IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-08-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:14:40] * tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com) Quit ()
  2. [00:15:33] <mfbot> [[xfn-clarifications-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-clarifications-fr&diff=0&oldid=19552 * ChristopheDucamp * (+678)
  3. [00:59:38] * mefisto (n=mefisto|@80.232.242.38) Quit ("Leaving")
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  9. [04:15:03] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Rd9N4t" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  10. [04:18:14] <mfbot> [[profile-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=profile-examples&diff=0&oldid=19553 * Tantek * (-15255) Reverted edit of Rd9N4t, changed back to last version by Brian
  11. [04:21:58] * WilleRaab (n=raab@89-253-85-3.customers.ownit.se) Quit ()
  12. [04:22:27] * tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com) has joined #microformats
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  18. [05:33:22] * datnewyen (n=datnewye@c-69-181-107-210.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
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  24. [06:41:50] * danja (n=danja@host196-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
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  29. [07:54:15] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  30. [07:58:00] * shawn (n=shawn@65.19.129.165) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  31. [08:00:04] <mfbot> [[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19554 * DenisDefreyne * (+111) Adding Spangle/Perrier link
  32. [08:07:30] <mfbot> [[geo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=19555 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Examples in the wild - moved txioka example to Top of list
  33. [08:09:57] <mfbot> [[geo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-fr&diff=0&oldid=19556 * ChristopheDucamp * (+471) exemples dans la jungle - sync'd
  34. [08:10:35] * datnewyen_ (n=datnewye@c-69-181-107-210.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ()
  35. [08:12:00] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106001346fa7d6d.wp.shawcable.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  36. [08:12:04] * Loosive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106001346fa7d6d.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  37. [08:36:19] <mfbot> [[twitternanoformats-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/twitternanoformats-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+6052) [fr: translation -> voir aussi picoformats à remettre à jour]
  38. [08:39:50] <mfbot> [[twitternanoformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=19557 * ChristopheDucamp * (+121) Proposition de nanoformats pour Twitter (ou Jaiku) -
  39. [08:49:03] * jibot (i=andy@83.145.232.84) has joined #microformats
  40. [08:59:32] <mfbot> [[twitternanoformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=19558 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) 2nanoformats (syntax:param) - typo
  41. [08:59:58] <mfbot> [[twitternanoformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=19559 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) 2nanoformats (syntax:param) -
  42. [09:05:13] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@d54C57894.access.telenet.be) has joined #microformats
  43. [09:05:13] <jibot> ddfreyne is nothing
  44. [09:36:17] * tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com) Quit ()
  45. [09:59:26] * shawn (n=shawn@65.19.129.165) has joined #microformats
  46. [10:26:41] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  47. [10:26:41] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  48. [10:45:28] <mfbot> [[Talk:blog-post-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:blog-post-formats&diff=0&oldid=19560 * ZmfArx * (+15274)
  49. [11:30:18] * mefisto (n=mefisto|@80.232.242.38) has joined #microformats
  50. [11:38:34] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  51. [12:25:49] <mfbot> [[Talk:blog-post-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:blog-post-formats&diff=0&oldid=19561 * ChristopheDucamp * (-15274) [revert spam]
  52. [12:38:13] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  53. [12:38:14] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  54. [12:41:23] * Loosive is now known as Mr_Elusive
  55. [12:41:24] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  56. [12:56:56] * Cygal` (n=cygal@77.200.248.17) has joined #microformats
  57. [12:57:02] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  58. [12:59:25] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
  59. [12:59:34] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
  60. [13:21:02] <mfbot> [[Talk:testimonials]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:testimonials * RtdQx4 * (+15485)
  61. [13:21:43] <mfbot> [[Talk:rel-tag-spaces]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:rel-tag-spaces * SooAat * (+15565)
  62. [13:21:49] * WilleRaab (i=WilleRaa@89-253-85-3.customers.ownit.se) has joined #microformats
  63. [13:22:30] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=19562 * BenBuchanan * (+17) Petition -
  64. [13:24:10] * SignpostMarv (n=Signpost@82-71-31-169.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  65. [13:25:56] * met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) has joined #microformats
  66. [13:33:20] * tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  67. [13:33:20] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  68. [13:33:20] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  69. [13:33:40] <mfbot> [[Talk:vcard-suggestions]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:vcard-suggestions * JcgFm9 * (+15280)
  70. [13:35:57] <mfbot> [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr&diff=0&oldid=19563 * ChristopheDucamp * (+8) typo
  71. [13:36:17] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:vcard-suggestions": spam
  72. [13:37:04] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:blog-post-formats": spam
  73. [13:37:24] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:SooAat" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  74. [13:37:31] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:JcgFm9" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  75. [13:37:37] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:RtdQx4" with an expiry time of inifinite: spam
  76. [13:37:43] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:ZmfArx" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  77. [13:38:29] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:rel-tag-spaces": spam
  78. [13:38:35] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:testimonials": spam
  79. [13:44:17] * SignpostMarv (n=Signpost@82-71-31-169.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) Quit ("Leaving")
  80. [13:44:54] * SignpostMarv (n=Signpost@82-71-31-169.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  81. [13:58:26] * tantek (n=tantek@rrcs-67-78-64-62.sw.biz.rr.com) Quit ()
  82. [14:03:29] * danja (n=danja@host196-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  83. [14:05:42] * danja (n=danja@host196-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  84. [14:44:13] <mfbot> [[Talk:requirements-testing-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:requirements-testing-examples * BndO37 * (+15577)
  85. [14:46:37] * shawn (n=shawn@65.19.129.165) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  86. [14:52:19] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19564 * ChristopheDucamp * (+20) Design Patterns et Recettes - typo
  87. [14:52:31] * tantek (n=tantek@w-mob300-128-62-207-11.public.utexas.edu) has joined #microformats
  88. [14:52:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  89. [14:52:31] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  90. [14:54:56] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19565 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) Le Problème -
  91. [15:05:27] * Cygal` (n=cygal@77.200.248.17) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  92. [15:13:32] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) Quit ("kthxbai")
  93. [15:14:05] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  94. [15:14:05] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  95. [15:24:53] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19566 * IMZ * (+689) Drafts - added some short descriptions (taken from the formats' pages)
  96. [15:26:14] <mfbot> [[Talk:hresume-feedback]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:hresume-feedback * Wf7Vud * (+15319)
  97. [15:27:20] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19567 * Tantek * (+300) Analyze existing microformats for opportunities to enhance CSS and propose to W3C
  98. [15:30:51] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:hresume-feedback": spam
  99. [15:32:08] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@d54C57894.access.telenet.be) has joined #microformats
  100. [15:32:08] <jibot> ddfreyne is nothing
  101. [15:37:52] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Wf7Vud" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  102. [15:52:19] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19568 * Tantek * (-200) edited/simplified summary text down a bit
  103. [15:54:55] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19569 * Tantek * (+33) in general -
  104. [16:02:30] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit ()
  105. [16:16:57] <mfbot> [[Talk:hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=19570 * Fw7B9j * (+15465)
  106. [16:20:03] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:hcalendar": spam, not using talk pages
  107. [16:20:20] * Cygal` (n=cygal@86.76.188.160) has joined #microformats
  108. [16:20:29] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Fw7B9j" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  109. [16:20:57] <ddfreyne> the amount of spam on the µf wiki is awful… shouldn't there be some way to prevent most spam?
