IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-06-01
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [01:27:15] <mfbot> [[irc]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=6487 * Smackman * (+48) 
- [01:28:06] <mfbot> [[User:Smackman]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Smackman * Smackman * (+29) 
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- [01:59:16] <tantek> DanC, bewest, if you're still around, take a look at http://kitchen.technorati.com/ 
- [02:00:52] <DanC> wild... http://kitchen.technorati.com/search?s=Edinburgh shows http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/#www2006 
- [02:01:17] <DanC> though "3 minutes ago" seems like an indexing artifact 
- [02:03:11] <DanC> several dups on http://kitchen.technorati.com/search?s=tantek 
- [02:03:37] <tantek> yes, we have some dedupping work to do ;) 
- [02:03:58] <tantek> this is a technology preview, but definitely good enough for folks to bang on and test out 
- [02:04:04] <DanC> it hasn't discovered some obvious event info. http://kitchen.technorati.com/search?s=royals  . maybe that's not in hCalendar anywhere yet. are you going to look at .ics stuff? 
- [02:04:16] <tantek> not sure 
- [02:04:26] <tantek> maybe if we build a .ics->hCalendar proxy and just use that ;) 
- [02:04:38] <tantek> the problem with .ics files is, you can't permalink to something in the file 
- [02:04:44] <tantek> they're not very web-like 
- [02:05:31] <DanC> web... indeed. big strike against. 
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- [02:05:47] <DanC> hmm... http://kitchen.technorati.com/search?s=Aspen yields http://technorati.com/about/staff.html#peter_hirshberg but I can't find "Aspen" on that page 
- [02:06:10] * DanC was hoping to hit http://www.motherlodevolleyball.com/
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- [02:06:39] <DanC> "Labor Day Weekend - August 31 through September 4, 2006 Aspen, Colorado" crying out for hCalendar 
- [02:06:47] <DanC> as are all conference CFPs 
- [02:07:16] <tantek> DanC, try clicking on Peter in that page 
- [02:07:26] * DanC wishes http://www.motherlodevolleyball.com/ would get a few more webmastering clues
- [02:08:04] <DanC> oh. hm. 
- [02:08:33] <DanC> something tells me the little pictures should have names under them 
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- [04:05:16] <Jonnay> I don't suppose anyone has the microformat date pattern in SMARTY (ugh) format... 
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- [07:46:02] <mfbot> [[implementations]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=6488 * FrancoisHodierne * (+116) Microformats Implementors And Implementations - 
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- [08:07:26] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org> 
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- [08:22:38] <bunnywabbit_> hello! 
- [08:22:52] * bunnywabbit_ is here about comments :-)
- [08:23:58] <bunnywabbit_> tantek: still up? 
- [08:24:41] <tantek> greetings 
- [08:24:51] <bunnywabbit_> ?def bunnywabbit_ is Stephanie Booth (Lausanne, CH) at http://climbtothestars.org and working for http://cocomment.com 
- [08:24:51] <jibot> bunnywabbit_ is Stephanie from Lausanne (CH) & the inspiration for Alias & blogs at http://climbtothestars.org/ (fr-en) & not related to Bugs Bunny & takes on the accent of her surroundings & takes Lush baths & une media blogueuse & sounds as adorable on the phone as she appears on tv & http://flickr.com/photos/bunny & flood-blogging on http://steph.wordpress.com/ at times & taking care of her judo school blog at http://dojo-lau 
- [08:24:54] <bunnywabbit_> ouch 
- [08:24:58] <bunnywabbit_> ooooh sorry about that 
- [08:25:00] <bunnywabbit_> :-( 
- [08:25:18] <bunnywabbit_> KevinMarks: jibot should be able to herald different defs in different channels 
- [08:25:52] <bunnywabbit_> maybe it's time to clear my def 
- [08:26:06] <bunnywabbit_> tantek: I was looking at http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-problem 
- [08:26:13] <bunnywabbit_> and I have a slightly different "comment problem" 
- [08:26:33] <bunnywabbit_> but I'm not sure what to do with it regarding the microformat process/wiki 
- [08:26:45] <tantek> what is the real world problem you are trying to solve? 
- [08:26:55] <bunnywabbit_> well, maybe it's a subproblem 
- [08:27:12] <bunnywabbit_> that we bump in at cocomment 
- [08:27:34] <bunnywabbit_> something like having a "standard" way of marking up a comment so that it can be identified as such? 
