IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-07-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:00:35] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [00:09:09] <jibot>
epeus is Kevin Marks and the new bodysnatcher
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- [00:38:07] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [00:57:03] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [02:09:44] <jibot>
McUnixJr is here & there & everywhere & might be at http://www.jamesmcmurry.com & esta buscando el trabajo & the first to crash the released iPhone
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- [02:29:08] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [02:38:15] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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- [02:42:31] <mfbot>
[[User:IwaiMasaharu/english-to-japanese-map]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:IwaiMasaharu/english-to-japanese-map&diff=0&oldid=18266 * Wn3Pdf * (+0)
- [02:45:02] <mfbot>
[[User:IwaiMasaharu/english-to-japanese-map]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:IwaiMasaharu/english-to-japanese-map&diff=0&oldid=18267 * Tantek * (+0) Reverted edit of Wn3Pdf, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [02:45:18] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Wn3Pdf" with an expiry time of infinite: vandalism
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- [03:03:47] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [03:46:22] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [05:23:05] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [06:16:30] <mfbot>
[[hatom-hints]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-hints&diff=0&oldid=18268 * Ao4Ogb * (-4162)
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- [06:17:09] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [07:08:40] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [07:25:44] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [07:34:58] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [07:41:59] <jibot>
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, a web developer for Yahoo! and curator of tools.microformatic.com
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- [07:43:03] <jibot>
KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs
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- [08:03:25] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [08:19:39] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [08:26:08] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [08:29:12] <drewinthehead>
hey tantek
- [08:29:18] <tantek>
hey drew
- [08:29:46] <drewinthehead>
i had a question r.e. the hReview spec examples
- [08:30:00] <tantek>
i've decided that i will ignore emails to the lists that contain false assertions with no substantiation (aka troll emails)
- [08:30:08] <tantek>
oh go ahead
- [08:30:25] <drewinthehead>
(good plan)
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- [08:30:53] <drewinthehead>
in the hReview spec the examples are laid out in pairs, first POSH and then the same with hReview applied
- [08:31:19] <drewinthehead>
in most cases, the POSH example uses a BLOCKQUOTE element, and in the hReview version this is replaced with a DIV
- [08:31:50] <drewinthehead>
i'm struggling to understand why, or if it's just a copy and paste error
- [08:32:02] <tantek>
actually what you say is "POSH" is just what happened to be in the source example
- [08:32:16] <tantek>
it may be POSH but merely accidentally
- [08:32:26] <tantek>
the "before" examples were taken from actual review sites/programs
- [08:32:31] <drewinthehead>
oh ok
- [08:32:59] <tantek>
could you give a URL to a specific example which you are trying to understand?
- [08:33:10] <drewinthehead>
so the assertion is that BLOCKQUOTE isn't being used appropriately in the 'before' ?
- [08:33:12] <drewinthehead>
sure
- [08:34:25] <drewinthehead>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview#Product_review
- [08:34:42] <drewinthehead>
the BLOCKQUOTE in 'before' becomes a DIV in 'after'
- [08:35:28] <drewinthehead>
personally i'd not use BLOCKQUOTE there at all
- [08:35:35] * tantek checks wiki
- [08:35:54] <drewinthehead>
i suspect there's more cleaning up of the markup occurring than simply applying hReview
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- [08:37:51] <tantek>
yes, certainly in that case
- [08:38:14] <tantek>
where the single blockquote element surrounded two *different* quoting contexts
- [08:38:20] <tantek>
and thus was not really appropriate
- [08:38:30] <tantek>
the simplest thing was to downgrade the whole thing to a div
- [08:38:52] <tantek>
though it could have also been turned into two blockquotes with some more work
- [08:39:45] <drewinthehead>
that makes sense
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- [08:40:00] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
- [08:41:07] <drewinthehead>
my concern is that there's rather a lot happening
- [08:43:00] <drewinthehead>
but then perhaps the sort of simple A:B comparison examples I'm thinking of are more suited to a different document.
- [08:43:53] * drewinthehead will be back shortly.
