IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-11-01
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:58:45] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [01:22:35] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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[[history-of-the-web]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/history-of-the-web * Tantek * (+216) moved from [[history-of-microformats]]
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[[history-of-markup]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/history-of-markup * Tantek * (+567) moved from [[history-of-microformats]]
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[[history-of-the-web]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-of-the-web&diff=0&oldid=9929 * Tantek * (+72)
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[[history-of-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-of-microformats&diff=0&oldid=9930 * Tantek * (-250)
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[[history-of-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-of-microformats&diff=0&oldid=9931 * Tantek * (+29)
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[[history-of-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-of-microformats&diff=0&oldid=9932 * Tantek * (-3)
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[[Template:disambig]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:disambig * Tantek * (+379)
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[[Template:disambig]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:disambig&diff=0&oldid=9933 * Tantek * (-1)
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[[history]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history&diff=0&oldid=9934 * Tantek * (+11)
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[[Template:disambig]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:disambig&diff=0&oldid=9935 * Tantek * (-14)
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[[Template:disambig]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:disambig&diff=0&oldid=9936 * Tantek * (+41)
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[[Template:disambig]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:disambig&diff=0&oldid=9938 * Tantek * (+0)
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- [03:01:01] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [04:01:06] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [05:10:26] <KevinMarks>
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinmarks/285384771/
- [05:22:40] <pnhChris>
nice
- [05:22:53] <tantek>
very nice
- [05:23:45] <pnhChris>
must be a new month... the mailman reminders have started rolling in ;)
- [05:27:05] <KevinMarks>
I'd blog it but flickr and blogger aren't talking
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- [05:50:09] <mfbot>
[[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=9939 * Chris Messina * (+163) added last.fm
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- [05:55:46] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [05:57:08] <KevinMarks>
it's NYT Mike
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- [06:20:02] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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- [07:47:41] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [08:19:40] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [08:37:50] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [09:02:50] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
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- [09:20:03] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [10:15:53] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [10:40:13] <drewinthehead>
greetings people of the internets
- [10:43:20] <trovster>
How'd you get in to my internet... the security guards must be asleep again!
- [10:43:38] <kapowaz>
I thought I'd downloaded my internet safely to the desktop!
- [10:43:51] <kapowaz>
what you do!
- [10:44:00] <trovster>
kapowaz: You shouldn't joke about that...
- [10:44:29] <trovster>
There is a site doing that (based on topics)
- [10:45:22] <drewinthehead>
i have cunning ways and means
- [10:47:42] <KevinMarks>
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinmarks/285384771/ - microformat pumpkin
- [10:48:15] <KevinMarks>
I trust you UK chaps can come up with a microformat Guy Fawkes
- [10:48:31] <KevinMarks>
or logo picked out in fireworks
- [10:56:52] <kapowaz>
oh god.
- [10:57:17] <kapowaz>
hmm, a microformats guy fawkes.
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- [10:57:37] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [10:57:55] <kapowaz>
well I have just made a PSD version of the logo, and I was intending to start mucking around with it.
- [11:10:45] <julianstahnke>
hello, I have a question: in hCards, can I do this? <a href="COUNTRY" class="adr country-name"> COUNTRY</a> ?
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- [11:11:45] <julianstahnke>
it works in the tails Firefox extension but I'm not sure if I can put adr and country-name on the same element or if they need to be nested
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- [11:16:16] <trovster>
'Note that all the properties in adr are singular properties, and thus the first descendant element with that class should take effect' ... first descendant, so it seems like it's incorrect. re: http://microformats.org/wiki/adr#Format
- [11:21:27] <julianstahnke>
okay, cheers
- [11:35:39] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
- [11:35:39] <jibot>
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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- [11:40:17] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [12:01:39] <jibot>
Cloud is http://www.johnbreslin.com/
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- [12:19:46] <drewinthehead>
last.fm could use some microformats love
- [12:20:11] <briansuda>
they have hCal
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- [12:27:50] <boneill>
and events stuff iirc
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- [12:32:04] <drewinthehead>
no hcards or xfn, as far as i've spotted :(
- [12:32:33] <briansuda>
no, not yet...
- [12:38:07] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
- [12:38:07] <jibot>
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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- [12:41:00] <drewinthehead>
ah, they're only 2 miles up the road ... i could go badger them!
- [12:41:04] <drewinthehead>
;)
- [12:41:25] <briansuda>
well as they get the good press from hCal, they will realise that they want more
- [12:43:23] <drewinthehead>
so you're saying a bat probably isn't required?
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- [12:57:25] <julianstahnke>
I'm just working on the hCard :D
- [12:57:30] <julianstahnke>
for last.fm, that is
- [12:57:45] <julianstahnke>
and we have hCards for the venues
- [12:58:24] <julianstahnke>
look: http://www.staging.last.fm/venue/8777985
- [12:58:31] <julianstahnke>
oh, sorry, remove the staging part
- [13:03:02] <drewinthehead>
hah .. ace, julianstahnke
- [13:03:05] <drewinthehead>
taking a look
- [13:05:53] <drewinthehead>
good stuff. is rel="friend" for links to friends' profiles a possibility at any point?
- [13:06:12] <julianstahnke>
at some point
- [13:06:12] <julianstahnke>
I'm rather busy with other stuff
- [13:06:34] <drewinthehead>
of course
- [13:06:54] <drewinthehead>
... and a pony, please.
- [13:06:56] <drewinthehead>
;)
- [13:06:58] <julianstahnke>
;)
- [13:07:17] <julianstahnke>
btw, are you the guy at the london microformats meeting that talked first?
- [13:07:31] <julianstahnke>
about the semantic web with capital/lowercase letters?
- [13:09:20] <drewinthehead>
nope, i'm the guy who talked last, about APIs
- [13:09:37] <julianstahnke>
ah
- [13:09:42] <julianstahnke>
that was very interesting!
