IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-11-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:33] * bear is now known as bear_mtg
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  4. [00:15:06] <mfbot> [[microsummary-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=microsummary-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+658) microsummary-brainstorming moved to page-summary-formats
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  8. [00:23:07] <tantek> sigh - more time spent documenting flaws in bad ideas
  9. [00:28:32] <mfbot> [[page-summary-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=9958 * Tantek * (+2112) rescoped page to a generic page-summary-formats page and documented pre-existing meta description page summary format and flaws in both pre-existing formats
  10. [00:29:23] <mfbot> [[microsummary]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=microsummary&diff=0&oldid=9959 * Tantek * (+7) more specific redirect
  11. [00:30:11] <bewest> tantek: do you mean time spent redocumenting bad ideas?
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  16. [00:44:43] <tantek> bewest, that too
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  18. [00:47:59] <bewest> documenting bad ideas isn't a waste of time unless it prevents documenting good ideas
  19. [00:48:44] <bewest> then again, since time is a limited good, it's always better to document good ideas
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  22. [00:54:33] <tantek> right
  23. [00:54:58] <tantek> and there is a need to nip bad ideas in the bud quickly so they don't propagate too much and waste even *more* people's time
  24. [00:55:33] <tantek> and yeah, it is a zero sum time tradeoff between time spent on criticizing bad ideas and creating/promoting good ideas
  25. [00:58:14] <tantek> of course the problem is that the world is able to generate far more bad ideas than good ones
  26. [00:58:26] <tantek> so critiquing bad ideas can easily take up all your time
  27. [00:58:46] <tantek> in some ways it is better to focus more energy on creating better ideas, and then letting the marketplace pick the winners
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  31. [01:11:09] <bewest> hmmm
  32. [01:11:11] <bewest> yes
  33. [01:11:22] <bewest> tantek: I've noticed people I admire tend to do that
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  60. [08:47:58] <drewinthehead> no jibot?
  61. [08:55:20] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  62. [08:58:43] <McNulty> morning all
  63. [08:59:31] <drewinthehead> morning McNulty
  64. [08:59:47] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181224025.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  65. [08:59:58] <McNulty> Why is it so COLD
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  68. [09:09:27] <drewinthehead> it's great .. nice and frosty :)
  69. [09:10:25] <drewinthehead> if i could get get Yahoo! to stop blowing cold air onto my desk I'd be sorted
  70. [09:12:16] <McNulty> Wow, aircon
  71. [09:12:19] <McNulty> Just what you need.
  72. [09:14:51] <drewinthehead> even in August i was freezing
  73. [09:16:33] <drewinthehead> not that we're british or anything ... complaining about the weather.
  74. [09:17:03] <McNulty> Bally cold outside, wot wot?
  75. [09:24:49] <drewinthehead> frightful, old chap.
  76. [09:28:59] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  77. [09:36:13] <kapowaz> morning.
  78. [09:36:51] <kapowaz> today was the first morning since I moved to London that I actually woke up feeling cold
  79. [09:37:16] <kapowaz> which isn't good considering I discovered 3 days ago that our central heating is on the blink
  80. [09:38:53] <drewinthehead> how long have you been in london, kapowaz?
  81. [09:43:34] <kapowaz> I moved down at the start of September, but I'd been commuting since August
  82. [09:43:43] <kapowaz> I was in Cambridge before that
  83. [09:44:30] <kapowaz> I'm kind of thankful I wasn't working in London in July... August was bad enough as it was, but at least there was quite a lot of rain. Took some of the heat away.
  84. [09:44:59] <kapowaz> July was spectacular in Cambridge though.
  85. [09:45:24] <kapowaz> I'm not normally a summer person but I think I'd happily go back to that
  86. [09:46:07] <kapowaz> cycling along the river towpath... sitting in the parks under the trees... walking down to the pub in flip-flops...
  87. [09:46:11] <kapowaz> sigh
  88. [09:46:52] <kapowaz> right, I know you guys are almost exclusively markup/programmer types, but does anybody here have decent experience using vector tools?
  89. [09:47:23] <kapowaz> because I want to draw something using paths in photoshop, and I don't know how to do it properly without guesswork, basically
  90. [09:47:40] <McNulty> Aaaah, Cambridge in the summer...
