IRC Log for #microformats on 2005-12-06
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [07:37:27] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [09:05:35] <jibot>
factoryjoe is Chris Messina
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- [10:55:24] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3024 * DavidJanes * (+7) Entry Author -
- [10:56:35] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3025 * DavidJanes * (+113) Entry Contibutor -
- [11:00:41] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3026 * DavidJanes * (+211) Discussions -
- [11:01:32] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3027 * DavidJanes * (+106) Recent Changes -
- [11:20:09] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3028 * DavidJanes * (+548) Hints and Tips -
- [11:51:46] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3029 * DavidJanes * (-29) Entry Title -
- [11:56:06] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3030 * DavidJanes * (+82) MUST -> SHOULD absolute URI
- [11:56:12] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3031 * DavidJanes * (+38) Recent Changes -
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- [12:17:25] <jibot>
rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
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- [14:05:27] <mfbot>
[[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=3032 * DavidJanes * (+525) Add RE for parsing datetime
- [14:08:53] <mfbot>
[[introduction]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=introduction&diff=0&oldid=3033 * Tantek * (+114) See Also -
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- [14:10:07] <Tantek>
http://24ways.org/advent/practical-microformats-with-hcard
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- [16:15:27] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
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- [16:20:18] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is in Austria
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- [16:27:06] * Tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
- [16:27:13] <Tantek>
good morning
- [16:28:08] <RobertBachmann>
hi
- [16:37:47] <RobertBachmann>
I've got some questions on my mind:
- [16:37:47] <RobertBachmann>
1) f we say "Humans first, machines seconds" Who is meant with humans: a) Content consumers/web users b) content authors c) both?
- [16:37:47] <RobertBachmann>
2) Should microformat parsers honor HTML's <base>?
- [16:38:09] <Tantek>
1) c
- [16:38:27] <Tantek>
and bloggers tend to be both a and b
- [16:47:40] <Tantek>
2) yes
- [16:48:01] <Tantek>
or rather, the larger answer is that relative URL resolution should follow the rules of the containing document's language
- [16:48:12] <Tantek>
which, in the case of HTML includes respecting <base>
- [16:51:34] <RobertBachmann>
in case of Atom and RSS this would be xml:base.
- [16:51:34] <RobertBachmann>
Is this ("relative URL resolution should follow the rules of the containing document's language") documented somewhere on the wiki?
- [16:52:19] <Tantek>
i thought it was on hCard parsing
- [16:52:27] <Tantek>
Robert, yes
- [16:52:36] <Tantek>
in XHTML served as text/html it would be <base>
- [16:52:47] <Tantek>
in XHTML served as application/xml+xhtml it would be xml:base
- [16:55:51] <RobertBachmann>
hcard-parsing only states:
- [16:55:51] <RobertBachmann>
"For properties that may take type URL or URI, parsers MUST handle relative URLs and normalize them to their respective absolute URLs."
- [16:56:32] <Tantek>
ah
- [16:56:57] * Tantek often confuses what he has written down and what is in his head.
- [16:57:10] <Tantek>
or what he has sent in email and what he has written on the wiki
- [17:00:28] <Tantek>
ok, editing...
- [17:01:54] * factoryjoe has same problem
- [17:02:38] <dglazkov>
factoryjoe: I am sure it's exacerbated by sleep depricvation
- [17:02:44] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=3034 * Tantek * (+128) parsing hCard properties and values -
- [17:03:03] <Tantek>
thanks Robert. edit complete.
- [17:03:14] <factoryjoe>
heh
- [17:03:15] <factoryjoe>
that too
- [17:03:18] <factoryjoe>
ok going now
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- [17:41:16] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
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- [18:49:45] <neuro`>
evening
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- [20:18:16] <jibot>
factoryjoe is Chris Messina
- [20:20:48] <dglazkov>
go to bed already!
- [20:20:50] * Tantek (n=Tantek@38.114.143.193) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [20:21:40] <KevinMarks>
dglazkov: tags should be flat
- [20:22:02] <KevinMarks>
but you can get interesting information from co-occurence, ratehr then trying to enforce containment
- [20:22:35] <dglazkov>
so tags != categories :)
- [20:23:47] <KevinMarks>
well categories <tags
- [20:23:51] <KevinMarks>
they're a subset
- [20:25:16] <dglazkov>
subset? maybe
- [20:25:32] * dglazkov is using classic taxonomy definition of "category"
- [20:25:54] <dglazkov>
anything --> being --> fish --> salmon
- [20:28:23] <dglazkov>
categories as in "classes"
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- [20:35:17] <KevinMarks>
right, but they are hierarchic
- [20:35:22] <KevinMarks>
thinsg can be in one place
- [20:35:59] <KevinMarks>
with tags, you'd just tag it with all of the hierarchic levels that apply
- [20:36:30] <dglazkov>
hmm... classes are not boxes. Things don't have to be in one place
- [20:36:41] <KevinMarks>
classic taxonomy is
- [20:37:03] <KevinMarks>
it's default mode is subdivision; putting things in 2 paths is tricky
- [20:37:32] <dglazkov>
how about:
- [20:37:42] <dglazkov>
anything --> being --> fish --> salmon
- [20:37:49] <dglazkov>
anything --> textured --> scaly
- [20:38:01] <dglazkov>
two classes on the same object? :)
- [20:38:46] <KevinMarks>
and If I have to navigate Animalia/Chordata/Actinopterygii/Salmoniformes/Salmonidae to tag it, I won't
- [20:39:09] <KevinMarks>
right, but what do 'anything' 'being' and 'textured' add ?