- [08:28:11] <bunnywabbit_> I guess the real-world problem would be have a way to identify a comment as a comment, and do stuff with the data it contains 
- [08:28:18] <bunnywabbit_> (i'm not sure if that's real-world enough) 
- [08:28:37] <tantek> it is definitely real world enough 
- [08:28:41] <bunnywabbit_> ok 
- [08:28:46] <tantek> as people obviously publish millions of blog comments 
- [08:28:55] <bunnywabbit_> I've been telling cocomment we should get involved in helping define a comment microformat 
- [08:29:07] <bunnywabbit_> and maybe the best way to do that is for me to start getting my hands dirty 
- [08:29:12] <tantek> there have been some folks doing research on it to move it forward 
- [08:29:13] <bunnywabbit_> but I'm not exactly sure how to go about it 
- [08:29:26] <bunnywabbit_> I saw you and dotben on the contributor list 
- [08:29:58] <bunnywabbit_> (at cocomment they're creating ad hoc parsing rules for nearly all blog platforms, and that honestly isn't a viable approach in the long run) 
- [08:29:59] <tantek> start with http://microformats.org/wiki/process 
- [08:30:06] <tantek> right 
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- [08:30:13] <bunnywabbit_> yeah, ben there, but it confuses me :-( 
- [08:30:37] <tantek> feel free to ask questions about the process, either here or on the microformats-discuss list 
- [08:30:43] <bunnywabbit_> I put my nose in microformats.org some time back about multilingual blogging 
- [08:30:50] <bunnywabbit_> ok, let me go back and check the process 
- [08:31:33] <bunnywabbit_> would it be a good idea to have our folks add to http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-examples ? because they certainly have a dozen more they could put on that page 
- [08:32:39] <bunnywabbit_> we're in the process of collecting real-life examples, from what I gather in the process 
- [08:32:44] <bunnywabbit_> is that right, tantek? 
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- [08:36:43] <KevinMarks> yes, bunny do that 
- [08:36:54] <KevinMarks> that really helps to see common features 
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- [08:39:58] <KevinMarks> the goal shoudl be to see the commonality and help it converge, and if you have a good example set that makes it much easier 
- [08:41:57] <bunnywabbit_> ok 
- [08:47:21] <bunnywabbit_> I see there is something on comment-formats 
- [08:47:29] <bunnywabbit_> should be try and fill that in too? 
- [08:49:21] <KevinMarks> examples are for html ones; formats are for non-html ones 
- [08:49:36] <bunnywabbit_> ok 
- [08:49:37] <bunnywabbit_> er 
- [08:49:40] <bunnywabbit_> opposite 
- [08:49:50] <bunnywabbit_> examples list table structures 
- [08:50:01] <bunnywabbit_> formats give markup examples, as far as I can see 
- [08:50:03] <bunnywabbit_> is that wrong? 
- [08:50:04] <KevinMarks> let me look 
- [08:51:16] <KevinMarks> yes, that is a bit odd 
- [08:53:28] <KevinMarks> tantek? 
- [08:53:50] <KevinMarks> normally I think examples is in the wild HTML, with annotation 
- [08:54:47] <KevinMarks> and formats is pre-existing non-HTML formats 
- [08:55:39] <KevinMarks> ie exampels is markup plus implied schema 
- [08:56:33] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/wiki/review-formats and http://microformats.org/wiki/review-examples are decent ones to look at 
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- [09:15:50] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk 
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- [10:57:13] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/ 
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- [10:57:31] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project. 
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- [13:44:59] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame 
- [13:49:02] <trovster> Hey Brian, is the tidy service required for your script? 
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- [14:07:34] <briansuda> tovster, sorry, i was catching-up on morning news - TIDY is not required, but a non-wellformed page will not be processed by X2V 
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- [14:09:21] <trovster> He's still running it through your server, he was trying to get it working on his own one. 
- [14:09:39] <trovster> He had some problems with getting banned on the Tidy service! 
- [14:10:30] <briansuda> yeah, i emailed back and forth with Simon about it. If his pages are well formed then he doesn't need tidy, i sent him the corrected PHP file without TIDY calls, but then he was having issues with XSLT-TRANSFORM i don't think those functions are compiled into the version of PHP his host is using 
- [14:11:00] <trovster> Aha, cool, least you know the issues! 
- [14:11:39] <briansuda> Is anyone else having problems with the new Technorati Microformats search/ping service? 
