IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-03-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  5. [00:28:36] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  7. [00:38:59] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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  13. [01:33:03] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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  27. [02:53:16] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  40. [05:08:06] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
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  49. [06:00:17] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  53. [07:16:31] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  65. [08:46:09] <Jonnay> Is there any particular semantics behind the hFoo naming convention?
  66. [08:48:09] * izo_ (n=izo@LNeuilly-152-23-33-39.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #microformats
  67. [08:48:59] * tantek (n=tantek@81.254.238.86) has joined #microformats
  68. [08:49:00] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  69. [08:49:09] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  70. [08:52:09] <Jonnay> hi tantek
  71. [08:56:29] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-83-118.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  72. [08:58:49] <mfbot> [[include-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=5265 * Tantek * (+524) added references and related
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  75. [09:14:07] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  76. [09:14:21] <tantek> hi jonnay
  77. [09:14:49] <Jonnay> What is the reason behind the hFoo naming convention for microformats?
  78. [09:14:58] <Jonnay> or rather, some microformats.
  79. [09:18:59] <KevinMarks> h for html replacing other prefixes
  80. [09:19:11] <KevinMarks> vcard, iCal
  81. [09:19:41] <tantek> Jonnay, it started with hCard and hCalendar as those where the *H*TML versions of vCard and iCalendar.
  82. [09:19:58] <tantek> after that, we considered "hReview" as a tentative name for that spec, and it stuck.
  83. [09:20:09] <tantek> other specs appear to be following the pattern
  84. [09:20:38] <tantek> more on naming principles here: http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles
  85. [09:23:19] <Jonnay> can't believe i mised that.. thanks.
  86. [09:29:46] <Jonnay> I'm cloning the behavior of PHPRestSQL, and I noticed that it spits out straight up xml, when some micro-format-like xhtml might be more appropriate, so I am building up a 'nano-format'. (I gues sI am hesitant to call it a microformat until I do more research etc.)
  87. [09:32:01] <KevinMarks> Jonnay: look at XOXO as a possible simepl fotmat
  88. [09:32:18] <KevinMarks> but for SQL a <table> is legit IMO
  89. [09:32:27] <KevinMarks> there is a good mapping there
  90. [09:33:09] <Jonnay> That is where I went...
  91. [09:33:12] <KevinMarks> especially with <thead> etc
  92. [09:34:37] <KevinMarks> do look at the process page
  93. [09:34:55] <KevinMarks> start with examples from the wild, set up a brainstorming page etc
  94. [09:37:27] <Jonnay> Heh, its gonna be nano until I find more examples in the wild. I am not sure how much raw tables are exposed.
  95. [09:37:41] <Jonnay> Thanks for the starting place though.
  96. [09:38:04] <KevinMarks> examples are really helpful in our experience
  97. [09:42:39] <Jonnay> its my bedtime... must sleep. THanks again.
  98. [09:43:10] <Jonnay> here is the url if you are interested: http://bunny.jonnay.net/projects/Meditation/examples/MyRestSql/table.php
  99. [09:58:57] <tantek> Jonnay, until something it is a microformat, it can still be "use of semantic class names"
  100. [10:00:54] <tantek> that's what microformats were until we actually 1) named them, and 2) formed the core principles which define and distinguish microformats from just using semantic class names and new rel values
  101. [10:21:56] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  102. [10:21:57] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  117. [12:05:28] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  118. [12:32:52] <LTjake> does "Ernie P" frequent this channel?
