IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-12-05
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:04:05] <mfbot>
[[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11015 * DrErnie * (+10) Key -
- [00:07:11] <mfbot>
[[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11016 * DrErnie * (+49) table
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- [03:35:42] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [04:01:57] <mfbot>
[[faq-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-ja&diff=0&oldid=11017 * IwaiMasaharu * (+242) Wiki特有の質問 -
- [04:03:28] <mfbot>
[[faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=11018 * IwaiMasaharu * (-1) Wiki specific questions - fix typo
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- [05:08:36] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11019 * Csarven * (-113) New Examples -
- [05:09:02] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11020 * Csarven * (+113) Examples -
- [05:13:28] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=11021 * Csarven * (+1) 0.1 hAtom examples -
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- [06:24:17] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [06:26:31] <jibot>
Ashley` is has an accent.
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- [07:30:40] <mfbot>
[[faq-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-ja&diff=0&oldid=11022 * IwaiMasaharu * (+102) Q. ''Can an element have more than one class'' - add link to W3C HTML 4.01 Specification
- [07:31:20] <mfbot>
[[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=11023 * IwaiMasaharu * (+102) Q. ''Can an element have more than one class'' - add link to W3C HTML 4.01 Specification
- [07:35:37] <mfbot>
[[faq-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-ja&diff=0&oldid=11024 * IwaiMasaharu * (+161) Q. ''Can an element have more than one class'' -
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- [07:47:59] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [08:51:26] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=11025 * AndyMabbett * (-1) recert: list is chronological (per intro) not alphabetical
- [08:53:42] <mfbot>
[[User talk:DrErnie]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:DrErnie * AndyMabbett * (+332) Cheat-sheet key
- [08:58:18] <mfbot>
[[User talk:DrErnie]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:DrErnie&diff=0&oldid=11026 * AndyMabbett * (+90) Cheat-sheet key -
- [08:58:29] <mfbot>
[[User talk:DrErnie]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:DrErnie&diff=0&oldid=11027 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Cheat-sheet key -
- [09:00:55] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11028 * AndyMabbett * (+11) move latest addition to top; clarify ordering
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- [09:05:51] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [09:12:02] <mfbot>
[[hatom-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11029 * AndyMabbett * (-14) not all hAtom properties are class names
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- [09:40:46] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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- [10:17:26] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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- [10:54:21] <jibot>
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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- [11:19:10] <jibot>
kensanata is blogging at http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
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- [11:42:56] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [11:58:17] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [12:03:01] <mfbot>
[[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=11030 * EuanAdie * (+77) Added a reference to Connotea.
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- [12:10:02] <mfbot>
[[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=11031 * EuanAdie * (+11) References -
- [12:10:48] <mfbot>
[[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=11032 * EuanAdie * (-1) References -
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- [12:42:30] <mfbot>
[[hatom-cheatsheet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11033 * Brian * (-4) changed hFeed from optional 0-many, to just optional to make it consistant with other cheatsheets
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- [12:46:11] <mfbot>
[[hatom-cheatsheet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11034 * Brian * (+1) changed cardinality on AUTHOR because there can be multiple authors per entry
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- [13:10:48] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [13:48:29] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [14:52:52] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [14:56:35] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [15:10:51] <jibot>
vincenzio is vmarks/vzl/raoulduke and is trying to pare down the number of nicks in use.
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- [15:22:49] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [15:38:16] <jibot>
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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- [16:02:09] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
- [16:04:22] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11035 * Csarven * (+260) New Examples -
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- [16:38:24] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11036 * AndyMabbett * (+15) move new addition to top
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- [17:41:15] <jibot>
Whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
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- [18:20:48] <mfbot>
[[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=11037 * AndyMabbett * (+72) hCard: eBay (anyone have contact detials?)
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- [18:22:04] <mfbot>
[[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=11038 * AndyMabbett * (+78) hCalendar: eBay (anyone have contact detials?)
