IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-08-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  5. [00:30:15] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19403 * Tantek * (+93) How to contribute - read guidelines
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  15. [01:38:46] <aharth> hi, just read about the large amounts of data published in microformats
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  17. [01:39:12] <aharth> do you guys have uri lists to these sources available somewhere?
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  20. [01:49:32] <tommorris> aharth: Most are linked on the wiki pages of the relevant microformat
  21. [01:50:21] <tommorris> For instance, http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild lists lots of hCards
  22. [01:52:07] <aharth> tommorris: ok cool that sounds like a good place to start crawling then
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  24. [01:55:14] <aharth> tommorris: thanks for the pointer! i guess there are no data dumps publicly available...
  25. [01:55:51] <tommorris> No, but I'm thinking of something similar for both microformats and Semantic Web data.
  26. [01:58:24] <aharth> tommorris: would be certainly interesting to have... we have some RDF dumps but no microformats yet
  27. [01:58:58] <tommorris> Well, I'm not sure what you are doing, but you could look at PingTheSemanticWeb.com if you want to spider RSS.
  28. [01:59:12] <tommorris> I'm not sure if microformat data is turning up in there or not.
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  34. [02:21:40] <aharth_> tommorris: we're currently using pinthesemanticweb, i'll give the URIs from the wiki a try and see how it goes...
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  37. [04:20:00] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19404 * ManuSporny * (+1263) Re-arranging updates to page
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  39. [04:45:57] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19405 * ManuSporny * (+1338) Step 5: Write the First Draft -
  40. [04:48:23] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19406 * ManuSporny * (-47) Step 2: Gather Examples, Similar Projects and Documenting Current Behavior -
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  42. [04:59:24] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19407 * ManuSporny * (+1109) Step 6: Gather Feedback on First Draft -
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  44. [05:01:17] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19408 * ManuSporny * (-29) Step 0: Before You Start -
  45. [05:03:28] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19409 * ManuSporny * (+61) Step 2: Gather Examples, Similar Projects and Documenting Current Behavior -
  46. [05:04:04] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19410 * ManuSporny * (-28) Logic: Gathering Examples -
  47. [05:04:35] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19411 * ManuSporny * (-1) Step 2: Gather Examples, Similar Projects and Documenting Current Behavior -
  48. [05:05:36] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19412 * ManuSporny * (+1) fixed typo in author name
  49. [05:06:17] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19413 * ManuSporny * (+45) added brian suda to contributors
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  52. [05:07:28] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19414 * ManuSporny * (+76) more fixes to editors/authors/contributors section
  53. [05:08:34] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19415 * ManuSporny * (+175) Step 0: Before You Start -
  54. [05:10:40] <mfbot> [[how-to-start-a-new-microformat]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-start-a-new-microformat&diff=0&oldid=19416 * ManuSporny * (+199) Step 1: Determine if a New Microformat is Needed -
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  110. [12:27:20] <mfbot> [[audio-info-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-issues&diff=0&oldid=19417 * WebOrganics * (+605) Problem: Peeking into child elements to display rel-patterns -
  111. [12:28:31] <mfbot> [[audio-info-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-issues&diff=0&oldid=19418 * WebOrganics * (+51)
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  113. [12:34:33] <mfbot> [[audio-info-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-issues&diff=0&oldid=19419 * WebOrganics * (-7) Possible Solutions -
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  115. [13:00:24] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19420 * BrianOberkirch * (+153)
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  117. [13:24:51] <mfbot> [[audio-info-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-issues&diff=0&oldid=19421 * Brian * (-598) removed rel-payment example. It used LINK element description for an A element, incorrect and misleading conclusion
  118. [13:28:13] <mfbot> [[audio-info-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-issues&diff=0&oldid=19422 * Brian * (-4) removed reference to rel, this is a general issue that applies to any property, not just RELs
  119. [13:32:14] <mfbot> [[audio-info-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-issues&diff=0&oldid=19423 * Brian * (+44) Historical: Graphic buttons in rel-patterns -
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  123. [13:52:06] <mfbot> [[audio-info-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-issues&diff=0&oldid=19424 * Brian * (-1753) re-ordered the page, tried to move Q&A closer to the actual open issues
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  136. [15:06:56] <dglazkov> KevinMarks, got a sec?
  137. [15:08:17] * dglazkov is curious about edge cases of XOXO -> JSON conversion
  138. [15:14:45] <dglazkov> also, how to represent nesting
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  141. [15:22:01] <runa> btw, maybe a little offtopic. any recommended libs for storing/querying rdf in PHP?
