IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-08-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:14:40] * tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com) Quit ()
- [00:15:33] <mfbot>
[[xfn-clarifications-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-clarifications-fr&diff=0&oldid=19552 * ChristopheDucamp * (+678)
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Rd9N4t" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [04:18:14] <mfbot>
[[profile-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=profile-examples&diff=0&oldid=19553 * Tantek * (-15255) Reverted edit of Rd9N4t, changed back to last version by Brian
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- [08:00:04] <mfbot>
[[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19554 * DenisDefreyne * (+111) Adding Spangle/Perrier link
- [08:07:30] <mfbot>
[[geo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=19555 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Examples in the wild - moved txioka example to Top of list
- [08:09:57] <mfbot>
[[geo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-fr&diff=0&oldid=19556 * ChristopheDucamp * (+471) exemples dans la jungle - sync'd
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- [08:36:19] <mfbot>
[[twitternanoformats-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/twitternanoformats-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+6052) [fr: translation -> voir aussi picoformats à remettre à jour]
- [08:39:50] <mfbot>
[[twitternanoformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=19557 * ChristopheDucamp * (+121) Proposition de nanoformats pour Twitter (ou Jaiku) -
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- [08:59:32] <mfbot>
[[twitternanoformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=19558 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) 2nanoformats (syntax:param) - typo
- [08:59:58] <mfbot>
[[twitternanoformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=19559 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) 2nanoformats (syntax:param) -
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- [09:05:13] <jibot>
ddfreyne is nothing
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- [10:26:41] <jibot>
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
- [10:45:28] <mfbot>
[[Talk:blog-post-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:blog-post-formats&diff=0&oldid=19560 * ZmfArx * (+15274)
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- [12:25:49] <mfbot>
[[Talk:blog-post-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:blog-post-formats&diff=0&oldid=19561 * ChristopheDucamp * (-15274) [revert spam]
- [12:38:13] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
- [12:38:14] <jibot>
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
- [12:41:23] * Loosive is now known as Mr_Elusive
- [12:41:24] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [12:59:34] <Whiskey_M>
'lo
- [13:21:02] <mfbot>
[[Talk:testimonials]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:testimonials * RtdQx4 * (+15485)
- [13:21:43] <mfbot>
[[Talk:rel-tag-spaces]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:rel-tag-spaces * SooAat * (+15565)
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[[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=19562 * BenBuchanan * (+17) Petition -
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- [13:33:20] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [13:33:20] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [13:33:40] <mfbot>
[[Talk:vcard-suggestions]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:vcard-suggestions * JcgFm9 * (+15280)
- [13:35:57] <mfbot>
[[hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr&diff=0&oldid=19563 * ChristopheDucamp * (+8) typo
- [13:36:17] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:vcard-suggestions": spam
- [13:37:04] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:blog-post-formats": spam
- [13:37:24] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:SooAat" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [13:37:31] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:JcgFm9" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [13:37:37] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:RtdQx4" with an expiry time of inifinite: spam
- [13:37:43] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:ZmfArx" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [13:38:29] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:rel-tag-spaces": spam
- [13:38:35] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:testimonials": spam
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- [14:44:13] <mfbot>
[[Talk:requirements-testing-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:requirements-testing-examples * BndO37 * (+15577)
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- [14:52:19] <mfbot>
[[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19564 * ChristopheDucamp * (+20) Design Patterns et Recettes - typo
- [14:52:31] * tantek (n=tantek@w-mob300-128-62-207-11.public.utexas.edu) has joined #microformats
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- [14:52:31] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [14:54:56] <mfbot>
[[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19565 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) Le Problème -
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- [15:14:05] <jibot>
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
- [15:24:53] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19566 * IMZ * (+689) Drafts - added some short descriptions (taken from the formats' pages)
- [15:26:14] <mfbot>
[[Talk:hresume-feedback]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:hresume-feedback * Wf7Vud * (+15319)
- [15:27:20] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19567 * Tantek * (+300) Analyze existing microformats for opportunities to enhance CSS and propose to W3C
- [15:30:51] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:hresume-feedback": spam
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- [15:32:08] <jibot>
ddfreyne is nothing
- [15:37:52] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Wf7Vud" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [15:52:19] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19568 * Tantek * (-200) edited/simplified summary text down a bit
- [15:54:55] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19569 * Tantek * (+33) in general -
- [16:02:30] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit ()
- [16:16:57] <mfbot>
[[Talk:hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=19570 * Fw7B9j * (+15465)
- [16:20:03] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:hcalendar": spam, not using talk pages
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- [16:20:29] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Fw7B9j" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [16:20:57] <ddfreyne>
the amount of spam on the µf wiki is awful… shouldn't there be some way to prevent most spam?
- [16:22:48] <tantek>
ddfreyne, people keep building smarter spam bots
- [16:24:20] <SignpostMarv>
on the subject of spam, new users need to be encouraged to use "Preview" so discussions in the IRC room don't get interuppted by a deluge of edit notifications
- [16:25:07] <ddfreyne>
tantek: sure, but forgive me if I have the impression that very little is being done to prevent spam
- [16:25:50] <WilleRaab>
Wouldn't be very difficult to add some kind of capatcha? That'd stop most?
- [16:26:13] <SignpostMarv>
captchas suck ass
- [16:26:18] * Cygal (n=cygal@86.76.188.160) has joined #microformats
- [16:26:30] <SignpostMarv>
just out of curiosity, i tried microsofts' audio captchas once
- [16:26:33] <tantek>
WilliRaab, SignpostMarv, please add to: http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#Wiki_improvements
- [16:26:33] <WilleRaab>
And by doing so, they prevent a lot of spam?
- [16:26:38] <SignpostMarv>
couldn't figure out what the fuck was going on
- [16:26:56] <ddfreyne>
I dislike graphical captchas… a few days ago I tried signing up at some site and couldn't get past the captcha check myself!
- [16:26:57] <SignpostMarv>
captchas can be programatically decoded into plain text
- [16:27:07] <SignpostMarv>
captchas annoy legitimate users more than they prevent spammers
- [16:28:25] <mfbot>
[[widget]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/widget * Tantek * (+263) create root page to link to specific pages that worked on a widget microformat
- [16:28:38] <WilleRaab>
I dissagree, it stop most spam, and most users don't seem to mind (as far as I've heard...?).
