IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-07-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  11. [05:39:40] <tobyink> @Amorphous - yes, the HTML spec is ambiguous about how many profile URIs are allowed in the profile attribute.
  12. [05:40:10] <tobyink> But more recent specs assume that multiple profiles are allowed.
  13. [05:41:20] * Amorphous wonders if the ambiguity vanished with xhtml(2)
  14. [05:41:26] <tobyink> e.g. XMDP <http://gmpg.org/xmdp/description> describes the use of multiple profiles.
  15. [05:41:39] <Amorphous> but at least html5 does away with the profile uri
  16. [05:41:51] <tobyink> XHTML2 allows multiple profiles, but has a different syntax (<link rel="profile">) IIRC
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  18. [05:42:18] <Amorphous> ah ok that would be allowed in html4 too
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  20. [05:45:25] <Amorphous> as there is no widespread automated use of the profile uri, i guess when one wants to output safely validating html4 using http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080610/structured.html#linkTypes for the profile uri might be the best idea
  21. [05:46:55] <tobyink> GRDDL is a reasonably widespread use of the profile URI
  22. [05:48:18] <Amorphous> is there actually any usable application for that (besides proof of concepts)?
  23. [05:48:59] <tobyink> Re
  24. [05:49:02] <tobyink> redland
  25. [05:49:47] <Amorphous> the html5 spec refers to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions which lists rel="profile" so one can use that
  26. [05:50:14] <Amorphous> for listing individual grddl or xdmp profiles
  27. [05:50:37] <tobyink> debate is still ongoing on the html5 mailing list about whether @profile will be brought back (and thus rel=profile done away with)
  28. [05:51:02] <tobyink> hixie is against @profile, but may be brow-beaten into accepting it given that he's working within the w3c and grddl wants it
  29. [05:51:13] <tobyink> anyway. gotta go
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  41. [07:38:57] <tommorris> Amorphous: the rel=profile thing is mostly there for future-proofing, in case @profile is removed. we are hoping it won't become necessary
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  51. [09:39:22] <mfbot> [[hcard-ru]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-ru&diff=0&oldid=27889 * DinamytE * (+145)
  52. [09:39:53] <mfbot> [[hcard-ru]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-ru&diff=0&oldid=27890 * DinamytE * (+1)
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  63. [11:33:36] <mfbot> [[implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=27891 * DmitryDzhus * (+469) Added xfn-spider
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  135. [17:59:50] <tantek> greetings
  136. [18:00:12] <tantek> there's been a proposal to do this week's microformats weekly meetup at Chevy's
  137. [18:00:17] <tantek> any objections?
  138. [18:00:24] <tantek> (for the meetup in sf that is)
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  158. [19:48:41] <Amorphous> tommorris, wouldn't rel=profile be more flexible, as @profile can't contain any additional attributes?
  159. [19:49:21] <tommorris> Amorphous: well, I'm not sure what other attributes one would want to put on a profile link
  160. [19:50:38] <tommorris> I mean, @type? @title? We know the type - it'll be HTML. And the title isn't relevant.
  161. [19:53:12] <Amorphous> yea sure currently there are none. but e.g. what if i want to only access grddl profiles without needing to retrieve each one...
  162. [19:54:00] <tommorris> currently, according to the standard you are going to have to retrieve them all anyway
  163. [19:57:28] <Amorphous> it just feels wrong to go with the option that woun't ever be extendable and having another way to specify relations with external documents whereas everything else uses link
  164. [19:58:12] <tommorris> well, GRDDL is extendable.
  165. [19:58:19] <tantek> rel="profile" is one of the xmdp-brainstorming suggestions under strong consideration
  166. [19:58:37] <tantek> it's also in XHTML 2.0
  167. [19:58:53] <tommorris> I've been checking out all the GRDDL implementations, and they are almost all open source
  168. [19:59:31] <tommorris> so, if HTML 5 were to remove head/@profile, it'd be possible to patch the vast majority of the open source implementations to work with a rel value instead
  169. [19:59:44] <tantek> which I'm happy to take some credit for, since suggesting it an HTML WG meeting many many years ago as a way to evolve past the 'profile' attribute on the <head> element. in a a more extensible, polyvalued, and potentially visible way.
