IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-05-14
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:24:57] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [01:16:55] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [01:18:28] <tantek>
hey dburka
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- [03:20:28] <mfbot>
[[User:BruceDailey]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:BruceDailey&diff=0&oldid=16717 * BruceDailey * (+0)
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- [07:33:45] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [08:01:51] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [08:03:21] <jibot>
ddfreyne is nothing
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- [08:18:15] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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- [09:37:48] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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- [10:19:46] <mfbot>
[[User talk:DanielBurka]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:DanielBurka * AndyMabbett * (+72) Welcome!
- [10:43:37] * ChrisHeilmann (i=bla@nat/yahoo/x-15e05dc9275d25a0) has joined #microformats
- [10:43:37] <jibot>
ChrisHeilmann is Christian Heilmann, physically located in London and at http://wait-till-i.com
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- [12:02:29] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [12:17:57] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16718 * WebOrganics * (-302) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
- [12:18:43] <mfbot>
[[User:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16719 * WebOrganics * (+0)
- [12:23:19] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16720 * WebOrganics * (+10) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
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- [12:30:12] <Dogpoundz>
your IRC link for the wiki takes you to ##microformats btw
- [12:35:11] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16721 * WebOrganics * (+246) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
- [12:36:37] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16722 * WebOrganics * (+86) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
- [12:37:43] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16723 * WebOrganics * (-7) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
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- [12:45:59] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16724 * WebOrganics * (+22) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
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- [12:50:30] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16725 * WebOrganics * (+89) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
- [12:58:11] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16726 * WebOrganics * (+291) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
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- [13:16:16] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [14:09:39] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-429a28873b766c71) has joined #microformats
- [14:09:39] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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- [14:24:31] <jibot>
ichigo is Thomas Schranz, developer of http://footag.com, journal at http://suitcase.at
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- [14:54:56] <jibot>
Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
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- [14:58:23] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [16:13:25] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=16727 * DrErnie * (+100) New Examples - twitter
- [16:15:12] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=16728 * DrErnie * (+59) New Examples - better link
- [16:15:28] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=16729 * DrErnie * (+1) New Examples - typo
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- [16:29:07] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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- [17:10:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [17:10:17] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [17:12:08] <jibot>
DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
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- [17:18:31] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16730 * JChris * (+227) question about Track Title
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- [17:27:23] <jibot>
ddfreyne is nothing
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- [17:52:26] <Dogpoundz>
quick question, whats an arbitrary URL?
- [17:52:30] <Dogpoundz>
source: rel="tag" is NOT designed for "tagging" arbitrary URLs or external content. There is demand for a general decentralized
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- [17:53:13] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [17:54:05] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [18:01:54] <mfbot>
[[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=16731 * Rvanderblom * (+283)
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- [18:11:30] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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- [18:23:24] <tantek>
hey mkaply!
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- [18:26:37] <Dogpoundz>
?def cascadingstylez is James Jeffery and will have his Website running shortly
- [18:26:37] <jibot>
cascadingstylez is James Jeffery and will have his Website running shortly
- [18:26:38] <Dogpoundz>
shit
- [18:26:39] <Dogpoundz>
lol
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- [18:30:02] <tantek>
in the latest Operator 0.7, in the preferences if you set "Display style" to "Microformats" then the hCard (or contacts) popup on the toolbar is missing the "Export All" menu item.
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- [18:30:26] <tantek>
"Export All" only shows up if you have "Display style" set to "Actions"
- [18:30:28] <tantek>
that seems like an omission
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- [18:34:13] <tantek>
any chance 0.7.1 could include the Export All menu item in all menu modes? (for contacts, events)
- [18:34:55] <Dogpoundz>
tantek, you the same guy that is mentioned in HTML Mastery?
- [18:36:50] <Dogpoundz>
",with reference to "hCard Parsing" by Tantek Celik"
- [18:40:31] <tantek>
I am the primary author of http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing yes.
- [18:40:40] <tantek>
what is "HTML Mastery"? URL?