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- [18:29:20] <mfbot>
[[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=11039 * AndyMabbett * (+382) hReview: eBay (anyone have contact detials?); differentaite sub-heads
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- [18:58:17] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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- [19:04:03] <mfbot>
[[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11040 * DrErnie * (-15) Perl, not POSIX
- [19:04:57] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [19:08:09] <mfbot>
[[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11041 * DrErnie * (+26) padding
- [19:10:47] <jinx>
Phae: I've just had a rather interesting chat with my best mate and your name came up in conversation..
- [19:12:05] <Phae>
... yeah. I'm guessing I knwo what already.
- [19:12:13] <jinx>
you do?
- [19:12:14] * thp (n=thp@i577A409C.versanet.de) has joined #microformats
- [19:12:15] <Phae>
A friend of yours or something, is a friend of someone else... and he emailed me yesterday
- [19:12:40] <mfbot>
[[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11042 * DrErnie * (+21) comment entry
- [19:12:51] <jinx>
He tells me they're trying to steal you
- [19:13:06] <Phae>
yea
- [19:13:25] <Phae>
tbh, it's not likely. they want someone with experience to help them out a lot. I'm not in a position to offer that, I don't think.
- [19:13:33] <Phae>
-don't.
- [19:13:56] <mfbot>
[[hatom-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11043 * DrErnie * (+11) replace bold with {1}, where appropriate
- [19:14:11] <jinx>
Their lead dev is my old housemate from uni and I also lived with him before moving to wokingham
- [19:14:12] <mfbot>
[[hatom-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11044 * DrErnie * (+15) (Class Names)
- [19:14:18] <Phae>
ah
- [19:14:23] <jinx>
i showed him an article on your site a few weeks back
- [19:14:33] <Phae>
anyway, very random and flattering, but they're off the mark imho.
- [19:15:00] <Phae>
Yeah
- [19:15:20] <jinx>
I guess it is pretty cool to be headhunted like that
- [19:15:29] <Phae>
It would be if I thought I could do the job.
- [19:15:35] <Phae>
heh
- [19:15:35] <jinx>
what do they want?
- [19:15:43] <Phae>
Someone to be their creative lead.
- [19:15:48] <jinx>
ah
- [19:16:06] <Phae>
I'm trying to think if I know someone else who might suit them before I reply, is all.
- [19:16:13] <Phae>
Tryin' to be helpful.
- [19:16:19] <jinx>
kewl
- [19:16:48] <mfbot>
[[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11045 * DrErnie * (+11) '#' for comment
- [19:17:19] <mfbot>
[[hatom-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11046 * DrErnie * (-3) recomment
- [19:18:05] <mfbot>
[[hcard-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11047 * DrErnie * (+8) {1}
- [19:18:21] <mfbot>
[[adr-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11048 * DrErnie * (+4)
- [19:18:59] <jinx>
Neil? ;P
- [19:19:13] <Phae>
I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
- [19:19:22] <mfbot>
[[geo-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11049 * DrErnie * (+4) {1}
- [19:19:31] <Phae>
I think you were away the day he made me cry.
- [19:19:38] <jinx>
no - I remember.
- [19:19:41] <Phae>
heh
- [19:19:43] <Phae>
oh funny
- [19:19:48] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11050 * DrErnie * (+8) {1}
- [19:19:51] <jinx>
not really i guess :/
- [19:20:00] <Phae>
in hindsight it is
- [19:21:01] <Phae>
kris is leaving to go to london.. he's pretty good
- [19:21:06] <Phae>
i wonder if he's got a job there yet
- [19:21:52] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ()
- [19:22:13] <jinx>
can't hurt to find out
- [19:22:15] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [19:22:34] * Phae ponders.
- [19:23:28] <thp>
Hi, I have a small news page I am switching over to hAtom (for kicks and in order to learn), got a related question:
- [19:23:45] <jinx>
Phae: hrm. I should really tell my friend off for attempting to steal your skills! In some ways it's a betrayal! :)
- [19:24:03] <Phae>
shoot thp
- [19:24:25] * jinx shoots thp as requested.
- [19:24:57] <Phae>
my skills are just that leet, jinx. it's only natural. don't be mad at him.
- [19:25:02] <thp>
The news page is not a blog with inherent categories or related archives, still there's separate sections the newspage covers, like forum or downloads.