- [14:12:18] <briansuda> i submitted a few pages with MF Content and only one has made the search results so far. 
- [14:13:16] <briansuda> Also, does anyone know if they plan to offer RSS feeds on the search results? or use hAtom in the output? 
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- [14:42:38] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) 
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- [15:44:22] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/ 
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- [15:55:30] * bewest scrolls up
- [15:55:32] <bewest> oh wow 
- [15:55:37] <bewest> tantek: that's exactly what I was going to build 
- [15:55:49] <bewest> using my AWSP account here at alexa 
- [16:01:22] <bewest> well, I was going to attempt it 
- [16:01:54] <bewest> actually what would be really great is if google did it automaically in their searches 
- [16:11:23] <tantek> bewest, hopefully we can do even better than that ;) 
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- [16:12:12] * tantek sets mode +o briansuda 
- [16:12:38] <tantek> brian, definitely paste the URLs with microformats that you don't see being indexed and we'll take a look 
- [16:12:49] <bewest> tantek: ah I see... 
- [16:12:57] <bewest> tantek: actually, I was going to make a crawler 
- [16:13:00] <bewest> so that no pinging is involved 
- [16:13:06] <bewest> then you search off the index 
- [16:13:23] <bewest> so there's still room for my work :-) 
- [16:13:23] <bewest> hopefully 
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- [16:15:04] <bewest> I shouldn't talk about stuff before i do it 
- [16:15:30] <briansuda> tantek, http://suda.co.uk/contact/ and htttp://flickr.com/people/suda/ 
- [16:16:51] <briansuda> also, are there plans to have an RSS feed of results? and/or aggregate the microformat data, so if my profile is spread across lots of places they can all be pulled together 
- [16:17:13] <briansuda> also, are there plans to offer ics and vcf downloads of search results? 
- [16:19:42] <trovster> <bewest> I shouldn't talk about stuff before i do it -- that's my problem! 
- [16:26:08] <tantek> briansuda, plans are based on responding to market demands 
- [16:26:19] <tantek> in otherwords, get your feature requests in early and often ;) 
- [16:27:00] <tantek> and htttp://flickr.com/people/suda/ needs one fewer t ;) 
- [16:27:47] <mfbot> [[events]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=6489 * Brian * (+0) moved Upcoming events that have past into Past events 
- [16:27:48] <tantek> I just pinged Pingerati.net with the Flickr URL for example, and it now shows up at the top of http://kitchen.technorati.com/contact/search/Suda 
- [16:27:53] <gsnedders> tantek: after saying I'd get more comments in the mailing list, I sure got a lot :) 
- [16:28:02] <tantek> :) 
- [16:28:51] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
- [16:29:30] <trovster> I submitted www.multipack.co.uk earlier, and it's not appearing 
- [16:29:48] <mfbot> [[events]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=6490 * Brian * (+75) Recent - 
- [16:32:20] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
- [16:36:29] <mfbot> [[events/www2006]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/www2006&diff=0&oldid=6491 * Brian * (+375) Added link to the presentation slides 
- [16:39:04] * pecus (n=pecus@frbpub.cpe.ejby.dk.telia.net) has joined #microformats
- [16:44:51] <mfbot> [[hcard]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=6492 * Tantek * (+216) added Technorati Microformats Search 
- [16:45:26] <tantek> trovster, briansuda - I presume you are both trying to find hCards 
- [16:45:38] <tantek> I've just added Technorati Microformats Search to the list of hCard implementations 
- [16:46:13] <briansuda>  yes, i have pinged suda.co.uk/contact but nothing gets extracted... 
- [16:46:15] <tantek> I encourage you (and anyone else) having trouble with seeing a page with microformats get indexed to add the URL perhaps as a nested list item inside that entry 
- [16:46:47] <tantek> That way we can make sure the URLs don't get lost in the midst of IRC conversation and make sure they get fixed. 
- [16:46:50] <tantek> Thanks! 
