IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-03-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  4. [00:14:53] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5513 * Micah Sittig * (-198) Error confirmation and correction
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  15. [01:35:40] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
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  19. [02:06:01] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  29. [03:37:05] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  31. [03:37:39] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
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  38. [04:29:21] <mfbot> [[events/xtech-2006]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/xtech-2006&diff=0&oldid=5514 * Brian * (+241) added ideas
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  45. [04:59:41] <bewest> where is the proof of concept that lets you copy and paste hcards between IE and firefox?
  46. [04:59:50] * bewest hopes for a swift response
  47. [05:00:58] <bewest> and is there a microformat for styled citations? maybe one for chicago and one for mla, and one for APA?
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  49. [05:02:18] <KevinMarks> bewest: Ray ozzie's?
  50. [05:02:58] <KevinMarks> there are some attempts at citations; typographci styling is in the CSS realm though
  51. [05:03:23] <bewest> I mean style as in APA is a style..
  52. [05:03:31] <bewest> as in style guide for the paper...
  53. [05:03:33] <bewest> maybe it doesn't matter
  54. [05:03:38] <bewest> but I didnt' mean typographic
  55. [05:03:41] <bewest> ray ozzie?
  56. [05:04:38] <KevinMarks> http://spaces.msn.com/rayozzie/blog/cns!FB3017FBB9B2E142!285.entry
  57. [05:04:42] <bewest> great
  58. [05:04:46] <bewest> thanks!
  59. [05:06:26] <bewest> it's neat that MS is buying into the MF mindshare
  60. [05:09:19] <KevinMarks> it is, btu we are going to need to work hard with them to keep them converged
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  63. [05:24:08] * bewest evangelizes MF in #web
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  71. [07:16:25] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  73. [07:17:12] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  79. [09:27:10] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=5515 * Jax * (+74) Experiments in microformatting -
  80. [09:30:56] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=5516 * Jax * (-74) Experiments in microformatting -
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  89. [13:22:19] <mfbot> [[plant-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plant-examples&diff=0&oldid=5517 * Mark Gibbons * (+526) [http://www.crocus.co.uk/findplant/ Crocus] -
  90. [13:27:30] <mfbot> [[plant-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plant-examples&diff=0&oldid=5518 * Mark Gibbons * (+389) [http://www.paghat.com/garden.html Paghat's Garden] -
  91. [13:28:21] <mfbot> [[plant-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plant-examples&diff=0&oldid=5519 * Mark Gibbons * (-3) [http://www.paghat.com/garden.html Paghat's Garden] -
  92. [13:37:58] <mfbot> [[plant-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plant-examples&diff=0&oldid=5520 * Mark Gibbons * (+191) The Problem -
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  95. [13:52:49] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=5521 * EtanWexler * (+2519) mod_rewrite examples; URL syntax clarification; typographical, hypertextual, and editorial niceties
  96. [13:55:15] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=5522 * EtanWexler * (-6) RewriteRule correction
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  104. [15:22:48] <_fil_> I don't understand: this page http://fil.rezo.net/spip/sedna/
  105. [15:22:56] <_fil_> looks to me nicely hAtom
  106. [15:23:19] <_fil_> but hAtom2Atom does not seem to read the "author" <span>
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  109. [15:24:47] <pnhChris> hatom 0.1 requires the author to be an hcard... http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Author
  110. [15:25:19] <_fil_> I don't like it...
  111. [15:25:30] <_fil_> I don't have enough information to fill the data
  112. [15:26:00] <_fil_> is an almost empty hcard better than a small text field?
  113. [15:26:08] <pnhChris> regardless, that's why hAtom2Atom is not parsing it
  114. [15:26:16] <_fil_> ok
  115. [15:29:32] <_fil_> can I do <span class="author vcard fn">Name</span> ?
  116. [15:29:45] <_fil_> I meanb, is this compliant with the spec?
  117. [15:30:10] <_fil_> or MUST i embed <span><span><span> for each of these classes?
