl@67.70.246.233) has joined #microformats
- [16:08:33] <karlLapUshi>
grrr bad network at the W3C AC Meeting
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- [16:14:51] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is in Austria
- [16:15:12] <RobertBachmann>
hi
- [16:15:13] <RobertBachmann>
Karl, why is robot.txt complicated?
- [16:16:33] <karlLapUshi>
RobertBachmann: 1) ask my grand mother, my friend, to create a robot.txt :)
- [16:17:36] <karlLapUshi>
2) It's a well known location issue too. On shared hosted platform your local robots.txt will not be crawled aka http://example.org/coolweblog/robots.txt
- [16:18:15] <karlLapUshi>
3) Many search engines and well known ones like technorati for example, just don't care about robots.txt. :/
- [16:20:19] <_fil_>
does your grandmother understand XHTML 1.1 strict? :) Karl?
- [16:20:31] <_fil_>
I agree with you, that said
- [16:20:35] * karlUshi (n=karl@static3.hautevitesse.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [16:21:24] <_fil_>
and it should be possible to isolate blocks of a single webpage that can't be indexed
- [16:21:59] <_fil_>
it would make search more efficient, as you would "search out" all the blogroll links and useless crap
- [16:28:32] <karlLapUshi>
_fil_: XHTML 1.1 has only one flavour ;) it's strict by nature. :)))
- [16:32:34] <_fil_>
that's what I keep telling my grandmother
- [16:35:33] <RobertBachmann>
Karl, regarding the location issue. This is because robots.txt too "simple".
- [16:35:33] <RobertBachmann>
_fil_, regarding "<span somthing=noindex">" there's a draft for this: http://microformats.org/wiki/robots-exclusion
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- [16:43:20] <_fil_>
thanks RobertBachmann
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- [17:06:29] <jibot>
rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
- [17:07:18] <karlLapUshi>
lunch time :)
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- [17:37:46] <jibot>
AndyHume is Andrew D. Hume and blogs at http://thedredge.org/ and has a wonderful use of hCards for commenters (see http://thedredge.org/2005/06/using-hcards-in-your-blog/ for details)
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- [18:17:19] <neuro`>
Good evening
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- [19:15:05] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [19:16:07] <neuro`>
Good evening Ryan
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- [19:23:49] <kingryan>
hey neuro
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- [20:05:47] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [20:36:50] <jibot>
rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
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- [20:37:29] <jibot>
factoryjoe is Chris Messina
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- [21:00:18] <mfbot>
[[rest]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest&diff=0&oldid=2998 * JimAncona * (+4) Fix broken link
- [21:07:09] <mfbot>
[[definition-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/definition-examples * Chris Messina * (+1490)
- [21:12:21] <factoryjoe>
http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/68755089/
- [21:22:27] <kingryan>
flock got pwned
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- [22:29:37] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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