IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-06-23
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:09:19] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
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- [01:27:23] <jibot>
rmarkwhite is Robert Mark White
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- [01:41:52] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [02:02:10] <jibot>
rmarkwhite is Robert Mark White
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- [02:03:35] <mfbot>
[[review-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-formats&diff=0&oldid=27387 * BkmQhu * (+12698)
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- [02:38:28] <greenbes>
Hi. I have begun work on a new microformat, and I'd like to know what the community guidelines/practices are.
- [02:38:47] <greenbes>
Should I just stick up a page on the wiki, or does the community prefer pre-vetting on the mailing list first?
- [02:40:23] <greenbes>
Is there an approval/acceptance process? I looked around the wiki, but didn't see anything about it. I'll happily RTFM if you show me where the FM is. :-)
- [02:42:42] <greenbes>
Aha! I found introductory material cleverly hidden on the main page. You are tricky devils, all.
- [02:44:20] <greenbes>
Thanks!
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- [07:07:29] <mfbot>
[[review-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-formats&diff=0&oldid=27388 * RyanKing * (-12698) Reverted edit of BkmQhu, changed back to last version by TobyInk
- [07:08:40] <mfbot>
[[Talk:location-tagging]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:location-tagging * EegH17 * (+12539)
- [07:08:46] <mfbot>
[[Talk:music-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:music-examples * RwwRvc * (+12539)
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- [07:20:16] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [08:03:38] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [08:29:13] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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- [09:17:17] <jibot>
mn_francis is a web developer for Yahoo! Europe; http://cackhanded.net/ is his personal site
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- [10:33:26] <tommorris>
anyone see this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/06/removing_microformats_from_bbc.shtml ?
- [10:40:02] <Phae>
ofc. ;)
- [10:40:09] <Phae>
i just linked it to my thread on mf-dev
- [10:53:21] <mfbot>
[[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27389 * Dracos * (+366) Add my opinion on datetime in class
- [10:56:57] <tommorris>
I don't like it, but I dislike it less than inaccessible pages
- [10:57:17] <Phae>
sure.
- [10:57:31] <Phae>
extending html 4 is never going to be especially pretty, if you want to keep it all valid
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BenWard is a Web Developer at Yahoo! Europe and an admin at microformats.org and based in the UK and better defined at http://ben-ward.co.uk
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mn_francis is a web developer for Yahoo! Europe; http://cackhanded.net/ is his personal site
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tommorris is a semantic web geek (with a philosophy degree, naturally), lives in East Sussex, UK, is something of a strange quark (strangeness value: -1) and blogs at http://tommorris.org
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csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
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mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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[[hresume-profile]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-profile&diff=0&oldid=27390 * TobyInk * (+247) Links weren't working properly, adjusted to use MediaWiki syntax; add "include" class which is typically used in hResumes, so should be in the profile.
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[[hresume-profile]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-profile&diff=0&oldid=27391 * TobyInk * (+1) Close bracket
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[[User:JordanClark]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:JordanClark&diff=0&oldid=27392 * JordanClark * (+123) Changed body text and links.
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[[User:JordanClark]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:JordanClark&diff=0&oldid=27393 * JordanClark * (-87)
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rmarkwhite is Robert Mark White
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bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[[hresume-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=27394 * JordanClark * (+126) Added myself to the top of list in "New Examples" section.
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pjkix is PJ Khalil a Web Developer in SF and can be found online at http://pjkix.com
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[[xfolk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk&diff=0&oldid=27395 * Ashaszin * (+102) Many more examples -
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[[xfolk]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk&diff=0&oldid=27396 * Ashaszin * (+42) In the wild -
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[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) deleted "Talk:music-examples": spam
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[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) deleted "Talk:location-tagging": spam
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drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer at http://edgeofmyseat.com
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NatBat is Natalie Downe and can be found online at http://notes.natbat.net
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[[irc-people]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=27397 * NatBat * (+42) added new user
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[[User:Natalie Downe]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Natalie_Downe * NatBat * (+79) new user
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- [20:49:59] <tommorris>
welcome to microformats.org, NatBat!
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tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [21:50:10] <tantek>
greetings. i've been thinking about the idea of a regular microformats dinner for community members (old and new) to meet IRL and discuss whatever is on their mind regarding microformats.
