IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-07-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:02:12] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-6-138-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ()
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  20. [03:28:27] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  21. [03:53:10] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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  23. [04:17:50] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  31. [05:16:27] <Slash19> is anyone awake?
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  36. [05:52:31] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  37. [06:01:13] * bergie (n=bergie@ws-k-1.suunto.fi) has joined #microformats
  38. [06:01:13] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  42. [06:39:33] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  43. [06:54:00] * bengee (n=bengee@ip40.18.1411K-CUD12K-04.ish.de) has joined #microformats
  44. [06:54:00] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  45. [06:57:19] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) has joined #microformats
  46. [06:57:19] <jibot> miyagawa is Tatsuhiko Miyagawa, the author of Plagger <http://plagger.org> and works on Vox <http://www.vox.com> in Six Apart.
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  50. [07:37:12] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-fr&diff=0&oldid=18142 * ZciAjf * (-12019)
  51. [07:47:18] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-fr&diff=0&oldid=18143 * Tantek * (+12019) Reverted edit of ZciAjf, changed back to last version by ChristopheDucamp
  52. [07:48:34] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:ZciAjf" with an expiry time of infinite: vandalism
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  54. [07:58:53] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  55. [07:58:53] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  57. [08:16:37] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) has joined #microformats
  58. [08:16:37] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  59. [08:17:44] * Charl (n=charlvn@c1-228-9.wblv.isadsl.co.za) has joined #microformats
  60. [08:17:44] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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  64. [09:04:41] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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  69. [09:23:14] <mfbot> [[User talk:V-I-P]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:V-I-P * AndyMabbett * (+72) Welcome!
  70. [09:23:55] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  71. [09:23:55] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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  76. [10:11:39] <Dorward> I know there is some software which makes use of the profile attribute to get information about how to use microformats in a given page, but its name escapes me at the moment. Can anyone remind me what I'm thinking of? thanks.
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  81. [10:39:28] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=18144 * Beat-boxing * (+197) Browsing -
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  97. [13:09:37] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  98. [13:09:37] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  102. [13:48:45] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  115. [15:06:15] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  116. [15:34:48] <mfbot> [[semacode-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/semacode-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1094)
  117. [15:35:39] <mfbot> [[Template:branding-see-also-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:branding-see-also-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+139)
  118. [15:35:55] <mfbot> [[Template:branding-see-also-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:branding-see-also-fr&diff=0&oldid=18145 * ChristopheDucamp * (+16)
  119. [15:37:26] <mfbot> [[semacode-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semacode-fr&diff=0&oldid=18146 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) Historique -
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  122. [15:47:16] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  123. [15:47:27] <mfbot> [[buttons-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons-fr&diff=0&oldid=18147 * ChristopheDucamp * (+40)
  124. [15:49:43] <mfbot> [[buttons-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons-fr&diff=0&oldid=18148 * ChristopheDucamp * (+7144) revert vandalism
  125. [15:51:04] <mfbot> [[buttons-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons-fr&diff=0&oldid=18149 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2)
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  127. [16:00:34] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-d474f6765d6fb0f9) has joined #microformats
  128. [16:00:34] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  129. [16:03:46] * sreynen (n=sreynen@205.169.187.2) has joined #microformats
  130. [16:03:46] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  131. [16:03:46] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  132. [16:04:06] <mfbot> [[icons-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=icons-fr&diff=0&oldid=18150 * ChristopheDucamp * (+315) Général -
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  135. [16:30:26] <sreynen> hey tantek, best of luck with your new adventures. i'm sure everyone else knew this days ago, but i just read your blog.
