IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-11-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:17:48] <csarven> answer to this might be obvious but i was wondering if a person needs to have more then one hCard?
  2. [00:18:31] <kingryan> csarven: what's wrong with having more than one hcard for a person/
  3. [00:18:32] <kingryan> ?
  4. [00:18:45] <hober> e.g., each position you've held in an hResume is an hCard
  5. [00:19:29] <csarven> nothing. i suppose its useful to indicate where in one case you are director of IT and in another you are the coach of a soccer team
  6. [00:20:09] <csarven> in the case of hResume though (which got me thinking due to the include-pattern), wouldn't the older hCards well.. be considerd outdated?
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  9. [00:28:19] <tantek> csarven, yes they would
  10. [00:28:56] <tantek> people have multiple personas IRL, business/professional, personal, etc., and even sometimes have multiple physical business cards. thus in those cases in makes sense to have multiple *current* hCards.
  11. [00:29:14] <tantek> always good to look for such real world examples
  12. [00:29:26] <csarven> indeed
  13. [00:30:11] <csarven> what about an experience from 10 years back?
  14. [00:31:17] <tantek> that probably makes the most sense in the context of an hCard
  15. [00:31:20] <csarven> i realize that it is not a big issue just that there are many hCards flying around and I just hope that it is not confusing for the 3rd party user to figure out which one they should rather import into their addressbook
  16. [00:31:24] <tantek> er, hResume
  17. [00:31:51] <tantek> s/hCards/sets of contact info and you have the real world
  18. [00:34:09] <csarven> (re: include-pattern with hCards) bunch of things i would like to checkout actually: 1. what would happen if there is an overlap of information where the init hCard contains the org/title lets say and the second instance where the parser is trying to merge the two hCards
  19. [00:34:27] <tantek> contact info merging is an old problem
  20. [00:34:35] <tantek> essentially, it's independent of microformats
  21. [00:34:49] <tantek> not saying it's not a problem, it's just not something that we can necessarily solve
  22. [00:34:57] <csarven> i see
  23. [00:35:01] <tantek> of course, perhaps with good use of the hCard "rev" attribute, some merging scenarios are made easier
  24. [00:35:14] <tantek> even Apple Address book goofs all the time when merging vCards for me
  25. [00:36:41] <tantek> there are more difficult cases too
  26. [00:36:54] <tantek> like two vCards for the same person, two different email addresses
  27. [00:37:01] <tantek> what should happen upon importing both?
  28. [00:37:49] <csarven> how is that different then any other bit? (i.e. org, title..)
  29. [00:37:53] <tantek> Apple Address Book replaces one with the other (latest wins), but far more often, *both* email addresses are valid, and should be kept (given the real world example of a professional business card with a work email address and a personal business card with a personal email address)
  30. [00:38:02] <tantek> it is different in terms of real world practice
  31. [00:38:10] <tantek> each has its own semantic
  32. [00:38:14] <tantek> and usage patterns
  33. [00:38:17] <csarven> agreed (both should be kept)
  34. [00:38:35] <tantek> thus there may be property-dependent merging rules that make more sense than trying to merge/sync "blindly"
  35. [00:39:03] <csarven> you went into my second question.. 2. how would a user know which hCard is most up to date (perhaps this is not particularly a microformat problem either)
  36. [00:39:17] <tantek> parts of each may be more up to date
  37. [00:39:37] <tantek> and sometimes you want to keep both sets of info (as above email example illustrated)
  38. [00:40:36] <csarven> just to make the example complex here: say only 'title' differs between two hCards where one of them is no longer true (e.g. change of job/position)
  39. [00:46:15] <tantek> then hopefully you can use the "rev" attribute to determine which is newer
  40. [00:46:21] <tantek> property
  41. [00:46:40] <kingryan> csarven: or one of them is just wrong
  42. [00:46:49] <tantek> and yes, that's exactly the way to go about solving these problems, by looking at real world situs like "change of job/position"
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  44. [00:58:29] <csarven> not sure how rev could solve this (assigning a timestamp on "title" in the same element?) but will checkup later. please respond if you have a quick answer/resource for this. i will check the channel logs. gotta run now :(
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  59. [03:45:27] <tantek> rev assigns a timestamp to the whole hCard
  60. [03:45:39] <tantek> so if you had two hCards that were identical except for rev and title
  61. [03:45:49] <tantek> then you could likely conclude that the newer rev had the more correct title
  62. [03:46:02] <tantek> re: csarven as of around 5pm PST
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  71. [05:00:13] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=23204 * Tantek * (+335) add page for W3C Tech Plenary Day