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  147. [15:41:53] <mfbot> [[audio-album-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-album-proposal&diff=0&oldid=19425 * ManuSporny * (+2200) Added Various Artists Album Example
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  149. [16:02:23] <tommorris> runa: RAP - see http://sites.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/suhl/bizer/rdfapi/
  150. [16:02:46] <runa> tommorris: yep, I have it bookmarked. there's a 'new' one, too 'ARC'
  151. [16:02:59] <tommorris> ARC and RAP are slightly different
  152. [16:03:08] <tommorris> One is not a newer version of t'other
  153. [16:03:30] <tommorris> Both are useful in different circumstances
  154. [16:04:09] <tommorris> (Hmm. Just looking at ARC again. May use it instead of RAP in new project.)
  155. [16:05:35] <runa> why you say they're different?
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  160. [16:18:38] <sf_ghoul> I've just implemented my first microformat at http://corewar.atspace.com/about.html
  161. [16:19:40] <sf_ghoul> It seems to work with Operator, but please can someone take a look and let me know if it's ok (particularly since I've used a <dl>)
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  164. [16:27:46] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=19426 * SfGhoul * (+99) New Examples -
  165. [16:33:39] * dglazkov notices he screwed up markup on xoxo-brainstorming... Hrmph...
  166. [16:35:37] <mfbot> [[xoxo-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19427 * DimitriGlazkov * (+83) Parsing Properties -
  167. [16:37:41] <tommorris> sf_ghoul: Looks okay to me. Will test it properly in a minute
  168. [16:44:12] <tommorris> The dl-dt-dd pattern should make no difference at all, so long as the class names are in the right place in the hierarchy.
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  171. [16:56:50] <sf_ghoul> Thanks tommorris :)
  172. [16:57:08] <tommorris> no problem
  173. [16:57:36] <tommorris> Add your hCard to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild
  174. [16:57:53] <tommorris> And tell http://pingerati.net/
  175. [16:57:57] <sf_ghoul> I don't think I've got any other opportunities there to add microformats yet
  176. [16:58:08] <sf_ghoul> Does pingerati work properly?
  177. [16:58:18] <tommorris> I presume so.
  178. [16:59:04] <sf_ghoul> When I went there it listed stuff from hours ago. The I submitted mine and it didn't appear on the list :(
  179. [16:59:35] <tommorris> Oh, okay
  180. [17:00:22] <tommorris> Just looking at your site - you may be interested in an unofficial semantic project I'm working on with Phae: http://www.getsemantic.com/wiki/Non-human_profiles
  181. [17:01:35] <tommorris> It's not finished, at all. But it's basically eventually going to be an hCard-compatible way of marking up non-human things like game characters (which I see you have on your site)
  182. [17:01:50] * bengee (n=bengee@ip81.209.reserved.ish.de) Quit ("Leaving")
  183. [17:09:50] <sf_ghoul> tommorris: interesting idea, I'll keep checking back
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  197. [18:16:09] <KevinMarks> hi dglazkov
  198. [18:16:29] <KevinMarks> XOXO coud do with more test cases
  199. [18:16:42] <KevinMarks> what was the specific issue?
  200. [18:17:43] <dglazkov> I posted on uf-dev
  201. [18:17:47] <dglazkov> did that come through?
  202. [18:17:58] <dglazkov> I was worried, seeing that archives end in July
  203. [18:18:58] <KevinMarks> let me look
  204. [18:19:08] <KevinMarks> I'm migrating to gmal from mac.com for ailing lists
  205. [18:20:25] <dglazkov> fun!
  206. [18:20:55] * dglazkov about start the same, but the other way
  207. [18:20:59] <dglazkov> for the wife
  208. [18:22:43] <KevinMarks> hm, looks like my -dev sub didn't get moved. who has invite rights fro -dev?
  209. [18:23:05] <dglazkov> -dev is open, methinks
  210. [18:23:46] <dglazkov> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-dev/
  211. [18:24:06] <dglazkov> hang on, I'll just forward you the msgs directly
  212. [18:25:36] <dglazkov> sent...
  213. [18:25:43] <KevinMarks> i thought -dev was moderated access, if have developed one
  214. [18:26:32] <dglazkov> I subscribed 6 days ago, it just let me
  215. [18:26:38] <KevinMarks> OK, re-subbed
  216. [18:27:30] <KevinMarks> ah, text outside subelements is hard
  217. [18:28:52] <KevinMarks> there's the problem of ending up having to create a dict to hold the text elements, and how you deal with further embedded ones
  218. [18:29:05] <KevinMarks> do you want to make some simpler testcases?