  91. [09:47:43] <kapowaz> curved, stroked lines. like, for instance, the lines on a tube map
  92. [09:48:16] <kapowaz> they have weight to them, but the curves are properly aligned - i.e. the angle of the inner curve is more acute than the one on the outer edge
  93. [09:48:24] <kapowaz> I've no idea how to achieve this in photoshop
  94. [09:48:45] <kapowaz> I can do anything that's basically a segment of a circle, but if I want more than one line coming off it, I'm stumped
  95. [09:51:46] <kapowaz> I'm fairly certain if I had Illustrator here this would be a piece of piss.
  96. [09:51:58] <kapowaz> like, I could just create a single path line and then add an outline stroke to it
  97. [09:52:09] <kapowaz> I wish Photoshop supported path-based strokes
  98. [09:52:34] <kapowaz> apart from file conversion, it's about the only thing I've ever used Illustrator for
  99. [09:55:57] <kapowaz> it's a scary thought that this is all logged. somebody is going to run some analysis of the IRC logs someday and realise that I never shut up.
  100. [09:57:45] <McNulty> It's ok, we all realise ;-)
  101. [10:00:56] * kapowaz grins
  102. [10:02:58] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  103. [10:03:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  104. [10:04:04] <kapowaz> are you a really early riser, Tantek?
  105. [10:04:09] <kapowaz> or did you just get in from the club ?
  106. [10:04:59] <tantek> just got home from hanging out with friends
  107. [10:05:45] <kapowaz> so now you can listen to us Brits complain about the weather
  108. [10:06:37] <tantek> it rained a bit today over here
  109. [10:09:34] <kapowaz> oh, it's not raining. it's just cold.
  110. [10:09:40] <kapowaz> and suddenly, quite unexpectedly so.
  111. [10:09:54] <kapowaz> summer carried on well into september, and october was relatively mild.
  112. [10:10:03] <kapowaz> November has arrived and with it the first frost.
  113. [10:13:16] <tantek> we had the warmest October in years here in SF - it was wonderful while it lasted
  114. [10:13:27] <McNulty> you're making me cry
  115. [10:17:16] <kapowaz> where are you, McNulty ?
  116. [10:29:58] <McNulty> London
  117. [10:38:58] <Frederic> Here the weather is really nice, but it's damn too cold
  118. [10:42:04] <McNulty> kapowaz - you?
  119. [10:42:10] <McNulty> I'm on Covent Garden.
  120. [10:50:26] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  121. [10:51:28] <kapowaz> oh you're just around the corner from me then
  122. [10:51:32] <kapowaz> I'm on Shaftesbury Avenue
  123. [10:51:40] <McNulty> who do you work for?
  124. [10:51:43] <kapowaz> *not* at Yahoo though, before you ask.
  125. [10:51:49] <McNulty> I was going to ;-)
  126. [10:52:00] <kapowaz> it's a telephony company.
  127. [10:52:14] <kapowaz> hang on, you work in Covent Garden... surely you come along to pub standards?
  128. [10:52:35] <McNulty> hm?
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  130. [10:52:45] <kapowaz> www.pubstandards.co.uk
  131. [10:52:55] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  132. [10:53:03] <kapowaz> it's like the post-conference drinks without the conference.
  133. [10:54:35] <McNulty> hm, maybe I'll come along
  134. [10:55:16] <kapowaz> we're overdue on a substandards meetup.
  135. [10:56:10] <kapowaz> pub standards is always at the Bricklayer's Arms, but substandards is (or at least *was* going to be) at a variety of venues.
  136. [11:00:39] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  137. [11:03:16] * drewinthehead hasn't been to pubstandards in ages
  138. [11:11:12] <kapowaz> as I understand it, yahoo may be 'sponsoring' the chrismtas party
  139. [11:11:20] <kapowaz> christmas. I think.
