IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-06-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:12:45] <mfbot> [[hcards-and-pages]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcards-and-pages * Tantek * (+3262) drafted starting with material from [[representative-hcard]]
  2. [00:13:16] <mfbot> [[representative-hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=representative-hcard&diff=0&oldid=27272 * Tantek * (+68) hcards and pages
  3. [00:14:27] <mfbot> [[hcard-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-faq&diff=0&oldid=27273 * Tantek * (+127) see also hCards and pages
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  5. [00:21:09] <mfbot> [[hcard-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-faq&diff=0&oldid=27274 * Tantek * (-4) fix blog URL
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  8. [00:37:55] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=27275 * Tantek * (+806) hAtom misuses address element
  9. [00:39:46] <mfbot> [[hcards-and-pages]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcards-and-pages&diff=0&oldid=27276 * Tantek * (+85) hAtom misuses address element
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  22. [03:31:27] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  25. [03:40:29] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip <http://bluesmoon.info> & improves performance at Yahoo! & likes food & hacking & lives in the valley
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  42. [10:01:32] <mfbot> [[introduction-lt]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/introduction-lt * Aurelijus * (+2291)
  43. [10:02:33] <mfbot> [[Main Page-lt]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-lt&diff=0&oldid=27277 * Aurelijus * (+3)
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  45. [10:08:45] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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  54. [10:19:31] <mfbot> [[User:Aurelijus]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Aurelijus * Aurelijus * (+428)
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  58. [11:05:50] <mfbot> [[Main Page-lt]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-lt&diff=0&oldid=27278 * Aurelijus * (-42)
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  62. [11:32:12] <mfbot> [[hcard-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-ja&diff=0&oldid=27279 * Vantguarde * (+1235) Sync: 09:02, 2 May 2008
  63. [11:44:48] <mfbot> [[hcard-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-ja&diff=0&oldid=27280 * Vantguarde * (-200)
  64. [11:50:25] <mfbot> [[hcard-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-ja&diff=0&oldid=27281 * Vantguarde * (+2) adr tel email types -
  65. [11:54:59] * cygri (n=cygri@83.141.79.111) Quit ()
  66. [11:57:11] <mfbot> [[hcard-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-ja&diff=0&oldid=27282 * Vantguarde * (+429) adr tel email types - added a note that many subtypes are not be able to use in Japanese due to the "human readable" principle. that really sucks...
  67. [12:02:37] <mfbot> [[hcard-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-ja&diff=0&oldid=27283 * Vantguarde * (+340) "n" の推測処理 - added a note that this opitimization doesn't work for Japanese names and authors need to explicitly markup their names with given-name and family-name.
  68. [12:14:18] <mfbot> [[hcard-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-ja&diff=0&oldid=27284 * Vantguarde * (+184) "n" の推測処理 -
  69. [12:14:49] <mfbot> [[hcard-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-ja&diff=0&oldid=27285 * Vantguarde * (+8) プロパティリスト -
  70. [12:15:15] <mfbot> [[hcard-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-ja&diff=0&oldid=27286 * Vantguarde * (-7) プロパティリスト -
  71. [12:33:38] <mfbot> [[hcard-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-ja&diff=0&oldid=27287 * Vantguarde * (-98) adr tel email types -
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  73. [12:59:45] <mfbot> [[User:Aurelijus]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Aurelijus&diff=0&oldid=27288 * Aurelijus * (+97) <span class="fn">Aurelijus Valeiša</span> -
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  76. [13:30:32] <jibot> julianstahnke is a German front-end dev for Last.fm and lives in London and wants a play button next to every mentioning of an audio track on the internet
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  79. [14:06:49] <bogdanlazarsb> are there some plugins that detect microformats for opera or for internet explorer ? like tails export in firefox
  80. [14:09:41] * alsuren (i=dl325@pip.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk) has joined #microformats
  81. [14:17:20] <alsuren> This has probably been brought up thousands of times before, but my google-craft is finding very little...
  82. [14:18:34] <alsuren> Can someone explain why you can't make parsers use strptime to parse dates?
