IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-03-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  55. [11:13:38] <mfbot> [[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14191 * AndyMabbett * (+591) Introduction - E.O Wilson's wish
  56. [11:14:09] <mfbot> [[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14192 * AndyMabbett * (-9) Introduction - tweak
  57. [11:14:25] <mfbot> [[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14193 * AndyMabbett * (-2) Introduction -
  58. [11:17:47] * charlvn_ (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) Quit ("Leaving")
  59. [11:18:06] <mfbot> [[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14194 * AndyMabbett * (+214) Introduction - quote
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  61. [11:18:57] <mfbot> [[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14195 * AndyMabbett * (-24) Introduction - copy edit
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  63. [11:29:34] <mfbot> [[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14196 * AndyMabbett * (+3) Introduction - fmt
  64. [11:30:15] <mfbot> [[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14197 * AndyMabbett * (+6) Introduction - embolden
  65. [11:31:21] <mfbot> [[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14198 * AndyMabbett * (-4) Proposal - copy edit
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  67. [11:36:27] <mfbot> [[hatom]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=14199 * AbsaLoM * (+89) Examples in the wild -
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  74. [12:01:24] <mfbot> [[vote-links-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links-ja&diff=0&oldid=14200 * Vantguarde * (+2) 廃止された案: rel属性を用いたVote Links -
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  93. [13:23:43] <mfbot> [[history-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-examples&diff=0&oldid=14201 * AndyMabbett * (+102) TimeSearch
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  105. [14:18:32] <mfbot> [[history-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-examples&diff=0&oldid=14202 * AndyMabbett * (+123) bullt lists; de-personalise
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  179. [18:18:49] * bewest has followed Hixie's instructions and is in the queue to be approved for HTML WG :-)
  180. [18:19:25] <Hixie> cool!
  181. [18:19:49] <bewest> yeah, your posts were pretty helpful
  182. [18:20:11] <ianloic> html is dead
  183. [18:20:24] <Hixie> it is?
  184. [18:20:29] <ianloic> yeah
  185. [18:20:32] <ianloic> we're all on twitter now
  186. [18:20:39] <Hixie> doesn't twitter _use_ html?
  187. [18:20:40] <ianloic> @syntax dude
  188. [18:20:48] <ianloic> no, html is filtered out
  189. [18:20:54] <ianloic> :)
  190. [18:21:02] <Hixie> http://twitter.com/ looks like an html page to me
  191. [18:21:08] <bewest> the w3 vision seems to indicate that the strategy for market adoption is new features
  192. [18:21:28] <Hixie> it does?
  193. [18:21:35] <bewest> dunno... my reading of the charter
  194. [18:21:46] <Hixie> whatwg's strategy is to make back compat clarifications and new features be equally important
  195. [18:23:18] <bewest> ah... my reading didn't indicate such an egalitarian stance
  196. [18:24:42] <bewest> I read some kind of vision doc
  197. [18:24:51] <bewest> having trouble locating it again
  198. [18:24:56] <bewest> maybe it doesn't matter
  199. [18:25:23] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html
  200. [18:25:31] <Hixie> we need new features
  201. [18:25:34] <Hixie> they have to be backwards compatible
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  205. [18:28:30] <bewest> yeah I've read that
  206. [18:29:50] <bewest> aha
  207. [18:29:50] <bewest> Having new language features, there is an incentive for content authors to use it; and having client-side implementations means that there is the possibility to really use it.
  208. [18:29:56] <bewest> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/vision.html
  209. [18:30:10] <bewest> last sentence of approach no 3
  210. [18:30:22] <Hixie> ah yes, their "we're on crack" document
  211. [18:30:42] <bewest> I could be just picking nits, but I'm not convinced new features drives adoption
  212. [18:30:48] <tantek> new language features are not sufficient incentive for content authors to use it, much less learn it
  213. [18:30:56] <Hixie> depends on the features
  214. [18:31:04] <Hixie> but that's not the point
  215. [18:31:09] <Hixie> you're looking at this the wrong way
  216. [18:31:09] <tantek> depends on the *implementations* of the features ;)
  217. [18:31:13] <Hixie> adpotion is not the goal
  218. [18:31:17] <Hixie> adoption rather
  219. [18:31:42] <Hixie> the goal is to address author needs
  220. [18:31:46] <bewest> yes
  221. [18:31:59] * tantek is busy prepping with panelists for http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of
  222. [18:31:59] <bewest> adoption is driven by responding to and correcting previous faults
  223. [18:32:06] * tantek agrees with Hixie on author needs.
