IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-03-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [11:13:38] <mfbot>
[[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14191 * AndyMabbett * (+591) Introduction - E.O Wilson's wish
- [11:14:09] <mfbot>
[[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14192 * AndyMabbett * (-9) Introduction - tweak
- [11:14:25] <mfbot>
[[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14193 * AndyMabbett * (-2) Introduction -
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- [11:18:06] <mfbot>
[[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14194 * AndyMabbett * (+214) Introduction - quote
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- [11:18:57] <mfbot>
[[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14195 * AndyMabbett * (-24) Introduction - copy edit
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- [11:29:34] <mfbot>
[[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14196 * AndyMabbett * (+3) Introduction - fmt
- [11:30:15] <mfbot>
[[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14197 * AndyMabbett * (+6) Introduction - embolden
- [11:31:21] <mfbot>
[[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14198 * AndyMabbett * (-4) Proposal - copy edit
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- [11:36:27] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=14199 * AbsaLoM * (+89) Examples in the wild -
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- [12:01:24] <mfbot>
[[vote-links-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links-ja&diff=0&oldid=14200 * Vantguarde * (+2) 廃止された案: rel属性を用いたVote Links -
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- [13:23:43] <mfbot>
[[history-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-examples&diff=0&oldid=14201 * AndyMabbett * (+102) TimeSearch
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[[history-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-examples&diff=0&oldid=14202 * AndyMabbett * (+123) bullt lists; de-personalise
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- [18:18:49] * bewest has followed Hixie's instructions and is in the queue to be approved for HTML WG :-)
- [18:19:25] <Hixie>
cool!
- [18:19:49] <bewest>
yeah, your posts were pretty helpful
- [18:20:11] <ianloic>
html is dead
- [18:20:24] <Hixie>
it is?
- [18:20:29] <ianloic>
yeah
- [18:20:32] <ianloic>
we're all on twitter now
- [18:20:39] <Hixie>
doesn't twitter _use_ html?
- [18:20:40] <ianloic>
@syntax dude
- [18:20:48] <ianloic>
no, html is filtered out
- [18:20:54] <ianloic>
:)
- [18:21:02] <Hixie>
http://twitter.com/ looks like an html page to me
- [18:21:08] <bewest>
the w3 vision seems to indicate that the strategy for market adoption is new features
- [18:21:28] <Hixie>
it does?
- [18:21:35] <bewest>
dunno... my reading of the charter
- [18:21:46] <Hixie>
whatwg's strategy is to make back compat clarifications and new features be equally important
- [18:23:18] <bewest>
ah... my reading didn't indicate such an egalitarian stance
- [18:24:42] <bewest>
I read some kind of vision doc
- [18:24:51] <bewest>
having trouble locating it again
- [18:24:56] <bewest>
maybe it doesn't matter
- [18:25:23] <Hixie>
http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html
- [18:25:31] <Hixie>
we need new features
- [18:25:34] <Hixie>
they have to be backwards compatible
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- [18:28:30] <bewest>
yeah I've read that
- [18:29:50] <bewest>
aha
- [18:29:50] <bewest>
Having new language features, there is an incentive for content authors to use it; and having client-side implementations means that there is the possibility to really use it.
- [18:29:56] <bewest>
http://www.w3.org/2007/03/vision.html
- [18:30:10] <bewest>
last sentence of approach no 3
- [18:30:22] <Hixie>
ah yes, their "we're on crack" document
- [18:30:42] <bewest>
I could be just picking nits, but I'm not convinced new features drives adoption
- [18:30:48] <tantek>
new language features are not sufficient incentive for content authors to use it, much less learn it
- [18:30:56] <Hixie>
depends on the features
- [18:31:04] <Hixie>
but that's not the point
- [18:31:09] <Hixie>
you're looking at this the wrong way
- [18:31:09] <tantek>
depends on the *implementations* of the features ;)
- [18:31:13] <Hixie>
adpotion is not the goal
- [18:31:17] <Hixie>
adoption rather
- [18:31:42] <Hixie>
the goal is to address author needs
- [18:31:46] <bewest>
yes
- [18:31:59] * tantek is busy prepping with panelists for http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of
- [18:31:59] <bewest>
adoption is driven by responding to and correcting previous faults
- [18:32:06] * tantek agrees with Hixie on author needs.