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- [08:55:41] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT) and works for Yahoo! in Europe
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- [09:00:40] * drewinthehead returns
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- [09:17:24] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
- [09:20:16] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-078.mweb.co.za) has joined #microformats
- [09:20:16] <jibot>
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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- [09:47:45] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=18269 * AndyMabbett * (+88) Upcoming - CalConnect vCard Workshop
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V-I-P is a technical writer student and runs http://www.dailymentor.org and blogs at http://www.dieweisheit.de
- [10:05:33] <mfbot>
[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=18270 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Upcoming - |
- [10:07:04] <mfbot>
[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=18271 * AndyMabbett * (+243) Upcoming - CalCOnnect description
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[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=18272 * AndyMabbett * (-13) Upcoming - copy edit
- [10:17:47] <mfbot>
[[events-template]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events-template * AndyMabbett * (+992)
- [10:18:13] <mfbot>
[[events-template]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-template&diff=0&oldid=18273 * AndyMabbett * (+4) link
- [10:19:14] <mfbot>
[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=18274 * AndyMabbett * (+84) events template
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[[events/2007-09-18-calconnect-vcard-workshop]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-09-18-calconnect-vcard-workshop * AndyMabbett * (+893)
- [10:23:31] <mfbot>
[[events-template]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-template&diff=0&oldid=18275 * AndyMabbett * (-33) fixes
- [10:25:22] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-09-18-calconnect-vcard-workshop]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-09-18-calconnect-vcard-workshop&diff=0&oldid=18276 * AndyMabbett * (+626) summary
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[[events/2007-09-18-calconnect-vcard-workshop]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-09-18-calconnect-vcard-workshop&diff=0&oldid=18277 * AndyMabbett * (+1) /
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[[mediawiki-customization-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/mediawiki-customization-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+3653) [fr:translation mediawiki-customization / to be peer-reviewed]
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[[mediawiki-customization-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mediawiki-customization-fr&diff=0&oldid=18278 * ChristopheDucamp * (+79)
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[[mediawiki-customization-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mediawiki-customization-fr&diff=0&oldid=18279 * ChristopheDucamp * (+7)
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[[mediawiki-customization-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mediawiki-customization-fr&diff=0&oldid=18280 * ChristopheDucamp * (-6) Buts et motivations -
- [11:15:15] <mfbot>
[[User:ChristopheDucamp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=18281 * ChristopheDucamp * (-233) deleting link to talk page and wiki-node
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[[naming-conventions-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=naming-conventions-fr&diff=0&oldid=18282 * ChristopheDucamp * (+774) [fr: translation sync'd with source]
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[[naming-conventions-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=naming-conventions-fr&diff=0&oldid=18283 * ChristopheDucamp * (-4)
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[[naming-conventions-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=naming-conventions-fr&diff=0&oldid=18284 * ChristopheDucamp * (+4) [fr: grammar]
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[[naming-conventions-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=naming-conventions-fr&diff=0&oldid=18285 * ChristopheDucamp * (+6)
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[[naming-conventions-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=naming-conventions-fr&diff=0&oldid=18286 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1)
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[[how-to-play-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play-fr&diff=0&oldid=18287 * ChristopheDucamp * (+334)
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[[how-to-play-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play-fr&diff=0&oldid=18288 * ChristopheDucamp * (+7) [fr: grammar]
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[[how-to-play-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play-fr&diff=0&oldid=18289 * ChristopheDucamp * (+7)
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[[plain-old-xml-considered-harmful]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-old-xml-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=18290 * UowYqd * (+0)
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- [12:33:34] <jibot>
V-I-P is a technical writer student and runs http://www.dailymentor.org and blogs at http://www.dieweisheit.de
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[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=18291 * AndyMabbett * (-1) fmt
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amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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[[plain-old-xml-considered-harmful]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-old-xml-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=18292 * Phae * (+0) Reverted edit of UowYqd, changed back to last version by Tantek
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[[hatom-hints]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-hints&diff=0&oldid=18293 * Phae * (+4162) Reverted edit of Ao4Ogb, changed back to last version by Tantek
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Phae * (+0) blocked "User:Ao4Ogb" with an expiry time of infinite: vandalism
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Phae * (+0) blocked "User:UowYqd" with an expiry time of infinite: vandalism
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- [14:36:26] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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- [14:37:58] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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- [15:20:34] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [15:59:31] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [16:13:35] * Speck (n=chatzill@dsl093-057-099.blt1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [16:17:15] <Speck>
I think I know why microformat data is encapsulated in the class attribute (works cross-browser in html/xhtml/whatever), but thinking about microformats made me wonder what advantages/disadvantages there would be if the microformat data were presented as namespaced attributes (e.g., hcalendar:startdate="blah"). I'm not suggesting microformats should change; I am interested in the possibility...