- [16:28:46] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19571 * SignpostMarv * (+186) Admins - added encouragement of use of the Show Preview button
- [16:28:50] <ddfreyne>
I personally quite like the idea of negative turing tests… which presents the user a text (i.e. "microfarmats rock.") and a command ("fix the typo") and then the server can check whether the result is correct ("microformats rock.")
- [16:28:56] <WilleRaab>
Not getting as annoyed as they'd be by the spamming...
- [16:29:21] <SignpostMarv>
suggestion:
- [16:29:22] <ddfreyne>
has very little accessibility issues, and unless spam bots learn english, they're impossible to get around
- [16:29:41] <WilleRaab>
ddfreyne: hehe, good idea, that.
- [16:29:43] <SignpostMarv>
SpamKarama2 for WordPress can be configured to present the user with a captcha if the system thinks it's a spammer
- [16:30:16] <SignpostMarv>
the default comments form has no such field- it is only added for possible spam comments so "humans" can have a second chance
- [16:30:24] <WilleRaab>
ddfreyne: but that'd take more 'brainactivity' from the user, which I think would bring some over to being annoyed by it.
- [16:30:26] <WilleRaab>
SignpostMarv: nice.
- [16:30:37] <mfbot>
[[widget-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=widget-examples&diff=0&oldid=19572 * Tantek * (+265) needs split into -examples and -formats
- [16:30:45] <SignpostMarv>
if captchas were to be installed on the wiki, I'd push for "only present captcha if an edit is identified as spam, not before"
- [16:30:46] <ddfreyne>
WilleRaab: that's one drawback… spambots have no brains though :)
- [16:32:24] <SignpostMarv>
anywoo
- [16:32:27] <SignpostMarv>
on the topic of captchas
- [16:32:39] <mfbot>
[[widget-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=widget-examples&diff=0&oldid=19573 * Tantek * (+99)
- [16:32:49] <ddfreyne>
I know a few blogs that have been using it for months, and not a single spam comment came through
- [16:33:05] <SignpostMarv>
does it make sense for class="captcha" to be applied to captcha-related elements ?
- [16:34:58] <ddfreyne>
that'd be POSH, so, sure… why not?
- [16:35:02] <SignpostMarv>
class="captcha" on any non-form data field would imply "this is a captcha", wheras class="captcha" on input, textarea, select, etc would imply "this is where you put shit"
- [16:35:21] <SignpostMarv>
for multiple captchas, see the following pastebin
- [16:35:25] <mfbot>
[[widget-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=widget-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19574 * Tantek * (+99) see also
- [16:37:31] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19575 * Tantek * (+43)
- [16:38:10] * Cygal` (n=cygal@86.76.188.160) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [16:40:52] <WilleRaab>
SignpostMarv?
- [16:41:02] <SignpostMarv>
http://pastebin.ca/654618
- [16:41:06] <SignpostMarv>
sorry, was typing :-P
- [16:41:09] <WilleRaab>
ah sry. :)
- [16:41:14] <WilleRaab>
sorry.
- [16:41:17] <SignpostMarv>
haven't been on it in a while,
- [16:41:26] <SignpostMarv>
but Kings of Chaos uses a multi-input captcha method
- [16:41:37] <SignpostMarv>
it displayed an image with a series of numbers
- [16:41:39] <WilleRaab>
kings of chaos?
- [16:41:51] <SignpostMarv>
you had to click a button for which number appeared twice
- [16:41:54] <SignpostMarv>
ah
- [16:42:03] <SignpostMarv>
one of those lame browser based games
- [16:42:42] <WilleRaab>
There's a very simple example I've seen on a blogg: "What's the result if you put 7 and 4 together" and then you simply write the number. NEver seen any spam on that blog... then again - it's in Swedish so maybe it wouldn't work in Englsh... =)
- [16:42:56] <SignpostMarv>
regex
- [16:43:12] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19576 * WilleRaab * (+238) Wiki improvements - < + spam-prevention
- [16:43:41] <WilleRaab>
Another thing'd be to add more admins to the wiki so there's more ppl removing spam....
- [16:43:56] <SignpostMarv>
http://www.kingsofchaos.com/recruit.php?uniqid=33hw2686
- [16:44:11] <SignpostMarv>
good tihng i didn't delete my account :-P
- [16:44:27] <WilleRaab>
=)
- [16:44:33] <SignpostMarv>
looking at this example,
- [16:44:54] <WilleRaab>
Ah, that's a new one.
- [16:44:54] <SignpostMarv>
i think there should be two class values for explictness rather than one implicit value
- [16:46:17] <SignpostMarv>
although I'm a bit mixed. if anyone can find an example of a captcha response that uses links or a flash-based form, then we need an explicit value
- [16:51:17] <tantek>
thanks WilliRaab
- [16:55:13] <mfbot>
[[xoxo-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19577 * TomMorris * (+5) Changed the OPML Manager link description from 'xoxo' to 'unordered list', since it's not actually xoxo.
- [16:55:34] <mfbot>
[[User:SignpostMarv/sandbox/hCaptcha]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:SignpostMarv/sandbox/hCaptcha * SignpostMarv * (+1822) randomly off the top of my head
- [16:55:49] <SignpostMarv>
^does that make sense to peeps ?
- [16:56:44] <ddfreyne>
SignpostMarv: I'm not sure why it's useful
- [16:57:01] <SignpostMarv>
ah
- [16:57:12] * SignpostMarv goes and makes a "usefulness" section
- [16:57:21] <WilleRaab>
=)
- [16:58:36] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [17:02:51] <mfbot>
[[social-network-portability-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19578 * JeanChristopheCapelli * (+1) Les Objectifs -
- [17:03:57] <mfbot>
[[social-network-portability-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19579 * JeanChristopheCapelli * (+4) FAQ Portabilité de Réseau Social -
- [17:04:36] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:09:38] <mfbot>
[[Talk:blog-description-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:blog-description-examples * NapZvw * (+15387)
- [17:09:39] <mfbot>
[[User:SignpostMarv/sandbox/hCaptcha]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:SignpostMarv/sandbox/hCaptcha&diff=0&oldid=19580 * SignpostMarv * (+1504) intended use, assesment of nefarious use
- [17:10:29] <SignpostMarv>
does that answer the question ? :-P
- [17:14:35] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:14:35] <jibot>
tommorris is a UK blogger, lives in East Sussex and studies philosophy in London, but hasn't yet said whether he's a quark or a lepton and blogs at http://blogs.opml.org/tommorris
- [17:15:15] <WilleRaab>
The more I think of it, the better I like the idea ...
