IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-11-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  15. [00:58:45] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  20. [01:22:35] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  23. [02:05:16] <mfbot> [[history-of-the-web]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/history-of-the-web * Tantek * (+216) moved from [[history-of-microformats]]
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  25. [02:06:38] <mfbot> [[history-of-the-web]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-of-the-web&diff=0&oldid=9929 * Tantek * (+72)
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  40. [03:01:01] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  48. [04:01:06] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  53. [05:10:26] <KevinMarks> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinmarks/285384771/
  54. [05:22:40] <pnhChris> nice
  55. [05:22:53] <tantek> very nice
  56. [05:23:45] <pnhChris> must be a new month... the mailman reminders have started rolling in ;)
  57. [05:27:05] <KevinMarks> I'd blog it but flickr and blogger aren't talking
  58. [05:45:37] * Ashley`_ is now known as Ashley`
  59. [05:50:09] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=9939 * Chris Messina * (+163) added last.fm
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  62. [05:55:46] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  63. [05:57:08] <KevinMarks> it's NYT Mike
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  66. [06:20:02] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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  79. [07:47:41] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  84. [08:19:40] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  89. [08:37:50] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  90. [09:02:50] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  91. [09:02:50] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
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  95. [09:20:03] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  99. [10:15:53] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  101. [10:32:53] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  102. [10:40:13] <drewinthehead> greetings people of the internets
  103. [10:43:20] <trovster> How'd you get in to my internet... the security guards must be asleep again!
  104. [10:43:38] <kapowaz> I thought I'd downloaded my internet safely to the desktop!
  105. [10:43:51] <kapowaz> what you do!
  106. [10:44:00] <trovster> kapowaz: You shouldn't joke about that...
  107. [10:44:29] <trovster> There is a site doing that (based on topics)
  108. [10:45:22] <drewinthehead> i have cunning ways and means
  109. [10:47:42] <KevinMarks> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinmarks/285384771/ - microformat pumpkin
  110. [10:48:15] <KevinMarks> I trust you UK chaps can come up with a microformat Guy Fawkes
  111. [10:48:31] <KevinMarks> or logo picked out in fireworks
  112. [10:56:52] <kapowaz> oh god.
  113. [10:57:17] <kapowaz> hmm, a microformats guy fawkes.
  114. [10:57:37] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  115. [10:57:37] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  116. [10:57:55] <kapowaz> well I have just made a PSD version of the logo, and I was intending to start mucking around with it.
  117. [11:10:45] <julianstahnke> hello, I have a question: in hCards, can I do this? <a href="COUNTRY" class="adr country-name"> COUNTRY</a> ?
  118. [11:10:58] * charlie_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  119. [11:11:45] <julianstahnke> it works in the tails Firefox extension but I'm not sure if I can put adr and country-name on the same element or if they need to be nested
  120. [11:12:23] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has left #microformats
  121. [11:16:16] <trovster> 'Note that all the properties in adr are singular properties, and thus the first descendant element with that class should take effect' ... first descendant, so it seems like it's incorrect. re: http://microformats.org/wiki/adr#Format
  122. [11:21:27] <julianstahnke> okay, cheers
  123. [11:35:39] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  124. [11:35:39] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  125. [11:40:16] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) has joined #microformats
  126. [11:40:17] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  127. [11:40:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
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  129. [12:01:39] <jibot> Cloud is http://www.johnbreslin.com/
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  133. [12:19:46] <drewinthehead> last.fm could use some microformats love
  134. [12:20:11] <briansuda> they have hCal
  135. [12:24:41] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
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  137. [12:27:50] <boneill> and events stuff iirc
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  140. [12:32:04] <drewinthehead> no hcards or xfn, as far as i've spotted :(
  141. [12:32:33] <briansuda> no, not yet...
  142. [12:38:07] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  143. [12:38:07] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  144. [12:38:52] * danja (n=danja@host184-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  145. [12:41:00] <drewinthehead> ah, they're only 2 miles up the road ... i could go badger them!
  146. [12:41:04] <drewinthehead> ;)
  147. [12:41:25] <briansuda> well as they get the good press from hCal, they will realise that they want more
  148. [12:43:23] <drewinthehead> so you're saying a bat probably isn't required?
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  151. [12:57:25] <julianstahnke> I'm just working on the hCard :D
  152. [12:57:30] <julianstahnke> for last.fm, that is
  153. [12:57:45] <julianstahnke> and we have hCards for the venues
  154. [12:58:24] <julianstahnke> look: http://www.staging.last.fm/venue/8777985
  155. [12:58:31] <julianstahnke> oh, sorry, remove the staging part
  156. [13:03:02] <drewinthehead> hah .. ace, julianstahnke
  157. [13:03:05] <drewinthehead> taking a look
  158. [13:05:53] <drewinthehead> good stuff. is rel="friend" for links to friends' profiles a possibility at any point?
  159. [13:06:12] <julianstahnke> at some point
  160. [13:06:12] <julianstahnke> I'm rather busy with other stuff
  161. [13:06:34] <drewinthehead> of course
  162. [13:06:54] <drewinthehead> ... and a pony, please.
  163. [13:06:56] <drewinthehead> ;)
  164. [13:06:58] <julianstahnke> ;)
  165. [13:07:17] <julianstahnke> btw, are you the guy at the london microformats meeting that talked first?
  166. [13:07:31] <julianstahnke> about the semantic web with capital/lowercase letters?
  167. [13:09:20] <drewinthehead> nope, i'm the guy who talked last, about APIs
  168. [13:09:37] <julianstahnke> ah
  169. [13:09:42] <julianstahnke> that was very interesting!
  170. [13:10:22] <drewinthehead> :) the guy on first was Norm
  171. [13:10:26] * remi (n=remi@csf-127.cegep-ste-foy.qc.ca) has joined #microformats
  172. [13:10:26] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  173. [13:10:26] <julianstahnke> we thought about implementing that in our add event form, but it's not possible because we don't have fields that directly map to properties
  174. [13:10:52] <drewinthehead> yes, that's one hurdle
  175. [13:25:12] * daggi (n=chrisada@80-193-38-68.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  176. [13:25:21] <daggi> hi all
  177. [13:26:12] <daggi> anyone here use hear of using microformats in structuring papers for large meetings, like council meetings where large numbers of people vote on issues?
