IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-03-02
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:28:36] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [00:38:59] <jibot>
limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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- [01:33:03] <jibot>
limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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kingryan is ryan king
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karlUshi is karlcow
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- [06:00:17] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [07:16:31] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [08:46:09] <Jonnay>
Is there any particular semantics behind the hFoo naming convention?
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- [08:49:00] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [08:52:09] <Jonnay>
hi tantek
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- [08:58:49] <mfbot>
[[include-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=5265 * Tantek * (+524) added references and related
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- [09:14:07] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
- [09:14:21] <tantek>
hi jonnay
- [09:14:49] <Jonnay>
What is the reason behind the hFoo naming convention for microformats?
- [09:14:58] <Jonnay>
or rather, some microformats.
- [09:18:59] <KevinMarks>
h for html replacing other prefixes
- [09:19:11] <KevinMarks>
vcard, iCal
- [09:19:41] <tantek>
Jonnay, it started with hCard and hCalendar as those where the *H*TML versions of vCard and iCalendar.
- [09:19:58] <tantek>
after that, we considered "hReview" as a tentative name for that spec, and it stuck.
- [09:20:09] <tantek>
other specs appear to be following the pattern
- [09:20:38] <tantek>
more on naming principles here: http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles
- [09:23:19] <Jonnay>
can't believe i mised that.. thanks.
- [09:29:46] <Jonnay>
I'm cloning the behavior of PHPRestSQL, and I noticed that it spits out straight up xml, when some micro-format-like xhtml might be more appropriate, so I am building up a 'nano-format'. (I gues sI am hesitant to call it a microformat until I do more research etc.)
- [09:32:01] <KevinMarks>
Jonnay: look at XOXO as a possible simepl fotmat
- [09:32:18] <KevinMarks>
but for SQL a <table> is legit IMO
- [09:32:27] <KevinMarks>
there is a good mapping there
- [09:33:09] <Jonnay>
That is where I went...
- [09:33:12] <KevinMarks>
especially with <thead> etc
- [09:34:37] <KevinMarks>
do look at the process page
- [09:34:55] <KevinMarks>
start with examples from the wild, set up a brainstorming page etc
- [09:37:27] <Jonnay>
Heh, its gonna be nano until I find more examples in the wild. I am not sure how much raw tables are exposed.
- [09:37:41] <Jonnay>
Thanks for the starting place though.
- [09:38:04] <KevinMarks>
examples are really helpful in our experience
- [09:42:39] <Jonnay>
its my bedtime... must sleep. THanks again.
- [09:43:10] <Jonnay>
here is the url if you are interested: http://bunny.jonnay.net/projects/Meditation/examples/MyRestSql/table.php
- [09:58:57] <tantek>
Jonnay, until something it is a microformat, it can still be "use of semantic class names"
- [10:00:54] <tantek>
that's what microformats were until we actually 1) named them, and 2) formed the core principles which define and distinguish microformats from just using semantic class names and new rel values
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- [10:21:57] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [12:05:28] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
- [12:32:52] <LTjake>
does "Ernie P" frequent this channel?
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- [12:48:47] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5266 * Free * (+188976)
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- [12:58:33] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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- [15:01:14] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [15:05:33] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [15:26:38] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [15:33:36] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [16:27:47] <bewest|work>
eek
- [16:27:49] <bewest|work>
Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 598525 bytes) in /usr/local/apache2/wiki/includes/Parser.php on line 2818
- [16:28:05] <bewest|work>
on http://www.microformats.com/wiki/Main_Page
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- [16:35:41] <jibot>
cks is Christopher St. John and has a brain filled with inane drivel from irc chat logs
- [16:36:21] <cks>
i may be late to the party here, but the wiki appears to be down: Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 598525 bytes) in /usr/local/apache2/wiki/includes/Parser.php on line 2818
- [16:36:46] <cks>
well, the home page, at least
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- [16:37:30] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5267 * Tantek * (-188976) manually revert damage
- [16:37:37] <tantek_>
bewest, fixed by going back to the previous version of the page
- [16:37:43] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
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- [16:37:52] <tantek>
and just editing and saving
- [16:38:06] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges is your friend
- [16:38:41] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Free" with an expiry time of infinite: spammer / damaged home page
- [16:38:46] <cks>
huh. based on the message it didn't occur to me that it was funky content. now i know...
- [16:39:26] <tantek>
good to check Recent Changes to see whether it is a problem with a page or with the whole wiki
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- [16:39:53] <bewest|work>
I suspected but iddn't know the url
- [16:40:05] <bewest|work>
is there a suggestion for faq markups?
- [16:40:06] <tantek>
yeah, I have the Recent Changes url bookmarked
- [16:40:19] <tantek>
you mean a faq microformat?
- [16:40:44] <bewest|work>
yes
- [16:40:57] <bewest|work>
I always debate with myself about this
- [16:42:12] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats&diff=0&oldid=5268 * ChristopherStJohn * (+23) Attending -
- [16:43:15] <bewest|work>
the debate is usually between hx:p or dl, or ul+dl (per question)
- [16:43:39] <bewest|work>
and then of course getting some kind of toc automatically
- [16:43:58] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats&diff=0&oldid=5269 * ChristopherStJohn * (+0) Attending -
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- [16:50:49] <Jonna1>
Looks like someone needs to raise the memory lijmit inside their php.ini. MediaWiki (if i remember correctly) needs about 16 megs to play happily.
