IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-12-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:04:05] <mfbot> [[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11015 * DrErnie * (+10) Key -
  2. [00:07:11] <mfbot> [[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11016 * DrErnie * (+49) table
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  20. [03:08:48] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  21. [03:35:42] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  22. [03:35:42] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  23. [04:01:57] <mfbot> [[faq-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-ja&diff=0&oldid=11017 * IwaiMasaharu * (+242) Wiki特有の質問 -
  24. [04:03:28] <mfbot> [[faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=11018 * IwaiMasaharu * (-1) Wiki specific questions - fix typo
  25. [04:27:10] * neuraxon77 (n=craig@cust1608.vic01.dataco.com.au) has joined #microformats
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  27. [05:06:43] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable081.169-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
  28. [05:08:36] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11019 * Csarven * (-113) New Examples -
  29. [05:09:02] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11020 * Csarven * (+113) Examples -
  30. [05:13:28] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=11021 * Csarven * (+1) 0.1 hAtom examples -
  31. [05:23:24] * Ashley` (n=TXtoucia@ppp223-131.lns2.bne1.internode.on.net) Quit ("brb")
  32. [05:45:08] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  38. [06:24:17] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  39. [06:26:31] * Ashley` (n=TXtoucia@ppp119-59.lns1.bne4.internode.on.net) has joined #microformats
  40. [06:26:31] <jibot> Ashley` is has an accent.
  41. [07:02:08] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  42. [07:15:08] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-253-100.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  45. [07:30:40] <mfbot> [[faq-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-ja&diff=0&oldid=11022 * IwaiMasaharu * (+102) Q. ''Can an element have more than one class'' - add link to W3C HTML 4.01 Specification
  46. [07:31:20] <mfbot> [[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=11023 * IwaiMasaharu * (+102) Q. ''Can an element have more than one class'' - add link to W3C HTML 4.01 Specification
  47. [07:35:37] <mfbot> [[faq-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-ja&diff=0&oldid=11024 * IwaiMasaharu * (+161) Q. ''Can an element have more than one class'' -
  48. [07:41:17] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
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  50. [07:47:59] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) has joined #microformats
  51. [07:47:59] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  52. [07:52:09] * vant__ (n=vant@FLH1Abe060.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  53. [08:02:52] * neuraxon77 (n=craig@cust1608.vic01.dataco.com.au) Quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
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  56. [08:51:26] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=11025 * AndyMabbett * (-1) recert: list is chronological (per intro) not alphabetical
  57. [08:53:42] <mfbot> [[User talk:DrErnie]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:DrErnie * AndyMabbett * (+332) Cheat-sheet key
  58. [08:58:18] <mfbot> [[User talk:DrErnie]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:DrErnie&diff=0&oldid=11026 * AndyMabbett * (+90) Cheat-sheet key -
  59. [08:58:29] <mfbot> [[User talk:DrErnie]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:DrErnie&diff=0&oldid=11027 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Cheat-sheet key -
  60. [09:00:55] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11028 * AndyMabbett * (+11) move latest addition to top; clarify ordering
  61. [09:05:51] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  62. [09:05:51] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  63. [09:12:02] <mfbot> [[hatom-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11029 * AndyMabbett * (-14) not all hAtom properties are class names
  64. [09:40:45] * BenWard (n=BenWard@host81-156-13-2.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  65. [09:40:46] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
  66. [10:17:25] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  67. [10:17:26] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  68. [10:34:39] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124x32x114x226.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
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  70. [10:54:21] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  71. [10:54:21] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  72. [11:19:10] * kensanata (n=alex@pdpc/supporter/active/kensanata) has joined #microformats
  73. [11:19:10] <jibot> kensanata is blogging at http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
  74. [11:42:55] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  75. [11:42:56] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  76. [11:58:17] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable081.169-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  77. [11:58:17] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  78. [12:03:01] <mfbot> [[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=11030 * EuanAdie * (+77) Added a reference to Connotea.