  170. [20:00:00] <tantek> no reason to drop head profile
  171. [20:00:06] <tantek> especially since it is in use
  172. [20:00:06] <Amorphous> tommorris, with extensible i meant the document that declares the link not the linked one
  173. [20:00:53] <Amorphous> yea the user agent should probably still recognise it
  174. [20:01:45] <tommorris> tantek: it would be awesome, for instance, if on a page with hCards one could have a visible hyperlink pointing to the hCard profile with rel="profile" on it. that way, machines could follow their nose to obtain instructions on how to parse the data, and humans could see a visible link or image informing them of the presence of data
  175. [20:02:07] <tantek> indeed
  176. [20:02:09] <tantek> you could even link the word "hCard" to the profile
  177. [20:02:13] <tantek> and thus have it be visible metadata
  178. [20:02:17] <tantek> also
  179. [20:02:44] <tommorris> I'd also like to see GRDDL extended so that it does other stuff beyond RDF. For instance, it'd be really useful to be able to extract RSS/Atom feeds from a variety of different types of data.
  180. [20:03:02] <tantek> we could define vocabularies included by rel="profile" to apply only within the context of the hyperlink (parent element and all its descendants)
  181. [20:03:15] <tantek> which would allow fragments of self-defining portable HTML
  182. [20:03:21] <tommorris> that's where it gets more complicated.
  183. [20:03:33] <tommorris> I'm sure it's doable though.
  184. [20:03:40] <tantek> it's got potential for more modularity
  185. [20:03:42] <tantek> that's the point
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  187. [20:04:38] * tommorris is writing a Ruby RDF library at the moment, and is tempted to just include *[@rel='profile'] parsing in the GRDDL class
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  189. [20:08:44] <tantek> tommorris see: http://microformats.org/wiki/xmdp-brainstorming#resolving_when_microformats_may_be_in_use
  190. [20:08:48] <tommorris> we have had some discussions in #swig over having modular HTML parsing, and also on 'exclusion' - ie. "this thing looks like a microformat, but it really isn't"
  191. [20:10:25] * tommorris is not totally sold on xmdp
  192. [20:11:16] <tommorris> it seems strangely out-of-step with everything else that is on microformats.org
  193. [20:14:26] <tantek> tommorris, that's because XMDP isn't really a microformat - it's supporting infrastructure, kind of like HTML itself
  194. [20:14:51] <tantek> XMDP is not a format for representing content that is broadly published on the web
  195. [20:15:00] <tantek> rather, it's a format for defining formats for representing content that is broadly published on the web
  196. [20:15:22] <tantek> and IMHO, it was the "minimal invention" path to creating a profile format for (X)HTML
  197. [20:15:47] <tantek> though of course, as the creator/inventor/author of XMDP, I am of course biased in that regard
  198. [20:16:41] <tantek> exclusion I think is a waste of time to discuss, because you could never trust it, and such a way of thinking is very incompatible with content evolution in practice
  199. [20:17:17] <tommorris> I'm not particularly bothered by exclusion, but it's something that was discussed. If someone sees a need for it, it's not difficult to do.
  200. [20:18:55] <tantek> actually, it's very difficult to do with any degree of reliability/trustability, because it's value decays quickly over time
  201. [20:19:04] <tantek> for social / economic reasons, not technical reasons
  202. [20:19:20] <tommorris> I'm not sure why you couldn't trust it. You'd include <link rel="exclude" href="http://gmpg.org/xfn/11" /> in a page, or a profile linked from a page, and the parser would say "Ah, I won't automatically parse this page of any XFN values using my built-in parsr"
  203. [20:19:23] <tantek> but of course, social/economic reasoning is all too often ignored by most semweb (all *cases) folks
  204. [20:19:30] * BenWard (n=BenWard@93-96-142-212.zone4.bethere.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  205. [20:19:44] <tommorris> If you've got a generic solution like GRDDL, it's not really a big concern.
  206. [20:19:45] * bennewarde is now known as BenWard
  207. [20:19:46] * ChanServ sets mode +o BenWard
  208. [20:19:46] <tantek> you couldn't trust it because over time pages tend to get more structured, more semantic, and semantics get added
  209. [20:19:51] <tantek> to the content
  210. [20:19:56] <tantek> without people bothering to update the <head>
  211. [20:20:01] <tantek> and the <head> gets out of date
  212. [20:20:15] <tommorris> the reasoning is not really for that.