  83. [14:21:24] <alsuren> something like <span class="strptime: %d %m %Y " > 16 03 2008 </span>
  84. [14:23:21] * BobJonkman (n=BobJonkm@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  85. [14:23:58] <alsuren> I mean: you could parse that in about 3 lines of python or php, and can be extended to be human-readable in any language (see http://docs.python.org/lib/module-time.html )
  86. [14:24:26] <alsuren> (table about half way down the page)
  87. [14:26:38] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Leaving...")
  88. [14:28:20] <mfbot> [[machine-data]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=machine-data&diff=0&oldid=27289 * TobyInk * (+866) Other Proposals - Correction re data pattern.
  89. [14:29:37] <alsuren> Also, it satisfies your "don't duplicate data, and don't hide data": All you're doing is telling the parser stuff that a human would be able to infer easily
  90. [14:34:42] <mfbot> [[hcards-and-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcards-and-pages&diff=0&oldid=27290 * TobyInk * (+201) Implementations
  91. [14:45:59] <bogdanlazarsb> if you write .. class="strptime something something something" the browser reads like 4 classes i think..
  92. [14:47:09] * marclaporte (n=Marc_Lap@cpe-076-182-096-022.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  93. [14:47:10] <jibot> marclaporte is Marc Laporte from Tiki CMS/Groupware
  94. [14:49:34] <alsuren> bogdanlazarsb: there is already class="fn n" or something (to be honest, I'm really not a web developer: I'm a python programmer, so I don't know the limitations of browsers)
  95. [14:50:31] <gsnedders> alsuren: Yeah, but in that case, the order doesn't matter
  96. [14:50:44] <gsnedders> alsuren: "fn n" and "n fn" have the same meaning
  97. [14:51:24] <gsnedders> alsuren: "%d %Y strptime: %m" means something totally different to "strptime: %d %m %Y"
  98. [14:52:09] <gsnedders> alsuren: You have to be able to extract the meaning having randomly sorted the list of space separated classes
  99. [14:53:49] <alsuren> gsnedders: oh: I thought that microformats were meant to be read by spider scripts or something, which can avoid the limitations of browsers
  100. [14:54:11] <gsnedders> alsuren: The spiders still need to follow the same specs as the browsers
  101. [14:54:16] <alsuren> </naive>
  102. [14:54:36] <gsnedders> alsuren: It doesn't matter what the user agent is: the order of things in @class is irrelevant
  103. [14:55:07] * alsuren reads the spec
  104. [14:56:05] <gsnedders> (oh, and regarding specs: HTML 5 is far more useful than HTML 4, as the latter is so vague)
  105. [14:56:53] <alsuren> so you would need something horrible like <span class="strptime: 1%d 2%m 3%Y " > 16 03 2008 </span>?
  106. [14:57:23] <gsnedders> alsuren: I suppose you could do something like that.
  107. [14:58:16] <gsnedders> alsuren: It'd be easier to just use an RFC3339 date in @class though, or abbr@title
  108. [15:00:24] <alsuren> gsnedders: apart from the fact that it requires duplication and/or hiding of information, and breaks screen readers
  109. [15:00:41] <gsnedders> alsuren: I am aware.
  110. [15:02:18] <alsuren> tell you what: shall I see if I can write a parser in 5 lines of python and post it in the discussion section of the wiki?
  111. [15:03:04] * gsnedders has been so out of touch of µf for so long he can't answer that :P
  112. [15:04:00] <alsuren> I'll go for something of the form <span class="strptime _%d_%m_%Y_" > 16 03 2008 </span> and just do it. Shouldn't break anything
  113. [15:23:41] * azazul (n=azazul@84.237.165.50) Quit ("Leaving")
  114. [15:42:01] <bogdanlazarsb> ok, so who's helping me ? are there or are there not widgets or plugins for other browsers than firefox (like opera or IE) ? :)
  115. [16:00:32] <alsuren> bogdanlazarsb: are you talking about desktop/dashboard style widgets?
