IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-07-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:16:50] * tantek (n=tantek@c-71-202-121-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
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  3. [00:39:17] <mfbot> [[history-of-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-of-microformats&diff=0&oldid=18414 * Tantek * (+249)
  4. [00:39:33] <mfbot> [[history]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+145) history moved to history-disambiguation
  5. [00:40:14] <mfbot> [[history]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history&diff=0&oldid=18415 * Tantek * (+0)
  6. [00:41:22] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=18416 * Tantek * (+306) Tantek -
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  8. [01:58:01] <mfbot> [[User:Kevin Marks]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Kevin_Marks * Kevin Marks * (+66) PD licence
  9. [02:23:28] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=18417 * Maqr * (+150)
  10. [02:25:39] <mfbot> [[User:RyanKing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:RyanKing&diff=0&oldid=18418 * RyanKing * (+19) PD
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  19. [04:32:50] <mfbot> [[press]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=press&diff=0&oldid=18419 * Kevin Marks * (+64) July 2007 -
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  38. [08:09:20] <mfbot> [[User:Adactio]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Adactio&diff=0&oldid=18420 * Adactio * (+32)
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  47. [09:18:56] <McNulty> where can I download X2v?
  48. [09:19:14] <McNulty> I got it from brian suda's site but it seems to have external dependencies
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  50. [09:55:06] <mfbot> [[User:Phae]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Phae&diff=0&oldid=18421 * Phae * (+23) adding CC
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  64. [12:58:17] <mfbot> [[User:DanCederholm]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:DanCederholm * DanCederholm * (+30)
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  114. [17:14:17] <designerbrent> I have a question about the fax 'tel' type on the hcard...
  115. [17:14:47] <designerbrent> why is fax typed by phone is not? (on http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Live_example)
  116. [17:23:11] * danja (n=danja@host182-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  117. [17:33:23] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-b34d76af373604bf) has joined #microformats
  118. [17:34:21] <KevinMarks> http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/the_limitations_of_json -facepalm re FOAFing address data
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  125. [17:58:42] <mfbot> [[User:Rohit]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Rohit&diff=0&oldid=18422 * Rohit * (+1086)
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  128. [18:02:13] <mfbot> [[Category:public domain license]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Category:public_domain_license * Rohit * (+514)
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  135. [18:30:11] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
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  138. [18:32:29] <jibot> bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
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  145. [18:59:23] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  148. [19:16:11] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  149. [19:45:14] <run1> thank god we have the bot to introduce people
  150. [19:45:22] <run1> because if not the channel would sound like dead
  151. [19:59:28] <Atamido> What does dead sound like?
  152. [20:00:33] <Atamido> There was a conversation two and a half days ago.
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  154. [20:07:00] * mkaply (n=mkaply@65.205.184.195) has joined #microformats
  155. [20:07:00] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  156. [20:08:16] <run1> :)
  157. [20:17:56] * eigentone (n=craig@206-248-134-242.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
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  159. [20:29:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  160. [20:29:36] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  161. [20:33:36] * briansuda thought people we not going to response to the img thread for a few days?
  162. [20:46:23] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.4/2007051502]")
  163. [20:47:12] * V-I-P (i=Xx9vPOIj@nat-wh-1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de) has joined #microformats
  164. [20:47:12] <jibot> V-I-P is a technical writer student and runs http://www.dailymentor.org and blogs at http://www.dieweisheit.de
  165. [20:50:26] <mkaply> briansuda: I don't think it is an easy problem to solve the more I think abou tit
  166. [20:51:10] <briansuda> i´m not sure it is a problem.
  167. [20:51:23] <briansuda> it is an edge case that can be solved with class value
  168. [20:51:41] <briansuda> if we start making IF this, or IF that or NOT this... then it is no longer easy to publish either!
  169. [20:52:41] <briansuda> the current problems are solvable currently, if we want to explore img-optimiations we can, but not the default case
  170. [20:53:14] <briansuda> there are 2 issues which are being confused that need to be seperated before it can proceed
  171. [20:53:39] <mkaply> but can we use class value on rel microformats?