- [17:15:51] <WilleRaab>
I'd like some kind of "capatchablock" to mark up the whole section that's containing the capatcha (and nothing but the capatcha).
- [17:15:53] <SignpostMarv>
the idea of having a microformat that would allow the development of firefox extensions for automatically filling in captchas, rendering captchas pointless ? :-P
- [17:16:03] <WilleRaab>
SignpostMarv: =)
- [17:16:07] <WilleRaab>
sshh... ,-)
- [17:16:09] <SignpostMarv>
lol
- [17:16:35] <SignpostMarv>
personally the intent would be to make it more obvious to the end user, and to help disabled or just plain picky users
- [17:16:38] <tommorris>
Wide implementation of OpenID + BotBouncer would solve a lot of the CAPTCHA buttache.
- [17:16:50] <SignpostMarv>
a blind user would have no use for image-based captchas
- [17:17:31] <SignpostMarv>
so there's no point in wasting parsing the image element's alt attribute if there's an audio captcha available
- [17:17:38] <tommorris>
Some standard CAPTCHA links would be useful. <div class="captcha"><a href="[mp3]" rel="alternate" type="[mp3]">Audio version</a></div> etc.
- [17:17:53] <SignpostMarv>
ah
- [17:17:59] <SignpostMarv>
rel="alternate captcha" :-P
- [17:18:12] <SignpostMarv>
alternate = alternate content for document i believe
- [17:18:28] <SignpostMarv>
alternate-captcha would probably be more accurate
- [17:18:37] <SignpostMarv>
or just plain rel="captcha"
- [17:18:43] <tommorris>
Surely alternate is only alterate in /html/head/link?
- [17:18:56] <tommorris>
Ah, the problems of pre-defined class names... ;)
- [17:18:58] * SignpostMarv pokes Tantek for an answer to that question
- [17:19:44] <tantek>
alternate is defined for rel which works on both link and a href
- [17:20:10] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19581 * WilleRaab * (-2) Wiki improvements - << spelling is cool, gotta learn it...
- [17:20:29] <SignpostMarv>
would the use of rel="alternate" be borking the spec when referring to an alternate captcha instead of alternate content for the current document ?
- [17:20:31] <tommorris>
"Designates substitute versions for the document in which the link occurs"
- [17:21:02] <tommorris>
So, no, not appropriate.
- [17:21:45] <SignpostMarv>
rel="captcha" or rel="alternate-captcha" to indicate an alternate captcha link, or would be class="captcha" on a link be sufficient ?
- [17:23:13] <tommorris>
Well, your choice of rel or class is dependent on your interpretation of the HTML4/XHTML1 specifications.
- [17:24:09] <SignpostMarv>
question for "why not to use rel at all": rel can't be used on img, object or span can it ?
- [17:26:14] <tommorris>
As far as I'm aware (and I'm not a walking compendium of the HTML specifications), rel is an attribute only for a and link elements.
- [17:26:19] <SignpostMarv>
giving the option to use rel would mean having both rel and class would be annoying
- [17:26:26] <SignpostMarv>
^on a link
- [17:26:51] <SignpostMarv>
e.g. <a href="http://example.com/foo.png" class="captcha" rel="captcha">captcha</a>
- [17:26:59] <SignpostMarv>
the rel is redundant
- [17:27:13] <tommorris>
When parsing for a 'elemental microformat' style format, I generally parse for class and rel.
- [17:27:14] <SignpostMarv>
(you could argue that the class is redundant)
- [17:28:41] <tommorris>
(In this case, class=nsfw, an unsanctioned microformat, I thought that people could be liable to use class or rel - so it's better to specify class but parse for either)
- [17:29:36] <SignpostMarv>
<link rel="bookmark nsfw" href="http://example.com/nsfw.html" /> in the document http://example.com/nsfw.html would indicate that nsfw.html is NSFW
- [17:29:41] <SignpostMarv>
rel be better :-P
- [17:30:31] <tommorris>
Well, the intended use was on 'a' rather than 'link', since the use case is "I'm linking to a document I think may be not safe for work". You generally do that in the body of the page, not the head.
- [17:31:40] <tommorris>
And you can put a class attribute on a link element.
- [17:31:55] <SignpostMarv>
using link for self-linking would be useful for google safe search
- [17:32:59] <tommorris>
You could use <body class="nsfw"> for that.
- [17:33:23] <SignpostMarv>
hrm
- [17:33:42] <SignpostMarv>
well the usage of both would be useful for marking up inline content i suppose
- [17:33:57] <mfbot>
[[table-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=table-examples&diff=0&oldid=19582 * UjfPwk * (+15235)
- [17:34:10] <tommorris>
The semantics of it are extensible, what with profile URIs.
- [17:34:13] <mfbot>
[[show-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-formats&diff=0&oldid=19583 * LxoK80 * (+15601)
- [17:34:16] <SignpostMarv>
heh
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- [17:44:54] <mfbot>
[[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=19584 * FpaNmu * (+5890)
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- [18:36:48] <mfbot>
[[rel-tag-other-evidence]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-other-evidence&diff=0&oldid=19585 * AndyMabbett * (+118) Further reading
- [18:48:49] <mfbot>
[[widget-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=widget-examples&diff=0&oldid=19586 * Chris Messina * (+5)
- [19:17:26] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19587 * Chris Messina * (+93) Added figure links
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- [19:34:08] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [19:34:48] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=19588 * WebOrganics * (+6079)
- [19:42:34] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:FpaNmu" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:LxoK80" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [19:42:56] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:UjfPwk" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [19:43:22] <mfbot>
[[table-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=table-examples&diff=0&oldid=19589 * Tantek * (-15235) Reverted edit of UjfPwk, changed back to last version by Phae
- [19:43:33] <mfbot>
[[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=19590 * Tantek * (-5890) Reverted edit of FpaNmu, changed back to last version by TobyInk
- [19:43:39] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:NapZvw" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [19:43:50] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:blog-description-examples": spam
- [19:43:56] <mfbot>
[[show-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-formats&diff=0&oldid=19591 * Tantek * (-15601) Reverted edit of LxoK80, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [19:51:27] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19592 * Tantek * (+20)
- [19:52:55] <tantek>
tommorris, SignpostMarv, that use of rel (rel="nsfw") is an abuse of rel and not in accordance with the semantics of that attribute
- [19:53:27] <tantek>
if you want to note that the destination of a link is nsfw, use xfolk to tag the link with nsfw
- [19:54:25] <tantek>
see http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq
- [19:54:43] <tommorris>
tantek: I'm not advocating for or using rel=nsfw. I'm using class=nsfw. See http://tommorris.org/profiles/nsfw
- [19:56:06] <tommorris>
xFolk is not appropriate for human authoring. It's fine if it's being pumped out by a script. But there's no way that I'm writing out an xFolk entry to tag a link.
