IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-08-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:57] * DanCon (n=connolly@64-126-89-30.dyn.everestkc.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  2. [00:02:05] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
  3. [00:02:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o bewest
  4. [00:02:05] <jibot> bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  5. [00:03:03] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) has joined #microformats
  6. [00:10:39] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:RxnAjd" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  7. [00:10:46] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:microformats-fr": spam
  8. [00:10:51] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:LsgOv5" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  9. [00:10:58] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:propertyhttp:/kbase.x10.com/wiki/Improving Remote Control Range": spam
  10. [00:22:49] <mfbot> [[events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop&diff=0&oldid=20797 * Tantek * (+829) added some new sections, moved case study. move process discussions to Q&A. more social network portability details. link to upcoming. more tags.
  11. [00:24:05] <mfbot> [[events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop&diff=0&oldid=20798 * Tantek * (+282)
  12. [00:27:23] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-4f942a8e026a16ff) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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  14. [01:01:35] <mfbot> [[Talk:hResume]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:hResume * JoxU8p * (+14682)
  15. [01:21:17] * xian_ (i=xian@nat/yahoo/x-2f54fb6d9e72fade) Quit ()
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  21. [04:20:48] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181223139.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  22. [04:20:48] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  27. [04:52:14] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  29. [04:52:14] * ianloic (i=yakk@glub.dreamhostps.com) Quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  30. [04:52:14] * amir (n=Miranda@gentoo/developer/amir) Quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  31. [04:52:14] * ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) Quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  32. [04:52:31] * shigeta_ (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) Quit ("Leaving...")
  33. [04:57:17] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
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  38. [05:33:38] <mfbot> [[events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop&diff=0&oldid=20799 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) Outline -
  39. [05:34:04] <mfbot> [[events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop&diff=0&oldid=20800 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) restitution de la dernière modification de Tantek
  40. [05:34:30] <mfbot> [[events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop-fr&diff=0&oldid=20801 * ChristopheDucamp * (+923) sync in progress
  41. [05:34:37] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ("http:/www.csarven.ca")
  42. [05:36:16] <mfbot> [[events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-09-05-dconstruct-microformats-workshop-fr&diff=0&oldid=20802 * ChristopheDucamp * (+423) sync'd
  43. [05:39:17] <mfbot> [[Talk:course-catalog-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:course-catalog-examples * LnkTep * (+13542)
  44. [05:47:53] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) blocked "User:JoxU8p" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  45. [05:48:19] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) deleted "Talk:course-catalog-examples": spam
  46. [05:55:12] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@d54C57894.access.telenet.be) has joined #microformats
  47. [05:55:12] <jibot> ddfreyne is Denis Defreyne and blogs at http://stoneship.org/.
  48. [05:59:01] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=20803 * ChristopheDucamp * (-37) sync'd
  49. [06:03:07] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=20804 * ChristopheDucamp * (-100) En cours -
  50. [06:05:19] * bengee (n=bengee@ip32.9.1411M-CUD12K-01.ish.de) has joined #microformats
  51. [06:05:20] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  52. [06:24:19] <mfbot> [[Talk:tagcloud-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:tagcloud-examples * UmcHpv * (+13611)
  53. [06:33:47] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181223139.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  54. [06:33:47] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  55. [06:42:55] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:UmcHpv" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  56. [06:43:07] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:JoxU8p" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  57. [06:43:10] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  58. [06:43:10] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  59. [06:43:10] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  60. [06:43:17] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:hResume": spam
  61. [06:43:19] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:tagcloud-examples": spam
  62. [06:52:00] <mfbot> [[Talk:tagcloud-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:tagcloud-examples * GonGjw * (+14021)
  63. [06:54:18] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  64. [06:54:18] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & also in every time zone ever created, for KevinMarks is everpresent & the Podfather
  65. [07:01:44] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
  66. [07:02:57] <mfbot> [[Talk:process-brainstorming]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:process-brainstorming * Iu9X4m * (+14620)
  67. [07:09:17] * taichi (n=kaminogo@124.32.114.226) Quit ("Leaving...")
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  71. [07:26:48] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181223139.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
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  73. [08:07:54] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  74. [08:07:54] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  75. [08:34:18] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  76. [08:34:18] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  77. [08:44:21] * tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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  79. [08:47:29] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  80. [08:59:18] * briansuda (n=d91cb139@nicola.textdrive.com) has joined #microformats
  81. [08:59:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  82. [08:59:18] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  83. [09:01:12] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Brian * (+0) blocked "User:Iu9X4m" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  84. [09:01:23] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Brian * (+0) blocked "User:GonGjw" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  85. [09:01:39] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Brian * (+0) deleted "Talk:process-brainstorming": spam
  86. [09:01:55] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Brian * (+0) deleted "Talk:tagcloud-examples": spam
  87. [09:08:19] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  88. [09:13:24] * danja (n=danja@host170-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  89. [09:13:24] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  90. [09:29:10] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-e08b33b53a52faeb) has joined #microformats
  91. [09:29:10] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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  95. [10:03:42] * taichi (n=kaminogo@124.32.114.226) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  96. [10:14:00] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  97. [10:14:00] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  98. [11:01:43] * mefisto|w (n=mefisto|@213.175.120.26) has joined #microformats
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  101. [11:40:37] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=20805 * AndyMabbett * (+88) Specifications - distinguish types with symbols
  102. [11:41:13] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=20806 * AndyMabbett * (+11) Specifications - spaces
  103. [11:41:34] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=20807 * AndyMabbett * (+0) caps
  104. [11:57:23] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
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  108. [12:25:51] <mfbot> [[genealogy-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-examples&diff=0&oldid=20808 * OtsFa2 * (+13653)
  109. [12:27:53] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Brian * (+0) blocked "User:OtsFa2" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  110. [12:28:14] <mfbot> [[genealogy-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-examples&diff=0&oldid=20809 * Brian * (-13653) Reverted edit of OtsFa2, changed back to last version by Brian
  111. [12:39:23] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@cpe-76-189-106-159.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  112. [12:44:41] <mfbot> [[demohttp:/www.lyricist.com/Clues23.html]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/demohttp:/www.lyricist.com/Clues23.html * JyeCaz * (+14165)
  113. [12:44:52] <mfbot> [[events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof&diff=0&oldid=20810 * XbxYvj * (+9205)
  114. [13:01:07] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@cpe-76-189-106-159.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  115. [13:16:29] <mfbot> [[hproduct-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-feedback&diff=0&oldid=20811 * Tux * (+415) comment on product IDs
  116. [13:17:30] <mfbot> [[User talk:JasonGarber]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:JasonGarber&diff=0&oldid=20812 * QriFym * (+13903)
  117. [13:30:57] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Brian * (+0) blocked "User:QriFym" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  118. [13:31:08] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Brian * (+0) blocked "User:XbxYvj" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  119. [13:31:24] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Brian * (+0) blocked "User:JyeCaz" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  120. [13:31:30] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Brian * (+0) deleted "demohttp:/www.lyricist.com/Clues23.html": spam
  121. [13:32:06] <mfbot> [[events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof&diff=0&oldid=20813 * Brian * (-9205) Reverted edit of XbxYvj, changed back to last version by Tantek
  122. [13:32:22] <mfbot> [[User talk:JasonGarber]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:JasonGarber&diff=0&oldid=20814 * Brian * (-13903) Reverted edit of QriFym, changed back to last version by AndyMabbett
  123. [13:33:49] * AdrianLee (n=adrianle@host217-41-27-233.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #microformats
  124. [13:41:08] <mfbot> [[hproduct-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-feedback&diff=0&oldid=20815 * AndyMabbett * (+336) Global Trade Item Number
  125. [13:41:39] <mfbot> [[hproduct-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-feedback&diff=0&oldid=20816 * AndyMabbett * (+16) sub-ehad
  126. [13:43:05] <mfbot> [[vcard-suggestions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=20817 * AndyMabbett * (+231) Suggestions for New Properties - Global Trade Item Number
  127. [13:43:46] <mfbot> [[vcard-suggestions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=20818 * AndyMabbett * (-5) Global Trade Item Number - doh! Global Location Number
  128. [14:01:43] <mfbot> [[hcard-advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-advocacy&diff=0&oldid=20819 * AndyMabbett * (+104) Trade directories - Global Electronic Party Information Register (GEPIR)
  129. [14:18:30] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-f0520203787dc317) has joined #microformats
  130. [14:18:30] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  131. [14:19:48] <julianstahnke> did flickr never support hCard on user's friends pages? or did they remove it recently
  132. [14:37:37] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) has joined #microformats
  133. [14:37:37] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  134. [14:37:51] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) has left #microformats
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  139. [15:27:08] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=20820 * AndyMabbett * (+134) Admins - noprint class
  140. [15:35:27] * ivanoats_ (n=ivanoats@c-71-202-47-69.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
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  147. [15:58:10] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  148. [15:58:10] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  157. [16:15:00] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=20821 * AndyMabbett * (+355) Existing schema = GTIN
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  163. [16:34:22] <Hagfish2> Is there a channel specifically for talking about social network portability?