- [16:17:16] <Speck>
...of this technique for passing data to unobtrusive javascript. Any thoughts?
- [16:18:13] <tantek>
Speck - namespaced attributes are undesirable for numerous reasons. invalid. unstylable. invisible. ugly.
- [16:18:16] <Speck>
The biggest problem I see is browser support. It needs to be XHTML, sent as text/xml-xhtml which is poorly supported, especially wrt. namespaces between browsers.
- [16:18:40] <Speck>
Surely they aren't invisible, nor invalid.
- [16:18:44] <tantek>
and yes, lack of browser support is a nonstarter
- [16:19:12] <tantek>
data in namespaced attributes (most attributes for that matter) is invisible to the user and thus undesirable.
- [16:19:39] <Speck>
see, I'm thinking about data that is only relevant to the workings of javascript, not for user consumption.
- [16:19:43] <tantek>
namespaced attributes are invalid yes. unless you can point to a standard that shows *how* to validate them, and a validation service that *does* validate them. good luck.
- [16:20:05] <Speck>
validity and validators don't align here, but it's valid
- [16:20:10] <Speck>
in XHTML at least
- [16:20:12] <tantek>
nope.
- [16:20:19] <tantek>
you need to cite a spec that demonstrates that
- [16:20:26] <tantek>
so far none exists
- [16:20:37] <tantek>
for multi-namespace validation of documents
- [16:20:44] <tantek>
like i said, good luck.
- [16:20:54] <tantek>
w3c never solved this problem.
- [16:21:03] <tantek>
and btw microformats are not trying to solve non-user data.
- [16:21:21] <tantek>
i'd recommend just sticking with JSON for programmatic data, don't even bother with markup
- [16:22:48] <mfbot>
[[namespaces-considered-harmful]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=18294 * Tantek * (+48)
- [16:23:05] <Speck>
that's the kind of link I am looking for. thanks
- [16:24:33] <jibot>
Hwin is horseygurl trying to go undercover, and a crazy 50s housewife and "homies" with Jacques Torres
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- [16:24:54] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [16:25:23] <Speck>
arguments against seem to be practical, which is disappointing, because in the theoretical I see namespaced content as a big win. It's off-topic, so I'll bugger off. Good-day.
- [16:26:21] <taaz>
Speck: have you looked at RDFa?
- [16:28:09] <Speck>
taaz: no, but from the examples this addresses a different idea from mine. I am not looking to have content in namespaced attributes, what I am thinking is declarative behaviors in XHTML for an unobtrusive js to consume.
- [16:29:04] <Speck>
(I am wary of being so off-topic here, so if anyone wants to continue a discussion please recommend another channel...)
- [16:30:14] <drewinthehead>
Speck: you nailed it with practical vs theoretical. microformats are all about the practical. :)
- [16:30:18] <taaz>
i'm not sure what that means. :) Operator is js and reads microformats and RDFa
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- [16:34:17] <tantek>
but operator *does* something practical with the microformats (like allowing you to add to your address book etc.). what does it do with random RDFa? just display an abstract tree/graph of data?
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[[namespaced-attributes-considered-harmful]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaced-attributes-considered-harmful * Tantek * (+1959) drafted
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[[invisible-data-considered-harmful]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/invisible-data-considered-harmful * Tantek * (+332) drafted
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[[content-type]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/content-type * Tantek * (+581) drafted
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[[events/2007-07-11-explorcampparis2-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-11-explorcampparis2-fr&diff=0&oldid=18295 * CharlesNepote * (+19) Présentateurs - + CharlesNepote
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- [18:00:40] <jibot>
KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs
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iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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[[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=18296 * Steve Ganz * (+149) Adding LinkedIn Public Profiles to Implementations
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[[hcalendar-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=18297 * Baxter * (+153) Browsing -
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[[hcalendar-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=18298 * Baxter * (+11) Browsing -
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Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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- [19:54:20] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [20:54:37] <jibot>
KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs
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julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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- [21:25:49] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [21:36:36] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [21:51:16] <mfbot>
[[hreview-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=18299 * JoeB * (+218) New Examples -
- [21:53:02] <mfbot>
[[hreview-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=18300 * JoeB * (+14) New Examples -
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- [21:56:03] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=18301 * JoeB * (+196) New Examples -
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csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [22:25:54] <jibot>
veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com>
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- [22:50:23] <SignpostMarv>
boo- got an hResume question if anyone's awake
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- [22:51:59] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [22:53:26] <bewest>
SignpostMarv: go ahead and ask
- [22:54:28] <SignpostMarv>
how are multiple roles within a company to be handled
- [22:54:41] <SignpostMarv>
e.g. being a part of multiple departments concurrently
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- [23:08:32] <tantek_>
SignpostMarv, URL to a real example in the wild?
