IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-04-03

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  96. [12:11:57] <tobyink> Something wrong with the uf-discuss mailing list? I sent a message at 3 April 2008 12:40:17 +0100 and it's not arrived yet.
  97. [12:14:57] <GordonO> which one?
  98. [12:15:02] <GordonO> this one: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-April/011916.html ?
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  101. [12:15:47] <to_> hi
  102. [12:16:46] <tobyink> Nope, after that as a response to Dan Brickley's message re gender representation.
  103. [12:17:01] <to_> I'm just discovering microformats and there is one thing which is not totally clear for me... why all microformat are not official? for example why the product one isn't yet defined?
  104. [12:18:31] <GordonO> tobyink : hmm, yes. doesnt show up on the web interface. i have no idea.
  105. [12:18:50] <BenWard> to_: We have a process through which microformats are written and defined. The wiki hosts all the brainstorms for potential new formats, old and new.
  106. [12:19:18] <BenWard> to_: Things like product are just brainstorms that haven't progressed any further because the people originally pushing them haven't had time to progress any further.
  107. [12:20:08] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  108. [12:20:10] <BenWard> to_: Then other specs (like hListing) are drafts that need a couple more cycles to complete. Again, when the drivers get the time.
  109. [12:20:10] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  110. [12:20:46] <to_> but how to promote the microformats usage if they are not defined?
  111. [12:21:27] <GordonO> tobyink : your mail arrived now
  112. [12:21:38] <tobyink> @to_: Depending on how stable the specification is, you might be able to start using the microformat already.
  113. [12:21:45] <tobyink> @GordonO: Yay!
  114. [12:21:51] <to_> as a webdesigner, should I wait for microformats be more mature before integrate them?
  115. [12:22:11] <BenWard> Depends on the microformat :)
  116. [12:22:25] <BenWard> hCard, hCalednar, hAtom, hReview, hResume are all stable
  117. [12:22:29] <BenWard> And very usable right now
  118. [12:22:34] <tobyink> @to_: Justt don't expect many parsers to actually *do* anything with them, and also prepare to have to update the pages if the specificattion heads off in a different direction.
  119. [12:22:55] <BenWard> By contrast, hListing is proven to be implementable, but the spec itself is rough and is going to change.
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  121. [12:24:04] <GordonO> This is funny. Toby's mail arrived when I sent my email to the list. Now my eMail doesn't show up.
  122. [12:24:38] <to_> Are microformats parsed from today by search engine like google?
  123. [12:25:16] <BenWard> to_: Yahoo! has some alpha/beta search stuff that attaches microformatted data to search results (’SearchMonkey’)
  124. [12:26:17] <to_> recently I've discover that: http://www.google.com/products?q=car&btnG=Search+Products does it use microformat?
  125. [12:26:32] <to_> +ed
  126. [12:26:41] <BenWard> Google have a Social Graph application that uses XFN to make social relationships queryable
  127. [12:27:46] <BenWard> to_: That Google page doesn't. Although it could use hListing one day. Alas, it doesn't even use semantic HTML.
  128. [12:28:13] <tobyink> to_: Google product search requires vendors to push CSV databases of their stock lists to Google.
  129. [12:28:42] <tobyink> @GordonO: Perhaps it's a FIFO queue.
  130. [12:29:15] <GordonO> it wasnt until a few hours ago ;)
  131. [12:30:32] <GordonO> but I never understood how this list works anyway. The thread order seems to be completely random. So maybe the list is just moody.
  132. [12:36:28] <tobyink> My posts tend to screw up the threading. Basically because I'm not actually subscribed to the list - I read it through GMANE. But when I'm on my laptop (as I am today) and don't have NNTP access, I read through the web archive and reply in Mail.app, thus losing the "References" header and breaking threads. Naughty me.
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  142. [14:14:02] <GordonO> Should I add a page for the jCard draft to the wiki already? For reference? Might be easier to follow than in on the mailing list.
  143. [14:42:46] <tobyink> @GordonO: Sounds like a good idea to me. By the way, should hyphenated-keys versus camelKeys be considered decided in favour of hyphenated-keys?
  144. [14:48:21] <GordonO> I'm not sure. My impression judging by the replies so far is yes. What do you think?
  145. [14:49:21] * BenWard (n=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-8e7b4793a87f31b9) Quit ("Installing Leopard")
  146. [14:51:50] <Phae> fyi: http://microformats.eventwax.com/vevent
  147. [14:54:06] <tobyink> I don't have strong feelings in either direction. I can see the arguments for either side. camelCase is easier to use in Javascript. hyphenated-keys are more consistent with the terms in the vCard and hCard specs. But as the hyphenated-term to camelKeys mapping is very simple (can be made with just one little regexp) it shouldn't be a massive issue either way. (A consumer can fairly easily convert it into the other scheme if required.)
