IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-04-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:45] * bpt (n=bpt@adsl-221-74-220.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  2. [00:03:57] <DanC> KevinMarks, I've got python code to generate hCalendar using kid templates... and python code to parse .ics format. I haven't glued them together yet.
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  5. [00:05:57] <DanC> I almost glued a couple pieces of code like that together for doing an expense report. But it looked like a few hour's work, so I did it by hand.
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  7. [00:06:13] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  12. [00:38:25] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=5750 * Tantek * (+52)
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  19. [01:47:02] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  22. [02:06:50] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  29. [03:02:49] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  34. [03:34:21] <bewest> anyone from SF around? I'm moving there... trying to look for places to live via craigslist
  35. [03:35:07] <bewest> is it hard to get from richmond to presidio?
  36. [03:35:23] <bewest> looks like they are next to eachother on the map
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  71. [03:39:47] * ChanServ sets mode -o KevinMarks
  72. [04:14:11] <Atamido> bewest: http://www.housingmaps.com/
  73. [04:16:35] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  74. [04:18:58] <bewest> Atamido: oooOOooo
  75. [04:27:21] * cks (n=cks@ppp-70-246-127-32.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #microformats
  76. [04:27:21] <jibot> cks is Christopher St. John and has a brain filled with inane drivel from irc chat logs
  77. [04:27:36] <cks> i'm back to playing around with irc/chat formats
  78. [04:28:03] <cks> <q> seems logical for the message part
  79. [04:28:14] <cks> but... safari won't style away the quote marks
  80. [04:29:08] <Atamido> Safari puts quotes around <p>?
  81. [04:29:59] <tantek> <q> Atamido
  82. [04:30:23] <tantek> cks, have you tried q:before,q:after { content:"" } ?
  83. [04:30:46] <cks> ahhh. no, i was using no-open-quote
  84. [04:30:51] <cks> i'll give that a try...
  85. [04:31:21] <cks> yep, that's got it. thanks!
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  88. [05:37:33] <DanC_lap> aha... it works in one case
  89. [05:37:53] <DanC_lap> I've been working on refactoring my .ics reading python code so that I can generate hCalendar using kid tempates
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  92. [06:44:01] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=5751 * Chris Messina * (+99) hCard -
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  97. [07:35:05] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  102. [08:10:18] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  114. [10:41:45] <jibot> Jonnay is a programmer, graphic designer and musician. He blogs at http://blog.jonnay.net and his music is at http://www.jonnay.net
  115. [10:45:15] * amette (n=amette@p54B8AE98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
  116. [10:45:15] <jibot> amette is http://alexander-mette.de and a TikiWiki developer
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  118. [13:03:13] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
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  121. [14:21:44] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5752 * BillyG * (+86) Examples in the wild -
  122. [14:54:08] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  123. [14:54:08] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  124. [14:56:07] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  125. [14:56:07] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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  134. [17:31:02] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  141. [18:55:10] <briansuda> in another 5 minutes or so we are planning a microformats citation meet-up anyone is more than welcome to attended, more information is available here: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-irc-meetup
  142. [18:55:34] * cks_ (n=cks@ppp-70-246-127-32.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #microformats
  143. [19:00:26] <briansuda> Anyone around here to discuss the world of bibliographic citations?
  144. [19:01:13] * darcusb (n=darcusb@cpe-24-210-249-184.woh.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  145. [19:02:57] <briansuda> darcusb, shall we start talking citations? and others can join in as they login
  146. [19:03:12] <darcusb> sure Brian
  147. [19:03:50] <briansuda> OK, we tried this sort of meet-up with hCalendar and it moved things along, so we'll try it with citations.
  148. [19:04:03] <briansuda> i think some of the stumbling blocks to getting this going are:
  149. [19:04:18] * fresco (n=fresco@CPE000625b73dbe-CM014100204413.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  150. [19:04:30] <briansuda> scope: what does this cover (books, journals, art, TV, performance, etc,...)
  151. [19:05:06] <briansuda> and i guess scope also in the sense of (bibliography, inline citatations, and article this/that stuff)
  152. [19:05:33] <darcusb> yes, scope is probably the primary issue
  153. [19:05:41] <briansuda> i think you have expressed interest in the bibliography sort of data at the end of an article to be marked-up to be moved into other formats
  154. [19:06:07] <briansuda> (also, i think minumum data need to be considered a citation, just NAME or identitfier, etc)
  155. [19:06:21] <darcusb> what do you mean by "moved into other formats"?
  156. [19:06:35] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  157. [19:06:35] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  158. [19:06:57] <briansuda> you (i think) are working on the RDF implementations, so if a microformat can easily be "moved" to RDF then all the better
  159. [19:07:08] <fresco> "other formats" being RIS, bibtex, etc, presumably
  160. [19:07:32] <briansuda> so we want to consider some of the structure and properties in these other formats as well.
  161. [19:07:49] <darcusb> OIC. I agree with those who suggest lossless conversion is a pipe dream. OTOH, it would be nice to have a format that makes good conversion easy.
  162. [19:08:35] <briansuda> agreed, partly because of the differences in all the formats we will never get a lossless system (atleast not in any decent time frame)
  163. [19:08:46] <fresco> two way, lossless conversion would be difficult, but losing as little information as possible on the way should be the aim
  164. [19:08:50] <briansuda> so... what is our scope then?
  165. [19:09:46] <fresco> i can think of two main uses: 1) citation information about the current page and 2) citation information about a cited reference
  166. [19:09:55] <darcusb> I'm of the opinion that we can define a core that covers the territory of existing formats like RIS and BibTeX, but whose structure is such that extending it beyond that becomes trivial.
  167. [19:11:07] <fresco> so we need to define the core elements
  168. [19:11:19] <briansuda> That sounds best to me, our first go at a citation microformat should be this core teritory, then we can all use it, kick the tires, and extend as needed.
