IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-04-09
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:03:57] <DanC>
KevinMarks, I've got python code to generate hCalendar using kid templates... and python code to parse .ics format. I haven't glued them together yet.
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- [00:05:57] <DanC>
I almost glued a couple pieces of code like that together for doing an expense report. But it looked like a few hour's work, so I did it by hand.
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- [00:06:13] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [00:38:25] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=5750 * Tantek * (+52)
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- [01:47:02] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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kingryan is ryan king
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- [03:02:49] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [03:34:21] <bewest>
anyone from SF around? I'm moving there... trying to look for places to live via craigslist
- [03:35:07] <bewest>
is it hard to get from richmond to presidio?
- [03:35:23] <bewest>
looks like they are next to eachother on the map
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- [04:14:11] <Atamido>
bewest: http://www.housingmaps.com/
- [04:16:35] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [04:18:58] <bewest>
Atamido: oooOOooo
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- [04:27:21] <jibot>
cks is Christopher St. John and has a brain filled with inane drivel from irc chat logs
- [04:27:36] <cks>
i'm back to playing around with irc/chat formats
- [04:28:03] <cks>
<q> seems logical for the message part
- [04:28:14] <cks>
but... safari won't style away the quote marks
- [04:29:08] <Atamido>
Safari puts quotes around <p>?
- [04:29:59] <tantek>
<q> Atamido
- [04:30:23] <tantek>
cks, have you tried q:before,q:after { content:"" } ?
- [04:30:46] <cks>
ahhh. no, i was using no-open-quote
- [04:30:51] <cks>
i'll give that a try...
- [04:31:21] <cks>
yep, that's got it. thanks!
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- [05:37:33] <DanC_lap>
aha... it works in one case
- [05:37:53] <DanC_lap>
I've been working on refactoring my .ics reading python code so that I can generate hCalendar using kid tempates
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- [06:44:01] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=5751 * Chris Messina * (+99) hCard -
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- [07:35:05] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [08:10:18] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [10:41:45] * Jonnay (n=jonny@d199-126-185-156.abhsia.telus.net) has joined #microformats
- [10:41:45] <jibot>
Jonnay is a programmer, graphic designer and musician. He blogs at http://blog.jonnay.net and his music is at http://www.jonnay.net
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- [10:45:15] <jibot>
amette is http://alexander-mette.de and a TikiWiki developer
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- [13:03:13] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
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- [14:21:44] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5752 * BillyG * (+86) Examples in the wild -
- [14:54:08] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [14:54:08] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [14:56:07] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [17:31:02] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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- [18:55:10] <briansuda>
in another 5 minutes or so we are planning a microformats citation meet-up anyone is more than welcome to attended, more information is available here: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-irc-meetup
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- [19:00:26] <briansuda>
Anyone around here to discuss the world of bibliographic citations?
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- [19:02:57] <briansuda>
darcusb, shall we start talking citations? and others can join in as they login
- [19:03:12] <darcusb>
sure Brian
- [19:03:50] <briansuda>
OK, we tried this sort of meet-up with hCalendar and it moved things along, so we'll try it with citations.
- [19:04:03] <briansuda>
i think some of the stumbling blocks to getting this going are:
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- [19:04:30] <briansuda>
scope: what does this cover (books, journals, art, TV, performance, etc,...)
- [19:05:06] <briansuda>
and i guess scope also in the sense of (bibliography, inline citatations, and article this/that stuff)
- [19:05:33] <darcusb>
yes, scope is probably the primary issue
- [19:05:41] <briansuda>
i think you have expressed interest in the bibliography sort of data at the end of an article to be marked-up to be moved into other formats
- [19:06:07] <briansuda>
(also, i think minumum data need to be considered a citation, just NAME or identitfier, etc)
- [19:06:21] <darcusb>
what do you mean by "moved into other formats"?
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- [19:06:35] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [19:06:57] <briansuda>
you (i think) are working on the RDF implementations, so if a microformat can easily be "moved" to RDF then all the better
- [19:07:08] <fresco>
"other formats" being RIS, bibtex, etc, presumably
- [19:07:32] <briansuda>
so we want to consider some of the structure and properties in these other formats as well.
- [19:07:49] <darcusb>
OIC. I agree with those who suggest lossless conversion is a pipe dream. OTOH, it would be nice to have a format that makes good conversion easy.
- [19:08:35] <briansuda>
agreed, partly because of the differences in all the formats we will never get a lossless system (atleast not in any decent time frame)
- [19:08:46] <fresco>
two way, lossless conversion would be difficult, but losing as little information as possible on the way should be the aim
- [19:08:50] <briansuda>
so... what is our scope then?
- [19:09:46] <fresco>
i can think of two main uses: 1) citation information about the current page and 2) citation information about a cited reference
- [19:09:55] <darcusb>
I'm of the opinion that we can define a core that covers the territory of existing formats like RIS and BibTeX, but whose structure is such that extending it beyond that becomes trivial.
- [19:11:07] <fresco>
so we need to define the core elements
- [19:11:19] <briansuda>
That sounds best to me, our first go at a citation microformat should be this core teritory, then we can all use it, kick the tires, and extend as needed.
- [19:11:39] <briansuda>
So then what would be the BARE minimum to describe a citation?
- [19:11:53] <darcusb>
We need to define the core structure (e.g. it can't be flat) and associated properties.