  72. [05:05:14] <mfbot> [[events-template]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-template&diff=0&oldid=23205 * Tantek * (+6) move TOC up and use TOC-right template
  73. [05:09:00] <mfbot> [[events/2007-11-07-w3c-tech-plenary]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-11-07-w3c-tech-plenary * Tantek * (+1737) drafted
  74. [05:29:20] <mfbot> [[faaq]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/faaq * Tantek * (+17)
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  84. [06:19:58] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=23206 * WalterStevenson * (+106) Drafts -
  85. [06:20:53] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=23207 * WalterStevenson * (+6) Drafts -
  86. [06:22:59] <mfbot> [[htask]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/htask * WalterStevenson * (+300) An extensible HTML format for creating/storing/sharing project TASKS
  87. [06:23:45] <mfbot> [[htask]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=htask&diff=0&oldid=23208 * WalterStevenson * (-23)
  88. [06:25:01] <mfbot> [[htask]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=htask&diff=0&oldid=23209 * WalterStevenson * (+53)
  89. [06:26:42] <mfbot> [[htask]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=htask&diff=0&oldid=23210 * WalterStevenson * (+111)
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  112. [08:47:53] <mfbot> [[User:MarkRickerby]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:MarkRickerby&diff=0&oldid=23211 * Af8Xct * (+13622)
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  117. [09:11:22] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Af8Xct" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  118. [09:12:17] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=23212 * Tantek * (-112) Reverted edit of WalterStevenson, changed back to last version by Tantek
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  120. [09:18:28] <mfbot> [[exploratory-discussions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=exploratory-discussions&diff=0&oldid=23213 * Tantek * (+79) noted premature (and not unsurprisingly redundant) pages hToDo, hTask
  121. [09:18:59] <mfbot> [[htodo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=htodo&diff=0&oldid=23214 * Tantek * (+292) violates process in many ways, please read [[process]], join microformats-new
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  124. [09:20:46] <mfbot> [[User:MarkRickerby]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:MarkRickerby&diff=0&oldid=23216 * Tantek * (-13622) Reverted edit of Af8Xct, changed back to last version by Tantek
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  136. [10:22:03] <mfbot> [[events/2007-11-07-w3c-tech-plenary]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-11-07-w3c-tech-plenary&diff=0&oldid=23217 * Tantek * (+79) added Upcoming RSVP
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  143. [11:58:41] <mfbot> [[events/2007-11-07-w3c-tech-plenary]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-11-07-w3c-tech-plenary&diff=0&oldid=23218 * Tantek * (+107) added SF remote participation in W3C Tech Plenary blog post
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  177. [15:38:11] <mfbot> [[events/2007-11-07-w3c-tech-plenary]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-11-07-w3c-tech-plenary&diff=0&oldid=23219 * Tantek * (+256)
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  181. [15:50:19] <Bug2000> Command: /msg Hello world! -- Result: <Bill> Hello world! --> This is wrong. It would message Hello. As I am not going to register to the wiki, update it. Change it to /say or to /msg #microformats
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  209. [19:38:48] <mfbot> [[xmdp-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-issues&diff=0&oldid=23220 * Tantek * (+65) heading, toc editorial, add new issues to end.
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  213. [19:47:03] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=23221 * Tantek * (+4)
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  219. [19:58:19] <mfbot> [[microformats-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=microformats-issues&diff=0&oldid=23222 * Tantek * (+1110) added Closed and Resolved issues sections, moved a few issues around accordingly
  220. [20:01:06] <mfbot> [[xmdp-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-issues&diff=0&oldid=23223 * Tantek * (-340) added Closed and Resolved issues sections, moved issues around accordingly
  221. [20:08:41] <mfbot> [[include-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=23224 * PaulWilkins * (-10) Hyperlink example -
  222. [20:09:32] <mfbot> [[include-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=23225 * PaulWilkins * (-7) Hyperlink example -
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  224. [20:28:33] <mfbot> [[include-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=23226 * Tantek * (+17) Reverted edit of PaulWilkins, changed back to last version by Tantek
  225. [20:30:43] <BenWard> tantek et al: I'm going to talk with the accessibility experts at work tomorrow to get concrete backing behind the Hyperlink inner-text issue. Quickly though, can anyone explain why having title="" on an empty anchor helps? What does that do?
