IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-04-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  10. [01:10:29] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  17. [02:20:16] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  18. [02:29:00] * bear_dinner is now known as bear
  19. [02:33:17] <mfbot> [[irc-meetups]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-meetups&diff=0&oldid=6129 * Brian * (+1013) IRC Meetups -
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  21. [02:39:02] <pnhChris> anyone have a moment to eyeball some hatom/author markup and make sure there aren't any silly issues on my end?
  22. [02:39:17] <pnhChris> ...anywhere on http://chunkysoup.net/
  23. [02:41:27] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  24. [02:41:27] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  25. [02:42:05] <briansuda> pnhChris, i'm not 100% sure, but i think you are still missing a class="author"
  26. [02:42:29] <briansuda> where you have <address class="vcard"> you will need to add 'author' to the list
  27. [02:42:39] <pnhChris> btw, the datetime padding in the latest hatom2atom.xsl is working on the places on the site that need it... but they're fairly simple cases
  28. [02:42:41] <briansuda> <address class="vcard author">
  29. [02:43:18] <pnhChris> probably .. lemme double check the docs and my templates
  30. [02:45:02] <pnhChris> figured i'd ask someone to look before claiming things were down to just 2 atom validation issues popping up :)
  31. [02:46:06] <briansuda> i'm still looking it over, i'm not an hAtom expert...
  32. [02:46:33] <pnhChris> no.. its there.. in 0.1 at least.. "find the Nearest In Parent <address> element(s) with class name author and that is/are a valid hCard"
  33. [02:47:10] <pnhChris> let me add the class and see if the xslt file picks it up
  34. [02:47:28] <briansuda> one other things too
  35. [02:48:00] <briansuda> i think that the class="author" needs to be in the same 'container' as the hfeed, so your <div class="page">
  36. [02:48:15] <briansuda> i think your author is outside of that, maybe that's why it is not picking it up
  37. [02:50:50] <pnhChris> no.. i just added author and its picking it up now
  38. [02:51:16] <briansuda> ok.
  39. [02:51:48] <pnhChris> and that home page is now down to 1 error and 2 warnings when I pass it through the feed validator
  40. [02:52:00] <pnhChris> .. pass the output of the transform through
  41. [02:53:55] <briansuda> what is the error?
  42. [02:54:37] <pnhChris> feed level updated is an empty tag
  43. [02:56:24] <pnhChris> well
  44. [02:56:39] <pnhChris> the error is:
  45. [02:56:42] <pnhChris> line 3, column 12: updated must be an RFC-3339 date-time [help]
  46. [02:56:42] <pnhChris> <updated/>
  47. [02:57:14] <briansuda> and what does you <update> look like? ISO date-time?
  48. [02:57:42] <pnhChris> there isn't a feed level updated time in the html doc
  49. [02:57:59] <pnhChris> only individual entry data
  50. [02:58:12] <pnhChris> which are getting read and padded fine
  51. [02:58:20] <pnhChris> where needed
  52. [02:58:53] <pnhChris> http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lukearno.com%2Fprojects%2Fhatom2atom%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fchunkysoup.net%252F%26ctype%3Dtext%252Fxml
  53. [02:59:01] <pnhChris> if you want to look
  54. [02:59:15] <tantek> nice double escaped : there
  55. [02:59:25] <tantek> %253A
  56. [02:59:27] <briansuda> i'm looking at the hAtom spec at the moment to see
  57. [02:59:50] * tantek wonders just where this feeding of urls to urls to urls ends
  58. [03:00:11] <pnhChris> it ends when feed validator knows hatom :P
  59. [03:00:29] <pnhChris> and evening tantek
  60. [03:01:09] <briansuda> UNIX pipes for the web
  61. [03:01:30] <briansuda> validate | hAtom2atom | html
  62. [03:01:38] <tantek> indeed
  63. [03:03:12] <briansuda> well looking at the hAtom spec it doesn't seem to mention Feed level <updated>, but i can't believe they forgot a required element
  64. [03:03:42] <pnhChris> well, it can be one of two things
  65. [03:03:50] <pnhChris> that updated is there, but with invalid data
  66. [03:04:02] <pnhChris> .. but isn't required to be there
  67. [03:04:07] <pnhChris> or it is required to be there
  68. [03:04:44] <briansuda> the XSLT file will extract an <updated> if a class="updated" is at the feed level
  69. [03:05:03] <briansuda> given that the feed validator is throwing an error, i would think it IS required
  70. [03:05:43] <briansuda> are there other sites out there that are encoded in hAtom, you can pass them through the feedvalidator and see if they pass
  71. [03:05:47] <pnhChris> hatom-issues text has "If no element with the class name updated is present, use the youngest updated from the feed's entries"
  72. [03:06:08] <pnhChris> which makes sense, in that case it would be that the xslt file isn't doing that yet
  73. [03:06:16] <pnhChris> .. or properly yet
  74. [03:07:10] <briansuda> <!-- TODO: When there is no element with class="updated" at the feed level
  75. [03:07:10] <briansuda> We might want to try to use the element from the entry level
  76. [03:07:10] <briansuda> with the greatest (newest) date-time
  77. [03:07:10] <briansuda> -->
  78. [03:07:17] <briansuda> that is a comment in their code
  79. [03:07:41] <pnhChris> you beat me to looking at the xslt file.. i was chasing other hatom pages and finding they're not parsing
  80. [03:07:45] <briansuda> so it looks like you have a valid hAtom feed, but not a valid Atom feed (yet)
  81. [03:09:07] <tantek> isn't it supposed to also derive the "updated" from the "published" date if there is no explicit "updated"
  82. [03:09:11] <tantek> ?