  118. [15:30:28] <pnhChris> i think author and the vcard stuff need to be nested
  119. [15:30:40] <pnhChris> but check the specs for how you can shorten the hcard
  120. [15:31:17] <pnhChris> wait.. i'm wrong
  121. [15:31:19] <pnhChris> think its this
  122. [15:31:20] <pnhChris> <span class="author vcard"><span class="fn">Chris</span></span>
  123. [15:31:27] <pnhChris> is the shortest you can get legally
  124. [15:31:52] * pnhChris looks around the room for confirmation
  125. [15:32:01] * _fil_ finds this too complex
  126. [15:32:07] <dglazkov> full name: FirstName LastName
  127. [15:32:21] <_fil_> dglazkov: I don't write the data
  128. [15:32:34] <_fil_> it's coming from syndicated rss stuff
  129. [15:32:52] <pnhChris> dglazkov: yes. .but there was some mf related optimizations
  130. [15:33:42] <dglazkov> this is already an optimization: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Implied_.22n.22_Optimization
  131. [15:34:08] <dglazkov> _fil_: I actually tend to agree with you. Maybe you should document this as an issue
  132. [15:34:31] <dglazkov> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues
  133. [15:34:53] <_fil_> look here
  134. [15:34:54] <_fil_> http://fil.rezo.net/spip/sedna/
  135. [15:35:05] <_fil_> the author is "Béatrice Mouédine beatrice.mouedine?tvagri.com"
  136. [15:35:10] <_fil_> the author is "Béatrice Mouédine beatrice.mouedine@@tvagri.com"
  137. [15:35:24] <_fil_> the @@ is a strange character meant to be a kind of antispam
  138. [15:35:27] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  139. [15:35:53] <_fil_> I don't really know this person, it's just data that's collected and will be passed untouched
  140. [15:35:56] <_fil_> as "the author"
  141. [15:37:02] <pnhChris> i don't disagree either.. the field often comes from places too dumb to follow these rules wel
  142. [15:37:39] <_fil_> I don't know how to explain it on the hatom-issues page
  143. [15:37:51] <_fil_> at the end? or in the "Entry Author" section?
  144. [15:39:15] <pnhChris> even cases like wordpress that allow users to present their name 1 of 6 or 8 difference ways (from username to LF, FN) .. its not just writing a template to output as hatom at that point... you have to go further upstream where the string to be displayed is chosen
  145. [15:39:21] <pnhChris> the later _fil_
  146. [15:40:01] <pnhChris> .. I also think its pointless to have 10 vcards on the same page whose only data is a generic name like "Chris"
  147. [15:40:18] <pnhChris> but its all been said before
  148. [15:40:46] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  149. [15:40:52] <_fil_> Do I add your comments?
  150. [15:41:15] <pnhChris> if you'd like
  151. [15:42:20] <pnhChris> are you putting it in the 0.1 section or the 0.2 section?
  152. [15:42:24] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  153. [15:42:45] <_fil_> Which is best?
  154. [15:44:00] <pnhChris> i'd think 0.2.. since the call was clearly made for 0.1 already.. but please if you're doing it include your example and where the data comes from
  155. [15:44:21] * pnhChris runs away... things to do
  156. [15:44:27] * pnhChris is now known as pnhAway
  157. [15:46:19] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5523 * Fil * (+1143) hAtom 0.2 - Author as hCard is too complex to *require*
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  159. [15:48:15] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5524 * Fil * (+166) author as an hcard is too much to require -
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  161. [15:52:11] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5525 * Fil * (+0) fix sedna website address
  162. [15:54:03] <_fil_> http://sedna.spip.org/sedna/ should be hAtom 0.1 compliant now (almost)
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  170. [16:50:51] <davecardwell> is http://www.webstandards.org/action/dwtf/microformats/ mentioned anywhere on the wiki yet?
  171. [16:56:57] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  172. [16:57:13] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  173. [17:01:02] <tantek> greetings
  174. [17:04:02] <dglazkov> hey tantek
  175. [17:04:27] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ()
  176. [17:05:06] <dglazkov> care if we start a "microformats-for-dummies" brainstorming page?