- [19:12:36] <fresco>
it depends on what you're citing... title, creator, date... dublin core, basically
- [19:12:53] <briansuda>
Oh, a quick aside - can we DEFINE a citation - i think there might be some confusion beween a citation, bibliography and other?
- [19:13:02] <darcusb>
Yes, and extended Dublin Core for some of the key relations.
- [19:13:12] <fresco>
a bibliography is a collection of citations
- [19:13:32] <darcusb>
Also, there are what I call "locators" (volume, issue, page numbers, etc.).
- [19:13:58] <fresco>
i call those locators part of the description of the "container"
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- [19:14:06] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [19:14:36] <darcusb>
Well, kind of the location of the citable item within the "container"?
- [19:14:38] <dchud>
fwiw, the dublin core people themselves punted on using dublin core elements as citation keys, i wouldn't assume that it's best for that
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- [19:15:05] <fresco>
dchud: what was the reason?
- [19:15:17] <dchud>
i'll pull up the ref
- [19:15:32] <darcusb>
Well, the core of DC works for the basic properties, but not for a full citation model; not without Qualified DC.
- [19:15:59] <fresco>
sure. it's a good definition of core attributes, that's all
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- [19:16:27] <edsu>
yeah, their still talking about them -- in fact they 'cite' our microformats effort: http://epub.mimas.ac.uk/DC/citstds.html
- [19:16:50] <dchud>
http://dublincore.org/documents/dc-citation-guidelines/
- [19:17:14] <edsu>
s/their/they're/
- [19:17:26] <dchud>
<-- note the separate recommendations in section 2.
- [19:17:57] <fresco>
so replace dc:creator with an hcard
- [19:18:01] <darcusb>
On a definition of "citation" see if this is useful: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bibliographic_Project%27s_Developer_Page#Terminology
- [19:18:36] <darcusb>
yes, I think hcard is appropriate for use here, and that creator is too narrow for citation needs, which often del with authors, editors, translators, etc.
- [19:19:02] <edsu>
dchud: dcterms:bibliographicCitation is just a freeform element right, for stuffing any old citation data into
- [19:19:22] <dchud>
edsu: yes exactly
- [19:19:59] <fresco>
on darcusb's link above, i think this microformat covers both 'citation' and 'reference item'
- [19:20:01] <edsu>
briansuda: so what did you and ryan have in mind for what a citation meant?
- [19:20:03] <briansuda>
its been awhile since i looked deeply at the DC spec, but they define only 12-15 properties and then extend them, so there is a creator, but then "directory" is of TYPE creator, right?
- [19:20:05] <fresco>
one is just a shorter form of the other
- [19:20:51] <briansuda>
The reason i was looking for a 'definintion' was to help define the scope - i see the results of this microformat used in tree places
- [19:21:05] <fresco>
" citation
- [19:21:06] <fresco>
a short description that points to a fuller description elsewhere, either in a note or a reference list
- [19:21:08] <fresco>
reference item
- [19:21:11] <fresco>
a fuller description; also called a bibliographic entry or item"
- [19:21:12] <fresco>
^both of those^
- [19:21:30] <briansuda>
1) bibliographies, all the citations you see at the bottom of a page for reference in a document
- [19:21:50] <edsu>
like a list of publications in a resume
- [19:22:21] <briansuda>
2) inline quotes and such (e.g. you gotta really read this book XYZ by John Doe)
- [19:22:34] <darcusb>
One way to think of the distinction is between footnote marks and the footnote per se (the text at the bottom of the page).
- [19:23:02] <briansuda>
3) The document itself, (like a blog post, it has an author, pub data, reference [uri], edittors, etc)
- [19:23:07] <darcusb>
A citation in that sense is typically just a plain text link.
- [19:23:42] <briansuda>
darcusb, plain text link in reference to #2?
- [19:23:42] <rsinger>
well, these all seem to be 'views' of the same thing
- [19:23:52] <rsinger>
with less or more metadata, depending on the use
- [19:23:55] <edsu>
do 1) and 2) correspond to fresco's citation and reference item
- [19:24:04] <fresco>
yes
- [19:24:05] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-24-6-67-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:24:15] <fresco>
i agree with those 3
- [19:24:25] <rsinger>
but since we're talking about 'metadata', it's more of a matter of 'style' depending on what you show where
- [19:24:36] <darcusb>
brian: sorry, I was out of sync.
- [19:24:42] * edsu waves to rsinger
- [19:24:47] <rsinger>
hi ed
- [19:24:47] <briansuda>
i don't want to get too hung up on my 3 items, they don't in any way effect what we put into the microformat... those were just the 3 'use-cases' i for-saw
- [19:25:00] <briansuda>
#1 was for bibliographies.
- [19:25:22] <briansuda>
#2 was for spiders crawling the web pulling out "dicussions" about things
- [19:25:50] <briansuda>
#3 was for sites like Cite-U-Like and stuff, they could crawl pages and FROM THE PAGE get the cite data
- [19:26:06] <edsu>
yeah, i like those 3 myself -- i can't think of any others
- [19:26:09] <rsinger>
i'm not sure i get #2
- [19:26:10] <fresco>
for #3, readers can collect the citation data too
- [19:26:21] <briansuda>
although we still need to determine what that data is, and that's why we are all here
- [19:26:48] <rsinger>
or, rather, i'm not sure how #2 is the same as the others
- [19:27:04] <fresco>
#2 is just a minimal form of #1, really. it could be just the same, depending on whether you're allowed to have hidden data.