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  141. [16:40:31] <mfbot> [[icons-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=icons-fr&diff=0&oldid=18151 * ChristopheDucamp * (+994)
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  145. [16:47:57] <mfbot> [[semacode]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semacode&diff=0&oldid=18152 * AndyMabbett * (+68) Background - Data Matrix
  146. [16:48:13] <mfbot> [[semacode]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semacode&diff=0&oldid=18153 * AndyMabbett * (-2) []
  147. [16:50:09] <mfbot> [[icons-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=icons-fr&diff=0&oldid=18154 * ChristopheDucamp * (+604)
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  149. [17:03:35] * nslater (n=nslater@tortoise.bytesexual.org) has joined #microformats
  150. [17:04:13] <nslater> Why are dates marked up as abbr elements with the W3CDTF as the full title of the abbreviation?
  151. [17:06:04] <tantek> nslater, it's actually ISO8601
  152. [17:06:41] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-76223b42949e0b48) has joined #microformats
  153. [17:06:42] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  154. [17:06:52] <tantek> in short, to provide a universally language/culture independent readable form of the datetime
  155. [17:06:53] <nslater> Hey tantek, I just came here after reading your latest entry. The abbr in the last paragraph really surprised me. If I was viewing your page in a screen reader it would read out the machine date - which is bad accessibility IMHO.
  156. [17:07:26] <tantek> actually it depends on which screen reader and with which settings, it's a little more complicated than that
  157. [17:07:27] <nslater> tantek, I understand the goal, but could it not be put into another attribute which would not hurt accessibility?
  158. [17:07:50] <tantek> nslater, alternatives are being explored
  159. [17:08:00] <tantek> properly researched with results
  160. [17:08:46] <nslater> Hmm, perhaps a span or something? Yeah, okay - like I said, just threw me off a little. Just one more question, how come the abbr element was chosen in the first place?
  161. [17:08:56] <tantek> and actually, there is still an open question as to the overall *accessibility*, given that ISODates are more internationally readable understandable than English (or any other particular language)
  162. [17:09:23] <nslater> tantek, readable maybe - but pronouncable, no.
  163. [17:09:33] <tantek> the ISODate, is actually *more* accessible in a cultural/language neutral perspective
  164. [17:09:54] <tantek> more people have a chance of understanding numbers than words of a specific language
  165. [17:09:56] <nslater> tantek, yes I agree with you on that. I am thinking about audio representation via assistive devices.
  166. [17:10:10] <tantek> and i am thinking pure numbers in terms of accessibilty
  167. [17:10:22] <tantek> which is really what the aim of overall accessibility should be should it not?
  168. [17:10:36] <tantek> being accessible to the most number of people, regardless of culture, language, medium?
  169. [17:10:39] <nslater> Can you clarify that point? You lost me a little...
  170. [17:11:15] <tantek> the more people that can understand/read the information the better, that's the underlying aim of accessibility
  171. [17:11:30] <tantek> so far, this is the best solution we have to date
  172. [17:12:09] <nslater> The date on your blog would be spoken to a visualy impaired user as "lunch two thousand and seven dash zero seven dash zero five tee twelve colon zero zero dash zero seven hundred at South Park, on the lawn"
  173. [17:12:10] <tantek> there are some theoretical proposals which *some* folks hypothesize *may* be better, but until those hypotheses are tested and demonstrated, we use the best we have
  174. [17:12:15] <tantek> per scientific method
  175. [17:12:31] <tantek> nslater, the problem is "would be"
  176. [17:12:53] <tantek> until you use a specific screen reader, with specific settings, and record the MP3, and document that, the statement is not actionable.
  177. [17:13:18] <nslater> Okay, touche. But I asked why abbr was chosen in the first place in place of another element like span?
  178. [17:13:44] <tantek> abbr was chosen because semantically the ISODate is a precise expansion of the prose approximation of the date time
  179. [17:13:58] <tantek> it is the most POSH way to represent a precise datetime
  180. [17:14:52] <nslater> Hmm, okay - that kind of makes sense. Though there is still a nagging voice saying it's the other way round.
  181. [17:15:23] <tantek> it's not, because the expansion always provides MORE information, as it does here
  182. [17:15:26] <tantek> e.g. timezone
  183. [17:15:29] <nslater> The we was built for humans afterall, not machines. The ISO date is not as human friendly as the english version.