- [19:25:20] <Phae>
rm'k
- [19:25:31] <thp>
Assuming the mentioned sections are only virtual, what do you link the categories to?
- [19:25:57] <thp>
Let me rephrase sections to topics, rather
- [19:26:07] <thp>
So there'S topics, but no actual sections on the site
- [19:26:19] <Phae>
so... they're like keywords for an article?
- [19:26:23] <Phae>
or... tags. :)
- [19:26:31] <thp>
Right
- [19:26:53] <thp>
The Tails extension for ff doesn't recognise categories on other than links with rel="tag"
- [19:26:56] <Phae>
but they're vague keywords - like "forum" or "download"?
- [19:27:06] <thp>
Yes
- [19:27:08] * billyjack (n=mikes@65.213.68.242) has joined #microformats
- [19:27:17] <Phae>
right. the rel-tag is the bit it's looking for
- [19:27:23] * fzap (n=fzap@ip94.117.1312A-CUD12K-01.ish.de) has joined #microformats
- [19:27:33] <Phae>
is the MF wiki down for just me, btw?
- [19:27:37] <thp>
Yeah, but it seems to be bound to a hyperlink
- [19:27:45] * malware (n=mikes@64.80.24.50) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [19:27:51] <Phae>
ah, yeah. that's why i asked about the vagueness
- [19:28:08] * billyjack is now known as malware
- [19:28:16] <thp>
The wiki seems to have probs.
- [19:28:25] <Phae>
:/ annoying. oh well.
- [19:28:26] <thp>
Heya fzap
- [19:28:31] <fzap>
hey thp
- [19:28:48] <Phae>
so the forum, downloads, etc., don't actually exist as pages alone somewhere?
- [19:28:49] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:28:55] <thp>
Right
- [19:29:09] <Phae>
hm. sucks.
- [19:29:10] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has left #microformats
- [19:29:22] <thp>
I wonder if it would be correct to link to the newspage itself, yet it would suck semantically
- [19:29:31] <Phae>
yeah, that doesn't make sense to me.
- [19:30:24] <thp>
So I'm bsically trying to implement categories/keywords/tags, make them visible to mf-enabled software, but not suck in the process. Heh
- [19:30:37] <Phae>
i suppose ideally they should link through to some sort of reference within the site somewhere. it seems like something that would add value anyway, since using seemingly arbritary keywords ilke "forum" might be pretty useless to some without context.
- [19:30:41] * danja (n=danja@host222-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
- [19:30:41] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
- [19:30:52] * danja (n=danja@host222-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [19:31:44] <Whafro>
thoughts on whether or not using h1-h6 in a tag cloud to show weight semantically is good, or bad because the tags aren't headings?
- [19:31:53] <Phae>
bad. :)
- [19:31:55] <jinx>
Phae: nah - i'm not mad at him really. future's looking bright for you though - congrats on the offer, even if you don't think it's for you and your 1337 skillz... going afk, see you in the morrow.
- [19:32:03] * Loosive is now known as Mr_Elusive
- [19:32:13] <Phae>
ciao :)
- [19:32:34] <thp>
Yeah, ideally it should link through to something. Well, if respective separate pages exist, there should be no problem, right?
- [19:32:41] <Phae>
right.
- [19:32:56] <thp>
Good.
- [19:33:21] <Phae>
Whafro: headers have a really clear meaning. using them in a tag cloud is kind of abusing their meaning. a popular way of doing it, but it's a little mark-up heavy, is nesting <em>s
- [19:33:39] <Phae>
There was a discussion about tagclouds on the uf-discuss
- [19:33:46] <Whafro>
Phae: ja, that's my initial thought... but it is the only tag that has any semantic non-heirarchical weight... just noticed that Moveable Type does it that way by default
- [19:33:51] * fzap (n=fzap@ip94.117.1312A-CUD12K-01.ish.de) Quit ("leaving")
- [19:34:07] <Phae>
with headers?? ick.
- [19:34:10] <Whafro>
ya
- [19:34:13] <Phae>
that sucks.
