IRC Log for #microformats on 2005-12-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  26. [07:37:27] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  30. [09:05:35] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina
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  34. [10:55:24] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3024 * DavidJanes * (+7) Entry Author -
  35. [10:56:35] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3025 * DavidJanes * (+113) Entry Contibutor -
  36. [11:00:41] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3026 * DavidJanes * (+211) Discussions -
  37. [11:01:32] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3027 * DavidJanes * (+106) Recent Changes -
  38. [11:20:09] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3028 * DavidJanes * (+548) Hints and Tips -
  39. [11:51:46] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3029 * DavidJanes * (-29) Entry Title -
  40. [11:56:06] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3030 * DavidJanes * (+82) MUST -> SHOULD absolute URI
  41. [11:56:12] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3031 * DavidJanes * (+38) Recent Changes -
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  43. [12:17:25] <jibot> rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
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  46. [14:05:27] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=3032 * DavidJanes * (+525) Add RE for parsing datetime
  47. [14:08:53] <mfbot> [[introduction]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=introduction&diff=0&oldid=3033 * Tantek * (+114) See Also -
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  49. [14:10:07] <Tantek> http://24ways.org/advent/practical-microformats-with-hcard
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  62. [16:15:27] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
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  65. [16:20:18] <jibot> RobertBachmann is in Austria
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  68. [16:27:06] * Tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  69. [16:27:13] <Tantek> good morning
  70. [16:28:08] <RobertBachmann> hi
  71. [16:37:47] <RobertBachmann> I've got some questions on my mind:
  72. [16:37:47] <RobertBachmann> 1) f we say "Humans first, machines seconds" Who is meant with humans: a) Content consumers/web users b) content authors c) both?
  73. [16:37:47] <RobertBachmann> 2) Should microformat parsers honor HTML's <base>?
  74. [16:38:09] <Tantek> 1) c
  75. [16:38:27] <Tantek> and bloggers tend to be both a and b
  76. [16:47:40] <Tantek> 2) yes
  77. [16:48:01] <Tantek> or rather, the larger answer is that relative URL resolution should follow the rules of the containing document's language
  78. [16:48:12] <Tantek> which, in the case of HTML includes respecting <base>
  79. [16:51:34] <RobertBachmann> in case of Atom and RSS this would be xml:base.
  80. [16:51:34] <RobertBachmann> Is this ("relative URL resolution should follow the rules of the containing document's language") documented somewhere on the wiki?
  81. [16:52:19] <Tantek> i thought it was on hCard parsing
  82. [16:52:27] <Tantek> Robert, yes
  83. [16:52:36] <Tantek> in XHTML served as text/html it would be <base>
  84. [16:52:47] <Tantek> in XHTML served as application/xml+xhtml it would be xml:base
  85. [16:55:51] <RobertBachmann> hcard-parsing only states:
  86. [16:55:51] <RobertBachmann> "For properties that may take type URL or URI, parsers MUST handle relative URLs and normalize them to their respective absolute URLs."
  87. [16:56:32] <Tantek> ah
  88. [16:56:57] * Tantek often confuses what he has written down and what is in his head.
  89. [16:57:10] <Tantek> or what he has sent in email and what he has written on the wiki
  90. [17:00:28] <Tantek> ok, editing...
  91. [17:01:54] * factoryjoe has same problem
  92. [17:02:38] <dglazkov> factoryjoe: I am sure it's exacerbated by sleep depricvation
  93. [17:02:44] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=3034 * Tantek * (+128) parsing hCard properties and values -
  94. [17:03:03] <Tantek> thanks Robert. edit complete.
  95. [17:03:14] <factoryjoe> heh
  96. [17:03:15] <factoryjoe> that too
  97. [17:03:18] <factoryjoe> ok going now
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  103. [17:41:16] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
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  108. [18:49:45] <neuro`> evening
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  125. [20:18:16] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina
  126. [20:20:48] <dglazkov> go to bed already!
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  128. [20:21:40] <KevinMarks> dglazkov: tags should be flat
  129. [20:22:02] <KevinMarks> but you can get interesting information from co-occurence, ratehr then trying to enforce containment
  130. [20:22:35] <dglazkov> so tags != categories :)
  131. [20:23:47] <KevinMarks> well categories <tags
  132. [20:23:51] <KevinMarks> they're a subset
  133. [20:25:16] <dglazkov> subset? maybe
  134. [20:25:32] * dglazkov is using classic taxonomy definition of "category"
  135. [20:25:54] <dglazkov> anything --> being --> fish --> salmon
  136. [20:28:23] <dglazkov> categories as in "classes"
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  139. [20:35:17] <KevinMarks> right, but they are hierarchic
  140. [20:35:22] <KevinMarks> thinsg can be in one place
  141. [20:35:59] <KevinMarks> with tags, you'd just tag it with all of the hierarchic levels that apply
  142. [20:36:30] <dglazkov> hmm... classes are not boxes. Things don't have to be in one place
  143. [20:36:41] <KevinMarks> classic taxonomy is
  144. [20:37:03] <KevinMarks> it's default mode is subdivision; putting things in 2 paths is tricky
  145. [20:37:32] <dglazkov> how about:
  146. [20:37:42] <dglazkov> anything --> being --> fish --> salmon
  147. [20:37:49] <dglazkov> anything --> textured --> scaly
  148. [20:38:01] <dglazkov> two classes on the same object? :)
  149. [20:38:46] <KevinMarks> and If I have to navigate Animalia/Chordata/Actinopterygii/Salmoniformes/Salmonidae to tag it, I won't
  150. [20:39:09] <KevinMarks> right, but what do 'anything' 'being' and 'textured' add ?