  169. [19:11:39] <briansuda> So then what would be the BARE minimum to describe a citation?
  170. [19:11:53] <darcusb> We need to define the core structure (e.g. it can't be flat) and associated properties.
  171. [19:12:36] <fresco> it depends on what you're citing... title, creator, date... dublin core, basically
  172. [19:12:53] <briansuda> Oh, a quick aside - can we DEFINE a citation - i think there might be some confusion beween a citation, bibliography and other?
  173. [19:13:02] <darcusb> Yes, and extended Dublin Core for some of the key relations.
  174. [19:13:12] <fresco> a bibliography is a collection of citations
  175. [19:13:32] <darcusb> Also, there are what I call "locators" (volume, issue, page numbers, etc.).
  176. [19:13:58] <fresco> i call those locators part of the description of the "container"
  177. [19:14:06] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-37-149-178.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  178. [19:14:06] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  179. [19:14:36] <darcusb> Well, kind of the location of the citable item within the "container"?
  180. [19:14:38] <dchud> fwiw, the dublin core people themselves punted on using dublin core elements as citation keys, i wouldn't assume that it's best for that
  181. [19:15:02] * rsinger (n=rsinger@c-24-98-252-118.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  182. [19:15:05] <fresco> dchud: what was the reason?
  183. [19:15:17] <dchud> i'll pull up the ref
  184. [19:15:32] <darcusb> Well, the core of DC works for the basic properties, but not for a full citation model; not without Qualified DC.
  185. [19:15:59] <fresco> sure. it's a good definition of core attributes, that's all
  186. [19:16:21] * dsalo (n=dsalo@ip68-100-18-183.dc.dc.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  187. [19:16:27] <edsu> yeah, their still talking about them -- in fact they 'cite' our microformats effort: http://epub.mimas.ac.uk/DC/citstds.html
  188. [19:16:50] <dchud> http://dublincore.org/documents/dc-citation-guidelines/
  189. [19:17:14] <edsu> s/their/they're/
  190. [19:17:26] <dchud> <-- note the separate recommendations in section 2.
  191. [19:17:57] <fresco> so replace dc:creator with an hcard
  192. [19:18:01] <darcusb> On a definition of "citation" see if this is useful: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bibliographic_Project%27s_Developer_Page#Terminology
  193. [19:18:36] <darcusb> yes, I think hcard is appropriate for use here, and that creator is too narrow for citation needs, which often del with authors, editors, translators, etc.
  194. [19:19:02] <edsu> dchud: dcterms:bibliographicCitation is just a freeform element right, for stuffing any old citation data into
  195. [19:19:22] <dchud> edsu: yes exactly
  196. [19:19:59] <fresco> on darcusb's link above, i think this microformat covers both 'citation' and 'reference item'
  197. [19:20:01] <edsu> briansuda: so what did you and ryan have in mind for what a citation meant?
  198. [19:20:03] <briansuda> its been awhile since i looked deeply at the DC spec, but they define only 12-15 properties and then extend them, so there is a creator, but then "directory" is of TYPE creator, right?
  199. [19:20:05] <fresco> one is just a shorter form of the other
  200. [19:20:51] <briansuda> The reason i was looking for a 'definintion' was to help define the scope - i see the results of this microformat used in tree places
  201. [19:21:05] <fresco> " citation
  202. [19:21:06] <fresco> a short description that points to a fuller description elsewhere, either in a note or a reference list
  203. [19:21:08] <fresco> reference item
  204. [19:21:11] <fresco> a fuller description; also called a bibliographic entry or item"
  205. [19:21:12] <fresco> ^both of those^
  206. [19:21:30] <briansuda> 1) bibliographies, all the citations you see at the bottom of a page for reference in a document
  207. [19:21:50] <edsu> like a list of publications in a resume
  208. [19:22:21] <briansuda> 2) inline quotes and such (e.g. you gotta really read this book XYZ by John Doe)
  209. [19:22:34] <darcusb> One way to think of the distinction is between footnote marks and the footnote per se (the text at the bottom of the page).
  210. [19:23:02] <briansuda> 3) The document itself, (like a blog post, it has an author, pub data, reference [uri], edittors, etc)
  211. [19:23:07] <darcusb> A citation in that sense is typically just a plain text link.
  212. [19:23:42] <briansuda> darcusb, plain text link in reference to #2?
  213. [19:23:42] <rsinger> well, these all seem to be 'views' of the same thing
  214. [19:23:52] <rsinger> with less or more metadata, depending on the use
  215. [19:23:55] <edsu> do 1) and 2) correspond to fresco's citation and reference item
  216. [19:24:04] <fresco> yes
  217. [19:24:05] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-24-6-67-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  218. [19:24:15] <fresco> i agree with those 3
  219. [19:24:25] <rsinger> but since we're talking about 'metadata', it's more of a matter of 'style' depending on what you show where
  220. [19:24:36] <darcusb> brian: sorry, I was out of sync.
  221. [19:24:42] * edsu waves to rsinger
  222. [19:24:47] <rsinger> hi ed
  223. [19:24:47] <briansuda> i don't want to get too hung up on my 3 items, they don't in any way effect what we put into the microformat... those were just the 3 'use-cases' i for-saw
  224. [19:25:00] <briansuda> #1 was for bibliographies.