- [19:27:34] <rsinger>
ok
- [19:27:39] <edsu>
fresco: yeah, that 's what i was thinking too
- [19:27:41] <briansuda>
#2, might be used for something like a blog about an oprah book club. Each reader will mark-up their book reference with our citation microformat... then we can semantically connect the two because they have the same ISBN or REF or signature, etc...
- [19:27:42] <rsinger>
so, to me, they still all sound the same
- [19:28:07] <rsinger>
and we have two main sticking points
- [19:28:13] <rsinger>
presentation
- [19:28:15] <fresco>
the only difference for #3 is that it's marked as 'self'
- [19:28:16] <rsinger>
and metadata
- [19:28:23] <briansuda>
lets not get hung-up on that right now... they are pretty similar
- [19:28:50] <rsinger>
briansuda: right, the same with different contexts
- [19:29:02] <briansuda>
So hCard attributes can be used to mark-up authorship, and we were talking about DC as a good model for the rest of the data
- [19:29:07] <briansuda>
and a sort of locator
- [19:29:58] <darcusb>
DC + DCQ + stuff for the locators (pages, volumes, etc.).
- [19:29:58] <edsu>
well DC itself is way too loose to describe a citation isn't it?
- [19:30:09] <fresco>
things to mark-up: 1) the item, 2) its 'container'.
- [19:30:22] <darcusb>
+ classes (book, etc.)
- [19:30:28] <fresco>
right
- [19:30:34] <edsu>
darcusb: is there good dcq for citations?
- [19:30:46] <rsinger>
hmm
- [19:30:48] <fresco>
dcq?
- [19:30:52] <rsinger>
why use dcq?
- [19:31:01] <rsinger>
when openurl already does that?
- [19:31:05] <darcusb>
The primary things from DCQ is the date stuff and the crucial isPartOf relation (what we're calling "cotnainer" here).
- [19:31:05] * dchud (n=dlc33@sildin.med.yale.edu) has left #microformats
- [19:31:34] <rsinger>
i think we should borrow from the different schemas as appropriate
- [19:31:49] <fresco>
elements of PRISM are good for that too
- [19:31:59] <bretonslivka>
Have you guys made a table listing the properties in all the available citatin formats yet?
- [19:32:12] <bretonslivka>
It would be easy to see which are the most common this way
- [19:32:16] <rsinger>
er, i don't think that's qualified dc
- [19:32:16] <fresco>
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-formats
- [19:32:21] <darcusb>
One problem with PRISM is the that the "number" property is problematic.
- [19:32:30] <rsinger>
is it?
- [19:33:02] <darcusb>
Yes. It should distinguish issue and document numbers
- [19:33:52] <edsu>
fresco: dcq =~ dublin core qualifiers
- [19:34:18] <darcusb>
yes, sorry: I am talking about Qualified Dublin Core, aka Extended Dublin Core.
- [19:34:55] <fresco>
so we need to agree on a list of key elements for the item, and a list of key elements for the 'container' (is there a better term?)
- [19:35:30] <rsinger>
i get confused by the 'other elements' part of this page: http://www.dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/
- [19:35:43] <darcusb>
MODS calls it "host" but I find that more awkward myself.
- [19:36:19] <briansuda>
fresco, if by 'container' you mean the 'root class' like class="vcard"
- [19:36:51] <fresco>
no, sorry, i mean the physical or conceptual thing that contains the item
- [19:36:55] <rsinger>
the only problem i see with hCard for the author is the lack of granularity around the authors
- [19:36:57] <fresco>
like a journal, for a journal article
- [19:37:02] <rsinger>
er, author fields
- [19:37:35] <fresco>
how much granularity do you need?
- [19:37:49] <rsinger>
does it do first/last?
- [19:38:00] <bretonslivka>
yes
- [19:38:01] <rsinger>
or, more importantly
- [19:38:07] <darcusb>
The importance of granularity depends on the goals.
- [19:38:07] <rsinger>
ah, i didn't realize that
- [19:38:25] <rsinger>
darcusb: well, knowing the order of the authors is good
- [19:38:29] <darcusb>
If you want to support machine processing, then we end up with a problem here.
- [19:38:30] <rsinger>
if nothing else
- [19:38:36] <briansuda>
rsigner, i'm not sure i understand, if you look at hReview the way they mark-up author is: <span class="author vcard"> (hcard here)
- [19:38:57] <darcusb>
OK, let me explain ...
- [19:39:03] <rsinger>
briansuda: i didn't realize you could have firstname/lastname
- [19:39:04] <fresco>
<span class="vcard">
- [19:39:04] <fresco>
<span class="role" id="#a">Author</span>s:
- [19:39:04] <fresco>
<span class="n"><span class="family-name">Hochstein</span>, <abbr
- [19:39:04] <fresco>
title="Lorin" class="given-name">L</abbr></span>
- [19:39:06] <briansuda>
author ordering can be achived by using <ol> it is an ordered list
- [19:39:06] <rsinger>
briansuda
- [19:39:33] <rsinger>
briansuda: er, bad with the return key... um, i had only seen 'fn' used
- [19:40:00] <rsinger>
fresco: ah, good
- [19:40:03] <rsinger>
that works, then
- [19:40:05] <darcusb>
using the "n" example above is ideal
- [19:40:25] <bretonslivka>
FN is somewhat dangerous usage unless you're aware of the optimisation
- [19:40:41] <rsinger>
bretonslivka: agreed
- [19:40:46] <fresco>
fn would be the same as dc:creator, presumably
- [19:40:46] <rsinger>
hence my initial reservation
- [19:40:52] <darcusb>
... but you do lose some info potentially with the abbreviation.