  151. [20:39:26] <KevinMarks> tag it with 'scaly fish salmon' and you're done
  152. [20:39:27] <dglazkov> absolutely. But that is a user experience problem, nut taxonomy
  153. [20:39:33] <KevinMarks> right
  154. [20:39:46] <KevinMarks> my contention si that the essence of tags is about user experience
  155. [20:40:03] <KevinMarks> about reducing cognitive load so as to encourage labelling
  156. [20:40:25] <KevinMarks> so you focus on the individual thing being tagged
  157. [20:40:37] <KevinMarks> rather than on the set of all sets that it may be contained in
  158. [20:41:33] <dglazkov> can't argue with that
  159. [20:42:13] <dglazkov> where I am struggling is inference
  160. [20:42:23] <dglazkov> does "scaly" imply "textured"?
  161. [20:42:46] <dglazkov> I think the tagger should not care about that
  162. [20:43:03] <dglazkov> but the keeper of tags might
  163. [20:43:55] <KevinMarks> right
  164. [20:44:14] <KevinMarks> teh tagger looks at each thing individually
  165. [20:44:19] <KevinMarks> the tag-keeper looks at co-occurrences
  166. [20:44:32] <dglazkov> context is king? :)
  167. [20:44:37] <KevinMarks> if 'scaly' and 'textured' occur together a lot, that impleis association
  168. [20:45:52] <KevinMarks> I suspect 'salmon' is specific enough it may not gather a big cloud
  169. [20:46:35] <factoryjoe> whoa party in muF
  170. [20:46:44] <dglazkov> imho, tags are tips of the class icebergs
  171. [20:47:28] <KevinMarks> and IMO, taxonomy is an attempt to impose a hierachy on a fuzzy correlation
  172. [20:47:53] <KevinMarks> designed fro the convenience of people managing categories on pre-computer systems
  173. [20:48:18] <dustym> I feel intersections are suitable enough to imply context.
  174. [20:48:41] <dustym> Tags are cool.
  175. [20:48:47] * rtomayko (n=rtomayko@69-168-180-186.clvdoh.adelphia.net) has joined #microformats
  176. [20:48:48] <jibot> rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
  177. [20:50:07] <dglazkov> so, you feel there really aren't hierarchies?
  178. [20:50:36] <dglazkov> or it's just they're not relevant?
  179. [20:52:11] <KevinMarks> I feel there are soem natural ones (eg genetically derived taxa)
  180. [20:52:28] <KevinMarks> and some that are spurious attempts to fit the world to a model
  181. [20:52:34] <KevinMarks> (eg Dewey)
  182. [20:52:42] <dglazkov> ah
  183. [20:53:37] <dglazkov> I see
  184. [20:54:42] <dglazkov> I've built quite a few hierarchical taxonomies to know how hard they are to develop
  185. [20:54:47] <KevinMarks> right
  186. [20:54:56] <KevinMarks> and even ahrder to navigate if you didn't develop them
  187. [20:55:01] <dglazkov> and my inclination is that they're unnecessarily hard
  188. [20:55:09] <KevinMarks> try creating a yahoo group about tags
  189. [20:55:23] <KevinMarks> and find the right category for it
  190. [20:55:30] <dustym> ha
  191. [20:55:54] <dglazkov> so, we should relax and not follow Dewey's ideals :)
  192. [20:56:05] <dglazkov> but
  193. [20:56:42] <dglazkov> when the hierarchy is natural, isn't modeling it with tags kind of takes us on the same trip?
  194. [20:56:52] <jcgregorio> it's a very hard problem, one that's been worked on for a looong time
  195. [20:56:54] <jcgregorio> http://bitworking.org/news/QuickSilver__RDF_and_the_Philosophical_Language
  196. [20:58:19] <dglazkov> are you saying we can't solve it in a 10-minute chat? ;)
  197. [20:58:53] <jcgregorio> ;)
  198. [20:59:48] * dglazkov is trying to figure out how to build the next generation of tagging system. Nothing too ambitious :)
  199. [21:00:41] <dustym> I'm still on the fence with Amazon tags.
  200. [21:00:47] <factoryjoe> dglazkov: where's your work?
  201. [21:00:54] <factoryjoe> i think amazon tags is kinda weak
  202. [21:01:29] <factoryjoe> post-facto tagging on a website for things you will eventually "consume" permanately is odd
  203. [21:02:18] <factoryjoe> but that's just me
  204. [21:02:22] <factoryjoe> and i tend to be a luddite
  205. [21:05:19] <dglazkov> factoryjoe: I work for a CMS vendor...