  224. [18:32:07] <bewest> not by producing new features
  225. [18:32:28] <Hixie> bewest: previous faults might include lack of features
  226. [18:32:38] <bewest> perhaps
  227. [18:32:38] <bewest> sure
  228. [18:32:52] <Hixie> but i don't understand why we would care about adoption in and of itself
  229. [18:33:01] <bewest> hmmm
  230. [18:33:19] <Hixie> adoption is what you care about when you're trying to make money or something like that
  231. [18:33:19] * mbradley (n=chatzill@dasasob.nokia.com) has joined #microformats
  232. [18:33:38] <Hixie> writing a spec for HTML is not about making money, it's about making humanity have better communication tools
  233. [18:34:25] <bewest> right
  234. [18:35:20] <bewest> if no one uses the tools, what makes enabling?
  235. [18:35:50] <bewest> I assumed planning for adoption would be an important part of defining a successful outcome
  236. [18:36:16] <Hixie> if no one uses the tools, the tools sucked.
  237. [18:36:39] <Hixie> you don't write specs to induce adoption. you write specs to fit the needs, and adoption happens.
  238. [18:38:19] <bewest> sounds good
  239. [18:39:22] * tommorris (n=tommorri@81.171.224.194) has joined #microformats
  240. [18:39:36] <bewest> anyway, it sounds to me like the whatwg goal is primarily to resolve faults, with a secondary goal of adding new features as necessary, while the w3 approach is primarily to add features with a secondary goal of resolving faults
  241. [18:40:10] <Hixie> nope
  242. [18:40:18] <bewest> ah
  243. [18:40:28] <Hixie> the whatwg considers fixing problems and adding new features to be equally important
  244. [18:40:35] <Hixie> but only because it's not looked at that way
  245. [18:40:47] <Hixie> really the whatwg has just one goal: address author needs
  246. [18:41:00] <tommorris> The WhatWG have successfully managed to prevent us from ever getting rid of SGML. ;)
  247. [18:41:35] <bewest> good goal
  248. [18:41:38] <Hixie> bewest: authors need (through various levels of indirection) the specs to be more precise, and certain missing features to be added
  249. [18:41:43] <Hixie> tommorris: uh
  250. [18:41:48] <Hixie> tommorris: whatwg doesn't use sgml
  251. [18:42:02] <tommorris> By SGML, I mean HTML not XHTML
  252. [18:42:31] * bewest isn't sure HTML5 is defined using SGML
  253. [18:43:04] <tommorris> XML well-formedness should be part of the next HTML
  254. [18:43:14] <Hixie> HTML5 has nothing to do with SGML
  255. [18:43:19] <Hixie> it's its own language
  256. [18:43:25] <Hixie> and HTML5 allows you to use XML if you want
  257. [18:43:53] <Hixie> and "XML well formedness", by which i assume you mean "syntax rules", have been present in HTML for more than a decade
  258. [18:44:00] <bewest> right
  259. [18:44:05] <Hixie> HTML5 actually makes it even more precise by defining exactly what is a syntax error
  260. [18:44:10] <tommorris> No. <br> is not acceptable.
  261. [18:44:14] <tommorris> <p> without closing tags.
  262. [18:44:17] <Hixie> HTML5 allows <br/>
  263. [18:44:21] <Hixie> <p> can have closing tags
  264. [18:44:32] <tommorris> Yes, it allows it. It should *require* it
  265. [18:44:37] <Hixie> why?
  266. [18:44:46] <Hixie> it's not ambiguous, it's exactly defined when the </p> is implied
  267. [18:44:49] <tommorris> Because then all the XML tools can read it
  268. [18:45:03] <Hixie> if you want to use XML tools, just stick an HTML5 parser on the front
  269. [18:45:09] * tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.21) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  270. [18:45:12] <Hixie> HTML5 defines a parser algorithm that can output an XML tree
  271. [18:45:19] <Hixie> html5lib already implements this for python
  272. [18:45:23] <Hixie> and can be used today
  273. [18:45:32] <Hixie> you can also just use XHTML5 if you really want
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  276. [18:45:34] <Hixie> it's fully XML
  277. [18:46:09] <tommorris> It's just an pain in the arse.
  278. [18:46:13] <tommorris> s/an/a
  279. [18:46:17] <gsnedders> tommorris: with that argument I should be able to use a SGML parser for XML documents
  280. [18:46:26] <bewest> tommorris: that's the job :-)
  281. [18:46:33] <gsnedders> tommorris: I should be able to use SGML tools with XML!
  282. [18:47:59] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  283. [18:48:11] <gsnedders> tommorris: and how do you propose we should parse current HTML documents? Should UAs just stop supporting them?