  213. [20:20:16] <tantek> thus exclusions become particularly damaging because they hide valid semantics
  214. [20:20:18] <tommorris> here's what it's for:
  215. [20:20:24] <tantek> doesn't matter if its not for that case
  216. [20:20:29] <tantek> that's what happens to most content on the web
  217. [20:20:44] * pat-in-wv (n=pat-in-w@dpc693595205.direcpc.com) has joined #microformats
  218. [20:20:53] <tantek> if it can't deal with that scenario, it's not worth pursuing for the living evolving updating public web
  219. [20:21:18] <tommorris> if you are publishing a page with some XFN, a parser might automatically parse that in one way, and give you back an RDF document filled with the 'xfn:friend' predicates (I can't remember the URI off the top of my head, but it's the one produced by triplr)
  220. [20:22:06] <tommorris> But you may want the RDF representation of a page to map the XFN values to, say, the semantics in FOAF or in the RelVocab (or whatever) - you just say "exclude the usual XFN parsing routines, and use this one instead"
  221. [20:22:11] <tantek> btw - why say "give you back an RDF document fill with ... predicates" - why not just say "give you back a list of RDF triples" ? (internal API format agnostic)
  222. [20:22:54] <tantek> you say "use this one instead" by including that profile URI first in the list
  223. [20:23:08] <tommorris> ah, but RDF is additive, so it'll do both.
  224. [20:23:25] <tantek> see: http://gmpg.org/xmdp/description#multiple
  225. [20:23:26] <tommorris> which, for me, isn't really a big concern. but some have suggested that it would be useful.
  226. [20:23:27] <tantek> nope
  227. [20:23:30] * tobyink (n=tai@ophelia.g5n.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  228. [20:23:37] <tantek> if you are going to parse/obey XMDP, you have to follow what the spec says
  229. [20:23:43] <tantek> which is overrides
  230. [20:24:21] <tantek> first defined wins for vocabulary defined by the space separated set of URLs in the profile attribute
  231. [20:25:04] <tommorris> ah, that's interesting - that'll be interesting if we tell parsers that *[@rel='profile'] is equivalent to finding a URI in head/@profile
  232. [20:25:13] * pat-in-wv (n=pat-in-w@dpc693595205.direcpc.com) Quit (Client Quit)
  233. [20:25:18] <tantek> it's not useful because it's both unnecessary for the stated scenario, and problematic in the general case (evolving content)
  234. [20:25:23] <tantek> (exclusions that is)
  235. [20:26:13] <tommorris> But, if the exclusion was in a linked profile, it wouldn't trouble the page owner at all. It'd just be basically an internal parser instruction from the profile author to the parser ("hey, follow my instructions, not your own defaults")
  236. [20:27:05] <tommorris> again, I'm not convinced they are a real concern. I can't think of an instance where one might publish a bunch of HTML starting with, say, class="vcard", and not intend it to be an hCard.
  237. [20:27:18] <tantek> yes the processing model I have had in mind for both head[profile] and a[rel~=profile] is that the head[profile] takes precedence (for backward compat), and then same first defined rules apply, that is in cases where more than one profile from an <a rel="profile"> defines the same term, first wins.
  238. [20:27:42] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.113.0.75.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  239. [20:28:03] <tantek> if you don't intend it to be an hCard, then create your own XMDP where you define it to something else and link to that
  240. [20:28:08] <tobyink> yes tommorris, in the case of rel="vcard", that is true. in the case of rel="parent", rel="child" there are examples of these being used in non-XFN ways
  241. [20:28:20] <tantek> again, exclusions are unnecessary when you have overrides
  242. [20:28:29] <tommorris> ah, ok.
  243. [20:28:45] <tobyink> i.e. parent/child in heirarchical document relationships
  244. [20:29:13] <tommorris> The exclusions thing is not for XMDP. It's just some people thinking how one would do it with GRDDL.
  245. [20:29:36] <tommorris> (Of course, I think that GRDDL should poke through XMDP profiles and do something intelligent with them.)