  206. [21:05:59] <factoryjoe> erhmm
  207. [21:06:04] <dglazkov> yeah
  208. [21:06:05] <factoryjoe> that's sufficiently vaug
  209. [21:06:07] <factoryjoe> vague
  210. [21:06:41] <dglazkov> and the tagging system that I've developed for gen1 was very Dewey'ey
  211. [21:06:56] <dglazkov> hang on (grabs a screenshot)...
  212. [21:06:58] <factoryjoe> as in decimal?
  213. [21:07:01] <factoryjoe> yay!
  214. [21:08:32] <jcgregorio> ahh, now assigning a unique number to everything in the world, that's something I can get behind
  215. [21:09:01] <jcgregorio> of course, that's because I work for an RFID company :)
  216. [21:10:32] <factoryjoe> heh
  217. [21:11:28] <dglazkov> www.dimitrisplace.com/taxonomare.png
  218. [21:11:34] <dglazkov> http://www.dimitrisplace.com/taxonomare.png
  219. [21:11:44] <dglazkov> ayyee
  220. [21:12:06] <dglazkov> sorry about that!
  221. [21:12:47] <factoryjoe> ;)
  222. [21:13:12] <dglazkov> as you can see, nice and hierarchy
  223. [21:13:26] <dglazkov> A _bitch_ to develop and use
  224. [21:13:48] <factoryjoe> yeah i bet
  225. [21:14:13] <dglazkov> but the government types love this type of schtick
  226. [21:14:20] <factoryjoe> ugh
  227. [21:14:27] <factoryjoe> time to get outside the paradigm
  228. [21:14:48] <dglazkov> however, for next gen, I want to do something... well, something like technorati or flickr
  229. [21:14:56] <dglazkov> hence the discussion
  230. [21:18:02] <dglazkov> a bit offtopic, wouldn't you say?
  231. [21:18:48] <factoryjoe> anh
  232. [21:18:55] <factoryjoe> i missed the first part of the discussion
  233. [21:22:52] <dglazkov> the issue I am trying to wrap my head around is how to retain _some_ knowledge that hierarchical taxonomies provide
  234. [21:23:13] <dglazkov> and whether it's even necessary
  235. [21:24:02] <dglazkov> like, on the picture on top, if I check "Nurse", I am also a "People" and an "Employee".
  236. [21:24:54] <dglazkov> hierarchy provides the last two bits of knowledge
  237. [21:26:26] <KevinMarks> well, you can imply that if you know the organisation
  238. [21:27:10] <factoryjoe> you can also use the finder style navigation
  239. [21:27:15] <factoryjoe> faux containment
  240. [21:27:20] <factoryjoe> or develop a new UI
  241. [21:27:27] <KevinMarks> the itunes style is better
  242. [21:27:52] <KevinMarks> explore via keywords , reveal hierarchy
  243. [21:28:07] <dglazkov> right, KevinMarks, that's what I was thinking
  244. [21:28:20] <dglazkov> in terms of UX
  245. [21:28:40] <dglazkov> but I guess I am trying to stay flexible on fundamentals.
  246. [21:28:56] <dglazkov> what if the organization is unknown
  247. [21:29:17] <dglazkov> it's the capability to have both open and closed taxonomy
  248. [21:33:10] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5/undefined]")
  249. [21:35:20] <dglazkov> if I want to tag a resource with "Food" and there's no such category in the hierarchy, I want to allow it, too
  250. [21:35:33] <dglazkov> but now, the clash of paradigms occurs
  251. [21:35:51] <dglazkov> does this make any sense?
  252. [21:42:00] * amanuelPB (n=amanuel@adsl-183.niagara.com) Quit ()
  253. [21:43:18] <KevinMarks> well, if it is known in the hierarchy, you could show that so thye don't need to add the higehr levels
  254. [21:45:11] <dglazkov> in other words, if author types "Nurse", the implied cats are added, right?
  255. [21:47:37] <dglazkov> I think I have a pretty interesting idea. Think auto-complete-style text box
  256. [21:48:11] <dglazkov> as you type, the choices are shown + implied categories
  257. [21:48:38] <dglazkov> it's like the "tagging" dress for the old taxonomy lady
  258. [21:51:30] <dglazkov> thanks for the inspirational conversation, guys!
  259. [21:51:36] * dglazkov is going to go write some code
  260. [21:54:48] * edsu (n=esummers@c-24-12-123-215.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit ("leaving")
  261. [22:09:57] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  262. [22:32:09] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("bye")
  263. [22:34:10] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  264. [23:44:37] * Tantek (n=Tantek@38.114.143.193) has joined #microformats
  265. [23:46:39] * Remi^ (n=remi@dsl-140-81.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
  266. [23:47:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o Tantek
  267. [23:47:26] * Tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  268. [23:53:50] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  269. [23:56:28] * dustym (n=dustym@office.cavoksolutions.com) Quit ()

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