  219. [18:29:24] * danja_ (n=danja@host136-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  220. [18:29:51] <KevinMarks> ordered dicts do get lost in python (though not in PHP)
  221. [18:30:06] <dglazkov> sure. is mine too convoluted? I tried using real-life data -- my apps configuration bit
  222. [18:30:38] <KevinMarks> Tantek and I had a big unresolved debate about this a long time ago, involving more 'special' elements to preserve ordered/unordered status
  223. [18:31:24] <KevinMarks> for the ul vs ol distinction
  224. [18:31:43] <tantek> I believe it was the user/web-designer/publisher perspective vs. the scripting-language data-structure perspective
  225. [18:32:07] <KevinMarks> yes, that was the root of the debate
  226. [18:32:29] <dglazkov> it does get quite mechanical, once you start using XOXO for configurations
  227. [18:34:04] <dglazkov> imho, there's always that balance, but I was convinced (by KevinMarks) a while ago that XOXO, however complex, is still preferable to POX.
  228. [18:34:17] <KevinMarks> it's "is your mental model json or is it html?"
  229. [18:34:30] <dglazkov> and I still am, now having to deal with both.
  230. [18:35:34] <KevinMarks> not sure if JSON predates XOXO as a name, but the python/js way of representing data structures like that is a strong draw
  231. [18:36:37] <KevinMarks> one of those things I found very clarifying mentally when moving to it from C/Java's world view
  232. [18:38:12] <dglazkov> "representing structures like that" -- like what, clarify, pls
  233. [18:38:17] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has left #microformats
  234. [18:40:20] * kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com) has joined #microformats
  235. [18:40:20] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  236. [18:40:56] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=19428 * Tantek * (+300) hReview - added a few wine sites
  237. [18:41:12] <dglazkov> KevinMarks, sorry, I just realized that Javascript and Python share object/array notation syntax
  238. [18:41:37] <KevinMarks> yes
  239. [18:41:55] <KevinMarks> thats what I meant - the {} [] sysntax
  240. [18:41:58] * dglazkov is a Python noob
  241. [18:42:37] * danja (n=danja@host93-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  242. [18:42:48] <KevinMarks> the buggering around you need to do in, say, PHP to do things that are natural in that syntax becomes painful
  243. [18:43:25] <dglazkov> tantek, KevinMarks -- I believe that XOXO -> json is near-useless if you can't complete round-trip. Do you agree with this statement?
  244. [18:43:58] <KevinMarks> well, json -> xoxo -> json is a stable round trip
  245. [18:44:24] <KevinMarks> it's xoxo -> json -> xoxo thats tricky as currently there is some structure lost
  246. [18:44:35] <dglazkov> right
  247. [18:44:54] <KevinMarks> ordering, and possible other elements that the XOXO aprser ignores
  248. [18:45:45] <dglazkov> well, from XOXO POV, only ol/ul flag is significant. order of the rest of the nodes ain't.
  249. [18:46:09] * danja_ (n=danja@host136-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  250. [18:46:35] <KevinMarks> right, but if you have classes on the li's or something they get eaten
  251. [18:46:50] <KevinMarks> so a XOXO with an hcard in would get mangled
  252. [18:47:32] <mfbot> [[xoxo-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-issues&diff=0&oldid=19429 * Tantek * (+565) noted XOXO issue of POSH perspective vs. JSON perspective
  253. [18:47:41] <dglazkov> I think that's fine. You're round-tripping XOXO, not hCard
  254. [18:48:01] * dglazkov actually thinks insignificance of class names in XOXO is great
  255. [18:48:04] <tantek> Kevin Marks, please capture more about the specific issues on that topic to http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues
  256. [18:48:09] <tantek> just added a stub entry on it
  257. [18:49:03] <mfbot> [[xoxo-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-issues&diff=0&oldid=19430 * Tantek * (+64) see also etc.
  258. [18:49:10] <dglazkov> tantek, did my posts make it to uf-dev?
  259. [18:49:12] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) has joined #microformats
  260. [18:51:34] <tantek> dglazkov - did u check the archives?
  261. [18:52:05] <dglazkov> archives end on June...
  262. [18:52:38] <dglazkov> not sure if there were no more convos, or something's broken
  263. [18:53:16] <dglazkov> kingryan, are you the official mailing list prodder?
  264. [18:54:45] <KevinMarks> the XOXO parsing code is a bit tricky with it's 2 stacks
  265. [18:55:10] <kingryan> dglazkov: what is it you need?