  172. [20:54:12] <mkaply> I know I don't do that
  173. [20:54:47] <briansuda> no that is one of the issues
  174. [20:54:51] <briansuda> rel defines HREF
  175. [20:54:58] <briansuda> not TITLE or Node value
  176. [20:55:07] <briansuda> you need a 1:1 relationship
  177. [20:55:19] <briansuda> you have have a single REL value define an HREF AND a TITLE
  178. [20:55:25] <briansuda> those are 2 different things
  179. [20:55:50] <briansuda> i am happy to leave this as a NOT A SPEC issue, just like rel-license, let the market decide HOW to label the link
  180. [20:56:01] <mkaply> Do any of the rel microfomrats use the text of the tag as part of the spec?
  181. [20:56:10] <mkaply> Or is it always about the href
  182. [20:56:11] <briansuda> use the HREF value, use the NODE value, use TITLE, that is not a spec issue... the market will find the best way
  183. [20:56:32] <briansuda> always HREF., thats an HTML semantic
  184. [20:57:02] <briansuda> vote-links, rel-tag, rel-license, rel-dir, no-follow, all HREF
  185. [20:57:35] <briansuda> this rel title desciption is orthagonal to IMG issue
  186. [20:58:11] <briansuda> with or without an IMG, ABBR, OBJECT inside an "a" element the title is NOT defined by the REL
  187. [20:58:23] <mkaply> but his img issue is moot. Because he hasn't shown me a case where the img is actually part of a microformat
  188. [20:58:26] <mkaply> all the examples are classes
  189. [20:58:33] <mkaply> when would the download link be a part of the microformat?
  190. [20:58:42] <briansuda> purely for display
  191. [20:58:55] <briansuda> much like your rel-license display in operator
  192. [20:59:21] <bewest> which issue are you discussing?
  193. [20:59:21] <briansuda> it is an application-by-application decision (IMHO) not a spec issue
  194. [20:59:33] <bewest> the img/alt-value thing?
  195. [20:59:41] <briansuda> bewest, sort of yes...
  196. [21:00:07] <briansuda> just talking out loud about how this is two seperate issues being confused...
  197. [21:00:13] <bewest> what is the other issue?
  198. [21:00:17] <briansuda> IMHO, one is not an issue
  199. [21:00:32] * dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  200. [21:00:34] <briansuda> bewest, it is probably quicker to read the archives,... you only missed 5 minutes
  201. [21:00:37] <bewest> resolving a value for uses of rel?
  202. [21:00:38] <bewest> ok
  203. [21:00:56] <bewest> yeah, sorry, is that the beginning?
  204. [21:01:01] <briansuda> yes, the property value of a REL is always coming from the HREF
  205. [21:01:03] <bewest> there seems to be something involving rel- I'm not familiar with
  206. [21:01:12] <briansuda> not a prob
  207. [21:01:22] <briansuda> we had a similar discussion with rel-license
  208. [21:01:33] <briansuda> Operator extracts the license data
  209. [21:01:39] <briansuda> but REL is connected to the HREF
  210. [21:01:44] * bewest sees there is a veritable flurry of posts on the list he has missed
  211. [21:01:51] <briansuda> this is how you determine which license is being used
  212. [21:02:10] <briansuda> but in operator it doesn´t mean alot to folks to have a HUGE link in the menu as an action...
  213. [21:02:33] <briansuda> so we kicked around how to make a nice display label... this is NOT part of the spec, and IMHO shouldn´t be....
  214. [21:03:15] <briansuda> should Operator use the TITLE value, the Node value, something else? or an ENUM list of known URLS and display an internal label list
  215. [21:03:26] <briansuda> this is up to the application, not the spec
  216. [21:03:51] <briansuda> so i´d say extracting LABEL values for REL values is something we should NOT define
  217. [21:05:12] <briansuda> the other issue is the use if IMG alt which has been causing more of the problems, but i think it started because there was a yearning to extract a LABEL for a REL value from a child IMG that is not explicitly marked-up as microformatted data
  218. [21:05:26] <mkaply> I've looked at some title values and they could be anything
  219. [21:05:45] <mkaply> I could do something in Operator in the UI only...