- [23:08:34] <tantek_>
bewest, always ask for that ;)
- [23:15:33] <SignpostMarv>
there's a blurb in the wiki about "one or more job titles/positions in the same experience event", so i was thinking i could use multiple hCards as the spec suggests, but there doesn't seem to be any explicity way of indicating a department in hResume
- [23:17:38] <SignpostMarv>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hResume#Job_Titles
- [23:25:37] <tantek_>
you can indicate a department in the hCard for that that hCalendar event for that job
- [23:25:51] <tantek_>
take a look at organization
- [23:25:56] <tantek_>
rather
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- [23:26:05] <tantek_>
lrg
- [23:26:06] <tantek_>
org
- [23:27:33] <tantek_>
in particular the organization-unit and organization-name subproperties of org
- [23:27:46] <tantek_>
that would be good to add to hcard-authoring
- [23:28:08] <tantek_>
"how do I mark up the name of the department I am in in addition to the name of the company?"
- [23:28:23] <SignpostMarv>
organization-unit would be used for indicating department ?
- [23:28:26] <tantek_>
use organization-unit for the department and organization-name for the company
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- [23:30:49] <SignpostMarv>
can a "title" element be a child of an "org" element ?
- [23:34:09] <SignpostMarv>
http://pastebin.ca/613419
- [23:34:54] <SignpostMarv>
whoops, forgot to add <span class="title"> around the titles
- [23:37:08] * SignpostMarv has updated the pastebin
- [23:37:15] <SignpostMarv>
http://pastebin.ca/613422
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- [23:44:29] <BobJonkman>
SignpostMarv: I think the HTML is legal enought, but as a microformat only the first title element will be picked up and associated with the entire vcard, not individual organizational-unit
- [23:45:18] <SignpostMarv>
hrm...
- [23:45:21] * SignpostMarv tweaks
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- [23:45:48] <BobJonkman>
I've cut'n'pasted it to http://sobac.com/temp/mf.htm so you can try it with a parser
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- [23:46:36] <BobJonkman>
Added a wrapper for class="vcard" and class="n fn"
- [23:46:41] <SignpostMarv>
using the export contact option in Operator, only the first title is listed, but all departments are indicated
- [23:46:53] <BobJonkman>
That's what I would expect
- [23:47:06] <BobJonkman>
Title isn't a plural value
- [23:47:54] <SignpostMarv>
a blurb on singular properties would help, similar to the one in the hcard article
- [23:48:42] <tantek_>
signpostMarv, but you are making an hCard
- [23:51:37] <SignpostMarv>
partial example
- [23:51:58] <SignpostMarv>
also, http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume#Job_Titles
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- [23:52:45] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
- [23:52:55] <tantek_>
those job titles come from the hCard
- [23:53:01] <tantek_>
s
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- [23:53:27] <BobJonkman>
That's not a plural value on a single hcard, but a new hcard for each job descriptions, each with its own title property
- [23:53:38] <tantek_>
right
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- [23:54:58] <SignpostMarv>
http://dev.signpostmarv.name/pub/microformats/dept.html
- [23:56:01] * SignpostMarv tweaks that example so it plays nice with Operator
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- [23:58:40] <BobJonkman>
SignpostMarv: It looks about right... I've never liked the way that object elements are rendered, and haven't got around to making it pretty with CSS
- [23:58:52] <BobJonkman>
Which is why my hResume is only partially complete
- [23:58:57] <SignpostMarv>
tweaked
- [23:59:34] <SignpostMarv>
opreator now shows 1 Joe Blogs entry, and 4 Joe Blogs (Foo) entries
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