IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-11-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:17:26] * Neo (n=Neo@85-210-31-50.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  9. [01:11:17] <tantek_> bengold check out the hCard creator
  10. [01:17:17] <bengold> had bad results
  11. [01:17:19] <bengold> ugly
  12. [01:17:46] <tantek_> you can always apply a style sheet to make it look however you want
  13. [01:17:57] <bengold> true
  14. [01:20:22] <bengold> someone needs to make a plugin for address book
  15. [01:22:57] * tantek (n=tantek@99-203-152-169.area2.spcsdns.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  16. [01:23:08] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
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  18. [01:23:21] <tantek> what would such a plugin for the address book do?
  19. [01:25:21] <bengold> allow you to export a plain text file that has the correct hcard code for anyone of your contacts... but I suppose you would only use it once
  20. [01:25:27] <bengold> a website might be better
  21. [01:25:42] <tantek> indeed, exporting hCards from address books would be a good thing
  22. [01:27:04] <bengold> http://badlyworded.com/contact/ it worked ok, however it thinks my AIM name is a website :P
  23. [01:28:30] <tantek> what thinks that?
  24. [01:28:46] <bengold> address book on the mac
  25. [01:31:14] <bengold> However now I can add myself thanks to the safari microformats plugin!
  26. [01:41:01] <bengold> Well howdy
  27. [01:57:20] * illustir (n=alper@s55912056.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ()
  28. [02:06:55] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ()
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  30. [02:41:18] <tantek> bengold that sounds like a bug in the address book on the mac - it doesn't properly support aim: URLs
  31. [02:41:34] <tantek> what version of Address Book are you running?
  32. [02:45:59] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-145-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  33. [02:46:09] <bengold> 4.1
  34. [02:49:50] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.9/2007102514]")
  35. [02:53:07] <bengold> the latest
  36. [02:55:45] <bengold> tantek this is the longest conversation ever :P
  37. [03:39:44] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=23492 * Tantek * (+303) noted Apple Address Book problem with aim: URLs, and that ONE URL property restriction was only in v3.0 and below, verified works fine in v4.0+.
  38. [03:40:20] <tantek> bengold, I've captured your problem report here: http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#AAB_URL
  39. [03:40:31] <tantek> I've also verified the problem in AB v4.0.4
  40. [03:40:58] <tantek> feel free to add more problem reports with Address Book handling of vCard/hCard to that page.
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  45. [06:16:32] <mfbot> [[how-to-play-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play-fr&diff=0&oldid=23493 * ChristopheDucamp * (+560) sync'd
  46. [06:18:28] <mfbot> [[how-to-play-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play-fr&diff=0&oldid=23494 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) sync'd
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  51. [07:09:08] <mfbot> [[block-list-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=block-list-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=23495 * ChristopheDucamp * (+4564) sync'd
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  53. [07:10:19] <mfbot> [[ignore-list-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/ignore-list-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+27) #redirect [[block-list-fr]]
  54. [07:13:03] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=23496 * ChristopheDucamp * (+111) Open Source - sync'd
  55. [07:14:09] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=23497 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Open Source -
  56. [07:15:59] * vant (n=vant@p4191-ipbf3104marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #microformats
  57. [07:16:00] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=23498 * ChristopheDucamp * (+13) Soyez agréable - sync'd
  58. [07:20:17] <mfbot> [[admins-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/admins-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1249) création
  59. [07:20:43] <mfbot> [[admins-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=admins-fr&diff=0&oldid=23499 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) typo
  60. [07:31:02] * bengold (n=ben@c-66-31-157-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit ()
  61. [07:33:15] <mfbot> [[Talk:cite-rel]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:cite-rel * OmqSsc * (+8326)
  62. [07:37:31] <mfbot> [[governance-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-fr&diff=0&oldid=23500 * ChristopheDucamp * (+270) [fr: synchro et ajout "point de contact" en français]
  63. [07:38:02] <mfbot> [[governance-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-fr&diff=0&oldid=23501 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) typo
  64. [07:38:23] <mfbot> [[misconceptions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=misconceptions&diff=0&oldid=23502 * Tantek * (+2281) added schema would improve interoperability of microformats misconception and schema incompleteness problem
  65. [07:38:54] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) blocked "User:OmqSsc" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  66. [07:39:20] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) deleted "Talk:cite-rel": spam
  67. [07:42:06] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:OmqSsc" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
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  69. [07:47:27] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:UniRgq" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  70. [07:50:53] <mfbot> [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr&diff=0&oldid=23503 * ChristopheDucamp * (+674) sync'd
  71. [07:55:24] <mfbot> [[hcard-creator-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-creator-feedback&diff=0&oldid=23504 * Tantek * (+521) followed up on suggested tweak for Jabber only (i.e. not real world), and move out-of-hCard-scope feature requests to a rejected section
  72. [07:57:45] <mfbot> [[principles-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=principles-fr&diff=0&oldid=23505 * ChristopheDucamp * (+13) link on "réutiliser"
  73. [08:06:32] <mfbot> [[reuse-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/reuse-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1578) translated from english source
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  77. [09:02:10] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=23506 * Tantek * (-1)
  78. [09:03:26] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=23507 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2299) sync'd
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  80. [09:10:43] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=23508 * ChristopheDucamp * (-3) programmes de conférence - typo
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  82. [09:34:46] <mfbot> [[user-interface-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface-fr&diff=0&oldid=23509 * ChristopheDucamp * (+508) sync in progress
  83. [09:36:32] <mfbot> [[user-interface-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface-fr&diff=0&oldid=23510 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2) [fr : lowercase pattern]
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  86. [09:47:33] <mfbot> [[user-interface-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface-fr&diff=0&oldid=23511 * ChristopheDucamp * (-365) [fr: sync'd on english original version]
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  92. [10:18:50] <mfbot> [[why-using-existing-matters-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/why-using-existing-matters-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+4219) [fr: first draft translation]
  93. [10:19:36] <mfbot> [[why-using-existing-matters-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=why-using-existing-matters-fr&diff=0&oldid=23512 * ChristopheDucamp * (+6) [fr: grammar]
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  95. [10:29:43] <mfbot> [[process-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=process-fr&diff=0&oldid=23513 * ChristopheDucamp * (+328) sync'd
  96. [10:30:24] <mfbot> [[why-using-existing-microformats-matters-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/why-using-existing-microformats-matters-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+43) #redirect [[why-using-existing-matters-fr]]
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  98. [10:36:10] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=23514 * ChristopheDucamp * (+351) CAB URL - sync'd with english version
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  101. [10:49:21] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=23515 * ChristopheDucamp * (+618) [fr: suggestion to organize a french workshop about social-network-portability with french openid guys]
  102. [10:49:52] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=23516 * ChristopheDucamp * (+22) En cours -
  103. [10:50:13] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=23517 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) En cours - typo
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  113. [12:07:35] <userabc123abc> auslandssemester studium im ausland http://www.globmunity.com/ semester ausland
  114. [12:11:36] <mfbot> [[figure-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=figure-examples&diff=0&oldid=23518 * MatthiasWillerich * (+92) Added Content with Style article
  115. [12:16:58] <userabc123abc> auswandern blog http://www.globmunity.com/ leben im ausland
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  120. [12:45:36] * InsomniaCity (n=insomnia@raptor.ukc.ac.uk) has joined #microformats
  121. [12:46:36] <InsomniaCity> Is: <span class="tel"><span class="type">work</span>+1-727-231-0101</span> valid hCard?