- [21:50:42] <Phae>
in SF, i assume
- [21:51:11] <tantek>
Wherever there is sufficient local critical mass
- [21:51:22] <tantek>
SF is an obvious place to start
- [21:51:38] <tantek>
then again, London has had Pub Stan˾qs for quite some time, and nothing resembling that exists in SF.
- [21:51:48] <Phae>
i've been wondering if drew and i can turn these vevents into regular things. we're thinking of when to do our 3rd at the moment.
- [21:52:33] <tantek>
The community and adoption have grown considerably over the last year, and news of adoptions (or challenges, like BBC) come up frequently enough that there would be no shortage of new topics to discuss on a weekly basis.
- [21:52:45] <Phae>
yeah
- [21:53:14] <Phae>
weekly might be pushing it. we find with pub standards that the monthly one has a good turn out, but our one in between each one doesn't do as well
- [21:53:24] <Phae>
it's not easy to get people to commit that regularly.
- [21:54:00] <Phae>
but yeah - try it :)
- [21:54:00] <tantek>
from having spoken to folks, the idea is to make it so that people know it is happening regularly and that they can come whichever ones they can make it to
- [21:54:09] <Phae>
yeah
- [21:54:35] <tantek>
Tuesdays 6:30pm is what we are looking at, with a rotating venue to keep it interesting
- [21:55:18] <hober>
I'll float the idea down here (SD), see if there's critical mass
- [21:55:19] <Phae>
ok. again - our PS experience is better turn out at the same venue, lower when we move. but it's no harm trying out a few. might find somwhere perfect for all the time
- [21:55:34] <Phae>
but that could also be grumpy british people
- [21:55:36] <Phae>
not liking change
- [21:55:53] <hober>
I think there were ~50% locals at the one we had while you were @ the CSS WG, tantek
- [21:55:56] <tantek>
LOL. the venues we choose will likely be fairly close to each other, and all within easy reach of mass transit
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- [21:56:10] <Phae>
yeah.
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- [21:56:34] <tantek>
and if we happen to pick venues with wifi then perhaps dinners happening within the same time zone might be able to share a bit of the cross-talk
- [21:56:53] <Phae>
yeah, perhaps.
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- [21:57:39] <tantek>
though the whole "laptops out while you are eating dinner" thing is more of an SF thing I think. I haven't really seen it much elsewhere (though would be happy to be proven wrong)
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- [21:58:07] <Phae>
i think it depends on the agenda
- [21:58:53] <tantek>
Tuesdays in general seem to work well here in SF - I wonder if Tuesdays would work well in other cities
- [21:59:44] <Phae>
we have so many user groups going on around here. most nights are something. tuesday is good tho - quieter - easier for getting tables for food in larger numbers
- [22:00:00] <Phae>
it's fairly practical
- [22:00:05] <tantek>
there really is something in the news every week about microformats: http://news.google.com/news?q=microformats&ie=UTF-8&scoring=n
- [22:00:28] <tantek>
love it: "Turn boring old contact information into exciting hCards" from http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/1443821/fast_and_easy_website_tuneups/
- [22:00:28] <Phae>
yep. :)
- [22:01:43] <tantek>
Phae did you see or have any thoughts about my "datevalue" and "timevalue" longhand brainstorm?
- [22:01:58] <Phae>
er - on the wiki? no. not had time
- [22:02:08] <tantek>
no just a blurb in IRC - it was a fleeting thought
- [22:02:14] <tantek>
I need to do a proper writeup on the wiki
- [22:02:18] <Phae>
oh. no, i haven't seen that then
- [22:03:16] <tantek>
it's the combination of an extension of value-excerpt thinking, and an inversion of the fn shorthand thinking (into longhand thinking) in order to allow marking up separate elements for the date and for the time for a single overall datetime property.
- [22:03:25] <tantek>
no change in semantics
- [22:03:36] <tantek>
(mutation, addition, or subtraction)
- [22:03:46] <Phae>
m'k. i think i need examples :)
- [22:03:57] <Phae>
i can think about things better when i see a code snip
- [22:05:18] <tantek>
fair enough. :) basically I've observed that content publishers often place the date and the time separately in presentation, and whenever I've been asked how to mark that up with, it's always bothered me a bit to have to suggest that they pick the more specific of the two (the time) and use the abbr-datetime pattern accordingly, because of the duplication of the date information in a location that may be "distant" from th
- [22:05:53] <Phae>
your very long reply got cut off ""distant" from th..."
- [22:05:56] <tantek>
I'll try to write up some examples
- [22:06:05] <tantek>
... "distant" from the human visible date.