- [18:32:07] <bewest>
not by producing new features
- [18:32:28] <Hixie>
bewest: previous faults might include lack of features
- [18:32:38] <bewest>
perhaps
- [18:32:38] <bewest>
sure
- [18:32:52] <Hixie>
but i don't understand why we would care about adoption in and of itself
- [18:33:01] <bewest>
hmmm
- [18:33:19] <Hixie>
adoption is what you care about when you're trying to make money or something like that
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- [18:33:38] <Hixie>
writing a spec for HTML is not about making money, it's about making humanity have better communication tools
- [18:34:25] <bewest>
right
- [18:35:20] <bewest>
if no one uses the tools, what makes enabling?
- [18:35:50] <bewest>
I assumed planning for adoption would be an important part of defining a successful outcome
- [18:36:16] <Hixie>
if no one uses the tools, the tools sucked.
- [18:36:39] <Hixie>
you don't write specs to induce adoption. you write specs to fit the needs, and adoption happens.
- [18:38:19] <bewest>
sounds good
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- [18:39:36] <bewest>
anyway, it sounds to me like the whatwg goal is primarily to resolve faults, with a secondary goal of adding new features as necessary, while the w3 approach is primarily to add features with a secondary goal of resolving faults
- [18:40:10] <Hixie>
nope
- [18:40:18] <bewest>
ah
- [18:40:28] <Hixie>
the whatwg considers fixing problems and adding new features to be equally important
- [18:40:35] <Hixie>
but only because it's not looked at that way
- [18:40:47] <Hixie>
really the whatwg has just one goal: address author needs
- [18:41:00] <tommorris>
The WhatWG have successfully managed to prevent us from ever getting rid of SGML. ;)
- [18:41:35] <bewest>
good goal
- [18:41:38] <Hixie>
bewest: authors need (through various levels of indirection) the specs to be more precise, and certain missing features to be added
- [18:41:43] <Hixie>
tommorris: uh
- [18:41:48] <Hixie>
tommorris: whatwg doesn't use sgml
- [18:42:02] <tommorris>
By SGML, I mean HTML not XHTML
- [18:42:31] * bewest isn't sure HTML5 is defined using SGML
- [18:43:04] <tommorris>
XML well-formedness should be part of the next HTML
- [18:43:14] <Hixie>
HTML5 has nothing to do with SGML
- [18:43:19] <Hixie>
it's its own language
- [18:43:25] <Hixie>
and HTML5 allows you to use XML if you want
- [18:43:53] <Hixie>
and "XML well formedness", by which i assume you mean "syntax rules", have been present in HTML for more than a decade
- [18:44:00] <bewest>
right
- [18:44:05] <Hixie>
HTML5 actually makes it even more precise by defining exactly what is a syntax error
- [18:44:10] <tommorris>
No. <br> is not acceptable.
- [18:44:14] <tommorris>
<p> without closing tags.
- [18:44:17] <Hixie>
HTML5 allows <br/>
- [18:44:21] <Hixie>
<p> can have closing tags
- [18:44:32] <tommorris>
Yes, it allows it. It should *require* it
- [18:44:37] <Hixie>
why?
- [18:44:46] <Hixie>
it's not ambiguous, it's exactly defined when the </p> is implied
- [18:44:49] <tommorris>
Because then all the XML tools can read it
- [18:45:03] <Hixie>
if you want to use XML tools, just stick an HTML5 parser on the front
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- [18:45:12] <Hixie>
HTML5 defines a parser algorithm that can output an XML tree
- [18:45:19] <Hixie>
html5lib already implements this for python
- [18:45:23] <Hixie>
and can be used today
- [18:45:32] <Hixie>
you can also just use XHTML5 if you really want
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- [18:45:34] <Hixie>
it's fully XML
- [18:46:09] <tommorris>
It's just an pain in the arse.
- [18:46:13] <tommorris>
s/an/a
- [18:46:17] <gsnedders>
tommorris: with that argument I should be able to use a SGML parser for XML documents
- [18:46:26] <bewest>
tommorris: that's the job :-)
- [18:46:33] <gsnedders>
tommorris: I should be able to use SGML tools with XML!
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- [18:48:11] <gsnedders>
tommorris: and how do you propose we should parse current HTML documents? Should UAs just stop supporting them?
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- [18:51:59] <tommorris>
gsnedders: No, just a long term goal.
- [18:52:14] <tommorris>
The long term goal of HTML should be towards XML.