  225. [19:25:22] <briansuda> #2 was for spiders crawling the web pulling out "dicussions" about things
  226. [19:25:50] <briansuda> #3 was for sites like Cite-U-Like and stuff, they could crawl pages and FROM THE PAGE get the cite data
  227. [19:26:06] <edsu> yeah, i like those 3 myself -- i can't think of any others
  228. [19:26:09] <rsinger> i'm not sure i get #2
  229. [19:26:10] <fresco> for #3, readers can collect the citation data too
  230. [19:26:21] <briansuda> although we still need to determine what that data is, and that's why we are all here
  231. [19:26:48] <rsinger> or, rather, i'm not sure how #2 is the same as the others
  232. [19:27:04] <fresco> #2 is just a minimal form of #1, really. it could be just the same, depending on whether you're allowed to have hidden data.
  233. [19:27:34] <rsinger> ok
  234. [19:27:39] <edsu> fresco: yeah, that 's what i was thinking too
  235. [19:27:41] <briansuda> #2, might be used for something like a blog about an oprah book club. Each reader will mark-up their book reference with our citation microformat... then we can semantically connect the two because they have the same ISBN or REF or signature, etc...
  236. [19:27:42] <rsinger> so, to me, they still all sound the same
  237. [19:28:07] <rsinger> and we have two main sticking points
  238. [19:28:13] <rsinger> presentation
  239. [19:28:15] <fresco> the only difference for #3 is that it's marked as 'self'
  240. [19:28:16] <rsinger> and metadata
  241. [19:28:23] <briansuda> lets not get hung-up on that right now... they are pretty similar
  242. [19:28:50] <rsinger> briansuda: right, the same with different contexts
  243. [19:29:02] <briansuda> So hCard attributes can be used to mark-up authorship, and we were talking about DC as a good model for the rest of the data
  244. [19:29:07] <briansuda> and a sort of locator
  245. [19:29:58] <darcusb> DC + DCQ + stuff for the locators (pages, volumes, etc.).
  246. [19:29:58] <edsu> well DC itself is way too loose to describe a citation isn't it?
  247. [19:30:09] <fresco> things to mark-up: 1) the item, 2) its 'container'.
  248. [19:30:22] <darcusb> + classes (book, etc.)
  249. [19:30:28] <fresco> right
  250. [19:30:34] <edsu> darcusb: is there good dcq for citations?
  251. [19:30:46] <rsinger> hmm
  252. [19:30:48] <fresco> dcq?
  253. [19:30:52] <rsinger> why use dcq?
  254. [19:31:01] <rsinger> when openurl already does that?
  255. [19:31:05] <darcusb> The primary things from DCQ is the date stuff and the crucial isPartOf relation (what we're calling "cotnainer" here).
  256. [19:31:05] * dchud (n=dlc33@sildin.med.yale.edu) has left #microformats
  257. [19:31:34] <rsinger> i think we should borrow from the different schemas as appropriate
  258. [19:31:49] <fresco> elements of PRISM are good for that too
  259. [19:31:59] <bretonslivka> Have you guys made a table listing the properties in all the available citatin formats yet?
  260. [19:32:12] <bretonslivka> It would be easy to see which are the most common this way
  261. [19:32:16] <rsinger> er, i don't think that's qualified dc
  262. [19:32:16] <fresco> http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-formats
  263. [19:32:21] <darcusb> One problem with PRISM is the that the "number" property is problematic.
  264. [19:32:30] <rsinger> is it?
  265. [19:33:02] <darcusb> Yes. It should distinguish issue and document numbers
  266. [19:33:52] <edsu> fresco: dcq =~ dublin core qualifiers
  267. [19:34:18] <darcusb> yes, sorry: I am talking about Qualified Dublin Core, aka Extended Dublin Core.
  268. [19:34:55] <fresco> so we need to agree on a list of key elements for the item, and a list of key elements for the 'container' (is there a better term?)
  269. [19:35:30] <rsinger> i get confused by the 'other elements' part of this page: http://www.dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/
  270. [19:35:43] <darcusb> MODS calls it "host" but I find that more awkward myself.
  271. [19:36:19] <briansuda> fresco, if by 'container' you mean the 'root class' like class="vcard"
  272. [19:36:51] <fresco> no, sorry, i mean the physical or conceptual thing that contains the item
  273. [19:36:55] <rsinger> the only problem i see with hCard for the author is the lack of granularity around the authors
  274. [19:36:57] <fresco> like a journal, for a journal article
  275. [19:37:02] <rsinger> er, author fields
  276. [19:37:35] <fresco> how much granularity do you need?
  277. [19:37:49] <rsinger> does it do first/last?
  278. [19:38:00] <bretonslivka> yes
  279. [19:38:01] <rsinger> or, more importantly
  280. [19:38:07] <darcusb> The importance of granularity depends on the goals.
  281. [19:38:07] <rsinger> ah, i didn't realize that
  282. [19:38:25] <rsinger> darcusb: well, knowing the order of the authors is good
  283. [19:38:29] <darcusb> If you want to support machine processing, then we end up with a problem here.
  284. [19:38:30] <rsinger> if nothing else
  285. [19:38:36] <briansuda> rsigner, i'm not sure i understand, if you look at hReview the way they mark-up author is: <span class="author vcard"> (hcard here)
  286. [19:38:57] <darcusb> OK, let me explain ...
  287. [19:39:03] <rsinger> briansuda: i didn't realize you could have firstname/lastname
  288. [19:39:04] <fresco> <span class="vcard">
  289. [19:39:04] <fresco> <span class="role" id="#a">Author</span>s:
  290. [19:39:04] <fresco> <span class="n"><span class="family-name">Hochstein</span>, <abbr
  291. [19:39:04] <fresco> title="Lorin" class="given-name">L</abbr></span>
  292. [19:39:06] <briansuda> author ordering can be achived by using <ol> it is an ordered list
  293. [19:39:06] <rsinger> briansuda
  294. [19:39:33] <rsinger> briansuda: er, bad with the return key... um, i had only seen 'fn' used
  295. [19:40:00] <rsinger> fresco: ah, good
  296. [19:40:03] <rsinger> that works, then
  297. [19:40:05] <darcusb> using the "n" example above is ideal
  298. [19:40:25] <bretonslivka> FN is somewhat dangerous usage unless you're aware of the optimisation
  299. [19:40:41] <rsinger> bretonslivka: agreed
  300. [19:40:46] <fresco> fn would be the same as dc:creator, presumably
  301. [19:40:46] <rsinger> hence my initial reservation
  302. [19:40:52] <darcusb> ... but you do lose some info potentially with the abbreviation.