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  80. [12:10:02] <mfbot> [[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=11031 * EuanAdie * (+11) References -
  81. [12:10:48] <mfbot> [[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=11032 * EuanAdie * (-1) References -
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  83. [12:42:30] <mfbot> [[hatom-cheatsheet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11033 * Brian * (-4) changed hFeed from optional 0-many, to just optional to make it consistant with other cheatsheets
  84. [12:45:34] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  85. [12:46:11] <mfbot> [[hatom-cheatsheet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11034 * Brian * (+1) changed cardinality on AUTHOR because there can be multiple authors per entry
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  89. [13:10:47] * bergie (n=bergie@net-75.nrpn.net) has joined #microformats
  90. [13:10:48] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  95. [13:48:29] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  108. [14:52:52] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  109. [14:56:34] * danja (n=danja@host222-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  110. [14:56:35] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  116. [15:10:51] <jibot> vincenzio is vmarks/vzl/raoulduke and is trying to pare down the number of nicks in use.
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  121. [15:22:49] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  129. [15:38:16] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
  130. [15:42:11] * danja (n=danja@host222-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
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  136. [16:02:09] * cgriego (n=cgriego@rrcs-64-183-177-226.sw.biz.rr.com) has joined #Microformats
  137. [16:02:09] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  138. [16:04:22] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11035 * Csarven * (+260) New Examples -
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  148. [16:38:24] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11036 * AndyMabbett * (+15) move new addition to top
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  151. [16:49:49] * malware (n=mikes@65.213.68.242) Quit ("Get behind me, satan.")
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  156. [17:06:01] * bear_afk is now known as bear
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  160. [17:41:15] * Whafro (n=alter@65.107.196.194.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #microformats
  161. [17:41:15] <jibot> Whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
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  168. [18:20:48] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=11037 * AndyMabbett * (+72) hCard: eBay (anyone have contact detials?)
  169. [18:21:38] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  170. [18:22:04] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=11038 * AndyMabbett * (+78) hCalendar: eBay (anyone have contact detials?)
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  175. [18:29:20] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=11039 * AndyMabbett * (+382) hReview: eBay (anyone have contact detials?); differentaite sub-heads
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  177. [18:47:47] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  178. [18:49:22] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  179. [18:57:33] * neuraxon77 (n=craig@cust1608.vic01.dataco.com.au) has joined #microformats
  180. [18:58:17] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
  181. [18:58:17] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  182. [19:01:28] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has joined #microformats
  183. [19:01:30] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has left #microformats
  184. [19:04:03] <mfbot> [[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11040 * DrErnie * (-15) Perl, not POSIX
  185. [19:04:57] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  186. [19:08:09] <mfbot> [[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11041 * DrErnie * (+26) padding
  187. [19:10:47] <jinx> Phae: I've just had a rather interesting chat with my best mate and your name came up in conversation..
  188. [19:12:05] <Phae> ... yeah. I'm guessing I knwo what already.
  189. [19:12:13] <jinx> you do?
  190. [19:12:14] * thp (n=thp@i577A409C.versanet.de) has joined #microformats
  191. [19:12:15] <Phae> A friend of yours or something, is a friend of someone else... and he emailed me yesterday
  192. [19:12:40] <mfbot> [[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11042 * DrErnie * (+21) comment entry
  193. [19:12:51] <jinx> He tells me they're trying to steal you
  194. [19:13:06] <Phae> yea
  195. [19:13:25] <Phae> tbh, it's not likely. they want someone with experience to help them out a lot. I'm not in a position to offer that, I don't think.
  196. [19:13:33] <Phae> -don't.
  197. [19:13:56] <mfbot> [[hatom-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11043 * DrErnie * (+11) replace bold with {1}, where appropriate
  198. [19:14:11] <jinx> Their lead dev is my old housemate from uni and I also lived with him before moving to wokingham
  199. [19:14:12] <mfbot> [[hatom-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11044 * DrErnie * (+15) (Class Names)
  200. [19:14:18] <Phae> ah
  201. [19:14:23] <jinx> i showed him an article on your site a few weeks back
  202. [19:14:33] <Phae> anyway, very random and flattering, but they're off the mark imho.