- [13:10:22] <drewinthehead>
:) the guy on first was Norm
- [13:10:26] * remi (n=remi@csf-127.cegep-ste-foy.qc.ca) has joined #microformats
- [13:10:26] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
- [13:10:26] <julianstahnke>
we thought about implementing that in our add event form, but it's not possible because we don't have fields that directly map to properties
- [13:10:52] <drewinthehead>
yes, that's one hurdle
- [13:25:12] * daggi (n=chrisada@80-193-38-68.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [13:25:21] <daggi>
hi all
- [13:26:12] <daggi>
anyone here use hear of using microformats in structuring papers for large meetings, like council meetings where large numbers of people vote on issues?
- [13:26:53] <briansuda>
there has been a few proposals in the past, but i don't think there is anything unique about your situation
- [13:27:10] <briansuda>
there is work on a Chat format, there are vevents, and hcards for people
- [13:27:32] <briansuda>
you can vote using rel-voteLinks and use #item1
- [13:27:38] <briansuda>
to backreference it
- [13:28:18] <drewinthehead>
and good old html lists
- [13:28:19] <daggi>
i was thinking along the lines of council meetings at my university
- [13:28:36] <daggi>
and putting together a 'motion-matic' of sorts
- [13:28:52] <briansuda>
so this is BEFORE the meeting. not after
- [13:28:56] <daggi>
yeah
- [13:29:18] <briansuda>
well you can use hReviews without a rating
- [13:29:20] <daggi>
providing a way to guide the structure motions, to make the process easier
- [13:29:28] <briansuda>
then 'review' and person, place, event, thing
- [13:29:37] <briansuda>
those could be each adgenda item
- [13:29:52] <briansuda>
hCard for any speakers, staff members etc
- [13:29:59] <daggi>
yeah
- [13:30:08] <briansuda>
vevents for each sections...
- [13:30:16] <briansuda>
roll-call, items, open questions, etc
- [13:30:39] <drewinthehead>
what does the document look like at the moment?
- [13:30:45] <daggi>
so breaking the parts of ameeting into smaller, chunks of a meeting dicussing specific issues?
- [13:30:56] <daggi>
let me find an example online
- [13:31:06] * daggi ruffles through open windows
- [13:31:36] <briansuda>
the W3C uses RDF to control their meeting minutes. You could adapt their structure using existing Microformats (http://www.w3.org/2004/02/agenda)
- [13:32:31] <daggi>
this page has a few motions from a recent student council meeting - http://www.uwsu.com/DisplayPage.asp?pageid=20221
- [13:33:20] <daggi>
at present, students write them in word, without really understanding what the various parts of a motion actually are
- [13:33:32] <daggi>
and often end up proposing fairly bonkers ideas
- [13:33:42] <daggi>
that end up being policy
- [13:34:17] <daggi>
the quality of debate doesn't end up being all that good, and few people have access to relevant facts
- [13:35:30] <daggi>
so I'm toying with the idea of using microformats to guide people through the process, and eventually provide a repository of successful model motions for organisations to follow
- [13:35:56] <briansuda>
it is a good idea, but i think there are larger user problems
- [13:36:07] <briansuda>
you could simply use a WORD template and solve alot of the problems
- [13:36:07] <daggi>
briansuda: putting it lightly :)
- [13:37:04] <daggi>
briansuda: true
- [13:37:26] <drewinthehead>
has anyone researched marking up polls?
- [13:37:36] <drewinthehead>
could be related
- [13:37:39] * briansuda vaguely remembers something
- [13:38:06] * daggi looks through wikipedia
- [13:38:09] <daggi>
oops
- [13:38:16] <daggi>
microformats wiki
- [13:38:23] <briansuda>
your proposals, look just like <ol> and <h1> with proposer (hCards) and seconder (hCard)
- [13:38:30] <briansuda>
and that is xoxo
- [13:39:18] <daggi>
xoxo?
- [13:39:55] <briansuda>
http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
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- [13:40:18] <daggi>
thanks
- [13:45:08] <daggi>
briansuda: xoxo looks like an ideal starting point for what I'm getting at - thanks for the headsup
- [13:45:14] <briansuda>
not a prob
- [13:45:33] <briansuda>
usually there is already a combination of Microformats which solve a big chunk of issues
- [13:45:54] <briansuda>
there is also lots of software that can import/export XOXO into arrays
- [13:46:12] <briansuda>
then you could 'auto-build' your entire agenda, issues, dependancies etc
- [13:48:25] <daggi>
yeah
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- [13:54:23] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [15:00:23] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [15:07:57] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [15:19:17] <julianstahnke>
for those who are interested, we just added hCards on profile pages and fixed some issues with the other microformat stuff (at Last.fm). If someone wants to have a play ... :)
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- [15:35:35] <drewinthehead>
awesome, julianstahnke
- [15:35:36] <drewinthehead>
http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://www.last.fm/user/drewinthehead/
- [15:36:11] <julianstahnke>
yeah, we're going to have your city in there soon as well
- [15:36:58] <julianstahnke>
if any of you guys has an idea what to add, no matter where, just tell me or write a mail to julian@last.fm or gimme a shout
- [15:39:16] <drewinthehead>
will do
- [15:39:26] <julianstahnke>
cheers :)
- [15:39:31] <trovster>
heh, registered today ;)
- [15:39:47] <trovster>
http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://www.last.fm/user/trovster/
- [15:40:11] <julianstahnke>
woa, wait ... could we use that very URL to check user details for sign ups?
- [15:40:25] <julianstahnke>
like, the user inputs his URL and we get the hCard from it?
- [15:40:57] <drewinthehead>
sure
- [15:41:33] <drewinthehead>
well, that's running a php library called hkit - you give it a url and it returns an array of values
- [15:41:49] <trovster>
Where is that hCard fetch details to fill in a form, drewinthehead ?