  164. [16:35:49] * runa (n=runa@200.69.209.25) has joined #microformats
  165. [16:40:27] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=20822 * Tantek * (-90) removed symbol noise from list of specs and fixed grammar, again, no need to explicitly make that distinction on the home page. it's not important enough for a first glance. moved compound/elemental.
  166. [16:40:43] <tantek> Hagfish2, certainly that's on-topic for this channel
  167. [16:41:01] <tantek> any specific aspects you wanted to talk about?
  168. [16:42:56] <Hagfish2> tantek: i wondered if people were aware of socialstream, and had any view on how close google's goals may be to ours?
  169. [16:43:15] <tantek> never heard of socialstream - URL?
  170. [16:43:46] <Hagfish2> http://hcii.cmu.edu/M-HCI/2006/SocialstreamProject/index.php
  171. [16:43:57] <Hagfish2> It's an academic project google invested in.
  172. [16:48:00] * amir (n=Miranda@gentoo/developer/amir) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  173. [16:48:08] * amir1641 (n=Miranda@80.238.134.134) has joined #microformats
  174. [16:48:13] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=20823 * Tantek * (+482) added resources section
  175. [16:49:59] * amir1641 is now known as amir
  176. [16:50:29] <tantek> Hagfish2, interesting, but sounds like another application/service-specific attempt to unify all social networks.
  177. [16:50:49] <Hagfish2> Yeah, i couldn't disprove that by looking at it.
  178. [16:50:51] <tantek> E.g. this quote "a unified social network that, as a service, provides social data to many other applications" sounds a lot like what Facebook has done (is trying to do)
  179. [16:51:19] <Hagfish2> Ah yes, "applications" not "networks"
  180. [16:51:35] <tantek> whereas the whole point of social network portability is so the user doesn't have to choose one particular "unified social network" to rule them all
  181. [16:51:49] <tantek> of course every company would like to be that "one unified social network"
  182. [16:52:12] <Hagfish2> http://www.forbes.com/technology/2007/08/28/google-brazil-network-tech-cx_ag_0828orkut.html
  183. [16:52:23] <Hagfish2> That article was what came me other ideas about the technology.
  184. [16:52:35] <Hagfish2> *gave me
  185. [16:54:07] <tantek> ah yes.
  186. [17:01:19] <Hagfish2> It's debatable whether that article accurately reflects the technology, and then doubly debately as to whether google will be / are applying it.
  187. [17:03:10] <mfbot> [[social network portability]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/social_network_portability * Tantek * (+40)
  188. [17:03:16] <mfbot> [[social-network-anti-patterns]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-anti-patterns&diff=0&oldid=20824 * Tantek * (+1103) added "One Unified Social Network" anti-pattern with examples of Facebook and Socialstream
  189. [17:03:30] <tantek> Hagfish2, certainly a reasonable assesment
  190. [17:04:01] <tantek> but for now, we should hold them accountable to their stated goals
  191. [17:04:10] <tantek> or rather, call them on them
  192. [17:04:46] <tantek> in the hopes that they will pursue social network portability instead
  193. [17:05:12] <Hagfish2> Yeah, how do we do that?
  194. [17:05:31] <Hagfish2> Spread the meme across the blogosphere and generate positive support for it?
  195. [17:06:00] <tantek> the best way to convince folks to do something differently is to enable the "different way" of doing it, and get adoption and support for it
  196. [17:06:09] <tantek> along with a key message like
  197. [17:06:11] <tantek> the *Web* is the platform, not any particular *web-site*.
  198. [17:07:47] <Hagfish2> Indeed, but it would be hard to compete with google's user-base.
  199. [17:08:52] <Hagfish2> Google could have both parts of the puzzle, with the existing social network plus a technology for opening it.
  200. [17:09:21] <Hagfish2> We just don't know how / whether they are going to use that technology.
  201. [17:09:34] <Hagfish2> I guess we could convince them to deploy it by reinventing the wheel.
  202. [17:10:24] <Hagfish2> I'd rather google just said "here are the APIs we're going to use, start coding some compatible sites"
  203. [17:10:29] <Hagfish2> Then we wouldn't be wasting any effort.
  204. [17:11:51] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
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  206. [17:12:02] <mfbot> [[presentation]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/presentation * Tantek * (+27)
  207. [17:13:23] <mfbot> [[data-portability]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/data-portability * Tantek * (+721) drafted.
  208. [17:13:56] <tantek> Hagfish2, the problem with "here are the APIs we're going to use, start coding some compatible sites" - is that that doesn't scale
  209. [17:14:15] <tantek> if every site says "here is my API", how hard does it get as an application developer to support them all?
  210. [17:14:24] <tantek> thus the value of open standards instead
  211. [17:14:29] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-e08b33b53a52faeb) Quit ("Fades out again…")
  212. [17:14:54] <tantek> sites support open standards, then application developers can write to the standard, instead of having to support each site-proprietary API that is developed.
  213. [17:15:23] <Hagfish2> Well, if Google's APIs do everything we need for openness, why don't we just declare that the standard?
  214. [17:15:43] <tantek> s/Google/Microsoft and you'll see what a lot folks were saying 15+ years ago
  215. [17:15:52] <tantek> that's equivalent to, why don't we all just use Windows?
  216. [17:16:23] <tantek> or declare Windows to be the standard?
  217. [17:17:01] <Hagfish2> Well, if the windows api was well documented and freely implementable, then maybe it should be.
  218. [17:17:13] <Hagfish2> And if windows did everything we wanted.
  219. [17:18:40] <Hagfish2> We can end up sitting in our ivory towers coming up with incredible specs that no one uses, while (hypothetically) google has created an open api that does what we want and is usable by anyone today.
  220. [17:18:47] <Hagfish2> I'm playing devil's advocate here.