  177. [17:05:13] <dglazkov> on wiki that is?
  178. [17:05:22] * ichigo (n=ichigo@M1002P027.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  179. [17:08:59] <tantek> what does that mean?
  180. [17:09:17] * tantek doesn't like the "... for dummies" series. It implies too many negative connotations.
  181. [17:09:48] <tantek> wouldn't something like "getting started with ... " be better?
  182. [17:10:12] <dglazkov> wield the wordsmith's hammer! :)
  183. [17:10:25] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5526 * Tantek * (+543)
  184. [17:10:58] <dglazkov> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-March/003333.html
  185. [17:12:13] <dglazkov> I am trying to get Chris/Tara/others to collaborate
  186. [17:12:42] <tantek> Al's makes the right point.
  187. [17:12:51] <tantek> Demos speak louder than any amount of simplified wording.
  188. [17:13:05] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  189. [17:13:58] <dglazkov> I am up to anything you name it, just as long as it hits the intended audience.
  190. [17:13:59] <tantek> the best way to write an "Introduction to microformats" presentation is to start with something simple, try it on some folks, and iterate
  191. [17:14:18] <tantek> it's also good if you have experience writing "Introduction to ... " presentations in general
  192. [17:14:40] <tantek> do you know who your intended audience is? have you spoken with them?
  193. [17:15:09] <tantek> writing an introduction presentation out of good intent but in a vacuum is not likely to succeed.
  194. [17:15:22] <tantek> hence my advice: start with something simple, try it on some folks, and iterate
  195. [17:15:45] <dglazkov> you're preaching to the choir :)
  196. [17:16:04] <tantek> the "What are microformats?" presentations have done this over time, so hopefully you can iterate on the work there rather than starting from scratch: http://microformats.org/wiki/presentations
  197. [17:16:20] <tantek> and please use S5 for maximum reusability/remixability. no more PDF/PPT please.
  198. [17:17:03] <dglazkov> sounds like a plan
  199. [17:17:09] <tantek> and if you're interested in helping out many sorts of audiences, perhaps start by documenting WHO those audiences are
  200. [17:17:34] <tantek> currently microformats have been targeted at web designers, which are the folks who are most able to understand them quickly and use them
  201. [17:18:15] <tantek> this messaging also tends to work for web programmers, though they sometimes have some resistance due to misplaced dependencies on namespaces, abstractions, ideal models etc.
  202. [17:18:41] <dglazkov> right. I did a very rough outline of goals/audiences: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-March/003329.html
  203. [17:19:20] <tantek> Tara is talking about essentially crafting an *even simpler* message documenting the benefits etc. for folks who will likely never author microformats themselves, because they don't author HTML today: marketing/communication folks etc.
  204. [17:19:23] * yamico_ (n=lk@213-182-121-122.teleos-web.de) has joined #microformats
  205. [17:19:47] <dglazkov> yup. So perhaps multiple pitches, with high reuse of concepts, definitions?
  206. [17:19:59] <tantek> hmm.. the audience you describe is not one I have seen
  207. [17:20:41] <tantek> and is not the audience that Tara is talking about
  208. [17:20:52] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  209. [17:21:03] <tantek> this is the problem with the "dummies" characterization
  210. [17:21:31] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5527 * ChrisCasciano * (+869) author as an hcard is too much to require -
  211. [17:23:26] <dglazkov> my audience (as I tried to portray it, perhaps inaccurately), is heavily borrowed from this organization: http://ipsaonline.org/
  212. [17:23:37] <pnhAway> I think the "dummies" audience that I see needs to be hit will only come with more tools and explicit examples of leveraging things... but that audience are web developers not working on the scale of a flickr who might see the "added value" propositions as the win over semantics or mysterious aggregators
  213. [17:23:43] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.gen.twtelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  214. [17:23:48] * pnhAway goes back away
  215. [17:24:30] <pnhAway> (tools as in .. tails, feed readers using hatom, etc)
  216. [17:24:46] * pnhAway goes back away again
  217. [17:24:49] <dglazkov> I can still hear you pnhAway!