  184. [17:15:31] <trovster> nslater: Check out this -> http://tantek.com/log/2005/01.html
  185. [17:15:38] <tantek> not true actually
  186. [17:15:45] <nslater> It is, RDF is for machines.
  187. [17:15:50] <tantek> nslater, the ISO date is MORE human friendly to MORE humans, than the english version
  188. [17:15:59] <tantek> this is according to internationalization experts
  189. [17:16:02] <nslater> tantek, touche.
  190. [17:16:11] <tantek> not touche, just a simple fact per study
  191. [17:16:38] <nslater> No sorry, I think you misunderstand. I was using the French word for "touch".
  192. [17:16:56] <nslater> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch%C3%A9
  193. [17:16:59] <tantek> nslater, here is my original derivation of the technique from principles: http://tantek.com/log/2005/01.html#d26t0100
  194. [17:17:49] <trovster> nslater: How does "tantek, touch" make any sense ;)
  195. [17:18:42] <nslater> trovster, "tantek," is used so his IRC software highlights his name. The "touche" part indicates that he has a valid point and I don't - it's a polite way of admiting you're wrong. See the wikipedia article.
  196. [17:19:21] <trovster> Yes, I know what touch� means, and so does tantek from his reply.
  197. [17:19:25] <nslater> tantek, anyway - thanks for engaging me in discussion, I have been wanting to talk to some about this for a while.
  198. [17:19:33] <tantek> nslater, and finally, providing the more POSH markup of the date in a precise form with a recognizable pattern of abbr with a particular class name provides the opportunity for the screen readers to be *more* accessible with date-times than they've ever been before.
  199. [17:19:47] <nslater> trovster, aha - it's you from #css. Anyway - how does it NOT make sense?
  200. [17:19:55] <tantek> since the user could configure their screen reader to pronounce/read out the date time in their own language, or numerical order etc.
  201. [17:20:22] <nslater> tantek, yes - but that is by the by as it is a hypothetical benifit right now.
  202. [17:20:23] <tantek> rather than just "tomorrow noon" which only makes sense to the fraction of the world that understands English
  203. [17:20:26] <mfbot> [[spread-microformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=spread-microformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=18155 * ChristopheDucamp * (+558)
  204. [17:20:50] <tantek> nslater, as was HTML to begin with, before there were HTML screen readers
  205. [17:20:52] <trovster> http://www.google.com/search?q=microformats+abbr+datetime && http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern-issues discuss a lot of the "issues" that are being brought up with datetime pattern, which tantek is discsussing with you
  206. [17:21:15] <nslater> trovster, thank you.
  207. [17:21:18] <tantek> and people might have insisted that the angle brackets and attributes in HTML made HTML inaccessible to Text-only screen readers
  208. [17:21:46] <nslater> tantek, hmm - not sure of the validity of that argument.
  209. [17:21:48] <tantek> we would never have HTML enhanced screen readers if people didn't first adopt HTML
  210. [17:22:05] <nslater> tantek, HTML came before screen readers so that's a bogus argument.
  211. [17:22:10] <tantek> there are *many* analogies between the origin and use of microformats to the origin and use of HTML
  212. [17:22:27] <tantek> nslater, not true, there were text-only screen readers when HTML was invented
  213. [17:22:40] <tantek> HTML documents were thus *less* accessible at the time than plain text documents
  214. [17:23:02] <tantek> but HTML enabled the *potential* for more accessibility
  215. [17:23:03] <nslater> My point is, it is a Bad Thing to break the web, while hoping that things might change later to unbreak what you broke.