  221. [17:18:50] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=20825 * Tantek * (+65) added user centric development section
  222. [17:19:06] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=20826 * Tantek * (-225) note relation to general data portability
  223. [17:19:53] <tantek> Windows API *was* well documented, freely implementable and did most things app developers wanted.
  224. [17:20:35] <tantek> Hagfish2 - no ivory towers here, microformats specs are based on real world behaviors *today*, and often implemented within weeks (if not days) of being developed.
  225. [17:20:51] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations is growing faster than we can keep up with.
  226. [17:21:44] <tantek> just the open social web itself (based on social network portability) is growing rapidly, with new sites coming online and new open source being released each week.
  227. [17:21:53] <Hagfish2> Windows> but you're arguing that no developers should write windows software?
  228. [17:22:18] <tantek> no I'm arguing that it was/is good that there are multiple platforms
  229. [17:22:20] <Hagfish2> Or that because the spec was outside their control, it could be updated in harmful ways?
  230. [17:22:33] <tantek> if everyone had standardized on Windows, we wouldn't have TCP/IP nor HTTP
  231. [17:23:20] <tantek> much better to have a free market of implementations/sites rather than trust any one particular implementation/site
  232. [17:23:37] <tantek> the result is competition and better products/services for the user
  233. [17:23:39] <Hagfish2> I think the analogy might be flawed, in that we are talking about an API as a communications protocol here, are we not?
  234. [17:24:04] <Hagfish2> Linux has samba, for example.
  235. [17:24:10] <tantek> communications protocols *are* APIs
  236. [17:24:17] <Hagfish2> Sure.
  237. [17:24:18] <tantek> are an example of
  238. [17:24:42] <tantek> so the simple answer is: competition = better products for everyone
  239. [17:27:33] <iwaim> tantek: hello
  240. [17:29:11] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) Quit (Client Quit)
  241. [17:31:24] <bewest> which google api are we talking about?
  242. [17:31:47] * bewest points out that gdata is just atom publishing protocol (an open standard) with some extensions
  243. [17:32:06] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-61321c1469c7beda) has joined #microformats
  244. [17:32:06] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  245. [17:34:27] * mkaply wonders why Google is using adr in their new map markup when it isn't an adr...
  246. [17:34:31] <mkaply> and vcard for that matter
  247. [17:49:03] <mfbot> [[rel-home-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-home-issues&diff=0&oldid=20827 * DpcCgb * (+14980)
  248. [17:49:40] <mfbot> [[rel-home-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-home-issues&diff=0&oldid=20828 * Tantek * (-14980) Reverted edit of DpcCgb, changed back to last version by MaxHarmony
  249. [17:50:01] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:DpcCgb" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  250. [17:50:32] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> can someone look at my microformats for me and tell me what i'm doing wrong?
  251. [17:50:42] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> http://citizenspace.us/citizens/
  252. [17:53:52] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=20829 * AndyMabbett * (-40) make template
  253. [17:54:33] <mfbot> [[Template:TOC-right]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:TOC-right * AndyMabbett * (+54) template (style should be external; suggest class="TOC-right")
  254. [18:06:16] <Hagfish> (sorry, had to leave my work place because we were closing up for the evening)
  255. [18:06:53] <Hagfish> yean, competition is good, but there is always a cost-benefit analysis to be done about reinventing the wheel, as with forking a project
  256. [18:07:21] <Hagfish> i'm wondering how close google's plans have to be to ours before we start working with them and not against them?
  257. [18:08:38] <Hagfish> i mean, if they had a working, open social network that had all the non-negotiable parts of what we wanted, would we really wait until we had all agreed on what the absolute perfect system was?
  258. [18:15:44] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-698a7a671b6fa467) has joined #microformats
  259. [18:15:44] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & also in every time zone ever created, for KevinMarks is everpresent & the Podfather
  260. [18:18:07] * mefisto (n=mefisto|@80.232.241.114) has joined #microformats
  261. [18:19:38] <tantek> Hagfish - there is no waiting - social network portability is being implemented now
  262. [18:19:44] <tantek> already implemented by several sites
  263. [18:19:52] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@d54C57894.access.telenet.be) has joined #microformats
  264. [18:19:52] <jibot> ddfreyne is Denis Defreyne and blogs at http://stoneship.org/.
  265. [18:19:56] <Hagfish> xfn + hcard?
  266. [18:20:14] <tantek> as far as "working with them" where "them" refers to a company - that's bizdev-centric thinking, which doesn't scale (across # of companies)
  267. [18:20:50] <Hagfish> by "working with them" i mean "implementing them same specs as they are using / publishing"
  268. [18:20:52] <tantek> Google is already implementing microformats, e.g. Blogger, Google Maps etc.
  269. [18:21:15] <tantek> better to develop open standards than implement specifications from any one company
  270. [18:21:30] <Hagfish> how do you measure the openness?
  271. [18:21:33] <tantek> and encourage companies to implement open standards instead of reinventing the wheel themselves
  272. [18:21:49] <Hagfish> PDF and RTF are "open" but controlled standards, right?
  273. [18:22:35] <tantek> that's a long discussion - in short, you need to see what the IP around the standards are - for microformats, we have either CC or public domain, and RF for patents
  274. [18:22:36] <Hagfish> i'd love to replace PDF with something SVG-based, but in reality it is "open enough" already
  275. [18:23:04] <Hagfish> i'm sure google would give a patent covenant for any technology in socialstream
  276. [18:23:08] <tantek> PDF is a bad standard - see http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=pdf+sucks&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
  277. [18:23:18] <tantek> personal experience: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/771992195/
  278. [18:23:27] <tantek> SVG is overly complex
  279. [18:23:32] <tantek> I don't like either
  280. [18:23:55] * runa (n=runa@200.69.209.25) Quit ("Leaving.")
  281. [18:24:14] <tantek> Hagfish, let's flip this around, why *wait* for socialstream when we're already making rapid progress with social network portability? http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-portability
  282. [18:24:40] <tantek> open communities can make much faster progress than a closed/private company developing its own thing
  283. [18:24:53] <Hagfish> except get the millions of users
  284. [18:25:14] <Hagfish> i certainly don't think the community should stop work
  285. [18:25:39] <tantek> millions of users on Flickr already have hCards
  286. [18:25:56] <Hagfish> hmm
  287. [18:26:01] <tantek> millions of users on LinkedIn already have hCards and hResumes
  288. [18:26:45] * runa (n=runa@200.69.209.25) has joined #microformats
  289. [18:26:45] <tantek> so the question I have for you is why are you so Google-centric in your thinking?
  290. [18:26:56] <bewest> don't forget yahoo
  291. [18:27:01] <Hagfish> google has one of the most popular social networks
  292. [18:27:40] <bewest> btw, google seems extra-ordinarily good about employing open standards in their implementations, especially relative to other companies
  293. [18:28:36] <Hagfish> so is it a case of waiting to see if anything google deploys is incompatible with the already-working stuff we have implemented, and pressuring them to change it?
  294. [18:29:06] <Hagfish> that does sound workable, given the facts you've quoted
  295. [18:30:27] <bewest> well, the thing is what google deploys is up to google to decide
  296. [18:32:48] <Hagfish> well, if google are still trying to choose between two systems, and we show them that hcard does everything they want, then that might change their mind
  297. [18:33:02] <Hagfish> the problem is we don't know exactly what they want, so it's hard to convince them
  298. [18:33:47] <Hagfish> i assume they want a widely deployed standard, but we're already working on that
  299. [18:33:57] <Hagfish> http://blog.compete.com/2007/07/24/top-social-networks-june-myspace-facebook/
  300. [18:34:10] <Hagfish> i didn't realise they are only at 11th by attention
  301. [18:34:12] <tantek> Hagfish, there are people from Google often in this channel and on the lists, like KevinMarks
  302. [18:34:33] <Hagfish> i don't know why i didn't think about that
  303. [18:34:37] <tantek> Hagfish, that's part of my point - company's fortunes/popularities rise and fall
  304. [18:34:40] <Hagfish> how open are they?