- [15:42:04] <julianstahnke>
that was giving me 404s yesterday
- [15:42:22] <drewinthehead>
autocomplete demo is here: http://allinthehead.com/demo/autocomplete/
- [15:42:56] <drewinthehead>
and the 'pick a profile' one is here: http://allinthehead.com/demo/hkit-signup/
- [15:43:10] <drewinthehead>
and that server is running like a dog (grr @ Textdrive)
- [15:43:36] <mfbot>
[[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9940 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2311)
- [15:44:03] <julianstahnke>
all in the head: 404 Not Found
- [15:44:07] <mfbot>
[[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9941 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2)
- [15:44:24] <drewinthehead>
really? woah
- [15:44:41] <julianstahnke>
it's all giving me 404s after submitting the form
- [15:44:55] <drewinthehead>
ah, don't submit the form :)
- [15:45:18] <julianstahnke>
?
- [15:45:22] <julianstahnke>
so what do I do... ?
- [15:45:35] <julianstahnke>
ah!
- [15:45:37] <trovster>
It just shows the population
- [15:45:38] <mfbot>
[[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9942 * ChristopheDucamp * (+60) Laughing Squid Calendar -
- [15:45:39] <drewinthehead>
both are just demos of the concept of asking for a url up front, and then using ajax to go fetch the rest of the details
- [15:46:02] <drewinthehead>
(and both a really rough, technically!)
- [15:46:29] <mfbot>
[[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9943 * ChristopheDucamp * (+67) Scott Reynen -
- [15:47:40] <mfbot>
[[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9944 * ChristopheDucamp * (+75) Université de Bath -
- [15:50:11] <mfbot>
[[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9945 * ChristopheDucamp * (+275) Web Essentials -
- [15:51:42] <mfbot>
[[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9946 * ChristopheDucamp * (-147) Marie-Caroline Lanfranchi -
- [15:52:18] <mfbot>
[[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=9947 * ChristopheDucamp * (+151) Kingsley Joseph -
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- [16:27:33] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [16:29:58] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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- [16:56:30] <trav>
Anybody know if there's a way, in a DTD, to explicitly disallow a particular character within a certain element?
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- [17:01:43] <jibot>
qid is David Osolkowski (http://wadny.com/)
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- [18:09:42] <jibot>
veeliam is William Lawrence of Quiddities Dev out of Santa Cruz and he does something at http://zaxbypass.com and here and there
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- [18:24:13] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [18:27:47] <KevinMarks>
http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/
- [18:28:00] <KevinMarks>
this really needs hCalendar support
- [18:28:06] <KevinMarks>
the xml is very clsoe
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- [18:52:28] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [18:55:22] <bewes1>
KevinMarks: I think that's on one of my todo lists somewhere
- [18:55:41] <bewes1>
timeline + map + hCalendar
- [18:55:46] <bewes1>
+ hCard
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- [18:56:21] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [18:58:26] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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- [19:15:53] <KevinMarks>
very logo-like: http://www.flickr.com/photos/historyanorak/280106942/
- [19:16:02] <KevinMarks>
or am I getting apophenia?
- [19:16:13] * Phae looks.
- [19:16:22] <Phae>
It is.
- [19:31:59] <kapowaz>
what's apophenia?
- [19:32:33] <kingryan>
ask a dictionary :D
- [19:34:01] <kapowaz>
I just did
- [19:34:04] <kapowaz>
and it didn't know!
- [19:34:07] <kapowaz>
hence why I asked :)
- [19:34:22] <kapowaz>
evening btw Phae
- [19:34:34] <Phae>
hi
- [19:34:35] <kingryan>
ask wikipedia, then :D
- [19:34:42] <kingryan>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
- [19:34:58] <kapowaz>
"Apophenia is the experience of seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data"
- [19:35:01] <kapowaz>
I like that.
- [19:35:12] <kapowaz>
what a rorschach test is for eh
- [19:42:33] <Atamido>
Isn't that what that guy in A Beautiful Mind had?
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- [19:43:14] <Phae>
doesn't everyone have it a bit... it's more unusual not to see any patterns ever
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- [19:50:36] <kapowaz>
I thought that was the point
- [19:50:51] <kapowaz>
like, autistics can't see anything or something like that
- [19:51:05] <kapowaz>
I could be mistaken.
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- [19:58:32] <mlinksva>
Atamido, john nash had schizophrenia. and "a beautiful mind" is the worst movie ever
- [19:59:02] <Atamido>
Ouch.
- [19:59:29] <Atamido>
I liked it, but I did far prefer I Am Sam, which I think should have won the awards instead.
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- [20:05:53] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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- [20:17:00] <cgriego>
does the tm_dialog -p option accept any plist or only xml?
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- [20:18:44] <cgriego>
whoops, wrong channel
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- [20:23:20] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [20:56:31] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples&diff=0&oldid=9948 * Bob Jonkman * (+7) References to People and Organizations -
- [21:04:31] <pnhChris>
so, how many lashes with a wet noodle might one get for publishing "hatom" sans entry dates of any form (thus invalid)
- [21:07:11] <drewinthehead>
i guess it's fine, it's all valid html, right? is it any less valid than publishing without any class names that happen to coexist in the hatom spec?