  83. [03:09:26] <briansuda> it is doing that at the hentry level
  84. [03:11:22] <tantek> does it require an explict "hfeed" ?
  85. [03:11:43] <briansuda> no, that is optional. if none is present it assumes the page is the feed
  86. [03:12:02] <tantek> it should be able to take multiple "hentry"s and make them into a feed, whereas I'm getting a one-entry feed when I transform my blog: http://www.lukearno.com/projects/hatom2atom/?url=http%3A//tantek.com/
  87. [03:12:22] <pnhChris> yeah, the feed level output looks similar to on soundadvice to mine
  88. [03:13:11] <pnhChris> but i can't validate it cause the feed is too big .. .or at least the front page one is
  89. [03:14:06] <pnhChris> 2 errors there...
  90. [03:14:14] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  91. [03:14:33] <pnhChris> feed level updated and an error being thrown due to the email obfuscation
  92. [03:14:34] <pnhChris> http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lukearno.com%2Fprojects%2Fhatom2atom%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.soundadvice.id.au%252Fblog%252F2006%252F04%252F11%252F%2523namespaces%26ctype%3Dtext%252Fxml
  93. [03:15:04] <pnhChris> ... and some more nice double encoding
  94. [03:15:07] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@63-231-153-22.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ()
  95. [03:20:32] <pnhChris> ah well, i've got to ask robert about some other stuff next time I see him on so I'll bring this up too
  96. [03:20:40] <pnhChris> the progress has been real good though
  97. [03:21:06] <briansuda> yeah. it is good to see.
  98. [03:21:33] <briansuda> i'm excited about the ability to just keep 'piping' all these urls into one another and get data back
  99. [03:21:37] <pnhChris> now to figure out how to check if a shell command exists via applescript
  100. [03:22:24] <briansuda> i think there is an HTML Request call
  101. [03:23:11] <pnhChris> theres probably more direct ways
  102. [03:23:22] <pnhChris> interrogating where or something
  103. [03:24:25] <pnhChris> but the applescript i wrote so you can subsribe to hatom pages isn't using Tidy becuase I don't know if its on the system
  104. [03:25:11] <briansuda> i have Tidy on my system, but i have the dev tools installed.
  105. [03:26:09] <pnhChris> don't here... and i do too.. but i'm still running 10.3.9 not 10.4 on this box
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  107. [03:28:05] <briansuda> i'm sure there is a binary to download somewhere
  108. [03:30:30] <pnhChris> yes.. but i don't want to distribute or require it
  109. [03:31:12] <pnhChris> i got no problem installing it here if i need it.. i'm sure i had it at one point / format
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  111. [03:32:00] <briansuda> well, maybe some one would host the service with TIDY cleaning things automatically
  112. [03:32:15] <briansuda> although, i have had my share of problems with TIDY lately!
  113. [03:32:38] <pnhChris> i think the proxy does use tidy
  114. [03:33:33] <pnhChris> but i was just using the xsl file and xsltproc
  115. [03:34:35] <briansuda> there might be a TIDY only web service out there you could use.
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  118. [03:35:12] <pnhChris> i just didn't want to require any external services
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  120. [03:37:40] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=6130 * Brian * (+107) Upcoming -
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  144. [10:50:26] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
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  150. [12:17:25] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  155. [13:03:13] <DanC_lap> "it ends when feed validator knows hatom :P" not a bad idea. anybody want to submit patches? (w3.org runs a feed validator)
  156. [13:21:38] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-79-46.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
  157. [13:21:41] <pnhChris> maybe i'm overly cautious, but i'd think i'd look for a bit more resolution/agreement to some of the items on the hatom-issues document before looking to codify things
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  160. [13:38:30] <DanC_lap> trying out http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume on http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/misc/vita ...