  110. [16:22:48] <tantek> ddfreyne, people keep building smarter spam bots
  111. [16:24:20] <SignpostMarv> on the subject of spam, new users need to be encouraged to use "Preview" so discussions in the IRC room don't get interuppted by a deluge of edit notifications
  112. [16:25:07] <ddfreyne> tantek: sure, but forgive me if I have the impression that very little is being done to prevent spam
  113. [16:25:50] <WilleRaab> Wouldn't be very difficult to add some kind of capatcha? That'd stop most?
  114. [16:26:13] <SignpostMarv> captchas suck ass
  115. [16:26:18] * Cygal (n=cygal@86.76.188.160) has joined #microformats
  116. [16:26:30] <SignpostMarv> just out of curiosity, i tried microsofts' audio captchas once
  117. [16:26:33] <tantek> WilliRaab, SignpostMarv, please add to: http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#Wiki_improvements
  118. [16:26:33] <WilleRaab> And by doing so, they prevent a lot of spam?
  119. [16:26:38] <SignpostMarv> couldn't figure out what the fuck was going on
  120. [16:26:56] <ddfreyne> I dislike graphical captchas… a few days ago I tried signing up at some site and couldn't get past the captcha check myself!
  121. [16:26:57] <SignpostMarv> captchas can be programatically decoded into plain text
  122. [16:27:07] <SignpostMarv> captchas annoy legitimate users more than they prevent spammers
  123. [16:28:25] <mfbot> [[widget]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/widget * Tantek * (+263) create root page to link to specific pages that worked on a widget microformat
  124. [16:28:38] <WilleRaab> I dissagree, it stop most spam, and most users don't seem to mind (as far as I've heard...?).
  125. [16:28:46] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19571 * SignpostMarv * (+186) Admins - added encouragement of use of the Show Preview button
  126. [16:28:50] <ddfreyne> I personally quite like the idea of negative turing tests… which presents the user a text (i.e. "microfarmats rock.") and a command ("fix the typo") and then the server can check whether the result is correct ("microformats rock.")
  127. [16:28:56] <WilleRaab> Not getting as annoyed as they'd be by the spamming...
  128. [16:29:21] <SignpostMarv> suggestion:
  129. [16:29:22] <ddfreyne> has very little accessibility issues, and unless spam bots learn english, they're impossible to get around
  130. [16:29:41] <WilleRaab> ddfreyne: hehe, good idea, that.
  131. [16:29:43] <SignpostMarv> SpamKarama2 for WordPress can be configured to present the user with a captcha if the system thinks it's a spammer
  132. [16:30:16] <SignpostMarv> the default comments form has no such field- it is only added for possible spam comments so "humans" can have a second chance
  133. [16:30:24] <WilleRaab> ddfreyne: but that'd take more 'brainactivity' from the user, which I think would bring some over to being annoyed by it.
  134. [16:30:26] <WilleRaab> SignpostMarv: nice.
  135. [16:30:37] <mfbot> [[widget-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=widget-examples&diff=0&oldid=19572 * Tantek * (+265) needs split into -examples and -formats
  136. [16:30:45] <SignpostMarv> if captchas were to be installed on the wiki, I'd push for "only present captcha if an edit is identified as spam, not before"
  137. [16:30:46] <ddfreyne> WilleRaab: that's one drawback… spambots have no brains though :)
  138. [16:32:24] <SignpostMarv> anywoo
  139. [16:32:27] <SignpostMarv> on the topic of captchas
  140. [16:32:39] <mfbot> [[widget-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=widget-examples&diff=0&oldid=19573 * Tantek * (+99)
  141. [16:32:49] <ddfreyne> I know a few blogs that have been using it for months, and not a single spam comment came through
  142. [16:33:05] <SignpostMarv> does it make sense for class="captcha" to be applied to captcha-related elements ?
  143. [16:34:58] <ddfreyne> that'd be POSH, so, sure… why not?
  144. [16:35:02] <SignpostMarv> class="captcha" on any non-form data field would imply "this is a captcha", wheras class="captcha" on input, textarea, select, etc would imply "this is where you put shit"
  145. [16:35:21] <SignpostMarv> for multiple captchas, see the following pastebin
  146. [16:35:25] <mfbot> [[widget-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=widget-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19574 * Tantek * (+99) see also
  147. [16:37:31] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19575 * Tantek * (+43)
  148. [16:38:10] * Cygal` (n=cygal@86.76.188.160) Quit (Connection timed out)
  149. [16:40:52] <WilleRaab> SignpostMarv?
  150. [16:41:02] <SignpostMarv> http://pastebin.ca/654618
  151. [16:41:06] <SignpostMarv> sorry, was typing :-P
  152. [16:41:09] <WilleRaab> ah sry. :)
  153. [16:41:14] <WilleRaab> sorry.
  154. [16:41:17] <SignpostMarv> haven't been on it in a while,
  155. [16:41:26] <SignpostMarv> but Kings of Chaos uses a multi-input captcha method
  156. [16:41:37] <SignpostMarv> it displayed an image with a series of numbers
  157. [16:41:39] <WilleRaab> kings of chaos?
  158. [16:41:51] <SignpostMarv> you had to click a button for which number appeared twice
  159. [16:41:54] <SignpostMarv> ah
  160. [16:42:03] <SignpostMarv> one of those lame browser based games
  161. [16:42:42] <WilleRaab> There's a very simple example I've seen on a blogg: "What's the result if you put 7 and 4 together" and then you simply write the number. NEver seen any spam on that blog... then again - it's in Swedish so maybe it wouldn't work in Englsh... =)
  162. [16:42:56] <SignpostMarv> regex
  163. [16:43:12] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19576 * WilleRaab * (+238) Wiki improvements - < + spam-prevention
  164. [16:43:41] <WilleRaab> Another thing'd be to add more admins to the wiki so there's more ppl removing spam....
  165. [16:43:56] <SignpostMarv> http://www.kingsofchaos.com/recruit.php?uniqid=33hw2686
  166. [16:44:11] <SignpostMarv> good tihng i didn't delete my account :-P
  167. [16:44:27] <WilleRaab> =)
  168. [16:44:33] <SignpostMarv> looking at this example,
  169. [16:44:54] <WilleRaab> Ah, that's a new one.
