IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-06-26
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:13:03] <pnhChris>
enjoy my fugly url announcing v1.0 of my textpattern plugin... now with hReview support: http://placenamehere.com/article/222/Releasedpnhmf10MicroformatPluginForTextpattern
- [00:13:10] <pnhChris>
:)
- [00:15:58] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=6916 * ChrisCasciano * (+263) Implementations - textpattern plugin -
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- [03:56:20] <mfbot>
[[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=6917 * ChristopheDucamp * (+6) Discussions Exploratoires -
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- [04:38:38] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=6918 * ChristopheDucamp * (-16) typo
- [04:41:29] <mfbot>
[[hreview-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-fr&diff=0&oldid=6919 * ChristopheDucamp * (+294) Implémentations - sync with hreview (add translation of TP plugin)
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- [05:03:55] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=6920 * ChristopheDucamp * (+837) hcard-examples translation / to be reviewed
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- [05:30:32] <mfbot>
[[hash-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=6921 * Ant * (+12) Proposal -
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- [06:43:10] <mfbot>
[[hcard-profile-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-profile-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+6945) French translation of hcard-profile
- [06:45:46] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=6922 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Optimisation implicite du "nickname" - typo
- [06:47:32] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=6923 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) Plus d'Exemples - typo
- [07:00:04] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+23984) hcard-parsing : structure translated - to be done
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- [07:15:40] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing-fr&diff=0&oldid=6924 * ChristopheDucamp * (+465) nom classe racine -> à relire
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- [07:24:51] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing-fr&diff=0&oldid=6925 * ChristopheDucamp * (+136) trouver des hCards - in progress draft translation to be reviewed
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- [07:45:48] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing-fr&diff=0&oldid=6926 * ChristopheDucamp * (+616) propriétés hCard - in progress
- [07:46:24] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing-fr&diff=0&oldid=6927 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) typo
- [07:52:25] <mfbot>
[[Microformats:Recherche]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Microformats:Recherche * ChristopheDucamp * (+202) Page difficult to understand / appearing via a search with french Preferences / This page could be completed with a future search engine on a french microformats web site ?
- [07:52:46] <mfbot>
[[Microformats:Recherche]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Microformats:Recherche&diff=0&oldid=6928 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) typo
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- [08:54:59] <trovster>
<p class="date published" title="2006-06-22T14:23:19+01:00">Posted on Thursday, June 22nd, 2006</p> -- is this correct? Or does the published need only to go around the date?
- [09:33:11] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1226 I get 'Could not parse sourcetree.' from http://www.lukearno.com/projects/hatom2atom/
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- [12:58:05] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing-fr&diff=0&oldid=6929 * ChristopheDucamp * (+89) gestion espace blanc -
- [13:03:16] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing-fr&diff=0&oldid=6930 * ChristopheDucamp * (+98) sous-propriétés hCard -
- [13:08:43] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing-fr&diff=0&oldid=6931 * ChristopheDucamp * (+62) paramètres proprités hCard -
- [13:09:09] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing-fr&diff=0&oldid=6932 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) paramètres propriétés hCard - typo
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- [13:17:19] <xtof>
bonjour currently trying to understand : http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples#2.4.2_VCARD
- [13:19:09] <xtof>
is there any french people with good expertise to localize any french address accordin to "la poste"'s nomenclature ?
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- [13:22:51] <xtof>
let's say I don't feel a ease with this defintion type ADR http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-fr#3.2.1_D.C3.A9finition_Type_ADR
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- [15:00:03] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats-transcript]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats-transcript&diff=0&oldid=6933 * Tantek * (+162) added headings, intro, backlink
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- [15:05:34] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats-transcript]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats-transcript&diff=0&oldid=6934 * Tantek * (+101)
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- [15:58:59] <trovster>
Hello?
- [16:01:36] <evanpro>
lo lo lo lo lo
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- [16:03:16] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1226 I get 'Could not parse sourcetree.' from http://www.lukearno.com/projects/hatom2atom/
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- [16:38:35] <RobertBachmann>
trovster: http://paste.css-standards.org/1227
- [16:39:28] <trovster>
You just added #
- [16:39:28] <trovster>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
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- [16:41:02] <RobertBachmann>
yes. XML documents must have one root element, thus the DIV.
- [16:41:48] <RobertBachmann>
the xmlns is here because hAtom2Atom.xsl only works with XHTML documents. (You can use ``tidy -asxml`` for plain old HTML)
- [16:42:50] <trovster>
Should I add xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" to the html ?