  161. [13:38:54] <DanC_lap> affiliation says to use a vcard for the org, but I give my title at those orgs
  162. [13:41:26] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.gen.twtelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  163. [13:42:28] <DanC_lap> bummer that URL in vcard doesn't say whether it's the url of the person or the URL of the org
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  166. [13:44:11] <DanC_lap> and the way my organization does contact info on a vita doesn't fit in <address>
  167. [13:45:38] <DanC_lap> hmm... maybe it fits in 2 <address>'s
  168. [13:45:55] <DanC_lap> the <object> trick is cute...
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  170. [13:57:34] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N097P017.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  171. [13:57:34] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
  172. [14:00:11] <DanC_lap> wierd... x2v seems to require the id to be on the parent of the relevant element.
  173. [14:01:56] <pnhChris> morning RobertBachmann .. you gonna be around for a bit today?
  174. [14:02:47] <RobertBachmann> hi. I'll be around for the next 90 minutes or so.
  175. [14:02:59] <RobertBachmann> I'm just reading the logs of today
  176. [14:08:00] <davecardwell> on the home page of a website I'm creating has a latest news entry which I've marked up with hCalendar
  177. [14:08:03] <davecardwell> <h2 class="summary"> for the title, <abbr class="dtstart"> for the day it was posted, <p class="description"> for a longer post summary, and <a class="url"> for a link to the full entry
  178. [14:08:07] <davecardwell> is this an appropriate use of hCalendar, or should I be using something else like hAtom (I'll be marking up the main news page with hAtom)?
  179. [14:11:21] <RobertBachmann> If your news are events use hCalendar otherwise use hAtom
  180. [14:12:06] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  181. [14:12:06] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  182. [14:16:18] <pnhChris> ok.. well mostly just wanted to ask if you've got any other xsl changes to commit in the next day or two
  183. [14:16:56] <pnhChris> ... i can mail you / the mf list about the other stuff i wanted to chat about... validating and such.. don't have the time to get into that now
  184. [14:17:55] <pnhChris> RobertBachmann: but are there any more changes to the datetime padding you still have to do, or anything else like moving the updated dates to the feed level that you're going to get to soon
  185. [14:18:26] <pnhChris> if not I'll push out a new netnewswire script as soon as I hear from my qa tester or two
  186. [14:19:53] <RobertBachmann> I'm planning to do some work over the weekend but I'm not sure if there will be a new commit within the next days.
  187. [14:22:18] <RobertBachmann> re: mail, either mail the mf maillinglist or the hatom2atom mailling list <http://rbach.priv.at/Lists/listinfo/hatom2atom>.
  188. [14:22:30] <pnhChris> np.. i'll hold off till next week.. i can't do anythign today anyway
  189. [14:22:40] <pnhChris> if theres a checkin there is.. if not there's not
  190. [14:23:40] <pnhChris> as for progress... with the last checkin the html on chunkysoup.net -> xslt proxy -> feed validator.org is down to 1 error and 2 different warnings
  191. [14:23:54] <pnhChris> (probably see that discussion in the logs from last night)
  192. [14:26:53] <RobertBachmann> I'm currently looking at http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lukearno.com%2Fprojects%2Fhatom2atom%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%2F%2Fchunkysoup.net%2F%26ctype%3Dtext%2Fxml
  193. [14:27:29] <RobertBachmann> re: "line 3, column 12: updated must be an RFC-3339 date-time"
  194. [14:27:29] <RobertBachmann> The algorithm described at <http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues#Feed_updated_.28atom:updated.29> is not yet implemented
  195. [14:27:29] <RobertBachmann> but I'd like to implement it within the next two weeks.
  196. [14:28:02] <RobertBachmann> re: line 5, column 78: Same-document reference [help] <link rel="alternate" href="http://chunkysoup.net/#posts" type="text/html"/>
  197. [14:28:35] <RobertBachmann> I'm confused. What's the problem here?
  198. [14:30:25] <davecardwell> RobertBachmann: thanks
  199. [14:33:26] <pnhChris> i'd have to chase it in the atom specs / validator because i don't know really... was something i was gonna ask when I brought it up on the list
  200. [14:37:22] <RobertBachmann> re: <tantek> it should be able to take multiple "hentry"s and make them into a feed, whereas I'm getting a one-entry feed when I transform my blog: http://www.lukearno.com/projects/hatom2atom/?url=http%3A//tantek.com/
  201. [14:37:23] <RobertBachmann> See <http://rbach.priv.at/hAtom2Atom/readme.txt> for info on the $implicit-feed parameter.