  203. [19:15:00] <Phae> Yeah
  204. [19:15:20] <jinx> I guess it is pretty cool to be headhunted like that
  205. [19:15:29] <Phae> It would be if I thought I could do the job.
  206. [19:15:35] <Phae> heh
  207. [19:15:35] <jinx> what do they want?
  208. [19:15:43] <Phae> Someone to be their creative lead.
  209. [19:15:48] <jinx> ah
  210. [19:16:06] <Phae> I'm trying to think if I know someone else who might suit them before I reply, is all.
  211. [19:16:13] <Phae> Tryin' to be helpful.
  212. [19:16:19] <jinx> kewl
  213. [19:16:48] <mfbot> [[Template:cheatsheet-key]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:cheatsheet-key&diff=0&oldid=11045 * DrErnie * (+11) '#' for comment
  214. [19:17:19] <mfbot> [[hatom-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11046 * DrErnie * (-3) recomment
  215. [19:18:05] <mfbot> [[hcard-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11047 * DrErnie * (+8) {1}
  216. [19:18:21] <mfbot> [[adr-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11048 * DrErnie * (+4)
  217. [19:18:59] <jinx> Neil? ;P
  218. [19:19:13] <Phae> I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
  219. [19:19:22] <mfbot> [[geo-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11049 * DrErnie * (+4) {1}
  220. [19:19:31] <Phae> I think you were away the day he made me cry.
  221. [19:19:38] <jinx> no - I remember.
  222. [19:19:41] <Phae> heh
  223. [19:19:43] <Phae> oh funny
  224. [19:19:48] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=11050 * DrErnie * (+8) {1}
  225. [19:19:51] <jinx> not really i guess :/
  226. [19:20:00] <Phae> in hindsight it is
  227. [19:21:01] <Phae> kris is leaving to go to london.. he's pretty good
  228. [19:21:06] <Phae> i wonder if he's got a job there yet
  229. [19:21:52] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ()
  230. [19:22:13] <jinx> can't hurt to find out
  231. [19:22:15] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  232. [19:22:34] * Phae ponders.
  233. [19:23:28] <thp> Hi, I have a small news page I am switching over to hAtom (for kicks and in order to learn), got a related question:
  234. [19:23:45] <jinx> Phae: hrm. I should really tell my friend off for attempting to steal your skills! In some ways it's a betrayal! :)
  235. [19:24:03] <Phae> shoot thp
  236. [19:24:25] * jinx shoots thp as requested.
  237. [19:24:57] <Phae> my skills are just that leet, jinx. it's only natural. don't be mad at him.
  238. [19:25:02] <thp> The news page is not a blog with inherent categories or related archives, still there's separate sections the newspage covers, like forum or downloads.
  239. [19:25:20] <Phae> rm'k
  240. [19:25:31] <thp> Assuming the mentioned sections are only virtual, what do you link the categories to?
  241. [19:25:57] <thp> Let me rephrase sections to topics, rather
  242. [19:26:07] <thp> So there'S topics, but no actual sections on the site
  243. [19:26:19] <Phae> so... they're like keywords for an article?
  244. [19:26:23] <Phae> or... tags. :)
  245. [19:26:31] <thp> Right
  246. [19:26:53] <thp> The Tails extension for ff doesn't recognise categories on other than links with rel="tag"
  247. [19:26:56] <Phae> but they're vague keywords - like "forum" or "download"?
  248. [19:27:06] <thp> Yes
  249. [19:27:08] * billyjack (n=mikes@65.213.68.242) has joined #microformats
  250. [19:27:17] <Phae> right. the rel-tag is the bit it's looking for
  251. [19:27:23] * fzap (n=fzap@ip94.117.1312A-CUD12K-01.ish.de) has joined #microformats
  252. [19:27:33] <Phae> is the MF wiki down for just me, btw?
  253. [19:27:37] <thp> Yeah, but it seems to be bound to a hyperlink
  254. [19:27:45] * malware (n=mikes@64.80.24.50) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  255. [19:27:51] <Phae> ah, yeah. that's why i asked about the vagueness
  256. [19:28:08] * billyjack is now known as malware
  257. [19:28:16] <thp> The wiki seems to have probs.