  140. [11:14:55] <drewinthehead> oo .. par-tay
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  142. [11:55:23] <mfbot> [[firefox]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/firefox * AndyMabbett * (+32) redirect
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  144. [12:10:19] <mfbot> [[page-summary-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=9960 * AndyMabbett * (+209) fix miosconceptions & grammar
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  146. [12:18:10] <mfbot> [[page-summary-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=9961 * AndyMabbett * (+4) Use more neutral (and common, on other pages) laguages
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  149. [12:39:02] <mfbot> [[page-summary-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=9962 * AndyMabbett * (+223) clarify purpose of microsumamries
  150. [12:39:53] <mfbot> [[page-summary-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=9963 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Microsummary - typo
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  157. [12:57:15] <drewinthehead> http://www.betarecordings.com/beta-site/CrazyPhotos/78_RandomCamPhone/01.jpg
  158. [12:57:16] <drewinthehead> :)
  159. [12:57:49] <briansuda> not sure how they equate that to non-artistic?
  160. [12:58:42] <drewinthehead> looks pretty artistic to me :)
  161. [13:00:22] <trovster> So delicious is not cool any more?
  162. [13:00:47] <drewinthehead> i think it was referring to graffiti taggers, but it amused me
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  171. [13:43:16] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9964 * DanAntiquities * (+190) New Examples -
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  174. [14:03:15] <drewinthehead> http://matt.blogs.it/2006/10/31.html "hResume (too complicated)"
  175. [14:05:14] <McNulty> HTML is hard?
  176. [14:05:31] <McNulty> I started trying to write an hResume and the skills-as-tags put me off a little
  177. [14:06:27] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("Some Kind of Raid Boss")
  178. [14:06:34] <drewinthehead> i've not looked at it much myself - just thought was was an interesting comment worth logging here
  179. [14:07:06] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  180. [14:07:15] <drewinthehead> from someone who is generally evaluating solutions - not looking specifically for an html or microformats method
  181. [14:07:15] <Frederic> drewinthehead: hresume is simple
  182. [14:07:21] <McNulty> It's fairly straightforward if you understand hCal, hCard, rel-tag
  183. [14:07:26] <drewinthehead> lol :)
  184. [14:07:32] <McNulty> That may be a big 'if'
  185. [14:07:37] <trovster> An OOP Java programmer who can't do hCal..
  186. [14:08:08] <McNulty> trovster - I dunno, I'm not sure which part of his OOP programming skillset you think should transfer over?
  187. [14:08:21] <drewinthehead> so it's a tough one to implement from a starting point of zero mf experience
  188. [14:08:33] <McNulty> It's 'hard' in the sense of 'a lot of stuff to read up on' rather than being conceptually difficult
  189. [14:08:38] <trovster> If you understand prgramming to that degree, I don't think uF are difficult.
  190. [14:09:15] <trovster> Anything is difficult if you're not willing to learn the basics.
  191. [14:09:51] <McNulty> Surely it's fair to say writing an hResume is harder than doing the same in Word for most people?
  192. [14:09:56] <drewinthehead> i think i'd say that if you're technically inclined (as programmers are) then applying microformats is a straightforward concept to learn
  193. [14:09:58] <McNulty> The extra value of hResume isn't free.
  194. [14:10:44] <Frederic> I've been presenting hresume to non developpers and developpers at BarCamp Paris 4 and no one found it difficult ro understand
  195. [14:10:47] <Frederic> to
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  198. [14:36:32] <kapowaz> why would you want to have your resume in that format anyway?
  199. [14:36:58] <kapowaz> my experience is that the most appropriate format depends an awful lot on the target audience
  200. [14:37:11] <kapowaz> for highly technical jobs where you're not going through an agency they usually want it in plain text
  201. [14:37:35] <McNulty> kapowaz - what format? hResume? Wiki?
  202. [14:37:45] <kapowaz> most agencies mandate Word (and boy did I have some nightmares with that this summer; I made mine in Pages and published it as a PDF)
  203. [14:37:48] <kapowaz> either
  204. [14:38:01] <McNulty> hResume is primarily for web-published CVs
  205. [14:38:08] <kapowaz> aye
  206. [14:38:13] <McNulty> i.e. someone's checking out your site...
  207. [14:38:14] <kapowaz> my question is: why publish it on the web?
  208. [14:38:30] <McNulty> Why publish CVs on the web? Erm, so people can find them.
  209. [14:38:36] <McNulty> It's like a free classified ad.