- [18:52:26] <bewest>
the other thing that bugs me a bit is that microsoft seems a bit absent from the whatwg discussion, but a microsoft person is the co-chair for the HTML WG
- [18:52:37] <bewest>
I've never heard of the co-chair before
- [18:52:55] <Hixie>
you've never heard of chris wilson?
- [18:52:57] <gsnedders>
bewest: Chris Wilson? He was until recently head of IE
- [18:53:00] <bewest>
oh
- [18:53:03] <bewest>
then I have
- [18:53:06] <bewest>
and just didn't recognize it
- [18:53:08] <bewest>
him
- [18:53:30] <gsnedders>
(he moved down to a lower role so he could do more actual development)
- [18:53:43] <bewest>
I guess everything's dandy then
- [18:54:20] <bewest>
although it's hard to envision microsoft playing nicely with the other browser vendors
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[[footnotes-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=footnotes-examples&diff=0&oldid=14203 * JeremyBoggs * (+152) Weblogs -
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[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=14204 * JazzSlider * (+229) New Examples -
- [19:18:07] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=14205 * JazzSlider * (+207) New Examples -
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[[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14206 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Introduction - '
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[[rel-tag]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag&diff=0&oldid=14207 * JazzSlider * (+113) Examples in the Wild -
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[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=14208 * JazzSlider * (+234) Examples in the wild -
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[[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=14209 * Cgriego * (+31) Attending - Added myself.
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[[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=14210 * Mike Linksvayer * (+42) Attending - "what are these new buttons on top of my browser" -- mkaply, right now
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- [20:53:47] <mfbot>
[[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=14211 * AlexBischoff * (+1044) Added "How come microformats sometimes to linger as Drafts?"
- [20:55:41] <bewest>
hmmm
- [20:55:47] <bewest>
I would have asked "compared to what?"
- [20:58:52] <KevinMarks>
I was thinking about this too - should we have something like the old iETF rule of 3 independent interoperating implementations for moving from draft to spec?
- [20:59:38] <bewest>
w3 has a similar rule don't they?
- [20:59:43] <bewest>
they need 2 to move to CR?
- [20:59:52] <KevinMarks>
not sure
- [21:00:04] <bewest>
I'm not totally sure either
- [21:00:21] <KevinMarks>
I think the IETF one was 2 interoperating implementations based on the spec (ie not counting the one it claimed to document)
- [21:00:57] <gsnedders>
bewest: the W3C don't. some W3C WGs do, though
- [21:01:07] <gsnedders>
the HTML WG has one for REC, IIRC
- [21:02:45] <gsnedders>
mmm… it was taken out of the charter
- [21:04:04] <bewest>
huh... yeah, I can't find it http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#Recs
- [21:05:48] <KevinMarks>
IETF goes from proposed to draft with two implementations "A specification from which at least two independent and interoperable
- [21:05:48] <KevinMarks>
implementations from different code bases have been developed, and
- [21:05:48] <KevinMarks>
for which sufficient successful operational experience has been
- [21:05:48] <KevinMarks>
obtained, may be elevated to the "Draft Standard" level."
- [21:05:51] <danja>
what would be an interoperating implementation for a microformat spec?
- [21:06:26] <KevinMarks>
we'd need to define it carefully
- [21:06:48] <KevinMarks>
presumably more than one publisher and more than one parser
- [21:07:21] <bewest>
depends on the use case for the format
- [21:07:38] <bewest>
funny thing is that we often adopt new use cases
- [21:07:51] <KevinMarks>
ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/bcp/bcp9.txt 4.1
- [21:08:31] <danja>
so bewest, what would an interoperating implementation for say hCard look like?
- [21:10:39] <bewest>
dunno :-)
- [21:10:42] <bewest>
is danja danny ayers?
- [21:10:55] <danja>
yup
- [21:11:14] <bewest>
yeah, I don't know
- [21:11:15] <danja>
j = john
- [21:11:20] <bewest>
ah
- [21:11:24] <bewest>
e = elrod
- [21:11:38] <danja>
aha
- [21:11:55] <bewest>
but I also moved from New Jersey to California
- [21:12:11] <danja>
...ok
- [21:12:31] <danja>
not waseast then
- [21:13:59] <KevinMarks>
for hCard, consistent transformation to vcf is the obvious test - do two tools interpret the same published data the same way?