  170. [16:44:54] <SignpostMarv> i think there should be two class values for explictness rather than one implicit value
  171. [16:46:17] <SignpostMarv> although I'm a bit mixed. if anyone can find an example of a captcha response that uses links or a flash-based form, then we need an explicit value
  172. [16:51:17] <tantek> thanks WilliRaab
  173. [16:55:13] <mfbot> [[xoxo-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19577 * TomMorris * (+5) Changed the OPML Manager link description from 'xoxo' to 'unordered list', since it's not actually xoxo.
  174. [16:55:34] <mfbot> [[User:SignpostMarv/sandbox/hCaptcha]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:SignpostMarv/sandbox/hCaptcha * SignpostMarv * (+1822) randomly off the top of my head
  175. [16:55:49] <SignpostMarv> ^does that make sense to peeps ?
  176. [16:56:44] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: I'm not sure why it's useful
  177. [16:57:01] <SignpostMarv> ah
  178. [16:57:12] * SignpostMarv goes and makes a "usefulness" section
  179. [16:57:21] <WilleRaab> =)
  180. [16:58:36] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  181. [17:02:51] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19578 * JeanChristopheCapelli * (+1) Les Objectifs -
  182. [17:03:57] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19579 * JeanChristopheCapelli * (+4) FAQ Portabilité de Réseau Social -
  183. [17:04:36] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  184. [17:09:38] <mfbot> [[Talk:blog-description-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:blog-description-examples * NapZvw * (+15387)
  185. [17:09:39] <mfbot> [[User:SignpostMarv/sandbox/hCaptcha]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:SignpostMarv/sandbox/hCaptcha&diff=0&oldid=19580 * SignpostMarv * (+1504) intended use, assesment of nefarious use
  186. [17:10:29] <SignpostMarv> does that answer the question ? :-P
  187. [17:14:35] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
  188. [17:14:35] <jibot> tommorris is a UK blogger, lives in East Sussex and studies philosophy in London, but hasn't yet said whether he's a quark or a lepton and blogs at http://blogs.opml.org/tommorris
  189. [17:15:15] <WilleRaab> The more I think of it, the better I like the idea ...
  190. [17:15:51] <WilleRaab> I'd like some kind of "capatchablock" to mark up the whole section that's containing the capatcha (and nothing but the capatcha).
  191. [17:15:53] <SignpostMarv> the idea of having a microformat that would allow the development of firefox extensions for automatically filling in captchas, rendering captchas pointless ? :-P
  192. [17:16:03] <WilleRaab> SignpostMarv: =)
  193. [17:16:07] <WilleRaab> sshh... ,-)
  194. [17:16:09] <SignpostMarv> lol
  195. [17:16:35] <SignpostMarv> personally the intent would be to make it more obvious to the end user, and to help disabled or just plain picky users
  196. [17:16:38] <tommorris> Wide implementation of OpenID + BotBouncer would solve a lot of the CAPTCHA buttache.
  197. [17:16:50] <SignpostMarv> a blind user would have no use for image-based captchas
  198. [17:17:31] <SignpostMarv> so there's no point in wasting parsing the image element's alt attribute if there's an audio captcha available
  199. [17:17:38] <tommorris> Some standard CAPTCHA links would be useful. <div class="captcha"><a href="[mp3]" rel="alternate" type="[mp3]">Audio version</a></div> etc.
  200. [17:17:53] <SignpostMarv> ah
  201. [17:17:59] <SignpostMarv> rel="alternate captcha" :-P
  202. [17:18:12] <SignpostMarv> alternate = alternate content for document i believe
  203. [17:18:28] <SignpostMarv> alternate-captcha would probably be more accurate
  204. [17:18:37] <SignpostMarv> or just plain rel="captcha"
  205. [17:18:43] <tommorris> Surely alternate is only alterate in /html/head/link?
  206. [17:18:56] <tommorris> Ah, the problems of pre-defined class names... ;)
  207. [17:18:58] * SignpostMarv pokes Tantek for an answer to that question
  208. [17:19:44] <tantek> alternate is defined for rel which works on both link and a href
  209. [17:20:10] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19581 * WilleRaab * (-2) Wiki improvements - << spelling is cool, gotta learn it...
  210. [17:20:29] <SignpostMarv> would the use of rel="alternate" be borking the spec when referring to an alternate captcha instead of alternate content for the current document ?
  211. [17:20:31] <tommorris> "Designates substitute versions for the document in which the link occurs"
  212. [17:21:02] <tommorris> So, no, not appropriate.
  213. [17:21:45] <SignpostMarv> rel="captcha" or rel="alternate-captcha" to indicate an alternate captcha link, or would be class="captcha" on a link be sufficient ?
  214. [17:23:13] <tommorris> Well, your choice of rel or class is dependent on your interpretation of the HTML4/XHTML1 specifications.
  215. [17:24:09] <SignpostMarv> question for "why not to use rel at all": rel can't be used on img, object or span can it ?
  216. [17:26:14] <tommorris> As far as I'm aware (and I'm not a walking compendium of the HTML specifications), rel is an attribute only for a and link elements.
  217. [17:26:19] <SignpostMarv> giving the option to use rel would mean having both rel and class would be annoying
  218. [17:26:26] <SignpostMarv> ^on a link
  219. [17:26:51] <SignpostMarv> e.g. <a href="http://example.com/foo.png" class="captcha" rel="captcha">captcha</a>
  220. [17:26:59] <SignpostMarv> the rel is redundant
  221. [17:27:13] <tommorris> When parsing for a 'elemental microformat' style format, I generally parse for class and rel.
  222. [17:27:14] <SignpostMarv> (you could argue that the class is redundant)
  223. [17:28:41] <tommorris> (In this case, class=nsfw, an unsanctioned microformat, I thought that people could be liable to use class or rel - so it's better to specify class but parse for either)
  224. [17:29:36] <SignpostMarv> <link rel="bookmark nsfw" href="http://example.com/nsfw.html" /> in the document http://example.com/nsfw.html would indicate that nsfw.html is NSFW
  225. [17:29:41] <SignpostMarv> rel be better :-P
  226. [17:30:31] <tommorris> Well, the intended use was on 'a' rather than 'link', since the use case is "I'm linking to a document I think may be not safe for work". You generally do that in the body of the page, not the head.
  227. [17:31:40] <tommorris> And you can put a class attribute on a link element.
  228. [17:31:55] <SignpostMarv> using link for self-linking would be useful for google safe search
  229. [17:32:59] <tommorris> You could use <body class="nsfw"> for that.
  230. [17:33:23] <SignpostMarv> hrm
  231. [17:33:42] <SignpostMarv> well the usage of both would be useful for marking up inline content i suppose
  232. [17:33:57] <mfbot> [[table-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=table-examples&diff=0&oldid=19582 * UjfPwk * (+15235)
  233. [17:34:10] <tommorris> The semantics of it are extensible, what with profile URIs.