  303. [19:41:05] <darcusb> oh, nevemind!
  304. [19:41:07] <edsu> was there anything missing from the strawman proposal?
  305. [19:41:29] <rsinger> i like the title=Lorin
  306. [19:41:42] <darcusb> yup
  307. [19:41:43] <bretonslivka> Well how does anyone think about modularization?
  308. [19:41:51] <edsu> can the dates be done with hCal?
  309. [19:41:51] <bretonslivka> i saw you guys talking about coming up with a core set
  310. [19:41:54] <bretonslivka> and extending it
  311. [19:41:58] <bretonslivka> for specific purposes
  312. [19:42:06] * rsinger hmms.
  313. [19:42:21] <briansuda> which strawman - i think more than one appeared on different pages
  314. [19:42:39] <edsu> http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Straw_format_suggestion
  315. [19:42:55] <bretonslivka> So cite would be extremely minimalist, and where it falls short, you add a module
  316. [19:43:12] <bretonslivka> with its own container, the module potentially being reusable in other mf's
  317. [19:43:44] <bretonslivka> for instance the idea of doing the work-of-art microformat as a special case of cite
  318. [19:43:48] <darcusb> Ummm, I'm not sure. Brian and I opened by talking about that.
  319. [19:43:55] <edsu> bretonslivka: i like the sound of that, but I'm wondering what that might look like in practice
  320. [19:44:06] <darcusb> ditto edsu
  321. [19:44:23] <darcusb> I think this gets us back to the class question, and the basic model.
  322. [19:44:32] <bretonslivka> Well I sort of imagine a module being used the same way as hcard is being used now
  323. [19:44:32] <rsinger> right
  324. [19:44:59] <briansuda> what was the class question?
  325. [19:45:01] <bretonslivka> so there's sort of an inherent heirarchy
  326. [19:45:06] <edsu> bretonslivka: ok, but hcard has a spec to fall back on :)
  327. [19:45:07] <rsinger> hmm, well, actually, this is an interesting idea
  328. [19:45:15] <darcusb> Book, Article, etc.,etc.
  329. [19:45:23] <rsinger> openurl addresses this issue by having community profiles
  330. [19:45:27] <rsinger> each with their own schema
  331. [19:45:42] <rsinger> some of which borrow vocabulary from each other
  332. [19:45:49] <darcusb> Which I think is a bad idea, as I said on the list. If we do the model right, there's less need for this.
  333. [19:45:57] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  334. [19:46:01] <rsinger> but are each their own standalone document
  335. [19:46:48] <briansuda> i am contemplating this class question, it seems to be a matter of TYPE, but depending on TYPE the locator might be slightly different
  336. [19:46:51] <edsu> bretonslivka: i agree though, ideally hCite would get reused as we are conteplating reusing hCard and hCal cite-rel right now
  337. [19:47:17] <edsu> erm, contemplating
  338. [19:47:18] <bretonslivka> Okay so what about a reversal
  339. [19:47:26] <bretonslivka> cite used as a module inside work-of-art
  340. [19:47:31] <briansuda> e.g. Book has PAGE, CHAPTER, etc... Musical Work has Hr:Min:sec...
  341. [19:47:38] <bretonslivka> or book
  342. [19:48:01] <edsu> ok
  343. [19:48:07] <bretonslivka> So each of these specific types may have their own MF with CITE as a module they use
  344. [19:48:24] <darcusb> they don't need their own MF
  345. [19:48:44] <darcusb> ?
  346. [19:48:53] <bretonslivka> well I think if you want to cover all of them, without overloading the properties in cite
  347. [19:48:58] <briansuda> the other slightly tricky things about the CLASS is that i'm not sure how to translate that across Citation types. (i know BibTeX has taken its share of finger pointing - but they @class is an enumnerated list)
  348. [19:48:59] <bretonslivka> you'll want to split this up somehow
  349. [19:49:12] <fresco> common fields?:
  350. [19:49:13] <fresco> item: title, authors, date, uid, uri
  351. [19:49:13] <fresco> container: title, publisher, date, uid, uri, series
  352. [19:49:26] <briansuda> bretonslivka, i think common fields is the answer too.
  353. [19:49:54] <fresco> then things like pages, voume, issue that are common across certain classes
  354. [19:50:14] <bretonslivka> ah but I'm speaking about what to do when you need properties that are not common to all of them
  355. [19:50:24] <edsu> briansuda: the close you come to common fields the closer you approach DC
  356. [19:50:40] <rsinger> and, frankly, uselessness
  357. [19:50:50] <fresco> why uselessness?
  358. [19:50:51] <edsu> yeah, but better than nothing for sure
  359. [19:51:22] <edsu> it was the goal of DC afterall to sublimate citation for electronic resources
  360. [19:51:29] <darcusb> DC becomes "useless" when people try to use it in a flat model.
  361. [19:51:32] <rsinger> fresco: how would you semantically tell what dc:creator is?
  362. [19:51:40] <edsu> darcusb: agreed
  363. [19:51:43] <bretonslivka> what if cite is a subset of dc, for common fields. I would like to see an argument for why musical peice, work-of-art, photo, book shouldn't have their own mf's
  364. [19:51:54] <fresco> rsinger: it's the creator of the item
  365. [19:51:59] <fresco> :)
  366. [19:51:59] <edsu> maybe we need a hDC instead of a hCite
  367. [19:52:03] <rsinger> right
  368. [19:52:06] <rsinger> what is that?