- [20:39:26] <KevinMarks>
tag it with 'scaly fish salmon' and you're done
- [20:39:27] <dglazkov>
absolutely. But that is a user experience problem, nut taxonomy
- [20:39:33] <KevinMarks>
right
- [20:39:46] <KevinMarks>
my contention si that the essence of tags is about user experience
- [20:40:03] <KevinMarks>
about reducing cognitive load so as to encourage labelling
- [20:40:25] <KevinMarks>
so you focus on the individual thing being tagged
- [20:40:37] <KevinMarks>
rather than on the set of all sets that it may be contained in
- [20:41:33] <dglazkov>
can't argue with that
- [20:42:13] <dglazkov>
where I am struggling is inference
- [20:42:23] <dglazkov>
does "scaly" imply "textured"?
- [20:42:46] <dglazkov>
I think the tagger should not care about that
- [20:43:03] <dglazkov>
but the keeper of tags might
- [20:43:55] <KevinMarks>
right
- [20:44:14] <KevinMarks>
teh tagger looks at each thing individually
- [20:44:19] <KevinMarks>
the tag-keeper looks at co-occurrences
- [20:44:32] <dglazkov>
context is king? :)
- [20:44:37] <KevinMarks>
if 'scaly' and 'textured' occur together a lot, that impleis association
- [20:45:52] <KevinMarks>
I suspect 'salmon' is specific enough it may not gather a big cloud
- [20:46:35] <factoryjoe>
whoa party in muF
- [20:46:44] <dglazkov>
imho, tags are tips of the class icebergs
- [20:47:28] <KevinMarks>
and IMO, taxonomy is an attempt to impose a hierachy on a fuzzy correlation
- [20:47:53] <KevinMarks>
designed fro the convenience of people managing categories on pre-computer systems
- [20:48:18] <dustym>
I feel intersections are suitable enough to imply context.
- [20:48:41] <dustym>
Tags are cool.
- [20:48:47] * rtomayko (n=rtomayko@69-168-180-186.clvdoh.adelphia.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:48:48] <jibot>
rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
- [20:50:07] <dglazkov>
so, you feel there really aren't hierarchies?
- [20:50:36] <dglazkov>
or it's just they're not relevant?
- [20:52:11] <KevinMarks>
I feel there are soem natural ones (eg genetically derived taxa)
- [20:52:28] <KevinMarks>
and some that are spurious attempts to fit the world to a model
- [20:52:34] <KevinMarks>
(eg Dewey)
- [20:52:42] <dglazkov>
ah
- [20:53:37] <dglazkov>
I see
- [20:54:42] <dglazkov>
I've built quite a few hierarchical taxonomies to know how hard they are to develop
- [20:54:47] <KevinMarks>
right
- [20:54:56] <KevinMarks>
and even ahrder to navigate if you didn't develop them
- [20:55:01] <dglazkov>
and my inclination is that they're unnecessarily hard
- [20:55:09] <KevinMarks>
try creating a yahoo group about tags
- [20:55:23] <KevinMarks>
and find the right category for it
- [20:55:30] <dustym>
ha
- [20:55:54] <dglazkov>
so, we should relax and not follow Dewey's ideals :)
- [20:56:05] <dglazkov>
but
- [20:56:42] <dglazkov>
when the hierarchy is natural, isn't modeling it with tags kind of takes us on the same trip?
- [20:56:52] <jcgregorio>
it's a very hard problem, one that's been worked on for a looong time
- [20:56:54] <jcgregorio>
http://bitworking.org/news/QuickSilver__RDF_and_the_Philosophical_Language
- [20:58:19] <dglazkov>
are you saying we can't solve it in a 10-minute chat? ;)
- [20:58:53] <jcgregorio>
;)
- [20:59:48] * dglazkov is trying to figure out how to build the next generation of tagging system. Nothing too ambitious :)
- [21:00:41] <dustym>
I'm still on the fence with Amazon tags.
