IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-07-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  75. [12:38:29] <mfbot> [[xmdp-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=27918 * TobyInk * (+1518) Machine-Usable XMDP
  76. [12:45:05] <mfbot> [[xmdp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp&diff=0&oldid=27919 * TobyInk * (+25)
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  105. [15:37:34] <mfbot> [[faq-th]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-th&diff=0&oldid=27920 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+967) Q. ''How will microformat class names impact page size?'' -
  106. [15:40:25] <mfbot> [[faq-th]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-th&diff=0&oldid=27921 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+144) Q. ''It seems that <code>&lt;span class=&quot;vcard fn org&quot; id=&quot;club&quot;&gt;...&lt;/span&gt;</code> should work. Is this correct?'' -
  107. [15:41:11] <mfbot> [[faq-th]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-th&diff=0&oldid=27922 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+29) Nesting of elements -
  108. [15:50:12] <mfbot> [[faq-th]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-th&diff=0&oldid=27923 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+892) Q. ''Should human readable data go into class names?'' -
  109. [15:54:04] <mfbot> [[Main Page-th]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-th&diff=0&oldid=27924 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+6) สเปกของไมโครฟอร์แมต -
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  111. [16:01:05] <mfbot> [[rel-nofollow-th]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-nofollow-th * SukitArseanrapoj * (+5591)
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  140. [17:54:49] <mfbot> [[User talk:LordElph]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:LordElph&diff=0&oldid=27925 * VoeWkm * (+13052)
  141. [17:55:15] <mfbot> [[Talk:robots-exclusion-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:robots-exclusion-fr * YdvI84 * (+13051)
  142. [17:57:27] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:YdvI84" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  143. [17:57:39] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:VoeWkm" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  144. [17:57:50] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:robots-exclusion-fr": spam
  145. [17:57:55] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "User talk:LordElph": spam
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  147. [17:59:51] * Atamido_ is now known as Atamido
  148. [18:00:02] <Atamido> Anything new in the world of microformats?
  149. [18:00:19] * CloCkWeRX yawns
  150. [18:00:29] <gsnedders> Atamido: CloCkWeRX's yawn
  151. [18:00:36] <CloCkWeRX> woo
  152. [18:03:07] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=27926 * Atamido * (+43) add myself
  153. [18:03:46] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Leaving...")
  154. [18:16:41] <tantek> Atamido we had a very good dinner meetup last night
  155. [18:16:56] <tantek> discussed what order implementation made the most sense for social network portability
  156. [18:17:11] <tantek> e.g. 1. publishing hCard user profiles
  157. [18:17:17] <tantek> 2. publishing XFN+hCard friends lists
  158. [18:17:34] <tantek> 3. importing/subscribing hCard user profiles
  159. [18:17:42] <tantek> 4. importing/subscribing XFN+hCard friends lists
  160. [18:20:18] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181192153.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  161. [18:20:46] <CloCkWeRX> "importing/subscribing hCard user profiles" < *itches to use hcard profile + grddl + xpath on the results to make that a really slick process*
  162. [18:21:29] <mfbot> [[xmdp-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=27927 * Tantek * (+1242) rm tying of a brainstorm to a version number - it's premature and bad practice to imply any specific brainstorm will go into any specific version, noted prev attempts at full parsability have failed
  163. [18:24:31] <tantek> Clockwerx, you can try out import/subscribe to hCard user profiles with a live example at http://getsatisfaction.com/people/new - no grddl+xpath needed.
  164. [18:25:03] <tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-profiles for more
  165. [18:27:01] <CloCkWeRX> *sigh* that is already slick
  166. [18:28:13] <CloCkWeRX> http://clockwerx.blogspot.com/2008/03/how-to-make-openid-really-rock-user.html << not... as slick
  167. [18:29:30] <Atamido> tantek: To people really think it's wise to create class names that are invalid in CSS?