  148. [14:54:54] <GordonO> it really depends on what we want to use the jCards for
  149. [14:55:15] <GordonO> for data interchange it is easier to have the standardized names
  150. [14:55:29] <GordonO> for programming, camelcase is easier
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  152. [14:56:32] <tobyink> perhaps the best solution is to use hyphenated-terms, but provide a public domain javascript function to convert to/from camelCase for easy use
  153. [14:56:55] <GordonO> you can still use most properties via their identifiers
  154. [14:57:13] <GordonO> its just not pretty to have some accessible this way and some that way
  155. [14:58:42] <GordonO> and its plain ugly to type myCard['adr'][1]['street-address']
  156. [15:01:04] <tobyink> Aren't JS arrays 0-based? Also, street-address is an array too!
  157. [15:01:37] <GordonO> yes. 0 zero based.. that was just meant as an example if I was to access the 2nd element.
  158. [15:02:09] <tobyink> myCard.adr[0].streetAddress[0] is certainly nicer - but as I said, a public domain function could be used to convert from hyphenated-keys to camelCase, and then they could be used in a pretty way.
  159. [15:03:44] <GordonO> certainly. and for those leaf property arrays we should use a custom getter. something like myCard.adr[0].streetAddress() to get all of those values concatenated by comma
  160. [15:07:05] <GordonO> does it make sense? keep the hyphenated property names and use custom getters to access them? we might just as well implement them for all properties, so you could do myCard.adr(0).streetAddress()
  161. [15:08:27] <GordonO> could be done this way
  162. [15:09:15] <GordonO> +1 for hyphenated keys :)
  163. [15:13:50] <tobyink> OK - I'm changing the output for my service then.
  164. [15:14:50] <GordonO> You might want to wait on more feedback in case this is a lot of work to do.
  165. [15:18:32] <tobyink> not a lot of work. in fact, all finished.
  166. [15:22:33] <GordonO> great. I'll add the current jCard draft to the wiki later that day.
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  172. [15:47:26] <mfbot> [[events/2008-london-microformats-vevent]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-london-microformats-vevent&diff=0&oldid=26596 * Phae * (+947) Updated with details
  173. [15:47:42] <mfbot> [[events/2008-london-microformats-vevent]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-london-microformats-vevent&diff=0&oldid=26597 * Phae * (-82)
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  180. [16:39:51] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=26598 * Adactio * (+7) Upcoming -
  181. [16:41:03] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=26599 * Adactio * (+15) Microformats related events -
  182. [16:41:48] <Phae> <3 adactio, for he is better at updating than i.
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  186. [16:46:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o adactio
  187. [16:46:51] <Phae> thx adactio
  188. [16:46:54] <Phae> for moving my linkage
  189. [16:46:59] <adactio> np
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  191. [17:16:15] <mfbot> [[events/2008-05-08-xtech]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2008-05-08-xtech * Adactio * (+1739)
  192. [17:23:52] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=26600 * Adactio * (+332) Upcoming -
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  195. [17:29:08] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=26601 * Adactio * (+0) Upcoming -
  196. [17:34:15] * bear_afk is now known as bear
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  202. [17:46:42] <mfbot> [[events/2008-04-18-fowd]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2008-04-18-fowd * Adactio * (+1586)
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  204. [17:57:35] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=26602 * Adactio * (+303) Upcoming -
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  209. [18:05:47] <mfbot> [[events/2008-05-08-xtech]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-05-08-xtech&diff=0&oldid=26603 * Adactio * (+271) details -
  210. [18:07:58] <mfbot> [[events/2008-04-18-fowd]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-04-18-fowd&diff=0&oldid=26604 * Adactio * (+289) details -
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  215. [18:16:00] <mfbot> [[genealogy-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-examples&diff=0&oldid=26605 * RobSalzman * (+334) In the wild -
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  253. [22:12:58] <mfbot> [[HReview-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=HReview-feedback&diff=0&oldid=26606 * Im7Zp2 * (+11157)
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  257. [22:33:50] <mfbot> [[disambiguation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=disambiguation&diff=0&oldid=26607 * FajRo * (-11943) spamlinks
  258. [22:37:31] <mfbot> [[HReview-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=HReview-feedback&diff=0&oldid=26608 * FajRo * (-11157) spamlinks
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.