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- [18:53:31] <Dogpoundz>
sorry tantek, was getting food. Its a book on HTML Semantics and Standards
- [18:54:01] <tantek>
oh cool, would you say it's a good book on POSH http://microformats.org/wiki/posh ?
- [18:54:16] <Dogpoundz>
lists all the microformats in chapter 5, thats what got me onto the subject, i ended up a microformats.org then idled here.
- [18:54:40] <Dogpoundz>
yes tan, its definatly POSH :P
- [18:55:09] <tantek>
excellent - could you add it to http://microformats.org/wiki/posh#POSH_Books ?
- [18:55:22] <Dogpoundz>
yep will do :)
- [18:55:24] <tantek>
Thanks!
- [18:55:39] <Dogpoundz>
are you the co author of the microformats book?
- [18:56:25] <Dogpoundz>
we have copies in Waterstones in Birmingham, UK. Gotta say it looks promising, gonna purchase on payday.
- [19:01:03] <mkaply>
tantek: I'm working on that.
- [19:01:12] <mkaply>
tantek: I thought the UI looked kind of strange. But I was wrong.
- [19:01:23] <mkaply>
tantek: FYI I got my shirt. Thanks
- [19:01:40] <tantek>
mkaply, great! thanks again for all the goodness that is Operator.
- [19:01:56] <tantek>
Dogpoundz, no I'm not a co-author on the microformats book.
- [19:02:08] <tantek>
John Allsopp did a wonderful job.
- [19:02:44] <Dogpoundz>
i had a quick flick through it, i thought about running off with it, then i thought nah, support the guys that put the hard work in :P
- [19:02:51] <Dogpoundz>
jking btw, lol.
- [19:07:18] <mfbot>
[[posh]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh&diff=0&oldid=16732 * JJ * (+276) POSH Books -
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- [19:15:48] <jibot>
bear is located near Philadelphia, PA and the build/release grunt for OSAF and an apprentice python hacker
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- [19:21:14] <mfbot>
[[presentational-html]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentational-html&diff=0&oldid=16733 * MikeMontgomery * (+1)
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- [19:22:04] <JJ07>
?def JJ07 is James Jeffery and lives in Birmingham[UK]!
- [19:22:05] <jibot>
JJ07 is James Jeffery and lives in Birmingham[UK]!
- [19:23:40] <ddfreyne>
big, center, small, i, s, strike, tt, u… are those all considered presentation html?
- [19:24:27] <JJ07>
yes.
- [19:25:08] <ddfreyne>
what about blockquote, when used for indenting text?
- [19:25:14] <tantek_>
yes
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- [19:25:45] <ddfreyne>
and p for separating text, and strong for making text bold, and h1/h2/h3/h4/... for making text bigger, and em for making text italic?
- [19:25:45] <JJ07>
dont use blockquote to indent text.
- [19:25:54] <ddfreyne>
JJ07: well, yes, of course.
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- [19:27:29] <JJ07>
hr, pre, sup, sub, i, b, strike, s, u, tt, big, small are all the most common presentational elements.
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- [19:29:03] <ddfreyne>
basefont?
- [19:29:14] <ddfreyne>
not directly visible, but has a presentation impact
- [19:29:41] <mfbot>
[[presentational-html]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentational-html&diff=0&oldid=16734 * DenisDefreyne * (+91) adding some more presentational elements
- [19:32:02] <JJ07>
<p> and <h*> are block-level elements, so if you use them to make text bigger, or add spaces it dont make them presentational elements, it would be classed as an element missused
- [19:32:28] <ddfreyne>
same for <table> though
- [19:32:42] <JJ07>
table is also block-level as is blockquote
- [19:34:14] <JJ07>
BaseFont is a head element also.
- [19:36:11] <wzajac>
dd and dt too when used improperly with dialogs to make indents on dd
- [19:37:08] <JJ07>
DD is block-level. But it still shouldn't be classed as presentational if its being missused.
- [19:37:12] <mfbot>
[[semantic-xhtml]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semantic-xhtml&diff=0&oldid=16735 * DenisDefreyne * (+31) Adding a few more. Also added dl (not sure why it was missing).