  168. [18:29:55] <Atamido> ie, the use of colons. http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#characters
  169. [18:30:39] <Atamido> Also, aren't the order of the class names not necessarily preserved?
  170. [18:31:09] <tantek> Atamido you are correct on both counts
  171. [18:31:25] <tantek> where do you see use of ":" in class names? And/or dependence on order?
  172. [18:31:31] <tantek> class names are a space separated *set*
  173. [18:31:35] <tantek> set = unordered
  174. [18:31:44] <tantek> (in the class attribute)
  175. [18:33:08] <Atamido> I was looking at the recent news that mentioned redoing the date/time attribute information.
  176. [18:33:13] <Atamido> *pattern
  177. [18:33:32] <Atamido> http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#Other_Proposals
  178. [18:33:55] <tantek> yes, there are some very poor proposals there that compromise many of the microformats principles
  179. [18:34:02] <tantek> good intentions, bad specifics
  180. [18:34:13] <Atamido> * Valid class names cannot begin with a number, so a date needs some sort of letter prefix. It's sensible to make this prefix meaningful and reusable in some way. Phae
  181. [18:34:15] <Atamido> * They can't in CSS, but they can in (X)HTML. http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/numeric-classes.html TobyInk 06:53, 24 Jun 2008 (PDT) *
  182. [18:34:36] <tantek> inventing a new subformat for data in the class attribute is a non-starter on *many* levels
  183. [18:34:53] <Atamido> IMHO, creating classes in HTML that you can't reference in CSS is a bad thing.
  184. [18:34:56] <tantek> it makes web authors learn another subformat - raising the barrier to authorability
  185. [18:35:14] <tantek> Atamido - that's good point too - you should add that as a disadvantage of the proposal to the wiki page
  186. [18:35:51] <tantek> and hiding data in the class attribute is both a completely new usage (whereas microformats use of class for additional IA was adopted from existing modern web design practice)
  187. [18:36:01] <Atamido> Also, replacing whitespace with underscores breaks ISO date compatibility.
  188. [18:36:06] <tantek> and hiding data in the class attribute is also a previous rejected anti-pattern
  189. [18:36:28] <tantek> another good point Atamido
  190. [18:36:56] <Atamido> I'll admit, there are a few advantages to having it there, but it raises so many disadvantages at the same time. :-\
  191. [18:37:29] <Atamido> It's a real shame HTML doesn't have a "data" attribute.
  192. [18:37:47] <Atamido> What we need here is a time machine.
  193. [18:37:52] * McNulty (n=ciaran@87-194-63-145.bethere.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  194. [18:37:56] <renke2> :)
  195. [18:38:01] <hober> Atamido: it will :)
  196. [18:38:02] <tantek> Atamido - could you add your additional points to the "Cons" section here: http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#Machine-data_in_class ?
  197. [18:38:04] * McNulty (n=ciaran@87-194-63-145.bethere.co.uk) has left #microformats
  198. [18:43:46] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27928 * Atamido * (+476) Machine-data in class -
  199. [18:44:36] <Atamido> Done.
  200. [18:44:59] <Atamido> Will HTML5 allow closing elements like <br/>?
  201. [18:45:11] <tantek> thanks Atamido
  202. [18:46:44] * McNulty (n=ciaran@87-194-63-145.bethere.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  203. [18:46:59] * McNulty can't work out how to post in Textile on a blog
  204. [18:48:50] <hober> Atamido: it allows closing void elements like that
  205. [18:49:00] <hober> Atamido: so <br /> is fine, but <div /> is not
  206. [18:49:20] <Atamido> Well, that's better than nothing.
  207. [18:50:56] <tantek> Atamido for the datetime stuff, it is likely that we will first take the incremental improvement step of splitting date and time and see how that helps things in practice before considering any more radical solutions. I'm optimistic.