- [16:46:50] <briansuda> my first guess is that i have class="vcard foobar another-here" 
- [16:47:05] <tantek> brian, that's not it because I've found other hCards like that 
- [16:47:16] <tantek> it will take a little investigation, i don't have an answer offhand 
- [16:47:19] <briansuda> ok, i'll add it to the list on the wiki 
- [16:49:37] <mfbot> [[hcard]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=6493 * Brian * (+145) Implementations - 
- [16:51:23] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=6494 * Tantek * (+248) added Technorati Microformats Search 
- [16:52:29] <mfbot> [[hreview]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=6495 * Tantek * (+217) added Technorati Microformats Search 
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- [17:12:33] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org> 
- [17:12:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek 
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- [17:49:12] <KevinMarks> hi brian, let me know which URLs and I'll check 
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- [17:50:38] <jibot> PhilipAshlock is in Bellingham WA and can be found online at http://www.philaestheta.com/ 
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- [18:03:14] <briansuda> KevinMarks, i added them to the wiki, but my site suda.co.uk/contact is not getting index 
- [18:03:32] <KevinMarks> OK, will check 
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- [18:08:01] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org> 
- [18:08:26] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek 
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- [19:57:11] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org> 
- [19:57:37] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek 
- [19:58:13] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:58:13] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king 
- [19:58:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan 
- [19:58:44] <kingryan> howdy folks 
- [20:00:16] <gsnedders> hi 
- [20:02:27] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-115-175.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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- [20:09:15] <kingryan> who around here worked on worldcupkickoff.com? 
- [20:18:22] <mfbot> [[implementations]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=6496 * TylerKeen * (+170) Technorati - 
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- [20:35:53] <KevinMarks> hi ryan 
- [20:36:02] <kingryan> hi kevin 
- [20:37:52] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:37:53] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org> 
- [20:38:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek 
- [20:39:37] <gsnedders> hi tantek 
- [20:41:41] <kingryan> hey tantek 
- [20:42:06] <tantek> greetings! 
- [20:42:06] * gsnedders is bored and is in say "hi" to everyone mode.
- [20:43:22] <KevinMarks> bored? 
- [20:43:38] <KevinMarks> I cna send you a nice fat stream of microforamst if you like... 
- [20:44:31] * pecus (n=pecus@frbpub.cpe.ejby.dk.telia.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [20:45:17] <gsnedders> microforamst? 
- [20:45:26] <gsnedders> microformats misspelt? 
- [20:46:12] <gsnedders> I've been working on various programming things for HOURS. 
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- [21:12:39] <mfbot> [[implementations]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=6497 * CharlieWood * (+118) Microformats Implementors And Implementations - 
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- [21:14:35] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]]  http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=6498 * CharlieWood * (+133) Conversion and Import - 
- [21:20:03] <jibot> Hwin is horseygurl, trying to go undercover. 
- [21:31:52] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2417P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
- [21:31:53] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02) 
- [21:33:42] * gsnedders (n=geoffrey@host86-139-126-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
- [21:33:57] <kingryan> hi RobertBachmann 
- [21:35:34] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:35:35] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project. 
- [21:36:00] <pnhChris> i is, i do and i am 
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- [21:46:36] <RobertBachmann> hi kingryan 
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- [21:57:57] <DanC> where's the source of mfbot? http://microformats.org/wiki/mfbot 
- [22:00:20] * briansuda nudges kingryan
- [22:00:43] <kingryan> DanC: it's mostly inthe media-wiki distro 
- [22:00:55] <kingryan> plus a 4-line shell script by me 
- [22:01:22] * kingryan wishes he would have documented how he set it up
- [22:01:28] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
- [22:01:29] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00) 
- [22:01:36] <DanC> how does media-wiki talk to the irc bot? 
- [22:01:47] <kingryan> the bot polls the database 
- [22:01:52] <DanC> ew 
- [22:01:55] <kingryan> yeah 
- [22:02:15] <kingryan> but for low-traffic sites with only one host, it works well-enough 
- [22:02:18] <DanC> sure 
- [22:02:43] * DanC is looking at http://cia.navi.cx/ , which looks pretty cool
- [22:08:25] <kingryan> that homepage makes no sense 
- [22:09:25] <briansuda> KevinMarks, where should i put feature requests for  the Microformat Search? 
- [22:10:02] <KevinMarks> well, you can mail them to the feedback form 
- [22:10:12] <KevinMarks> or just tell me and tantek 
- [22:10:32] <briansuda> will do. 
- [22:10:59] <hober> hResume support would rule 
- [22:11:18] <kingryan> hey KevinMarks how about some <p> tags in your blog? :D 
- [22:11:32] <kingryan> hober, I think we pick it up, but don't have any specific search for it 
- [22:11:33] <kingryan> (yet) 
- [22:11:52] <hober> kingryan: *nod* 
- [22:12:01] <briansuda> i've got a list building of ideas, i'm not sure how much you can implement, but i'll email them all soon 
- [22:12:11] <kingryan> thanks brian 
- [22:12:27] <briansuda> any luck getting the PING to index my contact page? 