  116. [16:03:12] <alsuren> if so, then dashboard=safari(webkit) widgets; there are "opera widgets"; konqueror has an extensions system, but nobody uses it
  117. [16:04:06] <alsuren> most browsers use the netscape compatible plugin system (certainly on linux, anyway)
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  120. [16:11:03] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27291 * DavidLaban * (+1779) Discussion - Proposed use of strptime
  121. [16:13:07] <alsuren> gsnedders: 4 lines of code for encoding, 5 lines for decoding, as promised, and posted to the wiki :D
  122. [16:15:08] * cygri (n=cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) has joined #microformats
  123. [16:16:30] <gsnedders> alsuren: Five lines? Peh!
  124. [16:20:25] <alsuren> 'tis a good compromise: shorter than the 20-odd line regexp for the existing format, and much clearer/more robust than the 1-liner that I *could* have posted.
  125. [16:37:53] <tantek> alsuren, the larger problem is that you are asking web authors to think like programmers, which severely limits the number of web authors which will be able to use the technique
  126. [16:38:12] <tantek> in general, any publishing method tw<trequires the author to think like a programmer is a non-starter
  127. [16:38:57] <tantek> much more of a barrier than simply using RFC3339, and that barrier is a far worse tradeoff than the duplication
  128. [16:41:28] <alsuren> tantek: I guess we could have some friendly names for common formats
  129. [16:43:21] <tantek> across how many cultures and languages?
  130. [16:43:39] <alsuren> the underlying idea behind my proposal is that human readable dates aren't *that* difficult to parse reliably, as long as we know what format they're in
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  133. [16:53:01] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27292 * Tantek * (+1078) moved alternative proposal to separate section, noted problems
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  148. [19:02:53] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip <http://bluesmoon.info> & improves performance at Yahoo! & likes food & hacking & lives in the valley
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  154. [19:40:29] <jibot> tommorris is a semantic web geek (with a philosophy degree, naturally), lives in East Sussex, UK, is something of a strange quark (strangeness value: -1) and blogs at http://tommorris.org
  155. [19:48:19] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@87-194-56-45.bethere.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  156. [19:48:19] <jibot> julianstahnke is a German front-end dev for Last.fm and lives in London and wants a play button next to every mentioning of an audio track on the internet
  157. [19:49:16] * illustir (n=alper@s55912056.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  158. [19:50:03] <tommorris> just seen this - http://www.profy.com/ - that logo looks *familiar* ;)
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  162. [19:57:48] <jibot> bear is located near Philadelphia, PA and a Python and Ruby coder and the messaging/events/standards grunt for Seesmic
  163. [19:58:15] <mfbot> [[recipe-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=27293 * Yde * (+7) Schema proposal - Changed formatting to make the list more compact and easier to read.
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  167. [20:14:48] <jibot> gsnedders is a mad teenager from Scotland who occasionally blogs at <http://geoffers.uni.cc/>
  168. [20:21:43] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27294 * TobyInk * (+240) strtime instructions as class names - HTML 4.01 spec ref
  169. [21:09:02] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27295 * TobyInk * (+290) strtime instructions as class names -
  170. [21:16:38] <mfbot> [[recipe-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=27296 * Yde * (+57) Additional Suggestions -
  171. [21:39:33] * cygri (n=cygri@83.141.79.111) has joined #microformats
  172. [21:56:54] * Hey_neken (n=kaxero@215.Red-213-96-129.staticIP.rima-tde.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  173. [22:17:58] * bogdanlazarsb (i=bogdanla@88-158-221-198.Asconet.ro) has left #microformats
  174. [22:59:06] * CloCkWeRX (n=Rob@lnk87.lns7-adl.adsl.esc.net.au) has joined #microformats
  175. [23:02:16] * cygri (n=cygri@83.141.79.111) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  176. [23:03:53] * illustir (n=alper@s55912056.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ()
  177. [23:25:27] * bluesmoon (n=philip@c-69-181-144-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  178. [23:25:27] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip <http://bluesmoon.info> & improves performance at Yahoo! & likes food & hacking & lives in the valley
  179. [23:32:47] * illustir (n=alper@s55912056.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  180. [23:38:32] * illustir (n=alper@s55912056.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ()

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