IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-05-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  39. [04:04:56] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=26962 * Tantek * (+396) added specific events for Wellington and Christchurch workshops
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  43. [04:48:49] <mfbot> [[rel-me]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-me&diff=0&oldid=26963 * Tantek * (+218) added Joseph Smarr video on rel="me"
  44. [04:58:35] <mfbot> [[rel-me]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-me&diff=0&oldid=26964 * Tantek * (+328) added Gavin Bell video on "What is your provenance?"
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  105. [11:43:01] <rff> hi everyone
  106. [11:44:40] <rff> about xfn: the subject of an xfn relation is always the current page/host ?
  107. [11:45:15] <rff> more to the point: can I markup the "link/url/homepage" field in comments with xfn rels?
  108. [11:45:18] * meitar_ (n=meitar@124-170-249-4.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit ()
  109. [11:45:26] <tantek_> always
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  112. [11:45:49] <tantek> in comments, no
  113. [11:46:02] <rff> if I'd format the comments with mnimal hcard I could use hcard.url probably but if it was possible to just use xfn I'd be happier
  114. [11:46:12] <tantek> comment authors can be marked up with hCard, with the link/url/homepage field with class="url" per hCard.
  115. [11:46:13] <rff> tantek, thanks
  116. [11:46:23] <rff> ah wonderful at least I'm in sync :)
  117. [11:46:43] <tantek> np :)
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  124. [12:51:28] <MrTopf> Hey there, I am wondering if there is a way to e.g. markup a list of images using Microformats. It would be useful for pointing at a location and say: Import all my photos from here or something along those lines.
  125. [12:52:44] * cygri (n=cygri@86.47.129.77) Quit ()
  126. [13:10:54] <bennewarde> MrTopf: Not specifically for images. However, the image content could perhaps be marked up with hAtom to create a feed, and that could be imported
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  129. [13:16:32] <MrTopf> BenWard: I was also thinking along those lines.. actually in the DataPortability group somebody wants to build an application which gets a pointer to somebody's photos. this might be received from a service catalog e.g. marked up as XRDS-Simple
  130. [13:16:49] <MrTopf> the question then would be what the type is. Is it hAtom or hAtom+image?
  131. [13:17:13] <MrTopf> because there might be many hAtom services then (actually maybe in this case it could even be RSS with image enclosures)
  132. [13:17:43] <BenWard> well, it could still be hAtom. Either the image itself would be in the entry-content (or be the entry-content itself), or perhaps the img would be linked to with rel=enclosure?
  133. [13:18:30] <MrTopf> one could also say, use hAtom or RSS whatever is available in the service catalog of that user
  134. [13:18:38] <MrTopf> so maybe this is a way to got
  135. [13:18:46] <MrTopf> maybe better than specifying a flickr API endpoint
  136. [13:20:26] <MrTopf> I will propose that to him, thanks for your input :)
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  138. [13:31:03] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats ro]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats_ro&diff=0&oldid=26965 * Irina Tal * (+591)
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  148. [14:14:36] <riffraff> hhi again
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  150. [14:18:23] <tantek> BenWard, MrTopf hAtom + rel-enclosure makes sense for that use case.
  151. [14:19:13] <MrTopf> yeah, I told him.. it would be good though if you could specify some type which describes that it's image enclosures
  152. [14:19:32] <MrTopf> or mark it up somehow in an XRDS file..