  305. [18:34:48] <tantek> hence company-centric thinking is inefficient
  306. [18:34:52] <Hagfish> to suggestions
  307. [18:34:58] <tantek> it's an outdated "1.0" model if you will
  308. [18:35:16] <Hagfish> i'm only trying to bootstrap this system with a large increase in users
  309. [18:35:24] <tantek> the web now supports open development and promotion by blogs etc. much faster than any one (or two) companies can develop things
  310. [18:35:37] <Hagfish> essentially marketing it, showing it works and benefits the incumbents
  311. [18:35:50] <tantek> benefits new and incumbents alike, if differently
  312. [18:35:58] <Hagfish> sure
  313. [18:36:13] * bewest is interested to see where the portable social network stuff goes
  314. [18:36:13] * WilleRaab (n=raab@89-253-85-3.customers.ownit.se) Quit ()
  315. [18:36:28] <tantek> Plaxo also has millions of users who have hCards
  316. [18:36:49] <Hagfish> the alternative is the "linux" route, where you make something progressively better and more and more people switch to it, despite the efforts of the encumbents
  317. [18:36:59] <tantek> there are fewer and fewer proprietary walled-garden social networks that have more members than all the open social web networks put together
  318. [18:37:30] <mfbot> [[hcard-advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-advocacy&diff=0&oldid=20830 * AndyMabbett * (+58) Trade directories - GEPIR requested
  319. [18:37:42] <Hagfish> yes, i'd prefer it if the compatible social web had more than the walled gardens put together
  320. [18:37:45] <tantek> open standards actually scale and compete better than open source - the analogy to Linux is not quite right
  321. [18:37:46] <Hagfish> that would be saying something
  322. [18:37:53] <tantek> HTML vs. Word is a better analogy
  323. [18:38:09] <Hagfish> except they have different use cases
  324. [18:38:34] <tantek> Hagfish, you can look at the implementation, timelines etc. and do the extrapolatory math for yourself as to when the open social web will eclipse any one proprietary network
  325. [18:38:49] <Hagfish> maybe google already have
  326. [18:39:07] <KevinMarks> Google Docs has a Word processor whose native format id HTML
  327. [18:39:13] <Hagfish> well, it seems like they started the socialstream project before this open social web really started to be taken seriously
  328. [18:39:20] <Hagfish> so they could be tied to some outdated ideas
  329. [18:39:26] <Hagfish> like just being an aggregator
  330. [18:39:50] <tantek> Hagfish, lots of people are tied to outdated ideas, that's why it's good to have a free market to help sort them out from what's modern/working better.
  331. [18:40:19] <KevinMarks> something I can say is that orkut is a real eye-opener
  332. [18:40:22] <Hagfish> but incumbents can distort the free market
  333. [18:40:26] <Hagfish> at least present roadblocks
  334. [18:40:35] <Hagfish> KevinMarks: how so?
  335. [18:40:41] <KevinMarks> in Brazil a large majority of the web population is on it
  336. [18:41:00] <KevinMarks> in some ways it is their web experience
  337. [18:41:14] <KevinMarks> that was a culture shock for me
  338. [18:41:43] <Hagfish> but if google's plans are just to reproduce that in other markets, even if just in previously untapped regional markets, that's not really going far enough
  339. [18:42:04] <KevinMarks> I can't talk about Google's plans in detail
  340. [18:42:09] <Hagfish> sure
  341. [18:42:27] <KevinMarks> partly because googles model is often to try many things in parallel
  342. [18:42:28] <Hagfish> do you think they are responsive to the work done by communities like this?
  343. [18:42:38] <Hagfish> ahh, that's encouraging
  344. [18:43:07] <mfbot> [[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=20831 * ChristopheDucamp * (+819) synchro
  345. [18:43:31] <KevinMarks> to some extent - there is an attitude here that microformats are a tiny part of the web, and you can do more by looking at the whole web and deriving meaning from it algorithmically
  346. [18:43:51] <Hagfish> that's certainly exciting
  347. [18:44:02] <bewest> Hagfish: Google is actually participating in the development of the next version of HTML... I'm not sure what kind of responsiveness you are talking about.
  348. [18:44:10] <bewest> they employ the editor of the HTML5 draft
  349. [18:44:15] <Hagfish> i was reading about powerset yesterday, that whole approach has a lot of promise, and i'm sure google aren't just sitting around about it
  350. [18:44:18] <bewest> * one of the editors
  351. [18:44:26] <KevinMarks> more than one afiak
  352. [18:44:31] <KevinMarks> joe gregorio joined
  353. [18:44:37] <bewest> really?
  354. [18:44:43] <Hagfish> i hadn't thought of it like
  355. [18:44:45] <Hagfish> that
  356. [18:44:58] <KevinMarks> and mark pilgrim is writing an html5 validator as his 20% project
  357. [18:45:26] <Hagfish> so have google people help define microformats on company time?
  358. [18:46:01] <Hagfish> i guess i could browse the wiki logs, heh
  359. [18:46:49] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-61321c1469c7beda) Quit ("Leaving")
  360. [18:47:08] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
  361. [18:48:14] <bewest> companies are typically very sensitive about how they are represented... it would be a bit unusual for an individual to participate in a project and say "well here's what we want to do, on behalf of company X"
  362. [18:48:24] <KevinMarks> right
  363. [18:48:38] <Hagfish> but they are heavily involved in HTML5/
  364. [18:48:39] <Hagfish> ?
  365. [18:48:55] <KevinMarks> I can't go round saying "I speak for google" without going through PR trainaing and clearing it first
  366. [18:49:04] <Hagfish> sure
  367. [18:49:28] <Hagfish> so is there a difference between "on company time" and "i speak for google"?
  368. [18:49:32] <KevinMarks> in any case, knowing what 'google' thinks about stuff is hard
  369. [18:49:35] <bewest> they are, but the people involved don't typically represent google with statements like "we'd like to add attributes because we're goign to use it in the following way..."
  370. [18:49:58] <bewest> those kinds of decisions are often considered confidential information, by most companies
  371. [18:50:17] <bewest> until the product launches, anyway
  372. [18:50:27] <Hagfish> but a google employ might say "that would be a bad attribute because it doesn't make semantic sense"
  373. [18:51:23] <bewest> yeah, that happens all the time. notice how the focus of that statement is on technical merits, has no reference to a company's agenda
  374. [18:51:25] <KevinMarks> broadly Google supports open standards, including HTML and microformats, but also APP (gData) and other data formats too
  375. [18:51:41] <Hagfish> excellent
  376. [18:52:11] <Hagfish> i should probably research gData so i can guess better at how these supports overlap
  377. [18:53:56] <KevinMarks> "8 services now use GData API's (a standards-based protocol across multiple services, letting developers use the same API format for those services): Google Apps Provisioning, Base, Blogger, Calendar, Code Search, Notebook, Spreadsheets, Picasa Web Albums."