  258. [19:28:25] <Phae> :/ annoying. oh well.
  259. [19:28:26] <thp> Heya fzap
  260. [19:28:31] <fzap> hey thp
  261. [19:28:48] <Phae> so the forum, downloads, etc., don't actually exist as pages alone somewhere?
  262. [19:28:49] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has joined #microformats
  263. [19:28:55] <thp> Right
  264. [19:29:09] <Phae> hm. sucks.
  265. [19:29:10] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has left #microformats
  266. [19:29:22] <thp> I wonder if it would be correct to link to the newspage itself, yet it would suck semantically
  267. [19:29:31] <Phae> yeah, that doesn't make sense to me.
  268. [19:30:24] <thp> So I'm bsically trying to implement categories/keywords/tags, make them visible to mf-enabled software, but not suck in the process. Heh
  269. [19:30:37] <Phae> i suppose ideally they should link through to some sort of reference within the site somewhere. it seems like something that would add value anyway, since using seemingly arbritary keywords ilke "forum" might be pretty useless to some without context.
  270. [19:30:41] * danja (n=danja@host222-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  271. [19:30:41] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  272. [19:30:52] * danja (n=danja@host222-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  273. [19:31:44] <Whafro> thoughts on whether or not using h1-h6 in a tag cloud to show weight semantically is good, or bad because the tags aren't headings?
  274. [19:31:53] <Phae> bad. :)
  275. [19:31:55] <jinx> Phae: nah - i'm not mad at him really. future's looking bright for you though - congrats on the offer, even if you don't think it's for you and your 1337 skillz... going afk, see you in the morrow.
  276. [19:32:03] * Loosive is now known as Mr_Elusive
  277. [19:32:13] <Phae> ciao :)
  278. [19:32:34] <thp> Yeah, ideally it should link through to something. Well, if respective separate pages exist, there should be no problem, right?
  279. [19:32:41] <Phae> right.
  280. [19:32:56] <thp> Good.
  281. [19:33:21] <Phae> Whafro: headers have a really clear meaning. using them in a tag cloud is kind of abusing their meaning. a popular way of doing it, but it's a little mark-up heavy, is nesting <em>s
  282. [19:33:39] <Phae> There was a discussion about tagclouds on the uf-discuss
  283. [19:33:46] <Whafro> Phae: ja, that's my initial thought... but it is the only tag that has any semantic non-heirarchical weight... just noticed that Moveable Type does it that way by default
  284. [19:33:51] * fzap (n=fzap@ip94.117.1312A-CUD12K-01.ish.de) Quit ("leaving")
  285. [19:34:07] <Phae> with headers?? ick.
  286. [19:34:10] <Whafro> ya
  287. [19:34:13] <Phae> that sucks.
  288. [19:34:21] <Whafro> my coworker goes "ooh, isn't that clever and great!"
  289. [19:34:27] <Phae> sigh.
  290. [19:34:35] <Whafro> he means well ;)
  291. [19:34:55] <Phae> I was at a screen reader demo last week, on a related note. the blind user was using the headers to navigate pages more easily and get context immediately
  292. [19:35:04] <Phae> imagine if he went to a page with a header tagcloud
  293. [19:35:05] <Phae> :/
  294. [19:35:34] <thp> Are there any real-world uses for microformats like hAtom already? Except for that service mentioned in the wiki which converts hAtom to Atom? (Looking into that) Sorry if that's a stupid question from someone implementing hAtom.
  295. [19:35:44] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  296. [19:35:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  297. [19:35:44] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  298. [19:35:47] <Phae> that's pretty much the main one atm, thp.
  299. [19:35:49] <Whafro> yeah, I was considering dragging JAWS out to check that
  300. [19:35:56] <Phae> hAtom is still very much draft, I suppose
  301. [19:36:10] <Phae> It needs take up on something larger to push someone into writing a proper aggregator, I guess.
  302. [19:36:25] <Phae> Yeah, Whafro :)
  303. [19:37:40] <thp> But, why would you, for example, have someone write an aggregator for hAtom when a lots of blogging software supports Atom already?
