IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-05
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:46:09] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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- [00:56:40] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [01:45:35] <mfbot>
[[media-formats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/media-formats * DeanEro * (+2798) a first pass at a new, simple listing of media formats which will hopefully lead to simple description of common metadata which will hopefully be useful to restart media-info-brainstorming
- [01:48:11] <mfbot>
[[media-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-formats&diff=0&oldid=7147 * DeanEro * (-5) Current Media Info Formats -
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- [02:00:15] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [02:57:47] <deanero>
happy independence day to those us'ers in the room
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- [03:36:11] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [04:44:46] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [05:11:09] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [08:01:54] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [08:32:04] <jibot>
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
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gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [13:07:49] <jibot>
amette is http://alexander-mette.de and a TikiWiki developer
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- [13:24:38] <jibot>
amette is http://alexander-mette.de and a TikiWiki developer
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- [14:22:58] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [15:03:35] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
- [15:43:49] * drewinthehead wonders if the microformats.org mailman needs a kick
- [15:54:27] <trovster>
http://www.cssbeauty.com/archives/2006/July/microformats_cheat_sheet/ ace
- [15:54:29] * gsnedders kicks him anyway
- [15:59:25] <drewinthehead>
trovster: yeah, that's really handy. I use it all the time.
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- [16:01:01] <drewinthehead>
brian's always keen to get feedback if anything is unclear on the cheatsheet or if you spot any typos
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- [16:44:33] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [16:46:01] <mfbot>
[[xoxo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo&diff=0&oldid=7148 * Josh * (-87) Implementations -
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- [17:30:47] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [17:34:29] <mfbot>
[[XFN]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/XFN * Chris Messina * (+843)
- [17:34:40] <mfbot>
[[XFN]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=XFN&diff=0&oldid=7149 * Chris Messina * (+1) Specification -
- [17:36:21] <mfbot>
[[XFN-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/XFN-brainstorming * Chris Messina * (+356)
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- [18:18:05] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [18:44:33] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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- [18:56:09] <mfbot>
[[XFN-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=XFN-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+356) XFN-brainstorming moved to xfn-brainstorming
- [18:56:45] <mfbot>
[[XFN]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=XFN&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+844) XFN moved to xfn
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- [19:03:10] <jibot>
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
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- [19:16:01] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [21:01:41] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [21:05:18] * DanC starts to tune in for office hours
- [21:06:05] <bewest>
DanC: what hours are not office hours?
- [21:06:16] <bewest>
do you have teaching hours or something?
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- [21:07:25] <DanC>
office hours in the sense of http://microformats.org/wiki/irc
- [21:07:44] <DanC>
esp http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/04/19/office-hours/
- [21:12:28] <tantek_>
argh.
- [21:12:33] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
- [21:12:33] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [21:13:08] * tantek just realized that hCard was truncated by "Evan" unintentionally in his edit of 14 June 2006.
- [21:13:49] <tantek>
If people see large amounts of content (large negative numbers from mfbog) removed from wiki pages, please speak up about it - perhaps even on the list.
- [21:15:43] <tantek>
I need some help here folks
- [21:16:22] <tantek>
DanC, if you're around for office hours, could you take a look at the revision histories of the pages that Evan edited to see if he accidentally corrupted any more? http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Contributions&target=Evan
- [21:16:38] <kingryan>
DanC: I'm here now - you have anything specific for office hours?
- [21:17:31] <DanC>
well, I'm working on Yet Another Flight Itinerary, kingryan. dunno if I'll publish an hcalendar version
- [21:18:03] <tantek>
kingryan, can you help with the pages that Evan edited to see if he accidentally corrupted any more? http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Contributions&target=Evan
- [21:18:11] <kingryan>
yes
- [21:18:17] <DanC>
I managed to get a to-do list together a week or two ago. http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#Dan_Connolly
- [21:18:20] * tantek is fixing hCard now
- [21:19:24] * DanC isn't sure what sort of corruption we're talking about
- [21:19:35] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7150 * Tantek * (+4232) restored loss of content from Evan edit of 14 June 2006.