- [16:43:51] <RobertBachmann>
yes
- [16:45:17] <RobertBachmann>
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">...</html>
- [16:45:23] <trovster>
Well, you see, I already had it (obviously that wasn't my FULL code!) -> http://paste.css-standards.org/1228
- [16:47:28] <trovster>
Also, all the other tools/links for hentry, on the wiki, are down/missing/gone
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- [16:52:46] <RobertBachmann>
which links?
- [16:57:30] <trovster>
The oneson the wiki!
- [17:00:26] <RobertBachmann>
which page? <http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom>?
- [17:03:16] <trovster>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Implementations those
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- [17:13:21] <RobertBachmann>
ah http://www.trinityanne.com/... seems to be down
- [17:19:40] <trovster>
Any ideas of the translation?
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- [17:26:58] <RobertBachmann>
trovster: <p class="date published" title="2006-06-22T09:23:19-04:00">Posted on Thursday, June 22nd, 2006</p> must be replaced with
- [17:26:58] <RobertBachmann>
<p class="date">Posted on <abbr class="published" title="2006-06-22T09:23:19-04:00">Thursday, June 22nd, 2006</abbr></p>
- [17:26:58] <RobertBachmann>
The title attribute will only be used if the element with class="published" is an <ABBR>
- [17:27:50] <trovster>
[09:54:59] <trovster> <p class="date published" title="2006-06-22T14:23:19+01:00">Posted on Thursday, June 22nd, 2006</p> -- is this correct? Or does the published need only to go around the date? -- was my first question
- [17:32:19] <trovster>
OK then, RobertBachmann, http://paste.css-standards.org/1229
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- [17:44:54] <RobertBachmann>
trovster: 1229 looks good
- [17:45:11] <RobertBachmann>
ah he's not here anymore
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- [19:04:04] <dglazkov>
off topic question
- [19:04:18] <dglazkov>
is there a flickr for mp3s?
- [19:08:18] <bewest>
mp3.com used to be kind of like that
- [19:08:38] <kingryan>
there may not be a "flickr of" mp3's
- [19:08:46] <kingryan>
but there is an "iPod of" mp3's
- [19:09:15] <dglazkov>
ok, I have a bunch of music of my old bands that I want to upload somewhere
- [19:09:21] <dglazkov>
where?
- [19:09:49] <bewest>
http://mp3.com used to be a community based mp3 sharing place....
- [19:09:54] <bewest>
upload mp3's of your band or whatever
- [19:09:55] <bewest>
and share
- [19:10:16] <kingryan>
dglazkov: the iPod
- [19:10:17] <bewest>
it also had free mp3's of independent artists and whatnot
- [19:11:07] <mfbot>
[[hcard-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-faq&diff=0&oldid=6935 * DrewMcLellan * (+441) Q&A -
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- [19:22:44] * dglazkov is checking out mp3
- [19:23:08] <dglazkov>
kingryan: the iPod? How do I get myself on iTunes? :)
- [19:23:21] <kingryan>
get signed to a label
- [19:23:27] <kingryan>
or start a podcast
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- [19:28:02] <bewest>
kingryan: I brought up that graphing bug with a guy here
- [19:28:41] <dglazkov>
oh.. thanks guys
- [19:32:24] <dglazkov>
what about studio.odeo.com
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- [19:53:39] <larryhalff>
dglazkov: Check out http://www.cdbaby.net/. You can get an iTunes distribution deal through them without having to sign to a traditional label.
- [19:54:32] <dglazkov>
thanks, larryhalff
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- [20:39:04] <kingryan>
hey bewest
- [20:39:07] <kingryan>
thanks
- [20:39:09] <bewest>
sure
- [20:39:12] <kingryan>
he have anything to say?
- [20:39:24] <bewest>
there's a lively discussion in #web on the value of extending semantics using the class attribute
- [20:39:28] <bewest>
most people are very against it
- [20:39:31] <bewest>
I could use some help :-)
- [20:39:47] <kingryan>
I don't know if we can take on the whole web
- [20:40:26] <cgriego>
that's the whole purpose of the class attribute... free-form semantics
- [20:40:35] <bewest>
it's just a chatroom :-)
- [20:40:46] <bewest>
#web not "web"
- [20:40:57] <cgriego>
are they arguing that it's only for css hooks?