  122. [12:47:03] <InsomniaCity> I have a feeling it is, but this parser I have barfs on it, and produces a tel value of work+1-727-231-0101
  123. [12:49:46] <chmod007> wrap the phone number in <span class="value">
  124. [12:50:06] <InsomniaCity> of course - but I'm wondering whether its valid hCard
  125. [12:50:19] <InsomniaCity> I'm into consuming hCards, not producing them
  126. [12:50:43] <chmod007> it’s not valid, as far as I can tell.
  127. [12:51:08] <InsomniaCity> well - its the example hCard in the spec
  128. [12:51:22] <InsomniaCity> which I happened to use for testing, and my parser barfed
  129. [12:51:58] <chmod007> I saw this example <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Value_excerpting>
  130. [12:52:37] <chmod007> ah, now I see the one you’re talking about
  131. [12:52:40] <InsomniaCity> does that imply the example hCard in the spec is wrong then?
  132. [12:54:22] <chmod007> it’s pretty pathetic that one can’t tell for sure from the standard…
  133. [12:54:30] <InsomniaCity> yup
  134. [12:56:11] <chmod007> from <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#parsing_hCard_properties_and_values>, it depends on the definition of “the contents of the element”
  135. [12:57:36] <InsomniaCity> uggh
  136. [12:58:25] <InsomniaCity> tel** (type, value)
  137. [12:58:36] <InsomniaCity> so type is integral, so the example is wrong.
  138. [12:58:40] <chmod007> ISSUE 2 in that same document, suggests that the full text contents should be used.
  139. [12:58:55] <chmod007> “
  140. [12:58:57] <chmod007> <span class="tel">+1.123.456.7890 <abbr class="type" title="work">(work)</abbr></span>
  141. [12:58:57] <chmod007> would be represented in vCard as:
  142. [12:58:57] <chmod007> TEL;TYPE=work:+123.456.7890 (work)
  143. [12:58:57] <chmod007> ”
  144. [13:00:17] <chmod007> but it looks that that example has a typo (ommission of one “1” in the vcard representation), so I don’t know how authoritative that would be either :)
  145. [13:00:27] <chmod007> anyway, it says: “If one or more child elements with the class name of "value" are present inside the element for a property, then concatenate the node values of those child elements (in the order found) and use that as the value of the property. This would be before using the node value of the element for a property itself.”
  146. [13:00:51] <chmod007> node values would include attribute values. sigh.
  147. [13:01:16] <InsomniaCity> damn, this is a mess
  148. [13:03:16] <chmod007> looks like there’s an answer here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues
  149. [13:03:18] * Naflol (i=sdei@gateway/tor/x-6093957321145710) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  150. [13:04:50] <chmod007> hm, or not, but you should bring it up there
  151. [13:04:59] <InsomniaCity> uggh
  152. [13:09:03] <InsomniaCity> chmod007: none of the issues raised since the end of January have an sort of reply
  153. [13:09:06] <InsomniaCity> *any
  154. [13:09:25] <chmod007> I noticed that :-).
  155. [13:09:54] <InsomniaCity> is hCard dead or something?
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  163. [16:05:33] <mfbot> [[figure-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=figure-examples&diff=0&oldid=23519 * MatthiasWillerich * (+1076) Added Content with Style example code
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  165. [16:43:10] <mfbot> [[User:Evan]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Evan&diff=0&oldid=23520 * Csarven * (-14493) removed spam
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  172. [17:46:01] <Metcalf> is anyone working on the citation microformat?
  173. [17:53:40] <tantek> InsomniaCity, still there? let's see if we can resolve the tel/type/value issue you raised.
  174. [17:54:13] <InsomniaCity> I am
  175. [17:59:39] <InsomniaCity> tantek: not sure there's much to resolve either way though - it just needs a definitive statement as to whether child text is considered the value when they have sibling class=type elements
  176. [18:00:27] <InsomniaCity> both tails and operator prepend the type text to the phone number, indicating that they are ignoring the structure
  177. [18:01:00] <tantek> in short, class=type children are not considered part of the value
  178. [18:01:30] <tantek> tails has not been maintained for a while, so it very well might have bugs like that
  179. [18:01:44] <tantek> with operator though I am a bit surprised
  180. [18:02:31] <tantek> as a parser developer, are you on the microformats-dev list btw?
  181. [18:02:32] <InsomniaCity> OK, so is the remaining text child considered the value then?
  182. [18:02:35] <tantek> yes
  183. [18:02:50] <tantek> let me track down where it says that, i tried to scroll up and read through your comments above.
  184. [18:03:03] <InsomniaCity> ok, I'll let you do that while I explain a little
  185. [18:03:35] <InsomniaCity> I'm not really a parser developer per se - I'm plugging together the Alexa hCard parser and Funambol/Sync4j in order to sync, and to keep updated, hCard data to your mobile phone
  186. [18:04:33] <InsomniaCity> so the idea is that you run an Operator script on an hCard (later hCalendar too), which submits it to the DB, then you run the SyncML client on your phone.