- [19:41:05] <darcusb>
oh, nevemind!
- [19:41:07] <edsu>
was there anything missing from the strawman proposal?
- [19:41:29] <rsinger>
i like the title=Lorin
- [19:41:42] <darcusb>
yup
- [19:41:43] <bretonslivka>
Well how does anyone think about modularization?
- [19:41:51] <edsu>
can the dates be done with hCal?
- [19:41:51] <bretonslivka>
i saw you guys talking about coming up with a core set
- [19:41:54] <bretonslivka>
and extending it
- [19:41:58] <bretonslivka>
for specific purposes
- [19:42:06] * rsinger hmms.
- [19:42:21] <briansuda>
which strawman - i think more than one appeared on different pages
- [19:42:39] <edsu>
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Straw_format_suggestion
- [19:42:55] <bretonslivka>
So cite would be extremely minimalist, and where it falls short, you add a module
- [19:43:12] <bretonslivka>
with its own container, the module potentially being reusable in other mf's
- [19:43:44] <bretonslivka>
for instance the idea of doing the work-of-art microformat as a special case of cite
- [19:43:48] <darcusb>
Ummm, I'm not sure. Brian and I opened by talking about that.
- [19:43:55] <edsu>
bretonslivka: i like the sound of that, but I'm wondering what that might look like in practice
- [19:44:06] <darcusb>
ditto edsu
- [19:44:23] <darcusb>
I think this gets us back to the class question, and the basic model.
- [19:44:32] <bretonslivka>
Well I sort of imagine a module being used the same way as hcard is being used now
- [19:44:32] <rsinger>
right
- [19:44:59] <briansuda>
what was the class question?
- [19:45:01] <bretonslivka>
so there's sort of an inherent heirarchy
- [19:45:06] <edsu>
bretonslivka: ok, but hcard has a spec to fall back on :)
- [19:45:07] <rsinger>
hmm, well, actually, this is an interesting idea
- [19:45:15] <darcusb>
Book, Article, etc.,etc.
- [19:45:23] <rsinger>
openurl addresses this issue by having community profiles
- [19:45:27] <rsinger>
each with their own schema
- [19:45:42] <rsinger>
some of which borrow vocabulary from each other
- [19:45:49] <darcusb>
Which I think is a bad idea, as I said on the list. If we do the model right, there's less need for this.
- [19:45:57] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:46:01] <rsinger>
but are each their own standalone document
- [19:46:48] <briansuda>
i am contemplating this class question, it seems to be a matter of TYPE, but depending on TYPE the locator might be slightly different
- [19:46:51] <edsu>
bretonslivka: i agree though, ideally hCite would get reused as we are conteplating reusing hCard and hCal cite-rel right now
- [19:47:17] <edsu>
erm, contemplating
- [19:47:18] <bretonslivka>
Okay so what about a reversal
- [19:47:26] <bretonslivka>
cite used as a module inside work-of-art
- [19:47:31] <briansuda>
e.g. Book has PAGE, CHAPTER, etc... Musical Work has Hr:Min:sec...
- [19:47:38] <bretonslivka>
or book
- [19:48:01] <edsu>
ok
- [19:48:07] <bretonslivka>
So each of these specific types may have their own MF with CITE as a module they use
- [19:48:24] <darcusb>
they don't need their own MF
- [19:48:44] <darcusb>
?
- [19:48:53] <bretonslivka>
well I think if you want to cover all of them, without overloading the properties in cite
- [19:48:58] <briansuda>
the other slightly tricky things about the CLASS is that i'm not sure how to translate that across Citation types. (i know BibTeX has taken its share of finger pointing - but they @class is an enumnerated list)
- [19:48:59] <bretonslivka>
you'll want to split this up somehow
- [19:49:12] <fresco>
common fields?:
- [19:49:13] <fresco>
item: title, authors, date, uid, uri
- [19:49:13] <fresco>
container: title, publisher, date, uid, uri, series
- [19:49:26] <briansuda>
bretonslivka, i think common fields is the answer too.
- [19:49:54] <fresco>
then things like pages, voume, issue that are common across certain classes
- [19:50:14] <bretonslivka>
ah but I'm speaking about what to do when you need properties that are not common to all of them
- [19:50:24] <edsu>
briansuda: the close you come to common fields the closer you approach DC
- [19:50:40] <rsinger>
and, frankly, uselessness
- [19:50:50] <fresco>
why uselessness?
- [19:50:51] <edsu>
yeah, but better than nothing for sure
- [19:51:22] <edsu>
it was the goal of DC afterall to sublimate citation for electronic resources
- [19:51:29] <darcusb>
DC becomes "useless" when people try to use it in a flat model.
- [19:51:32] <rsinger>
fresco: how would you semantically tell what dc:creator is?
- [19:51:40] <edsu>
darcusb: agreed
- [19:51:43] <bretonslivka>
what if cite is a subset of dc, for common fields. I would like to see an argument for why musical peice, work-of-art, photo, book shouldn't have their own mf's
- [19:51:54] <fresco>
rsinger: it's the creator of the item
- [19:51:59] <fresco>
:)
- [19:51:59] <edsu>
maybe we need a hDC instead of a hCite
- [19:52:03] <rsinger>
right
- [19:52:06] <rsinger>
what is that?