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  122. [12:48:47] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5266 * Free * (+188976)
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  126. [12:58:33] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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  138. [15:01:14] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  140. [15:05:33] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  143. [15:26:38] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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  147. [15:33:36] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  148. [15:33:40] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  155. [16:27:47] <bewest|work> eek
  156. [16:27:49] <bewest|work> Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 598525 bytes) in /usr/local/apache2/wiki/includes/Parser.php on line 2818
  157. [16:28:05] <bewest|work> on http://www.microformats.com/wiki/Main_Page
  158. [16:35:40] * cks (n=cks@ppp-70-246-116-250.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #microformats
  159. [16:35:41] <jibot> cks is Christopher St. John and has a brain filled with inane drivel from irc chat logs
  160. [16:36:21] <cks> i may be late to the party here, but the wiki appears to be down: Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 598525 bytes) in /usr/local/apache2/wiki/includes/Parser.php on line 2818
  161. [16:36:46] <cks> well, the home page, at least
  162. [16:36:58] * izo__ (n=izo@LNeuilly-152-23-33-39.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #microformats
  163. [16:37:30] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5267 * Tantek * (-188976) manually revert damage
  164. [16:37:37] <tantek_> bewest, fixed by going back to the previous version of the page
  165. [16:37:43] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  166. [16:37:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  167. [16:37:52] <tantek> and just editing and saving
  168. [16:38:06] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges is your friend
  169. [16:38:41] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Free" with an expiry time of infinite: spammer / damaged home page
  170. [16:38:46] <cks> huh. based on the message it didn't occur to me that it was funky content. now i know...
  171. [16:39:26] <tantek> good to check Recent Changes to see whether it is a problem with a page or with the whole wiki
  172. [16:39:50] * izo_ (n=izo@LNeuilly-152-23-33-39.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  173. [16:39:53] <bewest|work> I suspected but iddn't know the url
  174. [16:40:05] <bewest|work> is there a suggestion for faq markups?
  175. [16:40:06] <tantek> yeah, I have the Recent Changes url bookmarked
  176. [16:40:19] <tantek> you mean a faq microformat?
  177. [16:40:44] <bewest|work> yes
  178. [16:40:57] <bewest|work> I always debate with myself about this
  179. [16:42:12] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats&diff=0&oldid=5268 * ChristopherStJohn * (+23) Attending -
  180. [16:43:15] <bewest|work> the debate is usually between hx:p or dl, or ul+dl (per question)
  181. [16:43:39] <bewest|work> and then of course getting some kind of toc automatically
  182. [16:43:58] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats&diff=0&oldid=5269 * ChristopherStJohn * (+0) Attending -
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  185. [16:50:49] <Jonna1> Looks like someone needs to raise the memory lijmit inside their php.ini. MediaWiki (if i remember correctly) needs about 16 megs to play happily.
  186. [16:51:01] * Jonna1 is now known as jonnay
  187. [16:54:08] <bewest|work> ok... can someone help me out here? Some people are telling me that DL is to be used only for actual terms and definitions in the sense of a dictionary
  188. [16:54:30] <bewest|work> they are saying that the example in the html4 spec that mentions dialogue is a bug in the spec and a bad example
  189. [16:54:41] <bewest|work> and that uesage of dl for the more generic pattern of key : value[s] is incorrect
  190. [16:54:48] <bewest|work> and not valuable
  191. [16:56:09] <jonnay> Sounds bunk to me.
  192. [16:56:25] <jonnay> but that is purely my opinion, I don't have any standards to back it up with
  193. [16:56:43] <jonnay> I have to run, but I'll be back in an hour to expand on that
  194. [16:59:13] <dglazkov> I think the biggest issue is that key: value can be taken to great depths. My own experimentations here: http://main.uab.edu/
  195. [16:59:35] <bewest|work> dglazkov: ok, but in #web they are telling me this is a BAD use of the tag
  196. [16:59:43] <cks> i'll throw out that the dl/dt thing didn't seem to map well for irc/im chats, and that imho the term "definition list" establishes some pretty strong expected semantics that don't match up with dialog. i'd be curious to see what the spec authors had to say about intentions (the note in the html4 spec was interesting...)
  197. [16:59:59] <dglazkov> .. and that's why it can be considered _bad_
  198. [17:00:04] <bewest|work> cks: yes, that's what I'm referring to
  199. [17:01:03] <cks> darned closed w3c lists :-)
  200. [17:01:15] <bewest|work> ok, well this conversation is specifically regarding marking up a faq
  201. [17:01:29] <bewest|work> the key : value thing seems to fit well here
  202. [17:02:52] <bewest|work> no one here is on w3c?