- [19:34:21] <Whafro>
my coworker goes "ooh, isn't that clever and great!"
- [19:34:27] <Phae>
sigh.
- [19:34:35] <Whafro>
he means well ;)
- [19:34:55] <Phae>
I was at a screen reader demo last week, on a related note. the blind user was using the headers to navigate pages more easily and get context immediately
- [19:35:04] <Phae>
imagine if he went to a page with a header tagcloud
- [19:35:05] <Phae>
:/
- [19:35:34] <thp>
Are there any real-world uses for microformats like hAtom already? Except for that service mentioned in the wiki which converts hAtom to Atom? (Looking into that) Sorry if that's a stupid question from someone implementing hAtom.
- [19:35:44] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:35:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [19:35:44] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [19:35:47] <Phae>
that's pretty much the main one atm, thp.
- [19:35:49] <Whafro>
yeah, I was considering dragging JAWS out to check that
- [19:35:56] <Phae>
hAtom is still very much draft, I suppose
- [19:36:10] <Phae>
It needs take up on something larger to push someone into writing a proper aggregator, I guess.
- [19:36:25] <Phae>
Yeah, Whafro :)
- [19:37:40] <thp>
But, why would you, for example, have someone write an aggregator for hAtom when a lots of blogging software supports Atom already?
- [19:37:59] <thp>
Because they can, ok.
- [19:38:01] <thp>
Heh.
- [19:38:06] <Phae>
Yeah, it's mountains.
- [19:38:19] <Phae>
It's just to produce the initial feed is easier
- [19:38:23] <Phae>
you don't need any XML
- [19:38:31] <Phae>
IT's a publisher first attitude
- [19:38:35] <tantek>
to encourage DRY
- [19:38:36] * mfbot (n=mfbot@69.55.232.130) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
- [19:38:41] <Phae>
hey tantek :)
- [19:38:46] <tantek>
hey Phae :)
- [19:39:08] <thp>
What is DRY? I'm German, my English alas isn't perfect
- [19:39:20] <hober>
don't repeat yourself
- [19:39:57] <Phae>
It's an acronym.. just means that instead of publishing something twice (i.e in HTML and XML) - you just do it once in HTML
- [19:40:17] <thp>
I can see a use case there with automagically converting hAtom to Atom, ok, I'm currently hand-crafting an Atom feed for that little news page, tell me about repeating myself, heh.
- [19:40:43] <thp>
AAh, ok, I was writing that with my nose o the keypboard when you repllied.
- [19:40:45] <tantek>
Phae, it strikes me as that might be an excellent little page to create on the wiki - http://microformats.org/wiki/dry
- [19:40:50] <tantek>
wanna give it a shot?
- [19:41:01] <Phae>
sure
- [19:41:08] * Phae gets another homework assignment from tantek
- [19:41:36] <Phae>
I'll look at it when the wiki starts working ;(
- [19:41:48] <tantek>
uh-oh
- [19:41:49] <AdamCraven>
aye, thought it was just me
- [19:42:12] <Phae>
It was there recently. we were getting change logs in here
- [19:42:20] <Phae>
died about 30 or 40 mins ago I'd guess.
- [19:43:16] <tantek>
it just worked for me
- [19:43:19] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page
- [19:43:25] <Phae>
it's back :)
- [19:44:01] <AdamCraven>
Any of you lot working in London?
- [19:47:51] <thp>
Still timing out on me :/
- [19:48:06] <AdamCraven>
gone again
- [19:48:20] * Phae doesn't save her edits yet. :)
- [19:48:34] * Calum (n=icepickf@82-41-19-93.cable.ubr03.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [19:48:46] * Hayo (n=Hayo@a80-126-105-179.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
- [19:48:54] <thp>
What's the URL for that hAtom>Atom conversion service/tool I read about in the wiki? Does anybody happen to have it handy?
- [19:49:04] <Phae>
not off the top of my head, sorry
- [19:49:08] <Phae>
hey guys :)
- [19:49:18] <Calum>
hello phae :)
- [19:49:23] <thp>
Ok
- [19:49:36] <Phae>
I encouraged Calum and Hayo in because we were discussing hAtom.