- [21:13:32] <pnhChris>
sure
- [21:14:40] <drewinthehead>
it's just not hatom, because hatom requires dates
- [21:14:57] <pnhChris>
its just a comments list on a user page that to this point i don't think any relevent date information is provided (don't ask)... but it would still benefit form the structure + subscribability
- [21:15:10] <pnhChris>
well
- [21:16:46] <pnhChris>
its "not hatom" but how harmful is it to claim it is (in pratice).. i guess is my question
- [21:17:39] <pnhChris>
and it'll be valid xhtml.. with good hcards and other content.. just "invalid" hatom
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- [21:20:51] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [21:21:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [21:23:44] <drewinthehead>
is there such a thing, in the context of an xhtml page
- [21:23:55] <Frederic>
Wow, next BarCamp Paris is at Google's
- [21:24:11] <drewinthehead>
it's not like you're publishing some kind of hatom document
- [21:24:55] <pnhChris>
i duuno i guess
- [21:25:29] <pnhChris>
its part phlisophical and part practical/how consumers deal
- [21:29:49] <drewinthehead>
i'm not sure really ... it's a bit abstract
- [21:40:27] <pnhChris>
we'll see.. it might be moot if i can dig up a date somewhere anyway
- [21:41:14] <julianstahnke>
is there a 'gender' property for hCards? I couldn't find one ... either I'm blind or someone forgot that part
- [21:41:56] <julianstahnke>
and how do I get the bot to announce where I'm working and stuff? :)
- [21:44:33] <kapowaz>
julianstahnke: ?def
- [21:44:37] <kapowaz>
I think
- [21:44:43] <tantek>
?help
- [21:44:48] <julianstahnke>
?help
- [21:44:50] <beNson>
?help
- [21:44:51] <beNson>
:D
- [21:44:53] <julianstahnke>
hm
- [21:44:58] <kapowaz>
does that even do anything?
- [21:45:02] <julianstahnke>
nope
- [21:45:08] <kapowaz>
I'm sure I've tried it before and been met with silence
- [21:45:10] <kapowaz>
?def kapowaz
- [21:45:11] <beNson>
I got a query
- [21:45:14] <KevinMarks>
it sends you a pm
- [21:45:16] <kapowaz>
is jibot working?
- [21:45:19] <jibot>
kapowaz is Ben Darlow, a web developer in London who writes stuff at http://kapowaz.net/
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- [21:45:24] <kapowaz>
ah yes it is
- [21:45:37] <tantek>
julianstahnke - you have to be "identified" on freenode
- [21:45:42] <kapowaz>
hmm
- [21:45:43] <kapowaz>
you know
- [21:45:46] <julianstahnke>
woa, how do I do that?
- [21:45:52] <kapowaz>
I'm *sure* I put http://www.kapowaz.net/ in that definition
- [21:45:57] <kapowaz>
does jibot strip out the www. ?
- [21:46:06] <KevinMarks>
do ?learn julianstahnke is a microformats fan
- [21:46:14] * kapowaz is protesting against all this anti-www prefixing
- [21:46:28] <KevinMarks>
no, jibot only parses for 'and' '&' and 'is'
- [21:46:35] <tantek>
kapowaz - do you get a cut of "www." usage?
- [21:46:38] <julianstahnke>
?learn julianstahnke works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
- [21:46:38] <jibot>
I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
- [21:46:56] <kapowaz>
yes.
- [21:46:59] <tantek>
http://no-www.org/
- [21:46:59] <kapowaz>
five dollah per go.
- [21:47:03] <kapowaz>
I know about that
- [21:47:07] <kapowaz>
but I still don't buy it
- [21:47:15] <kapowaz>
for starters, domain names are multipurpose
- [21:47:16] <julianstahnke>
?learn julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
- [21:47:16] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
- [21:47:20] <julianstahnke>
yeah
- [21:47:24] <drewinthehead>
awesome
- [21:47:26] <KevinMarks>
yay for julian
- [21:47:33] <julianstahnke>
thanks guys :)
- [21:47:35] <kapowaz>
\o/
- [21:47:44] <tantek>
and as far as gender in hCard - you can do some of that with honorific prefix
- [21:47:53] <kapowaz>
I'm with TBL anyway, I think web.foo.com would have been better
- [21:47:58] * KevinMarks recruits julian to help think about media-info
- [21:48:04] <kapowaz>
but I think there's more symmetry to 'www.kapowaz.net' than 'kapowaz.net'
- [21:48:10] <julianstahnke>
woa, is that what it sounds like?
- [21:48:11] <tantek>
waste of 4 bytes
- [21:48:18] <kapowaz>
it's like, you know that ornamentation you see in menus?
- [21:48:25] <kapowaz>
what do they call it? the wood ornaments or whatever
- [21:48:28] <kapowaz>
it's like that
- [21:48:35] <julianstahnke>
some people at last.fm would really like to mark up albums and tracks and stuff with appropriate microformats
- [21:48:37] <kapowaz>
-oO something Oo-
- [21:48:51] <KevinMarks>
ten.zawopah.kapawaz.net is even more symmetric
- [21:49:01] <kapowaz>
of course, the fact that I got www.kapowaz.net printed on all my business cards is merely a footnote.
- [21:49:20] <kapowaz>
i.am.not.related.to.derek.powazek.kapowaz.net
- [21:49:21] <KevinMarks>
your urls are all already great tagspaces
- [21:49:27] <tantek>
"www." is so web 1.0
- [21:49:37] <kapowaz>
it is also web 3.0
- [21:49:40] <kapowaz>
I am skipping a generation.
- [21:49:50] <KevinMarks>
web2.kapowaz.com ?
- [21:49:51] <tantek>
nah it's gone. like a vestigial tail.
- [21:50:00] <tantek>
no evolutionary need for it.
- [21:50:08] <KevinMarks>
coccyx.kapowaz.com ?
- [21:50:30] <kapowaz>
I don't have .com
- [21:50:39] <beNson>
kapowaz: What do you mean by "domain names are multi purpose"?
- [21:50:40] <kapowaz>
my crazy friend Fraser Campbell registered it
- [21:50:41] <kapowaz>
the swine
- [21:51:05] <kapowaz>
okay, well my personal domain name is a poor example, but for argument's sake let's consider my gaming clan - "HellJumpers"
- [21:51:15] <kapowaz>
we've got helljumpers.net (and .com, although it's essentially defunct)
- [21:51:30] <kapowaz>
I have created a fair few records for subdomains, each of which has a different purpose
- [21:51:35] * julianstahnke just found the media-info-brainstorming page :o
- [21:51:39] <kapowaz>
we have a teamspeak (voice comms) server
- [21:51:45] <kapowaz>
we also have a dedicated game host server
- [21:52:05] <kapowaz>
so... where should helljumpers.net point to in this case?