- [20:41:04] <bewest>
yes
- [20:41:22] <bewest>
and that it's a bad idea to shift the semantics away from elements to attributes
- [20:41:37] <kingryan>
tell them that shift has already happened
- [20:41:47] <kingryan>
we're just taking it to the logical extreme
- [20:42:19] <bewest>
I argued there's no shift though
- [20:42:29] <bewest>
since we haven't changed the semantics of elements, only extended them
- [20:43:19] <qid>
you could point out to them that according to the spec, class is for more than just CSS hooks
- [20:44:28] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("bye")
- [20:44:55] <qid>
and if they're going to argue for a position not supported by the W3C spec, then it's impossible to them to claim that they're "right", only that we have a difference of opinion
- [20:46:03] <_fil_>
point them to http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/global.html#h-7.5.2
- [20:46:15] <_fil_>
The class attribute has several roles in HTML:
- [20:46:15] <_fil_>
As a style sheet selector (when an author wishes to assign style information to a set of elements).
- [20:46:18] <_fil_>
For general purpose processing by user agents.
- [20:47:25] <bewest>
they just argue that genearl purpose excludes semantic purpose
- [20:47:28] <bewest>
by definition
- [20:47:37] <_fil_>
ok
- [20:47:41] <bewest>
they see general in opposite to semantic
- [20:47:43] <kingryan>
"general purpose" doesn't include everything?
- [20:47:52] <_fil_>
then just /window close
- [20:48:10] <qid>
I believe they just said something roughly equating to "microformats are a hack job"
- [20:48:13] <qid>
:-\
- [20:48:30] <_fil_>
well... it's a free country
- [20:48:41] <_fil_>
Sweden, I mean :)
- [20:49:37] <dglazkov>
yeah. I couldn't bear that
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- [20:52:51] <tantek>
qid, and that's supposed to be an insult? ;)
- [20:53:07] <qid>
heh
- [20:54:00] <bewest>
meh they are ignoring me now
- [20:54:11] <tantek>
bewest, perhaps return the favor?
- [20:54:25] <bewest>
why is it "class" is ok to add semantics in every domain except html?
- [20:56:10] <tantek>
you may also drop this in that channel and see what happens: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-October/001175.html
- [20:56:31] <tantek>
bewest, I don't understand the question
- [20:56:39] <tantek>
(nice to meet you at BarCampSF BTW!)
- [20:56:53] <bewest>
yeah :-)
- [20:57:13] <bewest>
I just asked: name another domain in which an application of a value of class does not extend semantic information?
- [20:58:04] <tantek>
good one.
- [20:58:14] <bewest>
they conveniently ignore it hough
- [20:59:25] * tantek has some coding to do right now, otherwise he might enjoy a few minutes of distraction in an otherwise hostile irc channel.
- [20:59:54] <tantek>
does #web have public logs?
- [21:00:03] <bewest>
dunno
- [21:00:10] <bewest>
I think I"m logging though
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- [21:00:47] <tantek>
good. might be worth keeping a catalog of their arguments for later dissection / refutation on the wiki.
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- [21:06:59] <gsnedders>
suddenly it all stops…
- [21:07:17] <bewest>
maybe cause my points are bullet proof
- [21:07:36] <bewest>
meh
- [21:07:38] <bewest>
they are silly
- [21:07:48] <gsnedders>
very.
- [21:07:51] <tantek>
silliness is one response to frustration
- [21:08:08] <gsnedders>
I really should be coding, not wasting my time
- [21:08:11] <bewest>
they attack people who say they want to use xhtml
- [21:08:12] * bewest too
- [21:08:17] <tantek>
wow
- [21:08:20] * natea|sf (n=natea@adsl-71-131-190-24.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) Quit ()
- [21:09:04] <bewest>
very fundamentalist
- [21:09:09] <gsnedders>
my reply to whether we should use something no browser supports was simple: "if you went back to the beginning of the web, why should you use HTML? What supports it? Almost nothing. Did people use it? Yes."
- [21:09:48] <gsnedders>
and I got smacked down for saying that.
- [21:10:05] <bewest>
qid: you almost got banned lol
- [21:10:09] <bewest>
I might get banned
- [21:10:12] <qid>
haha
- [21:10:17] <bewest>
name another domain in which an application of a value of class does not extend semantic information?
- [21:10:33] <bewest>
try this google seach: "* is a class of *" and see what happens :-)
- [21:10:34] <gsnedders>
huh?
- [21:10:38] <bewest>
just logging :-)
- [21:10:57] <bewest>
mcc: bewest: So your argument is currently that since class means a certain thing elsewhere, it must also mean that same thing in HTML.
- [21:10:59] <qid>
as I said, it became apparent that we were in a religious argument, not a logical debate
- [21:11:02] <qid>
so I left
- [21:11:05] <bewest>
mcc: I'm pretty sure there's a name for that falacy.
- [21:11:14] <bewest>
FAE?