  304. [19:37:59] <thp> Because they can, ok.
  305. [19:38:01] <thp> Heh.
  306. [19:38:06] <Phae> Yeah, it's mountains.
  307. [19:38:19] <Phae> It's just to produce the initial feed is easier
  308. [19:38:23] <Phae> you don't need any XML
  309. [19:38:31] <Phae> IT's a publisher first attitude
  310. [19:38:35] <tantek> to encourage DRY
  311. [19:38:36] * mfbot (n=mfbot@69.55.232.130) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  312. [19:38:41] <Phae> hey tantek :)
  313. [19:38:46] <tantek> hey Phae :)
  314. [19:39:08] <thp> What is DRY? I'm German, my English alas isn't perfect
  315. [19:39:20] <hober> don't repeat yourself
  316. [19:39:57] <Phae> It's an acronym.. just means that instead of publishing something twice (i.e in HTML and XML) - you just do it once in HTML
  317. [19:40:17] <thp> I can see a use case there with automagically converting hAtom to Atom, ok, I'm currently hand-crafting an Atom feed for that little news page, tell me about repeating myself, heh.
  318. [19:40:43] <thp> AAh, ok, I was writing that with my nose o the keypboard when you repllied.
  319. [19:40:45] <tantek> Phae, it strikes me as that might be an excellent little page to create on the wiki - http://microformats.org/wiki/dry
  320. [19:40:50] <tantek> wanna give it a shot?
  321. [19:41:01] <Phae> sure
  322. [19:41:08] * Phae gets another homework assignment from tantek
  323. [19:41:36] <Phae> I'll look at it when the wiki starts working ;(
  324. [19:41:48] <tantek> uh-oh
  325. [19:41:49] <AdamCraven> aye, thought it was just me
  326. [19:42:12] <Phae> It was there recently. we were getting change logs in here
  327. [19:42:20] <Phae> died about 30 or 40 mins ago I'd guess.
  328. [19:43:16] <tantek> it just worked for me
  329. [19:43:19] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page
  330. [19:43:25] <Phae> it's back :)
  331. [19:44:01] <AdamCraven> Any of you lot working in London?
  332. [19:47:51] <thp> Still timing out on me :/
  333. [19:48:06] <AdamCraven> gone again
  334. [19:48:20] * Phae doesn't save her edits yet. :)
  335. [19:48:34] * Calum (n=icepickf@82-41-19-93.cable.ubr03.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  336. [19:48:46] * Hayo (n=Hayo@a80-126-105-179.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  337. [19:48:54] <thp> What's the URL for that hAtom>Atom conversion service/tool I read about in the wiki? Does anybody happen to have it handy?
  338. [19:49:04] <Phae> not off the top of my head, sorry
  339. [19:49:08] <Phae> hey guys :)
  340. [19:49:18] <Calum> hello phae :)
  341. [19:49:23] <thp> Ok
  342. [19:49:36] <Phae> I encouraged Calum and Hayo in because we were discussing hAtom.
  343. [19:49:50] <Phae> The query is what really is the point of using hAtom?
  344. [19:50:14] <Hayo> my opinion is that hAtom is utterly redundant. it tries to replace a perfectly good standard.
  345. [19:50:22] <thp> Got it I think: http://lukearno.com/projects/hAtom/
  346. [19:50:33] <Phae> yep. that's the ticket, thp
  347. [19:51:17] <Calum> mf.org is timing out :/
  348. [19:51:22] <Phae> yeah.
  349. [19:51:25] * Phae pokes tantek again.
  350. [19:52:07] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-253-100.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  351. [19:52:39] <Hayo> if you want a single source of data, you can use XML to output whatever flavour of html/xhtml/xmlfeed/rss. so why created a surrogate standard on top of xhtml?
  352. [19:53:02] <Phae> The idea is that most people aren't writing XML documents.
  353. [19:53:12] <Phae> They don't know how.
  354. [19:54:08] <Hayo> but they are using blogging tools and cmsses with support for feeds and html output built in. so...... still redundant.