  218. [17:24:53] <dglazkov> :)
  219. [17:29:08] * yamico__ (n=lk@213-182-120-212.teleos-web.de) has joined #microformats
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  222. [17:32:47] <tantek> we're definitely getting to the point where we need to more and better "intro" and "how to use" and "how to author/publish" materials for a broad audience
  223. [17:33:28] <dglazkov> no kidding. I've had more friends/colleagues ask about mfs this week than... than ever
  224. [17:33:41] <tantek> dglazkov, in your goals, I don't see anything about: * how microformats are useful, * how to author/publish microformats etc.
  225. [17:33:44] <tantek> think more real world
  226. [17:33:48] <tantek> think useful *today*
  227. [17:34:08] <dglazkov> ok
  228. [17:34:25] <tantek> avoid simple "general understanding" and "bigger picture" stuff -- that stuff just causes most folks to dismiss it (whatever you're talking about) as academic, theoretical etc.
  229. [17:34:56] <tantek> and frankly, going from theory to the process of creating new microformats makes nearly no sense for begginers
  230. [17:35:11] <dglazkov> right
  231. [17:35:21] <tantek> these folks just want to get things done. they want to use microformats to improve their work, their web sites etc.
  232. [17:35:30] * pnhAway is now known as pnhChris
  233. [17:35:43] <pnhChris> aye.. .i'm not thinking of the "make another mf" audience
  234. [17:35:46] <tantek> they don't care about any kind of idealistic crusades, nor do they really have the time/patience/desire to participate in a standards process of any kind
  235. [17:36:25] <dglazkov> one thing I was wrestling with is how to bypass discussion on semantic markup and its merits, because you can probably spend a whole session just on that
  236. [17:36:29] <tantek> for most folks, the best thing to do is to show an effective demonstration, explain what happened, explain how they too can do the same thing on their sites
  237. [17:36:32] <tantek> and that's pretty much it
  238. [17:36:36] <pnhChris> ... one of the reasons I was playing with NNW yesterday was to get something I could write up as an "ok, i implemented hatom, now what"
  239. [17:37:03] <pnhChris> which I'll write up as soon as I'm happy that applescript is working/portable
  240. [17:37:05] <dglazkov> I think a good demo is a must
  241. [17:37:07] <pnhChris> probably this weekend
  242. [17:37:12] <tantek> dglazkov, semantic markup and microformats are part of the larger discussion about how do you become a modern web designer/developer
  243. [17:37:52] <tantek> and a good demo can simply be showing an existing page which is relevant to the audience, marked up with hCards, and then converted to vCards and added to an Address Book
  244. [17:38:15] <tantek> or the same with hCalendar markup, converted to iCalendar, and subscribed/displayed in a calendaring program
  245. [17:38:38] <tantek> that's really all you need to explain it. don't overthink the demo. simple, straightforward, and immediately practical is the key
  246. [17:38:48] * yamico_ (n=lk@213-182-121-122.teleos-web.de) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  247. [17:38:55] <dglazkov> I am afraid if I show this to IPSA folks, their reaction will be ".. and?"
  248. [17:39:18] <tantek> then don't worry about showing it to them. perhaps they are not ready for it yet.
  249. [17:39:32] <tantek> not all audiences will appreciate/adopt microformats at the same rate
  250. [17:39:52] <tantek> are you afraid because you have tried and gotten that reaction already?
  251. [17:40:03] <tantek> theoretical fears are useless (and often quite misplaced)
  252. [17:42:28] <dglazkov> I haven't shown the demo, but
  253. [17:42:48] <dglazkov> I have explained the idea behind it to a couple of folks here
  254. [17:43:29] <dglazkov> and I found that the biggest problem is inability to extrapolate
  255. [17:43:42] <tantek> that's the problem then
  256. [17:44:09] <tantek> explaining the idea is not nearly as effective as first demonstrating and then explaining what happened
  257. [17:44:27] <tantek> it's difficult to extrapolate from theoretical handwaving
  258. [17:44:42] <tantek> whereas it is much easier to understand a concrete demo with real data and extrapolate from there
  259. [17:44:52] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-24-6-67-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  260. [17:45:17] <tantek> you have to put in the time yourself to markup a page that is relevant to the audience with hCards, put in a link to the converter, make sure it works, and then demonstrate it
  261. [17:45:31] <tantek> no amount of "explaining the idea" will make up for that
  262. [17:46:30] <dglazkov> you're right, it will help
  263. [17:47:06] <tantek> it will more than help. it will make all the difference.