  178. [13:26:53] <briansuda> there has been a few proposals in the past, but i don't think there is anything unique about your situation
  179. [13:27:10] <briansuda> there is work on a Chat format, there are vevents, and hcards for people
  180. [13:27:32] <briansuda> you can vote using rel-voteLinks and use #item1
  181. [13:27:38] <briansuda> to backreference it
  182. [13:28:18] <drewinthehead> and good old html lists
  183. [13:28:19] <daggi> i was thinking along the lines of council meetings at my university
  184. [13:28:36] <daggi> and putting together a 'motion-matic' of sorts
  185. [13:28:52] <briansuda> so this is BEFORE the meeting. not after
  186. [13:28:56] <daggi> yeah
  187. [13:29:18] <briansuda> well you can use hReviews without a rating
  188. [13:29:20] <daggi> providing a way to guide the structure motions, to make the process easier
  189. [13:29:28] <briansuda> then 'review' and person, place, event, thing
  190. [13:29:37] <briansuda> those could be each adgenda item
  191. [13:29:52] <briansuda> hCard for any speakers, staff members etc
  192. [13:29:59] <daggi> yeah
  193. [13:30:08] <briansuda> vevents for each sections...
  194. [13:30:16] <briansuda> roll-call, items, open questions, etc
  195. [13:30:39] <drewinthehead> what does the document look like at the moment?
  196. [13:30:45] <daggi> so breaking the parts of ameeting into smaller, chunks of a meeting dicussing specific issues?
  197. [13:30:56] <daggi> let me find an example online
  198. [13:31:06] * daggi ruffles through open windows
  199. [13:31:36] <briansuda> the W3C uses RDF to control their meeting minutes. You could adapt their structure using existing Microformats (http://www.w3.org/2004/02/agenda)
  200. [13:32:31] <daggi> this page has a few motions from a recent student council meeting - http://www.uwsu.com/DisplayPage.asp?pageid=20221
  201. [13:33:20] <daggi> at present, students write them in word, without really understanding what the various parts of a motion actually are
  202. [13:33:32] <daggi> and often end up proposing fairly bonkers ideas
  203. [13:33:42] <daggi> that end up being policy
  204. [13:34:17] <daggi> the quality of debate doesn't end up being all that good, and few people have access to relevant facts
  205. [13:35:30] <daggi> so I'm toying with the idea of using microformats to guide people through the process, and eventually provide a repository of successful model motions for organisations to follow
  206. [13:35:56] <briansuda> it is a good idea, but i think there are larger user problems
  207. [13:36:07] <briansuda> you could simply use a WORD template and solve alot of the problems
  208. [13:36:07] <daggi> briansuda: putting it lightly :)
  209. [13:37:04] <daggi> briansuda: true
  210. [13:37:26] <drewinthehead> has anyone researched marking up polls?
  211. [13:37:36] <drewinthehead> could be related
  212. [13:37:39] * briansuda vaguely remembers something
  213. [13:38:06] * daggi looks through wikipedia
  214. [13:38:09] <daggi> oops
  215. [13:38:16] <daggi> microformats wiki
  216. [13:38:23] <briansuda> your proposals, look just like <ol> and <h1> with proposer (hCards) and seconder (hCard)
  217. [13:38:30] <briansuda> and that is xoxo
  218. [13:39:18] <daggi> xoxo?
  219. [13:39:55] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
  220. [13:40:14] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  221. [13:40:18] <daggi> thanks
  222. [13:45:08] <daggi> briansuda: xoxo looks like an ideal starting point for what I'm getting at - thanks for the headsup
  223. [13:45:14] <briansuda> not a prob
  224. [13:45:33] <briansuda> usually there is already a combination of Microformats which solve a big chunk of issues
  225. [13:45:54] <briansuda> there is also lots of software that can import/export XOXO into arrays
  226. [13:46:12] <briansuda> then you could 'auto-build' your entire agenda, issues, dependancies etc
  227. [13:48:25] <daggi> yeah
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  229. [13:54:23] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable128.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  230. [13:54:23] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  236. [15:00:23] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) has joined #microformats
  237. [15:00:23] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  238. [15:00:23] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  239. [15:07:56] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  240. [15:07:57] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  241. [15:14:21] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  242. [15:19:17] <julianstahnke> for those who are interested, we just added hCards on profile pages and fixed some issues with the other microformat stuff (at Last.fm). If someone wants to have a play ... :)
  243. [15:34:38] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("Some Kind of Raid Boss")
  244. [15:35:35] <drewinthehead> awesome, julianstahnke
  245. [15:35:36] <drewinthehead> http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://www.last.fm/user/drewinthehead/
  246. [15:36:11] <julianstahnke> yeah, we're going to have your city in there soon as well
  247. [15:36:58] <julianstahnke> if any of you guys has an idea what to add, no matter where, just tell me or write a mail to julian@last.fm or gimme a shout
  248. [15:39:16] <drewinthehead> will do
  249. [15:39:26] <julianstahnke> cheers :)
  250. [15:39:31] <trovster> heh, registered today ;)
  251. [15:39:47] <trovster> http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://www.last.fm/user/trovster/
  252. [15:40:11] <julianstahnke> woa, wait ... could we use that very URL to check user details for sign ups?
  253. [15:40:25] <julianstahnke> like, the user inputs his URL and we get the hCard from it?
  254. [15:40:57] <drewinthehead> sure
  255. [15:41:33] <drewinthehead> well, that's running a php library called hkit - you give it a url and it returns an array of values
  256. [15:41:49] <trovster> Where is that hCard fetch details to fill in a form, drewinthehead ?
  257. [15:42:04] <julianstahnke> that was giving me 404s yesterday
  258. [15:42:22] <drewinthehead> autocomplete demo is here: http://allinthehead.com/demo/autocomplete/
  259. [15:42:56] <drewinthehead> and the 'pick a profile' one is here: http://allinthehead.com/demo/hkit-signup/
  260. [15:43:10] <drewinthehead> and that server is running like a dog (grr @ Textdrive)
  261. [15:43:36] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9940 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2311)
  262. [15:44:03] <julianstahnke> all in the head: 404 Not Found
  263. [15:44:07] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9941 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2)
  264. [15:44:24] <drewinthehead> really? woah
  265. [15:44:41] <julianstahnke> it's all giving me 404s after submitting the form
  266. [15:44:55] <drewinthehead> ah, don't submit the form :)
  267. [15:45:18] <julianstahnke> ?