  187. [18:04:49] <tantek> I expected I would have written that down in hcard-parsing, which, from just re-reading the section, it doesn't say that, which I'm disappointed by. I'll have to fix that.
  188. [18:06:08] * bengold (n=ben@c-66-31-157-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has left #microformats
  189. [18:06:33] <tantek> Neither does it state it in http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#type_subproperty_values
  190. [18:07:00] <InsomniaCity> Indeed. Yet somehow, the edge case crept into the sample hCard :)
  191. [18:07:12] <tantek> ok I will fix it in both those places, good catch.
  192. [18:07:35] <InsomniaCity> Doesn't that make class="value" kind of superfluous then?
  193. [18:07:41] <tantek> Frankly, I don't even know when that sample hCard got added. I will need to track it down
  194. [18:07:45] <tantek> not quite
  195. [18:07:58] <tantek> e.g. work: +1-415-555-1212
  196. [18:08:06] <tantek> you don't want the ":" in either the type or the valiue
  197. [18:08:09] <tantek> value
  198. [18:08:18] <InsomniaCity> ah yes
  199. [18:10:50] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Vi8Fq4" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  200. [18:18:26] <tantek> InsomniaCity, clearly whoever added the live example didn't test it with operator. ;)
  201. [18:18:42] * danja (n=danja@host53-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  202. [18:19:22] * danja (n=danja@host53-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  204. [18:24:07] <tantek> ironically, the Wikimedia foundation is also moving (has moved)
  205. [18:24:30] <tantek> I'm going to change the example to Commercenet who helped with sponsoring and founding of microformats.org
  206. [18:29:10] <glennjones> Hi all if anyones interested http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract/ my first full blown uf parser, with a few extra twists for portable social networks.
  207. [18:31:19] <tantek> hi glenn!
  208. [18:34:14] <glennjones> Hi tantek, my first time on IRC, thought I would start come hang out
  209. [18:35:50] <tantek> it's a good place to hang out
  210. [18:36:07] <tantek> i'm fixing a bug in hCard as we speak, raised by InsomniaCity
  211. [18:37:34] <tantek> InsomniaCity, did you try X2V on the live example?
  212. [18:38:12] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=23521 * Tantek * (+568) type subproperty values - added details about handling a property with type but without explicit value. problem noticed by InsomniaCity on IRC.
  213. [18:39:54] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  214. [18:40:49] * Metcalf (n=John@217.171.129.65) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  215. [18:41:43] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=23522 * Tantek * (+5) toc right
  216. [18:48:08] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  217. [18:52:25] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=23523 * Tantek * (+310) Value excerpting - added detail about subtype specified with no descendant of the property element with class name "value"
  218. [18:52:50] <tantek> InsomniaCity, there that should fix both hCard and hCard-parsing.
  219. [18:52:56] <tantek> now to the live example...
  220. [18:56:27] <tantek> glennjones, does your parser implement representative hCard discovery? http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard
  221. [18:56:56] * PibbRelay (i=supybot@nat/janrain/x-3ca8c96a1e3bb677) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
  222. [18:57:19] * PibbRelay (i=supybot@nat/janrain/x-08f28dfde19042ed) has joined #microformats
  223. [19:02:48] <glennjones> tantek This is one does not, but I have a full blown spider which does. I am hope with everyone's help to define some rules
  224. [19:03:10] <tantek> did you have a read of the above page and subpages?
  225. [19:03:53] <tantek> Ryan King, Jeremy Keith and I did a bunch of research, documentation, brainstorming and believe there is a solid proposal there representative hCard publishing and parsing.
  226. [19:04:47] * WilleRaab (i=WilleRaa@89-253-85-3.customers.ownit.se) Quit ()
  227. [19:07:26] <glennjones> No I had not come across these pages, its just what I need. I will read them carefully and see if I can code a rule set from them
  228. [19:07:29] * OoS (n=John@217.171.129.65) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  229. [19:08:48] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  230. [19:08:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  231. [19:09:11] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  232. [19:11:37] <glennjones> check out this portable social network profile spider http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract-psn/
  233. [19:12:38] <glennjones> All it really needs is the addition of marking the representative hCard, I will start working on it now
  234. [19:13:39] <tantek> indeed, in many conversations with folks like Ted Grubb of Satisfaction, it became apparent that the notion of a "representative" hCard for a profile page was a key missing piece of social network portability
  235. [19:13:49] <tantek> hence the through writeup at that URL
  236. [19:14:51] <tantek> At the last portable social networks meetup Ted Grubb noted that he is working on implementing the representative hCard parsing so that GetSatisfaction.com's hCard profile import/subscribe would work better.
  237. [19:15:23] <tantek> At the very same meeting Leah Culver of Pownce made a very small tweak to Pownce.com profiles to implement representative hCard publishing (using url+uid).
  238. [19:17:39] <glennjones> There's lots going on, wonder if I could swap notes with these guys.
  239. [19:25:02] * briansuda (n=briansud@157-157-104-103.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is) has joined #microformats
  240. [19:25:02] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  241. [19:35:53] <InsomniaCity> tantek: by "the remainder... of the property element", does that imply a concatenation of the siblings before and after?
  242. [19:37:09] <tantek> glennjones, i'm doing my best to at least take notes and put them on the event pages on the wiki whenever I'm at any such events. I have a few more notes to put up on the most recent one.
  243. [19:37:12] <tantek> InsomniaCity, yes.
  244. [19:43:07] <InsomniaCity> tantek: also, does my project sound even remotely interesting?
  245. [19:43:29] <tantek> absolutely. the fewer steps it can take to move your data around, the better.