  266. [18:55:25] <KevinMarks> the PHP is a port of the python, so if you are a bit more comfortable with PHP that code may make more sense
  267. [18:55:55] <KevinMarks> I really need to get that into the hg repository, thats been on m y 'sort this out' list for years now
  268. [18:56:11] <dglazkov> kingryan, uf-dev archives end on June 28... is that because nobody said anything for a month or something is broken?
  269. [18:56:31] * dglazkov is a total PHP ignoramus
  270. [18:56:35] <kingryan> dglazkov: I don't have any emails since then
  271. [18:56:37] <dglazkov> Sorry :)
  272. [18:56:46] <kingryan> so i'm going to go with the latter
  273. [18:57:10] <KevinMarks> welll, I mean it's syntax is more C-like/Java-like/Perl-like than python is
  274. [18:57:25] <dglazkov> ok, I'll look at it
  275. [18:58:28] <tantek> dglazkov, the most recent dev emails I got were in June as well.
  276. [18:58:36] <KevinMarks> The Python code takes advantage of python's default of passing objects by reference in the stacks that is more explicit in the PHP
  277. [18:58:45] <KevinMarks> I just sigend up for -dev and got a response
  278. [18:59:09] <dglazkov> I got a response, too, but it appears my posts today never got to the list...
  279. [18:59:32] * dglazkov is going to check the list email address...
  280. [18:59:39] <tantek> dglazkov, make sure you are sending from the account you signed up with and make sure you are sending plain text.
  281. [18:59:48] <KevinMarks> i thought the -dev list is moderator approved
  282. [19:00:53] <KevinMarks> I think our xoxo debate was on the internal technorati wiki, so maybe ryan could extract it for us
  283. [19:01:27] <kingryan> KevinMarks: which debate?
  284. [19:01:35] * dglazkov is a dork
  285. [19:01:49] <tantek> KevinMarks, no the -dev list was opened up earlier this year I think or maybe last year to any subscriber.
  286. [19:02:11] <tantek> We made the policy a posting guideline rather than a membership requirement.
  287. [19:02:12] <KevinMarks> me and tantek talking about how to make xoxo better at preserving HTML niceties
  288. [19:02:29] <KevinMarks> something about a <0> element
  289. [19:03:03] <tantek> Kevin, feel free to braindump what you can remember onto the xoxo-issues page, I'm sure we can reconstruct
  290. [19:06:22] <dglazkov> ok, the posts came through.. sorry about that.
  291. [19:06:47] <KevinMarks> my take on XOXO is that JSON -> XOXO -> JSON should be completely deterministic; however there are type issues not handled - everything ends up being a string
  292. [19:07:01] <KevinMarks> so the 'adding types' stuff was mooted
  293. [19:07:31] <tantek> my perspective is that XOXO is a profile of what web publishers are already doing with lists outlines, especially of links (like blogrolls) on the web
  294. [19:07:58] <tantek> i.e. XOXO is determined by existing POSH publishing practice on the web
  295. [19:08:03] <KevinMarks> conversely, the XOXO -> JSON -> XOXO is trickier as HTML allows lots of variations that map to the same thing
  296. [19:08:11] <tantek> and that any programming use of it has to adapt and respect that
  297. [19:08:17] <tantek> publishers first, programmers second
  298. [19:08:21] <tantek> as it were
  299. [19:09:06] <tantek> thus anything that persists/retrieves XOXO must preserve the <a href> <dl> <ol> <ul> aspects
  300. [19:09:13] <tantek> otherwise it is lossy
  301. [19:09:36] <tantek> XOXO, as the name signifies, is XHTML
  302. [19:09:45] <tantek> the other variants (JSON etc.) are transforms
  303. [19:09:51] <tantek> the XHTML is paramount
  304. [19:09:55] <mfbot> [[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=19431 * WebOrganics * (-5936)
  305. [19:10:53] <tommorris> Ah, you see, for me, XOXO is supposed to be an HTML serialisation of OPML. There really needs to be a clear guide on how to use XOXO as an interop with native OPML.
  306. [19:11:09] <KevinMarks> that was attention.xml, not XOXO
  307. [19:11:17] <tantek> tommorris, more people publish XOXO than publish OPML, thus XOXO is the key
  308. [19:11:20] <tantek> not OPML
  309. [19:11:40] <tommorris> You wanna bet? ;) Theres lots of OPML out there...