- [19:56:57] <tantek>
tommorris using class for content (which ostensibly "nsfw" is) is an abuse of class
- [19:57:38] <tantek>
"nsfw" is semantically a tag on a link
- [19:57:51] <tantek>
the best we have right now of representing that semantic is xFolk
- [19:58:23] <tantek>
if you want to add specific issues with authoring xFolk to /wiki/xfolk-issues , that would be appreciated
- [19:58:59] <tantek>
(I'm not debating your assertion that you don't find it appropriate for human authoring, I just want to capture it and move forward.)
- [19:59:04] <tantek>
(and avoid abusing the class attribute in the mean time)
- [19:59:08] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [19:59:26] <tommorris>
I'm still not sure how <a class="nsfw"> is an abuse of @class
- [19:59:59] <tantek>
because nsfw is *content*
- [19:59:59] <tantek>
it's something you would translate/localize
- [20:00:15] <tantek>
class (and rel for that matter) are not things you would translate/localize, like element names
- [20:00:35] <tantek>
it's for type/property names etc.
- [20:01:01] <tantek>
and hiding human content (which the string "nsfw" is) in the class attribute is also an abuse.
- [20:01:18] <tantek>
i need to write up an FAQ point on this
- [20:01:28] <tantek>
because obviously it is a subtle point
- [20:01:40] <tommorris>
Well, it can be displayed by the author in any way they like. I use CSS generated content to add a string after links marked NSFW.
- [20:02:20] <tommorris>
I have also thought about writing a DOM script that would pop up a box saying "Hey, you clicked on a link that the author has marked NSFW. Are you sure you want to continue?"
- [20:02:30] <hober>
ISTM that writing <a href="...">... (NSFW)</a> captures the semantic better than class="nsfw"
- [20:02:31] <tantek>
requiring CSS to show content is a non-starter
- [20:02:50] <tommorris>
Some people may choose to add it as a string to their page.
- [20:02:52] * tantek doesn't know the WCAG point number offhand, but it's in there.
- [20:03:24] <tantek>
we already had this discussion
- [20:03:26] <tommorris>
In fact, most of the uses on my site are del.icio.us links that I tag 'nsfw' (and are then, by extenson, xFolk). But for human authoring, i found it a useful pattern to share.
- [20:03:28] <tantek>
search the lists for rel="xxx"
- [20:03:41] <tantek>
it's an anti-pattern
- [20:03:48] <tantek>
as explained above, abuse of class attribute
- [20:03:51] <tommorris>
I've seen the discussions on uf-discuss, and that is the reason I chose not to propose it.
- [20:04:53] <tommorris>
But it's still something that I find useful. If other people don't want to use it, that's fine.
- [20:06:15] <tantek>
ok, we'll just call it shady POSH for now ;)
- [20:06:33] <tommorris>
That's fine.
- [20:07:06] <tommorris>
I will extend the XSLT so that anyone choosing to use the nsfw profile will have xFolk-with-nsfw-tagged-links marked as NSFW in the RDF version.
- [20:07:15] <hober>
It seems like using class="nsfw" as a hook for DOM scripting that solicits user confirmation before following the href is conflating two separate semantic bits here, anyway
- [20:07:49] <hober>
So separate the confused bits. <a class="protected" href="...">... (NSFW)</a> (or the xFolk equivalent)
- [20:08:00] <hober>
use .protected as your hook for the DOM scripting
- [20:08:15] <hober>
and describing the link as NSFW is content on the page
- [20:08:39] <mfbot>
[[xfolk-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-issues&diff=0&oldid=19593 * TomMorris * (+238)
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- [20:18:16] <mfbot>
[[xfolk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk&diff=0&oldid=19594 * TomMorris * (+124) Many more examples - added self to examples in the wild
- [20:18:16] <mfbot>
[[figure-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/figure-examples * Chris Messina * (+4796)
- [20:21:33] <mfbot>
[[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19595 * DenisDefreyne * (+203)
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- [20:48:51] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
- [20:51:40] <mfbot>
[[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19596 * DenisDefreyne * (+837) Adding To Do section; adding a few more issues
- [21:04:13] * factoryjoe (n=factoryj@adsl-64-174-241-182.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:04:18] <ddfreyne>
factoryjoe: hi
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- [21:05:21] <mfbot>
[[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19597 * DenisDefreyne * (+510) Adding version numbering issue
- [21:05:40] <ddfreyne>
factoryjoe: are you staying now? ;)
- [21:05:45] <factoryjoe>
hi ddfreyne
- [21:06:06] <ddfreyne>
Alright, the downloads-brainstorming page has 3 more issues now
- [21:06:23] <ddfreyne>
one about version numbering (how to mark up version numbers)
- [21:06:32] <ddfreyne>
one about naming (appcast/downloads/blah)
- [21:07:27] <ddfreyne>
and one about a smaller downloads microformat… although i'm not entirely sure how useful this would be
- [21:08:04] <ddfreyne>
will need to investigate using hListing instead of hAtom…
- [21:08:25] <ddfreyne>
and marking up changesets (trac, websvn?) using this as well
- [21:08:29] <factoryjoe>
right
- [21:08:39] <factoryjoe>
and should we bother with beta/major releases?
- [21:08:55] <factoryjoe>
prereleases/betas/point releases?
- [21:09:02] <factoryjoe>
also
- [21:09:15] <factoryjoe>
do we know the xml format of OSX Software Updates?