  264. [17:47:52] <dglazkov> well, as you said, let's try it, reflect, and iterate. Right?
  265. [17:50:05] <DanC> +1 "mark up a page that is relevant to the audience". meet them where they're at.
  266. [17:50:39] * DanC considers the impact of the success disaster that is mix06
  267. [17:51:05] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  268. [17:51:09] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  269. [17:51:17] <DanC> did it have to be _this week_, the week I finally managed to get the SPARQL CR transition to happen? ;-)
  270. [17:51:58] * EliasT (n=Elias@129.33.1.37) has joined #microformats
  271. [17:52:06] <DanC> yo, elias.
  272. [17:52:08] <tantek> dglazkov, right, what I'm telling you is from several iterations of having tried it, reflected, and iterated already
  273. [17:52:33] <tantek> nearly all the recent conferences where microformats have been discussed we've given such demos, and people "got it"
  274. [17:52:56] <DanC> case in point:
  275. [17:52:57] <DanC> http://austin.adactio.com/
  276. [17:53:01] <tantek> yes
  277. [17:53:21] <DanC> (which inspired me personally to hack http://dm93.org/2006geo/where.html [not a cool url] )
  278. [17:53:45] <DanC> right down to the shiner logo. Where did you find that guy, tantek?
  279. [17:54:20] <tantek> Jeremy Keith rocks
  280. [17:54:29] <tantek> he is a web designer
  281. [17:54:48] <dglazkov> damn, I wish it worked so well on PC.
  282. [17:54:51] <tantek> to all web programmers/developers out there: watch and listen to the web designers. they know more than you think.
  283. [17:55:51] <DanC> hear hear. "Quality communication on the Web is a mixture of poetry, graphic design, interactive user interface design, and database application. " -- yours truely, Jan '97. http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/9701webapps.html
  284. [17:57:13] * ichigo (n=ichigo@M1002P027.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ()
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  286. [17:59:37] <dglazkov> tantek, the demo that Al references, which one is that?
  287. [17:59:42] * DanC wonders if elias has looked at http://dm93.org/2006geo/where.html
  288. [18:00:24] <dglazkov> btw, http://austin.adactio.com fails to impress a Windows/Office user
  289. [18:01:37] <DanC> er... it doesn't work on windows?
  290. [18:02:14] <dglazkov> outlook doesn't eat multiple events/contacts
  291. [18:02:20] <dglazkov> you only get one.
  292. [18:02:31] <DanC> er... the impact of the demo doesn't rely on outlook integration
  293. [18:02:43] <DanC> I suppose to impress a windows/office user, it might...
  294. [18:02:57] <DanC> ... but the audience was shiner-drinkin' austinites, not windows/office users
  295. [18:03:21] <dglazkov> .. and hence the impact
  296. [18:03:35] <DanC> ok, point taken.
  297. [18:04:15] <DanC> tantek, did anybody write down the story he told while giving the demo? it was totally compelling... he showed that two events were close; a third one that he was considering that evening was far away, so he said "sorry, I won't make that one"
  298. [18:04:49] <DanC> I don't think he said "crawling distance" out loud, but I'm sure I wasn't the only one thinking it ;-)
  299. [18:06:22] * annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) has joined #microformats
  300. [18:07:01] <dglazkov> he annevk! long time no speak/hear/email/argue about stuff
  301. [18:07:46] <dglazkov> and by "he" I meant "hey"
  302. [18:08:17] <annevk> hi there
  303. [18:16:06] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  311. [18:53:20] <tantek> dglazkov, see event page for W3C plenary microformats session
  312. [18:54:17] <tantek> in general, you can find all this stuff by going to either http://microformats.org/wiki/events (for recent/upcoming stuff) and clicking through to the specific event pages (which then link to specific presentations and demo pages), or for past presentations: http://microformats.org/wiki/presentations
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  316. [19:06:56] * tantek taps in kingryan.