  268. [15:45:22] <julianstahnke> so what do I do... ?
  269. [15:45:35] <julianstahnke> ah!
  270. [15:45:37] <trovster> It just shows the population
  271. [15:45:38] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9942 * ChristopheDucamp * (+60) Laughing Squid Calendar -
  272. [15:45:39] <drewinthehead> both are just demos of the concept of asking for a url up front, and then using ajax to go fetch the rest of the details
  273. [15:46:02] <drewinthehead> (and both a really rough, technically!)
  274. [15:46:29] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9943 * ChristopheDucamp * (+67) Scott Reynen -
  275. [15:47:40] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9944 * ChristopheDucamp * (+75) Université de Bath -
  276. [15:50:11] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9945 * ChristopheDucamp * (+275) Web Essentials -
  277. [15:51:42] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9946 * ChristopheDucamp * (-147) Marie-Caroline Lanfranchi -
  278. [15:52:18] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9947 * ChristopheDucamp * (+151) Kingsley Joseph -
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  284. [16:27:33] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  285. [16:29:58] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  286. [16:29:58] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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  295. [16:56:30] <trav> Anybody know if there's a way, in a DTD, to explicitly disallow a particular character within a certain element?
  296. [17:01:43] * qid (n=david@pdpc/supporter/student/qid) has joined #microformats
  297. [17:01:43] <jibot> qid is David Osolkowski (http://wadny.com/)
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  313. [18:09:42] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.38) has joined #microformats
  314. [18:09:42] <jibot> veeliam is William Lawrence of Quiddities Dev out of Santa Cruz and he does something at http://zaxbypass.com and here and there
  315. [18:19:01] * daggi (n=chrisada@80-193-38-68.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit ()
  316. [18:24:13] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  317. [18:24:13] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  318. [18:27:47] <KevinMarks> http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/
  319. [18:28:00] <KevinMarks> this really needs hCalendar support
  320. [18:28:06] <KevinMarks> the xml is very clsoe
  321. [18:47:24] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  322. [18:47:40] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  323. [18:52:27] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  324. [18:52:27] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  325. [18:52:28] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  326. [18:55:22] <bewes1> KevinMarks: I think that's on one of my todo lists somewhere
  327. [18:55:41] <bewes1> timeline + map + hCalendar
  328. [18:55:46] <bewes1> + hCard
  329. [18:56:21] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  330. [18:56:21] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  331. [18:56:41] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  332. [18:57:48] * plindberg_ (n=plindber@c-de3b71d5.416-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #microformats
  333. [18:58:26] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  334. [18:58:26] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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  336. [19:02:09] * bengee (n=bengee@muedsl-82-207-128-166.citykom.de) Quit ("Leaving")
  337. [19:15:53] <KevinMarks> very logo-like: http://www.flickr.com/photos/historyanorak/280106942/
  338. [19:16:02] <KevinMarks> or am I getting apophenia?
  339. [19:16:13] * Phae looks.
  340. [19:16:22] <Phae> It is.
  341. [19:31:59] <kapowaz> what's apophenia?
  342. [19:32:33] <kingryan> ask a dictionary :D
  343. [19:34:01] <kapowaz> I just did
  344. [19:34:04] <kapowaz> and it didn't know!
  345. [19:34:07] <kapowaz> hence why I asked :)
  346. [19:34:22] <kapowaz> evening btw Phae
  347. [19:34:34] <Phae> hi
  348. [19:34:35] <kingryan> ask wikipedia, then :D
  349. [19:34:42] <kingryan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
  350. [19:34:58] <kapowaz> "Apophenia is the experience of seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data"
  351. [19:35:01] <kapowaz> I like that.
  352. [19:35:12] <kapowaz> what a rorschach test is for eh
  353. [19:42:33] <Atamido> Isn't that what that guy in A Beautiful Mind had?
  354. [19:43:09] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  355. [19:43:14] <Phae> doesn't everyone have it a bit... it's more unusual not to see any patterns ever
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  357. [19:50:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  358. [19:50:36] <kapowaz> I thought that was the point
  359. [19:50:51] <kapowaz> like, autistics can't see anything or something like that
  360. [19:51:05] <kapowaz> I could be mistaken.
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  366. [19:58:32] <mlinksva> Atamido, john nash had schizophrenia. and "a beautiful mind" is the worst movie ever
  367. [19:59:02] <Atamido> Ouch.
  368. [19:59:29] <Atamido> I liked it, but I did far prefer I Am Sam, which I think should have won the awards instead.
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  373. [20:05:53] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  374. [20:14:46] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ()
  375. [20:16:15] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  376. [20:17:00] <cgriego> does the tm_dialog -p option accept any plist or only xml?
  377. [20:18:32] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  378. [20:18:44] <cgriego> whoops, wrong channel
  379. [20:18:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  382. [20:23:20] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  383. [20:23:20] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  390. [20:56:31] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples&diff=0&oldid=9948 * Bob Jonkman * (+7) References to People and Organizations -
  391. [21:04:31] <pnhChris> so, how many lashes with a wet noodle might one get for publishing "hatom" sans entry dates of any form (thus invalid)
  392. [21:07:11] <drewinthehead> i guess it's fine, it's all valid html, right? is it any less valid than publishing without any class names that happen to coexist in the hatom spec?