  216. [17:23:08] <tantek> potential which has since been realized
  217. [17:23:17] <tantek> the same will happen with microformats
  218. [17:23:32] <tantek> and any technology that takes off to the hundreds of millions of instances point
  219. [17:23:53] <tantek> and nslater, as I explained above it is *not* breaking the web, it's actually *improving* the web, for more people
  220. [17:23:58] <tantek> even *today*
  221. [17:24:21] <tantek> so the abbr pattern provides worldwide benefits *today*, while *also* enabling *more* accessibility potential
  222. [17:24:49] <nslater> Has anyone heard what it sounds like in a screen reader yet?
  223. [17:28:26] <nslater> I'll admit that I have no idea how this would sound to a visually impared user - but I guess someone might have tried it out to check?
  224. [17:28:36] <taaz> the datetime-design-pattern wiki page is murky on this. says use abbr then immediatly following that says its not accessable markup and standards folks recommend s span method.
  225. [17:29:16] <taaz> what's a markup author supposed to make of that?
  226. [17:30:04] <trovster> 'The accessibility task force (http://www.webstandards.org/2007/04/27/haccessibility/) from webstandards.org recommends:' <span> but that's not in the spec of the microformat
  227. [17:30:48] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-86d43e2f7c62c229) Quit ("Fades out again…")
  228. [17:33:13] <nslater> Interesting...
  229. [17:33:16] <trovster> taaz: The "official" specification still states the use of the abbr-design-pattern, so that is what parsers have been built to use, and which you should use to markup your code
  230. [17:34:04] <taaz> that's a rather bogus arguement since you guys are just making up the specs as you feel like it
  231. [17:34:11] <nslater> Or the spec sould change to match the recomendations of the accessibility task force, either way.
  232. [17:34:51] <trovster> "as you feel like it" -- nah all of this has been heavily researched (not by me, I've not done any).
  233. [17:35:01] <trovster> nslater: It COULD, sure.
  234. [17:35:15] <nslater> Which brings me back the question, "what does it actually sounds like?"
  235. [17:35:19] <trovster> There is a lengthy process to introduce a microformat
  236. [17:35:29] <trovster> nslater: It says on the WIKI, in the links I've given you.
  237. [17:35:45] <nslater> trovster, formats change over time though, that's natural.
  238. [17:35:49] <trovster> Yes.
  239. [17:35:50] <nslater> Okay... I will look at that now.
  240. [17:35:50] <trovster> Sure.
  241. [17:35:54] <trovster> not arguing that..
  242. [17:36:34] <trovster> i'm saying what is currently in practice has been heavily researched, documented for the reasons chosen. All of which can be found on the WIKI
  243. [17:36:40] <nslater> Aha, so it's not a hypothetical as tantek put it.
  244. [17:37:21] <trovster> Where did tantek say anything was hypothetical? Regarding screenreaders.. and accessibility?
  245. [17:37:45] <nslater> "until you use a specific screen reader, with specific settings, and record the MP3, and document that, the statement is not actionable."
  246. [17:37:55] <nslater> ... he said that right at the begining.
  247. [17:37:55] * daggi (n=chrisada@82-45-160-216.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit ()
  248. [17:39:02] <nslater> Given that it's been documented to be inaccessible could the spec not be revised to use a span instead? You loose some semantic meaning, as tantek rightly stated, but gain real world advantages hear and now.
  249. [17:39:13] <nslater> s/hear/here/
  250. [17:39:34] <trovster> Dude, seriously, all of this has been extremely well documented, argued, discussed on the WIKI/mailing-list. It's nothing new.
  251. [17:39:46] <trovster> no point hammering out the same ideas over and over again.
  252. [17:40:01] <nslater> That's not an argument - it's hand waiving. Do you have a URI for why my proposal was rejected?
  253. [17:40:49] <trovster> http://tantek.com/log/2005/01.html#d26t0100 && http://www.google.com/search?q=microformats+abbr+datetime && http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern-issues
  254. [17:40:58] <trovster> "your proposal"
  255. [17:41:00] * trovster headslams
  256. [17:41:38] <nslater> trovster, yes - my proposal. You stated that my proposal has already been mentioned, so with the lack of a specific authors name it makes sense to refere to it as mine as I was the first one to mention it in this discussion.