  153. [14:19:43] <MrTopf> Type could be http://purl.org/uF/hAtom/0.1/
  154. [14:20:01] <MrTopf> too bad one does not have subtypes.. ;-)
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  157. [14:28:13] <tantek> the image can be referenced via a hyperlink <a href>
  158. [14:28:27] <tantek> use the "type" attribute on the a href to indicate the content-type of the image
  159. [14:28:58] <tantek> no need to use XRDS or any external files, simple type hints like that have been in HTML for over 10 years
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  175. [15:39:44] <tommorris_> MrTopf: the problem is the metadata. A list of images is pretty easy (<ol><li><img ... /></li>...</ol>), but it's the site-specific metadata
  176. [15:40:50] <tommorris_> it may be better on a large scale (ie. a few thousand photos) to have some way of doing an API call, or perhaps getting with each image a pointer to a page containing meta-data
  177. [15:41:40] * cygri (n=cygri@86.47.129.77) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  178. [15:42:02] <tommorris_> ie. photowebsite.com/user/tom/photos/index returning a file listing all the photos, each one of which being a binary image file (JPEG etc.) and some kind of meta-data - XMP, plain old XML or maybe (X)HTML with microformats and other semantic annotations
  179. [15:42:16] <tommorris_> anyway, /me is off to take the dog for a walk
  180. [15:43:11] <tommorris_> And XRDS is the garden path to insanity, imho
  181. [15:43:52] <tommorris_> dataportability being tied to XRDS is a major turn-off for me
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  194. [16:39:05] <mfbot> [[User:Irina Tal]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Irina_Tal * Irina Tal * (+28)
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  196. [16:50:22] <MrTopf> tommorris_: when I am thinking of e.g. flickr they coud actually add some metadata tags around each photo
  197. [16:50:43] <MrTopf> ah, you wrote that :)
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  200. [17:01:36] <MrTopf> tommorris_: why is this regarding XRDS? Seems that many people move to it (like opensocial)
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  223. [18:28:51] <JPatterson> so. who loves data discovery around here? <grin/>
  224. [18:28:58] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-pending]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-pending&diff=0&oldid=26966 * Chris Messina * (+100) Added Veer's Skinny.
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  230. [18:49:38] <jbond> Had a question about discovery. Does uF have a good solution to auto-discovery of classes of uF HTML docs? eg. If I'm looking at a root home page, how should I discover the location of the AboutMe page with my Profile data in hCard?
  231. [18:54:59] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@192.5.109.49) has joined #microformats
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  234. [18:59:51] <tantek> jbond what's the user scenarios?
  235. [19:02:46] <jbond> User enters home page of their blog into a new site. Consuming app collects blog, finds <link> in the <head> pointing at the AboutMe profile page marked up with hCard.
  236. [19:03:11] <tantek> no need to go to the invisible <link>
  237. [19:03:27] <tantek> most blog home pages have a brief mention of the user's name
  238. [19:03:28] <jbond> Or the link to the page containing XFN links to all their other profile pages. Or the link to the page containing their list of XFN marked up contacts
  239. [19:03:36] <tantek> which is then linked to a page with more information
  240. [19:03:47] <tantek> so you start by looking for a representative hCard on the URL provided by the user
  241. [19:03:49] <tantek> use that
  242. [19:03:59] <tantek> then if that hCard has a url+uid that points to a *different* URL
  243. [19:04:02] <tantek> go get that
  244. [19:04:09] <tantek> and read the representative hCard there
  245. [19:04:18] <tantek> no invisible <head> metadata needed
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  248. [19:06:18] <MrTopf> if rel=me links would have types that would be helpful (e.g. contact list, another profile, my images etc.)
  249. [19:06:36] <jbond> It's those three cases, I'm particularly interested in. About Me page, YASN-Roll and Contact list. Agreed, the links don't have to be invisible (though they could be) but I feel the need for some kind of marker that says this link goes to this type of page.
  250. [19:06:39] <tantek> only the destination page knows what it really is
  251. [19:06:47] <tantek> so advisory types on links are not really that useful
  252. [19:06:48] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@192.5.109.49) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  253. [19:06:56] <tantek> you have to go do a rel="me" transclusion anyway
  254. [19:07:04] <tantek> or just ask the Google Social Graph API
  255. [19:07:14] <tantek> given a URL, what are the other "me" URLs
  256. [19:07:37] <jbond> Is there any parallel here with RSS Discovery? Since only the RSS file knows it's actually RSS.
  257. [19:07:52] <tantek> in many ways RSS is a violation of DRY
  258. [19:08:07] <tantek> there would be no need to discover the RSS if the page itself merely had hAtom
  259. [19:08:16] <jbond> But clearly RSS discovery is useful and has worked
  260. [19:08:30] <tantek> it's useful for an unnecessary increase in complexity
  261. [19:08:34] <tantek> much simpler to just have one page
  262. [19:08:44] <tantek> rather than two that require that "discovery" between them
  263. [19:09:33] <MrTopf> but I don't want to load all those pages to discover what they contain.. I am a bit afraid about bad performance
  264. [19:09:37] <jbond> But I don't particularly want to have the About Me page, YASN-Roll and Contact list all on the home page of my blog
  265. [19:10:15] <MrTopf> I am also not sure I want to bind myself to some search engine
  266. [19:13:36] <tantek> choose which you wish to optimize
  267. [19:13:43] <tantek> if you want the independence, crawl it yourself
  268. [19:13:55] <tantek> if you want the less code/maintenance, use the provided API
  269. [19:14:01] <tantek> it's like frameworks
  270. [19:14:10] <tantek> use someone else's, or write your own, your choice.