  310. [19:11:49] <KevinMarks> teh problem is that OPML is an inconsistent serialisation too
  311. [19:11:53] <tantek> tommorris, yeah, it's called every HTML blogroll out there
  312. [19:12:26] <tantek> every instance of Wordpress for example
  313. [19:12:31] <tantek> *millions*
  314. [19:12:41] <KevinMarks> why the main OPML editor generates tables instead of lists in it's HTML serialisation baffles me
  315. [19:12:55] <tommorris> KevinMarks: legacy code.
  316. [19:13:00] <tantek> KevinMarks, it doesn't baffle me, it was written by someone who thinks of HTML as presentational, rather than POSH
  317. [19:13:14] <tantek> it's a very 1996 Netscape view of HTML
  318. [19:13:15] <KevinMarks> so, patch it tommorris
  319. [19:13:40] <KevinMarks> i did download the code once, but there was a lot of pain points ont he way to building it for me
  320. [19:13:41] <tommorris> I patch it in a roundabout way - just use XSL to transform the OPML into HTML.
  321. [19:13:53] <KevinMarks> whereas I know tommorris has built it
  322. [19:13:56] <dglazkov> my take is that there has to be a set of rules that allow taking any XHTML and produce meaningful DOM structure (JSON can serve as the serialization model for DOM) that reflects what's in the XOXO spec.
  323. [19:14:28] <tantek> dglazkov, no, not "any" XHTML
  324. [19:14:36] <tantek> just the profile outlined in the XOXO spec
  325. [19:14:47] <dglazkov> well, right
  326. [19:14:51] <tommorris> I haven't built the C code. I follow the mailing list for the people who work on the kernel, but I'm betting that the list renderer is probably not written in kernel code.
  327. [19:14:57] <tantek> that alone will get you blogrolls etc.
  328. [19:15:42] <dglazkov> so, in my definition, the round trip _is_ going to be lossy, but only for items that aren't part of the spec.
  329. [19:16:03] <dglazkov> class names on <li> aren't in XOXO spec, so they won't make it back
  330. [19:16:23] <dglazkov> but the first text node (as it seems the spec suggests) will
  331. [19:16:47] <tommorris> Ah-ha! Found the exporting code in the OPML Editor.
  332. [19:16:52] <tantek> dglazkov, that's correct
  333. [19:16:59] <tantek> that's the minimal XOXO we want to start with
  334. [19:17:07] <tantek> we need code that can roundtrip XOXO as defined in the spec now
  335. [19:17:20] <tantek> tommorris - excellent!
  336. [19:17:32] <tantek> any chance you can POSHify it, if not make it proper XOXO?
  337. [19:17:46] <KevinMarks> OPML editor also seems to default to one node at a time in HTML iirc
  338. [19:17:48] <tommorris> Well, I can get it to churn out lists.
  339. [19:17:54] <tantek> POSH reference in case folks haven't seen it: http://microformats.org/wiki/posh
  340. [19:18:02] <dglazkov> that's why I posted today on uf-dev list -- I want to clarify and set the parsing rules
  341. [19:18:04] <KevinMarks> if you're making lists, you're very close to XOXO
  342. [19:18:15] <tantek> especially if you are making nested lists
  343. [19:19:39] <tommorris> The outputted code is close to being there.
  344. [19:20:09] <tommorris> It's valid HTML 4.01 Transitional, but that doesn't mean much... ;)
  345. [19:20:26] <mfbot> [[xoxo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo&diff=0&oldid=19432 * Tantek * (-372) remove redundant Content-Type section (which also had unnecessary additional xml variant)
  346. [19:21:06] <tantek> tommorris, valid HTML 4.01 transitional is a big step
  347. [19:21:11] <tantek> especially that *valid* part ;)
  348. [19:21:25] <tommorris> The lists are sort of in the wrong order though.
  349. [19:22:51] <tommorris> The renderer takes a couple of variables - indent string, outdent string, line start string and line end string.
  350. [19:23:38] <tommorris> Currently, those map to <ul>, </ul>, <li> and </li>
  351. [19:23:38] * budGibson (n=fpgibson@c-68-42-74-202.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has left #microformats
  352. [19:23:52] <KevinMarks> ah, that has been improved then
  353. [19:23:55] <tommorris> But that means that if you have an outline with two items, "foo" and "bar", you end up with:
  354. [19:24:13] <KevinMarks> last time I looked it was tables
  355. [19:24:17] <tommorris> <li>foo</li><ul><li>bar</li></ul>
  356. [19:24:32] <mfbot> [[xoxo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo&diff=0&oldid=19433 * Tantek * (+43) moved content-type section up one, made generic to both valid and well-formed xoxo
  357. [19:24:34] <tommorris> Instead, it should be <li>foo<ul><li>bar</li></ul></li>
  358. [19:24:53] <KevinMarks> hm
  359. [19:25:11] <tantek> tommorris, correct
  360. [19:25:13] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
  361. [19:25:28] <tommorris> it looks like i might need to shunt a few of the internals around.