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  204. [14:45:00] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  213. [15:25:21] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=6131 * RobertBachmann * (+269) Robert Bachmann - hAtom2Atom TODO
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  222. [16:02:09] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  223. [16:06:47] * pnhChris is now known as pnhAway
  224. [16:10:23] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=6132 * DrErnie * (+60) References -
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  229. [16:29:45] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=6133 * PhilWilson * (+106) added University of Bath What's On to list of examples
  230. [16:30:43] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  231. [16:30:43] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  232. [16:32:22] <dglazkov> quick poll: what does tilda in path (i.e. http://some-site.com/path/~stuff mean?
  233. [16:37:00] <briansuda> user directory
  234. [16:37:09] <briansuda> ~username
  235. [16:47:47] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.gen.twtelecom.net) Quit ("Free at last!")
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  239. [17:10:50] <evanpro> is that really a poll?
  240. [17:10:52] <evanpro> Per se?
  241. [17:10:55] <evanpro> Or just a question?
  242. [17:10:58] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  243. [17:15:04] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-45-41-53.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  244. [17:15:05] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  245. [17:23:17] * jcgregorio_ (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.2/2006030804]")
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  249. [17:33:09] <dglazkov> does it matter?
  250. [17:34:26] <evanpro> dglazkov: for the record
  251. [17:34:29] <evanpro> for posterity
  252. [17:34:55] <dglazkov> it's a poll/question :)
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  256. [17:57:25] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  262. [18:18:58] <jibot> RodBegbie is a grumpy Scots git. Blogs at http://groovymother.com/ Earns pay at Bose.
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  275. [19:48:07] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  281. [20:49:03] <pnhChris> here's a sorta silly question.. can you nest hfeeds?
  282. [20:51:58] <pnhChris> say.. if you had a sample hfeed in a document's content area on a site... and then you later went back and changed the site's template so that every page supported hatom and the content area of every page -- regardless of whats there -- became the content item of the new feed... what would you be left with
  283. [20:57:16] <briansuda> i would say No, just because it doesn't map to Atom then... so it wouldn't make much sense. Although, with the XSLT i bet it would actually give you a feed for each nested item, then one big feed with all the items... so i'm not sure
  284. [20:58:28] <pnhChris> how do you mean not map to atom?
  285. [20:58:56] <pnhChris> (i should probably look at all the opacity stuff before asking silly questions that are probably already answered)
  286. [20:59:24] <briansuda> can you nest feeds in Atom?
  287. [20:59:55] <pnhChris> that's not what you're doing though... it would be an atom feed that has html in the content.. that happens to contain hatom markup
  288. [21:00:32] <pnhChris> its a hatom rules/parsing/opacity question more then an atom one
  289. [21:01:34] <briansuda> that is a good question... does hAtom currently tag HTML along, or does it extract only the text?
  290. [21:02:00] <pnhChris> its not a pressing question really.. I was just going to add hatom to a page with status updates in a small piece of content... but i know next time i redesign the site the sitewide templates wil lhave hatom wrapping everything
  291. [21:02:25] <pnhChris> oh, its grabs the whole chunky of html
  292. [21:02:35] <pnhChris> and drops it in atom content/atom sumamry
  293. [21:05:17] <pnhChris> opaqueness, not opacity
  294. [21:07:52] <pnhChris> i guess it comes down to parsing rules and whether a parser is expected to see an hfeed element inside of a content element... and most of the parsing document has yet to be written
  295. [21:08:48] * jbergius (n=jbergius@a88-112-42-2.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #microformats
  296. [21:11:57] <briansuda> yes, i would agree, but i don't have an answer
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  300. [21:19:39] <pnhChris> kicked off a message to the list
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  304. [21:33:34] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=6134 * RyanKing * (+91) 0.1 hAtom implementations - added scribbish as an implementation
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  306. [21:38:10] <briansuda> Has anyone seen this: http://www.sswug.org/see/28488 XML Matters: Pipestreaming microformats, (you need to be a member to read the article)
  307. [21:42:25] <briansuda> i found the full article for free http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/x-matters44.html?ca=drs-
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  319. [22:50:52] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
  320. [22:50:57] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=6135 * Dan Kubb * (+39) People on irc -
  321. [22:53:33] <mfbot> [[User:Dan Kubb]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Dan_Kubb * Dan Kubb * (+62)
  322. [22:55:09] * dkubb (n=dankubb@207-194-143-166.dsl.axion.net) has left #microformats
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  324. [23:00:04] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  325. [23:00:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  326. [23:00:28] <kingryan> hey DanC, you around?
  327. [23:02:57] <kingryan> any xslt experts around here?
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  330. [23:40:43] * pnhChris is now known as pnhAway

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