  378. [18:54:16] <Hagfish> yeah, it seems to fill a valid need
  379. [18:54:26] <Hagfish> well, in as much as Atom etc identified that need
  380. [18:54:36] <KevinMarks> gdata is basically APP - it'a CRUD XML standard
  381. [18:54:36] <Hagfish> i will trust that the extensions to it are necessary and friendly
  382. [18:55:18] <Hagfish> are the microformat people pushing screenscraping as a competitor(?) to gdata?
  383. [18:55:27] <Hagfish> and is heavy stuff like SOAP another competitor?
  384. [18:55:33] <Hagfish> "alternative", i should perhaps say
  385. [18:55:40] <KevinMarks> alternative is better
  386. [18:56:48] <KevinMarks> http://code.google.com/apis/
  387. [18:57:00] <Hagfish> http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/index.html
  388. [18:57:02] <Hagfish> i'm there
  389. [18:57:11] <KevinMarks> note that the only SOAP api there is deprecated
  390. [18:57:11] <Hagfish> i'm missing some pieces of the puzzle
  391. [18:59:09] <Hagfish> Solution: With the AdWords API, online stores can integrate their existing inventory systems with their Google AdWords campaigns. By building custom functionality to adjust Google AdWords keywords to reflect the products currently in stock and to raise the keyword bids on those products with greater margins, retailers can more accurately optimize for profitability.
  392. [18:59:11] <Hagfish> wow
  393. [19:00:41] <Hagfish> surely the microformats people must have an idea how sites will update each other when you add something to one?
  394. [19:00:56] <KevinMarks> eh?
  395. [19:01:02] <KevinMarks> there's pingerati
  396. [19:01:12] * runa (n=runa@200.69.209.25) Quit ("Leaving.")
  397. [19:01:38] <Hagfish> Pingerati is also a ping router (multiplexer). Pingerati receives updates of pages with microformats from numerous sources, and sends those pings to services that support microformats.
  398. [19:01:39] <Hagfish> wowza
  399. [19:01:47] <KevinMarks> but that sounds a bit of a general statement - give me a specific use case
  400. [19:03:02] * KevinMarks assumes ryan is maintaining pingerati...
  401. [19:03:37] <Hagfish> which general statement, sorry?
  402. [19:04:00] <KevinMarks> "surely the microformats people must have an idea how sites will update each other when you add something to one?"
  403. [19:04:17] <Hagfish> well, i guess that's general
  404. [19:04:41] <Hagfish> what about "surely someone involved in the microformats community must have put forward an idea about how a site will receive updates made to another site"
  405. [19:04:52] <KevinMarks> yes, that's pingerati
  406. [19:04:56] <Hagfish> right
  407. [19:05:12] <KevinMarks> tantek and I built that about a year ago,
  408. [19:05:14] <Hagfish> and people running their own pingerati systems, does that scale?
  409. [19:05:43] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-698a7a671b6fa467) Quit ("rebooting to kick firefox")
  410. [19:12:23] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-f91307188ebded34) has joined #microformats
  411. [19:13:35] <KevinMarks> firefox is driving me mad the last few days
  412. [19:14:12] <Hagfish> heh
  413. [19:14:26] <Hagfish> i'm working out if i can escape the firefox trap
  414. [19:14:29] <Hagfish> it's not easy
  415. [19:15:09] <Hagfish> anyway, i was interested in how scalable it is to have competing pingerati systems?
  416. [19:15:40] <Hagfish> do providers have to make sure that all pingeratis know about them?
  417. [19:16:20] <Hagfish> would someone create a meta-pingerati, that tells your blog who the pingeratis are you have to ping?
  418. [19:16:40] <KevinMarks> well ping relay
  419. [19:16:51] <Hagfish> ooh, interesting
  420. [19:17:10] <KevinMarks> there are multipath problems and spam too
  421. [19:17:10] <Hagfish> so you trust that the pingerati you ping knows, at least transitively, all other pingeratis?
  422. [19:17:17] <KevinMarks> we had a lo fo this with blog ping
  423. [19:17:25] <Hagfish> uh huh
  424. [19:17:44] <Hagfish> is it just me or are we winning the war on email spam?
  425. [19:17:56] <Hagfish> spammers seem to be getting more desperate, and i'm assuming less effective
  426. [19:18:05] <KevinMarks> well, depnds how you look at it
  427. [19:18:22] <KevinMarks> an entire generation are moving off email and onto IM and social network apps
  428. [19:19:05] <Hagfish> ah yes, that might be enough to change the economics of email spam, but not reduce the amount of spam
  429. [19:19:25] <Hagfish> (and in fact increase it, as people's communication becomes more closed and harder to filter)
  430. [19:20:11] <Hagfish> but if IM and social networks were whitelisted and bootstrapped with email, that might work
  431. [19:21:47] <Hagfish> so, i guess i just wonder if google could swallow their pride and jump on the microformats bandwagon if they thought it would achieve whatever socialstream was going to achieve, but was substantially different from it
  432. [19:22:30] <Hagfish> the fact they're not an "eggs in one basket" kinda company is a good sign they'd be flexible enough to do it
  433. [19:23:07] <Hagfish> so maybe it comes down to how much faith they put in these sorts of community efforts
  434. [19:23:19] <Hagfish> enough to scrap a sponsored CMU project?
  435. [19:33:10] <mfbot> [[social-network-anti-patterns]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-anti-patterns&diff=0&oldid=20832 * Tantek * (+359) Lisa McMillan quote re: SNS hijacking address books
  436. [19:37:40] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) Quit (Client Quit)
  437. [19:39:06] <Hagfish> my best guess is that google don't want to be the first (or too early) adopter of something NIH, so they will go for microformats (to gain some popularity, too), as well as whatever the socialstream technology becomes
  438. [19:39:38] <Hagfish> i don't think it's quite what the microformats community has in mind, but it might be compatible
  439. [19:40:38] <Hagfish> maybe it will just be a gdata / rss feed of changes, including things like "this person has added a friend recently"
  440. [19:40:45] <Hagfish> not quite pingerati, but it would do
  441. [19:51:42] <Hagfish> well, KevinMarks, i'm going home for the weekend but it's been a pleasure talking to you, i guess we'll know at least a bit more about google's plans soon enough, when they publicise the next installment
  442. [19:52:45] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> kevinmarks: you still here?
  443. [19:58:58] * mefisto (n=mefisto|@80.232.241.114) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  444. [20:07:18] <KevinMarks> hello
  445. [20:09:09] <KevinMarks> what's up, chris?
  446. [20:15:34] * SignpostMarv (n=Signpost@82-71-31-169.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  447. [20:16:30] <SignpostMarv> boo. Not sure if this has been discussed before, but what are your thoughts on using rel="mine", which has a similar function to rel="me", but is intended for documents which are "mine" ?
  448. [20:20:36] <KevinMarks> hm, interesting
  449. [20:21:41] <SignpostMarv> argument against it would be that any document that has an hCard in it that points to the same rel="me" as the originating document would imply rel="mine",
  450. [20:21:46] <mattis^> me/says hi
  451. [20:21:53] <SignpostMarv> but not all services support hCard
  452. [20:22:20] <tantek> in essence you are proposing a replacement for rev="author"
  453. [20:22:24] <mfbot> [[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=20833 * AndyMabbett * (+95) Real-World Examples - USA only
  454. [20:22:33] <SignpostMarv> and if you're linking to non-xml data, you can't imply rel="mine"
  455. [20:22:53] <SignpostMarv> tantek: maybe not a replacement, more an accompaniment
  456. [20:23:01] <SignpostMarv> you can't use rev="author" in a JPEG
  457. [20:23:14] <KevinMarks> yes you can
  458. [20:23:29] <tantek> SignpostMarv, they're equivalent. note *rev* rather than *rel*
  459. [20:23:30] <SignpostMarv> ??