  257. [17:43:32] <nslater> trovster, non of those links provide me with a reason for rejecting the accessibility issues.
  258. [17:44:25] <taaz> fwiw, i just use span and title. the wiki states no reason not to do so and the accessability people say that's the way to go. if there are very good reasons to break accessability, update the spec page and list them. authors are not going to research the mailing list archives for this info
  259. [17:44:41] <nslater> taaz, good point.
  260. [17:45:13] <nslater> This argument is a good rebuttal of the "screen readers should use this valuable opportunity" argument: http://www.webstandards.org/2007/04/27/haccessibility/#comment-57766
  261. [17:47:13] <nslater> In fact it goes against the very core tenates of the Microformats movement, namely to bring tangible benifits to HTML, here and now.
  262. [17:47:15] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
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  264. [17:47:31] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs
  265. [17:54:22] * tantek catches up
  266. [17:54:30] <tantek> nslater in particualr, *your* statement was theoretical, that's my point
  267. [17:54:40] * briansuda (n=c2909651@nicola.textdrive.com) has joined #microformats
  268. [17:54:40] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  269. [17:54:40] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  270. [17:54:55] <nslater> Okay, sure. But the general point isn't.
  271. [17:55:01] <tantek> taaz, thanks for pointing that out about datetime-design-pattern, I'll go fix that. such inactionable statements are not helpful.
  272. [17:55:23] <nslater> Anyway, I don't understand why you can't trade some semantic goodness for real world accessibillity.
  273. [17:55:35] <tantek> nslater, there are numerous problems with the above, hold on
  274. [17:55:41] <nslater> Sure.
  275. [17:57:11] <tantek> there are *numerous* problems, from a scientific standpoint etc. with the so-called "accessibility task force" article that seriously undercut it's credibility and any recommendations contained therein.
  276. [17:57:28] <nslater> Such as?
  277. [17:57:36] <tantek> such as making *untested* recommendations
  278. [17:57:40] <tantek> very bad science
  279. [17:58:01] <tantek> i haven't had time to fully pick apart the article point by point, but i will likely have to because of the amount of FUD that it is causing
  280. [17:58:01] <nslater> Hmm, but the actual report of how it *sounds* is correct is it not?
  281. [17:58:33] <tantek> rather, fortunately at least some of the authors of that article are constructively engaged with the microformats community in properly researching alternatives and documenting results. James Craig for example.
  282. [17:59:03] <nslater> Are the reports of how it sounds are false?
  283. [18:00:21] <nslater> If the reports are correct then I don't see that there is much of a counter argument saying that the format *is* accessible.
  284. [18:00:23] <tantek> taaz, are you still here? the assertion "as you feel like it" in reference to specs is quite false and borderline trolling. there are microformats *principles* and *process* that are followed, and the reasoning of semantic HTML. if you want to be constructive, please make specific scientific criticisms rather than sweeping generalizations which tend to be false.
  285. [18:01:35] <tantek> nslater, the specs SHOULD NOT change to match the theoretical recomendations of the accessibility task force or any other theoretical recommendations, that's bad science as well.
  286. [18:01:57] <nslater> tantek, that's not what I asked.
  287. [18:02:38] <nslater> I asked if to know if there is a counter argument stating that the method *is* accessible.
  288. [18:03:42] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=18156 * Tantek * (+135) needs cleanup
  289. [18:05:20] <tantek> nslater, see above, the problem is one of scope of accessibility.
  290. [18:05:42] <nslater> Looking now...
  291. [18:06:00] <tantek> you might say that folks looking *only* at screen reader accessibility (as opposed to worldwide accessibility of *all* people) are looking at the problem with "blinders" on (no pun intended)
  292. [18:06:32] <tantek> nslater, you stated: "Given that it's been documented to be inaccessible" - that's actually not true, per the points made above.