- [22:13:01] <hober> it doesn't seem to understand the <object class="include" data="#foo" ... /> trick 
- [22:13:05] <hober> e.g. http://kitchen.technorati.com/contact/search/software+engineer 
- [22:13:18] <hober> the two "contact" results should probably have my fn 
- [22:13:42] <briansuda> i don't think i'm using the object include on my contact page 
- [22:13:52] <hober> It's also somewhat funny and/or embarassing that I'm 3 of the 5 results on that page. :/ 
- [22:14:06] <tantek> just to be clear, we're not parsing hResumes yet 
- [22:14:53] <tantek> nor have we implemented support for the object include pattern either 
- [22:15:05] <KevinMarks> we have dumb parsers 
- [22:15:17] <KevinMarks> but if you want to hook up smart ones we'll ping you :) 
- [22:15:56] * pnhChris greets tantek & KevinMarks 
- [22:16:14] <tantek> hey Chris 
- [22:16:41] * tantek 's PHP microformat property parse is plenty smart thank you very much. :)
- [22:16:45] <tantek> parser even 
- [22:16:45] <hober> :) 
- [22:17:56] * pnhChris wants to review something just to see it show up in the new toys
- [22:18:23] <KevinMarks> you can review pingerati 
- [22:18:46] <KevinMarks> I think pinging ingerati wiht pingerati.net is the most popular daft thing to do so far 
- [22:18:49] * pnhChris gives it an F-
- [22:19:22] <tantek> Chris, ouch! 
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- [22:19:45] <tantek> Kevin, nice link to "Dave" 
- [22:19:53] <tantek> http://kitchen.technorati.com/contact/search/dave+winer 
- [22:20:05] <tantek> (from Kevin's blog: http://epeus.blogspot.com/ ) 
- [22:20:07] * KevinMarks wraps the F- in an <abbr class="value" title="5">
- [22:20:14] <pnhChris> i should rate my textpattern plgin an F- too.. for not including hreview yet 
- [22:20:37] <kingryan> isn't 5 the best? 
- [22:20:41] <kingryan> by default? 
- [22:20:45] <KevinMarks> :D 
- [22:21:43] * briansuda is off to get some food
- [22:21:53] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ()
- [22:21:54] <pnhChris> so i guess the next question to be answered is how to group search results 
- [22:22:29] <hober> at least with contacts, if the various pages are rel="me"'d together, those can be collapsed 
- [22:22:44] <kingryan> yup 
- [22:22:52] <kingryan> and  UID would be helpful here 
- [22:24:48] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
- [22:25:59] * KevinMarks add's <p>'s fro Ryan
- [22:26:15] <kingryan> :D 
- [22:31:27] <KevinMarks> grr, ecto messed up mys silly tag 
- [22:46:55] <KevinMarks> ok, fixed you brian 
- [22:47:14] <KevinMarks> http://kitchen.technorati.com/contact/search/suda 
- [22:47:56] <KevinMarks> anyone else have problems? 
- [22:48:16] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@63-226-145-189.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:48:34] * pnhChris just hacked an hcard into http://www.webstandards.org/about/members/ccasciano/
- [22:48:57] * pnhChris hits ping this bookmarklet
- [22:48:59] <tantek> um, Chris, they were all already supposed to be hCards 
- [22:49:02] <tantek> hmm... 
- [22:49:08] * tantek goes over to #wasp
- [22:50:54] <tantek> note: Flickr profiles, e.g. http://flickr.com/people/tantek are marked up with hCard 
- [22:51:08] <tantek> so if you have Flickr profile, go ping it! 
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- [23:30:55] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame 
- [23:38:48] <KevinMarks> brian, fixed parsing your hcard 
- [23:38:53] <KevinMarks> sorry about that 
- [23:42:23] <briansuda> KevinMarks, not a problem... on a side note, i have used rel=tag on a few pages too that aren't indexed - i don't used a blog template, it is all by hand (eg http://suda.co.uk/publications/www2006/) 
- [23:45:07] <KevinMarks> rel=tag we're only doing in blogs at the moment 
- [23:45:11] <KevinMarks> or hReviews 
- [23:45:14] * bear is now known as bear_dinner
- [23:45:18] <briansuda> understandable. 
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