- [21:09:20] <factoryjoe>
actually
- [21:09:20] <factoryjoe>
we do
- [21:09:34] <ddfreyne>
that's actually something that is being discussed by some Sparkle people… something called "branches" that uses posets etc… let me find a link…
- [21:10:04] <ddfreyne>
http://sparkle.andymatuschak.org/wiki/Documentation/PosetVersioning — but that's just brainstorming, random ideas flying around
- [21:10:27] <ddfreyne>
hm… OS X software updates… I've never seen that format
- [21:11:22] <factoryjoe>
one sec
- [21:11:24] <factoryjoe>
i can get it
- [21:13:16] <ddfreyne>
what the…
- [21:13:42] <ddfreyne>
I ran a packet sniffer, and I'm detecting lots and lots of porn being downloaded by this computer
- [21:14:43] <factoryjoe>
?!
- [21:14:46] <factoryjoe>
are you on a PC?
- [21:15:10] <ddfreyne>
no, on a Mac, which is very weird
- [21:16:10] <factoryjoe>
http://ax.phobos.apple.com.edgesuite.net/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/com.apple.jingle.appserver.client.MZITunesClientCheck/version
- [21:16:13] <factoryjoe>
check that out
- [21:16:20] <factoryjoe>
that's all of the apple software updates
- [21:17:04] <factoryjoe>
oops
- [21:17:06] <factoryjoe>
try this: http://phobos.apple.com/version
- [21:17:25] <ddfreyne>
Ahh, yes, I've seen that before
- [21:17:55] * ddfreyne adds that to examples
- [21:18:45] <ddfreyne>
(I mean formats)
- [21:20:42] <factoryjoe>
i need to restart
- [21:20:45] <factoryjoe>
can you addd that?
- [21:20:53] <ddfreyne>
this porn problem is extremey, extremely awful
- [21:20:56] <ddfreyne>
will do
- [21:21:35] <factoryjoe>
if you figure out the porn issue, let me know
- [21:21:38] <factoryjoe>
that's very very odd
- [21:21:40] <factoryjoe>
brb
- [21:22:04] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@adsl-64-174-241-182.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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- [21:29:28] <mfbot>
[[downloads-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-formats&diff=0&oldid=19598 * DenisDefreyne * (+1031)
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- [21:42:03] <ddfreyne>
wb
- [21:42:25] <factoryjoe>
ok back
- [21:42:53] <ddfreyne>
porn issue is solved; it's not my computer…
- [21:43:01] <ddfreyne>
but let's just ignore that
- [21:43:36] <ddfreyne>
ah, one thing the SU XML file has is a distinction between build numbers and version numbers
- [21:43:53] <ddfreyne>
that's something appcasts should have as well… sparkle uses "version" and "shortVersionNumber"
- [21:44:08] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-194-36.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
- [21:44:31] <ddfreyne>
"shortVersionNumber" contains the actual version number if "version" contains a build number, IIRC
- [21:46:56] * met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) Quit ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
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- [21:48:45] <factoryjoe>
yeah
- [21:48:48] <factoryjoe>
that's good
- [21:48:55] <factoryjoe>
we should look at overlap w/ changesets
- [21:53:31] <ddfreyne>
I'm not sure I like the names "version" and "shortVersionNumber"… revision/build/something? hm.
- [21:54:51] * illustir (n=alper@c51448e84.cable.wanadoo.nl) Quit ()
- [21:57:17] <factoryjoe>
i don't, but we just need to document what's out there
- [21:58:00] <mfbot>
[[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19599 * DenisDefreyne * (+449) Adding "Overlap with Changesets" issue; adding hListing todo item
- [22:02:41] <ddfreyne>
Hm, there's also http://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/index-1.sucatalog
- [22:02:54] <ddfreyne>
the one you linked to is probably iTunes-specific
- [22:05:52] <mfbot>
[[downloads-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-formats&diff=0&oldid=19600 * DenisDefreyne * (+127)
- [22:10:38] <factoryjoe>
yeah you;re right
- [22:10:43] <factoryjoe>
that's the phobos apple server
- [22:10:49] <factoryjoe>
all itunes/ipod/iphone specific
- [22:13:03] <ddfreyne>
something like this is a bit too much for what we need
- [22:13:04] <ddfreyne>
http://swcdn.apple.com/content/downloads/33/03/018-2946/JBXBxSWJvhjdFzWXKM3JTSpn5hyNRpMjzv/AppleKeyboardSoftware.dist
- [22:15:04] * Cygal (n=cygal@86.76.188.160) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [22:16:37] <factoryjoe>
whoa
- [22:16:37] <factoryjoe>
but that's useful
- [22:16:43] <factoryjoe>
what does microsoft do?
- [22:16:49] <factoryjoe>
for msft updates?
- [22:17:20] <ddfreyne>
I'd have to reboot into windows
- [22:19:53] <mfbot>
[[downloads-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-formats&diff=0&oldid=19601 * DenisDefreyne * (-736) Removing Apple SU XML sample and adding link to a typical .dist XML file
- [22:20:24] <ddfreyne>
hm, I can't find anything on MS' update mechanism
- [22:23:29] <ddfreyne>
"function canHasDriver()" — do I detect lolcat speak in the software update XML file?
- [22:23:47] <factoryjoe>
consider it detected
- [22:24:29] <ddfreyne>
awsum thx
- [22:26:03] <factoryjoe>
invisible highfive!
- [22:26:12] * ichigo (n=ichigo@chello062178051055.18.11.vie.surfer.at) has joined #microformats
- [22:26:57] <ddfreyne>
also… what do you think about appcasts with downloads for multiple OSes, architectures, …? I've been trying to find a way to mark up such appcasts, but it's hard
- [22:28:59] <SignpostMarv>
have you considered "going backwards"- e.g. rather than trying to spec a microformat, spec an XML data format- then a microformat from that
- [22:29:15] <ddfreyne>
Sparkle would need a way to filter out the updates it can't use… that would require marking up the OS, architecture, … of each download, which (I think) leads us a bit too far
- [22:29:30] <ddfreyne>
there already is an XML data format—RSS with Sparkle extensions
- [22:29:48] <SignpostMarv>
does that support multi OS/arch ?