  234. [17:34:13] <mfbot> [[show-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-formats&diff=0&oldid=19583 * LxoK80 * (+15601)
  235. [17:34:16] <SignpostMarv> heh
  236. [17:37:30] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) Quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Leading Edge IRC")
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  238. [17:44:54] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=19584 * FpaNmu * (+5890)
  239. [17:49:55] * tantek (n=tantek@w-mob300-128-62-207-11.public.utexas.edu) Quit ()
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  243. [18:36:48] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-other-evidence]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-other-evidence&diff=0&oldid=19585 * AndyMabbett * (+118) Further reading
  244. [18:48:49] <mfbot> [[widget-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=widget-examples&diff=0&oldid=19586 * Chris Messina * (+5)
  245. [19:17:26] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19587 * Chris Messina * (+93) Added figure links
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  249. [19:34:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  250. [19:34:08] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  251. [19:34:48] <mfbot> [[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=19588 * WebOrganics * (+6079)
  252. [19:42:34] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:FpaNmu" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  253. [19:42:40] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:LxoK80" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  254. [19:42:56] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:UjfPwk" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  255. [19:43:22] <mfbot> [[table-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=table-examples&diff=0&oldid=19589 * Tantek * (-15235) Reverted edit of UjfPwk, changed back to last version by Phae
  256. [19:43:33] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=19590 * Tantek * (-5890) Reverted edit of FpaNmu, changed back to last version by TobyInk
  257. [19:43:39] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:NapZvw" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  258. [19:43:50] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:blog-description-examples": spam
  259. [19:43:56] <mfbot> [[show-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-formats&diff=0&oldid=19591 * Tantek * (-15601) Reverted edit of LxoK80, changed back to last version by Tantek
  260. [19:51:27] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19592 * Tantek * (+20)
  261. [19:52:55] <tantek> tommorris, SignpostMarv, that use of rel (rel="nsfw") is an abuse of rel and not in accordance with the semantics of that attribute
  262. [19:53:27] <tantek> if you want to note that the destination of a link is nsfw, use xfolk to tag the link with nsfw
  263. [19:54:25] <tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq
  264. [19:54:43] <tommorris> tantek: I'm not advocating for or using rel=nsfw. I'm using class=nsfw. See http://tommorris.org/profiles/nsfw
  265. [19:56:06] <tommorris> xFolk is not appropriate for human authoring. It's fine if it's being pumped out by a script. But there's no way that I'm writing out an xFolk entry to tag a link.
  266. [19:56:57] <tantek> tommorris using class for content (which ostensibly "nsfw" is) is an abuse of class
  267. [19:57:38] <tantek> "nsfw" is semantically a tag on a link
  268. [19:57:51] <tantek> the best we have right now of representing that semantic is xFolk
  269. [19:58:23] <tantek> if you want to add specific issues with authoring xFolk to /wiki/xfolk-issues , that would be appreciated
  270. [19:58:59] <tantek> (I'm not debating your assertion that you don't find it appropriate for human authoring, I just want to capture it and move forward.)
  271. [19:59:04] <tantek> (and avoid abusing the class attribute in the mean time)
  272. [19:59:08] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  273. [19:59:26] <tommorris> I'm still not sure how <a class="nsfw"> is an abuse of @class
  274. [19:59:59] <tantek> because nsfw is *content*
  275. [19:59:59] <tantek> it's something you would translate/localize
  276. [20:00:15] <tantek> class (and rel for that matter) are not things you would translate/localize, like element names
  277. [20:00:35] <tantek> it's for type/property names etc.
  278. [20:01:01] <tantek> and hiding human content (which the string "nsfw" is) in the class attribute is also an abuse.
  279. [20:01:18] <tantek> i need to write up an FAQ point on this
  280. [20:01:28] <tantek> because obviously it is a subtle point
  281. [20:01:40] <tommorris> Well, it can be displayed by the author in any way they like. I use CSS generated content to add a string after links marked NSFW.
  282. [20:02:20] <tommorris> I have also thought about writing a DOM script that would pop up a box saying "Hey, you clicked on a link that the author has marked NSFW. Are you sure you want to continue?"
  283. [20:02:30] <hober> ISTM that writing <a href="...">... (NSFW)</a> captures the semantic better than class="nsfw"
  284. [20:02:31] <tantek> requiring CSS to show content is a non-starter
  285. [20:02:50] <tommorris> Some people may choose to add it as a string to their page.
  286. [20:02:52] * tantek doesn't know the WCAG point number offhand, but it's in there.
  287. [20:03:24] <tantek> we already had this discussion
  288. [20:03:26] <tommorris> In fact, most of the uses on my site are del.icio.us links that I tag 'nsfw' (and are then, by extenson, xFolk). But for human authoring, i found it a useful pattern to share.
  289. [20:03:28] <tantek> search the lists for rel="xxx"
  290. [20:03:41] <tantek> it's an anti-pattern
  291. [20:03:48] <tantek> as explained above, abuse of class attribute
  292. [20:03:51] <tommorris> I've seen the discussions on uf-discuss, and that is the reason I chose not to propose it.
  293. [20:04:53] <tommorris> But it's still something that I find useful. If other people don't want to use it, that's fine.
  294. [20:06:15] <tantek> ok, we'll just call it shady POSH for now ;)
  295. [20:06:33] <tommorris> That's fine.
  296. [20:07:06] <tommorris> I will extend the XSLT so that anyone choosing to use the nsfw profile will have xFolk-with-nsfw-tagged-links marked as NSFW in the RDF version.
  297. [20:07:15] <hober> It seems like using class="nsfw" as a hook for DOM scripting that solicits user confirmation before following the href is conflating two separate semantic bits here, anyway
  298. [20:07:49] <hober> So separate the confused bits. <a class="protected" href="...">... (NSFW)</a> (or the xFolk equivalent)
  299. [20:08:00] <hober> use .protected as your hook for the DOM scripting
  300. [20:08:15] <hober> and describing the link as NSFW is content on the page
  301. [20:08:39] <mfbot> [[xfolk-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-issues&diff=0&oldid=19593 * TomMorris * (+238)
  302. [20:14:33] * daggi (n=chrisada@82-45-160-216.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  303. [20:18:16] <mfbot> [[xfolk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk&diff=0&oldid=19594 * TomMorris * (+124) Many more examples - added self to examples in the wild
  304. [20:18:16] <mfbot> [[figure-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/figure-examples * Chris Messina * (+4796)
  305. [20:21:33] <mfbot> [[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19595 * DenisDefreyne * (+203)
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  309. [20:48:51] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  310. [20:48:51] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  311. [20:51:40] <mfbot> [[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19596 * DenisDefreyne * (+837) Adding To Do section; adding a few more issues
  312. [21:04:13] * factoryjoe (n=factoryj@adsl-64-174-241-182.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  313. [21:04:18] <ddfreyne> factoryjoe: hi
  314. [21:04:21] * factoryjoe (n=factoryj@adsl-64-174-241-182.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  315. [21:04:53] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@adsl-64-174-241-182.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  316. [21:05:21] <mfbot> [[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19597 * DenisDefreyne * (+510) Adding version numbering issue
  317. [21:05:40] <ddfreyne> factoryjoe: are you staying now? ;)
  318. [21:05:45] <factoryjoe> hi ddfreyne
  319. [21:06:06] <ddfreyne> Alright, the downloads-brainstorming page has 3 more issues now
  320. [21:06:23] <ddfreyne> one about version numbering (how to mark up version numbers)
  321. [21:06:32] <ddfreyne> one about naming (appcast/downloads/blah)
  322. [21:07:27] <ddfreyne> and one about a smaller downloads microformat… although i'm not entirely sure how useful this would be
  323. [21:08:04] <ddfreyne> will need to investigate using hListing instead of hAtom…
  324. [21:08:25] <ddfreyne> and marking up changesets (trac, websvn?) using this as well
  325. [21:08:29] <factoryjoe> right
  326. [21:08:39] <factoryjoe> and should we bother with beta/major releases?