  246. [19:43:50] <tantek> it's very much in spirit with what a lot of microformats is trying to accomplish
  247. [19:43:58] <tantek> more convenience and efficiency for the user
  248. [19:45:08] <InsomniaCity> the only problems I'm running into are real-world stuff
  249. [19:45:18] <InsomniaCity> for example, phones don't seem to like brackets in phone numbers etc
  250. [19:48:14] <briansuda> hm, if there is no VALUE then EVERYTHING gets concatenated, and things like WORK: 123.456.7890 will become ": 1234567890", extra text will be pulled in as well, do people understand and expect this
  251. [19:56:03] * glennjones (n=glennjon@spc2-brig3-0-0-cust624.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) has left #microformats
  252. [20:03:31] <tantek> briansuda, that's a good question
  253. [20:03:46] <briansuda> i have it working locally doing exactly this
  254. [20:03:50] <tantek> and a good reason to encourage people to use explicit "value" markup whenever a subtype is problem
  255. [20:04:02] <tantek> whenever a subtype is used
  256. [20:04:17] <briansuda> basically it looks at every node that is a child of (TEL, EMAIL, ADR, ...) and if it is NOT a decendant of class="type" it is used
  257. [20:04:25] <briansuda> correct
  258. [20:04:49] <briansuda> if there is no VALUE stated, be on the look out for what you get
  259. [20:05:01] <briansuda> if it is NOT what you wanted, then use VALUE explicitly
  260. [20:05:35] <briansuda> the other sneaky issue is collapsing white-space? do you or not?
  261. [20:05:58] <briansuda> i am assuming we are plucking the exact text that was inside the TYPE and deleting that
  262. [20:06:16] <briansuda> so if i had "abc[space](some type value)[space]xyz"
  263. [20:06:30] <briansuda> that would be "abc[space][space]xyz"
  264. [20:06:36] <briansuda> that is how it is coded now
  265. [20:07:06] <briansuda> with concatenating VALUE we do not add or remove spaces, so removing TYPE should probably work the same way
  266. [20:07:09] <tantek> yes that makes sense
  267. [20:07:11] <tantek> it is the most "predictable"
  268. [20:07:14] <tantek> agreed
  269. [20:08:18] <briansuda> ADR isn't really an issue, because that has structured children anyway
  270. [20:08:30] <briansuda> so TEL and EMAIL are really the only candidated
  271. [20:08:35] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=23524 * Tantek * (+307) add hCard markup to editor/authors, update affiliations per W3C style guide and to be up to date, rm org from Sample vCard as it was out of date, use Commercenet instead of Wikimedia (they are moving)
  272. [20:09:08] <briansuda> if the is an example URLs in the wild, then please post them so i can test further
  273. [20:09:10] <tantek> briansuda, at least for hCard, yes, that appears to be correct
  274. [20:09:40] <tantek> well the hCard spec *was* an example (though perhaps not in the "wild" as it were) until my last edit above
  275. [20:09:43] <briansuda> well, all the MFs use the same extraction library, so all the others get this for free
  276. [20:10:02] <briansuda> yeah, i am looking for on in HTML to see if the code works correctly
  277. [20:10:21] <tantek> I can modify the hCard example easily enough
  278. [20:10:22] * briansuda pokes InsomniaCity for an example
  279. [20:10:36] <briansuda> i modified my hCard and it seemed to work
  280. [20:11:32] <InsomniaCity> briansuda: I don't have one, I just pointed my parser at the hCard spec for the sample one
  281. [20:11:35] <InsomniaCity> thats when it barfed
  282. [20:11:49] <briansuda> sure, that isn't in HTML
  283. [20:13:34] <tantek> (editing now)
  284. [20:16:36] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=23525 * Tantek * (-143) fix editor/author hCard, use type with unspecified value in live example
  285. [20:20:14] <InsomniaCity> briansuda: how do you mean it isn't in HTML?
  286. [20:20:31] <InsomniaCity> out of interest - do you guys know about the Alexa parser?
  287. [20:22:00] <briansuda> <pre>
  288. [20:22:01] <briansuda> &lt;span class=&quot;tel&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;type&quot;&gt;Home&lt;/span&gt; +1.415.555.1212&lt;/span&gt;
  289. [20:22:01] <briansuda> </pre>
  290. [20:22:08] <briansuda> that won't be found by hCard parsers
  291. [20:22:30] <briansuda> firstly, it isn't in a class="vcard", secondly that isn't HTML, so it doesn't know how to parse that
  292. [20:22:50] <tantek> briansuda, look further down the page
  293. [20:23:57] <briansuda> <div class="tel"><b><span class="type">Work</span > +1-650-289-4040&lt;/span&gt;</b></div >
  294. [20:24:02] <briansuda> no end </span>
  295. [20:24:10] * briansuda will fix it
  296. [20:25:08] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=23526 * Tantek * (+67) fix editor/author hCards
  297. [20:27:24] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=23527 * Brian * (-14) removed extra span elements
  298. [20:28:39] <tantek> good catch brian
  299. [20:28:48] * mastaYoda (n=lars@xdsl-87-79-228-110.netcologne.de) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  300. [20:34:23] <briansuda> ok, the http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard gives these values for TEL
  301. [20:34:27] <briansuda> TEL;TYPE=work:+1-650-289-4040
  302. [20:34:28] <briansuda> TEL;TYPE=fax:+1-650-289-4041
  303. [20:34:51] <briansuda> that looks like what you would expect
  304. [20:37:09] <tantek> excellent
  305. [20:37:18] <tantek> did you also see valid hCards for the editor/authors?
  306. [20:37:19] * mastaYoda (n=lars@xdsl-87-78-221-250.netcologne.de) has joined #microformats
  307. [20:37:44] <briansuda> yes, it extracts them too
  308. [20:38:14] <briansuda> i still need to clean-up a few things, strangely fixing it for our wiki breaks my page, so i need to sort out something minor
  309. [20:40:51] <tantek> breaks which page?
  310. [20:41:42] <briansuda> http://suda.co.uk/contact and the wiki/hcard
  311. [20:42:12] <briansuda> i can remove extra text on one, and it appears on the other, fixing one, breaks the other. i just need to tweak the code abit more
  312. [20:42:46] <tantek> really? i'm a bit surprised by that. were you using subtypes on those pages?