  355. [19:54:11] <thp> It's easier to implement for developers? I, for instance, don't have a XML basis from which to convert anything to. I use XHTML and marking up with hAtom then have it translated by a CMS would reduce redundancy in my book
  356. [19:54:22] <Phae> still means that they're publishing something twice.
  357. [19:54:32] <Hayo> but why is that _bad_?
  358. [19:55:08] <Phae> Overheads.
  359. [19:55:14] <Phae> It's double maintainance.
  360. [19:55:47] <Hayo> ah, but i use my feed as a channel in itself. it doesn't show the same content as my news pages.
  361. [19:55:51] * neuraxon77 (n=craig@cust1608.vic01.dataco.com.au) Quit (Connection timed out)
  362. [19:56:35] <Phae> Oh? So subscribers have differing content? Or do you just mean in a snippet way?
  363. [19:56:44] <Hayo> snippet way.
  364. [19:56:58] <Hayo> they get a summary of the article.
  365. [19:57:20] <Phae> hAtom does that.
  366. [19:58:30] <Phae> Anyway. If you're happy publishing that way, that's cool. :) No one is saying you've gotta change. It's just making publisher perhaps easier for some people, though.
  367. [19:58:45] <Phae> hAtom maps to Atom so that the two can be somewhat interchangable.
  368. [19:59:01] <Hayo> speaking of overheads; you would require people to load your entire html page in their reader, thus making it slower then a full xml only feed.
  369. [19:59:11] <Hayo> yeah, i agree. but i like to argue :D
  370. [19:59:52] <Phae> ;P
  371. [20:00:56] <Hayo> i like to keep my code clean and dedicated, which usually means keeping mf out of them ;)
  372. [20:01:14] <Phae> If you say so, Hayo :P
  373. [20:01:32] <Hayo> :D
  374. [20:13:26] <thp> Have a nice remaining day. Laters.
  375. [20:13:29] <thp> :)
  376. [20:13:36] <Hayo> byes :)
  377. [20:13:39] * thp (n=thp@i577A409C.versanet.de) Quit ("Verlassend")
  378. [20:19:29] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@207.47.11.17.static.nextweb.net) has joined #microformats
  379. [20:19:49] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  380. [20:21:08] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  381. [20:35:13] * Hayo (n=Hayo@a80-126-105-179.adsl.xs4all.nl) has left #microformats
  382. [20:54:18] <DanC> anybody here use ff2 on debian sid? Do I want to upgrade from ff1.5?
  383. [20:55:18] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) has joined #microformats
  384. [21:00:45] * Calum (n=icepickf@82-41-19-93.cable.ubr03.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) has left #microformats
  385. [21:12:39] * popov (n=ppopov@media.rc.edu) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  386. [21:13:10] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  387. [21:13:10] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  388. [21:15:38] * malware (n=mikes@65.213.68.242) Quit ("Get behind me, satan.")
  389. [21:30:25] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) Quit ("Leaving")
  390. [21:42:58] * DanC (n=connolly@pdpc/supporter/active/DanC) Quit ("reboot/software update")
  391. [21:50:52] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  392. [22:02:49] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
  393. [22:07:09] <tantek> wiki etc. seems to be back up and functioning - anyone still having issues?
  394. [22:07:23] * remi (n=remi@dsl-137-29.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
  395. [22:07:23] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  396. [22:37:23] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
  397. [22:37:23] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  398. [22:41:08] <tantek> hi Phae - thanks for writing up the DRY page
  399. [22:42:26] <Phae> It's not really yet. I just haven't thought of anything better right now. I might look at other people's descriptions of DRY.
  400. [22:44:02] <tantek> it was exactly what i was asking for - just what u said in teh channel summarized etc.
  401. [22:44:16] * popov (n=ppopov@media.rc.edu) has joined #microformats
  402. [22:44:21] <Phae> well, that's good.
  403. [22:56:27] <Phae> night all.
  404. [22:56:31] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
  405. [23:02:23] <Hixie> hello
  406. [23:02:25] <Hixie> quick question
  407. [23:02:31] <tantek> hello Hixie
  408. [23:02:34] <Hixie> you can have hCard blobs inside hCalendar events, right?