  327. [21:08:55] <factoryjoe> prereleases/betas/point releases?
  328. [21:09:02] <factoryjoe> also
  329. [21:09:15] <factoryjoe> do we know the xml format of OSX Software Updates?
  330. [21:09:20] <factoryjoe> actually
  331. [21:09:20] <factoryjoe> we do
  332. [21:09:34] <ddfreyne> that's actually something that is being discussed by some Sparkle people… something called "branches" that uses posets etc… let me find a link… 
  333. [21:10:04] <ddfreyne> http://sparkle.andymatuschak.org/wiki/Documentation/PosetVersioning — but that's just brainstorming, random ideas flying around
  334. [21:10:27] <ddfreyne> hm… OS X software updates…  I've never seen that format
  335. [21:11:22] <factoryjoe> one sec
  336. [21:11:24] <factoryjoe> i can get it
  337. [21:13:16] <ddfreyne> what the…
  338. [21:13:42] <ddfreyne> I ran a packet sniffer, and I'm detecting lots and lots of porn being downloaded by this computer
  339. [21:14:43] <factoryjoe> ?!
  340. [21:14:46] <factoryjoe> are you on a PC?
  341. [21:15:10] <ddfreyne> no, on a Mac, which is very weird
  342. [21:16:10] <factoryjoe> http://ax.phobos.apple.com.edgesuite.net/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/com.apple.jingle.appserver.client.MZITunesClientCheck/version
  343. [21:16:13] <factoryjoe> check that out
  344. [21:16:20] <factoryjoe> that's all of the apple software updates
  345. [21:17:04] <factoryjoe> oops
  346. [21:17:06] <factoryjoe> try this: http://phobos.apple.com/version
  347. [21:17:25] <ddfreyne> Ahh, yes, I've seen that before
  348. [21:17:55] * ddfreyne adds that to examples
  349. [21:18:45] <ddfreyne> (I mean formats)
  350. [21:20:42] <factoryjoe> i need to restart
  351. [21:20:45] <factoryjoe> can you addd that?
  352. [21:20:53] <ddfreyne> this porn problem is extremey, extremely awful
  353. [21:20:56] <ddfreyne> will do
  354. [21:21:35] <factoryjoe> if you figure out the porn issue, let me know
  355. [21:21:38] <factoryjoe> that's very very odd
  356. [21:21:40] <factoryjoe> brb
  357. [21:22:04] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@adsl-64-174-241-182.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  358. [21:26:44] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
  359. [21:29:28] <mfbot> [[downloads-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-formats&diff=0&oldid=19598 * DenisDefreyne * (+1031)
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  364. [21:42:03] <ddfreyne> wb
  365. [21:42:25] <factoryjoe> ok back
  366. [21:42:53] <ddfreyne> porn issue is solved; it's not my computer…
  367. [21:43:01] <ddfreyne> but let's just ignore that
  368. [21:43:36] <ddfreyne> ah, one thing the SU XML file has is a distinction between build numbers and version numbers
  369. [21:43:53] <ddfreyne> that's something appcasts should have as well… sparkle uses "version" and "shortVersionNumber"
  370. [21:44:08] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-194-36.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  371. [21:44:31] <ddfreyne> "shortVersionNumber" contains the actual version number if "version" contains a build number, IIRC
  372. [21:46:56] * met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) Quit ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
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  374. [21:48:38] * nmnbkr (i=Boinc-Us@58.65.197.120) Quit ()
  375. [21:48:45] <factoryjoe> yeah
  376. [21:48:48] <factoryjoe> that's good
  377. [21:48:55] <factoryjoe> we should look at overlap w/ changesets
  378. [21:53:31] <ddfreyne> I'm not sure I like the names "version" and "shortVersionNumber"… revision/build/something? hm.
  379. [21:54:51] * illustir (n=alper@c51448e84.cable.wanadoo.nl) Quit ()
  380. [21:57:17] <factoryjoe> i don't, but we just need to document what's out there
  381. [21:58:00] <mfbot> [[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19599 * DenisDefreyne * (+449) Adding "Overlap with Changesets" issue; adding hListing todo item
  382. [22:02:41] <ddfreyne> Hm, there's also http://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/index-1.sucatalog
  383. [22:02:54] <ddfreyne> the one you linked to is probably iTunes-specific
  384. [22:05:52] <mfbot> [[downloads-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-formats&diff=0&oldid=19600 * DenisDefreyne * (+127)
  385. [22:10:38] <factoryjoe> yeah you;re right
  386. [22:10:43] <factoryjoe> that's the phobos apple server
  387. [22:10:49] <factoryjoe> all itunes/ipod/iphone specific
  388. [22:13:03] <ddfreyne> something like this is a bit too much for what we need
  389. [22:13:04] <ddfreyne> http://swcdn.apple.com/content/downloads/33/03/018-2946/JBXBxSWJvhjdFzWXKM3JTSpn5hyNRpMjzv/AppleKeyboardSoftware.dist
  390. [22:15:04] * Cygal (n=cygal@86.76.188.160) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  391. [22:16:37] <factoryjoe> whoa
  392. [22:16:37] <factoryjoe> but that's useful
  393. [22:16:43] <factoryjoe> what does microsoft do?
  394. [22:16:49] <factoryjoe> for msft updates?
  395. [22:17:20] <ddfreyne> I'd have to reboot into windows
  396. [22:19:53] <mfbot> [[downloads-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-formats&diff=0&oldid=19601 * DenisDefreyne * (-736) Removing Apple SU XML sample and adding link to a typical .dist XML file
  397. [22:20:24] <ddfreyne> hm, I can't find anything on MS' update mechanism
  398. [22:23:29] <ddfreyne> "function canHasDriver()" — do I detect lolcat speak in the software update XML file?
  399. [22:23:47] <factoryjoe> consider it detected
  400. [22:24:29] <ddfreyne> awsum thx
  401. [22:26:03] <factoryjoe> invisible highfive!