  246. [20:29:55] * tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  247. [20:31:31] <tobyink> the way i do it in Cognition is have a "loose mode" and a "strict mode". If in loose mode, microformats are parsed in much the same way as other parsers. If in strict mode, well-known profile URIs are required. (Cognition supports head@profile and @rel=profile
  248. [20:31:34] <tobyink> )
  249. [20:32:07] * bugQ (n=bugQ@c-67-166-124-4.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) Quit ("rebooting")
  250. [20:34:44] <tobyink> similarly there's a loose and strict grddl mode. loose mode will apply rel=transformation and rel=profileTransformation regardless, whereas stgrict requires profile="http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view"
  251. [20:35:16] * tommorris is amazed that tobyink can do so much with Perl
  252. [20:36:16] <tobyink> Well, I use XML::LibXSLT which is a Perl wrapper around the GNOME XSLT library (written in C) and RDF::Redland a wrapper around the Redland RDF library (also in C, IIRC)
  253. [20:36:39] * bugQ (n=bugQ@c-67-166-124-4.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  254. [20:38:02] <tobyink> Also worth mentioning: the Cognition web service doesn't offer the ability to toggle these loose/strict modes - only the command line version does. The web service uses loose parsing for microformats, and strict for GRDDL. (Loose parsing for GRDDL uses more bandwidth as each profile URI needs to be retrieved regardless of whether it's GRDDL-enabled.)
  255. [20:40:03] * tommorris wonders whether any microformat parser authors would be willing to come over to the RDF dark side and help write some Ruby for RDF parsing... ;)
  256. [20:41:12] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.113.0.75.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
  257. [20:41:21] <tobyink> RDF parsing? Redland has Ruby bindings, no? (Even though it's not native.)
  258. [20:41:35] <tommorris> yeah, native parsing though...
  259. [20:41:47] <tommorris> http://github.com/tommorris/rena
  260. [20:44:24] <mfbot> [[existing-rel-values]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=existing-rel-values&diff=0&oldid=27892 * Tantek * (+464) move a few mis-categorized "proposals" to brainstorming/POSH, move unnamed brainstorming in table to list of see also links, provided summary description of rel-profile
  261. [20:45:22] * tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  262. [20:45:29] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  263. [20:45:29] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  265. [20:53:36] <mfbot> [[existing-rel-values]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=existing-rel-values&diff=0&oldid=27893 * Tantek * (+129) cleaned up Dublin Core unspecified / schema. section into specific points
  266. [20:57:52] * cacimar (n=drapetom@cpe-66-25-185-22.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ()
  267. [21:00:22] * renke2 (n=user@Le72f.l.pppool.de) has joined #microformats
  268. [21:00:37] <mfbot> [[rel-contact]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-contact&diff=0&oldid=27894 * Tantek * (+552) provided better explanation of rel="contact" origin, what publishers and parsers should do
  269. [21:03:23] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-2ff2193708d122f8) has joined #microformats
  270. [21:04:03] <mfbot> [[rel-contact]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-contact&diff=0&oldid=27895 * Tantek * (+52)
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  273. [21:12:39] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  274. [21:25:32] * tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  275. [21:28:45] <mfbot> [[semantic HTML]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic_HTML * Tantek * (+27)
  276. [21:29:26] <mfbot> [[semantic HTML]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semantic_HTML&diff=0&oldid=27896 * Tantek * (+1)
  277. [21:30:36] * renke3 (n=user@Lc08f.l.pppool.de) has joined #microformats
  278. [21:41:05] * tobyink (n=tai@ophelia.g5n.co.uk) Quit ("Leaving")
  279. [21:50:08] <mfbot> [[xmdp-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-faq&diff=0&oldid=27897 * Tantek * (+1717) added FAQ re: exclusions - unnecessary, undesirable, fail in practice
  280. [21:50:32] * renke2 (n=user@Le72f.l.pppool.de) Quit (Connection timed out)
  281. [21:50:44] <mfbot> [[rel-profile]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-profile * Tantek * (+2536) drafted, brainstormed, braindumped lots as a result of some IRC triggering thoughts from quite a while back.
  282. [21:55:10] * MrTopf (n=cs@pD9EBFA34.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  283. [21:57:06] <mfbot> [[xmdp-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=27898 * Tantek * (+846) link to [[rel-profile]] page, resolve issues
  284. [21:58:49] * tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ()
  285. [22:04:56] * bugQ (n=bugQ@c-67-166-124-4.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) Quit ("restarting, again...")
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  294. [22:55:05] <tantek> according to http://twitter.com/pixelsebi/statuses/870831882 " http://youare.com seems to use XFN to describe relationships between persons "
  295. [22:55:16] <tantek> anybody here have an account on youare.com and can provide example URLs / markup?
  296. [23:13:45] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-66-68-65-225.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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