- [21:14:00] <danja>
the idea of using implementations for shifting from draft status sounds good
- [21:14:49] <danja>
right
- [21:15:59] <danja>
has there been any progress around relax ng or whatever for schemas?
- [21:17:06] <bewest>
danja: I saw some interesting blog posts, but I think one of them was on your blog
- [21:17:56] <danja>
heh, ok...I think that was a while ago - someone (Norm Walsh?) saying it was hard I think...
- [21:18:09] <bewest>
I recently saw one technique using relax NG + schematron
- [21:18:29] <KevinMarks>
hm, I'm seeing some oddness with Operator and the DST change
- [21:18:52] <danja>
oh right, I hear schematron is mighty versatile
- [21:23:11] <ianloic>
bewest, oh really - I should go hunt that down
- [21:23:44] <ianloic>
bewest, I've been trying to work out what kind of schemas could be used to specify microformats
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- [21:27:06] * danja wonders if Hixie uses any schema languages for HTML5
- [21:27:46] <Hixie>
the HTML5 spec itself doesn't, just like it doesn't recommend C++ vs Java for an implementation language :-)
- [21:28:06] <Hixie>
anyone can write a schema though, and several people have
- [21:28:49] <danja>
using what schema languages? or just ebnf or something?
- [21:29:18] <Hixie>
relaxng, schematron, etc
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- [21:32:58] <danja>
but won't that have to be after mapping to xml..?
- [21:34:01] <Hixie>
you can use an html5 parser to get a DOM and then treat the DOM like an XML tree
- [21:34:10] <Hixie>
see henri's thesis for an example of this
- [21:34:17] <Hixie>
(he posted it to the list recently)
- [21:34:37] <danja>
sounds interesting
- [21:35:06] <danja>
though does seem to rely on the magic of the parser
- [21:35:17] <Hixie>
what do you mean by "magic"?
- [21:36:02] <danja>
the grammar, I suppose
- [21:39:20] <danja>
if you wanted to build a validator you'd have to prove the parser correctness first
- [21:40:21] <danja>
I guess it's the same for xml, just fewer rules
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- [22:24:14] <bewest>
same thing for microformats btw
- [22:24:23] <bewest>
you use xslt to move it to some other syntax
- [22:24:28] <bewest>
such as XML or vcf or whatever
- [22:24:31] <bewest>
then validate /that/
- [22:25:57] <bewest>
ianloic, Hixie, danja, validating microformats using schematron + relaxng http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog/2277_Validating_microformats.item
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- [22:27:06] <KevinMarks>
well, something ryan said a while back makes sense to me
- [22:27:19] <KevinMarks>
defining JSON structs that microformats map to
- [22:27:35] <KevinMarks>
and validating the transformations match
- [22:27:58] <bewest>
yeah, perhaps
- [22:28:14] <bewest>
I did a json mapping of hcard that I've posted around a bunch
- [22:28:21] <ianloic>
KevinMarks, that's how my test cases for my half-assed microformats parser works: http://bzr.ianloic.com/nanoformats-trunk/nf-test-hcard.html
- [22:28:29] <bewest>
again, that only describes the basic structure
- [22:28:45] <ianloic>
but you need to decide on a mapping
- [22:28:53] <bewest>
eric's technique is interesting because it uses a hybrid approach: one to describe structure, and then another for "mapping" I guess
- [22:30:43] <KevinMarks>
as microformats are at heart about schema convergence, a JSON mapping seems like a reasonably language neutral test for parsers
- [22:31:31] <bewest>
KevinMarks: as opposed to relaxNG?
- [22:31:36] <KevinMarks>
some hCalendar tests would be good
- [22:31:38] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [22:31:41] <bewest>
hmmm
- [22:31:43] <bewest>
why?
- [22:31:45] <KevinMarks>
or in parallel to
- [22:31:48] <bewest>
ah
- [22:31:49] <bewest>
hmmm
- [22:31:57] <bewest>
should we use two?
- [22:32:03] <bewest>
would one of them be normative?
- [22:32:15] <bewest>
hmmm
- [22:32:19] <KevinMarks>
I like ian's test layout
- [22:33:22] <bewest>
yeah, that's pretty nice
- [22:33:22] <KevinMarks>
relaxNG is nice for peopel who are XMl-focused
- [22:33:23] <bewest>
um
- [22:33:48] <bewest>
I see an "expected:"
- [22:33:53] <bewest>
is there a "got:" that I'm missing?