  203. [17:07:50] <bewest|work> ok, so it seems that dl is'nt meant as an anonymous structural container like div and span
  204. [17:08:09] <bewest|work> and as such it has a specific intent in the service of traditional dictionary terms and definitions
  205. [17:08:17] * schepers (n=schepers@81.254.238.189) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  206. [17:08:29] <bewest|work> I don't like that
  207. [17:08:41] <dglazkov> but what's a definition?
  208. [17:09:09] <pnhChris> that's kinda like asking whats an address
  209. [17:09:22] <bewest|work> dglazkov: they are saying it's something you'd look up in a dictionary
  210. [17:09:32] <bewest|work> a word and it's meaning
  211. [17:11:05] <dglazkov> them semantic bigots! ;)
  212. [17:14:10] <dglazkov> pnhChris: what _is_ an address? :)
  213. [17:14:25] <pnhChris> right
  214. [17:14:44] <bewest|work> location of a ... thing
  215. [17:15:01] <bewest|work> place,person,value
  216. [17:15:18] <pnhChris> a person is a location? in what space?
  217. [17:15:21] <pnhChris> :P
  218. [17:15:39] <bewest|work> no
  219. [17:16:10] <bewest|work> address specifies the location of a person, or thing, or space, or whatever
  220. [17:16:11] * bewest|work shrugs
  221. [17:18:23] <pnhChris> but what is an <address>
  222. [17:18:52] * pnhChris shrugs too
  223. [17:18:53] <bewest|work> oh
  224. [17:18:55] <bewest|work> well
  225. [17:19:10] <bewest|work> I use it for business addresses when I'm too lazy
  226. [17:19:21] <bewest|work> mailing addresses, rather
  227. [17:19:28] <bewest|work> started using hcard recently though
  228. [17:20:07] * izo__ (n=izo@LNeuilly-152-23-33-39.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit ()
  229. [17:26:50] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5270 * Cabbali * (+85465) Microformats Wiki -
  230. [17:28:28] * iand (n=ziciz@81.254.238.80) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  231. [17:28:41] <mfbot> [[xfn-wants]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-wants&diff=0&oldid=5271 * Cabbali * (+112170) XFN Wants -
  232. [17:30:07] <bewest|work> dglazkov: thanks for your input
  233. [17:31:12] <dglazkov> np. I didn't really input all that much ;)
  234. [17:37:15] <jonnay> Semantics are grea, the Semantic web is an awesome idea; however, it is ultimately about human readability and human usability. A key value pair is a definition, so using it in that way isn't abuse of the tag. Using it that way also (in my head) conveys more meaning then say a 2 column table, or any other markup. An address book is a specialized dictionary, defining an entities home location. Perhaps wrap the contents of your <dd
  235. [17:40:11] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
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  237. [17:44:13] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  243. [18:15:46] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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  247. [18:30:55] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  250. [18:34:05] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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  267. [19:23:30] <mfbot> [[xfn-wants]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-wants&diff=0&oldid=5272 * RobertBachmann * (-112170) Reverted edit of Cabbali, changed back to last version by Tantek
  268. [19:23:36] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5273 * RobertBachmann * (-85465) Reverted edit of Cabbali, changed back to last version by Tantek
  269. [19:24:52] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) blocked "User:Cabbali" with an expiry time of infinite: Vandalizing the main page
  270. [19:27:12] * pnhAway is now known as pnhChris
  271. [19:27:12] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  275. [19:55:39] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
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  283. [20:46:36] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  284. [20:55:17] <jonnay> So who runs the Microformts wiki?
  285. [20:56:25] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
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  289. [21:02:39] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  290. [21:02:56] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  292. [21:06:46] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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  314. [22:17:52] <jibot> amanuel_ is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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  331. [23:22:38] <jibot> cks is Christopher St. John and has a brain filled with inane drivel from irc chat logs
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.