- [19:52:23] <fresco>
the person that created it
- [19:52:23] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has left #microformats
- [19:52:30] <rsinger>
not necessarily
- [19:52:40] <fresco>
the thing that created it
- [19:53:06] <briansuda>
I just want to do a quick time-check, we're all busy and don't want to keep people for too long, i saw this should only take an hour, so 10 minute warning!
- [19:53:13] <fresco>
so is this a flat model or not?
- [19:53:21] <darcusb>
No!!
- [19:53:26] <fresco>
good
- [19:53:30] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:53:30] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [19:53:33] <edsu>
briansuda: i'm starting to like your proposal of looking at DC and then reusing existing microformats as possible
- [19:53:33] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [19:54:05] <rsinger>
hmm
- [19:54:12] <briansuda>
The strawman that was posted can be constructed with alot of the DC properties.
- [19:54:24] <fresco>
the strawman seems to have a lot of chaff
- [19:54:26] <briansuda>
and existsing microformats
- [19:54:29] <fresco>
that could be got rid of
- [19:54:29] <darcusb>
In OpenDocument, we've been thinking of adding an extensible metadat system based around modules, with default ones for DC and DCQ.
- [19:54:39] <rsinger>
ok, right off, i'll tell you that DC doesn't work for actually getting to the item
- [19:54:45] <rsinger>
if it's, say, a journal article
- [19:54:55] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has left #microformats
- [19:55:10] <rsinger>
fresco: sorry, i should have used 'identifier' as my example
- [19:55:12] <edsu>
rsinger: you're talking DC without qualifiers?
- [19:55:12] <fresco>
rsinger: what's missing from DC?
- [19:55:21] <darcusb>
As I said above, DC is not sufficient on its own, but it does cover 75% of the needs.
- [19:55:28] <rsinger>
to 'resolve' any sort of journal article
- [19:55:31] <darcusb>
+ DCQ
- [19:55:43] <edsu>
darcusb: i guess that's not rsinger's 75% ;-)
- [19:55:48] <darcusb>
So add structures for locating them (doi, etc.).
- [19:56:09] <rsinger>
you /have/ to have a journal title||issn, a volume||issue and a year
- [19:56:16] <fresco>
things like language, relation and subject i don't think are necessary for a bibliography citation, but they might be useful for a 'self' citation
- [19:56:27] <briansuda>
Well, surpisingly no one has mentioned COiNs and only one OpenURL reference - anyone have an opinion about that?
- [19:56:34] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@63-231-153-22.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ()
- [19:56:42] <briansuda>
fresco, we can keep those as optional
- [19:56:48] <rsinger>
briansuda: i think this is where i'm supposed to chime in
- [19:56:54] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [19:56:56] * rsinger clears his throat.
- [19:57:05] <fresco>
the list of 'optionals' is going to be huge
- [19:57:11] * edsu chuckles
- [19:57:35] <rsinger>
briansuda: i think openurl is good for getting granularity -- but more importantly, i think creating a model that's 'compatible' with openurl is more important
- [19:58:08] <rsinger>
so whether or not openurl is used or not isn't all that important
- [19:58:13] <darcusb>
By 75%, I don't mean it's sufficient for 75% of citations. I mean it can represent 75% of any given citation's essential metadata.
- [19:58:25] <rsinger>
for instance, it's pretty easy to map bibtex to the important parts of openurl
- [19:58:38] <rsinger>
but bibtex citations seldomly have all the important bits
- [19:58:55] <rsinger>
darcusb: i agree with that
- [19:59:09] <rsinger>
darcus: and i note you avoided 80% :)
- [19:59:16] <darcusb>
:-)
- [19:59:23] <edsu>
heh
- [19:59:51] <bretonslivka>
So the question remains, that there's the problem of adding specifying properties, and we have a number of proposals for doing so
- [20:00:03] <rsinger>
yes
- [20:00:03] <edsu>
briansuda: so what have you and ryan cooked up for xtech?
- [20:00:19] <briansuda>
edsu, in the way of citations you mean? or in general
- [20:00:26] <edsu>
well, both i guess
- [20:00:27] <rsinger>
i would like to have something to bring to my conversation with MS tomorrow
- [20:00:47] <rsinger>
obviously not a spec
- [20:00:58] <rsinger>
but at least an idea that we have a clue of how to proceed
- [20:01:10] <briansuda>
for those of you who don't know ryan king and i will be doing a half-day presentation at XTECH
- [20:01:11] <edsu>
rsinger: what are you going to be talking about with them tomorrow again?
- [20:01:17] <darcusb>
I say we first agree the model not be flat.
- [20:01:22] <rsinger>
edsu: academic live search
- [20:01:29] <rsinger>
darcusb: i agree with that
- [20:01:30] <darcusb>
Then we agree on the basic structure of it.
- [20:01:37] <fresco>
darcusb: so that would be like an RDF model, where attributes are applied to items?
- [20:02:01] <darcusb>
And finally the business of a core set of types, and the core properties. (fresco: yes)
- [20:02:47] <fresco>
that would be the main difference from the strawman then
- [20:02:59] <darcusb>
That makes it easy to then extend as needed.
- [20:03:11] <rsinger>
i think i need to see an example
- [20:03:18] <bretonslivka>
My main question is how you plan to extend it
- [20:03:20] <darcusb>
I don't think it's be hugely different.