  393. [21:13:32] <pnhChris> sure
  394. [21:14:40] <drewinthehead> it's just not hatom, because hatom requires dates
  395. [21:14:57] <pnhChris> its just a comments list on a user page that to this point i don't think any relevent date information is provided (don't ask)... but it would still benefit form the structure + subscribability
  396. [21:15:10] <pnhChris> well
  397. [21:16:46] <pnhChris> its "not hatom" but how harmful is it to claim it is (in pratice).. i guess is my question
  398. [21:17:39] <pnhChris> and it'll be valid xhtml.. with good hcards and other content.. just "invalid" hatom
  399. [21:20:51] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  400. [21:20:51] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  401. [21:21:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  402. [21:23:44] <drewinthehead> is there such a thing, in the context of an xhtml page
  403. [21:23:55] <Frederic> Wow, next BarCamp Paris is at Google's
  404. [21:24:11] <drewinthehead> it's not like you're publishing some kind of hatom document
  405. [21:24:55] <pnhChris> i duuno i guess
  406. [21:25:29] <pnhChris> its part phlisophical and part practical/how consumers deal
  407. [21:29:49] <drewinthehead> i'm not sure really ... it's a bit abstract
  408. [21:40:27] <pnhChris> we'll see.. it might be moot if i can dig up a date somewhere anyway
  409. [21:41:14] <julianstahnke> is there a 'gender' property for hCards? I couldn't find one ... either I'm blind or someone forgot that part
  410. [21:41:56] <julianstahnke> and how do I get the bot to announce where I'm working and stuff? :)
  411. [21:44:33] <kapowaz> julianstahnke: ?def
  412. [21:44:37] <kapowaz> I think
  413. [21:44:43] <tantek> ?help
  414. [21:44:48] <julianstahnke> ?help
  415. [21:44:50] <beNson> ?help
  416. [21:44:51] <beNson> :D
  417. [21:44:53] <julianstahnke> hm
  418. [21:44:58] <kapowaz> does that even do anything?
  419. [21:45:02] <julianstahnke> nope
  420. [21:45:08] <kapowaz> I'm sure I've tried it before and been met with silence
  421. [21:45:10] <kapowaz> ?def kapowaz
  422. [21:45:11] <beNson> I got a query
  423. [21:45:14] <KevinMarks> it sends you a pm
  424. [21:45:16] <kapowaz> is jibot working?
  425. [21:45:19] <jibot> kapowaz is Ben Darlow, a web developer in London who writes stuff at http://kapowaz.net/
  426. [21:45:20] * jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-bb87d93eb8f565bb) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 1.5.0.7/2006092109]")
  427. [21:45:24] <kapowaz> ah yes it is
  428. [21:45:37] <tantek> julianstahnke - you have to be "identified" on freenode
  429. [21:45:42] <kapowaz> hmm
  430. [21:45:43] <kapowaz> you know
  431. [21:45:46] <julianstahnke> woa, how do I do that?
  432. [21:45:52] <kapowaz> I'm *sure* I put http://www.kapowaz.net/ in that definition
  433. [21:45:57] <kapowaz> does jibot strip out the www. ?
  434. [21:46:06] <KevinMarks> do ?learn julianstahnke is a microformats fan
  435. [21:46:14] * kapowaz is protesting against all this anti-www prefixing
  436. [21:46:28] <KevinMarks> no, jibot only parses for 'and' '&' and 'is'
  437. [21:46:35] <tantek> kapowaz - do you get a cut of "www." usage?
  438. [21:46:38] <julianstahnke> ?learn julianstahnke works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  439. [21:46:38] <jibot> I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
  440. [21:46:56] <kapowaz> yes.
  441. [21:46:59] <tantek> http://no-www.org/
  442. [21:46:59] <kapowaz> five dollah per go.
  443. [21:47:03] <kapowaz> I know about that
  444. [21:47:07] <kapowaz> but I still don't buy it
  445. [21:47:15] <kapowaz> for starters, domain names are multipurpose
  446. [21:47:16] <julianstahnke> ?learn julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  447. [21:47:16] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  448. [21:47:20] <julianstahnke> yeah
  449. [21:47:24] <drewinthehead> awesome
  450. [21:47:26] <KevinMarks> yay for julian
  451. [21:47:33] <julianstahnke> thanks guys :)
  452. [21:47:35] <kapowaz> \o/
  453. [21:47:44] <tantek> and as far as gender in hCard - you can do some of that with honorific prefix
  454. [21:47:53] <kapowaz> I'm with TBL anyway, I think web.foo.com would have been better
  455. [21:47:58] * KevinMarks recruits julian to help think about media-info
  456. [21:48:04] <kapowaz> but I think there's more symmetry to 'www.kapowaz.net' than 'kapowaz.net'
  457. [21:48:10] <julianstahnke> woa, is that what it sounds like?
  458. [21:48:11] <tantek> waste of 4 bytes
  459. [21:48:18] <kapowaz> it's like, you know that ornamentation you see in menus?
  460. [21:48:25] <kapowaz> what do they call it? the wood ornaments or whatever
  461. [21:48:28] <kapowaz> it's like that
  462. [21:48:35] <julianstahnke> some people at last.fm would really like to mark up albums and tracks and stuff with appropriate microformats
  463. [21:48:37] <kapowaz> -oO something Oo-
  464. [21:48:51] <KevinMarks> ten.zawopah.kapawaz.net is even more symmetric
  465. [21:49:01] <kapowaz> of course, the fact that I got www.kapowaz.net printed on all my business cards is merely a footnote.
  466. [21:49:20] <kapowaz> i.am.not.related.to.derek.powazek.kapowaz.net
  467. [21:49:21] <KevinMarks> your urls are all already great tagspaces
  468. [21:49:27] <tantek> "www." is so web 1.0
  469. [21:49:37] <kapowaz> it is also web 3.0
  470. [21:49:40] <kapowaz> I am skipping a generation.
  471. [21:49:50] <KevinMarks> web2.kapowaz.com ?
  472. [21:49:51] <tantek> nah it's gone. like a vestigial tail.
  473. [21:50:00] <tantek> no evolutionary need for it.
  474. [21:50:08] <KevinMarks> coccyx.kapowaz.com ?
  475. [21:50:30] <kapowaz> I don't have .com
  476. [21:50:39] <beNson> kapowaz: What do you mean by "domain names are multi purpose"?
  477. [21:50:40] <kapowaz> my crazy friend Fraser Campbell registered it
  478. [21:50:41] <kapowaz> the swine
  479. [21:51:05] <kapowaz> okay, well my personal domain name is a poor example, but for argument's sake let's consider my gaming clan - "HellJumpers"
  480. [21:51:15] <kapowaz> we've got helljumpers.net (and .com, although it's essentially defunct)
  481. [21:51:30] <kapowaz> I have created a fair few records for subdomains, each of which has a different purpose
  482. [21:51:35] * julianstahnke just found the media-info-brainstorming page :o
  483. [21:51:39] <kapowaz> we have a teamspeak (voice comms) server
  484. [21:51:45] <kapowaz> we also have a dedicated game host server
  485. [21:52:05] <kapowaz> so... where should helljumpers.net point to in this case?