  409. [23:02:45] <tantek> yes of course
  410. [23:02:48] <tantek> specifically
  411. [23:03:03] <tantek> location is often marked up with hCard
  412. [23:03:16] <KevinMarks> afternoon
  413. [23:03:17] <tantek> and you can just say "hCards"
  414. [23:03:20] <Hixie> is there an unambiguous way to have just one hCard somewhere in the document, and then have a series of events all with the same location somehow refer to that location?
  415. [23:03:21] <tantek> instead of "hCard blogs"
  416. [23:03:24] <tantek> blobs
  417. [23:03:33] * tantek tries to type blobs and can't help but type blogs - heh
  418. [23:03:36] <KevinMarks> just done a speedgeeking demo session on Microformats at the internet identity workshop
  419. [23:03:41] <KevinMarks> croak
  420. [23:03:41] <tantek> Hixie, yes
  421. [23:04:19] <tantek> KevinMarks - you croaked?
  422. [23:04:22] <tantek> like a frog?
  423. [23:04:23] <Hixie> tantek: what's the syntax for that?
  424. [23:04:36] <tantek> Hixie see include-pattern
  425. [23:04:52] <KevinMarks> i have a frog in my throat after doing 9 microformats demos in a row
  426. [23:04:53] * Hixie looks
  427. [23:04:57] * tantek realizes include-pattern might be something worthy of inclusion directly into HTML5
  428. [23:05:26] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern
  429. [23:05:30] <Hixie> oh interesting
  430. [23:05:35] <tantek> yeah
  431. [23:05:35] <Hixie> so using <object>
  432. [23:05:40] <tantek> and we've iterated with practical examples
  433. [23:05:41] <tantek> well not really
  434. [23:05:54] <Hixie> or <a>
  435. [23:05:54] <Hixie> hmm
  436. [23:05:54] <tantek> it causes too many problems in *some* browsers <cough>Safari/KHTML</cough>
  437. [23:06:01] <tantek> object that is
  438. [23:06:02] <tantek> ahem
  439. [23:06:25] <tantek> Hixie see: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback
  440. [23:06:27] <tantek> for the ugly details
  441. [23:06:30] <Hixie> would it make sense for HTML5 to have an attribute that is specifically for saying "this subtree has this relation to that subtree of the same document"?
  442. [23:06:35] <KevinMarks> doesn't object trigger IE to warn now?
  443. [23:06:38] * Hixie reads the ugly details
  444. [23:06:54] <tantek> Hixie, I wouldn't generalize to "relation"
  445. [23:07:09] <tantek> just stick with adding "include"
  446. [23:07:21] <tantek> as we have demonstrated actual live/real-world utility for "include" fragments like that
  447. [23:07:26] <Hixie> interesting
  448. [23:07:38] <tantek> yeah, retarded browsers
  449. [23:08:10] <Hixie> no i meant interesting to just need an "include"
  450. [23:08:23] <Azathoth> good morning
  451. [23:08:28] <tantek> right - we prefer to limit functionality to only what we have shown is necessary/useful
  452. [23:08:40] <tantek> as opposed to generalizing to whatever XML etc. architects come up with
  453. [23:08:49] <tantek> as mathematically/theoretically/Turing complete or whatever
  454. [23:09:29] <Hixie> would an empty <include ref="idref"/> be the kind of thing you want?
  455. [23:09:37] <Hixie> or an about="" attribute on all elements?
  456. [23:09:38] <Hixie> or?
  457. [23:10:54] <Hixie> or maybe we can piggyback this on a more generic cross-reference mechanism
  458. [23:11:14] <tantek> Hixie, always be aware of anyone saying "more generic"
  459. [23:11:23] <tantek> they are probably trying to sell you a white paper
  460. [23:11:26] <tantek> ;)
  461. [23:11:27] <Hixie> <p>... see <xref to="idref">earlier</xref> for more information</p>
  462. [23:11:46] <Hixie> where "earlier" gets generated-content-ed into "page 6" or something
  463. [23:12:02] * tantek warns Hixie of feature creep.