  284. [18:49:53] * JMulder_ (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
  285. [18:51:59] <tommorris> gsnedders: No, just a long term goal.
  286. [18:52:14] <tommorris> The long term goal of HTML should be towards XML.
  287. [18:52:26] <bewest> the other thing that bugs me a bit is that microsoft seems a bit absent from the whatwg discussion, but a microsoft person is the co-chair for the HTML WG
  288. [18:52:37] <bewest> I've never heard of the co-chair before
  289. [18:52:55] <Hixie> you've never heard of chris wilson?
  290. [18:52:57] <gsnedders> bewest: Chris Wilson? He was until recently head of IE
  291. [18:53:00] <bewest> oh
  292. [18:53:03] <bewest> then I have
  293. [18:53:06] <bewest> and just didn't recognize it
  294. [18:53:08] <bewest> him
  295. [18:53:30] <gsnedders> (he moved down to a lower role so he could do more actual development)
  296. [18:53:43] <bewest> I guess everything's dandy then
  297. [18:54:20] <bewest> although it's hard to envision microsoft playing nicely with the other browser vendors
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  309. [19:05:55] <mfbot> [[footnotes-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=footnotes-examples&diff=0&oldid=14203 * JeremyBoggs * (+152) Weblogs -
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  316. [19:15:56] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=14204 * JazzSlider * (+229) New Examples -
  317. [19:18:07] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=14205 * JazzSlider * (+207) New Examples -
  318. [19:18:13] <mfbot> [[species]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=14206 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Introduction - '
  319. [19:19:30] <mfbot> [[rel-tag]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag&diff=0&oldid=14207 * JazzSlider * (+113) Examples in the Wild -
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  323. [19:22:52] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=14209 * Cgriego * (+31) Attending - Added myself.
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  353. [20:53:47] <mfbot> [[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=14211 * AlexBischoff * (+1044) Added "How come microformats sometimes to linger as Drafts?"
  354. [20:55:41] <bewest> hmmm
  355. [20:55:47] <bewest> I would have asked "compared to what?"
  356. [20:58:52] <KevinMarks> I was thinking about this too - should we have something like the old iETF rule of 3 independent interoperating implementations for moving from draft to spec?
  357. [20:59:38] <bewest> w3 has a similar rule don't they?
  358. [20:59:43] <bewest> they need 2 to move to CR?
  359. [20:59:52] <KevinMarks> not sure
  360. [21:00:04] <bewest> I'm not totally sure either
  361. [21:00:21] <KevinMarks> I think the IETF one was 2 interoperating implementations based on the spec (ie not counting the one it claimed to document)
  362. [21:00:57] <gsnedders> bewest: the W3C don't. some W3C WGs do, though
  363. [21:01:07] <gsnedders> the HTML WG has one for REC, IIRC
  364. [21:02:45] <gsnedders> mmm… it was taken out of the charter
  365. [21:04:04] <bewest> huh... yeah, I can't find it http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#Recs
  366. [21:05:48] <KevinMarks> IETF goes from proposed to draft with two implementations "A specification from which at least two independent and interoperable
  367. [21:05:48] <KevinMarks> implementations from different code bases have been developed, and
  368. [21:05:48] <KevinMarks> for which sufficient successful operational experience has been
  369. [21:05:48] <KevinMarks> obtained, may be elevated to the "Draft Standard" level."
  370. [21:05:51] <danja> what would be an interoperating implementation for a microformat spec?
  371. [21:06:26] <KevinMarks> we'd need to define it carefully
  372. [21:06:48] <KevinMarks> presumably more than one publisher and more than one parser
  373. [21:07:21] <bewest> depends on the use case for the format
  374. [21:07:38] <bewest> funny thing is that we often adopt new use cases
  375. [21:07:51] <KevinMarks> ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/bcp/bcp9.txt 4.1
  376. [21:08:31] <danja> so bewest, what would an interoperating implementation for say hCard look like?
  377. [21:10:39] <bewest> dunno :-)
  378. [21:10:42] <bewest> is danja danny ayers?
  379. [21:10:55] <danja> yup
  380. [21:11:14] <bewest> yeah, I don't know
  381. [21:11:15] <danja> j = john
  382. [21:11:20] <bewest> ah
  383. [21:11:24] <bewest> e = elrod
  384. [21:11:38] <danja> aha
  385. [21:11:55] <bewest> but I also moved from New Jersey to California
  386. [21:12:11] <danja> ...ok
  387. [21:12:31] <danja> not waseast then
  388. [21:13:59] <KevinMarks> for hCard, consistent transformation to vcf is the obvious test - do two tools interpret the same published data the same way?