- [19:49:50] <Phae>
The query is what really is the point of using hAtom?
- [19:50:14] <Hayo>
my opinion is that hAtom is utterly redundant. it tries to replace a perfectly good standard.
- [19:50:22] <thp>
Got it I think: http://lukearno.com/projects/hAtom/
- [19:50:33] <Phae>
yep. that's the ticket, thp
- [19:51:17] <Calum>
mf.org is timing out :/
- [19:51:22] <Phae>
yeah.
- [19:51:25] * Phae pokes tantek again.
- [19:52:07] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-253-100.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- [19:52:39] <Hayo>
if you want a single source of data, you can use XML to output whatever flavour of html/xhtml/xmlfeed/rss. so why created a surrogate standard on top of xhtml?
- [19:53:02] <Phae>
The idea is that most people aren't writing XML documents.
- [19:53:12] <Phae>
They don't know how.
- [19:54:08] <Hayo>
but they are using blogging tools and cmsses with support for feeds and html output built in. so...... still redundant.
- [19:54:11] <thp>
It's easier to implement for developers? I, for instance, don't have a XML basis from which to convert anything to. I use XHTML and marking up with hAtom then have it translated by a CMS would reduce redundancy in my book
- [19:54:22] <Phae>
still means that they're publishing something twice.
- [19:54:32] <Hayo>
but why is that _bad_?
- [19:55:08] <Phae>
Overheads.
- [19:55:14] <Phae>
It's double maintainance.
- [19:55:47] <Hayo>
ah, but i use my feed as a channel in itself. it doesn't show the same content as my news pages.
- [19:55:51] * neuraxon77 (n=craig@cust1608.vic01.dataco.com.au) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [19:56:35] <Phae>
Oh? So subscribers have differing content? Or do you just mean in a snippet way?
- [19:56:44] <Hayo>
snippet way.
- [19:56:58] <Hayo>
they get a summary of the article.
- [19:57:20] <Phae>
hAtom does that.
- [19:58:30] <Phae>
Anyway. If you're happy publishing that way, that's cool. :) No one is saying you've gotta change. It's just making publisher perhaps easier for some people, though.
- [19:58:45] <Phae>
hAtom maps to Atom so that the two can be somewhat interchangable.
- [19:59:01] <Hayo>
speaking of overheads; you would require people to load your entire html page in their reader, thus making it slower then a full xml only feed.
- [19:59:11] <Hayo>
yeah, i agree. but i like to argue :D
- [19:59:52] <Phae>
;P
- [20:00:56] <Hayo>
i like to keep my code clean and dedicated, which usually means keeping mf out of them ;)
- [20:01:14] <Phae>
If you say so, Hayo :P
- [20:01:32] <Hayo>
:D
- [20:13:26] <thp>
Have a nice remaining day. Laters.
- [20:13:29] <thp>
:)
- [20:13:36] <Hayo>
byes :)
- [20:13:39] * thp (n=thp@i577A409C.versanet.de) Quit ("Verlassend")
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- [20:35:13] * Hayo (n=Hayo@a80-126-105-179.adsl.xs4all.nl) has left #microformats
- [20:54:18] <DanC>
anybody here use ff2 on debian sid? Do I want to upgrade from ff1.5?
- [20:55:18] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) has joined #microformats
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- [21:13:10] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [21:15:38] * malware (n=mikes@65.213.68.242) Quit ("Get behind me, satan.")
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- [22:02:49] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
- [22:07:09] <tantek>
wiki etc. seems to be back up and functioning - anyone still having issues?
- [22:07:23] * remi (n=remi@dsl-137-29.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
- [22:07:23] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
- [22:37:23] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
- [22:37:23] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [22:41:08] <tantek>
hi Phae - thanks for writing up the DRY page
- [22:42:26] <Phae>
It's not really yet. I just haven't thought of anything better right now. I might look at other people's descriptions of DRY.
- [22:44:02] <tantek>
it was exactly what i was asking for - just what u said in teh channel summarized etc.
- [22:44:16] * popov (n=ppopov@media.rc.edu) has joined #microformats
- [22:44:21] <Phae>
well, that's good.
