IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-07-16
Timestamps are in UTC.
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[[history-of-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history-of-microformats&diff=0&oldid=18414 * Tantek * (+249)
- [00:39:33] <mfbot>
[[history]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+145) history moved to history-disambiguation
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[[history]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=history&diff=0&oldid=18415 * Tantek * (+0)
- [00:41:22] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=18416 * Tantek * (+306) Tantek -
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[[User:Kevin Marks]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Kevin_Marks * Kevin Marks * (+66) PD licence
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[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=18417 * Maqr * (+150)
- [02:25:39] <mfbot>
[[User:RyanKing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:RyanKing&diff=0&oldid=18418 * RyanKing * (+19) PD
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[[press]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=press&diff=0&oldid=18419 * Kevin Marks * (+64) July 2007 -
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[[User:Adactio]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Adactio&diff=0&oldid=18420 * Adactio * (+32)
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- [09:18:56] <McNulty>
where can I download X2v?
- [09:19:14] <McNulty>
I got it from brian suda's site but it seems to have external dependencies
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[[User:Phae]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Phae&diff=0&oldid=18421 * Phae * (+23) adding CC
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[[User:DanCederholm]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:DanCederholm * DanCederholm * (+30)
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- [17:14:17] <designerbrent>
I have a question about the fax 'tel' type on the hcard...
- [17:14:47] <designerbrent>
why is fax typed by phone is not? (on http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Live_example)
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- [17:34:21] <KevinMarks>
http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/the_limitations_of_json -facepalm re FOAFing address data
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[[User:Rohit]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Rohit&diff=0&oldid=18422 * Rohit * (+1086)
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[[Category:public domain license]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Category:public_domain_license * Rohit * (+514)
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- [18:32:29] <jibot>
bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
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- [18:59:23] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [19:16:11] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
- [19:45:14] <run1>
thank god we have the bot to introduce people
- [19:45:22] <run1>
because if not the channel would sound like dead
- [19:59:28] <Atamido>
What does dead sound like?
- [20:00:33] <Atamido>
There was a conversation two and a half days ago.
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- [20:07:00] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
- [20:08:16] <run1>
:)
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- [20:29:36] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
- [20:33:36] * briansuda thought people we not going to response to the img thread for a few days?
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- [20:47:12] <jibot>
V-I-P is a technical writer student and runs http://www.dailymentor.org and blogs at http://www.dieweisheit.de
- [20:50:26] <mkaply>
briansuda: I don't think it is an easy problem to solve the more I think abou tit
- [20:51:10] <briansuda>
i´m not sure it is a problem.
- [20:51:23] <briansuda>
it is an edge case that can be solved with class value
- [20:51:41] <briansuda>
if we start making IF this, or IF that or NOT this... then it is no longer easy to publish either!
- [20:52:41] <briansuda>
the current problems are solvable currently, if we want to explore img-optimiations we can, but not the default case
- [20:53:14] <briansuda>
there are 2 issues which are being confused that need to be seperated before it can proceed
- [20:53:39] <mkaply>
but can we use class value on rel microformats?
- [20:54:12] <mkaply>
I know I don't do that
- [20:54:47] <briansuda>
no that is one of the issues
- [20:54:51] <briansuda>
rel defines HREF
- [20:54:58] <briansuda>
not TITLE or Node value
- [20:55:07] <briansuda>
you need a 1:1 relationship
- [20:55:19] <briansuda>
you have have a single REL value define an HREF AND a TITLE
- [20:55:25] <briansuda>
those are 2 different things
- [20:55:50] <briansuda>
i am happy to leave this as a NOT A SPEC issue, just like rel-license, let the market decide HOW to label the link
- [20:56:01] <mkaply>
Do any of the rel microfomrats use the text of the tag as part of the spec?
- [20:56:10] <mkaply>
Or is it always about the href
- [20:56:11] <briansuda>
use the HREF value, use the NODE value, use TITLE, that is not a spec issue... the market will find the best way
- [20:56:32] <briansuda>
always HREF., thats an HTML semantic
- [20:57:02] <briansuda>
vote-links, rel-tag, rel-license, rel-dir, no-follow, all HREF
- [20:57:35] <briansuda>
this rel title desciption is orthagonal to IMG issue
- [20:58:11] <briansuda>
with or without an IMG, ABBR, OBJECT inside an "a" element the title is NOT defined by the REL
- [20:58:23] <mkaply>
but his img issue is moot. Because he hasn't shown me a case where the img is actually part of a microformat
- [20:58:26] <mkaply>
all the examples are classes
- [20:58:33] <mkaply>
when would the download link be a part of the microformat?
- [20:58:42] <briansuda>
purely for display
- [20:58:55] <briansuda>
much like your rel-license display in operator
- [20:59:21] <bewest>
which issue are you discussing?
- [20:59:21] <briansuda>
it is an application-by-application decision (IMHO) not a spec issue
- [20:59:33] <bewest>
the img/alt-value thing?
- [20:59:41] <briansuda>
bewest, sort of yes...
- [21:00:07] <briansuda>
just talking out loud about how this is two seperate issues being confused...