  402. [22:26:12] * ichigo (n=ichigo@chello062178051055.18.11.vie.surfer.at) has joined #microformats
  403. [22:26:57] <ddfreyne> also… what do you think about appcasts with downloads for multiple OSes, architectures, …? I've been trying to find a way to mark up such appcasts, but it's hard
  404. [22:28:59] <SignpostMarv> have you considered "going backwards"- e.g. rather than trying to spec a microformat, spec an XML data format- then a microformat from that
  405. [22:29:15] <ddfreyne> Sparkle would need a way to filter out the updates it can't use…  that would require marking up the OS, architecture, … of each download, which (I think) leads us a bit too far
  406. [22:29:30] <ddfreyne> there already is an XML data format—RSS with Sparkle extensions
  407. [22:29:48] <SignpostMarv> does that support multi OS/arch ?
  408. [22:30:23] <ddfreyne> but brainlessly porting a XML format to a microformat doesn't always seem to work well
  409. [22:30:41] <SignpostMarv> things can be fixed in translation
  410. [22:30:48] <ddfreyne> it doesn't; there are HTML pages out there that have downloads/release notes for multiple OSes and architectures
  411. [22:30:50] <SignpostMarv> microformats are meant to be based off of real-world examples
  412. [22:31:06] <SignpostMarv> hCalendar, hCard etc
  413. [22:31:10] <ddfreyne> obviously
  414. [22:31:10] <SignpostMarv> 1:1 translation
  415. [22:31:27] <SignpostMarv> if there is a data format that does the job, translate it and see what happens :-3
  416. [22:31:48] <ddfreyne> I'd like to forget about multi-* appcasts, unless someone can come up with a great way to mark them up
  417. [22:32:06] <SignpostMarv> didn't I do that already ? :-P
  418. [22:32:14] <ddfreyne> you did?
  419. [22:32:41] <ddfreyne> can't have been that great if I already forgot about it. :P
  420. [22:32:49] <SignpostMarv> lol :P
  421. [22:32:57] <ddfreyne> but please add it to the wiki… [[downloads-brainstorming]]
  422. [22:34:19] <factoryjoe> well hold on
  423. [22:34:21] <factoryjoe> um
  424. [22:34:27] <factoryjoe> i mean i guess i see the os native thing
  425. [22:35:05] * SignpostMarv has just thought of something
  426. [22:35:21] <SignpostMarv> defining each OS and each architecture as an hCard
  427. [22:35:36] <SignpostMarv> and referring to it in the appcast microformat via <object>
  428. [22:36:03] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: you'll have to mark up the OS type, OS version, architecture, possibly application kind (pro/lite/etc)
  429. [22:36:27] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: and I think that's bloat
  430. [22:36:34] <SignpostMarv> can the details for an OS and architecture be marked up as an hCard ?
  431. [22:36:40] <SignpostMarv> yes/no
  432. [22:37:01] <factoryjoe> bloat bloat bloat!
  433. [22:37:04] <factoryjoe> no hcards!
  434. [22:37:08] <ddfreyne> I think having a hCard for Mr. Windows Vista is rather odd
  435. [22:37:08] <factoryjoe> hcards are for people!
  436. [22:37:12] <factoryjoe> hcards are soylent green!
  437. [22:37:12] <SignpostMarv> could they, not should they
  438. [22:37:19] <factoryjoe> could they not!
  439. [22:37:26] <SignpostMarv> the point i'm making is this:
  440. [22:37:35] <factoryjoe> anyway architecture could just be <span class="architecture">
  441. [22:38:00] <SignpostMarv> if you use <object> to link to data elsewhere in the document or on the web, then you avoid the problem of the infinite number of class names you could generate when referencing an OS
  442. [22:38:28] <SignpostMarv> a "platform" is a combination of OS + architecture, right ?
  443. [22:39:47] <factoryjoe> oh man
  444. [22:39:55] <factoryjoe> SignpostMarv: have you been around here much?
  445. [22:39:59] <factoryjoe> you're talking crazy!
  446. [22:40:04] <SignpostMarv> :P
  447. [22:40:10] <SignpostMarv> modularisation of microformats
  448. [22:40:33] <SignpostMarv> plain text is probably insufficient to describe a platform
  449. [22:41:18] <ddfreyne> It's not a question of how it should be done; it's more like a question of whether it really should be done
  450. [22:41:22] <ddfreyne> (multi-* appcasts)
  451. [22:42:20] <factoryjoe> it's about how it's *already* being done
  452. [22:42:40] <SignpostMarv> modularising the declaration of a platform out of the appcast microformat would remove a lot of duplication of data, and allow for more data to be described about a platform
  453. [22:42:48] <factoryjoe> actually
  454. [22:42:49] <factoryjoe> DUH
  455. [22:42:54] <factoryjoe> architecture is just tags!!
  456. [22:43:00] <factoryjoe> it's compatible w/ hAtom that way
  457. [22:43:12] <factoryjoe> since many OSX updates will be PPC AND Intel
  458. [22:43:16] <factoryjoe> those are just tags
  459. [22:43:18] <SignpostMarv> what data is associated with architecture
  460. [22:43:30] <factoryjoe> what data?
  461. [22:43:34] <factoryjoe> well, processor-native code
  462. [22:44:30] * tantek (n=tantek@m815f36d0.tmodns.net) has joined #microformats
  463. [22:44:30] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  464. [22:44:30] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  465. [22:44:34] <factoryjoe> yo tantek
  466. [22:45:28] <ddfreyne> marking up a page like http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/mysql/5.0.html would still be a big task, heh
  467. [22:45:45] <tantek> wow look who has returned from a long absence ;)
  468. [22:45:52] <ddfreyne> That page's a bit extreme, but still :)
  469. [22:45:55] <factoryjoe> ;)
  470. [22:45:58] * tantek (n=tantek@m815f36d0.tmodns.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  471. [22:46:38] <SignpostMarv> DTDs are hosted by the peeps who developed the spec. why not have a microformat that defines a platform/os/arch hosted by the people who develop it ?
  472. [22:46:52] * tantek (n=tantek@m815f36d0.tmodns.net) has joined #microformats
  473. [22:46:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  474. [22:47:03] <factoryjoe> SignpostMarv: repeat your idea for tantek
  475. [22:47:13] <SignpostMarv> <SignpostMarv> DTDs are hosted by the peeps who developed the spec. why not have a microformat that defines a platform/os/arch hosted by the people who develop it ?
  476. [22:48:11] <tantek> because that's the wrong point in the analogy
  477. [22:48:19] <tantek> do you mean XMDP profiles?
  478. [22:48:39] <SignpostMarv> probably
  479. [22:48:59] <tantek> and people can, it's just that in practice fewer people pay attention to XMDP profiles than do to DTDs, and those are quite few
  480. [22:49:18] <tantek> also, a built in assumption of DTDs is one per document
  481. [22:49:30] <SignpostMarv> the idea:
  482. [22:49:35] <tantek> whereas XMDP profiles can be multiple per document
  483. [22:49:40] <SignpostMarv> microformat for describing a platform embeded into http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/default.mspx
  484. [22:49:45] <tantek> so the "why not" question doesn't make much sense
  485. [22:49:51] <tantek> ask it as a positive instead
  486. [22:49:56] <SignpostMarv> if the software runs in IE, <object class="platform" data="http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/default.mspx" />
  487. [22:50:28] <tantek> you want to encourage bindings to proprietary binary formats why again?