  313. [20:43:05] <briansuda> i was, but i removed the VALUE from one of them on my page
  314. [20:43:31] <briansuda> i'll have it sorted out in a few minutes, we'll have to make some tests to prevent any regression
  315. [20:43:41] <mfbot> [[style-guide]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/style-guide * Tantek * (+1668) drafted to jot down some notes about affiliation
  316. [20:43:48] <tantek> good point
  317. [20:47:47] <mfbot> [[process]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=process&diff=0&oldid=23528 * Tantek * (+22) note [[style-guide]] when creating a page for a microformat spec
  318. [20:50:42] * nslater (n=nslater@gnu/webmaster/nslater) has joined #microformats
  319. [20:50:49] <nslater> hey guys, the microformats blog has been hacked
  320. [20:51:04] <tantek> briansuda, presumably we can use the sample Commercenet hCard in the spec as a test case
  321. [20:51:15] <nslater> http://microformatique.com/?p=208
  322. [20:51:26] <nslater> view source and you will see lots and lots of links for viagra sites
  323. [20:51:46] <briansuda> that isn't our site
  324. [20:51:52] <nslater> who's is it?
  325. [20:52:05] <tantek> Isn't that John Allsop's site?
  326. [20:52:05] <briansuda> John Allsopp, i will pass the word along
  327. [20:52:20] <nslater> i would have assumed he hung out in here :)
  328. [20:52:27] <tantek> right, thanks for the spelling correction briansuda
  329. [20:52:34] <tantek> nslater, he is in Australia, he might be asleep
  330. [20:53:21] <nslater> weird, it seems to only be that page
  331. [20:54:29] <briansuda> could it have come from a comment?
  332. [20:54:55] <nslater> no, its in the post body html, i only noticed because they came through in my feedreader unstyled as a big list of viagra sites! :)
  333. [20:55:31] <nslater> which reminds me, tantek, the tags in your posts always come through as a big unstyled list, not sure if that's intentional or not
  334. [20:55:50] <nslater> ... heh, they tend to take up a whole page on my display before i get to the content
  335. [20:56:31] <tantek> yes I need to figure out how to style them in the atom feed to show up as they do on my HTML page
  336. [20:57:11] <nslater> tantek: hmm, i wonder if they need to be in the atom content at all? would this not be a better application for embeded rdf or something similar?
  337. [20:57:34] <nslater> s/content/whatever atom calls the "body" content of a post/
  338. [20:59:33] <tantek> they are part of the post and thus should be included
  339. [21:00:09] <nslater> are they not really metadata? thats what im saying, and i would say that metadata belongs outside of the "content" envelope
  340. [21:00:24] <tantek> metadata is quite a problematic term
  341. [21:00:31] <tantek> they're relevant to the user, and thus data
  342. [21:00:56] <tantek> and thus should be visible, not invisible
  343. [21:01:55] <nslater> i wouldnt say "metadata" is problematic in and of its self, only the presumption that it should be hidden. however, i do conceed your point about it being something that should be displayed which brings you right back around to putting in the content envelope, damn. :)
  344. [21:03:53] <nslater> having said all of that, atom provides the category element which is designed to be used for this exact purpose
  345. [21:04:17] <tantek> metadata is problematic mostly as a term, in that it is often overused, when simple "data" would not only suffice, but is more accurate.
  346. [21:04:36] <nslater> i would only say metadata is data about data, a list of tags is clearly data about data
  347. [21:04:43] <tantek> right, atom's category element represents legacy thinking about invisible metadata
  348. [21:05:00] <nslater> its only invisible because there are few clients that display it
  349. [21:05:07] <nslater> i doubt the spec says "this is invisble data"
  350. [21:05:25] <tantek> it is legacy as it is no better than meta keywords
  351. [21:05:46] <nslater> how can you say legacy, it only went standards track last month! :)
  352. [21:06:27] <tantek> i was very specific: atom's category element represents legacy thinking about invisible metadata
  353. [21:06:33] <tantek> not atom itself
  354. [21:06:56] <nslater> well i think that there are a great many people who would not consider this "legacy thinking" about "invisible" meta data.
  355. [21:07:25] <tantek> there are yes, hence why there *is* legacy, rather then there *was* legacy
  356. [21:07:41] <tantek> here is a topical blog post on this: http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359
  357. [21:08:32] <nslater> yes, ive read that along with some of adactio's posts and i must say that i disagree
  358. [21:08:56] <nslater> it's not up to content producers to pull metadata into the regular content, it's up to user agents to build more advanced clients that SHOW us the metadata
  359. [21:09:04] <tantek> and while your definition of metadata is a reasonable one, it is rarely used to mean just 'data about data' and is more often used to mean things like "automatically" generated data, or machine-only data etc. thus the term is problematic, as different people very often mean different things when they say it.
  360. [21:10:07] <tantek> the problem is even implicit in the use of a separate term for metadata. that is it implies that metadata is or somehow should be separate from the data.
  361. [21:10:08] <nslater> i just think that moving this kind of stuff to the content envelope is really an ugly hack around the inadiquate user agents who should REALLY be able to process meta elements and eRDF, RDFa and linked RDF
  362. [21:10:22] <nslater> tantek: yes, i believe it should be, timbl would agree
  363. [21:10:53] <tantek> it doesn't matter what anyone thinks it should be, it matters how humans communicate, and humans communicate with embedded data and data about data all mixed together.
  364. [21:11:15] <tantek> thus it is better to mark such "metadata" up inline, rather than to try to move it to some separate silo
  365. [21:11:29] <tantek> especially when moving it will often cause it to lose some meaning as its context is lost
  366. [21:11:31] <nslater> tantek: that assumes that the way humans do it is more efficient
  367. [21:11:48] <nslater> also, it assumes user agents are unable to consolidate a resource and it's meta data
  368. [21:12:02] <tantek> no, it assumes that marking up existing human content publishing behavior is easier than changing human content publishing behavior
  369. [21:12:11] <tantek> which has been fairly well established
  370. [21:12:46] <nslater> well yes, but what if you had a system that seperated these two things at publishing time for the user...
  371. [21:12:55] <nslater> ... then a user agent that combinded them for display.
  372. [21:13:23] <nslater> then the user can do what they want naturally, and the machines can have resources and metadata seperate
  373. [21:14:25] <tantek> and re: your second assumption, that is also incorrect. a better way of putting it is that reconsolidating a resource and it's metadata is an extra cost (of time, code, understanding, etc.), in comparison to metadata that is already in the data. it is also subject to error, as the *publisher* typically has a better understanding of the relation between the data and metadata than the *consumer*. thus leaving it to the consumer will i
  374. [21:14:59] <nslater> you got cut off at "consumer will i"
  375. [21:15:12] <tantek> thus leaving it to the consumer will inevitably result in loss of fidelity.
