IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-05-08
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [04:04:56] <mfbot>
[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=26962 * Tantek * (+396) added specific events for Wellington and Christchurch workshops
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- [04:48:49] <mfbot>
[[rel-me]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-me&diff=0&oldid=26963 * Tantek * (+218) added Joseph Smarr video on rel="me"
- [04:58:35] <mfbot>
[[rel-me]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-me&diff=0&oldid=26964 * Tantek * (+328) added Gavin Bell video on "What is your provenance?"
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- [11:43:01] <rff>
hi everyone
- [11:44:40] <rff>
about xfn: the subject of an xfn relation is always the current page/host ?
- [11:45:15] <rff>
more to the point: can I markup the "link/url/homepage" field in comments with xfn rels?
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- [11:45:26] <tantek_>
always
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- [11:45:49] <tantek>
in comments, no
- [11:46:02] <rff>
if I'd format the comments with mnimal hcard I could use hcard.url probably but if it was possible to just use xfn I'd be happier
- [11:46:12] <tantek>
comment authors can be marked up with hCard, with the link/url/homepage field with class="url" per hCard.
- [11:46:13] <rff>
tantek, thanks
- [11:46:23] <rff>
ah wonderful at least I'm in sync :)
- [11:46:43] <tantek>
np :)
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- [12:51:28] <MrTopf>
Hey there, I am wondering if there is a way to e.g. markup a list of images using Microformats. It would be useful for pointing at a location and say: Import all my photos from here or something along those lines.
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- [13:10:54] <bennewarde>
MrTopf: Not specifically for images. However, the image content could perhaps be marked up with hAtom to create a feed, and that could be imported
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- [13:16:32] <MrTopf>
BenWard: I was also thinking along those lines.. actually in the DataPortability group somebody wants to build an application which gets a pointer to somebody's photos. this might be received from a service catalog e.g. marked up as XRDS-Simple
- [13:16:49] <MrTopf>
the question then would be what the type is. Is it hAtom or hAtom+image?
- [13:17:13] <MrTopf>
because there might be many hAtom services then (actually maybe in this case it could even be RSS with image enclosures)
- [13:17:43] <BenWard>
well, it could still be hAtom. Either the image itself would be in the entry-content (or be the entry-content itself), or perhaps the img would be linked to with rel=enclosure?
- [13:18:30] <MrTopf>
one could also say, use hAtom or RSS whatever is available in the service catalog of that user
- [13:18:38] <MrTopf>
so maybe this is a way to got
- [13:18:46] <MrTopf>
maybe better than specifying a flickr API endpoint
- [13:20:26] <MrTopf>
I will propose that to him, thanks for your input :)
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- [13:31:03] <mfbot>
[[what-are-microformats ro]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats_ro&diff=0&oldid=26965 * Irina Tal * (+591)
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- [14:14:36] <riffraff>
hhi again
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- [14:18:23] <tantek>
BenWard, MrTopf hAtom + rel-enclosure makes sense for that use case.
- [14:19:13] <MrTopf>
yeah, I told him.. it would be good though if you could specify some type which describes that it's image enclosures
- [14:19:32] <MrTopf>
or mark it up somehow in an XRDS file..