- [21:52:08] <kapowaz>
if www. is the website
- [21:52:13] <kapowaz>
and teamspeak. is the TS server
- [21:52:19] <kapowaz>
and dods. is the day of defeat server
- [21:52:24] <kapowaz>
where does the plain ol' .net go?
- [21:52:34] <kapowaz>
conundrum!
- [21:52:45] <kapowaz>
as it happens I can't remember off the top of my head :)
- [21:52:47] <beNson>
considering you put an http:// in front, which defaults to port 80 i'd say it's a request for a website .. ;)
- [21:52:50] <kapowaz>
but I think it points to the dedicated server
- [21:52:58] <kapowaz>
that'd make no difference though
- [21:53:07] <kapowaz>
if the IP address was pointing to another server then it'd not help
- [21:53:23] <kapowaz>
the wrong server would receive a request on port 80 and it'd go "Meh? I'm a gameserver. Go away"
- [21:54:01] <beNson>
yes, but then the user is at fault..
- [21:54:04] <kapowaz>
why?
- [21:54:05] <kingryan>
kapowaz: all of those services run on different tcp/ip ports
- [21:54:14] <kapowaz>
kingryan: and on entirely different servers
- [21:54:21] <kapowaz>
you think I'd run a gameserver on a box set up for web usage?
- [21:54:26] <kapowaz>
or vice versa?
- [21:54:33] <kapowaz>
do you have any idea how much bandwidth a gameserver consumes?
- [21:54:38] <kapowaz>
I'd be broke
- [21:54:43] <kingryan>
but do jelljumpers and www.helljumpers run on different servers?
- [21:54:56] <kapowaz>
as it happens... they both point to the same IP :)
- [21:55:08] <beNson>
when I type "http://example.org/" i very much expect the result to be an html-file (even though other formats may be transfered with http)
- [21:55:11] <kapowaz>
but I don't advertise the one without www. for the reason that one day, conceivably, it might not be used for that
- [21:55:13] <kingryan>
and both serve the same content?
- [21:55:30] <kapowaz>
I've set up apache to redirect the non-www to the www
- [21:55:36] <kapowaz>
same as on kapowaz.net
- [21:55:54] <beNson>
I mean what kind of moron would set up a game server on port 80?
- [21:55:58] <kapowaz>
heh
- [21:56:08] <kapowaz>
you're confusing me beNson
- [21:56:25] <kapowaz>
stop thinking of them as websites and start thinking of them as aliases for IP addresses
- [21:56:44] <kapowaz>
if helljumpers.net = 10.0.0.1 and www.helljumpers.net = 10.0.0.2 then you're not going to get the same result for both
- [21:56:57] <kapowaz>
and you wouldn't run a webserver on your gameserver just in case
- [21:57:12] <beNson>
the domain name is an alias for an ip address, an URI is not
- [21:57:14] <kapowaz>
anyway. I have ranted overlong. My beer warms.
- [21:57:37] <kapowaz>
true, but http://helljumpers.net/ is only a URI by some vague abstraction
- [21:57:47] <beNson>
and when you type in "example.org" into your browser it defaults to "http://example.org" which is an URI
- [21:57:51] <kapowaz>
in the same sense that http://localhost/ is a URI
- [21:57:56] * tantek wonders what no-www has to do with microformats
- [21:58:02] <kapowaz>
very little!
- [21:58:08] <tantek>
perhaps you have mistaken this channel for microurls?
- [21:58:10] <tantek>
;)
- [21:58:12] <kapowaz>
but I have noticed it as a trend lately that MF advocates tend to strip it off
- [21:58:18] <beNson>
;)
- [21:58:30] <tantek>
kapowaz, it is much broader (and earlier) trend than microformats
- [21:58:34] <kingryan>
correlation != causation
- [21:58:35] <kapowaz>
Drew, Norm and Jeremy all advertised their sites sans-www at the recent MF meetup in London
- [21:58:40] <kapowaz>
aye
- [21:58:47] <kapowaz>
very true.
- [21:58:48] <tantek>
kapowaz, you are just now noticing this?
- [21:58:53] <drewinthehead>
that's coz we're too kool for skool.
- [21:59:00] <tantek>
drewinthehead++
- [21:59:01] <beNson>
yeah .. Norm made quite some fuzz about it :P
- [21:59:04] <kapowaz>
well, you've not had www on yours for ages have you tantek?
- [21:59:16] <tantek>
right
- [21:59:24] <kapowaz>
and John Gruber doesn't either
- [21:59:27] <tantek>
in the 80/20 case, no www is necessary
- [21:59:34] * tantek attempts to tie in microformats philosophy
- [21:59:43] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-235-106.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [21:59:48] <kapowaz>
the thing is, enough sites *don't* handle no-www that I'd not assume it to work
- [21:59:48] <drewinthehead>
just yesterday i used mod_rewrite to force redirection of www to . on one of my sites
- [21:59:57] <kapowaz>
personally I think it should be a UA thing
- [22:00:00] <tantek>
kapowaz - i assume those sites have lame admins
- [22:00:05] <kapowaz>
very true
- [22:00:11] <kapowaz>
but all the same, it doesn't help the user much
- [22:00:17] <kingryan>
www.microformats.org and *.microformats.com are redirected to microformats.org :D
- [22:00:19] <tantek>
the market picks better sites
- [22:00:20] <kapowaz>
like just earlier this evening, I typed ww.ebay.co.uk
- [22:00:22] <tantek>
that helps the user
- [22:00:28] <kapowaz>
try ww.google.com
- [22:00:31] <kapowaz>
and compare
- [22:01:03] <kapowaz>
somehow I doubt the market is excluding ebay because of this error
- [22:01:10] <drewinthehead>
i often type addresses without a www and find they've not even bothered to configure that
- [22:01:26] <drewinthehead>
which is the worst crime
- [22:01:27] <kapowaz>
like I said, I reckon it should be a UA feature; if the no-www host doesn't work, it should try it
- [22:01:44] <kapowaz>
(with www)
- [22:02:16] <kapowaz>
I agree it is lame when sysadmins don't bother to handle it, but then there are a lot of websites out there being run by very lame sysadmins.