- [16:51:01] * Jonna1 is now known as jonnay
- [16:54:08] <bewest|work>
ok... can someone help me out here? Some people are telling me that DL is to be used only for actual terms and definitions in the sense of a dictionary
- [16:54:30] <bewest|work>
they are saying that the example in the html4 spec that mentions dialogue is a bug in the spec and a bad example
- [16:54:41] <bewest|work>
and that uesage of dl for the more generic pattern of key : value[s] is incorrect
- [16:54:48] <bewest|work>
and not valuable
- [16:56:09] <jonnay>
Sounds bunk to me.
- [16:56:25] <jonnay>
but that is purely my opinion, I don't have any standards to back it up with
- [16:56:43] <jonnay>
I have to run, but I'll be back in an hour to expand on that
- [16:59:13] <dglazkov>
I think the biggest issue is that key: value can be taken to great depths. My own experimentations here: http://main.uab.edu/
- [16:59:35] <bewest|work>
dglazkov: ok, but in #web they are telling me this is a BAD use of the tag
- [16:59:43] <cks>
i'll throw out that the dl/dt thing didn't seem to map well for irc/im chats, and that imho the term "definition list" establishes some pretty strong expected semantics that don't match up with dialog. i'd be curious to see what the spec authors had to say about intentions (the note in the html4 spec was interesting...)
- [16:59:59] <dglazkov>
.. and that's why it can be considered _bad_
- [17:00:04] <bewest|work>
cks: yes, that's what I'm referring to
- [17:01:03] <cks>
darned closed w3c lists :-)
- [17:01:15] <bewest|work>
ok, well this conversation is specifically regarding marking up a faq
- [17:01:29] <bewest|work>
the key : value thing seems to fit well here
- [17:02:52] <bewest|work>
no one here is on w3c?
- [17:07:50] <bewest|work>
ok, so it seems that dl is'nt meant as an anonymous structural container like div and span
- [17:08:09] <bewest|work>
and as such it has a specific intent in the service of traditional dictionary terms and definitions
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- [17:08:29] <bewest|work>
I don't like that
- [17:08:41] <dglazkov>
but what's a definition?
- [17:09:09] <pnhChris>
that's kinda like asking whats an address
- [17:09:22] <bewest|work>
dglazkov: they are saying it's something you'd look up in a dictionary
- [17:09:32] <bewest|work>
a word and it's meaning
- [17:11:05] <dglazkov>
them semantic bigots! ;)
- [17:14:10] <dglazkov>
pnhChris: what _is_ an address? :)
- [17:14:25] <pnhChris>
right
- [17:14:44] <bewest|work>
location of a ... thing
- [17:15:01] <bewest|work>
place,person,value
- [17:15:18] <pnhChris>
a person is a location? in what space?
- [17:15:21] <pnhChris>
:P
- [17:15:39] <bewest|work>
no
- [17:16:10] <bewest|work>
address specifies the location of a person, or thing, or space, or whatever
- [17:16:11] * bewest|work shrugs
- [17:18:23] <pnhChris>
but what is an <address>
- [17:18:52] * pnhChris shrugs too
- [17:18:53] <bewest|work>
oh
- [17:18:55] <bewest|work>
well
- [17:19:10] <bewest|work>
I use it for business addresses when I'm too lazy
- [17:19:21] <bewest|work>
mailing addresses, rather
- [17:19:28] <bewest|work>
started using hcard recently though
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- [17:26:50] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5270 * Cabbali * (+85465) Microformats Wiki -
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- [17:28:41] <mfbot>
[[xfn-wants]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-wants&diff=0&oldid=5271 * Cabbali * (+112170) XFN Wants -
- [17:30:07] <bewest|work>
dglazkov: thanks for your input
- [17:31:12] <dglazkov>
np. I didn't really input all that much ;)
- [17:37:15] <jonnay>
Semantics are grea, the Semantic web is an awesome idea; however, it is ultimately about human readability and human usability. A key value pair is a definition, so using it in that way isn't abuse of the tag. Using it that way also (in my head) conveys more meaning then say a 2 column table, or any other markup. An address book is a specialized dictionary, defining an entities home location. Perhaps wrap the contents of your <dd
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- [17:44:13] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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kingryan is ryan king
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trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [19:23:30] <mfbot>
[[xfn-wants]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-wants&diff=0&oldid=5272 * RobertBachmann * (-112170) Reverted edit of Cabbali, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [19:23:36] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5273 * RobertBachmann * (-85465) Reverted edit of Cabbali, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [19:24:52] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) blocked "User:Cabbali" with an expiry time of infinite: Vandalizing the main page
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- [19:27:12] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
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- [20:46:36] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
- [20:55:17] <jonnay>
So who runs the Microformts wiki?
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- [21:02:39] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [21:06:46] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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amanuel_ is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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- [23:22:38] <jibot>
cks is Christopher St. John and has a brain filled with inane drivel from irc chat logs
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on
chat.freenode.net
using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.
See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.