  226. [20:30:54] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=23227 * ShadowWalker * (+171) add an exemple -
  227. [20:33:35] <mfbot> [[include-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=23228 * Tantek * (+425) prev revert was to undo change to example that didn't reflect actual requirements for the include-pattern. added clarification in background section and Hyperlink example
  228. [20:34:17] <tantek> BenWard, see Joe Clark's explanation cited in the document.
  229. [20:34:24] <tantek> apparently lacking inline text, accessibility technologies use the title attribute
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  231. [20:34:33] <tantek> thus it appears to be sufficient
  232. [20:34:54] <tantek> in addition, by hiding such links with display:none, they are skipped by the tab order
  233. [20:34:57] <tantek> also noted in the document
  234. [20:35:58] <tantek> BenWard, be sure to question them specifically about *which* specific *versions* of *which* accessibility technologies have *what* specific problems.
  235. [20:36:19] <BenWard> Yeah, that's the information I'm keen to get
  236. [20:36:24] <tantek> If they can't give you that information then they are not "accessbility experts", they are merely "accessibility dogmatists" that are parroting what they have heard elsewhere.
  237. [20:36:54] <tantek> of course they're likely to get angry when challenged like that, but that's common response to challenging religion.
  238. [20:37:44] <BenWard> Indeed. I'm confident that the accessibility experts within Yahoo's team are just that, though. Hence asking them :-)
  239. [20:38:15] <BenWard> (just that meaning, ‘actually are experts’, rather than the other thing)
  240. [20:39:00] <BenWard> Anyway, looks like the update include-pattern page is staying robust. Any particularly reason for losing the capital letters on headings though? Or is that a MediaWiki problem?
  241. [20:39:11] <tantek> We need to make it clear that the *whole point* of the include-pattern is to NOT duplicate content
  242. [20:39:33] <tantek> thus duplicating the content inside of an <a class="include" href="..."> *completely* misses the point
  243. [20:39:42] <tantek> I tried to add this to the background section a bit
  244. [20:39:44] <tantek> and to the example
  245. [20:39:48] <tantek> with my most recent edit
  246. [20:39:49] <BenWard> yeah, I saw.
  247. [20:39:53] <tantek> where I had to revert Paul's edits
  248. [20:41:16] <mfbot> [[xmdp-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-issues&diff=0&oldid=23229 * Tantek * (+248) collected URL to issues raised by David Orchard in his blog post, note need to extract them.
  249. [20:42:33] <BenWard> I think the point is that it doesn't have to duplicate *all* the content. Just needs to display some contextually relevant text which *may* duplicate some summarising part of the content being included. You may include an entire hcard with org, urls, email addresses and so on using the include-pattern, but just include the name in the inner-text.
  250. [20:42:33] <BenWard> Anyway, get clarification and certainty on the empty-anchor issue first, and then work out the example if it needs changing again.
  251. [20:42:43] <BenWard> Will try to update on that tomorrow
  252. [20:45:29] <tantek> Ben, no we can't duplicate the name
  253. [20:45:39] <tantek> that's the *specific* case we were solving for with hResume
  254. [20:45:53] <BenWard> Ah, I see.
  255. [20:46:00] <tantek> in hResume, it has a bunch of hCards for the same person, one per job, with different orgs, titles, but the same name
  256. [20:46:08] <BenWard> With you./
  257. [20:46:09] <tantek> but resumes DO NOT repeat people's names all over the place
  258. [20:46:22] <tantek> hence it is a *requirement* to NOT have *any* portion of the person's name repeated
  259. [20:46:44] <tantek> the title attribute solution avoids the visible repeat
  260. [20:47:11] <mfbot> [[xmdp-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-issues&diff=0&oldid=23230 * Tantek * (+172) added need for explicit [[xmdp-parsing]] explanation.
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