  488. [22:50:43] <factoryjoe> in stead: <a rel="tag" href="http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie" />
  489. [22:50:54] <SignpostMarv> that's an HTML document
  490. [22:50:56] <tantek> that's tagging something with "ie"
  491. [22:50:59] <factoryjoe> right
  492. [22:51:04] <SignpostMarv> not a binary format
  493. [22:51:09] <factoryjoe> tantek: we're talking about architectures in download formats
  494. [22:51:19] <factoryjoe> like PPC, Intel, Windows, etc
  495. [22:51:25] <factoryjoe> i suggested that we use tags
  496. [22:51:40] <SignpostMarv> I'm suggesting we don't :-P
  497. [22:51:42] <tantek> so you mean runs in Vista
  498. [22:51:53] <tantek> there are multiple questions
  499. [22:52:04] <tantek> whether you want a taxonomy or folksonomy etc.
  500. [22:52:16] <tantek> a registry ala MIME Content-Types like text/html
  501. [22:52:56] <ddfreyne> What if an appcast contains two actively developed branches, say 1.0 and 2.0… would you still use tags to distinguish between 1.0 and 2.0?
  502. [22:53:09] <tantek> ddfreyne, is "two actively developed branches" the 80/20 ?
  503. [22:53:13] <tantek> solve the 80/20 first
  504. [22:53:22] <tantek> of real world examples
  505. [22:53:27] <SignpostMarv> wordpress 2.0, 2.2; PHP 4,5
  506. [22:53:29] <tantek> before asking such theoretical "what ifs"
  507. [22:53:37] <SignpostMarv> actively maintained branches
  508. [22:53:58] <SignpostMarv> Apache 1.2, 2.0, and whatever it is we're on now
  509. [22:54:03] <gsnedders> 1.3/2.2
  510. [22:54:17] <ddfreyne> yeah
  511. [22:54:37] <factoryjoe> let's go back to the original application...
  512. [22:54:39] <tantek> "appcast" still sounds like a really poor name
  513. [22:54:47] <factoryjoe> delivering HTML-based application updates w/ payloads
  514. [22:54:50] <tantek> "apps" are a *fraction* of downloads
  515. [22:54:55] <tantek> plugins
  516. [22:54:58] <factoryjoe> tantek: we're not finalized on "appcasts"
  517. [22:55:03] <factoryjoe> appcasts is used in the wild
  518. [22:55:04] <SignpostMarv> hDownload :-P
  519. [22:55:07] <tantek> shouldn't even use them in the discussion
  520. [22:55:08] <factoryjoe> like podcast
  521. [22:55:21] <ddfreyne> tantek: I agree that the name "appcast" isn't great, but "downloads" isn't great either… these are versioned downloads
  522. [22:55:38] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Naming_considerations
  523. [22:55:39] <factoryjoe> the problem is that "downloads" "software" and similar "client-specific" names will be obsoleted
  524. [22:55:45] <factoryjoe> you don't always "download"
  525. [22:55:49] <tantek> yeah you do
  526. [22:56:01] <tantek> the UIs of all these update thingie say "downloading..."
  527. [22:56:07] <SignpostMarv> hDistribute ?
  528. [22:56:16] <tantek> SignpostMarv, please see prev URL
  529. [22:56:17] <factoryjoe> no
  530. [22:56:20] <factoryjoe> they say "updating"
  531. [22:56:21] * ddfreyne kicks SignpostMarv in the shins
  532. [22:56:32] <tantek> no, they say "downloading updates..."
  533. [22:56:34] <SignpostMarv> hehe, i'm just kidding.
  534. [22:56:46] * SignpostMarv finds the whole thing of microformats being prefixed with h odd
  535. [22:57:01] * tantek departs discussion for now.
  536. [22:57:20] <factoryjoe> tantek: when you return please provide evidence
  537. [22:57:32] <factoryjoe> i have seen "downloading..."
  538. [22:57:37] <factoryjoe> but i have seen "updating..." as well
  539. [22:57:43] <factoryjoe> http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/tags/updater
  540. [22:57:47] <SignpostMarv> updating is installing
  541. [22:57:53] <factoryjoe> http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/511599881/
  542. [22:57:54] <factoryjoe> no
  543. [22:57:57] <factoryjoe> updating is updating
  544. [22:57:58] <SignpostMarv> downloading is getting it
  545. [22:58:07] <factoryjoe> installing is typically done once
  546. [22:58:13] <factoryjoe> once you have installed something, you update it
  547. [22:58:15] <SignpostMarv> you install an update
  548. [22:58:25] <factoryjoe> http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/470068648/
  549. [22:58:29] <factoryjoe> "install..."
  550. [22:58:31] <factoryjoe> not "download"
  551. [22:59:27] <SignpostMarv> you download data, then you install it
  552. [22:59:48] <ddfreyne> I'd say updating is a combination of downloading and installing
  553. [23:00:09] <SignpostMarv> an update is installing a newer version of software that you already have
  554. [23:00:14] <SignpostMarv> e.g. upgrading
  555. [23:00:25] <SignpostMarv> downgrading is installing an older version of software you already have
  556. [23:00:44] <SignpostMarv> (or less/more feature complete)
  557. [23:00:49] <SignpostMarv> ^pro/lite etc
  558. [23:01:05] <SignpostMarv> installing is just installing software you don't have
  559. [23:01:20] <ddfreyne> so you can't install an update?
  560. [23:01:42] <SignpostMarv> are you defining an update as a whole piece of software or a patch ?
  561. [23:02:13] <ddfreyne> a whole piece of software
  562. [23:02:25] <factoryjoe> i don't think it matters
  563. [23:02:33] <factoryjoe> in practice, people send whole apps
  564. [23:02:35] <factoryjoe> not patches
  565. [23:02:35] <SignpostMarv> that'd be an upgrade, not an update methinx
  566. [23:02:43] <factoryjoe> i don't think it matters
  567. [23:02:50] <ddfreyne> people call it update all the time
  568. [23:03:14] <SignpostMarv> meh. semantics of the english language suck
  569. [23:04:30] <ddfreyne> I'd still like having a "download" microformat… something that adds extra data to a rel-enclosure
  570. [23:04:44] <SignpostMarv> the point is you can download data in 1 of 4 cases: you don't have any other version of it, you have a previous version, you have a newer version, or you have the same version
  571. [23:04:47] <ddfreyne> and that download microformat could also be used by the, eh, "update" microformat
  572. [23:05:41] <factoryjoe> we need to document macupdate.com, versiontracker.com and iusethis.com
  573. [23:05:55] <SignpostMarv> oldversion.com
  574. [23:06:38] <ddfreyne> <div class='header'>DESCRIPTION</div> ew.