- [22:02:34] <beNson>
true :)
- [22:02:47] <kapowaz>
like, say, idiots who don't back up their ~/www dir before reimaging their server
- [22:02:50] <kapowaz>
COUGH.
- [22:03:02] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-235-106.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:03:44] <beNson>
i get the sensation someone in this very channel made this mistake?
- [22:03:45] <kapowaz>
and there was silence.
- [22:03:48] <kapowaz>
yes
- [22:03:49] <kapowaz>
me
- [22:03:53] <beNson>
;)
- [22:04:08] <kapowaz>
http://www.kapowaz.net/derailed.html
- [22:04:12] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-235-106.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [22:04:34] <drewinthehead>
if you're leaving it up to the UA to guess, where does that end?
- [22:04:41] <drewinthehead>
how does the UA know what to guess?
- [22:05:10] <kapowaz>
well, a fairly simple rule: if a domain was attempted sans-www and it returns a host not found, try the same domain with www. at the start. If that doesn't work either, stop trying?
- [22:05:11] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [22:05:11] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [22:05:16] <kingryan>
UAs already guess
- [22:05:21] <drewinthehead>
if a .com doesn't resolve, should it try the .pl ?
- [22:06:02] <kapowaz>
well... no.
- [22:06:12] <kapowaz>
although I do think that IE does something like that
- [22:06:18] <kapowaz>
I'm sure
- [22:06:33] <beNson>
btw, I really liked your slides drew.. more image less text ;D
- [22:06:53] * kapowaz claps
- [22:07:04] <drewinthehead>
having predefined locations for stuff is bad ... take the /favicon.ico situation for example
- [22:07:13] <drewinthehead>
thanks beNson
- [22:07:46] <beNson>
you're welcome
- [22:07:46] <kapowaz>
well, this would be slightly different... it's only a single rule to check and see
- [22:07:56] <drewinthehead>
that was only a single rule too
- [22:08:00] <kapowaz>
after all, if domain.com failed, the user has nothing left to lose
- [22:08:05] <drewinthehead>
each rule is only a single rule when you add it
- [22:08:19] <kapowaz>
a fair point, although I think that one is a slightly different situation.
- [22:08:32] <kapowaz>
that's where you've already established a domain works and can be requested against
- [22:08:40] <kapowaz>
this is trying to even find the right address
- [22:08:52] <kapowaz>
and hey, if it fails after a second attempt, no big loss
- [22:09:11] <drewinthehead>
the only thing i think www is good for is cluing the user into the fact that the following words are a web address - and that only makes sense offline
- [22:09:14] <kingryan>
why not try www2.example.com?
- [22:09:15] * bear_afk is now known as bear
- [22:09:25] <kingryan>
or web.example.com?
- [22:09:30] <kapowaz>
because very few hosts use that
- [22:09:34] <kapowaz>
as I'm sure you know ;)
- [22:09:38] <kingryan>
I do know
- [22:09:46] <kapowaz>
as a proportion of all the websites out there, it would be a thousandth of a percent
- [22:09:49] <kapowaz>
if that
- [22:10:09] <kapowaz>
and truth be told, I imagine no-www hosts are also in the minority as far as the 'preferred' domain goes
- [22:10:16] <kingryan>
I also know that having the same content at multiple URLs causes difficulties for people who want to consume the data
- [22:10:22] <kapowaz>
but then this is about handling things gracefully for the user
- [22:10:32] <kapowaz>
that's easily handled with mod_rewrite
- [22:10:40] <drewinthehead>
lately, i've noted a lot of UK print ads going the no-www route
- [22:10:45] <kapowaz>
I have a rule that redirects any request to the same URL on the intended domain
- [22:10:58] <kingryan>
no its not, kapowaz, because the content still has two different identifiers
- [22:11:00] <drewinthehead>
British Airways use just 'ba.com'
- [22:11:19] <kapowaz>
hang on
- [22:11:23] <kapowaz>
how?
- [22:11:27] <kapowaz>
if only one is ever published?
- [22:11:29] * julianstahnke_ (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
- [22:11:32] <kapowaz>
and the user can only end up at one?
- [22:11:34] * kingryan notes that 'ba.com' redirects to 'http://www.britishairways.com/travel/globalgateway.jsp/global/public/en_'
- [22:11:46] <drewinthehead>
boo :(
- [22:11:51] <kapowaz>
aye
- [22:11:57] <kingryan>
but... they always redirect to www
- [22:12:10] <kingryan>
if you're going to use www.foo, *always* use it
- [22:12:16] <kingryan>
*always*
- [22:12:16] <kapowaz>
I'm lost then. What's the problem with that (other than the nastiness of the url)
- [22:12:18] <drewinthehead>
the point being, however, that the 'www' isn't so necessary as a visual clue in print ads any more
- [22:12:29] <kapowaz>
in print I agree it makes sense to drop it
- [22:12:35] <kingryan>
kapowaz: it's pointless, but if you're going to use it, be consistent
- [22:12:50] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
- [22:13:25] * drewinthehead is guilty of inconsistency in the past
- [22:13:31] <kapowaz>
I'm still not sure of the harm to the user, assuming we're not literally talking redirecting from one URI to another that appears unrelated
- [22:13:53] <kapowaz>
I mean, a user who types in ba.com is almost certainly going to know it means British Airways
- [22:14:13] <kapowaz>
if they typed ba.com and were expecting to go to BA Baracus's personal homepage, *then* they'd worry.
- [22:14:18] <kapowaz>
as would we all.
- [22:14:38] <kapowaz>
gulp
- [22:14:45] <kapowaz>
down to the last beer.