  486. [21:52:08] <kapowaz> if www. is the website
  487. [21:52:13] <kapowaz> and teamspeak. is the TS server
  488. [21:52:19] <kapowaz> and dods. is the day of defeat server
  489. [21:52:24] <kapowaz> where does the plain ol' .net go?
  490. [21:52:34] <kapowaz> conundrum!
  491. [21:52:45] <kapowaz> as it happens I can't remember off the top of my head :)
  492. [21:52:47] <beNson> considering you put an http:// in front, which defaults to port 80 i'd say it's a request for a website .. ;)
  493. [21:52:50] <kapowaz> but I think it points to the dedicated server
  494. [21:52:58] <kapowaz> that'd make no difference though
  495. [21:53:07] <kapowaz> if the IP address was pointing to another server then it'd not help
  496. [21:53:23] <kapowaz> the wrong server would receive a request on port 80 and it'd go "Meh? I'm a gameserver. Go away"
  497. [21:54:01] <beNson> yes, but then the user is at fault..
  498. [21:54:04] <kapowaz> why?
  499. [21:54:05] <kingryan> kapowaz: all of those services run on different tcp/ip ports
  500. [21:54:14] <kapowaz> kingryan: and on entirely different servers
  501. [21:54:21] <kapowaz> you think I'd run a gameserver on a box set up for web usage?
  502. [21:54:26] <kapowaz> or vice versa?
  503. [21:54:33] <kapowaz> do you have any idea how much bandwidth a gameserver consumes?
  504. [21:54:38] <kapowaz> I'd be broke
  505. [21:54:43] <kingryan> but do jelljumpers and www.helljumpers run on different servers?
  506. [21:54:56] <kapowaz> as it happens... they both point to the same IP :)
  507. [21:55:08] <beNson> when I type "http://example.org/" i very much expect the result to be an html-file (even though other formats may be transfered with http)
  508. [21:55:11] <kapowaz> but I don't advertise the one without www. for the reason that one day, conceivably, it might not be used for that
  509. [21:55:13] <kingryan> and both serve the same content?
  510. [21:55:30] <kapowaz> I've set up apache to redirect the non-www to the www
  511. [21:55:36] <kapowaz> same as on kapowaz.net
  512. [21:55:54] <beNson> I mean what kind of moron would set up a game server on port 80?
  513. [21:55:58] <kapowaz> heh
  514. [21:56:08] <kapowaz> you're confusing me beNson
  515. [21:56:25] <kapowaz> stop thinking of them as websites and start thinking of them as aliases for IP addresses
  516. [21:56:44] <kapowaz> if helljumpers.net = 10.0.0.1 and www.helljumpers.net = 10.0.0.2 then you're not going to get the same result for both
  517. [21:56:57] <kapowaz> and you wouldn't run a webserver on your gameserver just in case
  518. [21:57:12] <beNson> the domain name is an alias for an ip address, an URI is not
  519. [21:57:14] <kapowaz> anyway. I have ranted overlong. My beer warms.
  520. [21:57:37] <kapowaz> true, but http://helljumpers.net/ is only a URI by some vague abstraction
  521. [21:57:47] <beNson> and when you type in "example.org" into your browser it defaults to "http://example.org" which is an URI
  522. [21:57:51] <kapowaz> in the same sense that http://localhost/ is a URI
  523. [21:57:56] * tantek wonders what no-www has to do with microformats
  524. [21:58:02] <kapowaz> very little!
  525. [21:58:08] <tantek> perhaps you have mistaken this channel for microurls?
  526. [21:58:10] <tantek> ;)
  527. [21:58:12] <kapowaz> but I have noticed it as a trend lately that MF advocates tend to strip it off
  528. [21:58:18] <beNson> ;)
  529. [21:58:30] <tantek> kapowaz, it is much broader (and earlier) trend than microformats
  530. [21:58:34] <kingryan> correlation != causation
  531. [21:58:35] <kapowaz> Drew, Norm and Jeremy all advertised their sites sans-www at the recent MF meetup in London
  532. [21:58:40] <kapowaz> aye
  533. [21:58:47] <kapowaz> very true.
  534. [21:58:48] <tantek> kapowaz, you are just now noticing this?
  535. [21:58:53] <drewinthehead> that's coz we're too kool for skool.
  536. [21:59:00] <tantek> drewinthehead++
  537. [21:59:01] <beNson> yeah .. Norm made quite some fuzz about it :P
  538. [21:59:04] <kapowaz> well, you've not had www on yours for ages have you tantek?
  539. [21:59:16] <tantek> right
  540. [21:59:24] <kapowaz> and John Gruber doesn't either
  541. [21:59:27] <tantek> in the 80/20 case, no www is necessary
  542. [21:59:34] * tantek attempts to tie in microformats philosophy
  543. [21:59:43] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-235-106.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  544. [21:59:48] <kapowaz> the thing is, enough sites *don't* handle no-www that I'd not assume it to work
  545. [21:59:48] <drewinthehead> just yesterday i used mod_rewrite to force redirection of www to . on one of my sites
  546. [21:59:57] <kapowaz> personally I think it should be a UA thing
  547. [22:00:00] <tantek> kapowaz - i assume those sites have lame admins
  548. [22:00:05] <kapowaz> very true
  549. [22:00:11] <kapowaz> but all the same, it doesn't help the user much
  550. [22:00:17] <kingryan> www.microformats.org and *.microformats.com are redirected to microformats.org :D
  551. [22:00:19] <tantek> the market picks better sites
  552. [22:00:20] <kapowaz> like just earlier this evening, I typed ww.ebay.co.uk
  553. [22:00:22] <tantek> that helps the user
  554. [22:00:28] <kapowaz> try ww.google.com
  555. [22:00:31] <kapowaz> and compare
  556. [22:01:03] <kapowaz> somehow I doubt the market is excluding ebay because of this error
  557. [22:01:10] <drewinthehead> i often type addresses without a www and find they've not even bothered to configure that
  558. [22:01:26] <drewinthehead> which is the worst crime
  559. [22:01:27] <kapowaz> like I said, I reckon it should be a UA feature; if the no-www host doesn't work, it should try it
  560. [22:01:44] <kapowaz> (with www)
  561. [22:02:16] <kapowaz> I agree it is lame when sysadmins don't bother to handle it, but then there are a lot of websites out there being run by very lame sysadmins.