- [14:19:43] <MrTopf>
Type could be http://purl.org/uF/hAtom/0.1/
- [14:20:01] <MrTopf>
too bad one does not have subtypes.. ;-)
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- [14:28:13] <tantek>
the image can be referenced via a hyperlink <a href>
- [14:28:27] <tantek>
use the "type" attribute on the a href to indicate the content-type of the image
- [14:28:58] <tantek>
no need to use XRDS or any external files, simple type hints like that have been in HTML for over 10 years
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- [15:39:44] <tommorris_>
MrTopf: the problem is the metadata. A list of images is pretty easy (<ol><li><img ... /></li>...</ol>), but it's the site-specific metadata
- [15:40:50] <tommorris_>
it may be better on a large scale (ie. a few thousand photos) to have some way of doing an API call, or perhaps getting with each image a pointer to a page containing meta-data
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- [15:42:02] <tommorris_>
ie. photowebsite.com/user/tom/photos/index returning a file listing all the photos, each one of which being a binary image file (JPEG etc.) and some kind of meta-data - XMP, plain old XML or maybe (X)HTML with microformats and other semantic annotations
- [15:42:16] <tommorris_>
anyway, /me is off to take the dog for a walk
- [15:43:11] <tommorris_>
And XRDS is the garden path to insanity, imho
- [15:43:52] <tommorris_>
dataportability being tied to XRDS is a major turn-off for me
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- [16:39:05] <mfbot>
[[User:Irina Tal]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Irina_Tal * Irina Tal * (+28)
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- [16:50:22] <MrTopf>
tommorris_: when I am thinking of e.g. flickr they coud actually add some metadata tags around each photo
- [16:50:43] <MrTopf>
ah, you wrote that :)
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- [17:01:36] <MrTopf>
tommorris_: why is this regarding XRDS? Seems that many people move to it (like opensocial)
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- [18:28:51] <JPatterson>
so. who loves data discovery around here? <grin/>
- [18:28:58] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild-pending]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-pending&diff=0&oldid=26966 * Chris Messina * (+100) Added Veer's Skinny.
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- [18:49:38] <jbond>
Had a question about discovery. Does uF have a good solution to auto-discovery of classes of uF HTML docs? eg. If I'm looking at a root home page, how should I discover the location of the AboutMe page with my Profile data in hCard?
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- [18:59:51] <tantek>
jbond what's the user scenarios?
- [19:02:46] <jbond>
User enters home page of their blog into a new site. Consuming app collects blog, finds <link> in the <head> pointing at the AboutMe profile page marked up with hCard.
- [19:03:11] <tantek>
no need to go to the invisible <link>
- [19:03:27] <tantek>
most blog home pages have a brief mention of the user's name
- [19:03:28] <jbond>
Or the link to the page containing XFN links to all their other profile pages. Or the link to the page containing their list of XFN marked up contacts
- [19:03:36] <tantek>
which is then linked to a page with more information
- [19:03:47] <tantek>
so you start by looking for a representative hCard on the URL provided by the user
- [19:03:49] <tantek>
use that
- [19:03:59] <tantek>
then if that hCard has a url+uid that points to a *different* URL
- [19:04:02] <tantek>
go get that
- [19:04:09] <tantek>
and read the representative hCard there
- [19:04:18] <tantek>
no invisible <head> metadata needed
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- [19:06:18] <MrTopf>
if rel=me links would have types that would be helpful (e.g. contact list, another profile, my images etc.)
- [19:06:36] <jbond>
It's those three cases, I'm particularly interested in. About Me page, YASN-Roll and Contact list. Agreed, the links don't have to be invisible (though they could be) but I feel the need for some kind of marker that says this link goes to this type of page.
- [19:06:39] <tantek>
only the destination page knows what it really is
- [19:06:47] <tantek>
so advisory types on links are not really that useful
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- [19:06:56] <tantek>
you have to go do a rel="me" transclusion anyway
- [19:07:04] <tantek>
or just ask the Google Social Graph API
- [19:07:14] <tantek>
given a URL, what are the other "me" URLs
- [19:07:37] <jbond>
Is there any parallel here with RSS Discovery? Since only the RSS file knows it's actually RSS.