  376. [21:15:40] <tantek> as well as removing metadata from the context of its data and reconstituting it will also often result in a loss of fidelity merely due to the loss of context.
  377. [21:16:03] <nslater> i reject that. if your publishing software exposes resource representations and metadata according to the W3C TAG guidlines there is no room for ambiguity
  378. [21:16:26] <nslater> tantek: i also reject that, RDF does not imply a loss of fedelity
  379. [21:16:30] <tantek> so for purposes of maintaining maximum fidelity of communication it is undesirable to separate data from metadata, and it is undesirable to leave reconstitution to the consumer.
  380. [21:16:48] <nslater> but where reconstitution is explicitly defined by specification there should be no problem
  381. [21:17:07] <nslater> also, exporting metadata into RDF does /not/ result in a loss of fedelity
  382. [21:17:25] <tantek> you're making the big mistake of assuming that a specification definition is sufficient. human usage patterns matter far more than how well a specification is specified.
  383. [21:17:42] <tantek> if the specification makes it too hard for humans to do it, they won't do it, plain and simple. no matter how well specified the specification is.
  384. [21:17:58] <nslater> it shouldnt be the humans who do it, it should be the user agents
  385. [21:18:11] <tantek> the human component of the equation has a far higher impact on the fidelity of the data than the clarity of the specification, or the precision of any abstract model
  386. [21:18:26] <tantek> humans author content, plain and simple, you will never get around that
  387. [21:18:27] <nslater> like i said, the users should have to think about it
  388. [21:18:38] <tantek> so saying "it shouldn't be" doesn't matter. it simply is.
  389. [21:18:40] <nslater> yes, but if your publishing software doesnt suck it should be able to do all this for you
  390. [21:18:58] <tantek> you can either choose to design for human behaviors, or you can hope for some massive change in human behavior, and design for that.
  391. [21:19:06] * klml (n=klml@e181094055.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #microformats
  392. [21:19:11] <tantek> again, you are talking a theoretical
  393. [21:19:17] <tantek> "if your publishing software doesnt suck"
  394. [21:19:19] <nslater> no no, this isnt about human behaviour, it's about the quality of the software we use
  395. [21:19:28] <nslater> yes, i am talking about theoreticals
  396. [21:19:32] <nslater> i am talking about the "ideal"
  397. [21:19:42] <nslater> the "wouldnt it be great if..."
  398. [21:19:53] <tantek> those tend to be a waste of time in practice
  399. [21:20:09] <nslater> well, it depends if you're doing anything about it... which i am... ;)
  400. [21:20:18] <nslater> but anyway, i think i will have to leave it here, got to dash
  401. [21:20:24] <nslater> thanks for discussing with me though :)
  402. [21:20:33] <tantek> it still takes you longer that way
  403. [21:20:40] <tantek> thus the waste of time point
  404. [21:21:00] <nslater> yes, but if i could write some kick ass publishing software that did a lot of this for the users, wouldnt that be a great thing?
  405. [21:21:11] <nslater> all we need then are some proper semweb clients and hey presto! :)
  406. [21:21:44] <tantek> reinvent the web? sure.
  407. [21:21:52] <nslater> reinvent the web!? what?
  408. [21:22:12] <tantek> the web is authored today, largely by people using text editors
  409. [21:22:28] <tantek> the typical page users load is from a template authored by a web designer, in a text editor
  410. [21:22:32] <tantek> the web is hand authored today
  411. [21:22:38] <nslater> yes.... i dont follow how writing some semweb publishing software is me "reinventing" the web
  412. [21:22:51] <tantek> no, but semweb is reinventing the web
  413. [21:23:02] <tantek> it is creating a second, parallel, shadow web
  414. [21:23:31] <nslater> right, but if we can get the software in place that does all the hard stuff then we can just swap out the old software and the users can keep doing what they have always done and everything will be great
  415. [21:23:46] <tantek> right, "swap out" = revinent
  416. [21:23:53] <tantek> reinvent even ;)
  417. [21:23:57] <nslater> tantek: no, that specifically refered to the software
  418. [21:24:04] <nslater> and this shadow web stuff is nonsense
  419. [21:24:30] <tantek> it's not, because the RDF folks keep trying to squeeze human behavior into a clean data model, which is impractical and doomed to fail
  420. [21:24:48] <nslater> its not doomed to fail, you just need some kickass software that does it automatically
  421. [21:24:52] <tantek> much easier just to analyze the data people publish, and help them increase the semantics inline
  422. [21:25:07] <nslater> yes, exactly, analyze it and make RDF from it! bingo!
  423. [21:25:10] <tantek> you are mistaking a social/psychological problem for a technical problem
  424. [21:25:17] <nslater> no im not...
  425. [21:25:21] <tantek> no amount of software will solve that problem
  426. [21:25:21] * Hey_neken (n=kaxero@170.Red-88-16-61.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #microformats
  427. [21:25:26] <nslater> why not?
  428. [21:25:40] <nslater> why cant software automatically gleen metadata?
  429. [21:25:42] <tantek> because it assumes people will change their behaviors
  430. [21:26:12] <nslater> no it doesn't, i am saying exactly that if your software is good enough then people wont even notice they are publishing to the semantic web, it will "just happen"
  431. [21:26:41] <tantek> and besides, you are still missing all the points about how separating (gleaning if you prefer) metadata from the data, and especially making it invisible, is greatly undesirable, from a fidelity perspective.
  432. [21:26:55] <nslater> re shadow web, http://danbri.org/words/2007/11/21/228
  433. [21:27:09] <tantek> why would you bother reading from the shadow web when you get higher fidelity data from the real web?
  434. [21:27:19] <nslater> i reject the term shadow web :)
  435. [21:27:42] <tantek> at Technorati, we parsed and analyzed millions of RSS feeds, and noted that quite a large portion of them were vastly inferior to the HTML
  436. [21:27:42] <nslater> i also reject that it's higher fidelity, theoretically at least
  437. [21:27:49] <nslater> sure
  438. [21:27:50] <tantek> they were broken, out of date, abbreviated etc.