  562. [22:02:34] <beNson> true :)
  563. [22:02:47] <kapowaz> like, say, idiots who don't back up their ~/www dir before reimaging their server
  564. [22:02:50] <kapowaz> COUGH.
  565. [22:03:02] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-235-106.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
  566. [22:03:44] <beNson> i get the sensation someone in this very channel made this mistake?
  567. [22:03:45] <kapowaz> and there was silence.
  568. [22:03:48] <kapowaz> yes
  569. [22:03:49] <kapowaz> me
  570. [22:03:53] <beNson> ;)
  571. [22:04:08] <kapowaz> http://www.kapowaz.net/derailed.html
  572. [22:04:12] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-235-106.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  573. [22:04:34] <drewinthehead> if you're leaving it up to the UA to guess, where does that end?
  574. [22:04:41] <drewinthehead> how does the UA know what to guess?
  575. [22:05:10] <kapowaz> well, a fairly simple rule: if a domain was attempted sans-www and it returns a host not found, try the same domain with www. at the start. If that doesn't work either, stop trying?
  576. [22:05:11] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  577. [22:05:11] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  578. [22:05:16] <kingryan> UAs already guess
  579. [22:05:21] <drewinthehead> if a .com doesn't resolve, should it try the .pl ?
  580. [22:06:02] <kapowaz> well... no.
  581. [22:06:12] <kapowaz> although I do think that IE does something like that
  582. [22:06:18] <kapowaz> I'm sure
  583. [22:06:33] <beNson> btw, I really liked your slides drew.. more image less text ;D
  584. [22:06:53] * kapowaz claps
  585. [22:07:04] <drewinthehead> having predefined locations for stuff is bad ... take the /favicon.ico situation for example
  586. [22:07:13] <drewinthehead> thanks beNson
  587. [22:07:46] <beNson> you're welcome
  588. [22:07:46] <kapowaz> well, this would be slightly different... it's only a single rule to check and see
  589. [22:07:56] <drewinthehead> that was only a single rule too
  590. [22:08:00] <kapowaz> after all, if domain.com failed, the user has nothing left to lose
  591. [22:08:05] <drewinthehead> each rule is only a single rule when you add it
  592. [22:08:19] <kapowaz> a fair point, although I think that one is a slightly different situation.
  593. [22:08:32] <kapowaz> that's where you've already established a domain works and can be requested against
  594. [22:08:40] <kapowaz> this is trying to even find the right address
  595. [22:08:52] <kapowaz> and hey, if it fails after a second attempt, no big loss
  596. [22:09:11] <drewinthehead> the only thing i think www is good for is cluing the user into the fact that the following words are a web address - and that only makes sense offline
  597. [22:09:14] <kingryan> why not try www2.example.com?
  598. [22:09:15] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  599. [22:09:25] <kingryan> or web.example.com?
  600. [22:09:30] <kapowaz> because very few hosts use that
  601. [22:09:34] <kapowaz> as I'm sure you know ;)
  602. [22:09:38] <kingryan> I do know
  603. [22:09:46] <kapowaz> as a proportion of all the websites out there, it would be a thousandth of a percent
  604. [22:09:49] <kapowaz> if that
  605. [22:10:09] <kapowaz> and truth be told, I imagine no-www hosts are also in the minority as far as the 'preferred' domain goes
  606. [22:10:16] <kingryan> I also know that having the same content at multiple URLs causes difficulties for people who want to consume the data
  607. [22:10:22] <kapowaz> but then this is about handling things gracefully for the user
  608. [22:10:32] <kapowaz> that's easily handled with mod_rewrite
  609. [22:10:40] <drewinthehead> lately, i've noted a lot of UK print ads going the no-www route
  610. [22:10:45] <kapowaz> I have a rule that redirects any request to the same URL on the intended domain
  611. [22:10:58] <kingryan> no its not, kapowaz, because the content still has two different identifiers
  612. [22:11:00] <drewinthehead> British Airways use just 'ba.com'
  613. [22:11:19] <kapowaz> hang on
  614. [22:11:23] <kapowaz> how?
  615. [22:11:27] <kapowaz> if only one is ever published?
  616. [22:11:29] * julianstahnke_ (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  617. [22:11:32] <kapowaz> and the user can only end up at one?
  618. [22:11:34] * kingryan notes that 'ba.com' redirects to 'http://www.britishairways.com/travel/globalgateway.jsp/global/public/en_'
  619. [22:11:46] <drewinthehead> boo :(
  620. [22:11:51] <kapowaz> aye
  621. [22:11:57] <kingryan> but... they always redirect to www
  622. [22:12:10] <kingryan> if you're going to use www.foo, *always* use it
  623. [22:12:16] <kingryan> *always*
  624. [22:12:16] <kapowaz> I'm lost then. What's the problem with that (other than the nastiness of the url)
  625. [22:12:18] <drewinthehead> the point being, however, that the 'www' isn't so necessary as a visual clue in print ads any more
  626. [22:12:29] <kapowaz> in print I agree it makes sense to drop it
  627. [22:12:35] <kingryan> kapowaz: it's pointless, but if you're going to use it, be consistent
  628. [22:12:50] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  629. [22:13:25] * drewinthehead is guilty of inconsistency in the past
  630. [22:13:31] <kapowaz> I'm still not sure of the harm to the user, assuming we're not literally talking redirecting from one URI to another that appears unrelated
  631. [22:13:53] <kapowaz> I mean, a user who types in ba.com is almost certainly going to know it means British Airways
  632. [22:14:13] <kapowaz> if they typed ba.com and were expecting to go to BA Baracus's personal homepage, *then* they'd worry.
  633. [22:14:18] <kapowaz> as would we all.
  634. [22:14:38] <kapowaz> gulp
  635. [22:14:45] <kapowaz> down to the last beer.