- [20:03:22] <bretonslivka>
just add more properties?
- [20:03:22] <rsinger>
but i like where i think this is going
- [20:03:33] <fresco>
actually the strawman is pretty much like that already
- [20:03:43] <darcusb>
Yes, add properties as needed, but within a smart structure.
- [20:04:16] <bretonslivka>
what is a "smart structure" exactly?
- [20:04:29] <darcusb>
Not flat for one.
- [20:04:48] <fresco>
modular, i think this means
- [20:05:21] <darcusb>
Secondly, one that accounts for the basic structures common to all of the potential types; in my RDF model, I have References, Collections, Events, and Agents.
- [20:05:45] <darcusb>
Yeah, modular.
- [20:05:55] <fresco>
events is outside this scope, i think
- [20:06:14] <rsinger>
events could mean dates, no?
- [20:06:17] <fresco>
there's hevent for that
- [20:06:19] <rsinger>
issue?
- [20:06:23] <darcusb>
For how do you deal with hearings then? Or a paper presented at a conference?
- [20:06:46] <darcusb>
Yes, events have dates, and sponsors, and locations.
- [20:07:28] <briansuda>
Citation Events will need to be added to the wiki
- [20:07:39] <bretonslivka>
<div class='hcite'><div class='vevent'></div></div>
- [20:07:40] <edsu>
briansuda: so umm, nothing cooked up for citations yet then eh?
- [20:08:00] <darcusb>
fwiw, the strawman uses "venue", which might get at it.
- [20:08:00] <rsinger>
so... can hCal handle the date/event?
- [20:08:17] <darcusb>
I'll look into it, but my hunch is yes.
- [20:08:21] <darcusb>
?
- [20:08:42] <briansuda>
edsu, very little of anything so far... this i just an intro course, the later half will be more of the nitty-gritty where citations might pop-up
- [20:08:49] <edsu>
yeah, microformats are by nature intended to be modular so i don't think there's much danger of being stuck with a flat model
- [20:09:11] <briansuda>
hCalendar would have everything we need for an Event reference
- [20:09:18] <fresco>
so of that list, we need to hande References and Collections
- [20:09:20] <rsinger>
perfect
- [20:09:45] <briansuda>
edsu, i will also be presenting at www2006, so that will be a good place to demo some citation data as well
- [20:10:03] <edsu>
briansuda: nice!
- [20:10:08] <rsinger>
darcusb: is 'references' stuff like article title or whatever?
- [20:10:15] <briansuda>
http://www2006.org/programme/paper.php?id=d7
- [20:10:16] <darcusb>
Collection as I use it includes subclasses like Periodical (and in turn Journal and such) and Series.
- [20:10:30] <rsinger>
good, that's how i pictured it
- [20:10:34] <darcusb>
rsinger: yes, all the other stuff are subclasses of that.
- [20:11:01] <rsinger>
right
- [20:11:15] <bretonslivka>
Slight change of pace, has anyone here been to easybib.com ?
- [20:11:21] <darcusb>
BTW, Reference is itself a subclass of frbr:Manifestation :-)
- [20:11:30] <rsinger>
so work-of-art would have something like 'materials' or something
- [20:11:35] <bretonslivka>
it's like one of those microformat generators, but generates citations in mla format
- [20:11:59] <edsu>
kind of like thatscrazyhot.com
- [20:12:06] <rsinger>
yeah
- [20:12:17] <bretonslivka>
Work of art would need in the least medium, and dimensions
- [20:12:24] <briansuda>
darcusb, do you have a link to your RDF model
- [20:12:25] <edsu>
bretonslivka: bookmarked :)
- [20:12:34] <bretonslivka>
and photo requires a slightly different set of properties
- [20:12:39] <darcusb>
http://purl.org/net/biblio
- [20:12:51] <darcusb>
note: it does not really include propreties (at least yet)
- [20:13:19] <rsinger>
holy crap
- [20:13:29] <rsinger>
ok, that might be a little ambitious
- [20:13:33] <bretonslivka>
Then it's also immportant to note that work-of-art isn't just paintings, but sculptures as well
- [20:13:51] <bretonslivka>
so a dimensions would require three axes in some cases
- [20:14:18] * rsinger watches hCite implode under the weight of its own mass.
- [20:15:15] * kingryan watches rsinger watch hCite implode
- [20:15:18] <edsu>
darcusb: does that healthy list of classes coexist with anything like the DC core set?
- [20:15:20] <fresco>
that's not hCite, that's hArt
- [20:15:30] <briansuda>
when i started working on a citation format i NEVER imagined it would go down a road with SO MANY choices!!
- [20:15:47] <darcusb>
:-)
- [20:15:52] <edsu>
briansuda: this bibliography thing is well, kinda old :)
- [20:15:55] <briansuda>
My take is to gather as much stuff as possible, then start with the BARE minimum
- [20:16:15] <edsu>
dc is the closest thing to a bare minimum that i can think of
- [20:16:19] <rsinger>
ugh
- [20:16:25] <fresco>
dc has more than the bare minimum
- [20:16:28] <edsu>
perhaps too bare for some :)
- [20:16:50] <rsinger>
i'm telling you -- it's going to be an exercise in futility if the citation can't lead to the actual item
- [20:16:50] <briansuda>
we don't have to stop at minimum, just start their.