  369. [19:52:23] <fresco> the person that created it
  370. [19:52:23] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has left #microformats
  371. [19:52:30] <rsinger> not necessarily
  372. [19:52:40] <fresco> the thing that created it
  373. [19:53:06] <briansuda> I just want to do a quick time-check, we're all busy and don't want to keep people for too long, i saw this should only take an hour, so 10 minute warning!
  374. [19:53:13] <fresco> so is this a flat model or not?
  375. [19:53:21] <darcusb> No!!
  376. [19:53:26] <fresco> good
  377. [19:53:30] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  378. [19:53:30] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  379. [19:53:33] <edsu> briansuda: i'm starting to like your proposal of looking at DC and then reusing existing microformats as possible
  380. [19:53:33] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  381. [19:54:05] <rsinger> hmm
  382. [19:54:12] <briansuda> The strawman that was posted can be constructed with alot of the DC properties.
  383. [19:54:24] <fresco> the strawman seems to have a lot of chaff
  384. [19:54:26] <briansuda> and existsing microformats
  385. [19:54:29] <fresco> that could be got rid of
  386. [19:54:29] <darcusb> In OpenDocument, we've been thinking of adding an extensible metadat system based around modules, with default ones for DC and DCQ.
  387. [19:54:39] <rsinger> ok, right off, i'll tell you that DC doesn't work for actually getting to the item
  388. [19:54:45] <rsinger> if it's, say, a journal article
  389. [19:54:55] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has left #microformats
  390. [19:55:10] <rsinger> fresco: sorry, i should have used 'identifier' as my example
  391. [19:55:12] <edsu> rsinger: you're talking DC without qualifiers?
  392. [19:55:12] <fresco> rsinger: what's missing from DC?
  393. [19:55:21] <darcusb> As I said above, DC is not sufficient on its own, but it does cover 75% of the needs.
  394. [19:55:28] <rsinger> to 'resolve' any sort of journal article
  395. [19:55:31] <darcusb> + DCQ
  396. [19:55:43] <edsu> darcusb: i guess that's not rsinger's 75% ;-)
  397. [19:55:48] <darcusb> So add structures for locating them (doi, etc.).
  398. [19:56:09] <rsinger> you /have/ to have a journal title||issn, a volume||issue and a year
  399. [19:56:16] <fresco> things like language, relation and subject i don't think are necessary for a bibliography citation, but they might be useful for a 'self' citation
  400. [19:56:27] <briansuda> Well, surpisingly no one has mentioned COiNs and only one OpenURL reference - anyone have an opinion about that?
  401. [19:56:34] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@63-231-153-22.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ()
  402. [19:56:42] <briansuda> fresco, we can keep those as optional
  403. [19:56:48] <rsinger> briansuda: i think this is where i'm supposed to chime in
  404. [19:56:54] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Connection timed out)
  405. [19:56:56] * rsinger clears his throat.
  406. [19:57:05] <fresco> the list of 'optionals' is going to be huge
  407. [19:57:11] * edsu chuckles
  408. [19:57:35] <rsinger> briansuda: i think openurl is good for getting granularity -- but more importantly, i think creating a model that's 'compatible' with openurl is more important
  409. [19:58:08] <rsinger> so whether or not openurl is used or not isn't all that important
  410. [19:58:13] <darcusb> By 75%, I don't mean it's sufficient for 75% of citations. I mean it can represent 75% of any given citation's essential metadata.
  411. [19:58:25] <rsinger> for instance, it's pretty easy to map bibtex to the important parts of openurl
  412. [19:58:38] <rsinger> but bibtex citations seldomly have all the important bits
  413. [19:58:55] <rsinger> darcusb: i agree with that
  414. [19:59:09] <rsinger> darcus: and i note you avoided 80% :)
  415. [19:59:16] <darcusb> :-)
  416. [19:59:23] <edsu> heh
  417. [19:59:51] <bretonslivka> So the question remains, that there's the problem of adding specifying properties, and we have a number of proposals for doing so
  418. [20:00:03] <rsinger> yes
  419. [20:00:03] <edsu> briansuda: so what have you and ryan cooked up for xtech?
  420. [20:00:19] <briansuda> edsu, in the way of citations you mean? or in general
  421. [20:00:26] <edsu> well, both i guess
  422. [20:00:27] <rsinger> i would like to have something to bring to my conversation with MS tomorrow
  423. [20:00:47] <rsinger> obviously not a spec
  424. [20:00:58] <rsinger> but at least an idea that we have a clue of how to proceed
  425. [20:01:10] <briansuda> for those of you who don't know ryan king and i will be doing a half-day presentation at XTECH
  426. [20:01:11] <edsu> rsinger: what are you going to be talking about with them tomorrow again?
  427. [20:01:17] <darcusb> I say we first agree the model not be flat.
  428. [20:01:22] <rsinger> edsu: academic live search
  429. [20:01:29] <rsinger> darcusb: i agree with that
  430. [20:01:30] <darcusb> Then we agree on the basic structure of it.
  431. [20:01:37] <fresco> darcusb: so that would be like an RDF model, where attributes are applied to items?
  432. [20:02:01] <darcusb> And finally the business of a core set of types, and the core properties. (fresco: yes)
  433. [20:02:47] <fresco> that would be the main difference from the strawman then
  434. [20:02:59] <darcusb> That makes it easy to then extend as needed.
  435. [20:03:11] <rsinger> i think i need to see an example
  436. [20:03:18] <bretonslivka> My main question is how you plan to extend it
  437. [20:03:20] <darcusb> I don't think it's be hugely different.
  438. [20:03:22] <bretonslivka> just add more properties?