  460. [20:23:34] <KevinMarks> well, you can't use rel or rev in an img
  461. [20:23:42] <KevinMarks> but if it is a link you can
  462. [20:23:45] <SignpostMarv> i mean in the file itself
  463. [20:23:48] <SignpostMarv> not a link
  464. [20:24:21] <KevinMarks> <a href="thing.jpg" rev="author"><img src="thing.jpg" /></a>
  465. [20:24:28] <SignpostMarv> example of implementation:
  466. [20:24:29] <tantek> rev="author" means *this page here* represents an "author" for/of that page over there
  467. [20:24:40] <SignpostMarv> http://flickr.com/photos/signpostmarv/878909385/
  468. [20:24:49] <KevinMarks> rev is very confusing tho'
  469. [20:25:04] <tantek> yes, but it is pre-existing practice
  470. [20:25:16] <SignpostMarv> links to that on http://flickr.com/photos/signpostmarv/ use rev-author,
  471. [20:25:40] <SignpostMarv> direct links to http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1255/878909385_4ffa87d9f2.jpg?v=0 use rel-mine ?
  472. [20:25:45] <SignpostMarv> or am I confusing the whole rev thing
  473. [20:25:45] <mfbot> [[Talk:xfn-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:xfn-fr * XmkXac * (+14933)
  474. [20:26:10] <KevinMarks> what I want is a rel value that means "I am reading/following this person"
  475. [20:26:26] <KevinMarks> can't think of a good word
  476. [20:26:33] <SignpostMarv> KevinMarks: wouldn't that be rel="muse" ?
  477. [20:26:41] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:xfn-fr": spam
  478. [20:26:46] <KevinMarks> muse is defined as romantic
  479. [20:26:51] <SignpostMarv> meh
  480. [20:26:52] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:XmkXac" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  481. [20:26:58] <SignpostMarv> personally i think that's totally incorrect
  482. [20:27:05] <SignpostMarv> calling it romantic
  483. [20:27:40] <tantek> please see the email archives on that subject - no need to rehash it out
  484. [20:28:00] <KevinMarks> XFN is all nouns, and I can't think of a noun, except maybe "source"
  485. [20:28:08] <SignpostMarv> "muse
  486. [20:28:08] <SignpostMarv> Someone who brings you inspiration. No inverse."
  487. [20:28:14] <KevinMarks> rel="interesting"
  488. [20:28:34] <KevinMarks> rev="follower"
  489. [20:28:47] <tantek> no new rev values please
  490. [20:28:53] <KevinMarks> I know, I know
  491. [20:29:14] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq#Should_.27rev.27_even_be_used
  492. [20:29:26] <SignpostMarv> tantek: so I'd use rev-author when linking to my own work (that's hosted elsewhere) on my blog for example ?
  493. [20:29:33] <KevinMarks> I have trouble phrasing it as a noun
  494. [20:29:51] <tantek> KevinMarks please see current state of that work: http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming#Fans_and_followers
  495. [20:30:16] <tantek> SignpostMarv, yes, that's what people using rev="author" do today
  496. [20:30:35] <KevinMarks> yes, I posted this there before
  497. [20:30:36] <SignpostMarv> ah cool :-)
  498. [20:30:55] <KevinMarks> chris is defining a rev value
  499. [20:31:35] <SignpostMarv> tantek: are there any other cool microformats that aren't included inthe wiki front page ?
  500. [20:31:41] <KevinMarks> rel="follower" says they follow me, I want an inverse
  501. [20:32:02] <SignpostMarv> rel="followee" :-P
  502. [20:32:16] <Jedi_> rev?
  503. [20:33:34] <SignpostMarv> rel-follow + rev-follow ?
  504. [20:34:05] <SignpostMarv> rel-follow = "this follow that", rev-follow = "that follows this" ?
  505. [20:36:03] <tantek> no new rev values, please see above
  506. [20:36:13] <KevinMarks> how about "star" as the inverse of "fan" ?
  507. [20:36:17] * SignpostMarv reads
  508. [20:36:39] <tantek> KevinMarks is the person you link to your "star"?
  509. [20:36:52] <tantek> star is too overloaded anyway
  510. [20:36:58] <KevinMarks> rel="influence" ?
  511. [20:37:01] <SignpostMarv> star = ball of gas
  512. [20:37:06] <tantek> rel="influencer"
  513. [20:37:13] <tantek> nice one signpostmarv
  514. [20:37:29] <tantek> ball of hot gas at that
  515. [20:38:01] <SignpostMarv> is there a difference between influence and inspiration ? e.g. using rel-muse
  516. [20:38:53] <tantek> i suppose another literal inverse would be "leader"
  517. [20:39:02] <tantek> e.g. rel="follower" rel="leader"
  518. [20:39:09] <KevinMarks> hm
  519. [20:39:37] <tantek> though i don't think that's what you mean
  520. [20:39:56] <tantek> whoa.
  521. [20:39:57] <KevinMarks> that is edging towards the cant phrase "thought leader"
  522. [20:39:59] * tantek just found http://www.w3.org/TR/relations.html
  523. [20:40:03] <tantek> note the URL
  524. [20:40:15] <tantek> i think someone forgot about that page
  525. [20:40:35] <tantek> it's an outdated list of the rel values being considered for HTML4.0 (predates 1998 at least)
  526. [20:40:48] <KevinMarks> mmm, all caps
  527. [20:40:52] <SignpostMarv> heh. rel-author :-P
  528. [20:41:02] <KevinMarks> rel-made
  529. [20:41:08] <KevinMarks> thats marv's rel-mine
  530. [20:41:25] <SignpostMarv> sweet :-P
  531. [20:41:50] <tantek> but they use it as rev in the example:
  532. [20:41:52] <tantek> MADE
  533. [20:41:52] <tantek> The REV=MADE relationship has been used to identify the author or "maker" of an HTML document. Typical HREF values include a mailto: URI or the URL of the author's home page.
  534. [20:41:53] <tantek> <A REV=MADE HREF="mailto:murray@sq.com" > Author </A>
  535. [20:41:53] <tantek> AUTHOR
  536. [20:41:53] <tantek> The AUTHOR relationship identifies a hypertext link to an author.
  537. [20:41:54] <tantek> The hypertext link may be to the author's home page, a biography, an audio or video clip, or an agent which sends mail to the author (i.e., using mailto: ).
  538. [20:42:09] * tantek never liked "made"
  539. [20:43:17] <KevinMarks> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#link-type1
  540. [20:43:29] <KevinMarks> "Synonyms: For historical reasons, user agents must also treat link, a, and area elements that have a rev attribute with the value "made" as having the author keyword specified as a link relationship"
  541. [21:03:05] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> back
  542. [21:03:15] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> you guys still here?
  543. [21:04:38] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> hello?
  544. [21:04:39] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> tantek?
  545. [21:04:40] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> kevinmarks?
  546. [21:05:23] <KevinMarks> hello
  547. [21:05:30] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> hi
  548. [21:05:31] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> so...
  549. [21:05:33] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> a couple issues
  550. [21:05:41] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i'm having problems with this page: http://citizenspace.us/citizens/
  551. [21:05:41] <tantek> ... at lunch
  552. [21:06:03] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> when i send it to get converted... it loses some people's last names
  553. [21:06:23] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> as well, i previously was using only "n" and given-name and family-name and the 'rati converter wasn't able to extract anything
  554. [21:06:33] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> and
  555. [21:06:35] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i had a problem with nicknames
  556. [21:06:55] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> tara had written in nicknames like 'tara "missrogue" hunt'
  557. [21:07:01] <tantek> factoryjoe, both fn and n are required
  558. [21:07:16] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> oh really?