  389. [21:14:00] <danja> the idea of using implementations for shifting from draft status sounds good
  390. [21:14:49] <danja> right
  391. [21:15:59] <danja> has there been any progress around relax ng or whatever for schemas?
  392. [21:17:06] <bewest> danja: I saw some interesting blog posts, but I think one of them was on your blog
  393. [21:17:56] <danja> heh, ok...I think that was a while ago - someone (Norm Walsh?) saying it was hard I think...
  394. [21:18:09] <bewest> I recently saw one technique using relax NG + schematron
  395. [21:18:29] <KevinMarks> hm, I'm seeing some oddness with Operator and the DST change
  396. [21:18:52] <danja> oh right, I hear schematron is mighty versatile
  397. [21:23:11] <ianloic> bewest, oh really - I should go hunt that down
  398. [21:23:44] <ianloic> bewest, I've been trying to work out what kind of schemas could be used to specify microformats
  399. [21:25:31] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-206-125-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/2007021917]")
  400. [21:27:06] * danja wonders if Hixie uses any schema languages for HTML5
  401. [21:27:46] <Hixie> the HTML5 spec itself doesn't, just like it doesn't recommend C++ vs Java for an implementation language :-)
  402. [21:28:06] <Hixie> anyone can write a schema though, and several people have
  403. [21:28:49] <danja> using what schema languages? or just ebnf or something?
  404. [21:29:18] <Hixie> relaxng, schematron, etc
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  406. [21:32:58] <danja> but won't that have to be after mapping to xml..?
  407. [21:34:01] <Hixie> you can use an html5 parser to get a DOM and then treat the DOM like an XML tree
  408. [21:34:10] <Hixie> see henri's thesis for an example of this
  409. [21:34:17] <Hixie> (he posted it to the list recently)
  410. [21:34:37] <danja> sounds interesting
  411. [21:35:06] <danja> though does seem to rely on the magic of the parser
  412. [21:35:17] <Hixie> what do you mean by "magic"?
  413. [21:36:02] <danja> the grammar, I suppose
  414. [21:39:20] <danja> if you wanted to build a validator you'd have to prove the parser correctness first
  415. [21:40:21] <danja> I guess it's the same for xml, just fewer rules
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  427. [22:24:14] <bewest> same thing for microformats btw
  428. [22:24:23] <bewest> you use xslt to move it to some other syntax
  429. [22:24:28] <bewest> such as XML or vcf or whatever
  430. [22:24:31] <bewest> then validate /that/
  431. [22:25:57] <bewest> ianloic, Hixie, danja, validating microformats using schematron + relaxng http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog/2277_Validating_microformats.item
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  434. [22:27:06] <KevinMarks> well, something ryan said a while back makes sense to me
  435. [22:27:19] <KevinMarks> defining JSON structs that microformats map to
  436. [22:27:35] <KevinMarks> and validating the transformations match
  437. [22:27:58] <bewest> yeah, perhaps
  438. [22:28:14] <bewest> I did a json mapping of hcard that I've posted around a bunch
  439. [22:28:21] <ianloic> KevinMarks, that's how my test cases for my half-assed microformats parser works: http://bzr.ianloic.com/nanoformats-trunk/nf-test-hcard.html
  440. [22:28:29] <bewest> again, that only describes the basic structure
  441. [22:28:45] <ianloic> but you need to decide on a mapping
  442. [22:28:53] <bewest> eric's technique is interesting because it uses a hybrid approach: one to describe structure, and then another for "mapping" I guess
  443. [22:30:43] <KevinMarks> as microformats are at heart about schema convergence, a JSON mapping seems like a reasonably language neutral test for parsers
  444. [22:31:31] <bewest> KevinMarks: as opposed to relaxNG?
  445. [22:31:36] <KevinMarks> some hCalendar tests would be good
  446. [22:31:38] <KevinMarks> yes
  447. [22:31:41] <bewest> hmmm
  448. [22:31:43] <bewest> why?
  449. [22:31:45] <KevinMarks> or in parallel to
  450. [22:31:48] <bewest> ah
  451. [22:31:49] <bewest> hmmm
  452. [22:31:57] <bewest> should we use two?
  453. [22:32:03] <bewest> would one of them be normative?
  454. [22:32:15] <bewest> hmmm
  455. [22:32:19] <KevinMarks> I like ian's test layout
  456. [22:33:22] <bewest> yeah, that's pretty nice
  457. [22:33:22] <KevinMarks> relaxNG is nice for peopel who are XMl-focused
  458. [22:33:23] <bewest> um
  459. [22:33:48] <bewest> I see an "expected:"
  460. [22:33:53] <bewest> is there a "got:" that I'm missing?