- [22:06:19] <Phae>
okay
- [22:06:22] <Phae>
that sounds interesting
- [22:06:25] <tantek>
I might even write a blog post about this
- [22:06:46] <tantek>
as it's been something I've been background-thinking for some time, wondering how "bad" would it be, what were the downsides etc.
- [22:07:11] <Phae>
yeah. seems like we're doing a lot of talk about "what's the least bad" thing to do all th time.
- [22:07:54] <tantek>
And my original blog post on "Human vs. ISO8601 dates problem solved" is over 3 years old now and could use an update with experience gained etc.
- [22:08:08] <Phae>
okay, sounds good.
- [22:08:30] <tantek>
I still believe that abbr works just fine for plain *dates*
- [22:08:34] <tantek>
(without time)
- [22:08:51] <Phae>
it's got perfectly legitimate specific uses
- [22:08:52] <tantek>
e.g. <abbr title="2008-06-23">6/23</abbr>
- [22:08:56] <Phae>
no one quibbles that
- [22:09:09] <Phae>
it's when it gets a bit more... abstract...
- [22:09:09] <tantek>
or even <abbr title="2008-06-23">today</abbr>
- [22:09:35] <Phae>
and then it all gets rather grey and i just feel we should allow people to express that data in the way that is most appropriate to their use case
- [22:09:41] <Phae>
that's all i really care about
- [22:11:43] <csarven>
Would anyone like to give this http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-June/012156.html a shot?
- [22:13:08] <Phae>
not for me. i gotta go. nudge drew - isn't that up his street?
- [22:13:16] <tantek>
I'm leaning towards ditching all use (recommended and otherwise) of object for the include pattern
- [22:13:29] <Phae>
:) ciao guys.
- [22:13:32] * Phae (n=user@82-44-60-36.cable.ubr01.mort.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit ("Leaving.")
- [22:13:33] <tantek>
later Phae!
- [22:14:20] <tantek>
csarven, it appears we may have made an error with the precise semantics of object with respect to the include pattern - which would mean we would only have the <a href> include method left
- [22:14:54] <csarven>
Right.
- [22:15:00] <tantek>
the problem is that for our include purpose we actually want to do a transclusion, where the content is incorporated
- [22:15:12] <tantek>
rather than an embedding, where the content gets its own "space" (frame, context, etc.)
- [22:15:34] <tantek>
and HTML lacks transclusion semantics
- [22:16:10] <tantek>
so we attempted to create transclusion semantics via a variant of embedding semantics (object)
- [22:17:10] <tantek>
but since it seems more and more implementations want to always treat object as embedding and not allow for any other uses, there is little opportunity to create transclusion semantics there
- [22:17:56] <tantek>
thus we attempt to create transclusion semantics via a variant of hyperlink semantics (a href) which has better "downlevel" behavior by useragents that don't understand the transclusion variant
- [22:19:01] <csarven>
Is transclusion necessary? Isn't the use of <a> sufficient both semantically and for the purposes of include-pattern in microformats?
- [22:19:17] <tantek>
the include-pattern *is* semantic transclusion
- [22:19:39] <tantek>
including a chunk of data from one place in the document into another place in the document is what transclusion is!
- [22:23:37] <csarven>
In this case, it is for the microformats parser. As you said, there is no way to do transclusions in HTML. The HTML itself does not necessarily need to do a transclusion. Here we are trying to grab it for the microformats parser. What I'm trying to clarify is whether <a> is sufficient.
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- [22:25:57] <tantek>
csarven, parsing is just one implementation of the semantics that we are introducing
- [22:26:46] <tantek>
I think the <a href> semantic transclusion method is sufficient, but IIRC there may be outstanding issues to address. Ben Ward is more familiar with the current state of said issues and their resolutions.
- [22:27:22] <csarven>
IIRC one of the earlier reasons for the include-pattern was to minimise redundant information in HTML by referring to the canonical version.
- [22:27:51] <csarven>
e.g. hCards in hResume
- [22:30:30] <tantek>
only indirectly
- [22:31:06] <tantek>
the primary reason was to adapt to the existing content publishing practice of putting some information only in one place, and not all over the place
- [22:31:17] <tantek>
focus on *existing content publishing practice*
- [22:31:32] <tantek>
the DRY benefits are secondary / incidental. not primary.