- [21:19:49] <kingryan>
DanC: some browsers have a 32k limit on textareas
- [21:20:04] <kingryan>
so anyone with such a browser who edits a larger page will silently truncate the page
- [21:20:10] <kingryan>
don't worry, I'll clean it up
- [21:20:16] <DanC>
oh my... http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=prev&oldid=6631
- [21:20:46] <tantek>
DanC, to be specific, this edit of Evan on 14 June 2006: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=6631&oldid=6591
- [21:20:56] <tantek>
notice all the red text on yellow background at the bottom
- [21:21:00] <kingryan>
it appears to be all good now
- [21:21:11] <tantek>
hCard is fixed yes
- [21:21:18] <tantek>
how about the other pages he touched?
- [21:21:29] <DanC>
this looks bad too: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag&diff=prev&oldid=6597
- [21:21:54] <kingryan>
yeah, but its already been rolled back
- [21:22:05] <DanC>
and this one: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo&diff=prev&oldid=6598
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- [21:22:20] <jibot>
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
- [21:23:06] <DanC>
I reviewed all the 14 June "removed draft..." diffs from Evan; those are the only ones that look bad. I'll leave the clean-up to you 2
- [21:26:40] * briansuda is around, but busy with other issues
- [21:27:09] <briansuda>
The other day i committed some files to HG, be sure to pull/update
- [21:30:17] <tantek>
briansuda, did you fix the <abbr class="type" title="..."> handling?
- [21:30:46] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=7151 * Tantek * (+564) need to modularize some specs to avoid wiki edit corruption
- [21:32:59] <briansuda>
yes, that should be working in the newest version, i also added a test case for it
- [21:35:07] <mfbot>
[[include-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=7152 * Tantek * (+505) added discussions section with link to feedback page
- [21:35:38] <bewest>
ooOOoo
- [21:35:50] * bewest just though of a neat app to consume xoxo and other list structures
- [21:37:35] <bewest>
hmm assuming the world uses good markup/microformats
- [21:37:41] <bewest>
if you are looking for a doctor...
- [21:37:46] <bewest>
you are probably comparing several sets of lists
- [21:37:58] <bewest>
and it'd be useful to get the intersection of those lists
- [21:38:04] <tantek>
yes!
- [21:38:09] <bewest>
but they are on different web pages
- [21:38:09] <tantek>
list handling for comparison shopping
- [21:38:13] <bewest>
yeah
- [21:38:14] <bewest>
all kinds of things
- [21:38:18] <tantek>
that would rock
- [21:38:39] <bewest>
in the instance of the doctor...
- [21:38:54] <DanC>
so far the various microformats are light on stuff to make duplicate detection reliable. There's nothing like foaf:mbox in hCard, for example.
- [21:39:00] <bewest>
you might be looking at at least 2 or three different lists... your insurance provider's list, a specific facility's list
- [21:39:12] <bewest>
and perhaps a list provided by a friend or something
- [21:39:19] <bewest>
or yahoo or something
- [21:39:27] <bewest>
and it's really important to get the intersection
- [21:39:34] <DanC>
hmm... my hack to convert .vcf to hcard seems to have gotten the big yawn.
- [21:39:53] <bewest>
I just found my insurance provider provides downloadable vcards
- [21:40:05] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-74-227.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [21:40:10] <bewest>
but they don't have nice url's
- [21:40:12] <bewest>
:-(
- [21:40:53] <bewest>
onclick="sendtovcard('form_contact233525134', 'path/to/url.asp')
- [21:41:16] <bewest>
such a shame
- [21:41:25] <bewest>
but it'd come in handy for lists of reviews or hcards or whatever
- [21:43:32] <bewest>
DanC: I think it's a good idea
- [21:43:45] <tantek>
DanC, did you add it to the implementations page and implementations section on the hCard page (now that I've fixed it ;) ?
- [21:43:52] <bewest>
DanC: search engines should use it to display results of indexed vcards
- [21:44:06] <bewest>
I might be able to convince someone here to do that
- [21:44:38] * DanC tries to figure out/remember where "here" is
- [21:44:52] <tantek>
IMHO the key to a good .vcf -> hCard converter is getting a web designer with a good visual eye to author the resultant hCard+CSS to make the result as beautiful visually as it is beautiful in markup.
- [21:45:01] <DanC>
add it in 2 (more) places? hmm.
- [21:45:20] <DanC>
yes, I hope to recruit a designer
- [21:45:45] <kingryan>
DanC: bewest->here == :alexa
- [21:46:02] <bewest>
oh, sorry :-)
- [21:47:51] <DanC>
hmm... I suppose that http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/contacts.kid isn't really what a designer is likely to work from; example output is prolly better
- [21:48:07] <DanC>
I could attach some in a follow-up to my uf-dev msg
- [21:50:30] <bewest>
is that psp?