  636. [22:14:53] * beNson__ (i=beNson@pD953714B.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  637. [22:16:01] * beNson__ (i=beNson@pD953714B.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #microformats
  638. [22:16:09] * beNson__ (i=beNson@pD953714B.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  639. [22:16:31] <kapowaz> o/
  640. [22:16:37] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  641. [22:17:00] <kapowaz> okay, one last thing on the no-www thing
  642. [22:17:14] <kapowaz> if you're going to drop the www, *don't* go around sticking http:// on the front unless it's there for a purpose
  643. [22:17:35] <drewinthehead> in print, you mean?
  644. [22:17:35] <kapowaz> like, a functional purpose other than a "hey, this is a website!" purpose.
  645. [22:17:44] <kapowaz> print, slides, wherever
  646. [22:17:58] <kapowaz> if it's already a link then it's unnecessary
  647. [22:18:08] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
  648. [22:19:44] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  649. [22:19:53] <kapowaz> I've just thought of one other advantage to using www. though...
  650. [22:19:56] * julianstahnke_ (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  651. [22:20:08] <kapowaz> MSN Messenger automatically converts www.foo.com into a clickable link
  652. [22:20:12] <kapowaz> but not foo.com
  653. [22:20:32] <kapowaz> I imagine there are a number of programs and website parsers that do the same
  654. [22:20:46] <tantek> as does Colloquy IRC client
  655. [22:21:19] <julianstahnke> to be honest, I think foo.com would be a bit too generic to turn into a link
  656. [22:21:44] <kapowaz> heh
  657. [22:21:47] <tantek> I disagree - again, 80/20 case is that it is a URL
  658. [22:23:10] <kapowaz> wonder why it never became a convention
  659. [22:23:19] <kapowaz> I'm trying to think of a likely pattern that would be a false match
  660. [22:23:19] <hober> FWIW, www.eventful.com redirects to eventful.com
  661. [22:23:33] <drewinthehead> i don't see a lot of people referring to command.com these days
  662. [22:23:35] * beNson (i=beNson@pD9537D81.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  663. [22:23:42] <kapowaz> ah yes, file extensions
  664. [22:24:21] <kapowaz> it'd be easy enough to only match a known set of TLDs though
  665. [22:25:25] <julianstahnke> true. yeah, I think you're right
  666. [22:26:22] <kapowaz> hooray
  667. [22:26:32] <kapowaz> I have won my auction on ebay, after all that
  668. [22:26:38] <kapowaz> Vintage 1940s IMPERIAL GOOD COMPANION T Typewriter
  669. [22:26:44] * kapowaz cheers
  670. [22:26:51] <kingryan> now that's definitely off topic :D
  671. [22:26:56] <kapowaz> I can finally get rid of this goddamned computer
  672. [22:27:29] <julianstahnke> picture please ;)
  673. [22:27:47] <kapowaz> http://www.g4.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/imp.jpg
  674. [22:28:03] <julianstahnke> cool
  675. [22:28:41] <tantek> does that typewriter do superscripted "th"s ?
  676. [22:28:46] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  677. [22:29:38] <kapowaz> hmm, I'm not sure
  678. [22:29:43] <kapowaz> why?
  679. [22:30:02] <kapowaz> it's okay, I only intend to use it for writing out ransom notes.
  680. [22:30:49] <KevinMarks> not george bush's army servcie records?
  681. [22:31:23] <kapowaz> no. those are done with Word 97
  682. [22:31:29] * kapowaz grins
  683. [22:31:41] <kapowaz> hey, does anybody read Fake Steve's blog?
  684. [22:32:30] <kapowaz> I just love it.
  685. [22:32:48] <kapowaz> I know, I'm banging the off-topic drum like there's no tomorrow, because, well, for all I know there isn't one.
  686. [22:32:51] <kapowaz> http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2006/10/good-luck-dvd-jon.html
  687. [22:37:50] <kapowaz> whilst I'm on a roll... this is a good rebuttal to what TBL wrote about HTML the other day: http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/why-tim-berners-lee-is-wrong/
  688. [22:38:03] <kapowaz> there was something disconcerting about it, and I couldn't put my finger on it.
  689. [22:38:13] <kapowaz> that article does it in words that I failed to find.
  690. [22:38:18] <tantek> that's a pretty harsh post title
  691. [22:39:01] <tantek> and it completely misses the point
  692. [22:39:16] <tantek> it's an XML-head that doesn't get that the Web has rejected the "XML Vision"
  693. [22:39:20] <tantek> yawn
  694. [22:40:07] <kapowaz> still, I think he's right to point out that TBL was pointing to a problem I can't say I've ever noticed
  695. [22:40:10] <hober> this was a much better response to timbl etc.: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.w3c.miscellaneous/248
  696. [22:40:15] <kapowaz> "The attempt to get the world to switch to XML, including quotes around attribute values and slashes in empty tags and namespaces all at once didn’t work."
  697. [22:40:23] <kapowaz> really? it didn't? so, nobody's using XHTML?
  698. [22:40:45] <tantek> kapowaz, the adoption has been poor at best for 100% valid XHTML
  699. [22:40:50] <kapowaz> maybe if he meant nobody's using the correct XHTML content-type from the server he'd be right, but there's an awful lot of markup tagged as XHTML
  700. [22:40:52] <boneill> namespaces :|
  701. [22:41:00] <tantek> and nearly non-existent for XHTML as application/xhtml+xml
  702. [22:41:12] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  703. [22:41:13] <kapowaz> speaking pragmatically though... what does it matter?
  704. [22:41:16] <tantek> most markup that claims to be XHTML is not valid XHTML
  705. [22:41:26] <tantek> and yeah, namespaces are pretty much dead on the web
  706. [22:41:53] <tantek> kapowaz, it matters if you care about the evolution of the Web
  707. [22:41:59] <tantek> and who should be helping / driving the evolution
  708. [22:42:26] <kapowaz> and who is driving that evolution?
  709. [22:42:28] <kapowaz> the W3C?
  710. [22:42:35] <kapowaz> the lights might have been on, but...
  711. [22:42:46] <boneill> semantic web! :P
  712. [22:42:49] <hober> kapowaz: you should read that hixie email I linked to
  713. [22:42:49] * Whafro (n=alter@65.107.196.194.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  714. [22:42:54] <kapowaz> hober: ok
  715. [22:44:35] <tantek> indeed - hixie's response is much more clueful than that other blog post.