- [21:00:13] <bewest>
what is the other issue?
- [21:00:17] <briansuda>
IMHO, one is not an issue
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- [21:00:34] <briansuda>
bewest, it is probably quicker to read the archives,... you only missed 5 minutes
- [21:00:37] <bewest>
resolving a value for uses of rel?
- [21:00:38] <bewest>
ok
- [21:00:56] <bewest>
yeah, sorry, is that the beginning?
- [21:01:01] <briansuda>
yes, the property value of a REL is always coming from the HREF
- [21:01:03] <bewest>
there seems to be something involving rel- I'm not familiar with
- [21:01:12] <briansuda>
not a prob
- [21:01:22] <briansuda>
we had a similar discussion with rel-license
- [21:01:33] <briansuda>
Operator extracts the license data
- [21:01:39] <briansuda>
but REL is connected to the HREF
- [21:01:44] * bewest sees there is a veritable flurry of posts on the list he has missed
- [21:01:51] <briansuda>
this is how you determine which license is being used
- [21:02:10] <briansuda>
but in operator it doesn´t mean alot to folks to have a HUGE link in the menu as an action...
- [21:02:33] <briansuda>
so we kicked around how to make a nice display label... this is NOT part of the spec, and IMHO shouldn´t be....
- [21:03:15] <briansuda>
should Operator use the TITLE value, the Node value, something else? or an ENUM list of known URLS and display an internal label list
- [21:03:26] <briansuda>
this is up to the application, not the spec
- [21:03:51] <briansuda>
so i´d say extracting LABEL values for REL values is something we should NOT define
- [21:05:12] <briansuda>
the other issue is the use if IMG alt which has been causing more of the problems, but i think it started because there was a yearning to extract a LABEL for a REL value from a child IMG that is not explicitly marked-up as microformatted data
- [21:05:26] <mkaply>
I've looked at some title values and they could be anything
- [21:05:45] <mkaply>
I could do something in Operator in the UI only...
- [21:05:55] <briansuda>
the other trap this sets is, do we do the same for ABBR or DFN or OBJECTs
- [21:05:59] <mkaply>
Like if text was empty, and there was a fchild image node, use alt
- [21:06:13] <briansuda>
can you imaging expaning a paragraph for a NOTE that has ABBRs and IMG?
- [21:06:56] <briansuda>
i personally do like IF, then, or IF, else, then choose, else, unless... it creates way too many depenancies - we are not boiling the oceans here!
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- [21:07:32] <mfbot>
[[User:BenWest]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:BenWest&diff=0&oldid=18423 * BenWest * (+27) adding public-domain-release.
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- [21:14:21] * briansuda apologies for his diatribe
- [21:14:31] <bewest>
I fail to see why @class=value wouldn't solve it
- [21:15:31] <briansuda>
it does
- [21:15:46] <briansuda>
that´s what is confusing me too
- [21:16:10] <bewest>
oh
- [21:16:13] <bewest>
very good
- [21:16:16] <briansuda>
at the time X2V didn´t actually support it, but no one was asking, i fixed that over the week so you can do something like this:
- [21:16:40] <mkaply>
Yeah. Operator was broke as well (fixed)
- [21:16:48] <briansuda>
<div class="fn"><img src="B.jpg" alt="B" class="value"><span class="value">rian</span></div>
- [21:17:04] <briansuda>
that will generate Brian as the value of FN
- [21:17:25] <bewest>
ah
- [21:17:32] <bewest>
that's weird
- [21:17:35] <briansuda>
i admit it is slightly more mark-up with extra span, but ut solves the problem today, and this is NOT a common problem
- [21:18:06] <bewest>
I don't see what's wrong with <div class="fn"><img src="brian.jpg" /> <span class="value">Brian</span></div>
- [21:18:09] <briansuda>
X2V is probably over a year old and this is the first time anyone as asked for this
- [21:18:56] <briansuda>
well someone might want to do fancy drop caps or something... i no expect the unexpected
- [21:19:52] <bewest>
hrm
- [21:20:08] <bewest>
seems silly to replace perfectly good text with images, to me
- [21:20:31] <briansuda>
that is not up to me to decide
- [21:20:37] <briansuda>
i do know that people do this:
- [21:21:16] <briansuda>
<div class="tel"><img src="home.jpg">123-456-7890</div>
- [21:21:37] <briansuda>
that sort of code would break with this new implementation, which i disagree with
- [21:23:23] <briansuda>
well, assuming that IMG also had an ALT which is required for validation
- [21:25:42] <taaz>
i still like my little patch that i think caused all this discussion. just use title on the anchor.
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- [21:26:35] <taaz>
somehow that is unacceptable and started this img alt thing.
- [21:26:39] * taaz shrugs
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- [21:36:55] <taaz>
there doesn't seem to be any answer for what i could even use as a current hack for an a+img value
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- [21:50:10] <mfbot>
[[User:DanC]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:DanC&diff=0&oldid=18424 * DanC * (+28) public domain release
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- [23:46:24] <jibot>
KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs
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