- [20:16:55] <edsu>
but if there was anything like the ability to do qualification with hCite it would be pretty cool
- [20:17:02] <darcusb>
I think that's fine Brian. In my own data, I mostly use DC properties for the actual description. I just felt the need fo something comprehensive that describe types in actual use.
- [20:17:15] <edsu>
DC has a decent history of usage on the web too
- [20:17:15] <rsinger>
formatting for display is so 2001
- [20:17:32] <darcusb>
Tell that to journal publishers!
- [20:17:32] <bretonslivka>
all up hArt would only add 2 or 3 properties to hCite.
- [20:17:36] <rsinger>
ha!
- [20:18:01] <edsu>
darcusb: do you have time to sketch out a sample citation being marked up in xhtml?
- [20:18:05] <rsinger>
darcusb: well, whatever we come up with will probably be incorporated by the institute of mathematical statistics
- [20:18:36] <darcusb>
in reply to edsu, Is Alf here
- [20:18:38] <darcusb>
?
- [20:18:44] <edsu>
alf =~ fresco
- [20:18:45] <rsinger>
although i don't know how open they'd be to theoretical ideas
- [20:18:57] <fresco>
yes, hi
- [20:18:58] <edsu>
darcusb: :)
- [20:19:15] <darcusb>
Good. He and I were working on this along with citeproc, so we could probably whip something up?
- [20:19:15] <fresco>
there are two uses here still: enough information to locate the cited item from the information given, and enough information to describe the current page for export
- [20:19:17] <rsinger>
darcusb: if there's an xhtml example, i can try marking up our ETDs in such a way
- [20:19:29] <briansuda>
the other nice thing about microformats is that we are NOT a standards body - we can launch a citation microformat 0.1 use it for 2 months and add to it as needed we don't need to answer every possible senario in this conversation
- [20:20:11] <rsinger>
poor niso... so easy to kick in the pants
- [20:20:33] <bretonslivka>
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/
- [20:20:41] <edsu>
briansuda: perhaps but hCite has been just as slow moving :)
- [20:20:58] <bretonslivka>
I look at xhtml as a potential model for modularization of hcite
- [20:21:44] <rsinger>
ok, from my perspective: focusing on journals/articles, books, proceedings and ETDs are the lowest hanging fruit
- [20:21:51] <briansuda>
agreeded - but i think we are all in the same room and getting onto the same page - the good and bad of a wiki is that anyone can contribute but everyone seems to wait for someone else.
- [20:22:04] <rsinger>
govdocs only if the appear in the current GPO catalog
- [20:22:21] <fresco>
can there be a fresh wiki page to create a recommendation?
- [20:22:30] <briansuda>
certainly!
- [20:22:33] <rsinger>
can we focus on those types of items?
- [20:22:37] <fresco>
ie not the actual spec page, but later than brainstorming
- [20:22:46] <briansuda>
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-recommendation
- [20:22:46] <darcusb>
So shall we wrap this up? Maybe we can get working on some fuller examples based on the strawman and the work that Alf was doing? E.g. fresco's rec on the wiki page?
- [20:23:01] <bretonslivka>
some of the modules in xhtml contain only one element.
- [20:23:12] <briansuda>
darcus, that sounds like a good idea.
- [20:23:19] <edsu>
briansuda: yeah, that's true -- the guy who sparked this by putting a strawman in there isn't even here apparently--or is he?
- [20:23:32] <rsinger>
briansuda is right -- let's not try to solve the whole problem at once
- [20:23:38] <briansuda>
no, i think he couldn't make it.
- [20:24:05] <briansuda>
i think MIKE added it, http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-irc-meetup he said this was a bad weekend for him
- [20:24:11] <rsinger>
and, instead, think about how to deal with the most commonly cited objects
- [20:24:19] <fresco>
so what's the consensus with hidden data - leave it out, or include it hidden?
- [20:24:31] <rsinger>
include it!
- [20:24:33] <rsinger>
INCLUDE IT
- [20:24:35] <bretonslivka>
there's hidden data?
- [20:24:39] <rsinger>
for the love of god
- [20:24:41] <rsinger>
include it
- [20:24:48] <fresco>
include it hidden?
- [20:24:50] <darcusb>
I vote for adding it where appropriate (dates, names, etc.)
- [20:24:50] <edsu>
well there is a precedent for hidden data in hCal isn't there?
- [20:24:52] <briansuda>
also, anyone else, please feel free to add yourself to this page http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-irc-meetup for future meet-ups (if needed)
- [20:24:54] <rsinger>
sure
- [20:24:58] <rsinger>
whatever
- [20:25:04] <rsinger>
include!
- [20:25:24] <bretonslivka>
Abbr pattern
- [20:25:26] <edsu>
fresco: you have a strawman too?
- [20:25:50] <edsu>
bretonslivka: thanks that's what i was trying to remember
- [20:25:51] <briansuda>
the general sentiment in microformats is to keep AS MUCH displayed. the ABBR does allow for the displayed information to be styled so it is human readable.
- [20:26:08] <fresco>
edsu: only the xhtml usage i have so far
- [20:26:16] <edsu>
fresco: is it on the wiki?
- [20:26:21] <fresco>
no
- [20:26:37] <edsu>
you know the wiki is great, but the info for citation is sprawling
- [20:27:04] <briansuda>
this IRC chat is logged and saved to HTML for reference, but i'll try and condense it into a better notes on the wiki
- [20:27:06] <edsu>
i have trouble finding may way through it -- it's like a wonderful collage
- [20:27:17] <rsinger>
i realize that the mf thing is to show everything
- [20:27:28] <edsu>
is it too early just to put together a draft to focus on?