- [22:30:23] <ddfreyne>
but brainlessly porting a XML format to a microformat doesn't always seem to work well
- [22:30:41] <SignpostMarv>
things can be fixed in translation
- [22:30:48] <ddfreyne>
it doesn't; there are HTML pages out there that have downloads/release notes for multiple OSes and architectures
- [22:30:50] <SignpostMarv>
microformats are meant to be based off of real-world examples
- [22:31:06] <SignpostMarv>
hCalendar, hCard etc
- [22:31:10] <ddfreyne>
obviously
- [22:31:10] <SignpostMarv>
1:1 translation
- [22:31:27] <SignpostMarv>
if there is a data format that does the job, translate it and see what happens :-3
- [22:31:48] <ddfreyne>
I'd like to forget about multi-* appcasts, unless someone can come up with a great way to mark them up
- [22:32:06] <SignpostMarv>
didn't I do that already ? :-P
- [22:32:14] <ddfreyne>
you did?
- [22:32:41] <ddfreyne>
can't have been that great if I already forgot about it. :P
- [22:32:49] <SignpostMarv>
lol :P
- [22:32:57] <ddfreyne>
but please add it to the wiki… [[downloads-brainstorming]]
- [22:34:19] <factoryjoe>
well hold on
- [22:34:21] <factoryjoe>
um
- [22:34:27] <factoryjoe>
i mean i guess i see the os native thing
- [22:35:05] * SignpostMarv has just thought of something
- [22:35:21] <SignpostMarv>
defining each OS and each architecture as an hCard
- [22:35:36] <SignpostMarv>
and referring to it in the appcast microformat via <object>
- [22:36:03] <ddfreyne>
SignpostMarv: you'll have to mark up the OS type, OS version, architecture, possibly application kind (pro/lite/etc)
- [22:36:27] <ddfreyne>
SignpostMarv: and I think that's bloat
- [22:36:34] <SignpostMarv>
can the details for an OS and architecture be marked up as an hCard ?
- [22:36:40] <SignpostMarv>
yes/no
- [22:37:01] <factoryjoe>
bloat bloat bloat!
- [22:37:04] <factoryjoe>
no hcards!
- [22:37:08] <ddfreyne>
I think having a hCard for Mr. Windows Vista is rather odd
- [22:37:08] <factoryjoe>
hcards are for people!
- [22:37:12] <factoryjoe>
hcards are soylent green!
- [22:37:12] <SignpostMarv>
could they, not should they
- [22:37:19] <factoryjoe>
could they not!
- [22:37:26] <SignpostMarv>
the point i'm making is this:
- [22:37:35] <factoryjoe>
anyway architecture could just be <span class="architecture">
- [22:38:00] <SignpostMarv>
if you use <object> to link to data elsewhere in the document or on the web, then you avoid the problem of the infinite number of class names you could generate when referencing an OS
- [22:38:28] <SignpostMarv>
a "platform" is a combination of OS + architecture, right ?
- [22:39:47] <factoryjoe>
oh man
- [22:39:55] <factoryjoe>
SignpostMarv: have you been around here much?
- [22:39:59] <factoryjoe>
you're talking crazy!
- [22:40:04] <SignpostMarv>
:P
- [22:40:10] <SignpostMarv>
modularisation of microformats
- [22:40:33] <SignpostMarv>
plain text is probably insufficient to describe a platform
- [22:41:18] <ddfreyne>
It's not a question of how it should be done; it's more like a question of whether it really should be done
- [22:41:22] <ddfreyne>
(multi-* appcasts)
- [22:42:20] <factoryjoe>
it's about how it's *already* being done
- [22:42:40] <SignpostMarv>
modularising the declaration of a platform out of the appcast microformat would remove a lot of duplication of data, and allow for more data to be described about a platform
- [22:42:48] <factoryjoe>
actually
- [22:42:49] <factoryjoe>
DUH
- [22:42:54] <factoryjoe>
architecture is just tags!!
- [22:43:00] <factoryjoe>
it's compatible w/ hAtom that way
- [22:43:12] <factoryjoe>
since many OSX updates will be PPC AND Intel
- [22:43:16] <factoryjoe>
those are just tags
- [22:43:18] <SignpostMarv>
what data is associated with architecture
- [22:43:30] <factoryjoe>
what data?
- [22:43:34] <factoryjoe>
well, processor-native code
- [22:44:30] * tantek (n=tantek@m815f36d0.tmodns.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:44:30] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [22:44:30] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [22:44:34] <factoryjoe>
yo tantek
- [22:45:28] <ddfreyne>
marking up a page like http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/mysql/5.0.html would still be a big task, heh
- [22:45:45] <tantek>
wow look who has returned from a long absence ;)
- [22:45:52] <ddfreyne>
That page's a bit extreme, but still :)
- [22:45:55] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [22:45:58] * tantek (n=tantek@m815f36d0.tmodns.net) Quit (Client Quit)
- [22:46:38] <SignpostMarv>
DTDs are hosted by the peeps who developed the spec. why not have a microformat that defines a platform/os/arch hosted by the people who develop it ?
- [22:46:52] * tantek (n=tantek@m815f36d0.tmodns.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:46:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [22:47:03] <factoryjoe>
SignpostMarv: repeat your idea for tantek
- [22:47:13] <SignpostMarv>
<SignpostMarv> DTDs are hosted by the peeps who developed the spec. why not have a microformat that defines a platform/os/arch hosted by the people who develop it ?
- [22:48:11] <tantek>
because that's the wrong point in the analogy
- [22:48:19] <tantek>
do you mean XMDP profiles?
- [22:48:39] <SignpostMarv>
probably
- [22:48:59] <tantek>
and people can, it's just that in practice fewer people pay attention to XMDP profiles than do to DTDs, and those are quite few
- [22:49:18] <tantek>
also, a built in assumption of DTDs is one per document
- [22:49:30] <SignpostMarv>
the idea:
- [22:49:35] <tantek>
whereas XMDP profiles can be multiple per document
- [22:49:40] <SignpostMarv>
microformat for describing a platform embeded into http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/default.mspx
- [22:49:45] <tantek>
so the "why not" question doesn't make much sense
- [22:49:51] <tantek>
ask it as a positive instead
- [22:49:56] <SignpostMarv>
if the software runs in IE, <object class="platform" data="http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/default.mspx" />
- [22:50:28] <tantek>
you want to encourage bindings to proprietary binary formats why again?