  439. [20:03:22] <rsinger> but i like where i think this is going
  440. [20:03:33] <fresco> actually the strawman is pretty much like that already
  441. [20:03:43] <darcusb> Yes, add properties as needed, but within a smart structure.
  442. [20:04:16] <bretonslivka> what is a "smart structure" exactly?
  443. [20:04:29] <darcusb> Not flat for one.
  444. [20:04:48] <fresco> modular, i think this means
  445. [20:05:21] <darcusb> Secondly, one that accounts for the basic structures common to all of the potential types; in my RDF model, I have References, Collections, Events, and Agents.
  446. [20:05:45] <darcusb> Yeah, modular.
  447. [20:05:55] <fresco> events is outside this scope, i think
  448. [20:06:14] <rsinger> events could mean dates, no?
  449. [20:06:17] <fresco> there's hevent for that
  450. [20:06:19] <rsinger> issue?
  451. [20:06:23] <darcusb> For how do you deal with hearings then? Or a paper presented at a conference?
  452. [20:06:46] <darcusb> Yes, events have dates, and sponsors, and locations.
  453. [20:07:28] <briansuda> Citation Events will need to be added to the wiki
  454. [20:07:39] <bretonslivka> <div class='hcite'><div class='vevent'></div></div>
  455. [20:07:40] <edsu> briansuda: so umm, nothing cooked up for citations yet then eh?
  456. [20:08:00] <darcusb> fwiw, the strawman uses "venue", which might get at it.
  457. [20:08:00] <rsinger> so... can hCal handle the date/event?
  458. [20:08:17] <darcusb> I'll look into it, but my hunch is yes.
  459. [20:08:21] <darcusb> ?
  460. [20:08:42] <briansuda> edsu, very little of anything so far... this i just an intro course, the later half will be more of the nitty-gritty where citations might pop-up
  461. [20:08:49] <edsu> yeah, microformats are by nature intended to be modular so i don't think there's much danger of being stuck with a flat model
  462. [20:09:11] <briansuda> hCalendar would have everything we need for an Event reference
  463. [20:09:18] <fresco> so of that list, we need to hande References and Collections
  464. [20:09:20] <rsinger> perfect
  465. [20:09:45] <briansuda> edsu, i will also be presenting at www2006, so that will be a good place to demo some citation data as well
  466. [20:10:03] <edsu> briansuda: nice!
  467. [20:10:08] <rsinger> darcusb: is 'references' stuff like article title or whatever?
  468. [20:10:15] <briansuda> http://www2006.org/programme/paper.php?id=d7
  469. [20:10:16] <darcusb> Collection as I use it includes subclasses like Periodical (and in turn Journal and such) and Series.
  470. [20:10:30] <rsinger> good, that's how i pictured it
  471. [20:10:34] <darcusb> rsinger: yes, all the other stuff are subclasses of that.
  472. [20:11:01] <rsinger> right
  473. [20:11:15] <bretonslivka> Slight change of pace, has anyone here been to easybib.com ?
  474. [20:11:21] <darcusb> BTW, Reference is itself a subclass of frbr:Manifestation :-)
  475. [20:11:30] <rsinger> so work-of-art would have something like 'materials' or something
  476. [20:11:35] <bretonslivka> it's like one of those microformat generators, but generates citations in mla format
  477. [20:11:59] <edsu> kind of like thatscrazyhot.com
  478. [20:12:06] <rsinger> yeah
  479. [20:12:17] <bretonslivka> Work of art would need in the least medium, and dimensions
  480. [20:12:24] <briansuda> darcusb, do you have a link to your RDF model
  481. [20:12:25] <edsu> bretonslivka: bookmarked :)
  482. [20:12:34] <bretonslivka> and photo requires a slightly different set of properties
  483. [20:12:39] <darcusb> http://purl.org/net/biblio
  484. [20:12:51] <darcusb> note: it does not really include propreties (at least yet)
  485. [20:13:19] <rsinger> holy crap
  486. [20:13:29] <rsinger> ok, that might be a little ambitious
  487. [20:13:33] <bretonslivka> Then it's also immportant to note that work-of-art isn't just paintings, but sculptures as well
  488. [20:13:51] <bretonslivka> so a dimensions would require three axes in some cases
  489. [20:14:18] * rsinger watches hCite implode under the weight of its own mass.
  490. [20:15:15] * kingryan watches rsinger watch hCite implode
  491. [20:15:18] <edsu> darcusb: does that healthy list of classes coexist with anything like the DC core set?
  492. [20:15:20] <fresco> that's not hCite, that's hArt
  493. [20:15:30] <briansuda> when i started working on a citation format i NEVER imagined it would go down a road with SO MANY choices!!
  494. [20:15:47] <darcusb> :-)
  495. [20:15:52] <edsu> briansuda: this bibliography thing is well, kinda old :)
  496. [20:15:55] <briansuda> My take is to gather as much stuff as possible, then start with the BARE minimum
  497. [20:16:15] <edsu> dc is the closest thing to a bare minimum that i can think of
  498. [20:16:19] <rsinger> ugh
  499. [20:16:25] <fresco> dc has more than the bare minimum
  500. [20:16:28] <edsu> perhaps too bare for some :)
  501. [20:16:50] <rsinger> i'm telling you -- it's going to be an exercise in futility if the citation can't lead to the actual item
  502. [20:16:50] <briansuda> we don't have to stop at minimum, just start their.
  503. [20:16:55] <edsu> but if there was anything like the ability to do qualification with hCite it would be pretty cool
  504. [20:17:02] <darcusb> I think that's fine Brian. In my own data, I mostly use DC properties for the actual description. I just felt the need fo something comprehensive that describe types in actual use.