  439. [21:27:55] <nslater> im not talking about "now"
  440. [21:28:08] <tantek> nevermind theory, the biggest attempt at a shadow web has shown to be lower fidelity
  441. [21:28:09] <nslater> im talking about utopia, where all the software doesnt suck
  442. [21:28:23] <tantek> no you're talking about a utopia that involves changing human behaviors
  443. [21:28:33] <nslater> no, i am not - damn, this is getting frustrating
  444. [21:28:41] <nslater> i am saying the users should never have to think about metadata
  445. [21:28:43] <tantek> humans don't communicate in clean data models, any attempt to force that fails
  446. [21:28:48] <nslater> never enter it, never bother with it
  447. [21:28:56] <tantek> right, hence my preference to just use the term data
  448. [21:28:57] <nslater> they should just do whatever they lick
  449. [21:29:01] <tantek> users *do* think about data
  450. [21:29:09] <tantek> so why are you trying to make them not think about it?
  451. [21:29:10] <nslater> no no, the metadata is gleened by the software
  452. [21:29:25] <nslater> i am not doing any such thing!
  453. [21:29:30] <tantek> or did you not notice how tagging took off once it was made visible and part of the data rather than the metadata?
  454. [21:29:47] <tantek> gleaning = lower fidelity
  455. [21:29:48] <nslater> just because it's visible does not make it non-metadata
  456. [21:29:54] <nslater> metadata != invisible
  457. [21:30:02] <nslater> that's an implementation detail in many cases
  458. [21:30:06] <nslater> or not, as the case may be
  459. [21:30:11] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181192153.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  460. [21:30:23] <tantek> no or not, show me one counterexample
  461. [21:30:38] <tantek> meta keywords and rss are both examples of lower fidelity shadow data
  462. [21:30:42] <nslater> gleaning only == lower fidelity if the user can input heigher fedelity metadata than the machine can gleen which is a big assumption on your part
  463. [21:31:05] <tantek> not an assumption at all - but well demonstrated by Flickr tags for example
  464. [21:31:08] <nslater> tantek: use mozilla to browse the web and notice how all the meta elements suddenly show up on the chrom of the browser
  465. [21:31:11] <tantek> as opposed to Google image search
  466. [21:31:41] <nslater> tantek: it is an assumption, you have one use case which actually undermines your own point - look at the EXIF data which is FAR more descriptive than the tags
  467. [21:32:02] <tantek> no it is not "more" descriptive, it provides different data
  468. [21:32:22] <nslater> but it isnt "low" fedelity simply by product of it's generation by machines
  469. [21:32:24] <tantek> and i would trust visible tags on a photo way more than any keywords inserted by someone into the EXIF
  470. [21:32:34] <tantek> generation != gleaning
  471. [21:32:44] <tantek> and EXIF is not generation, it is capturing
  472. [21:32:47] <nslater> and my argument isnt only about gleaning
  473. [21:33:03] <nslater> it's about making generation + gleaning a background process that users dont have to think about
  474. [21:33:12] <tantek> the only worthy "automatic" metadata is that which is captured at the point of authoring/creation of data
  475. [21:33:20] <tantek> all other is lower fidelity
  476. [21:33:38] <nslater> yes, and why do you exclude that from the possibility of inclusion in a publishing package for the web?
  477. [21:33:52] <tantek> i strongly agree with your desire to make things easier for users, but don't make them change their content model, or how they author.
  478. [21:34:03] <nslater> i agree with you totally...
  479. [21:34:17] <nslater> you cant expect to change anything which would result in the users changing behaviour
  480. [21:34:27] <nslater> i dont see how what i am proposing contradicts that :)
  481. [21:34:32] <tantek> i didn't make any such exclusion. you focused on gleaning/generating. i pointed out how that's undesirable and leads to lower fidelity
  482. [21:34:52] <nslater> the only other option is to get users to enter metadata by hand, which most of them dont
  483. [21:34:58] <tantek> the very notion of separating data and data about data is a change in user behavior
  484. [21:35:03] <tantek> which is what you propose
  485. [21:35:09] <nslater> how many times have you seen a "normal" persons computer and all the documents are called "Untitled Document 23"
  486. [21:35:24] <tantek> documents shouldn't require names
  487. [21:35:29] <nslater> normal people dont care about metadata
  488. [21:35:33] <tantek> pieces of paper that you write on don't require names
  489. [21:35:39] <tantek> so therefore documents shouldn't either
  490. [21:35:55] <tantek> you cannot conclude that from one example
  491. [21:36:05] <tantek> that is a logical fallacy of proving a negative
  492. [21:36:06] <nslater> exactly, but you're proposing that metadata be entered directly by the very same people who have a desktop with 300 documents all called "Unitled Document"
  493. [21:36:23] <tantek> the reality is, that people care about data when they care about it, and they don't when they don't
  494. [21:36:41] <tantek> no i'm not proposing that, you're still missing the social/psychological vs. technical point
  495. [21:36:52] <nslater> no, my point is not a logical one, i couldnt possibly make a logical one, just pointing out that from experience people are very bad at providing metadata - you would need to do a proper study before making any direct conclusions
  496. [21:37:00] * briansuda has checked-in his fixes http://hg.microformats.org/x2v and uploaded them to http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/
  497. [21:37:28] <tantek> you are coming from a perspective of figuring out an ideal a priori, whereas what i'm saying is, rather than jumping to conclusions about what users do or should do, how about studying them and then basing your design on that instead?
  498. [21:37:56] <tantek> people title their blog posts all the time for example
  499. [21:38:07] <tantek> it is easy to provide counter-examples to your assertion
  500. [21:38:14] <nslater> we are in agreement, i still dont follow this to the conclusion that data and the data describing the data should be mixed - i think machines shoudl figure out how to seperate it...
  501. [21:38:19] <tantek> most photos on Flickr are tagged
  502. [21:38:29] <nslater> tantek: how do you know?
  503. [21:38:41] <tantek> as reported by Flickr
  504. [21:38:44] <nslater> where are the statistics?
  505. [21:38:45] <tantek> in many web presentations
  506. [21:38:49] <tantek> it is widely known
  507. [21:38:57] <tantek> go ask Flickr if you want details
  508. [21:39:16] <nslater> hmm, "widely known" is shakey at best but I will believe you ;)
  509. [21:39:32] <tantek> the problem is one of perspective. you keep look at things as "should be" whereas I'm saying, why not just look at "what is" and go from that.