- [22:50:43] <factoryjoe>
in stead: <a rel="tag" href="http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie" />
- [22:50:54] <SignpostMarv>
that's an HTML document
- [22:50:56] <tantek>
that's tagging something with "ie"
- [22:50:59] <factoryjoe>
right
- [22:51:04] <SignpostMarv>
not a binary format
- [22:51:09] <factoryjoe>
tantek: we're talking about architectures in download formats
- [22:51:19] <factoryjoe>
like PPC, Intel, Windows, etc
- [22:51:25] <factoryjoe>
i suggested that we use tags
- [22:51:40] <SignpostMarv>
I'm suggesting we don't :-P
- [22:51:42] <tantek>
so you mean runs in Vista
- [22:51:53] <tantek>
there are multiple questions
- [22:52:04] <tantek>
whether you want a taxonomy or folksonomy etc.
- [22:52:16] <tantek>
a registry ala MIME Content-Types like text/html
- [22:52:56] <ddfreyne>
What if an appcast contains two actively developed branches, say 1.0 and 2.0… would you still use tags to distinguish between 1.0 and 2.0?
- [22:53:09] <tantek>
ddfreyne, is "two actively developed branches" the 80/20 ?
- [22:53:13] <tantek>
solve the 80/20 first
- [22:53:22] <tantek>
of real world examples
- [22:53:27] <SignpostMarv>
wordpress 2.0, 2.2; PHP 4,5
- [22:53:29] <tantek>
before asking such theoretical "what ifs"
- [22:53:37] <SignpostMarv>
actively maintained branches
- [22:53:58] <SignpostMarv>
Apache 1.2, 2.0, and whatever it is we're on now
- [22:54:03] <gsnedders>
1.3/2.2
- [22:54:17] <ddfreyne>
yeah
- [22:54:37] <factoryjoe>
let's go back to the original application...
- [22:54:39] <tantek>
"appcast" still sounds like a really poor name
- [22:54:47] <factoryjoe>
delivering HTML-based application updates w/ payloads
- [22:54:50] <tantek>
"apps" are a *fraction* of downloads
- [22:54:55] <tantek>
plugins
- [22:54:58] <factoryjoe>
tantek: we're not finalized on "appcasts"
- [22:55:03] <factoryjoe>
appcasts is used in the wild
- [22:55:04] <SignpostMarv>
hDownload :-P
- [22:55:07] <tantek>
shouldn't even use them in the discussion
- [22:55:08] <factoryjoe>
like podcast
- [22:55:21] <ddfreyne>
tantek: I agree that the name "appcast" isn't great, but "downloads" isn't great either… these are versioned downloads
- [22:55:38] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Naming_considerations
- [22:55:39] <factoryjoe>
the problem is that "downloads" "software" and similar "client-specific" names will be obsoleted
- [22:55:45] <factoryjoe>
you don't always "download"
- [22:55:49] <tantek>
yeah you do
- [22:56:01] <tantek>
the UIs of all these update thingie say "downloading..."
- [22:56:07] <SignpostMarv>
hDistribute ?
- [22:56:16] <tantek>
SignpostMarv, please see prev URL
- [22:56:17] <factoryjoe>
no
- [22:56:20] <factoryjoe>
they say "updating"
- [22:56:21] * ddfreyne kicks SignpostMarv in the shins
- [22:56:32] <tantek>
no, they say "downloading updates..."
- [22:56:34] <SignpostMarv>
hehe, i'm just kidding.
- [22:56:46] * SignpostMarv finds the whole thing of microformats being prefixed with h odd
- [22:57:01] * tantek departs discussion for now.
- [22:57:20] <factoryjoe>
tantek: when you return please provide evidence
- [22:57:32] <factoryjoe>
i have seen "downloading..."
- [22:57:37] <factoryjoe>
but i have seen "updating..." as well
- [22:57:43] <factoryjoe>
http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/tags/updater
- [22:57:47] <SignpostMarv>
updating is installing
- [22:57:53] <factoryjoe>
http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/511599881/
- [22:57:54] <factoryjoe>
no
- [22:57:57] <factoryjoe>
updating is updating
- [22:57:58] <SignpostMarv>
downloading is getting it
- [22:58:07] <factoryjoe>
installing is typically done once
- [22:58:13] <factoryjoe>
once you have installed something, you update it
- [22:58:15] <SignpostMarv>
you install an update
- [22:58:25] <factoryjoe>
http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/470068648/
- [22:58:29] <factoryjoe>
"install..."
- [22:58:31] <factoryjoe>
not "download"
- [22:59:27] <SignpostMarv>
you download data, then you install it
- [22:59:48] <ddfreyne>
I'd say updating is a combination of downloading and installing
- [23:00:09] <SignpostMarv>
an update is installing a newer version of software that you already have
- [23:00:14] <SignpostMarv>
e.g. upgrading
- [23:00:25] <SignpostMarv>
downgrading is installing an older version of software you already have
- [23:00:44] <SignpostMarv>
(or less/more feature complete)
- [23:00:49] <SignpostMarv>
^pro/lite etc
- [23:01:05] <SignpostMarv>
installing is just installing software you don't have
- [23:01:20] <ddfreyne>
so you can't install an update?
- [23:01:42] <SignpostMarv>
are you defining an update as a whole piece of software or a patch ?
- [23:02:13] <ddfreyne>
a whole piece of software
- [23:02:25] <factoryjoe>
i don't think it matters
- [23:02:33] <factoryjoe>
in practice, people send whole apps
- [23:02:35] <factoryjoe>
not patches
- [23:02:35] <SignpostMarv>
that'd be an upgrade, not an update methinx
- [23:02:43] <factoryjoe>
i don't think it matters
- [23:02:50] <ddfreyne>
people call it update all the time
- [23:03:14] <SignpostMarv>
meh. semantics of the english language suck
- [23:04:30] <ddfreyne>
I'd still like having a "download" microformat… something that adds extra data to a rel-enclosure
- [23:04:44] <SignpostMarv>
the point is you can download data in 1 of 4 cases: you don't have any other version of it, you have a previous version, you have a newer version, or you have the same version
- [23:04:47] <ddfreyne>
and that download microformat could also be used by the, eh, "update" microformat
- [23:05:41] <factoryjoe>
we need to document macupdate.com, versiontracker.com and iusethis.com
- [23:05:55] <SignpostMarv>
oldversion.com
- [23:06:38] <ddfreyne>
<div class='header'>DESCRIPTION</div> ew.
- [23:07:15] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [23:07:31] <factoryjoe>
we document
- [23:07:35] <factoryjoe>
we don't necessarily use
- [23:09:02] <ddfreyne>
my admiration for macupdate just vanished
- [23:09:21] <SignpostMarv>
wouldn't it be a good idea to look at the specs for CVS and SVN ?