- [22:31:45] <tantek>
the particular example being resumes
- [22:31:59] <tantek>
and a person's name being place only *once* on a resume, at the top
- [22:34:10] <csarven>
If that is the primary reason, I fail to see why this is something microformats should solve if HTML is not equipped to do so (re: transclusion). (I may be overlooking something here) The only case for the 'transclusion' that I can see is for the parser.
- [22:35:26] <tantek>
it is necessary for valid hCards in hResume as you indicated
- [22:35:57] <tantek>
and arguing "only case ... I can see" is never a good basis for an argument
- [22:35:59] <tantek>
absence of a negative is not a proof
- [22:37:13] <tantek>
first logical flaw documented on the wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/logical-flaws#Absence_of_a_negative_is_not_proof
- [22:37:19] <csarven>
Not an argument. I'm just trying to fill in the gaps. Like I said, I may be overlooking something here as the original intention of 'transclusion' in microformats is for something other then the parser - inwhich I don't understand why this is something microformats should solve if HTML is unable to do so.
- [22:37:57] <tantek>
microformats focus primarily on semantics
- [22:38:04] <tantek>
parsing is only *one* thing you can do with semantics
- [22:38:21] <tantek>
the implementation is not the same as the meaning
- [22:38:49] <tantek>
also, the phrase " why this is something microformats should solve if HTML is unable to do so." makes no sense
- [22:39:30] <tantek>
what microformats focus on solving is not determined by "if HTML is unable to do so" nor the negation thereof
- [22:40:05] <csarven>
I was responding to your suggestion: [18:35:02] <tantek> the primary reason was to adapt to the existing content publishing practice of putting some information only in one place, and not all over the place
- [22:40:54] <tantek>
regardless of what you were responding to, that phrase didn't make any sense
- [22:41:06] <csarven>
I'll correct my grammar
- [22:41:08] <tantek>
that phrase contains assumptions about what microformats should/should not solve which are false
- [22:41:56] <tantek>
the question of what microformats should / should not solve is answered by http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats
- [22:41:59] <csarven>
include-pattern is for the parser. Can we agree on this?
- [22:42:26] <tantek>
csarven see above. include-pattern is for expressing a semantic that maps to existing content publishing practices.
- [22:42:49] <tantek>
expressing that semantic helps anything parsing semantics as any expression of semantics does
- [22:42:53] <tantek>
but that is an *effect*
- [22:42:56] <tantek>
not the "for"
- [22:43:15] <tantek>
we're not here driven by parsers
- [22:43:20] <csarven>
I understand that.
- [22:43:42] <csarven>
However, would you be able to tell me the purpose of include-pattern without considering the effect?
- [22:44:02] <tantek>
i don't understand what point you are trying to make csarven
- [22:44:16] <tantek>
you asked for the reason for include-pattern, and I gave it.
- [22:45:26] <csarven>
As I understand it, include-pattern is for the parser. Whether it is an effect or not is not the point because we can't consider include-pattern in isolation as it is intended to be flag for some parser.
- [22:45:56] <tantek>
actually, whether it is an effect or not *is* the point
- [22:46:17] <tantek>
because those that design directly for parsers have come up with all sorts of formats that are easy to parse, and very bad for content publishing
- [22:46:33] <tantek>
the focus matters
- [22:46:56] <tantek>
microformats is not the place for focusing on things primarily for parsing
- [22:47:06] <csarven>
What I'm trying to say is that <a> is sufficient for the transclusion effect because include-pattern is eventually for the parser. We've covered that 'transclusion' can't be done in HTML (hence, not directly available for the human without an external processor/parser)
- [22:47:07] <tantek>
microformats focus more on content publishing patterns
- [22:47:41] * epeus (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-67ff40963655a051) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [22:47:45] <tantek>
but there is no reason to make such a roundabout statement
- [22:48:03] <tantek>
<a href> appears to be sufficient for semantic transclusion
- [22:48:12] <tantek>
with the use of the include-pattern
- [22:48:23] <tantek>
no need to discuss parsers at all
- [22:48:32] <csarven>
Alright.
- [22:48:40] <tantek>
and the fact that you are attempting to think of it in a parser-centric fashion should raise a red-flag
- [22:49:05] <tantek>
parser-centric thinking leads to poor content formats and content-unfriendly schemas
- [22:49:25] <csarven>
I brought up the parsers because you mentioned the publishing practices
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- [22:53:28] <mfbot>
[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=27398 * Tantek * (+398) microformats weekly meetup dinner, added a bit more hCalendar markup
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- [22:55:04] <mfbot>
[[event-template]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/event-template * Tantek * (+29)
- [22:55:55] <mfbot>
[[logical-flaws]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=logical-flaws&diff=0&oldid=27399 * Tantek * (+14)
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- [22:57:27] <csarven>
tantek Can we ditch <object>? If yes, when?