  293. [18:07:10] <nslater> Hmm, I would say that given the reported result in screen readers that IS documented inaccessibility.
  294. [18:07:18] <V-I-P> i signed up at the wiki and registered my nick here in irc, how come the channel bot does not introduce me when I enter the channel ?
  295. [18:07:24] <tantek> nslater, you also stated: "could the spec not be revised to use a span instead?" - and again, it is bad science to jump from a known to a theoretical without testing the theoretical. So no, the spec MUST NOT be revised as such, nor should you nor anyone else wanting to be methodical about this even suggest it.
  296. [18:08:06] <tantek> V-I-P, that's a good question :) because jibot uses it's own dictionary. jibot is a cross-channel bot, not just for microformats.
  297. [18:08:10] <nslater> tantek, you're loosing me with your argument there. It is KNOWN to be inaccessible to a segment of users - that's not theoretical.
  298. [18:08:31] <tantek> V-I-P I don't see you on http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people
  299. [18:09:09] <tantek> nslater, actually no, *a* specific usage was determine to be inaccessible with *a* tool using *a* setting.
  300. [18:09:33] <tantek> nslater, you have to be more precise
  301. [18:09:35] <tantek> such generalizations are part of the problem with the arguments put forth to date
  302. [18:09:48] <nslater> tantek, but THAT is a method of documentation.
  303. [18:09:48] <tantek> what *IS* theoretical is the workability/accessibility of any alternative
  304. [18:09:53] <nslater> Are you calling for MORE examples?
  305. [18:10:15] <tantek> nslater, no it is not documentation. unsubstantiated generalization are simply bad science.
  306. [18:10:39] <nslater> tantek, that is NOT generalization. It is a FACT that for some people this sounds like gibberish.
  307. [18:10:41] <tantek> jumping to a theoretical untested alternative doesn't make any sense. because it may turn out to have the very same problems when tested.
  308. [18:10:56] <tantek> nslater, the problem is your word "this"
  309. [18:11:01] <tantek> in that sentence
  310. [18:11:21] <nslater> Very funny.
  311. [18:11:24] <tantek> just because *an* example sounds like gibberish doesn't mean that *all* examples sound like gibberish
  312. [18:11:31] <V-I-P> tantek: I�m here http://microformats.org/wiki/User:V-I-P
  313. [18:11:35] <nslater> I never said that!
  314. [18:11:49] <nslater> All I said is that for SOME people the result of this method is gibberish.
  315. [18:11:51] <tantek> that is the implication and reasoning used by your statements and others in this thread
  316. [18:11:58] <tantek> right you just did it
  317. [18:12:07] <tantek> you went from *an* example to *this method*
  318. [18:12:11] <tantek> that is a generalization
  319. [18:12:15] <nslater> No it's not.
  320. [18:12:41] <nslater> The method we are discussing causes problems for some users, that is a fact not a generalisation.
  321. [18:12:55] <tantek> as long there are *other* examples *possible* with a method, then yes, concluding from *one* example is a generalization.
  322. [18:13:01] <tantek> that's elementary reasoning/logic
  323. [18:13:33] <tantek> nslater, no the method doesn't cause problems, a *specific use* of the method causes problems with *some screen* readers with *a particular setting*
  324. [18:13:52] <tantek> if you remove those *-* clauses, then you are overgeneralizing.
  325. [18:13:55] <nslater> In my book, that says that there is a problem.#
  326. [18:14:20] <nslater> So your saying that because this doesn't effect the majority of users it's not a big deal?
  327. [18:14:24] <tantek> there is definitely something worthy of more study and improvement yest
  328. [18:14:47] <tantek> but it is wrong to conclude that the entire method is flawed just due to a few examples
  329. [18:14:57] <tantek> that's like saying all people are bad because of a few bad examples.
  330. [18:15:08] <nslater> That's completely bogus.