  716. [22:45:02] <kapowaz> there was some in that blog post I found myself nodding to, call me uninformed if you will.
  717. [22:45:35] <kapowaz> you'd think TBL was living in some parallel universe where browsers didn't handle badly formed markup well
  718. [22:46:02] <kapowaz> actually no, that's not true
  719. [22:46:06] <kapowaz> I take that back
  720. [22:46:11] <KevinMarks> sam ruby got him there
  721. [22:46:13] <hober> Ultimately, I think the *technical* problems of recent W3C spec work (FSVO 'recent', heh) are generally manifestations of underlying *procedural* and *structural* problems with the W3C and its process
  722. [22:46:34] <kapowaz> certainly I agree with criticism related to things like XForms and XHTML2
  723. [22:46:48] <kapowaz> those have always seemed like pie in the sky to me
  724. [22:46:54] <hober> WHAT WG isn't just doing better spec work; they're doing better spec work because their structure & process are more reasonable
  725. [22:47:19] <kapowaz> but then is that surprising?
  726. [22:47:50] <kapowaz> I forget who it was who wrote it - was it Eric Meyer? - but somebody pointed out that the W3C's working groups are largely consisted of people whose interests are quite mercenary
  727. [22:48:00] <kapowaz> mobile phone service providers, for instance
  728. [22:48:25] <kapowaz> they don't give a damn about a single web, they just want a platform on which to bake money
  729. [22:48:35] <kapowaz> even with a whole TLD to themselves if it helps
  730. [22:48:39] <hober> Right; the structural problem there -- one which WHAT WG, the microformats community, the IETF, etc. don't suffer from -- is the Member-with-a-capital-M thing.
  731. [22:48:57] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  732. [22:48:59] <pnhChris> mmm.. baked money... i love when you get that golden brown.. then you let it sit on the sill and cool off
  733. [22:49:20] <kapowaz> aye, they're meritocracies
  734. [22:49:41] <kapowaz> whereas with the W3C you can basically buy your way in, regardless of your fitness for the purpose of being on such a WG
  735. [22:49:43] <boneill> you can't honestly blame everything wrong with the W3C on Microsoft ...
  736. [22:49:44] * tantek notices #whatwg
  737. [22:49:51] <kapowaz> I am most definitely not blaming microsoft
  738. [22:50:00] <tantek> boneill - you *can* but that doesn't mean you are accurate ;)
  739. [22:50:09] <boneill> ;)
  740. [22:50:09] <kapowaz> it's likely to be a whole bunch of names we've never heard of
  741. [22:50:22] <kapowaz> people working for companies like T-Mobile and Vodafone and whatever
  742. [22:51:01] <kapowaz> ah, now *this* is an excellent mashup...
  743. [22:51:13] <tantek> I wonder how work on new specs at W3C go if you had to first make your company's website(s) obey existing standards like HTML4 and CSS1.
  744. [22:51:15] <kapowaz> Public Enemy vs The BBC Cricket Theme
  745. [22:51:31] <hober> tantek: heh
  746. [22:51:34] <kapowaz> like that'd ever happen.
  747. [22:51:47] <tantek> imagine that nobody could propose a new XFoo standard if they didn't first make sure their existing website was 100% valid (X)HTML + CSS
  748. [22:51:51] <kapowaz> "oh wait, you're going to pay us *how* much? ah, you know what? I'll just pretend your site validates."
  749. [22:52:07] <tantek> or, let them propose but not vote
  750. [22:52:10] <kapowaz> you know, a friend of mine said something interesting the other day
  751. [22:52:24] <tantek> or, give companies whose sites validate 10 votes instead of 1
  752. [22:52:32] <kapowaz> if Google gave a higher pagerank to sites that validated, we'd have a validating web within a year
  753. [22:52:39] <tantek> hmmm...
  754. [22:52:44] <tantek> that's a very interesting idea
  755. [22:52:46] <kapowaz> or within <X>
  756. [22:52:57] <kapowaz> see, they'd never do it out of the goodness of their hearts
  757. [22:53:05] <kapowaz> but they'd definitely do it if the burner was under them
  758. [22:53:07] <tantek> Technorati *does* do a better / more accurate index of sites that validate FWIW.
  759. [22:53:15] <kapowaz> trouble is, Google wouldn't benefit from such a decision
  760. [22:53:19] <kapowaz> so they'd never do it
  761. [22:53:27] <tantek> that's false kapowaz
  762. [22:53:31] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
  763. [22:53:34] <kapowaz> no?
  764. [22:53:36] <tantek> Technorati certainly has benefitted from it
  765. [22:53:43] <tantek> valid code is easier to parse and index
  766. [22:53:48] <kapowaz> well that is true
  767. [22:53:51] <tantek> exactly
  768. [22:53:56] <tantek> same would be true for G
  769. [22:54:02] <kapowaz> but I meant in the sense of how it might affect their adwords sales
  770. [22:54:05] <tantek> or any other search engine
  771. [22:54:30] <kapowaz> who can guess at the politics of companies that extensively use search engine marketing?
  772. [22:54:47] <kapowaz> other than search engine marketeers
  773. [22:54:59] <kapowaz> an unwholesome thought.
  774. [22:55:44] <kapowaz> shit. I've run out of beer.
  775. [22:56:06] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  776. [22:59:33] <kapowaz> well, nice debating with you chaps.
  777. [22:59:41] <kapowaz> I'm going to hit the hay and watch Sopranos.
  778. [22:59:44] <kapowaz> toodle pip etc.
  779. [22:59:45] <tantek> hope it was helpful
  780. [22:59:55] <kapowaz> :)
  781. [23:00:18] <drewinthehead> night! i'm just off too.
  782. [23:06:27] * trav (n=chatzill@63.125.161.150) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  783. [23:06:35] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  784. [23:11:30] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73 [Firefox 1.5.0.7/2006090918]")
  785. [23:36:40] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=9949 * Tantek * (+28) made abbr prose more consistent with alt and area - no functional change
  786. [23:52:47] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ()
  787. [23:56:43] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 2.0/2006101023]")

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