  559. [21:07:26] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i guess i always just use fn
  560. [21:07:27] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ok
  561. [21:07:29] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> well
  562. [21:07:31] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i can fix that
  563. [21:07:37] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> here's another issue
  564. [21:08:09] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> so i wanted to mark up the name as <n><given name>tara</given name> "<nickname>missrogue</nickname>" <family-name>hunt</family-name></n>
  565. [21:08:19] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> a crap
  566. [21:08:20] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> it lost my markup
  567. [21:09:32] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> anyway
  568. [21:09:35] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  569. [21:09:54] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> my point is that nicknames are often written up in the middle of names
  570. [21:09:55] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> of FNs
  571. [21:10:14] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> but my impression is that you can't embed a nickname in the middle of an N or FN
  572. [21:13:12] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> hmm
  573. [21:16:55] <KevinMarks> hm, who was I talking to about this
  574. [21:17:04] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> dunno
  575. [21:17:21] <KevinMarks> In principle you cna put fn on both the given name and family name bits
  576. [21:17:30] <KevinMarks> as fn si supposed to concatenate
  577. [21:17:35] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> on each?
  578. [21:17:46] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> so class="fn given-name"?
  579. [21:18:07] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> as opposed to wrapping it all?
  580. [21:18:39] <KevinMarks> though I though implied fn was concatenate <n. elements in known order
  581. [21:18:59] * SignpostMarv (n=Signpost@82-71-31-169.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  582. [21:19:52] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> hmm
  583. [21:20:28] <KevinMarks> http://hellmutt.livejournal.com/649708.html
  584. [21:37:28] <tantek> KevinMarks, that's proposed as a brainstorm but not in the spec
  585. [21:37:43] <KevinMarks> ah
  586. [21:37:58] <KevinMarks> but concatenating multiple "fn" is?
  587. [21:37:58] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Implied_FN_from_N
  588. [21:38:17] <tantek> there is no multiple fn. fn is singular.
  589. [21:39:59] <KevinMarks> I mean <span class="fn">Tara</span> missrogue <span class="fn"> Hunt</span> => {"fn":"Tara Hunt"}
  590. [21:42:46] <tantek> no that's not supported
  591. [21:42:51] <KevinMarks> ah
  592. [21:43:17] <KevinMarks> oops, I thought that was a generic rule for singular properties
  593. [21:43:27] <tantek> factoryjoe, could you add your real world example of citizenspace citizens to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Implied_FN_from_N
  594. [21:44:01] <tantek> as a real world example which will help push it forward as a real world driven update
  595. [21:44:54] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ok
  596. [21:44:55] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> sure
  597. [21:45:04] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> what should i do in the meantime?
  598. [21:48:17] <tantek> well the fn on the alt for the img seems to work fine
  599. [21:48:19] <tantek> note that you can have the fn there
  600. [21:48:21] <tantek> and the n on the text
  601. [21:48:23] <tantek> fn and n don't need to overlap
  602. [21:48:45] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i actually removed
  603. [21:48:46] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> the fn from the photo
  604. [21:49:05] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> because i was getting partial results w/ the N-only data
  605. [21:49:16] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i.e. the family-name was being lost for 4 of the 7 records
  606. [21:49:17] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i.e. i was only getting firstnames in my address book
  607. [21:49:26] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i htink i'll just use the FN on the img tag
  608. [21:49:37] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> since the family-name and given-name stuff isn't working
  609. [21:50:37] <tantek> it works, you just have to use both
  610. [21:50:58] * epeus (i=KevinMar@conference/plone/docsprint/x-c263ebaab8c67dbc) has joined #microformats
  611. [21:51:27] <jibot> epeus is Kevin Marks and kevinmarks and the new bodysnatcher
  612. [21:51:32] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> hmm?
  613. [21:51:43] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> fn on both the photo and the spans?
  614. [21:51:47] <tantek> both fn on the img alt
  615. [21:51:49] <tantek> and n on the spans
  616. [21:53:25] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> n on given-name and family-name spans?
  617. [21:53:25] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> can you point to a correctly marked up example?
  618. [21:53:28] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-f91307188ebded34) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  619. [21:53:28] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> maybe on pastie.caboo.se
  620. [21:54:20] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ok
  621. [21:54:21] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i just removed all the N classes
  622. [21:54:30] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> and stuff with FN on the img.alt tags..
  623. [21:54:31] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> now it works fine
  624. [21:54:40] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i'll just do that
  625. [22:02:28] <tantek> you can also specify class="nickname" without the n
  626. [22:02:37] <tantek> so add just that little bit back in
  627. [22:08:20] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  628. [22:08:20] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  629. [22:12:46] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ok
  630. [22:14:51] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> done
  631. [22:14:53] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> nice
  632. [22:14:54] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> it works
  633. [22:15:01] * epeus (i=KevinMar@conference/plone/docsprint/x-c263ebaab8c67dbc) Quit (Connection timed out)
  634. [22:18:15] * mefisto (n=mefisto|@80.232.241.114) has joined #microformats
  635. [22:33:30] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> tantek: any reason why the photos of people aren't included in the downloaded vcards?
  636. [22:34:19] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=20834 * Tantek * (-1) typo
  637. [22:35:14] <tantek> factoryjoe - they are included, but as URLs, as they should be
  638. [22:35:46] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> hmm
  639. [22:36:06] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i don't disagree, but are you saying that it's a bug in Address Book.app not to resolve them?
  640. [22:36:07] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> I wanted the photos to show up in my address book
  641. [22:36:27] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> when i download VCF files w/ the images URL encoded i get the photo in my address book
  642. [22:46:36] <tantek> you mean with the images binary encoded inline right?
  643. [22:48:16] <mfbot> [[robots-exclusion]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=robots-exclusion&diff=0&oldid=20835 * Tantek * (-1) [[en-US]]
  644. [22:48:32] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=20836 * Tantek * (+318) Apple Address Book clarifications. [[en-US]].
  645. [22:49:10] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i do
  646. [22:49:12] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> yes
  647. [22:49:38] <mfbot> [[glossary]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=glossary&diff=0&oldid=20837 * Tantek * (-1) [[en-US]]
  648. [22:49:49] <mfbot> [[rest/urls]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/urls&diff=0&oldid=20838 * Tantek * (-2) [[en-US]]
  649. [22:50:20] <mfbot> [[xoxo-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=20839 * Tantek * (-4) [[en-US]]
  650. [22:50:36] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=20840 * Tantek * (-1) [[en-US]]
  651. [22:51:12] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=20841 * Tantek * (-1) [[en-US]]
  652. [22:55:48] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-195-139.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  653. [22:55:48] <jibot> gsnedders is a mad teenager from Scotland who occasionally blogs at <http://geoffers.uni.cc/>
  654. [22:56:46] <tantek> factoryjoe, yes it is a bug in Apple Address Book
  655. [22:57:41] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-195-139.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Client Quit)
  656. [22:58:08] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ok
  657. [22:58:18] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> it would be nice if x2v did both
  658. [22:58:29] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> that is, contained the inline binary image and also linked to the source
  659. [22:58:50] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-195-139.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  660. [23:04:42] <tantek> providing the inline binary image would significantly increase the size of most .vcf files
  661. [23:04:52] <tantek> perhaps as an option
  662. [23:04:59] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i know
  663. [23:05:00] <tantek> so that a site owner could decide
  664. [23:05:14] <tantek> whether to bloat their add to address book download with the inline images or not
  665. [23:05:30] <tantek> but by default, the smallest valid vCards are what should be provided
  666. [23:05:30] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i prefer to bloat my address book
  667. [23:05:42] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> so that i can remember what people look like
  668. [23:05:59] <tantek> Oh I do too, but the URL should be sufficient for that.