  362. [19:25:37] <KevinMarks> surely <ul><li>foo</li><li>bar</li></ul>
  363. [19:25:49] <tommorris> I'm testing if bar is chld of foo
  364. [19:25:54] <KevinMarks> ah
  365. [19:26:38] <tommorris> oh, another thing - because of some really creaky old code, it may render differently on Windows than on Mac.
  366. [19:26:46] <tommorris> Which platform did you test OPML Editor on?
  367. [19:27:04] * runa (n=runa@200.69.209.25) Quit ("Leaving.")
  368. [19:28:50] <KevinMarks> Mac
  369. [19:29:00] <tommorris> Okay, that's not it then.
  370. [19:29:27] <tommorris> There's some crazy code that uses Apple Events to render HTML. Very, very legacy...
  371. [19:29:37] <tantek> dglazkov i just got your -dev email
  372. [19:30:09] * dglazkov is building XOXO test cases
  373. [19:30:15] <KevinMarks> sounds like a legacy that shouldn't have made it out of probate
  374. [19:30:18] <KevinMarks> yay dglazkov
  375. [19:31:17] <tantek> Apple Events - talk about one of the *worst* data models ever (how to make something way more complicated and harder to use than anything else before it)
  376. [19:31:53] <dglazkov> worse than ASP.NET WebForms events?
  377. [19:32:00] <tantek> yes
  378. [19:32:13] <tantek> super-abstract - nearly no one could understand them
  379. [19:32:30] <tantek> an ocean-boiling effort that predated RDF
  380. [19:32:56] <dglazkov> sounds exciting.
  381. [19:33:23] <tommorris> <#a> <#b> <#c> . # so there.
  382. [19:33:23] <tommorris> ;)
  383. [19:33:36] <tommorris> Okay, we now have valid lists coming out of the OPML editor. Two lines of code changed.
  384. [19:33:59] <tommorris> Three lines of code changed and we can have class="xoxo" appended.
  385. [19:35:24] <tantek> tommorris, RDF is easier than Apple Events data model. by far.
  386. [19:36:15] <tantek> dglazkov, it *was* exciting, it promised so much, and the demos built by the folks that understood it were *incredible*
  387. [19:36:55] <tommorris> With the OPML Editor, I'll release a full Outline Renderer soon that uses XOXO.
  388. [19:37:09] <tantek> but when it came to a) applications in the wild supporting it, and b) developers in the wild being able to write scripts (in AppleScript) to manipulate it, it was one of the hardest development tasks people had often ever come upon.
  389. [19:38:10] <tommorris> Tomorrow, I'll release the patches to the system files to give you XOXO from the built-in file menu option.
  390. [19:38:12] <KevinMarks> coming up with a cross-app model for internal data structures was hard; Cocoa shoudl make this a lot easier
  391. [19:39:02] <KevinMarks> but the otehr flaw of AppleScript was that the language was designed by focus group, not by someone with a unifying vision, unlike HyperTalk or Python
  392. [19:39:13] <KevinMarks> AppleScript ends up being a read-only language
  393. [19:39:37] <KevinMarks> you can see what it is doing, but trying to change it to do something else is enormously difficult
  394. [19:39:59] <tommorris> Hmm. I think the OPML renderer should turn out ordered lists not unordered. Comments?
  395. [19:40:10] <tommorris> I mean, if you've put an outline together in an outliner, it is generally ordered.
  396. [19:40:28] <KevinMarks> yes, there are re-ordering primitives in the editors
  397. [19:40:38] <tantek> tommorris - right, depends on the user model
  398. [19:40:55] <tantek> does the user expect the items in the lists to be ordered, like in the order the created them?
  399. [19:40:57] <KevinMarks> did you see Les's js outline editor?
  400. [19:41:03] <tommorris> Yes, I've seen that.
  401. [19:41:06] <tantek> if so, then yes, ordering is part of the semantic
  402. [19:41:10] <tantek> and thus should be preserved
  403. [19:41:38] <tommorris> Well, in this case, I've got to put something in the code, and so ol seems a better fit than ul.