  210. [14:38:38] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  211. [14:38:39] <kapowaz> well that's one benefit
  212. [14:39:03] <kapowaz> but by virtue of it being totally public there's a good chance you won't be as candid as you might with a privately-stored print CV
  213. [14:39:16] <McNulty> hm, you think?
  214. [14:39:25] <kapowaz> for instance, do you put your full contact details, address, phone number etc?
  215. [14:39:28] <McNulty> Maybe I should slag off my previous employers on my CV more
  216. [14:39:34] <kapowaz> contact details of referees?
  217. [14:39:48] <McNulty> I have 'references available on request', actually ;-)
  218. [14:39:56] <McNulty> I put some contact details for me on there, sure
  219. [14:39:57] <kapowaz> I don't mean slagging off, I just think that it has to be a fair bit more audience-neutral if it's going to be 100% public
  220. [14:40:07] <McNulty> jobs@ciaranmcnulty.com and a messaging service phone number.
  221. [14:40:19] <kapowaz> I have always tailored my CV to each specific job I'm applying for, for instance
  222. [14:40:31] <McNulty> well yes
  223. [14:40:36] <kapowaz> you're a special breed of geek though :)
  224. [14:40:46] <McNulty> Clearly hResume's primary use is publically-published CVs
  225. [14:40:51] <kapowaz> not everyone has their own TLD and disposable mail aliases
  226. [14:40:56] <kapowaz> aye
  227. [14:41:01] <pnhChris> clearly? publically?
  228. [14:41:03] <pnhChris> i dunno
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  230. [14:41:04] <McNulty> LOTS of job sites have databases of CVs you can browse through, for instance.
  231. [14:41:14] <McNulty> pnhChris - mmmaybe not publically
  232. [14:41:23] <McNulty> I mean not necessarily stuff you'rs sending to a particular employer
  233. [14:41:25] <kapowaz> I just know that if I were to publically publish my CV it'd be a watered down version of my full CV
  234. [14:41:30] <pnhChris> sure
  235. [14:41:35] <pnhChris> but controlled in some way
  236. [14:41:36] <McNulty> If I was emailing my CV I'd PDF it first, for instance
  237. [14:41:43] <kapowaz> and by having to maintain two different versions, you get problems
  238. [14:41:49] <kapowaz> so I'd rather just maintain a single version
  239. [14:42:01] <kapowaz> after all, when I'm not *looking* for a job, I'm unlikely to need it to be available
  240. [14:42:08] <kapowaz> in fact the opposite is probably true
  241. [14:42:11] <McNulty> kapowaz - that's an argument against publishing your CV on your website, rather than against hResume though right
  242. [14:42:17] <kapowaz> I hate being bugged by agencies when I'm not looking for work
  243. [14:42:24] <pnhChris> there's a big difference between posting on your home page and 100,000 hresume'd users on a job site that requires login (for example)
  244. [14:42:24] <kapowaz> oh yes
  245. [14:42:30] <kapowaz> I'm not saying anything against hResume
  246. [14:42:33] * briansuda (i=99@gateway/web/cgi-irc/brujula5.brujula.net/x-c9dd0d51f1ef1c7b) Quit ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
  247. [14:42:40] <kapowaz> more the general principle of publishing a CV publically online
  248. [14:43:07] <kapowaz> are there any sites where you can browse thousands of CVs in hResume format online?
  249. [14:43:23] <kapowaz> given that virtually every large agency I've dealt with specifies Word format?
  250. [14:43:33] <kapowaz> they couldn't even handle PDFs
  251. [14:43:58] <kapowaz> either their own CV management software wouldn't accept non-.doc files, or they needed to be able to edit it to add their own stupid logo and remove my contact details
  252. [14:44:23] <McNulty> kapowaz - I don't have my own TLD by the way :-)
  253. [14:44:51] <kapowaz> TLD name then ;)
  254. [14:45:04] <McNulty> I wish I had .mcnulty
  255. [14:45:06] <kapowaz> ahh geeky pedantry. How I live for thee.
  256. [14:45:25] <kapowaz> I'd be quite happy if .waz were ever created
  257. [14:45:29] <kapowaz> actually
  258. [14:45:33] <kapowaz> .az might already exist!