  575. [23:07:15] <factoryjoe> ;)
  576. [23:07:31] <factoryjoe> we document
  577. [23:07:35] <factoryjoe> we don't necessarily use
  578. [23:09:02] <ddfreyne> my admiration for macupdate just vanished
  579. [23:09:21] <SignpostMarv> wouldn't it be a good idea to look at the specs for CVS and SVN ?
  580. [23:10:03] <ddfreyne> well, that's for changesets…  which are similar… so changesets could perhaps be merged into all this
  581. [23:10:54] <SignpostMarv> i'm referring more to how it describes the transaction
  582. [23:11:30] <SignpostMarv> you wouldn't redownload a file if the version hasn't changed
  583. [23:12:14] <SignpostMarv> similarly, you wouldn't redownload an application if the version hasn't changed
  584. [23:12:35] <ddfreyne> sparkle handles that
  585. [23:12:52] <SignpostMarv> is sparkle an application or a data format
  586. [23:13:14] <ddfreyne> sparkle is an application (app updater framework), and it uses RSS appcasts
  587. [23:13:38] <SignpostMarv> okay, so drop sparkle out of the discussion and focus more on data formats and data exchange
  588. [23:13:39] <ddfreyne> sparkle downloads the appcast RSS feed, extracts application versions, and checks whether any version is newer than the application that is being updated
  589. [23:14:01] <SignpostMarv> sparkle is an appcast client, not an appcast
  590. [23:14:25] <ddfreyne> sparkle is used in many mac os x apps, so ignoring it is probably not a great idea
  591. [23:14:25] <factoryjoe> sparkle is a framework, technically
  592. [23:14:25] <factoryjoe> brb
  593. [23:14:30] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@adsl-64-174-241-182.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  594. [23:14:49] <SignpostMarv> what i mean is, i'm cringing every time you mention sparkle
  595. [23:15:04] <SignpostMarv> sparkle is one thing
  596. [23:15:17] <SignpostMarv> it does shit
  597. [23:15:33] <SignpostMarv> start considering other stuff :-P
  598. [23:16:29] <SignpostMarv> there's no point designing a microformat based around one thing
  599. [23:16:53] <ddfreyne> Many apps that had their own update scheme have switched to sparkle
  600. [23:16:55] <SignpostMarv> </end vent>
  601. [23:16:57] <ddfreyne> also, appcast are not sparkle-specific
  602. [23:17:28] <SignpostMarv> if everything uses sparkle, then there'd be as much need for an appcast microformat as there is for hAtom
  603. [23:17:39] <SignpostMarv> e.g. little or none
  604. [23:17:41] <ddfreyne> but sparkle did help shape appcasts, and it's pretty much the most popular app update framework out there
  605. [23:18:12] <SignpostMarv> so sparkle influenced appcasts
  606. [23:18:15] <SignpostMarv> what influenced sparkle ?
  607. [23:18:56] <ddfreyne> first there were appcasts (RSS feeds with application update enclosures), and then there was sparkle
  608. [23:19:21] <ddfreyne> which is pretty much the appcast "killer app"
  609. [23:19:56] <SignpostMarv> if sparkle does the job perfectly, translate it and leave it at that
  610. [23:20:48] <ddfreyne> that's pretty much what I've done so far
  611. [23:21:06] <ddfreyne> but there are a few issues; check the downloads-brainstorming page
  612. [23:21:57] <mfbot> [[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19602 * DenisDefreyne * (+77)
  613. [23:22:33] * SignpostMarv is playing WoW right now
  614. [23:23:31] <SignpostMarv> is it a case of "we want to do stuff that would basically fork sparkle" ?
  615. [23:24:02] <ddfreyne> I don't want to fork sparkle at all
  616. [23:24:29] <SignpostMarv> then don't. any situation where you want to add a feature to the microformat that doesn't exist in sparkle, get sparkle to add it to their spec first
  617. [23:25:25] <SignpostMarv> if sparkle is the shiznit, then that missing feature won't be missed very much
  618. [23:26:14] <ddfreyne> that's pretty much the reason why I don't like multi-OS/arch/etc appcasts
  619. [23:26:30] <SignpostMarv> is that feature ever going to be in sparkle ?
  620. [23:27:09] <ddfreyne> no idea :)
  621. [23:27:33] <SignpostMarv> then just focus on doing hSparkle till it's added
  622. [23:27:54] <SignpostMarv> leave the headache up to the peeps who maintain sparkle
  623. [23:28:37] <SignpostMarv> everything you keep saying keeps leading back to sparkle
  624. [23:28:48] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19603 * MvtPzw * (+1318)
  625. [23:29:29] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19604 * Tantek * (-1318) Reverted edit of MvtPzw, changed back to last version by Tantek
  626. [23:29:43] <ddfreyne> it does…  but that's because pretty much the only implementation that uses RSS appcasts is Sparkle, and it's also the reason the appcast microformat was started
  627. [23:29:47] <SignpostMarv> so please, for the sake of my sanity, just do hSparkle :-P
  628. [23:29:50] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:MvtPzw" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  629. [23:32:59] <SignpostMarv> just put the platform info in the feed description and have multiple hAtom feeds in the document for the multi platform junk till sparkle changes
  630. [23:33:52] <ddfreyne> Ahh, sparkle 2.0 is going to have something like that… probably worth following the discussion on the sparkle mailinglist and seeing how they are doing it
  631. [23:34:08] <ddfreyne> and in the mean time, I think multi-* appcasts aren't worth it
  632. [23:34:35] <SignpostMarv> multiple hAtom feeds within a document implies multi-* appcasts :-P
  633. [23:35:28] <ddfreyne> no, still a single hatom feed
  634. [23:35:40] <ddfreyne> http://sparkle.andymatuschak.org/wiki/Documentation/PosetVersioning
  635. [23:35:44] <SignpostMarv> why not one for each * ?
  636. [23:36:33] <ddfreyne> that could work too
  637. [23:36:47] <SignpostMarv> ther you go, problem solved :-P
  638. [23:37:13] <ddfreyne> anyway, I'll just ignore multi-* appcasts for now… it's been discussed for weeks and we're still nowhere
  639. [23:37:14] <SignpostMarv> just whack 'em all in <body class="hSparkle"> and you'redone
  640. [23:38:40] <SignpostMarv> (or whatever class name you'd be using)
  641. [23:38:43] <ddfreyne> you really make everything look trivial
  642. [23:39:06] <SignpostMarv> ideas are trivial
  643. [23:39:11] <SignpostMarv> implementation might not be :-P
  644. [23:39:41] <SignpostMarv> conception & implementation are two different things, an thankfully, conception is much easier to do :-P
  645. [23:44:06] <ddfreyne> well, I'm heading off
  646. [23:44:07] <ddfreyne> g'night!
  647. [23:44:11] <SignpostMarv> toodles
  648. [23:44:30] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) Quit ("kthxbai")

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