  404. [19:41:40] <KevinMarks> you know, you could include one of the xoxo decorator scripts that gives disclosure arrows
  405. [19:42:20] <KevinMarks> do you have enough info to output "compact" too?
  406. [19:42:43] <tommorris> Not in this case, no.
  407. [19:42:52] <dglazkov> whatcha think? http://garage.estradacms.com/play/xoxo/test-1.xml
  408. [19:43:09] <tantek> tommorris, doesn't the editor store whether each item is twiddled open or not?
  409. [19:43:13] <tommorris> You could do that with XSLT though - although it would be helluva mess.
  410. [19:43:14] <tantek> to view sub-items?
  411. [19:43:53] <tommorris> tantek: it does, but that's so far at a different point in the codebase, that it'd take a week to recode everything to get it to work.
  412. [19:44:07] <tantek> so that information is not persisted?
  413. [19:44:34] <tommorris> It's in the OPML file itself, and if you want to move it in to XOXO, you could use XSLT to transform the XML.
  414. [19:45:00] <tommorris> Getting to it from the scripting interface would be quite difficult.
  415. [19:45:37] <tantek> it's not something you could easily pass down to the HTML persister?
  416. [19:46:00] <tommorris> Not in the current example, no.
  417. [19:46:04] <tantek> if the editor is reading/writing it from OPML, then presumably it is keeping it in memory
  418. [19:46:09] <tantek> in an internal data structure
  419. [19:46:14] <tantek> and thus *could* pass it down
  420. [19:46:20] <tommorris> Yes, it's probably possible to get to it somehow, but it would be a lot of work.
  421. [19:47:14] <tommorris> It's not something that users of the Editor generally think is going to follow them when they leave the editor though.
  422. [19:47:44] <KevinMarks> well, it's in the OPML, no?
  423. [19:48:38] <tommorris> Oh, actually, there should be a way.
  424. [19:48:49] <tommorris> http://docserver.userland.com/op/getExpansionState
  425. [19:50:02] <KevinMarks> oh god, yes, I remember that
  426. [19:59:27] <mfbot> [[hcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=19434 * Alper * (+199) Additional Applications - stuff about avatars
  427. [20:02:00] <tommorris> huzzah! it works!
  428. [20:02:30] <tommorris> somewhat ugly looking, but otherwise perfectly usable xoxo being emitted from the OPML Editor.
  429. [20:02:36] <tommorris> With support for class="compact"
  430. [20:02:48] <tantek> wow
  431. [20:03:47] <tommorris> i'll clean it up, bundle my modifications up in to the standard format and release them tomorrow. and i'll pester the Frontier-Kernel mailing list in to fixing it in the next open source release.
  432. [20:04:21] <tommorris> Dave Winer may choose to distribute it to his users via the normal update mechanism as well.
  433. [20:05:13] <tommorris> Using the same code, I'll also write a Frontier-standard Rendering package so that you can publish XOXO using another mode in the OPML Editor.
  434. [20:05:28] <tantek> ooh did you see that Open Avatar thing that just got added to the wiki? it looks like it works quite well.
  435. [20:05:42] <tantek> uses people's hCards for their avatars
  436. [20:05:48] <illustir> i just put your url in it to see if you happened to have an hCard on your main page
  437. [20:05:53] <illustir> and you did!
  438. [20:07:39] <tommorris> I've been adding hCards to my del.icio.us links.
  439. [20:08:32] <tommorris> That way, I can tag something, say, "from:kevinmarks" and it adds a little byline under the link. That is an hCard and an XFN relationship, based on some data in a JSON file.
  440. [20:09:06] <tantek> tommorris, that's pretty interesting, how does it work?
  441. [20:09:20] <tommorris> Let me show you
  442. [20:09:31] <tantek> on what page does it publish your delicious links with the hCard and XFN?
  443. [20:09:53] <tommorris> On my blog, on each day page I have the del.icio.us links I posted that day.
  444. [20:10:20] <tommorris> All marked up as xFolk, rel-tag and vote-links. And some of them are marked up with hCard and XFN
  445. [20:10:43] <tantek> whoa
  446. [20:11:04] <tantek> is this a plugin?\
  447. [20:11:07] <tommorris> I can tag something vote-[for|against|abstain] and it gets the relevant rev attribute.
  448. [20:11:21] <tommorris> no, just some php. i will release it soonish.