- [22:14:53] * beNson__ (i=beNson@pD953714B.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:16:01] * beNson__ (i=beNson@pD953714B.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #microformats
- [22:16:09] * beNson__ (i=beNson@pD953714B.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:16:31] <kapowaz>
o/
- [22:16:37] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [22:17:00] <kapowaz>
okay, one last thing on the no-www thing
- [22:17:14] <kapowaz>
if you're going to drop the www, *don't* go around sticking http:// on the front unless it's there for a purpose
- [22:17:35] <drewinthehead>
in print, you mean?
- [22:17:35] <kapowaz>
like, a functional purpose other than a "hey, this is a website!" purpose.
- [22:17:44] <kapowaz>
print, slides, wherever
- [22:17:58] <kapowaz>
if it's already a link then it's unnecessary
- [22:18:08] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
- [22:19:44] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
- [22:19:53] <kapowaz>
I've just thought of one other advantage to using www. though...
- [22:19:56] * julianstahnke_ (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
- [22:20:08] <kapowaz>
MSN Messenger automatically converts www.foo.com into a clickable link
- [22:20:12] <kapowaz>
but not foo.com
- [22:20:32] <kapowaz>
I imagine there are a number of programs and website parsers that do the same
- [22:20:46] <tantek>
as does Colloquy IRC client
- [22:21:19] <julianstahnke>
to be honest, I think foo.com would be a bit too generic to turn into a link
- [22:21:44] <kapowaz>
heh
- [22:21:47] <tantek>
I disagree - again, 80/20 case is that it is a URL
- [22:23:10] <kapowaz>
wonder why it never became a convention
- [22:23:19] <kapowaz>
I'm trying to think of a likely pattern that would be a false match
- [22:23:19] <hober>
FWIW, www.eventful.com redirects to eventful.com
- [22:23:33] <drewinthehead>
i don't see a lot of people referring to command.com these days
- [22:23:35] * beNson (i=beNson@pD9537D81.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
- [22:23:42] <kapowaz>
ah yes, file extensions
- [22:24:21] <kapowaz>
it'd be easy enough to only match a known set of TLDs though
- [22:25:25] <julianstahnke>
true. yeah, I think you're right
- [22:26:22] <kapowaz>
hooray
- [22:26:32] <kapowaz>
I have won my auction on ebay, after all that
- [22:26:38] <kapowaz>
Vintage 1940s IMPERIAL GOOD COMPANION T Typewriter
- [22:26:44] * kapowaz cheers
- [22:26:51] <kingryan>
now that's definitely off topic :D
- [22:26:56] <kapowaz>
I can finally get rid of this goddamned computer
- [22:27:29] <julianstahnke>
picture please ;)
- [22:27:47] <kapowaz>
http://www.g4.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/imp.jpg
- [22:28:03] <julianstahnke>
cool
- [22:28:41] <tantek>
does that typewriter do superscripted "th"s ?
- [22:28:46] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [22:29:38] <kapowaz>
hmm, I'm not sure
- [22:29:43] <kapowaz>
why?
- [22:30:02] <kapowaz>
it's okay, I only intend to use it for writing out ransom notes.
- [22:30:49] <KevinMarks>
not george bush's army servcie records?
- [22:31:23] <kapowaz>
no. those are done with Word 97
- [22:31:29] * kapowaz grins
- [22:31:41] <kapowaz>
hey, does anybody read Fake Steve's blog?
- [22:32:30] <kapowaz>
I just love it.
- [22:32:48] <kapowaz>
I know, I'm banging the off-topic drum like there's no tomorrow, because, well, for all I know there isn't one.
- [22:32:51] <kapowaz>
http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2006/10/good-luck-dvd-jon.html
- [22:37:50] <kapowaz>
whilst I'm on a roll... this is a good rebuttal to what TBL wrote about HTML the other day: http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/why-tim-berners-lee-is-wrong/
- [22:38:03] <kapowaz>
there was something disconcerting about it, and I couldn't put my finger on it.
- [22:38:13] <kapowaz>
that article does it in words that I failed to find.
- [22:38:18] <tantek>
that's a pretty harsh post title
- [22:39:01] <tantek>
and it completely misses the point
- [22:39:16] <tantek>
it's an XML-head that doesn't get that the Web has rejected the "XML Vision"
- [22:39:20] <tantek>
yawn
- [22:40:07] <kapowaz>
still, I think he's right to point out that TBL was pointing to a problem I can't say I've ever noticed
- [22:40:10] <hober>
this was a much better response to timbl etc.: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.w3c.miscellaneous/248
- [22:40:15] <kapowaz>
"The attempt to get the world to switch to XML, including quotes around attribute values and slashes in empty tags and namespaces all at once didn’t work."
- [22:40:23] <kapowaz>
really? it didn't? so, nobody's using XHTML?
- [22:40:45] <tantek>
kapowaz, the adoption has been poor at best for 100% valid XHTML
- [22:40:50] <kapowaz>
maybe if he meant nobody's using the correct XHTML content-type from the server he'd be right, but there's an awful lot of markup tagged as XHTML
- [22:40:52] <boneill>
namespaces :|
- [22:41:00] <tantek>
and nearly non-existent for XHTML as application/xhtml+xml
- [22:41:12] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:41:13] <kapowaz>
speaking pragmatically though... what does it matter?
- [22:41:16] <tantek>
most markup that claims to be XHTML is not valid XHTML
- [22:41:26] <tantek>
and yeah, namespaces are pretty much dead on the web
- [22:41:53] <tantek>
kapowaz, it matters if you care about the evolution of the Web
- [22:41:59] <tantek>
and who should be helping / driving the evolution
- [22:42:26] <kapowaz>
and who is driving that evolution?
- [22:42:28] <kapowaz>
the W3C?
- [22:42:35] <kapowaz>
the lights might have been on, but...