  461. [22:34:07] <ianloic> bear, it's green if it got what it expected
  462. [22:34:09] <bewest> ianloic: have you seen http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js ?
  463. [22:34:10] <ianloic> er
  464. [22:34:12] <ianloic> bewest,
  465. [22:34:28] <ianloic> I also haven't touched this code in 6 months, its buggy and incomplete :)
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  468. [22:35:01] <bewest> ianloic: I haven't touched hcard_structure in about a year
  469. [22:35:11] <ianloic> bewest, nice, that's cool - it doesn't seem to handle the implied stuff but it looks nice
  470. [22:35:35] <bewest> literally: http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js
  471. [22:35:37] <bewest> oops
  472. [22:35:41] <bewest> Last-Modified: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:03:02 GMT
  473. [22:35:57] <ianloic> bewest, my version of that is in here: http://bzr.ianloic.com/nanoformats-trunk/nf-formats.js, not as pretty
  474. [22:36:02] <ianloic> bewest, "about a year" :)
  475. [22:36:27] <bewest> ianloic: mkaply also has a similar version, but it mixes executable code
  476. [22:36:34] <bewest> oh yours does too
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  478. [22:36:49] <bewest> ah mine isn't a parser
  479. [22:36:52] <bewest> it's just a description
  480. [22:36:53] <ianloic> bewest, mine depends less on code than mkaply's
  481. [22:37:05] <KevinMarks> it reminds me of markp's method for specifiying the feedparser tests
  482. [22:37:30] <ianloic> bewest, and any time I hit a case where code was required I considered that either my schema language was deficient or I the format was specified poorly
  483. [22:39:12] <KevinMarks> eg feed://feedparser.org/tests/wellformed/atom/entry_content_value.xml
  484. [22:40:32] <KevinMarks> we could converge these to give a way to specify parser test cases that are valid HTML, and specify their results as JSON in the same document
  485. [22:41:07] * ianloic nods.
  486. [22:41:28] <ianloic> we could have the json in a text node
  487. [22:42:02] <KevinMarks> or in <script class="expected">
  488. [22:42:18] <KevinMarks> eg
  489. [22:42:19] <ianloic> <div class="testcase"><div class="microformat">...</div><div class="json">...</div></div> style
  490. [22:42:21] <ianloic> yeah
  491. [22:42:22] <ianloic> somethign
  492. [22:43:08] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=14212 * Tantek * (+220) sorted some attendees, made a few comments
  493. [22:46:45] <bewest> the thing that bothers me about using json as a schema language is that it hasn't been peer reviewed for that use in the same way other schema languages have
  494. [22:46:53] <bewest> I think that was ryan's issue as well
  495. [22:48:22] <bewest> so if someone were to collect a list of issues
  496. [22:48:26] <bewest> would it go something like this:
  497. [22:48:45] <bewest> 1.) should we use a schema language to test implementations of microformat parsers?
  498. [22:49:09] <bewest> 2.) should we use json as a schema language?
  499. [22:49:22] <bewest> something along those lines?
  500. [22:51:09] <ianloic> well, I think json doesn't nececarilly make a good schema language but it makes a good language for expressing the canonical form of hcard dat
  501. [22:51:10] <ianloic> a
  502. [22:51:30] <ianloic> the schema is a harder one
  503. [22:51:37] * ajturner_ is now known as ajturner
  504. [22:52:14] <ianloic> I'll come back to the hAtom entry title example and challenge you to express that accurately in a schema language that isn't turing complete :)
  505. [22:56:13] <KevinMarks> thats what I meant
  506. [22:56:22] <KevinMarks> expressing the expected results
  507. [22:56:38] <KevinMarks> not the metastructure
  508. [22:59:36] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  509. [23:00:55] <bewest> hmmm
  510. [23:01:16] <ianloic> I mean we could use xml or s-expressions but in this web2.0 world json is a handy choice
  511. [23:01:31] <bewest> so should tests using json to express results be considered normative?
  512. [23:03:56] <ianloic> for parsers? no, but if implementors start using it then we could end up with a good size test-suite pretty quickly
  513. [23:04:03] <ianloic> or perhaps it should
  514. [23:04:10] * ianloic shrugs.l
  515. [23:04:15] * tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.21) Quit ()
  516. [23:08:16] <KevinMarks> what would prevent it being normative?
  517. [23:09:25] * bewest shrugs
  518. [23:15:24] * mbradley (n=chatzill@dasasob.nokia.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  519. [23:19:06] * ianloic shrugs.
  520. [23:19:21] <ianloic> I'm not good at these policy questions
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