  220. [21:05:55] <briansuda> the other trap this sets is, do we do the same for ABBR or DFN or OBJECTs
  221. [21:05:59] <mkaply> Like if text was empty, and there was a fchild image node, use alt
  222. [21:06:13] <briansuda> can you imaging expaning a paragraph for a NOTE that has ABBRs and IMG?
  223. [21:06:56] <briansuda> i personally do like IF, then, or IF, else, then choose, else, unless... it creates way too many depenancies - we are not boiling the oceans here!
  224. [21:06:57] * V-I-P (i=Xx9vPOIj@nat-wh-1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de) Quit (No route to host)
  225. [21:07:11] * danja (n=danja@host182-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  226. [21:07:19] * danja (n=danja@host182-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  227. [21:07:32] <mfbot> [[User:BenWest]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:BenWest&diff=0&oldid=18423 * BenWest * (+27) adding public-domain-release.
  228. [21:11:17] * run1 (n=runa@200.69.209.25) Quit (Connection timed out)
  229. [21:14:21] * briansuda apologies for his diatribe
  230. [21:14:31] <bewest> I fail to see why @class=value wouldn't solve it
  231. [21:15:31] <briansuda> it does
  232. [21:15:46] <briansuda> that´s what is confusing me too
  233. [21:16:10] <bewest> oh
  234. [21:16:13] <bewest> very good
  235. [21:16:16] <briansuda> at the time X2V didn´t actually support it, but no one was asking, i fixed that over the week so you can do something like this:
  236. [21:16:40] <mkaply> Yeah. Operator was broke as well (fixed)
  237. [21:16:48] <briansuda> <div class="fn"><img src="B.jpg" alt="B" class="value"><span class="value">rian</span></div>
  238. [21:17:04] <briansuda> that will generate Brian as the value of FN
  239. [21:17:25] <bewest> ah
  240. [21:17:32] <bewest> that's weird
  241. [21:17:35] <briansuda> i admit it is slightly more mark-up with extra span, but ut solves the problem today, and this is NOT a common problem
  242. [21:18:06] <bewest> I don't see what's wrong with <div class="fn"><img src="brian.jpg" /> <span class="value">Brian</span></div>
  243. [21:18:09] <briansuda> X2V is probably over a year old and this is the first time anyone as asked for this
  244. [21:18:56] <briansuda> well someone might want to do fancy drop caps or something... i no expect the unexpected
  245. [21:19:52] <bewest> hrm
  246. [21:20:08] <bewest> seems silly to replace perfectly good text with images, to me
  247. [21:20:31] <briansuda> that is not up to me to decide
  248. [21:20:37] <briansuda> i do know that people do this:
  249. [21:21:16] <briansuda> <div class="tel"><img src="home.jpg">123-456-7890</div>
  250. [21:21:37] <briansuda> that sort of code would break with this new implementation, which i disagree with
  251. [21:23:23] <briansuda> well, assuming that IMG also had an ALT which is required for validation
  252. [21:25:42] <taaz> i still like my little patch that i think caused all this discussion. just use title on the anchor.
  253. [21:26:01] * amir (n=Miranda@gentoo/developer/amir) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
  254. [21:26:35] <taaz> somehow that is unacceptable and started this img alt thing.
  255. [21:26:39] * taaz shrugs
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  257. [21:29:32] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-b34d76af373604bf) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  258. [21:36:55] <taaz> there doesn't seem to be any answer for what i could even use as a current hack for an a+img value
  259. [21:38:18] * danja (n=danja@host182-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Connection timed out)
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  261. [21:45:48] * mkaply (n=mkaply@65.205.184.195) Quit ("Leaving")
  262. [21:50:10] <mfbot> [[User:DanC]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:DanC&diff=0&oldid=18424 * DanC * (+28) public domain release
  263. [21:55:29] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
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  279. [23:46:24] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-5de726e62a395112) has joined #microformats
  280. [23:46:24] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs
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