- [22:42:46] <boneill>
semantic web! :P
- [22:42:49] <hober>
kapowaz: you should read that hixie email I linked to
- [22:42:49] * Whafro (n=alter@65.107.196.194.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [22:42:54] <kapowaz>
hober: ok
- [22:44:35] <tantek>
indeed - hixie's response is much more clueful than that other blog post.
- [22:45:02] <kapowaz>
there was some in that blog post I found myself nodding to, call me uninformed if you will.
- [22:45:35] <kapowaz>
you'd think TBL was living in some parallel universe where browsers didn't handle badly formed markup well
- [22:46:02] <kapowaz>
actually no, that's not true
- [22:46:06] <kapowaz>
I take that back
- [22:46:11] <KevinMarks>
sam ruby got him there
- [22:46:13] <hober>
Ultimately, I think the *technical* problems of recent W3C spec work (FSVO 'recent', heh) are generally manifestations of underlying *procedural* and *structural* problems with the W3C and its process
- [22:46:34] <kapowaz>
certainly I agree with criticism related to things like XForms and XHTML2
- [22:46:48] <kapowaz>
those have always seemed like pie in the sky to me
- [22:46:54] <hober>
WHAT WG isn't just doing better spec work; they're doing better spec work because their structure & process are more reasonable
- [22:47:19] <kapowaz>
but then is that surprising?
- [22:47:50] <kapowaz>
I forget who it was who wrote it - was it Eric Meyer? - but somebody pointed out that the W3C's working groups are largely consisted of people whose interests are quite mercenary
- [22:48:00] <kapowaz>
mobile phone service providers, for instance
- [22:48:25] <kapowaz>
they don't give a damn about a single web, they just want a platform on which to bake money
- [22:48:35] <kapowaz>
even with a whole TLD to themselves if it helps
- [22:48:39] <hober>
Right; the structural problem there -- one which WHAT WG, the microformats community, the IETF, etc. don't suffer from -- is the Member-with-a-capital-M thing.
- [22:48:57] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
- [22:48:59] <pnhChris>
mmm.. baked money... i love when you get that golden brown.. then you let it sit on the sill and cool off
- [22:49:20] <kapowaz>
aye, they're meritocracies
- [22:49:41] <kapowaz>
whereas with the W3C you can basically buy your way in, regardless of your fitness for the purpose of being on such a WG
- [22:49:43] <boneill>
you can't honestly blame everything wrong with the W3C on Microsoft ...
- [22:49:44] * tantek notices #whatwg
- [22:49:51] <kapowaz>
I am most definitely not blaming microsoft
- [22:50:00] <tantek>
boneill - you *can* but that doesn't mean you are accurate ;)
- [22:50:09] <boneill>
;)
- [22:50:09] <kapowaz>
it's likely to be a whole bunch of names we've never heard of
- [22:50:22] <kapowaz>
people working for companies like T-Mobile and Vodafone and whatever
- [22:51:01] <kapowaz>
ah, now *this* is an excellent mashup...
- [22:51:13] <tantek>
I wonder how work on new specs at W3C go if you had to first make your company's website(s) obey existing standards like HTML4 and CSS1.
- [22:51:15] <kapowaz>
Public Enemy vs The BBC Cricket Theme
- [22:51:31] <hober>
tantek: heh
- [22:51:34] <kapowaz>
like that'd ever happen.
- [22:51:47] <tantek>
imagine that nobody could propose a new XFoo standard if they didn't first make sure their existing website was 100% valid (X)HTML + CSS
- [22:51:51] <kapowaz>
"oh wait, you're going to pay us *how* much? ah, you know what? I'll just pretend your site validates."
- [22:52:07] <tantek>
or, let them propose but not vote
- [22:52:10] <kapowaz>
you know, a friend of mine said something interesting the other day
- [22:52:24] <tantek>
or, give companies whose sites validate 10 votes instead of 1
- [22:52:32] <kapowaz>
if Google gave a higher pagerank to sites that validated, we'd have a validating web within a year
- [22:52:39] <tantek>
hmmm...
- [22:52:44] <tantek>
that's a very interesting idea
- [22:52:46] <kapowaz>
or within <X>
- [22:52:57] <kapowaz>
see, they'd never do it out of the goodness of their hearts
- [22:53:05] <kapowaz>
but they'd definitely do it if the burner was under them
- [22:53:07] <tantek>
Technorati *does* do a better / more accurate index of sites that validate FWIW.
- [22:53:15] <kapowaz>
trouble is, Google wouldn't benefit from such a decision
- [22:53:19] <kapowaz>
so they'd never do it
- [22:53:27] <tantek>
that's false kapowaz
- [22:53:31] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
- [22:53:34] <kapowaz>
no?
- [22:53:36] <tantek>
Technorati certainly has benefitted from it
- [22:53:43] <tantek>
valid code is easier to parse and index
- [22:53:48] <kapowaz>
well that is true
- [22:53:51] <tantek>
exactly
- [22:53:56] <tantek>
same would be true for G
- [22:54:02] <kapowaz>
but I meant in the sense of how it might affect their adwords sales
- [22:54:05] <tantek>
or any other search engine
- [22:54:30] <kapowaz>
who can guess at the politics of companies that extensively use search engine marketing?
- [22:54:47] <kapowaz>
other than search engine marketeers
- [22:54:59] <kapowaz>
an unwholesome thought.
- [22:55:44] <kapowaz>
shit. I've run out of beer.
- [22:56:06] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
- [22:59:33] <kapowaz>
well, nice debating with you chaps.
- [22:59:41] <kapowaz>
I'm going to hit the hay and watch Sopranos.
- [22:59:44] <kapowaz>
toodle pip etc.
- [22:59:45] <tantek>
hope it was helpful
- [22:59:55] <kapowaz>
:)
- [23:00:18] <drewinthehead>
night! i'm just off too.
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- [23:36:40] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=9949 * Tantek * (+28) made abbr prose more consistent with alt and area - no functional change
- [23:52:47] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ()
- [23:56:43] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 2.0/2006101023]")
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