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- [19:37:53] <JJ07>
tan, i will take it to the channel :P
- [19:37:54] <ddfreyne>
JJ07: <table> shouldn't be classed as presentational either then… any use of <table> for layout is abuse…
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- [19:38:11] <JJ07>
tables for tabular data is not abuse
- [19:38:13] <wzajac>
well, blockquote also shouldn't be classed as presentational, it's because of browser default styling
- [19:38:23] <ddfreyne>
tables *for layout*
- [19:38:30] <JJ07>
block-quote is block-level
- [19:38:52] <JJ07>
tables is for tabular data, its block-level, if its being missused its still block-level just being missused
- [19:39:55] <ddfreyne>
I'm not sure what your point is about block-level elements
- [19:39:57] <bewest>
there's a difference between presentational authoring techniques (which misuse elements) and presentational elements
- [19:40:22] <bewest>
you can have non-presentational elements used in a presentational authoring technique
- [19:40:26] <ddfreyne>
both <table> and <blockquote> are not presentational, but people abuse them because of their default appearance in browsers
- [19:40:41] <JJ07>
W3C outline what the elements are, you cannot change what W3C outline. If they are abused it does not change what they are :)
- [19:41:07] <bewest>
although it might change what they become
- [19:41:19] <ddfreyne>
exactly… <table> and <blockquote> aren't presentational because they're being abused
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- [19:41:39] <ddfreyne>
eh, that didn't sound correct
- [19:41:43] <wzajac>
ddfreyne: you can also put <hr /> to semantic elements, because people use it for acccessibility reasons. is it abuse?
- [19:41:52] <JJ07>
dd: table and blockquote are block-level and not presentational and nobody will ever change that
- [19:41:56] <tantek>
bewest, both presentational authoring techniques (which misuse elements) and presentational elements can be characterized as "presentational HTML"
- [19:42:03] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16736 * WebOrganics * (+41) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
- [19:42:36] <bewest>
sure
- [19:42:39] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16737 * WebOrganics * (-1) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
- [19:42:45] <JJ07>
tantek, is it ok to take part in contributions?
- [19:42:51] <JJ07>
on the wiki
- [19:43:03] <bewest>
yes
- [19:43:03] <JJ07>
i'd like to be involved if at all possible.
- [19:43:04] <ddfreyne>
tantek: hm, wouldn't it then make more sense to divide the list of presentational elements into "pure" presentational elements (b, i, …) and "abused" presentational elements (table, blockquote, …)?
- [19:43:17] <bewest>
JJ07: the wiki is open to everyone, although there are some conventions...
- [19:43:19] <tantek>
hi JJ07, yes absolutely! Start with reading http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play
- [19:43:33] <tantek>
ddfreyne - excellent suggestion
- [19:43:40] <JJ07>
thanks tantek
- [19:44:09] <JJ07>
whats the wiki link to the edit your making ddfreyne? id like to take a quick look.
- [19:44:15] <tantek>
and I encourage you to add an entry for yourself on the to-do page http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do
- [19:44:31] <tantek>
that lists the things you want to do or work on
- [19:44:38] <ddfreyne>
JJ07: working on http://microformats.org/wiki/presentational-html now
- [19:45:00] <JJ07>
tantek, ill take a look around the wiki and see what i can help out with
- [19:46:02] <JJ07>
dd: i see what you mean about having pure presentational and abused pres..
- [19:47:20] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16738 * WebOrganics * (+11) playlist-track -
- [19:47:45] <JJ07>
personally though (this is only personal) id have Block-Level, Inline, Phrase Elements, Presentational Elements, Head Elements, Document Elements. In the correct order obviously.
- [19:48:07] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16739 * WebOrganics * (+0) playlist-track -
- [19:48:33] <csarven>
should rel=tag's be part of entry-content ?