- [22:34:07] <ianloic>
bear, it's green if it got what it expected
- [22:34:09] <bewest>
ianloic: have you seen http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js ?
- [22:34:10] <ianloic>
er
- [22:34:12] <ianloic>
bewest,
- [22:34:28] <ianloic>
I also haven't touched this code in 6 months, its buggy and incomplete :)
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- [22:35:01] <bewest>
ianloic: I haven't touched hcard_structure in about a year
- [22:35:11] <ianloic>
bewest, nice, that's cool - it doesn't seem to handle the implied stuff but it looks nice
- [22:35:35] <bewest>
literally: http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js
- [22:35:37] <bewest>
oops
- [22:35:41] <bewest>
Last-Modified: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:03:02 GMT
- [22:35:57] <ianloic>
bewest, my version of that is in here: http://bzr.ianloic.com/nanoformats-trunk/nf-formats.js, not as pretty
- [22:36:02] <ianloic>
bewest, "about a year" :)
- [22:36:27] <bewest>
ianloic: mkaply also has a similar version, but it mixes executable code
- [22:36:34] <bewest>
oh yours does too
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- [22:36:49] <bewest>
ah mine isn't a parser
- [22:36:52] <bewest>
it's just a description
- [22:36:53] <ianloic>
bewest, mine depends less on code than mkaply's
- [22:37:05] <KevinMarks>
it reminds me of markp's method for specifiying the feedparser tests
- [22:37:30] <ianloic>
bewest, and any time I hit a case where code was required I considered that either my schema language was deficient or I the format was specified poorly
- [22:39:12] <KevinMarks>
eg feed://feedparser.org/tests/wellformed/atom/entry_content_value.xml
- [22:40:32] <KevinMarks>
we could converge these to give a way to specify parser test cases that are valid HTML, and specify their results as JSON in the same document
- [22:41:07] * ianloic nods.
- [22:41:28] <ianloic>
we could have the json in a text node
- [22:42:02] <KevinMarks>
or in <script class="expected">
- [22:42:18] <KevinMarks>
eg
- [22:42:19] <ianloic>
<div class="testcase"><div class="microformat">...</div><div class="json">...</div></div> style
- [22:42:21] <ianloic>
yeah
- [22:42:22] <ianloic>
somethign
- [22:43:08] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=14212 * Tantek * (+220) sorted some attendees, made a few comments
- [22:46:45] <bewest>
the thing that bothers me about using json as a schema language is that it hasn't been peer reviewed for that use in the same way other schema languages have
- [22:46:53] <bewest>
I think that was ryan's issue as well
- [22:48:22] <bewest>
so if someone were to collect a list of issues
- [22:48:26] <bewest>
would it go something like this:
- [22:48:45] <bewest>
1.) should we use a schema language to test implementations of microformat parsers?
- [22:49:09] <bewest>
2.) should we use json as a schema language?
- [22:49:22] <bewest>
something along those lines?
- [22:51:09] <ianloic>
well, I think json doesn't nececarilly make a good schema language but it makes a good language for expressing the canonical form of hcard dat
- [22:51:10] <ianloic>
a
- [22:51:30] <ianloic>
the schema is a harder one
- [22:51:37] * ajturner_ is now known as ajturner
- [22:52:14] <ianloic>
I'll come back to the hAtom entry title example and challenge you to express that accurately in a schema language that isn't turing complete :)
- [22:56:13] <KevinMarks>
thats what I meant
- [22:56:22] <KevinMarks>
expressing the expected results
- [22:56:38] <KevinMarks>
not the metastructure
- [22:59:36] * bear is now known as bear_afk
- [23:00:55] <bewest>
hmmm
- [23:01:16] <ianloic>
I mean we could use xml or s-expressions but in this web2.0 world json is a handy choice
- [23:01:31] <bewest>
so should tests using json to express results be considered normative?
- [23:03:56] <ianloic>
for parsers? no, but if implementors start using it then we could end up with a good size test-suite pretty quickly
- [23:04:03] <ianloic>
or perhaps it should
- [23:04:10] * ianloic shrugs.l
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- [23:08:16] <KevinMarks>
what would prevent it being normative?
- [23:09:25] * bewest shrugs
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- [23:19:06] * ianloic shrugs.
- [23:19:21] <ianloic>
I'm not good at these policy questions
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