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- [22:58:33] <tantek>
I'm leaning towards ditching <object> as an instance of the include-pattern
- [22:58:40] <tantek>
I would like to hear others' opinions
- [22:58:41] <csarven>
How to proceed: will you reply back to the mailing list? or wait for others to respond? Can I modify the Wiki entry?
- [22:58:42] <csarven>
Right
- [22:58:53] * charlenopires (n=charleno@189.82.254.13) has joined #microformats
- [22:59:03] <tantek>
the way to proceed is to use the wiki
- [22:59:20] <tantek>
in this case since this is an issue regarding the include pattern, start with include-pattern-issues
- [22:59:35] <tantek>
see if this issue is raised or not, if not, add it, along with your proposed resolution
- [22:59:55] <csarven>
We could move the Object into its own page or perhaps under -issues for archival.
- [22:59:59] <tantek>
then others can add their +/-1 with their name accordingly on the proposed resolution, and/or offer other proposed resolutions
- [23:00:28] <tantek>
once it appears the issue has a fairly good consensus resolution, then the editor should update the spec accordingly
- [23:00:39] <tantek>
but start with /wiki/include-pattern-issues
- [23:00:56] <tantek>
that's the right place to capture this sort of thing
- [23:00:58] <tantek>
not the mailing list
- [23:01:11] <tantek>
mailing lists are very poor for discussing/resolving issues in any sort of documentable way
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- [23:11:31] <csarven>
tantek Thanks
- [23:11:52] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-06-23-weekly-meetup-dinner]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2008-06-23-weekly-meetup-dinner * Tantek * (+4198) drafted
- [23:17:28] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-06-23-weekly-meetup-dinner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-06-23-weekly-meetup-dinner&diff=0&oldid=27400 * EdwardOConnor * (+16) weekly meetup - I'm looking into getting the San Diego one going
- [23:17:29] <pjkix>
nice, but will there be more cupcakes? :P
- [23:17:52] <pjkix>
btw, tantek you got a link to some of those pics from friday?
- [23:18:07] <tantek>
hey pj
- [23:18:26] <tantek>
the availability of cupcakes depends on the venue
- [23:18:41] <tantek>
feel free to add venue suggestions to http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2008-06-23-weekly-meetup-dinner
- [23:19:22] <pjkix>
cool, i don't have any preference really, just happy to meet up
- [23:19:57] <tantek>
add yourself to the attendees from the bday dinner! http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2008-06-20-3rd-bday-dinner-sf#attendees
- [23:22:54] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-06-20-3rd-bday-dinner-sf]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-06-20-3rd-bday-dinner-sf&diff=0&oldid=27401 * PJKix * (+27) attendees - - adding myself to the attendees list :)
- [23:24:56] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-91f0732d283c0198) has joined #microformats
- [23:31:11] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-06-23-weekly-meetup-dinner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-06-23-weekly-meetup-dinner&diff=0&oldid=27402 * Tantek * (+21) made Chaat Cafe the current choice, unless another more popular venue shows up
- [23:31:42] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-06-23-weekly-meetup-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-06-23-weekly-meetup-dinner&diff=0&oldid=27403 * Tantek * (+6)
- [23:32:18] <mfbot>
[[events-template]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-template&diff=0&oldid=27404 * Tantek * (+23)
- [23:33:44] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-06-23-weekly-meetup-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-06-23-weekly-meetup-dinner&diff=0&oldid=27405 * Tantek * (+2)
- [23:35:00] <mfbot>
[[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=27406 * Csarven * (+1632) Proposal to remove <object> and mention of the actual behaviour for a browser
- [23:35:44] <csarven>
Is the Wiki able to send an email on Watched entries?
- [23:35:58] <tantek>
I don't think so
- [23:36:33] <csarven>
How do you find out about Wiki changes when you are not on IRC?
- [23:37:22] <csarven>
By visiting the Watchlist I suppose everytime.
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- [23:39:31] <tantek>
I check the Recent Changes page
- [23:39:32] <jibot>
AMathews is a GSoC student working on the joys of SVG filters
- [23:39:43] <tantek>
also, IRC logs :D
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