- [21:52:34] <tantek>
what we need are beautiful hCards
- [21:53:47] <bewest>
I thought the hcard-o-matic output was pretty nice
- [21:54:19] <tantek>
thanks bewest!
- [21:54:32] <tantek>
I think it is pretty coarse and could definitely use some nice CSS.
- [21:55:01] <tantek>
DanC, does your vcf->hCard converter create the same markup as the hCard creator?
- [21:55:06] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [21:55:08] <tantek>
Or did you make up your own hCard markup?
- [21:55:29] <DanC>
I made up my own.
- [21:55:35] * amette (n=amette@pD9E6AC52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit ("keep havin' fun")
- [21:55:58] <DanC>
can the hCard creator create all the hcards in the test suite? I tested my code against the test suite
- [21:56:44] <tantek>
huh? why would you want to create all the hCards in the test suite? many of them are edge/error cases.
- [21:56:51] <tantek>
they are designed as tests for consumption
- [21:56:57] <tantek>
not as ideal models of hCards to produce
- [21:57:14] * amette (n=amette@pD9E6AC52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
- [21:57:29] * tantek pokes DanC for making up his own markup instead of re-using. ;p
- [21:57:36] <DanC>
what I tested was taking each .ics file in the test suite, making hcard out of it with my code, then converting back with x2v, and seeing if the results match what I started with
- [21:58:28] <tantek>
testing the round trip is good
- [21:58:44] <tantek>
but there is no need to match the intermediate hCard with the hCards in the test suite
- [21:58:46] <DanC>
hmm... http://microformats.org/code/hcard/creator seems to have more and less than the test suite... doesn't have organization-unit, but does have aim screenname
- [21:58:47] <tantek>
or rather
- [21:59:00] <tantek>
it is certainly suboptimal from a user display point of view
- [21:59:09] <DanC>
right; I didn't use the .html in the test suite
- [21:59:27] <tantek>
which is important if you're looking to get folks to use it and not just "yawn" as you say. but you knew that. :)
- [21:59:56] <tantek>
DanC, more people publish their AIM contact info than differentiate org-unit from org-name.
- [22:00:02] <tantek>
on the Web at least.
- [22:00:14] <DanC>
I don't doubt it.
- [22:00:16] <tantek>
hCard creator has been evolving based on user requests of what they publish and want to publish.
- [22:00:39] <tantek>
and the pattern of markup used in hCard creator is easy enough to extend to the other fields and properties which it doesn't currently support
- [22:01:56] <tantek>
and re: duplicate detection, I think you are not looking hard enough.
- [22:02:42] <tantek>
and nevermind that email addresses are also imperfect for duplicate detection, as they may indicate false duplicates over time (two things that should be different having the same email address at different points in time, e.g. witness aol.com email address re-use etc.)
- [22:04:13] <DanC>
if two different things have foaf:mbox <mailto:foo@aol.com>, then you've got bad input data. But foaf:mbox is still mighty useful, and there's no analog in vcard
- [22:04:41] <DanC>
worse yet url. is it an url of a page about me, or about my company?
- [22:04:53] <kingryan>
what about UID, DanC?
- [22:04:54] <bewest>
dunno... I've been wondering that a lot
- [22:05:31] <DanC>
UID gives enough info; the challenge is to get people to use them.
- [22:05:38] <kingryan>
yeah
- [22:05:46] <pnhChris>
i dunno.. the person associated with press@company.com or webmaster.com could chagne over time.. or hundres of people could use support@company.com
- [22:05:51] <kingryan>
but at least the technological solution is in place, its a social problem now
- [22:06:05] <pnhChris>
(sorry.. coming in late on this one.. i'll read the rest of scrollback in a minute
- [22:07:25] <DanC>
well, quite; the thing with foaf:mbox <webmaster@foo.com> is not likely a person, exacly. It's a role filled by various people at various times.