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  321. [19:38:08] <EliasT> http://dm93.org/2006geo/where.html is cool!
  322. [19:38:24] <EliasT> We are going to have to include it you know where...
  323. [19:39:11] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-24-6-67-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("->office")
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  333. [20:37:13] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5528 * RodBegbie * (+20) Exploratory discussions - adding music-examples page
  334. [20:37:34] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/music-examples * RodBegbie * (+687) Pasting in examples-template for now
  335. [20:39:55] * foolswisdom (n=lloyd@71-6-0-194-cust.telepacific.net) has joined #microformats
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  337. [20:54:46] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=5529 * RodBegbie * (+1808) Scribbled TODOs for me to fill out over the weekend
  338. [20:55:52] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5530 * TimG * (+31) Added exploratory discussion for work of art microformat
  339. [20:57:28] <mfbot> [[work-of-art]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/work-of-art * TimG * (+568) Created index page for work of art microformat exploratory discussion
  340. [21:02:14] <mfbot> [[workofart-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/workofart-examples * TimG * (+1344) Created Examples page for work of art microformat
  341. [21:04:30] <mfbot> [[workofart-formats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/workofart-formats * TimG * (+1043) Created format page for work of art microformat
  342. [21:05:36] <mfbot> [[workofart-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=workofart-examples&diff=0&oldid=5531 * TimG * (+5) Changed "Authors" to "Participants"
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  345. [21:11:29] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  346. [21:19:52] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
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  348. [21:22:43] <mfbot> [[workofart-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/workofart-brainstorming * TimG * (+3284) Created Brainstorming page for Work of Art Microformat
  349. [21:26:14] <mfbot> [[workofart-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=workofart-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5532 * TimG * (+3) minor formatting changes
  350. [21:27:10] <mfbot> [[workofart-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=workofart-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5533 * TimG * (-6) Strawman 1 -
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  354. [21:50:31] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5534 * Fil * (+470) author as an hcard is too much to require - precisions re: tantek's question
  355. [21:52:02] <mfbot> [[workofart-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=workofart-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5535 * TimG * (+204) Added a question, clarified another in Strawman 1 -
  356. [21:52:05] * cee-dub is now known as ceedub|lunch
  357. [21:52:18] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5536 * Fil * (+17) author as an hcard is too much to require - correct signature for Fil
  358. [21:53:19] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5537 * Fil * (+0) author as an hcard is too much to require - hum... wanted to preview, sorry
  359. [21:54:58] * WPU (n=chatzill@c-24-98-136-188.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  360. [21:56:49] <WPU> greetings
  361. [22:01:41] <mfbot> [[User:Fil]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Fil&diff=0&oldid=5538 * Fil * (+290)
  362. [22:02:56] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
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  367. [22:29:24] <kingryan> hi WPU
  368. [22:29:44] <WPU> hey ryan
  369. [22:29:48] <WPU> question.
  370. [22:30:34] <kingryan> yeah?
  371. [22:31:04] <WPU> if I'm making an hCard and working on an adr section . . . Can I put class="value postal-code" (postal-code as an example)?
  372. [22:31:10] <WPU> the type is a home address
  373. [22:31:31] <WPU> or is value unnecessary in that instance.