  505. [20:17:15] <edsu> DC has a decent history of usage on the web too
  506. [20:17:15] <rsinger> formatting for display is so 2001
  507. [20:17:32] <darcusb> Tell that to journal publishers!
  508. [20:17:32] <bretonslivka> all up hArt would only add 2 or 3 properties to hCite.
  509. [20:17:36] <rsinger> ha!
  510. [20:18:01] <edsu> darcusb: do you have time to sketch out a sample citation being marked up in xhtml?
  511. [20:18:05] <rsinger> darcusb: well, whatever we come up with will probably be incorporated by the institute of mathematical statistics
  512. [20:18:36] <darcusb> in reply to edsu, Is Alf here
  513. [20:18:38] <darcusb> ?
  514. [20:18:44] <edsu> alf =~ fresco
  515. [20:18:45] <rsinger> although i don't know how open they'd be to theoretical ideas
  516. [20:18:57] <fresco> yes, hi
  517. [20:18:58] <edsu> darcusb: :)
  518. [20:19:15] <darcusb> Good. He and I were working on this along with citeproc, so we could probably whip something up?
  519. [20:19:15] <fresco> there are two uses here still: enough information to locate the cited item from the information given, and enough information to describe the current page for export
  520. [20:19:17] <rsinger> darcusb: if there's an xhtml example, i can try marking up our ETDs in such a way
  521. [20:19:29] <briansuda> the other nice thing about microformats is that we are NOT a standards body - we can launch a citation microformat 0.1 use it for 2 months and add to it as needed we don't need to answer every possible senario in this conversation
  522. [20:20:11] <rsinger> poor niso... so easy to kick in the pants
  523. [20:20:33] <bretonslivka> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/
  524. [20:20:41] <edsu> briansuda: perhaps but hCite has been just as slow moving :)
  525. [20:20:58] <bretonslivka> I look at xhtml as a potential model for modularization of hcite
  526. [20:21:44] <rsinger> ok, from my perspective: focusing on journals/articles, books, proceedings and ETDs are the lowest hanging fruit
  527. [20:21:51] <briansuda> agreeded - but i think we are all in the same room and getting onto the same page - the good and bad of a wiki is that anyone can contribute but everyone seems to wait for someone else.
  528. [20:22:04] <rsinger> govdocs only if the appear in the current GPO catalog
  529. [20:22:21] <fresco> can there be a fresh wiki page to create a recommendation?
  530. [20:22:30] <briansuda> certainly!
  531. [20:22:33] <rsinger> can we focus on those types of items?
  532. [20:22:37] <fresco> ie not the actual spec page, but later than brainstorming
  533. [20:22:46] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-recommendation
  534. [20:22:46] <darcusb> So shall we wrap this up? Maybe we can get working on some fuller examples based on the strawman and the work that Alf was doing? E.g. fresco's rec on the wiki page?
  535. [20:23:01] <bretonslivka> some of the modules in xhtml contain only one element.
  536. [20:23:12] <briansuda> darcus, that sounds like a good idea.
  537. [20:23:19] <edsu> briansuda: yeah, that's true -- the guy who sparked this by putting a strawman in there isn't even here apparently--or is he?
  538. [20:23:32] <rsinger> briansuda is right -- let's not try to solve the whole problem at once
  539. [20:23:38] <briansuda> no, i think he couldn't make it.
  540. [20:24:05] <briansuda> i think MIKE added it, http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-irc-meetup he said this was a bad weekend for him
  541. [20:24:11] <rsinger> and, instead, think about how to deal with the most commonly cited objects
  542. [20:24:19] <fresco> so what's the consensus with hidden data - leave it out, or include it hidden?
  543. [20:24:31] <rsinger> include it!
  544. [20:24:33] <rsinger> INCLUDE IT
  545. [20:24:35] <bretonslivka> there's hidden data?
  546. [20:24:39] <rsinger> for the love of god
  547. [20:24:41] <rsinger> include it
  548. [20:24:48] <fresco> include it hidden?
  549. [20:24:50] <darcusb> I vote for adding it where appropriate (dates, names, etc.)
  550. [20:24:50] <edsu> well there is a precedent for hidden data in hCal isn't there?
  551. [20:24:52] <briansuda> also, anyone else, please feel free to add yourself to this page http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-irc-meetup for future meet-ups (if needed)
  552. [20:24:54] <rsinger> sure
  553. [20:24:58] <rsinger> whatever
  554. [20:25:04] <rsinger> include!
  555. [20:25:24] <bretonslivka> Abbr pattern
  556. [20:25:26] <edsu> fresco: you have a strawman too?
  557. [20:25:50] <edsu> bretonslivka: thanks that's what i was trying to remember
  558. [20:25:51] <briansuda> the general sentiment in microformats is to keep AS MUCH displayed. the ABBR does allow for the displayed information to be styled so it is human readable.
  559. [20:26:08] <fresco> edsu: only the xhtml usage i have so far
  560. [20:26:16] <edsu> fresco: is it on the wiki?
  561. [20:26:21] <fresco> no
  562. [20:26:37] <edsu> you know the wiki is great, but the info for citation is sprawling
  563. [20:27:04] <briansuda> this IRC chat is logged and saved to HTML for reference, but i'll try and condense it into a better notes on the wiki
  564. [20:27:06] <edsu> i have trouble finding may way through it -- it's like a wonderful collage
  565. [20:27:17] <rsinger> i realize that the mf thing is to show everything
  566. [20:27:28] <edsu> is it too early just to put together a draft to focus on?
  567. [20:27:31] <rsinger> but i think there's going to be data in a citation that's useful but not used
  568. [20:27:34] <briansuda> we have wiki gardeners, but the citation area is well overgrown!