- [21:11:36] <bewest>
only it's the model we commonly use for naming and defining all kinds of things
- [21:11:43] <qid>
religious arguments never go anywhere, they just make everyone angrier
- [21:11:43] <bewest>
and so is no fallacy in this case
- [21:11:58] <bewest>
se: bewest: but it /isn't/, in this case. Please mention one SGML-based language which uses this method?
- [21:12:20] <kingryan>
bewest: tell them "HTML"
- [21:12:35] * gsnedders gets back to coding, after that fun
- [21:12:35] <bewest>
I'm logging
- [21:12:37] <bewest>
and next:
- [21:12:48] <bewest>
html!?
- [21:12:54] <bewest>
<title>....
- [21:13:01] <bewest>
se: bewest: ... which uses microformats?
- [21:13:12] <bewest>
on: "no, it's a namespace!"
- [21:13:21] <bewest>
se: bewest: ... HTML uses microformats?
- [21:13:22] <mfbot>
[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=6936 * RyanKing * (+0) past events are no longer "upcoming"
- [21:13:31] <bewest>
no... I'm talking about what the class attribute means.. since that is seems to be our prinicple disagreement
- [21:13:41] <bewest>
mcc: Well, that's an easy disagreement to settle. What's the spec say? :P
- [21:13:49] <bewest>
se: bewest: no, it isn't. The /principal/ disagreement is that microformats is breaking with a principle that has been with us since 1968 or thereabouts - WHY? That's all I ask.
- [21:13:59] <bewest>
gsnedders: mattmcc: "For general purpose processing by user agents (e.g. for identifying fields when extracting data from HTML pages into a database, translating HTML documents into other formats, etc.)."
- [21:14:06] <bewest>
we are discussing what the general useage of an attribute of class might mean... since in most domains the type of class something is extends its semantic value, I'm arguing the same applies here
- [21:14:23] <bewest>
mcc: There's that fallacy again.
- [21:14:33] <bewest>
we used the same "fallacy" to name namespaces
- [21:14:59] <bewest>
ose: bewest: actually ... we're not.
- [21:15:10] <bewest>
that was the end
- [21:16:44] <bewest>
maybe a new t-shirt could say: Microformats: in a class of its own.
- [21:16:45] <gsnedders>
you missed somethings out
- [21:16:46] <tantek>
yeah, you cornered them into confronting a belief/assumption, and that tends to be the response
- [21:17:07] <bewest>
gsnedders: yes, I did I'm biased for my own arguments
- [21:17:15] <gsnedders>
:)
- [21:17:27] <bewest>
I apologized a bit
- [21:17:47] <bewest>
I mean I apologize for being biased gsnedders
- [21:17:54] <gsnedders>
:)
- [21:18:25] <gsnedders>
you got most of the important parts, though
- [21:18:47] <bewest>
that was my intention I left out some of my own statements and some of theirs as well
- [21:18:56] <bewest>
I hope I got the principle issuesssssss
- [21:19:02] <gsnedders>
I added just before Windrose's last statement: "so the question is are we extending a language, or are we adding data for processing by user agents?"
- [21:19:07] <gsnedders>
that went unanswered.
- [21:19:10] <bewest>
ye
- [21:19:11] <bewest>
yes
- [21:19:13] <gsnedders>
bewest: yeah, you did.
- [21:20:33] <gsnedders>
most of what you missed out was replying to other related questions, like pointing out that Tasman supports application/xhtml+xml to "work is being done in teh IE camp to support xhtml+xml", then having to explain what Tasman is.
- [21:20:41] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
- [21:22:05] <gsnedders>
knowing what the rendering engines are called seems a rather basic thing to know.
- [21:24:14] <bewest>
meh. they are smart folks but very very rigidly fundamentalist
- [21:24:41] <bewest>
the funny thing is they complain just as bitterly about TBL's Semantic Web that /does/ use namespaces
- [21:27:25] <qid>
maybe they're just anti-semantic
- [21:27:38] <qid>
>_>
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- [21:33:49] <tantek>
maybe they're just anti
- [21:37:37] <kingryan>
"anti-semantic"- that sounds very evocative
- [21:39:47] * gsnedders yawns good night… ME isn't a nice disease to have :\
- [21:40:16] <tantek>
indeed
- [21:40:54] <tantek>
one wonders how widespread this kind of antisemanticism is.
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- [21:41:31] * gsnedders tries to pronounce antisemanticism…
- [21:41:40] * gsnedders fails.
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- [21:42:41] <kingryan>
18k hits: http://www.google.com/search?q=anti-semantic
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- [22:48:50] <jibot>
Remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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- [23:22:47] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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