  374. [22:31:34] * annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) has joined #microformats
  375. [22:31:44] <WPU> I could post the code if that is more helpful
  376. [22:31:50] <kingryan> value is only needed when you have a type and a value
  377. [22:31:56] <kingryan> code would be good
  378. [22:32:19] * ceedub|lunch is now known as cee-dub
  379. [22:34:33] <WPU> Here we go: http://pastebin.com/620802
  380. [22:35:26] <briansuda> the 'value' portion is not needed, otherwise i think it looks good
  381. [22:36:17] <kingryan> that's what I thought, thanks brian
  382. [22:36:42] <briansuda> The only time you really need 'value' is with TEL and EMAIL (not so much email)
  383. [22:37:11] <kingryan> btw, the gmaps link is wrong
  384. [22:37:25] <briansuda> for TEL you will need a 'wrapper' class="tel" around both the type of phone number and the number itself
  385. [22:37:48] <briansuda> so you will need something like: <span class="tel">+1.234.567.8901</span>
  386. [22:38:05] <briansuda> that's valid by itself, now if you want to add a type you will need to add that inside the span
  387. [22:38:34] <briansuda> <span class="tel"><span class="type">work</span> +1.234.567.8901</span>
  388. [22:38:55] <briansuda> now we need to say what part is the value, we already marked-up which portion is the type
  389. [22:39:13] <briansuda> <span class="tel"><span class="type">work</span> <span class="value">+1.234.567.8901</span></span>
  390. [22:40:00] <briansuda> that's the most common use, i hope that helps answer your question
  391. [22:41:12] <WPU> I just made something up for gmaps, but thanks though. Thanks to both of you!
  392. [22:42:43] <WPU> This is what I had for tel: http://pastebin.com/620821
  393. [22:44:38] <WPU> Am I the only one that thinks mobile should be used instead of cell. Cell just seems like it could become deprecated a lot sooner.
  394. [22:46:23] <yamico> Over here in Germany, the people call it "Handy", but mobile (phone) is understood, whereas no one has an idea about "cell".
  395. [22:47:11] <_fil_> same stuff in France, "mobile" is good, "cell" is unknown
  396. [22:53:46] <kingryan> of course, they were all called 'cell' when vcard was started
  397. [22:54:09] <kingryan> (at least, here in the states)
  398. [22:58:14] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-70-231-236-91.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit ()
  399. [22:58:15] <hober> I think I only hear 'mobile' in advertisements here (.us); people still generally say 'cell'
  400. [22:58:45] <hober> It's like the US telcom industry has adopted the 'mobile' terminology, but their customers haven't.
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  406. [23:21:44] <WPU> I hope this gets sorted out.
  407. [23:22:39] <davecardwell> it's mobile in UK, but most people would understand cell
  408. [23:27:07] <WPU> I guess I'm just saying that there is a likely chance that the "cell" phones we are using will no longer be using cell/cellular/tower technology.
  409. [23:39:33] <kingryan> WPU, that doesn't really matter IMO
  410. [23:39:47] <kingryan> as long as people think of them as cell phones, the name's good enough
  411. [23:39:56] <KevinMarks> well, they were called mobile first
  412. [23:40:12] <KevinMarks> heck, they wer called carphones before that
  413. [23:40:27] <WPU> yeah!
  414. [23:41:13] <WPU> Again . . . I still believe mobile has the most universal and long-lasting appeal and should probably be the preferred language of future standards
  415. [23:41:33] <kingryan> we're not going to change it in hcard, we're gonna stick with vcard
  416. [23:41:41] <kingryan> terminology
  417. [23:41:51] <KevinMarks> well, eventually I predict they'll be called 'phone' and 'landline' will be the special case
  418. [23:42:22] <WPU> kingryan: I figured, I am just saying that new vcard versions should probably change cell to mobile.
  419. [23:42:31] <WPU> KevinMarks: good point
  420. [23:42:40] <kingryan> there won't be new vcard versions IMO
  421. [23:44:43] <yamico> BTW: The new top level domain is .mobi, not .cell ...
  422. [23:46:13] <kingryan> of course there's also .tel
  423. [23:46:15] <yamico> BTW^2: That TLD sucks.
  424. [23:46:29] <pnhChris> which will be obsolete before the name "cell" is
  425. [23:46:41] <pnhChris> (mobi)
  426. [23:46:50] <kingryan> tel is for "contact information", not just telephone stuffs
  427. [23:47:48] * pnhChris wants to run a new TLD:: .thatllbeanother20bucksplease
  428. [23:49:27] <pnhChris> anyway.. i'm off for the night.. have a nice weekend
  429. [23:49:32] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-71-181.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()

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