  669. [23:06:24] <tantek> I wish my Address Book would *subscribe* to vcf files just as my iCalendar subscribes to ics files.
  670. [23:06:30] <tantek> s/files/URLs.
  671. [23:06:45] <tantek> seems like an obvious thing to implement.
  672. [23:06:55] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i agree with that
  673. [23:07:15] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i'm only suggesting that, until that bug is worked out, we provide a workaround for outdated but widely-deployed technology
  674. [23:07:37] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i mean, if people go to the work of adding the photo or logo classes, you're actually losing data in the transfer
  675. [23:07:48] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> (since there is no field in the address book for photo url)
  676. [23:07:58] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> what does the vcard spec say for the value of the photo field?
  677. [23:09:10] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> "A photo resource may either have a vcard:uri property whose value is the network location of the graphic, or a vcard:binary property whose value is the base64 encoded image data. Note that the actual base64 data is not passed through to XSL transformations for the sake of efficiency, but testing for the presence of 'rdf:RDF/fs:File/vcard:VCARD/vcard:PHOTO/vcard:binary' will properly reflect whether there is binary image data
  678. [23:09:11] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> from http://hypercontent.sourceforge.net/docs/manual/develop/vcard.html
  679. [23:13:48] <tantek> factoryjoe, best to go straight to the spec
  680. [23:13:51] <tantek> RFC 2426
  681. [23:14:00] <tantek> rather than someone else's documentation about the spec
  682. [23:14:58] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ** factoryjoe goes to look
  683. [23:15:17] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  684. [23:16:01] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> "The encoding MUST be reset to "b" using the ENCODING parameter in order to specify inline, encoded binary data. If the value is referenced by a URI"
  685. [23:16:22] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ...value, then the default encoding of 8bit is used and no explicit ENCODING parameter is needed."
  686. [23:17:04] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> Subject: Registration of text/directory MIME type PHOTO
  687. [23:17:05] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> <div>Subject: Registration of text/directory MIME type PHOTO</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Type name: PHOTO</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Type purpose: To specify an image or photograph information that annotates some aspect of the object the vCard represents.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Type encoding: The encoding MUST be reset to "b" using
  688. [23:21:21] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  689. [23:21:59] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=20842 * Tantek * (+944) fix up headings for better permalinkability, scope to product/app, remove status
  690. [23:22:25] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=20843 * Tantek * (+0)
  691. [23:22:47] <tantek> factoryjoe: note: http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#AAB_PHOTO
  692. [23:23:01] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ok
  693. [23:23:11] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ok
  694. [23:28:17] <tantek> if you discover any other limitations or bugs in Apple Address Book with regards to vCard import (or export for that matter), please add to that page
  695. [23:28:58] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ok
  696. [23:28:59] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> sounds good
  697. [23:29:09] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> tantek
  698. [23:29:19] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> you might not like this necessarily
  699. [23:29:23] <tantek> btw - from a user perspective, I agree with you, I like photos in my address book too.
  700. [23:29:41] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ok, i'm glad you agree
  701. [23:29:51] <tantek> Apple really ought to just be using webkit to render such photos however
  702. [23:29:52] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> though i agree w/ the URI instead of BINARY principle
  703. [23:29:57] <tantek> so that if they have a URL
  704. [23:30:02] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> yes
  705. [23:30:07] <tantek> they can just synthesize a <img src="URL" />
  706. [23:30:13] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> yeah it's the latest
  707. [23:30:24] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> there are reasons why i really support that
  708. [23:30:25] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> but oh well for now
  709. [23:30:35] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> so, i've set up a bridge from the #microformats channel into Pibb
  710. [23:30:45] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> http://pibb.com/go/microformats
  711. [23:31:05] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i was wondering what you thought about embedding pibb into the microformats.org site... and offering a chat tab
  712. [23:31:15] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> like i've done on the citizen space site: http://citizenspace.us/chat
  713. [23:31:23] <tantek> and then when they sync it to another machine (iPod, iPhone, BlackBerry etc.) they can downsample the image to whatever small size works best on those devices so as to not bloat the space on those devices. but that downsampling is best done at the last minute, by Apple Address Book, instead of upfront by a web service like X2V
  714. [23:31:26] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> basically it would give a read-only view into the IRC channel making it more transparent
  715. [23:31:37] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> +`
  716. [23:31:38] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> +1
  717. [23:31:49] <tantek> factoryjoe, we already have that via an Atom feed of the IRC channel
  718. [23:32:26] * tantek points factoryjoe to the /topic
  719. [23:32:54] <tantek> that way you can have a read-only view of the IRC channel in whatever aggregator or feed client you want
  720. [23:33:44] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i'm talking about a live feed
  721. [23:33:54] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> where if you log in, you can participate
  722. [23:34:04] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> there is no two-way atom support currently
  723. [23:34:14] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> if you login to pibb, you can participate in the channel using only a web browser
  724. [23:35:18] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> tantek, take a look: http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/1288679261/
  725. [23:35:40] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> that's the interface i'm talking to you in... it could be embedded into microformats.org, making it easier for others to join in these discussions
  726. [23:36:08] <tantek> surreal
  727. [23:36:22] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ;)
  728. [23:36:33] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i worked hard to get pibb to setup a bridge to IRC for just this purpose
  729. [23:36:44] <tantek> how does it defend against bots?
  730. [23:36:54] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> it's powered by Google Web Toolkit, so it's pretty solid
  731. [23:36:55] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> against bots?
  732. [23:37:04] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> it's one way
  733. [23:37:05] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i have to request these bridges to be set up
  734. [23:37:14] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> it's one at a time i mean
  735. [23:37:36] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> i can create unlimited channels in pibb (which requires you to have an OpenID)
  736. [23:37:38] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> but i have to request the bridges to IRC to be setup
  737. [23:37:46] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> from a Pibb admin
  738. [23:41:30] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-195-139.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  739. [23:43:07] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=20844 * Tantek * (+912) added General Suggestions section
  740. [23:43:13] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-201ad0b9c69f0cac) has joined #microformats
  741. [23:43:13] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & also in every time zone ever created, for KevinMarks is everpresent & the Podfather
  742. [23:45:58] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=20845 * Tantek * (+582) added photo downsampling suggestion
  743. [23:46:40] <tantek> factoryjoe, PIBB sounds like an interesting suggestion for the site, perhaps add your proposal to: http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#Admins
  744. [23:46:55] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> ok
  745. [23:51:29] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=20846 * Chris Messina * (+617) added suggestion for pibb integration into website
  746. [23:51:40] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> done
  747. [23:54:03] <tantek> thanks factoryjoe. could you also add your 'citizens' page to: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild
  748. [23:54:49] <tantek> noting in particular the presence of the nickname in the middle of the fn, and thus a desire to be able to imply fn from n per: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Implied_FN_from_N
  749. [23:55:03] * iSimo (n=chatzill@host159-175-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  750. [23:55:42] <pibb-microformat> <factoryjoe> sure

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