- [21:00:47] <factoryjoe>
dglazkov: where's your work?
- [21:00:54] <factoryjoe>
i think amazon tags is kinda weak
- [21:01:29] <factoryjoe>
post-facto tagging on a website for things you will eventually "consume" permanately is odd
- [21:02:18] <factoryjoe>
but that's just me
- [21:02:22] <factoryjoe>
and i tend to be a luddite
- [21:05:19] <dglazkov>
factoryjoe: I work for a CMS vendor...
- [21:05:59] <factoryjoe>
erhmm
- [21:06:04] <dglazkov>
yeah
- [21:06:05] <factoryjoe>
that's sufficiently vaug
- [21:06:07] <factoryjoe>
vague
- [21:06:41] <dglazkov>
and the tagging system that I've developed for gen1 was very Dewey'ey
- [21:06:56] <dglazkov>
hang on (grabs a screenshot)...
- [21:06:58] <factoryjoe>
as in decimal?
- [21:07:01] <factoryjoe>
yay!
- [21:08:32] <jcgregorio>
ahh, now assigning a unique number to everything in the world, that's something I can get behind
- [21:09:01] <jcgregorio>
of course, that's because I work for an RFID company :)
- [21:10:32] <factoryjoe>
heh
- [21:11:28] <dglazkov>
www.dimitrisplace.com/taxonomare.png
- [21:11:34] <dglazkov>
http://www.dimitrisplace.com/taxonomare.png
- [21:11:44] <dglazkov>
ayyee
- [21:12:06] <dglazkov>
sorry about that!
- [21:12:47] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [21:13:12] <dglazkov>
as you can see, nice and hierarchy
- [21:13:26] <dglazkov>
A _bitch_ to develop and use
- [21:13:48] <factoryjoe>
yeah i bet
- [21:14:13] <dglazkov>
but the government types love this type of schtick
- [21:14:20] <factoryjoe>
ugh
- [21:14:27] <factoryjoe>
time to get outside the paradigm
- [21:14:48] <dglazkov>
however, for next gen, I want to do something... well, something like technorati or flickr
- [21:14:56] <dglazkov>
hence the discussion
- [21:18:02] <dglazkov>
a bit offtopic, wouldn't you say?
- [21:18:48] <factoryjoe>
anh
- [21:18:55] <factoryjoe>
i missed the first part of the discussion
- [21:22:52] <dglazkov>
the issue I am trying to wrap my head around is how to retain _some_ knowledge that hierarchical taxonomies provide
- [21:23:13] <dglazkov>
and whether it's even necessary
- [21:24:02] <dglazkov>
like, on the picture on top, if I check "Nurse", I am also a "People" and an "Employee".
- [21:24:54] <dglazkov>
hierarchy provides the last two bits of knowledge
- [21:26:26] <KevinMarks>
well, you can imply that if you know the organisation
- [21:27:10] <factoryjoe>
you can also use the finder style navigation
- [21:27:15] <factoryjoe>
faux containment
- [21:27:20] <factoryjoe>
or develop a new UI
- [21:27:27] <KevinMarks>
the itunes style is better
- [21:27:52] <KevinMarks>
explore via keywords , reveal hierarchy
- [21:28:07] <dglazkov>
right, KevinMarks, that's what I was thinking
- [21:28:20] <dglazkov>
in terms of UX
- [21:28:40] <dglazkov>
but I guess I am trying to stay flexible on fundamentals.
- [21:28:56] <dglazkov>
what if the organization is unknown
- [21:29:17] <dglazkov>
it's the capability to have both open and closed taxonomy
- [21:33:10] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5/undefined]")
- [21:35:20] <dglazkov>
if I want to tag a resource with "Food" and there's no such category in the hierarchy, I want to allow it, too
- [21:35:33] <dglazkov>
but now, the clash of paradigms occurs
- [21:35:51] <dglazkov>
does this make any sense?
- [21:42:00] * amanuelPB (n=amanuel@adsl-183.niagara.com) Quit ()
- [21:43:18] <KevinMarks>
well, if it is known in the hierarchy, you could show that so thye don't need to add the higehr levels
- [21:45:11] <dglazkov>
in other words, if author types "Nurse", the implied cats are added, right?
- [21:47:37] <dglazkov>
I think I have a pretty interesting idea. Think auto-complete-style text box
- [21:48:11] <dglazkov>
as you type, the choices are shown + implied categories
- [21:48:38] <dglazkov>
it's like the "tagging" dress for the old taxonomy lady
- [21:51:30] <dglazkov>
thanks for the inspirational conversation, guys!
- [21:51:36] * dglazkov is going to go write some code
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