- [19:49:09] <JJ07>
csarven! Its dogpoundz from efnet :)
- [19:49:38] <mfbot>
[[presentational-html]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentational-html&diff=0&oldid=16740 * DenisDefreyne * (+385) Splitting elements section into "Pure" and "Abused"
- [19:49:46] <ddfreyne>
JJ07: ↑ take a look at that
- [19:50:17] <ddfreyne>
I put <hr> in abused, but I'm not entirely sure it belongs there
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- [19:51:23] <wzajac>
I would put <hr> in pure presentational… It's horizontal line, though
- [19:51:24] <ddfreyne>
Heh, <hr> seems to be a presentational element that is sometimes abused as a semantic element instead
- [19:51:35] <ddfreyne>
yeah…
- [19:51:35] <wzajac>
Exactly.
- [19:52:46] <csarven>
HR is not necessarily a presentational element. one can use it to logically seperate sections
- [19:52:46] <JJ07>
right im out. bbl
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- [19:53:12] <ddfreyne>
csarven: HTML4 spec says "a horizontal line"
- [19:53:39] <JJ07>
presentational elements are usuallay elements that change the way content looks.
- [19:54:03] <ddfreyne>
so… <h2>Header</h2><hr><p>I want a line under my level-2 header!</p> ← that's just a line, not a separator
- [19:54:03] <JJ07>
id say HR was presentational
- [19:54:44] <mfbot>
[[presentational-html]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentational-html&diff=0&oldid=16741 * DenisDefreyne * (+0) hr is presentational, the HTML4 specs say so.
- [19:55:02] <JJ07>
they do indeed.
- [19:55:48] <ddfreyne>
I'm not sure why <br> is not always a presentational element…
- [19:56:16] <ddfreyne>
I'm having a hard time thinking of an example in which <br> is used in a mostly non-presentational way
- [19:58:25] <wzajac>
Forcing a line break: the BR element
- [19:58:35] <wzajac>
Same situation as with <hr>
- [19:58:40] <wzajac>
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#h-9.3.2.1
- [19:58:41] <bewest>
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#edef-BR
- [19:58:49] <wzajac>
:)
- [19:59:00] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16742 * WebOrganics * (+1423) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
- [19:59:41] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16743 * WebOrganics * (+1)
- [20:00:28] <ddfreyne>
I'd say <br> is pretty much always presentational
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- [20:04:57] <wzajac>
agreed
- [20:11:04] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16744 * WebOrganics * (-39) attributes -
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16745 * WebOrganics * (+0)
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16746 * WebOrganics * (+89)
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16747 * WebOrganics * (+1)
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16748 * WebOrganics * (+0)
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16749 * WebOrganics * (+0)
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- [20:27:21] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16750 * WebOrganics * (-1)
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[[course-catalog-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=course-catalog-examples&diff=0&oldid=16751 * ScottWilson * (+70) XCRI - eXchanging Course-Related Information -
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16752 * WebOrganics * (+138) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16753 * WebOrganics * (+184) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16757 * WebOrganics * (-27) hCollection 0.0.4 -
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16759 * WebOrganics * (-2)
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- [21:40:31] <jibot>
KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs
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thinking about doing a speed geeking
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- [22:05:35] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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- [22:20:46] <tantek>
<br> is nearly always *purely* presentational. The few exceptions where I've seen it used in arguably semantic ways are things like poetry and lyrics, where a "line" of a song is an actual semantic distinction, and not just a presentation
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- [22:45:28] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [23:19:17] * TristanD (n=tristan@AVelizy-151-1-78-211.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit ()
- [23:20:55] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@207.47.11.9.static.nextweb.net) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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- [23:31:01] * kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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- [23:31:40] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [23:32:39] * kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com) Quit (Client Quit)
- [23:33:10] * kwijibo (n=keith@87.113.74.56.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:38:24] * logankoester (n=Logan@c-24-34-214-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [23:41:44] * aenalytic (n=aenalyti@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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- [23:53:46] <mfbot>
[[xmdp]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp&diff=0&oldid=16760 * Tantek * (+19) add xmdp profile
- [23:54:06] * kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com) has joined #microformats
- [23:54:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [23:54:06] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [23:54:09] * leahculver (n=leahculv@netblock-68-183-25-15.dslextreme.com) Quit ()
- [23:57:31] * bear is now known as bear_afk
These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on
chat.freenode.net
using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.
See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.