- [22:56:27] <Phae>
night all.
- [22:56:31] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
- [23:02:23] <Hixie>
hello
- [23:02:25] <Hixie>
quick question
- [23:02:31] <tantek>
hello Hixie
- [23:02:34] <Hixie>
you can have hCard blobs inside hCalendar events, right?
- [23:02:45] <tantek>
yes of course
- [23:02:48] <tantek>
specifically
- [23:03:03] <tantek>
location is often marked up with hCard
- [23:03:16] <KevinMarks>
afternoon
- [23:03:17] <tantek>
and you can just say "hCards"
- [23:03:20] <Hixie>
is there an unambiguous way to have just one hCard somewhere in the document, and then have a series of events all with the same location somehow refer to that location?
- [23:03:21] <tantek>
instead of "hCard blogs"
- [23:03:24] <tantek>
blobs
- [23:03:33] * tantek tries to type blobs and can't help but type blogs - heh
- [23:03:36] <KevinMarks>
just done a speedgeeking demo session on Microformats at the internet identity workshop
- [23:03:41] <KevinMarks>
croak
- [23:03:41] <tantek>
Hixie, yes
- [23:04:19] <tantek>
KevinMarks - you croaked?
- [23:04:22] <tantek>
like a frog?
- [23:04:23] <Hixie>
tantek: what's the syntax for that?
- [23:04:36] <tantek>
Hixie see include-pattern
- [23:04:52] <KevinMarks>
i have a frog in my throat after doing 9 microformats demos in a row
- [23:04:53] * Hixie looks
- [23:04:57] * tantek realizes include-pattern might be something worthy of inclusion directly into HTML5
- [23:05:26] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern
- [23:05:30] <Hixie>
oh interesting
- [23:05:35] <tantek>
yeah
- [23:05:35] <Hixie>
so using <object>
- [23:05:40] <tantek>
and we've iterated with practical examples
- [23:05:41] <tantek>
well not really
- [23:05:54] <Hixie>
or <a>
- [23:05:54] <Hixie>
hmm
- [23:05:54] <tantek>
it causes too many problems in *some* browsers <cough>Safari/KHTML</cough>
- [23:06:01] <tantek>
object that is
- [23:06:02] <tantek>
ahem
- [23:06:25] <tantek>
Hixie see: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback
- [23:06:27] <tantek>
for the ugly details
- [23:06:30] <Hixie>
would it make sense for HTML5 to have an attribute that is specifically for saying "this subtree has this relation to that subtree of the same document"?
- [23:06:35] <KevinMarks>
doesn't object trigger IE to warn now?
- [23:06:38] * Hixie reads the ugly details
- [23:06:54] <tantek>
Hixie, I wouldn't generalize to "relation"
- [23:07:09] <tantek>
just stick with adding "include"
- [23:07:21] <tantek>
as we have demonstrated actual live/real-world utility for "include" fragments like that
- [23:07:26] <Hixie>
interesting
- [23:07:38] <tantek>
yeah, retarded browsers
- [23:08:10] <Hixie>
no i meant interesting to just need an "include"
- [23:08:23] <Azathoth>
good morning
- [23:08:28] <tantek>
right - we prefer to limit functionality to only what we have shown is necessary/useful
- [23:08:40] <tantek>
as opposed to generalizing to whatever XML etc. architects come up with
- [23:08:49] <tantek>
as mathematically/theoretically/Turing complete or whatever
- [23:09:29] <Hixie>
would an empty <include ref="idref"/> be the kind of thing you want?
- [23:09:37] <Hixie>
or an about="" attribute on all elements?
- [23:09:38] <Hixie>
or?
- [23:10:54] <Hixie>
or maybe we can piggyback this on a more generic cross-reference mechanism
- [23:11:14] <tantek>
Hixie, always be aware of anyone saying "more generic"
- [23:11:23] <tantek>
they are probably trying to sell you a white paper
- [23:11:26] <tantek>
;)
- [23:11:27] <Hixie>
<p>... see <xref to="idref">earlier</xref> for more information</p>
- [23:11:46] <Hixie>
where "earlier" gets generated-content-ed into "page 6" or something
- [23:12:02] * tantek warns Hixie of feature creep.