  464. [23:12:12] <tantek> without real-world examples
  465. [23:12:13] <Hixie> and in microformats you would have <xref to="myvcard">me</xref>
  466. [23:12:15] <Hixie> or some such
  467. [23:12:25] * tantek eschews XML brainstorming.
  468. [23:12:56] <Hixie> we've had a lot of use cases brought forward for cross-references, i'm just trying to see if i can hit two birds with one stone here
  469. [23:13:14] <Hixie> so in fact i'm trying to keep it simpler and avoid feature creep
  470. [23:13:34] <Hixie> no need to keep reminding me of my own design principles :-)
  471. [23:14:38] <Hixie> seems like this is really a hyperlink
  472. [23:14:52] <Hixie> <a href="#myvcard">me</a>
  473. [23:15:11] * tantek warns Hixie beware of XLink.
  474. [23:16:05] <Hixie> any chance you could give positive suggestions instead of warnings? :-)
  475. [23:16:22] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  476. [23:18:05] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has joined #microformats
  477. [23:19:22] <tantek> require those bringing forward use cases to document them with *actual* URLs to *real world* examples on the web and not just synthetic examples constructed for the sake of attempting to prove a use case
  478. [23:19:55] * remi (n=remi@dsl-137-29.aei.ca) Quit (Connection timed out)
  479. [23:20:00] * shawn (n=shawn@208.68.64.75) has joined #microformats
  480. [23:23:48] <tantek> Hixie, another requirement we are considering (actually, have already considered, and just need to write up in the process), is to require folks who want to propose new microformats to first implement existing microformats on their sites.
  481. [23:23:58] <tantek> The HTML5 equivalent might be for example
  482. [23:24:41] <Hixie> my philosophy is that all feedback is welcome, and i'll ignore the crap; your feedback seems to be that crap feedback is not welcome.
  483. [23:24:51] <Hixie> both have the same end-result
  484. [23:24:58] <tantek> from a prioritization perspective yes
  485. [23:25:00] <Hixie> mine will get more feedback overall though :-)
  486. [23:25:07] <tantek> crap feedback falls below the deserves a reply threshold
  487. [23:25:12] <Hixie> since i'm employed to work on this fulltime i can probably afford the more expensive method
  488. [23:25:26] <tantek> not a matter of affording
  489. [23:25:28] <tantek> but rather return on investment
  490. [23:25:41] <Hixie> i can afford to invest more, then :-)
  491. [23:25:45] <Hixie> for the same return
  492. [23:26:05] <tantek> what increased marginal returns are you seeing in exchange for your additional marginal costs?
  493. [23:26:23] <tantek> especially given that you have bottlenecked editing the spec with yourself ;)
  494. [23:26:45] <Hixie> imho the whatwg spec is more detailed, for one :-)
  495. [23:27:29] <tantek> more detailed than it would otherwise be? sure.
  496. [23:28:22] <tantek> so perhaps The HTML5 equivalent of the above microformats proposal requirement might be to require those that are requesting new features etc. to first support proper semantic HTML 4.01 strict on their pages (or XHTML 1.0 strict) before being allowed to propose new features
  497. [23:29:01] <Hixie> that would basically mean nobody could contribute
  498. [23:29:01] <tantek> I would bet that lots of people propose HTML5 features out of ignorance (e.g. features that already exist in HTML4)
  499. [23:29:39] <tantek> if they can't be bothered to support HTML4.01 on their own pages, then how can expect that ANYONE will be bothered to support their fancy new feature request in HTML5 ever?
  500. [23:33:18] <tantek> it serves as a good filter against all the wishful theoreticians that wish the world would be a cleaner more structured place but can't be bothered to clean their own mess on their own websites
  501. [23:36:59] * RCanine (n=ryan@wuser96-shapiro.umnet.umich.edu) has joined #microformats
  502. [23:45:36] * kwijibo (n=keithale@87.112.69.80.bbplus.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  503. [23:53:39] <Hixie> tantek: actually most people haven't been giving feedback like that
  504. [23:54:07] <tantek> it's specifically the "I want a feature/tag/attribute to do this!" type feedback.
  505. [23:54:33] <Hixie> that's been pretty rare

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