- [23:10:03] <ddfreyne>
well, that's for changesets… which are similar… so changesets could perhaps be merged into all this
- [23:10:54] <SignpostMarv>
i'm referring more to how it describes the transaction
- [23:11:30] <SignpostMarv>
you wouldn't redownload a file if the version hasn't changed
- [23:12:14] <SignpostMarv>
similarly, you wouldn't redownload an application if the version hasn't changed
- [23:12:35] <ddfreyne>
sparkle handles that
- [23:12:52] <SignpostMarv>
is sparkle an application or a data format
- [23:13:14] <ddfreyne>
sparkle is an application (app updater framework), and it uses RSS appcasts
- [23:13:38] <SignpostMarv>
okay, so drop sparkle out of the discussion and focus more on data formats and data exchange
- [23:13:39] <ddfreyne>
sparkle downloads the appcast RSS feed, extracts application versions, and checks whether any version is newer than the application that is being updated
- [23:14:01] <SignpostMarv>
sparkle is an appcast client, not an appcast
- [23:14:25] <ddfreyne>
sparkle is used in many mac os x apps, so ignoring it is probably not a great idea
- [23:14:25] <factoryjoe>
sparkle is a framework, technically
- [23:14:25] <factoryjoe>
brb
- [23:14:30] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@adsl-64-174-241-182.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) Quit ()
- [23:14:49] <SignpostMarv>
what i mean is, i'm cringing every time you mention sparkle
- [23:15:04] <SignpostMarv>
sparkle is one thing
- [23:15:17] <SignpostMarv>
it does shit
- [23:15:33] <SignpostMarv>
start considering other stuff :-P
- [23:16:29] <SignpostMarv>
there's no point designing a microformat based around one thing
- [23:16:53] <ddfreyne>
Many apps that had their own update scheme have switched to sparkle
- [23:16:55] <SignpostMarv>
</end vent>
- [23:16:57] <ddfreyne>
also, appcast are not sparkle-specific
- [23:17:28] <SignpostMarv>
if everything uses sparkle, then there'd be as much need for an appcast microformat as there is for hAtom
- [23:17:39] <SignpostMarv>
e.g. little or none
- [23:17:41] <ddfreyne>
but sparkle did help shape appcasts, and it's pretty much the most popular app update framework out there
- [23:18:12] <SignpostMarv>
so sparkle influenced appcasts
- [23:18:15] <SignpostMarv>
what influenced sparkle ?
- [23:18:56] <ddfreyne>
first there were appcasts (RSS feeds with application update enclosures), and then there was sparkle
- [23:19:21] <ddfreyne>
which is pretty much the appcast "killer app"
- [23:19:56] <SignpostMarv>
if sparkle does the job perfectly, translate it and leave it at that
- [23:20:48] <ddfreyne>
that's pretty much what I've done so far
- [23:21:06] <ddfreyne>
but there are a few issues; check the downloads-brainstorming page
- [23:21:57] <mfbot>
[[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19602 * DenisDefreyne * (+77)
- [23:22:33] * SignpostMarv is playing WoW right now
- [23:23:31] <SignpostMarv>
is it a case of "we want to do stuff that would basically fork sparkle" ?
- [23:24:02] <ddfreyne>
I don't want to fork sparkle at all
- [23:24:29] <SignpostMarv>
then don't. any situation where you want to add a feature to the microformat that doesn't exist in sparkle, get sparkle to add it to their spec first
- [23:25:25] <SignpostMarv>
if sparkle is the shiznit, then that missing feature won't be missed very much
- [23:26:14] <ddfreyne>
that's pretty much the reason why I don't like multi-OS/arch/etc appcasts
- [23:26:30] <SignpostMarv>
is that feature ever going to be in sparkle ?
- [23:27:09] <ddfreyne>
no idea :)
- [23:27:33] <SignpostMarv>
then just focus on doing hSparkle till it's added
- [23:27:54] <SignpostMarv>
leave the headache up to the peeps who maintain sparkle
- [23:28:37] <SignpostMarv>
everything you keep saying keeps leading back to sparkle
- [23:28:48] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19603 * MvtPzw * (+1318)
- [23:29:29] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19604 * Tantek * (-1318) Reverted edit of MvtPzw, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [23:29:43] <ddfreyne>
it does… but that's because pretty much the only implementation that uses RSS appcasts is Sparkle, and it's also the reason the appcast microformat was started
- [23:29:47] <SignpostMarv>
so please, for the sake of my sanity, just do hSparkle :-P
- [23:29:50] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:MvtPzw" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [23:32:59] <SignpostMarv>
just put the platform info in the feed description and have multiple hAtom feeds in the document for the multi platform junk till sparkle changes
- [23:33:52] <ddfreyne>
Ahh, sparkle 2.0 is going to have something like that… probably worth following the discussion on the sparkle mailinglist and seeing how they are doing it
- [23:34:08] <ddfreyne>
and in the mean time, I think multi-* appcasts aren't worth it
- [23:34:35] <SignpostMarv>
multiple hAtom feeds within a document implies multi-* appcasts :-P
- [23:35:28] <ddfreyne>
no, still a single hatom feed
- [23:35:40] <ddfreyne>
http://sparkle.andymatuschak.org/wiki/Documentation/PosetVersioning
- [23:35:44] <SignpostMarv>
why not one for each * ?
- [23:36:33] <ddfreyne>
that could work too
- [23:36:47] <SignpostMarv>
ther you go, problem solved :-P
- [23:37:13] <ddfreyne>
anyway, I'll just ignore multi-* appcasts for now… it's been discussed for weeks and we're still nowhere
- [23:37:14] <SignpostMarv>
just whack 'em all in <body class="hSparkle"> and you'redone
- [23:38:40] <SignpostMarv>
(or whatever class name you'd be using)
- [23:38:43] <ddfreyne>
you really make everything look trivial
- [23:39:06] <SignpostMarv>
ideas are trivial
- [23:39:11] <SignpostMarv>
implementation might not be :-P
- [23:39:41] <SignpostMarv>
conception & implementation are two different things, an thankfully, conception is much easier to do :-P
- [23:44:06] <ddfreyne>
well, I'm heading off
- [23:44:07] <ddfreyne>
g'night!
- [23:44:11] <SignpostMarv>
toodles
- [23:44:30] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) Quit ("kthxbai")
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