- [20:27:31] <rsinger>
but i think there's going to be data in a citation that's useful but not used
- [20:27:34] <briansuda>
we have wiki gardeners, but the citation area is well overgrown!
- [20:27:49] <edsu>
wiki_gardeners++
- [20:27:53] <rsinger>
er, not displayed
- [20:28:15] <rsinger>
hmm
- [20:28:28] <rsinger>
maybe, though, that's where COinS and hCite can fit in
- [20:28:31] <edsu>
rsinger: as long as it can be seen as a extension of some more limited visile data abbr will work for that stuff
- [20:28:36] * rsinger ponders.
- [20:28:42] <briansuda>
rsinger, i think you might be right, but lets cross that bridge once we have solid examples - we can vet those examples to people who have ZERO interest in citations and see what they think
- [20:29:14] <rsinger>
well, what do you think about using COinS for the non-displaying things?
- [20:29:31] <fresco>
edsu: i can think of data that wouldn't be in an abbr
- [20:29:35] <rsinger>
that sort of solves the problem, no?
- [20:29:43] <edsu>
briansuda: just as an example, could we task fresco with coming up with a draft? :-)
- [20:29:47] <darcusb>
I gotta go. Do we have some consensus on what to do?
- [20:29:56] <fresco>
that's what i was going to do on the recommendation page
- [20:30:03] <edsu>
fresco++
- [20:30:07] <rsinger>
darcusb: yes, you draw up an example :)
- [20:30:11] <fresco>
i'll start that and then people can hack at it
- [20:30:20] <edsu>
rawk
- [20:30:21] <darcusb>
sounds good fresco
- [20:30:23] <rsinger>
or alf, whoever :)
- [20:30:49] <briansuda>
here's everyone's chance to assign me some homework - i've volunteered to co-ordinate this effort so tell me what i can do to help everyone?
- [20:30:58] <edsu>
briansuda: is that ok just to put a draft up there?
- [20:31:07] <edsu>
briansuda: for us to focus on?
- [20:31:18] <briansuda>
edsu, go for it, add the draft
- [20:31:20] <rsinger>
how about everyone pitch in the bare minimum of what they need to get their agenda met?
- [20:31:34] <rsinger>
ok, i better go
- [20:31:48] <edsu>
briansuda: it sounds like fresco is going to throw something up initially for us to focus on
- [20:31:54] * rsinger (n=rsinger@c-24-98-252-118.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit ()
- [20:32:16] <darcusb>
I'm quite comfortable with fresco putting something up for use to work on.
- [20:32:25] <darcusb>
gotta go; ciao.
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- [20:33:23] <edsu>
fresco: can you ping us on uf-discuss when it's available?
- [20:33:34] <fresco>
ok
- [20:33:38] <briansuda>
edsu, if there is something specific for XTECH you'd like us to cover let me know i'll see what i can do
- [20:33:41] <edsu>
fresco: i didn't mean to volunteer you, but you seem to understand the different points of view the best
- [20:34:08] <briansuda>
fresco, if there is anything i can do to help let me know as well.
- [20:34:13] <edsu>
briansuda: i guess if we had any sort of draft that you could throw past people, like you were planning on doing that would probably do wonders
- [20:34:47] <edsu>
fresco: i don't entirely grok what darcusb was getting at, apart from us just using his model :)
- [20:35:19] <briansuda>
we have 4/5 weeks before the conference i hope we will have something substantial by then
- [20:35:50] <edsu>
cool - i need to run, got a 1 week old baby that needs some attention ...
- [20:36:14] * dsalo (n=dsalo@ip68-100-18-183.dc.dc.cox.net) has left #microformats
- [20:36:49] <edsu>
thanks for making this happen, just the convo is useful i think, and being able to focus on a draft instead of the sprawling wiki citation garden will help me a lot
- [20:37:24] <briansuda>
edsu, that was the plan, good to see it is working
- [20:37:30] <edsu>
i guess it's evidence that we definitely did go out and look how citations are being done
- [20:37:41] <briansuda>
too good!
- [20:37:42] <edsu>
:-)
- [20:37:45] * bretonslivka (n=bretonsl@c-67-190-186-46.hsd1.co.comcast.net) Quit ("My damn controlling terminal disappeared!")
- [20:37:47] * edsu chuckles
- [20:37:58] <edsu>
ok, i'm away
- [20:41:19] * briansuda starts picking-up empty bottles and cleans ash trays after everyone left the party
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tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [21:58:01] <cks_>
again
- [21:58:11] <cks_>
sorry, wrong group
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tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [22:46:40] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-recommendation * AlfEaton * (+3281) started, following irc discussion
- [22:47:46] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5753 * AlfEaton * (+4)
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- [22:50:19] * tantek tries to read up on irc citation discussion
- [22:50:40] <tantek>
as far as i can tell, too much talk of older, over-designed models, and not enough talk of real world examples
- [22:50:43] <tantek>
:(
- [22:53:37] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5754 * AlfEaton * (-58)
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- [23:18:54] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5755 * AlfEaton * (+0)
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- [23:39:00] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5756 * BDarcus * (+241) changed generic "number" class to "issue"
- [23:45:36] <mfbot>
[[citation-recommendation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-recommendation&diff=0&oldid=5757 * BDarcus * (+667) Additional elements for a book citation -
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karlUshi is karlcow
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