  331. [18:15:13] <tantek> i'm saying your and others' reasoning is not being scientific
  332. [18:15:23] <tantek> and thus in some ways is hurting more than helping
  333. [18:15:39] <nslater> I reject that completely. That's like defening Flash splash pages because not ALL users find them to be inaccessible.
  334. [18:15:50] <nslater> s/defening/defending/
  335. [18:16:00] <tantek> your point about "all users" is a strawman
  336. [18:16:23] <tantek> we're talking about different uses of the method, not different users
  337. [18:16:29] <tantek> reread the *-* phrases above
  338. [18:16:33] <tantek> *specific use*
  339. [18:16:39] <tantek> *some screen readers*
  340. [18:16:43] <tantek> *particular setting*
  341. [18:16:52] <tantek> no mention of users
  342. [18:16:56] <nslater> tantek, all those things can be clased as the user not use.
  343. [18:17:36] <nslater> Are you saying the user is at fault for using microformats wrongly?
  344. [18:24:14] <tantek> nslater, no i'm saying that making generalizations from a few specific examples is unscientific, flawed reasoning, and thus taking action as a result is poor methodology.
  345. [18:25:23] <tantek> at any rate, I believe sufficient points have been made above to your general concerns. I'll be following up in detail on the wiki, updating the pages mentioned, and adding your questions to the FAQ accordingly.
  346. [18:26:53] <tantek> your questions have been very reasonable, and for the most part followed a good Socratic method of exploration, which is always helpful in making progress.
  347. [18:27:53] <tantek> for now I have to go to another appointment. I'll be back later.
  348. [18:27:54] <tantek> thanks.
  349. [18:28:00] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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  351. [18:28:33] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  355. [18:43:44] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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  357. [18:51:25] <sreynen> it would be need to markup http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people with hCards, and have jibot reference that for introductions
  358. [18:51:30] <sreynen> s/need/neat/
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  372. [20:20:36] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  377. [20:52:18] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, a web developer for Yahoo! and a person too
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  381. [21:06:20] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  383. [21:08:53] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  387. [21:20:17] <mfbot> [[hlisting-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-feedback&diff=0&oldid=18158 * Tantek * (+13495) Reverted edit of LnkJum, changed back to last version by Tantek
  388. [21:20:43] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:LnkJum" with an expiry time of infinite: vandalism
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  393. [21:45:08] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  394. [21:47:43] <drewinthehead> hey julianstahnke
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  396. [22:01:58] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@205.169.187.2) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  397. [22:02:05] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@205.169.187.2) has joined #microformats
  398. [22:03:15] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
  399. [22:05:12] * V-I-P is a technical writer student and runs www.dailymentor.org and www.dieweisheit.de
  400. [22:05:15] <V-I-P> :D
  401. [22:05:50] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
  402. [22:05:51] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewinthehead
  403. [22:06:31] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  404. [22:12:41] <mfbot> [[hbib-discussion-2005-05-14]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hbib-discussion-2005-05-14&diff=0&oldid=18159 * GjwSo2 * (-2952)
  405. [22:12:47] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-36-151-200.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  406. [22:12:51] * AGraf`` (n=Ashe@213.47.199.86) Quit ("Quit")
  407. [22:13:42] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@205.169.187.2) Quit ()
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  411. [22:23:18] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  412. [22:33:11] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  413. [22:50:13] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=18160 * JamesCraig * (-912) cleaning up FUD
  414. [23:00:57] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=18161 * JamesCraig * (+576) Discussion - answering questions
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  417. [23:26:58] <jibot> swerdna is James Andrews and can be found online at http://jamesandre.ws
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  420. [23:29:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  421. [23:29:19] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  422. [23:37:17] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) Quit ()
  423. [23:38:05] * swerdna (n=jandrews@client-82-2-83-122.manc.adsl.virgin.net) Quit ("Leaving...")
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  426. [23:59:27] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106001346fa7d6d.wp.shawcable.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))

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