  569. [20:27:49] <edsu> wiki_gardeners++
  570. [20:27:53] <rsinger> er, not displayed
  571. [20:28:15] <rsinger> hmm
  572. [20:28:28] <rsinger> maybe, though, that's where COinS and hCite can fit in
  573. [20:28:31] <edsu> rsinger: as long as it can be seen as a extension of some more limited visile data abbr will work for that stuff
  574. [20:28:36] * rsinger ponders.
  575. [20:28:42] <briansuda> rsinger, i think you might be right, but lets cross that bridge once we have solid examples - we can vet those examples to people who have ZERO interest in citations and see what they think
  576. [20:29:14] <rsinger> well, what do you think about using COinS for the non-displaying things?
  577. [20:29:31] <fresco> edsu: i can think of data that wouldn't be in an abbr
  578. [20:29:35] <rsinger> that sort of solves the problem, no?
  579. [20:29:43] <edsu> briansuda: just as an example, could we task fresco with coming up with a draft? :-)
  580. [20:29:47] <darcusb> I gotta go. Do we have some consensus on what to do?
  581. [20:29:56] <fresco> that's what i was going to do on the recommendation page
  582. [20:30:03] <edsu> fresco++
  583. [20:30:07] <rsinger> darcusb: yes, you draw up an example :)
  584. [20:30:11] <fresco> i'll start that and then people can hack at it
  585. [20:30:20] <edsu> rawk
  586. [20:30:21] <darcusb> sounds good fresco
  587. [20:30:23] <rsinger> or alf, whoever :)
  588. [20:30:49] <briansuda> here's everyone's chance to assign me some homework - i've volunteered to co-ordinate this effort so tell me what i can do to help everyone?
  589. [20:30:58] <edsu> briansuda: is that ok just to put a draft up there?
  590. [20:31:07] <edsu> briansuda: for us to focus on?
  591. [20:31:18] <briansuda> edsu, go for it, add the draft
  592. [20:31:20] <rsinger> how about everyone pitch in the bare minimum of what they need to get their agenda met?
  593. [20:31:34] <rsinger> ok, i better go
  594. [20:31:48] <edsu> briansuda: it sounds like fresco is going to throw something up initially for us to focus on
  595. [20:31:54] * rsinger (n=rsinger@c-24-98-252-118.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit ()
  596. [20:32:16] <darcusb> I'm quite comfortable with fresco putting something up for use to work on.
  597. [20:32:25] <darcusb> gotta go; ciao.
  598. [20:32:33] * megaman (i=megaman@ibt-clan.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  599. [20:32:35] * darcusb (n=darcusb@cpe-24-210-249-184.woh.res.rr.com) has left #microformats
  600. [20:32:47] * megaman (i=megaman@ibt-clan.net) has joined #microformats
  601. [20:33:23] <edsu> fresco: can you ping us on uf-discuss when it's available?
  602. [20:33:34] <fresco> ok
  603. [20:33:38] <briansuda> edsu, if there is something specific for XTECH you'd like us to cover let me know i'll see what i can do
  604. [20:33:41] <edsu> fresco: i didn't mean to volunteer you, but you seem to understand the different points of view the best
  605. [20:34:08] <briansuda> fresco, if there is anything i can do to help let me know as well.
  606. [20:34:13] <edsu> briansuda: i guess if we had any sort of draft that you could throw past people, like you were planning on doing that would probably do wonders
  607. [20:34:47] <edsu> fresco: i don't entirely grok what darcusb was getting at, apart from us just using his model :)
  608. [20:35:19] <briansuda> we have 4/5 weeks before the conference i hope we will have something substantial by then
  609. [20:35:50] <edsu> cool - i need to run, got a 1 week old baby that needs some attention ...
  610. [20:36:14] * dsalo (n=dsalo@ip68-100-18-183.dc.dc.cox.net) has left #microformats
  611. [20:36:49] <edsu> thanks for making this happen, just the convo is useful i think, and being able to focus on a draft instead of the sprawling wiki citation garden will help me a lot
  612. [20:37:24] <briansuda> edsu, that was the plan, good to see it is working
  613. [20:37:30] <edsu> i guess it's evidence that we definitely did go out and look how citations are being done
  614. [20:37:41] <briansuda> too good!
  615. [20:37:42] <edsu> :-)
  616. [20:37:45] * bretonslivka (n=bretonsl@c-67-190-186-46.hsd1.co.comcast.net) Quit ("My damn controlling terminal disappeared!")
  617. [20:37:47] * edsu chuckles
  618. [20:37:58] <edsu> ok, i'm away
  619. [20:41:19] * briansuda starts picking-up empty bottles and cleans ash trays after everyone left the party
  620. [20:45:30] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  621. [20:45:30] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  627. [21:58:01] <cks_> again
  628. [21:58:11] <cks_> sorry, wrong group
  629. [22:08:16] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit ()
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  634. [22:44:04] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  635. [22:44:27] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  636. [22:46:40] <mfbot> [[citation-recommendation]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-recommendation * AlfEaton * (+3281) started, following irc discussion
  637. [22:47:46] <mfbot> [[citation-recommendation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5753 * AlfEaton * (+4)
  638. [22:48:40] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  639. [22:50:19] * tantek tries to read up on irc citation discussion
  640. [22:50:40] <tantek> as far as i can tell, too much talk of older, over-designed models, and not enough talk of real world examples
  641. [22:50:43] <tantek> :(
  642. [22:53:37] <mfbot> [[citation-recommendation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5754 * AlfEaton * (-58)
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  645. [23:18:54] <mfbot> [[citation-recommendation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5755 * AlfEaton * (+0)
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  649. [23:39:00] <mfbot> [[citation-recommendation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5756 * BDarcus * (+241) changed generic "number" class to "issue"
  650. [23:45:36] <mfbot> [[citation-recommendation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5757 * BDarcus * (+667) Additional elements for a book citation -
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  652. [23:57:22] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow

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