- [19:07:52] <tantek>
in many ways RSS is a violation of DRY
- [19:08:07] <tantek>
there would be no need to discover the RSS if the page itself merely had hAtom
- [19:08:16] <jbond>
But clearly RSS discovery is useful and has worked
- [19:08:30] <tantek>
it's useful for an unnecessary increase in complexity
- [19:08:34] <tantek>
much simpler to just have one page
- [19:08:44] <tantek>
rather than two that require that "discovery" between them
- [19:09:33] <MrTopf>
but I don't want to load all those pages to discover what they contain.. I am a bit afraid about bad performance
- [19:09:37] <jbond>
But I don't particularly want to have the About Me page, YASN-Roll and Contact list all on the home page of my blog
- [19:10:15] <MrTopf>
I am also not sure I want to bind myself to some search engine
- [19:13:36] <tantek>
choose which you wish to optimize
- [19:13:43] <tantek>
if you want the independence, crawl it yourself
- [19:13:55] <tantek>
if you want the less code/maintenance, use the provided API
- [19:14:01] <tantek>
it's like frameworks
- [19:14:10] <tantek>
use someone else's, or write your own, your choice.
- [19:14:26] <tantek>
the algorithms are open and public as is the data, so you have that choice
- [19:15:08] <tantek>
or start with the convenience of calling someone else's API/framework, and then later decide if it is important enough to you to be independent of of someone else's API/framework and swap it out then with your own implementation.
- [19:15:16] <MrTopf>
I know but given you have a new user signing up you'd first need to crawl all his pages to find those services.. that's why I think that a central repository might be better or at least a limited set of those
- [19:15:22] <MrTopf>
be they marked up whatever way
- [19:15:48] <JPatterson>
i agree with tantek's point of using someone else's api, as a sort of scaffolding... as long as you can get out from under it down the road.
- [19:16:18] <MrTopf>
sure, but this API of course also would need to handle protected data then
- [19:16:31] <tantek>
not in common cases
- [19:16:46] <tantek>
start with just public data, that's sufficient to get started to build useful things
- [19:16:57] <tantek>
don't try to be 100% on day 1
- [19:17:02] <MrTopf>
I have enough cases where I would like to control how my identites are linked
- [19:17:04] <JPatterson>
thats probably a good point
- [19:17:08] <MrTopf>
so it needs to be protected to some extent
- [19:17:11] <tantek>
ship early, ship often
- [19:17:34] <JPatterson>
ive long advocated "try a lot of things, since whihc ones make it to the next generation"
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- [19:18:57] <MrTopf>
I agree with all this but I still would like to think a step further.. I already started implementing stuff like the pydataportability lib
- [19:20:03] <MrTopf>
but anyway, trying out things cannot hurt anyway. so I will still go the XRDS route.. if it's adopted by somebody will be seen. For me implementing this is at least easier than crawling
- [19:20:18] <MrTopf>
it might actually be populated by some sort of external API like SGAPI
- [19:20:43] <MrTopf>
but I gotta go, should not stay everyday in the office til late night
- [19:20:52] <MrTopf>
good conversation, see ya soon!
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- [19:24:18] <jbond>
My experience with the SG-API has been a bit mixed so far. It's inevitably out of date and incomplete. And it's still got some parsing problems.
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- [19:26:04] <jbond>
I'm having some success reading XFN rel="me" pages directly but one of the problems has been finding them, or getting the user to tell me where they are
- [19:27:39] <jbond>
We could do with a bit of evangelism to get bloggers to put an XFN marked YASN-Roll in a sidebar of their blogs.
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- [19:32:04] <tantek>
jbond developers are already doing that on user profiles
- [19:32:14] <tantek>
e.g. Pownce, Digg etc. "Other Profiles" sections
- [19:32:17] <tantek>
with seamless UI
- [19:32:23] <tantek>
no need for the user to know about XFN
- [19:32:35] <jbond>
Right. Absolutely.
- [19:33:00] <tantek>
see: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists#Services_with_XFN_rel.3D.22me.22_to_multiple_external_sites
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- [19:33:35] <jbond>
Hence the question about discovery. If that list is on a different page to the user's "home page" how do I find it?
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- [19:36:41] <jbond>
Of course in all those examples it is on the same page. ;)
- [19:37:11] <jbond>
Should add MyBlogLog to that page as well. I've been trying to get Mashable to do the same thing.
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