  510. [21:39:43] <nslater> anyway, i still dont see how this contradicts what i my original point was
  511. [21:39:57] <nslater> ... i think your blog post keywords should be outside the content envelope
  512. [21:40:01] <tantek> your very question "should be mixed" misses the point
  513. [21:40:03] <nslater> its up to user agents to display them
  514. [21:40:23] <tantek> people *do* mix their data and data about their data
  515. [21:40:30] <tantek> that's the first point
  516. [21:40:41] <tantek> the second point is that yes, it turns out that mixing is better for fidelity as well
  517. [21:40:51] <tantek> due to all the points I made in http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359
  518. [21:41:04] <nslater> i reject that mixing is better for fidelity
  519. [21:42:04] <nslater> anyway... got to go, thanks for the discussion
  520. [21:42:06] * nslater (n=nslater@gnu/webmaster/nslater) has left #microformats
  521. [21:42:07] <tantek> contradiction is not an argument. if you have specific counter-points to my blog post, i suggest you make a blog post of your own. otherwise the reasoning and evidence in my blog post stands, whether you choose to accept it or not.
  522. [21:56:01] * Malarkey_ (n=Malarkey@87.112.18.51.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  523. [21:56:41] <Malarkey_> Am I in? I'm not used to this IRC malarkey?
  524. [21:57:13] <drewinthehead> Malarkey_: you're in
  525. [21:57:41] <csarven-> tantek i was trying to follow this conversation and if i understand both of you correctly i just wanted to say that i don't think it is an either or case. i think visibility is dependant on the type of experience we want to offer (namely how we interact with the information).
  526. [21:59:28] * blueace_ (n=BlueAce@ip244-136-173-82.adsl2.versatel.nl) Quit ()
  527. [21:59:37] * Malarkey_ (n=Malarkey@87.112.18.51.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  528. [22:00:01] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181192153.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  529. [22:00:43] * csarven (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  530. [22:01:04] * csarven- is now known as csarven
  531. [22:02:55] <briansuda> well, Malarkey_ didn't last long
  532. [22:03:36] <csarven> i guess IRC is a bit too chaotic for some :)
  533. [22:07:07] * Malarkey (n=Malarkey@87.112.18.51.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  534. [22:07:09] * Malarkey (n=Malarkey@87.112.18.51.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  535. [22:09:02] * Malarkey (n=Malarkey@87.112.18.51.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  536. [22:09:09] <Malarkey> I'll give you not lasting long - Suda :)
  537. [22:11:19] <tantek> welcome Malarkey
  538. [22:11:47] <Malarkey> Why thank-you Tantek
  539. [22:13:46] <tantek> csarven, I agree with you completely about being "dependent on the type of experience we want to offer (namely how we interact with the information)."
  540. [22:13:51] <Malarkey> The reason I'm ds
  541. [22:14:15] <tantek> that is a good way to decide what content to publish and what not to.
  542. [22:14:42] <Malarkey> The reason I dropped by is (on Tantek's suggestion) I'm writing a six article series for InformIT on Designing With Microformats.
  543. [22:15:21] <Malarkey> The first is an evangelical rant. And if anyone would like to review or tech edit, please email me.
  544. [22:15:28] <tantek> csarven, once you make that decision about what to publish, then you can mark up the those visible contents with microformats.
  545. [22:16:01] <tantek> csarven, as for the rest, if you're not going to publish the information somewhere visibly, then it is not worth the time marking it up.
  546. [22:16:07] <tantek> Malarkey, go for it
  547. [22:17:55] * NeX (n=Alive@APuteaux-152-1-58-68.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit ("http://poleweb.blogspot.com")
  548. [22:21:08] * Malarkey (n=Malarkey@87.112.18.51.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
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  552. [22:39:11] <mfbot> [[hcard-example1-steps]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-example1-steps&diff=0&oldid=23529 * Tantek * (-263) rm outdated org info
  553. [22:41:57] <mfbot> [[hcard-example1-steps]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-example1-steps&diff=0&oldid=23530 * Tantek * (-69) remove inapplicable prose re: "organization-name"
  554. [22:47:39] * Hey_neken (n=kaxero@170.Red-88-16-61.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  555. [23:05:00] <mfbot> [[publishing]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/publishing * Tantek * (+25)
  556. [23:05:46] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=23531 * VanGore * (+204) Existing schema - NACE
  557. [23:16:37] * klml (n=klml@e181094055.adsl.alicedsl.de) has left #microformats
  558. [23:17:28] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=23532 * Tantek * (+719) added Backnetwork, Portable Social Network Profile Parser, ufXtract written by Glenn Jones of Madgex
  559. [23:17:49] <mfbot> [[implementors]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementors&diff=0&oldid=23533 * Tantek * (+748) added Glenn Jones, his company Madgex, and his implementations Backnetwork, Portable Social Network Profile Parser, ufXtract
  560. [23:22:15] <mfbot> [[implementors]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementors&diff=0&oldid=23534 * Tantek * (+13) make h1 consistent with implementations page, move Leonard to people section
  561. [23:34:54] * glennjones (n=glennjon@spc2-brig3-0-0-cust624.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  562. [23:36:36] <mfbot> [[hproduct-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-feedback&diff=0&oldid=23535 * Tantek * (+72) noted need to incorporate content this page into [[product-brainstorming]]
  563. [23:40:38] <mfbot> [[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=23536 * Tantek * (+197) noted pages to be incorporated, related, see also
  564. [23:42:54] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=23537 * Tantek * (+47) toc-right, note Existing Schema should be moved to [[product-formats]],
  565. [23:44:22] * glennjones (n=glennjon@spc2-brig3-0-0-cust624.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) Quit ()
  566. [23:46:10] <mfbot> [[product]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product&diff=0&oldid=23538 * Tantek * (-73) removed premature items. per [[process]] the *-formats page should be created before drafting a new proposal, much less naming a microformat
  567. [23:52:16] <mfbot> [[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=23539 * Tantek * (+597) added naming and proposal sections, move to be incorporated near top of brainstorming
  568. [23:58:12] <mfbot> [[hproduct-proposal]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-proposal&diff=0&oldid=23540 * Tantek * (+115) added research section, more see also, feedback on product-brainstorming,

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