  449. [20:12:19] <tommorris> It looks all the tags up against an array - http://tommorris.org/blog/functions/delicious.php5?delicious=json
  450. [20:12:55] <tommorris> Actually, this one's easier to read - http://tommorris.org/blog/functions/delicious.php5?delicious=xml
  451. [20:13:14] <tommorris> Whoops - http://tommorris.org/blog/functions/delicious.php5?delicious=php
  452. [20:13:36] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-132-175-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  453. [20:15:22] <tommorris> I had an example page, too, but I've gone and lost it.
  454. [20:16:38] <tommorris> An example: http://tommorris.org/blog/2007/07/23
  455. [20:21:44] <dglazkov> here you go: http://garage.estradacms.com/play/xoxo/
  456. [20:22:02] <dglazkov> KevinMarks, if you have a sec, let me know if I am going in the right direction
  457. [20:27:59] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) Quit ("kthxbai")
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  462. [20:50:46] <KevinMarks> dglazkov: good start; consider having 'desired json' output as well, especially if the json currently generated is not good
  463. [20:51:35] <KevinMarks> serving them as xml is wrong
  464. [20:51:38] <KevinMarks> they are html
  465. [20:53:16] <dglazkov> what about this? http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Simple_well-formed_XML_XOXO
  466. [20:53:30] <KevinMarks> http://kevinmarks.com/cgi-bin/xoxotojson.py?url=http://garage.estradacms.com/play/xoxo/test-1.xml
  467. [20:54:36] <KevinMarks> http://kevinmarks.com/cgi-bin/jsontoxoxo.py?url=http://kevinmarks.com/cgi-bin/xoxotojson.py?url=http://garage.estradacms.com/play/xoxo/test-1.xml
  468. [20:54:42] <KevinMarks> heh
  469. [20:55:13] <KevinMarks> I should really escape the nested url, but as they both just have a '?' in it works
  470. [20:55:22] <tantek> and lose the <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
  471. [20:55:35] <tantek> xml is 1.0 by default, and 1.0 is UTF-8 by default
  472. [20:55:44] <tantek> therefore the preamble is superfluous
  473. [20:55:55] <dglazkov> sure thing -- but XML is ok, right?
  474. [20:56:56] <KevinMarks> i'd give them .html extensions so browsers show them as html
  475. [20:57:17] <dglazkov> should I add html/head&body, then?
  476. [20:57:37] <KevinMarks> hm
  477. [20:57:47] * dglazkov can't make MS IIS serve HTML as application/xml
  478. [20:57:58] <KevinMarks> I don't want it as xml
  479. [20:58:12] <KevinMarks> well, strictly I don't care
  480. [20:58:25] <KevinMarks> HTML fragments are good IMO
  481. [20:58:28] * dglazkov can make .xoxo
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  483. [20:58:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o bewest
  484. [20:59:08] <tantek> dglazkov - note SHOULD serve as text/html
  485. [20:59:19] <KevinMarks> trying the roundtrip wiht my cgi, you see that I lose linebreaks and indents, and the class="vcard"
  486. [20:59:25] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Content-Type
  487. [20:59:44] <dglazkov> ok
  488. [20:59:48] <KevinMarks> you put the rel on the <li> not the <a>, so I'm correctly discarding that
  489. [21:00:04] <tantek> KevinMarks, we need the canonicalization of hCard into JSON for that
  490. [21:00:10] <dglazkov> doh, need to correct that
  491. [21:00:45] <dglazkov> I want to build a ghastly incorrect XOXO, just to torture parsers
  492. [21:00:51] <dglazkov> that will be test-13
  493. [21:00:52] <KevinMarks> I think the idea of HTML and JSON parallel versions for parse tests is very useful
  494. [21:01:22] <KevinMarks> especially in those cases, coming up with an expected json is useful
  495. [21:01:22] <dglazkov> yes, I was going to get to that. But I still don't understand how to represent both property bag and child nodes in json
  496. [21:03:23] <dglazkov> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Simple_well-formed_XML_XOXO
  497. [21:03:37] <dglazkov> crap.. synergy quit working on me.. sorry -- repaste in a sec
  498. [21:04:03] <dglazkov> http://garage.estradacms.com/play/xoxo/
  499. [21:04:08] <dglazkov> better?
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  515. [22:17:32] <KevinMarks> hm, those company affiliations in the XOXO spec are a bit dated
  516. [22:18:21] <tantek> they were accurate as of when we wrote the spec ;)
  517. [22:19:54] <tantek> I wonder what W3C's policy is on noting affiliations that have changed over time on specs.
  518. [22:20:09] <tantek> and if there is no policy, then at least, what is their tradition/custom.
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  522. [23:13:35] <KevinMarks> maybe we should just link to user pagers and put hResume on them
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