  259. [14:45:36] * kapowaz runs off
  260. [14:45:36] <pnhChris> kapowaz: linkedin has some microformat support, i'd have to look and see about hresume
  261. [14:45:40] <McNulty> .an is somewhere unaccessable
  262. [14:45:43] <McNulty> I really want ciar.an
  263. [14:45:50] <kapowaz> Azerbaijan!
  264. [14:46:13] <McNulty> friend of mine got ala.sda.ir
  265. [14:46:13] * kapowaz will get kapow.az
  266. [14:46:26] <kapowaz> oh man, why didn't I think of this earlier?
  267. [14:46:32] <kapowaz> I'd certainly not bother with www then!
  268. [14:47:01] <McNulty> you shouldn't anyhow...
  269. [14:48:09] <kapowaz> bastards
  270. [14:48:15] <kapowaz> you can't get it
  271. [14:48:19] <kapowaz> only .something.az
  272. [14:48:22] <kapowaz> e.g. com.az
  273. [14:49:05] <McNulty> tsk
  274. [14:49:11] <McNulty> like .uk then
  275. [14:49:14] * briansuda (i=99@gateway/web/cgi-irc/brujula5.brujula.net/session) has joined #microformats
  276. [14:49:18] <McNulty> (unless you're one of the special people)
  277. [14:49:33] <kapowaz> how annoying
  278. [14:50:11] <McNulty> you know there are some .uk domains?
  279. [14:50:24] <McNulty> they're ones that were established before the rules were in place
  280. [14:50:27] <kapowaz> ah
  281. [14:50:31] <McNulty> .british-library.uk
  282. [14:54:02] <kapowaz> oh man
  283. [14:54:09] <kapowaz> this is who administers the .az TLD: http://www.azcom.az
  284. [14:54:18] <kapowaz> I'm going to see if they accept bribes
  285. [14:54:23] <McNulty> I'm sure they will
  286. [14:54:49] <McNulty> there is no .ty, damn
  287. [14:56:56] <kapowaz> there's .tj. Would that do?
  288. [14:57:54] <McNulty> McNultj?
  289. [14:57:57] <McNulty> not really ;-)
  290. [15:00:39] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  291. [15:03:07] <kapowaz> it'd sound sort of Azerbaijani
  292. [15:03:13] <kapowaz> or Polish
  293. [15:03:20] <kapowaz> I'm trying to see if I can register mmm.mm
  294. [15:03:30] <kapowaz> oh! even better: h.mm
  295. [15:05:13] <kapowaz> damn. .mm is the TLD for Burma, which is currently controlled by a militiary dictatorship which literally has no external internet access.
  296. [15:05:19] <kapowaz> ha, the whole country is one big extranet
  297. [15:07:02] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  298. [15:09:07] <ajturner> kapowaz - moreso that they would sell the tld
  299. [15:09:20] <ajturner> see: Tuvalu and .tv
  300. [15:09:25] <ajturner> they made *bank* on that one
  301. [15:09:54] <kapowaz> aye
  302. [15:09:59] <kapowaz> although .tv is a good one
  303. [15:11:10] <ajturner> right, so instead of using themselves (they're a slowly disintegrating island in the South Pacific) they sold the domain names for large sums of money
  304. [15:11:21] <ajturner> so a small, nothing, island of lime is rollin' in dough
  305. [15:11:22] <kapowaz> makes sense
  306. [15:12:25] <kapowaz> I'll get in contact with the military junta ruling Myamar and make them an offer :)
  307. [15:12:39] <ajturner> yu.mm
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  309. [15:29:56] <briansuda> FYI: in about 30 minutes "IRC Meeting about "People in RDF" - vCard/RDF, FOAF, and more 11:00 ET Friday #swig "
  310. [15:30:11] <kapowaz> swig. nice.
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  332. [16:56:59] <mfbot> [[User:JacksonWilkinson]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:JacksonWilkinson * JacksonWilkinson * (+136)
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  364. [18:04:33] <Frederic> re
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  386. [20:07:01] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9966 * SanchoTheFat * (+394)
  387. [20:08:22] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9967 * SanchoTheFat * (+3)
  388. [20:09:10] <kingryan> interesting user name
  389. [20:11:51] <kapowaz> it could be quite descriptive.
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  392. [20:26:53] <kapowaz> le trov.
  393. [20:27:12] <trovster> teh kapowaz ..
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

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