- [22:07:52] <tantek>
DanC, you said: if two different things have foaf:mbox <mailto:foo@aol.com>, then you've got bad input data
- [22:07:53] <DanC>
so you wouldn't say the same thing has foaf:mbox <webmaster@foo.com> and <johnny@foo.com>
- [22:07:55] <tantek>
nope
- [22:07:58] <tantek>
you've got a bad assumption
- [22:08:14] <tantek>
person A might have dan@aol.com in 1995
- [22:08:20] <tantek>
and then abandon their account
- [22:08:26] <tantek>
and person B might get dan@aol.com in 2005
- [22:08:37] <tantek>
and you have NO WAY to tell that they are two people
- [22:08:48] <tantek>
that's not bad input data
- [22:08:55] <tantek>
that's the reality of email addresses and services
- [22:09:00] <DanC>
the design of foaf:mbox does not assume no email address ever gets reused.
- [22:09:13] <tantek>
and if your system assumes otherwise, then your system has a bad assumption
- [22:10:26] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.static.twtelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
- [22:10:56] <tantek>
the reality of duplicate detection is that it is hard
- [22:11:01] <tantek>
and often very much domain specific
- [22:11:05] <bewest>
"kid" looks great
- [22:11:14] <tantek>
UID can help - if people use it
- [22:11:33] <tantek>
ID attribute can also help - if people use it
- [22:11:37] <tantek>
dglazkov's recent heuristics on the list will also help
- [22:11:39] <bewest>
yeah, I thought microformats was about creating technical solutions where the social solution already exists...
- [22:12:06] <bewest>
since it's much easier to change technology
- [22:12:23] <bewest>
id attribute would be good since it's widely used
- [22:12:28] <bewest>
what's this UID thing?
- [22:12:35] <kingryan>
well, we don't always have to create the technical solution
- [22:12:50] <kingryan>
sometimes we just have to introduce and advocate an existing technical solution
- [22:12:57] <bewest>
kingryan: meh... semantics.. converge on it
- [22:12:58] <kingryan>
UID = 'unique identifier'
- [22:12:59] * amette (n=amette@pD9E6AC52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [22:14:10] <tantek>
UID is one of the properties in both hCard and hCalendar, from vCard and iCalendar
- [22:15:59] * DanC makes a test case out of hcard creator stuff... compares to output from vcardin.py ...
- [22:16:17] * amette (n=amette@pD9E6AC52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
- [22:16:22] <DanC>
hmm... I made each contact an <li> in a <ul>.
- [22:16:32] <tantek>
cool!
- [22:16:47] <briansuda>
UID was also proposed to be one of the more elemental microformats that could then be used in just about anything. It was attempting to try to coordinate the usage of the URL as UID so we could "double up" and not have people try to enter two seperate properties
- [22:17:35] <DanC>
my code isn't smart enough to do implicit N optimization. hmm.
- [22:18:12] <DanC>
and my code puts the tel and email stuff in <ul>s, even when there's only 1. hm.
- [22:18:27] <bewest>
briansuda: yeah, I'm reading it now
- [22:18:29] <DanC>
hcard creator doesn't grok more than one phone number
- [22:19:08] <tantek>
is that the right use of grok? it just doesn't have more than one phone number field
- [22:19:18] <tantek>
you could add a fax# field if you wanted etc.
- [22:19:33] <DanC>
my use of 'grok' was a stretch, at best
- [22:19:51] <bewest>
hehe.. UID's mostly come in the form as a url... but if you reuse the id attribute, almost no one uses urls as the value for those attributes
- [22:20:15] <bewest>
I don't think I've ever seen anyone put a url in an id attribute
- [22:20:31] <bewest>
are the characters even legal?
- [22:20:33] * bewest checks
- [22:21:11] <kingryan>
bewest: the idea with using @id is to join it with the url where the hcard/hcalendar item was found
- [22:22:07] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ("quitin' time")
- [22:22:26] <DanC>
yeah... pgurl#id
- [22:23:17] * DanC used to write duplicate detection code for american cities business journals in high school... in cobol. shudderl.
- [22:23:26] <bewest>
ok
- [22:24:09] <bewest>
/note/ id="http://www.mysite.com/"
- [22:24:15] <bewest>
I mean not
- [22:24:28] <bewest>
since '/' doesn't seem to be allowed
- [22:31:07] * amette (n=amette@pD9E6AC52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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- [23:05:42] * amette (n=amette@pD9E6AC52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit ("keep havin' fun")
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- [23:26:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [23:26:33] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
- [23:33:29] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@70-59-79-117.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ()
- [23:36:59] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) Quit ()
- [23:45:46] * amette (n=amette@pD9E6AC52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
- [23:45:47] <jibot>
amette is http://alexander-mette.de and a TikiWiki developer
- [23:49:59] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC887799.ipt.aol.com) Quit ()
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