- [23:12:12] <tantek>
without real-world examples
- [23:12:13] <Hixie>
and in microformats you would have <xref to="myvcard">me</xref>
- [23:12:15] <Hixie>
or some such
- [23:12:25] * tantek eschews XML brainstorming.
- [23:12:56] <Hixie>
we've had a lot of use cases brought forward for cross-references, i'm just trying to see if i can hit two birds with one stone here
- [23:13:14] <Hixie>
so in fact i'm trying to keep it simpler and avoid feature creep
- [23:13:34] <Hixie>
no need to keep reminding me of my own design principles :-)
- [23:14:38] <Hixie>
seems like this is really a hyperlink
- [23:14:52] <Hixie>
<a href="#myvcard">me</a>
- [23:15:11] * tantek warns Hixie beware of XLink.
- [23:16:05] <Hixie>
any chance you could give positive suggestions instead of warnings? :-)
- [23:16:22] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [23:18:05] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has joined #microformats
- [23:19:22] <tantek>
require those bringing forward use cases to document them with *actual* URLs to *real world* examples on the web and not just synthetic examples constructed for the sake of attempting to prove a use case
- [23:19:55] * remi (n=remi@dsl-137-29.aei.ca) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [23:20:00] * shawn (n=shawn@208.68.64.75) has joined #microformats
- [23:23:48] <tantek>
Hixie, another requirement we are considering (actually, have already considered, and just need to write up in the process), is to require folks who want to propose new microformats to first implement existing microformats on their sites.
- [23:23:58] <tantek>
The HTML5 equivalent might be for example
- [23:24:41] <Hixie>
my philosophy is that all feedback is welcome, and i'll ignore the crap; your feedback seems to be that crap feedback is not welcome.
- [23:24:51] <Hixie>
both have the same end-result
- [23:24:58] <tantek>
from a prioritization perspective yes
- [23:25:00] <Hixie>
mine will get more feedback overall though :-)
- [23:25:07] <tantek>
crap feedback falls below the deserves a reply threshold
- [23:25:12] <Hixie>
since i'm employed to work on this fulltime i can probably afford the more expensive method
- [23:25:26] <tantek>
not a matter of affording
- [23:25:28] <tantek>
but rather return on investment
- [23:25:41] <Hixie>
i can afford to invest more, then :-)
- [23:25:45] <Hixie>
for the same return
- [23:26:05] <tantek>
what increased marginal returns are you seeing in exchange for your additional marginal costs?
- [23:26:23] <tantek>
especially given that you have bottlenecked editing the spec with yourself ;)
- [23:26:45] <Hixie>
imho the whatwg spec is more detailed, for one :-)
- [23:27:29] <tantek>
more detailed than it would otherwise be? sure.
- [23:28:22] <tantek>
so perhaps The HTML5 equivalent of the above microformats proposal requirement might be to require those that are requesting new features etc. to first support proper semantic HTML 4.01 strict on their pages (or XHTML 1.0 strict) before being allowed to propose new features
- [23:29:01] <Hixie>
that would basically mean nobody could contribute
- [23:29:01] <tantek>
I would bet that lots of people propose HTML5 features out of ignorance (e.g. features that already exist in HTML4)
- [23:29:39] <tantek>
if they can't be bothered to support HTML4.01 on their own pages, then how can expect that ANYONE will be bothered to support their fancy new feature request in HTML5 ever?
- [23:33:18] <tantek>
it serves as a good filter against all the wishful theoreticians that wish the world would be a cleaner more structured place but can't be bothered to clean their own mess on their own websites
- [23:36:59] * RCanine (n=ryan@wuser96-shapiro.umnet.umich.edu) has joined #microformats
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- [23:53:39] <Hixie>
tantek: actually most people haven't been giving feedback like that
- [23:54:07] <tantek>
it's specifically the "I want a feature/tag/attribute to do this!" type feedback.
- [23:54:33] <Hixie>
that's been pretty rare
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