  271. [19:14:26] <tantek> the algorithms are open and public as is the data, so you have that choice
  272. [19:15:08] <tantek> or start with the convenience of calling someone else's API/framework, and then later decide if it is important enough to you to be independent of of someone else's API/framework and swap it out then with your own implementation.
  273. [19:15:16] <MrTopf> I know but given you have a new user signing up you'd first need to crawl all his pages to find those services.. that's why I think that a central repository might be better or at least a limited set of those
  274. [19:15:22] <MrTopf> be they marked up whatever way
  275. [19:15:48] <JPatterson> i agree with tantek's point of using someone else's api, as a sort of scaffolding... as long as you can get out from under it down the road.
  276. [19:16:18] <MrTopf> sure, but this API of course also would need to handle protected data then
  277. [19:16:31] <tantek> not in common cases
  278. [19:16:46] <tantek> start with just public data, that's sufficient to get started to build useful things
  279. [19:16:57] <tantek> don't try to be 100% on day 1
  280. [19:17:02] <MrTopf> I have enough cases where I would like to control how my identites are linked
  281. [19:17:04] <JPatterson> thats probably a good point
  282. [19:17:08] <MrTopf> so it needs to be protected to some extent
  283. [19:17:11] <tantek> ship early, ship often
  284. [19:17:34] <JPatterson> ive long advocated "try a lot of things, since whihc ones make it to the next generation"
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  288. [19:18:57] <MrTopf> I agree with all this but I still would like to think a step further.. I already started implementing stuff like the pydataportability lib
  289. [19:20:03] <MrTopf> but anyway, trying out things cannot hurt anyway. so I will still go the XRDS route.. if it's adopted by somebody will be seen. For me implementing this is at least easier than crawling
  290. [19:20:18] <MrTopf> it might actually be populated by some sort of external API like SGAPI
  291. [19:20:43] <MrTopf> but I gotta go, should not stay everyday in the office til late night
  292. [19:20:52] <MrTopf> good conversation, see ya soon!
  293. [19:23:01] * MrTopf (i=hidden-u@oecher.info) Quit ()
  294. [19:24:18] <jbond> My experience with the SG-API has been a bit mixed so far. It's inevitably out of date and incomplete. And it's still got some parsing problems.
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  296. [19:26:04] <jbond> I'm having some success reading XFN rel="me" pages directly but one of the problems has been finding them, or getting the user to tell me where they are
  297. [19:27:39] <jbond> We could do with a bit of evangelism to get bloggers to put an XFN marked YASN-Roll in a sidebar of their blogs.
  298. [19:28:43] * danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) has joined #microformats
  299. [19:32:04] <tantek> jbond developers are already doing that on user profiles
  300. [19:32:14] <tantek> e.g. Pownce, Digg etc. "Other Profiles" sections
  301. [19:32:17] <tantek> with seamless UI
  302. [19:32:23] <tantek> no need for the user to know about XFN
  303. [19:32:35] <jbond> Right. Absolutely.
  304. [19:33:00] <tantek> see: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists#Services_with_XFN_rel.3D.22me.22_to_multiple_external_sites
  305. [19:33:14] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.113.68.178.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
  306. [19:33:35] <jbond> Hence the question about discovery. If that list is on a different page to the user's "home page" how do I find it?
  307. [19:34:11] * cygri (n=cygri@86.47.129.77) Quit ()
  308. [19:36:41] <jbond> Of course in all those examples it is on the same page. ;)
  309. [19:37:11] <jbond> Should add MyBlogLog to that page as well. I've been trying to get Mashable to do the same thing.
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  312. [19:47:30] * jbond is feeling overwhelmed by mailing lists and wikis
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

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