  208. [18:51:23] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#date_and_time_separation_using_value_excerption
  209. [18:53:16] * McNulty (n=ciaran@87-194-63-145.bethere.co.uk) Quit ()
  210. [18:56:28] <Atamido> Ooh, the Operator add-on now does locations properly for our website.
  211. [18:57:52] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-98a52141d88eeb28) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  212. [18:58:46] <Atamido> tantek: That looks like it'll make things an order of magnitude more complicated for parsers.
  213. [19:00:47] <Atamido> Having multiple values under a single class name, I mean.
  214. [19:02:23] * BenWard (n=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-0e72efefc0b2d8e9) Quit ("Fades out again…")
  215. [19:03:12] <tantek> Atamido, which is why I ran it by Mike Kaply before seriously proposing/writing it up.
  216. [19:03:22] <tantek> He was able to implement it in a matter of minutes in Operator.
  217. [19:03:38] <tantek> so perhaps you are not considering how it could be easily implemented
  218. [19:04:03] <Atamido> Oh, I don't have to implement it. :P
  219. [19:04:35] <Atamido> But it does mean that the parser has to recognize if it is looking at a date, a time, or a combination of both.
  220. [19:06:12] <tantek> yes, which has been demonstrated by HTML5 (ironically) to be quite easy to do, as HTML5 requires the same in its <time> element
  221. [19:09:12] * azazul` (n=azazul@zelli-kojas.lanet.lv) has joined #microformats
  222. [19:17:54] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27929 * Tantek * (+2234) followed up and answered several issues on date and time separation using value excerption, grouped related issues, separated out different issues.
  223. [19:26:48] * azazul (n=azazul@zelli-kojas.lanet.lv) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  224. [19:29:08] <Amorphous> Atamido, out of curiosity why would you need <br/> in html, i.e. non-xhtml?
  225. [19:30:00] * Amorphous wonders why html5 would allow that for authors
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  227. [19:37:02] * pat-in-wv (n=pat-in-w@dpc693595205.direcpc.com) Quit (Client Quit)
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  231. [19:48:14] <hober> Amorphous: it allows it in text/html mainly to help authors transition from XHTML 1.0
  232. [19:52:59] <Amorphous> one probably can't allow self-closing of non-void elements because that would break old html documents, but that also means it doen't help much...
  233. [19:54:01] <hober> / is a no-op
  234. [19:54:04] <Amorphous> so if the author want's to transition from xhtml he probably is already sending out invalid html, so why word the standard to make it valid for authors`
  235. [19:54:28] <hober> there was a big thread about it a while ago
  236. [19:54:44] <hober> originally, self-closing with /> was always invalid
  237. [19:55:02] <hober> but people eventually convinced hixie to allow / on void elements
  238. [19:56:13] * MrTopf (i=hidden-u@oecher.info) Quit ("deconstructing...")
  239. [19:56:52] * Amorphous thinks it seems like people want xml and html at the same time but not xhtml? *shrug*
  240. [19:57:52] * Atamido wants xhtml 3.5
  241. [20:00:42] * renke2 (n=user@Lf5d0.l.pppool.de) Quit (Connection timed out)
  242. [20:04:38] * Hixie hates the self-closing crap
  243. [20:04:40] <Hixie> :-)
  244. [20:05:03] <hober> Atamido: if you want the gory details, http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-November/thread.html#8035
  245. [20:05:18] <hober> Hixie: yeah, it's distasteful
  246. [20:06:02] <Hixie> if people realised how little i liked it, i don't think they'd ever complain about me just putting things in html5 that i liked and ignoring feedback
  247. [20:17:49] <Atamido> Ah, so the trailing slash is ignored, and the only change is that it won't be marked as an error in the validator.
  248. [20:17:53] <Atamido> I could live with that.
  249. [20:18:23] <Atamido> If an element is opened, I want a slash to close it.
  250. [20:20:22] <Atamido> Weren't images in HTML originally supposed to use a list of locations, so that the browser would display the first one it could support?
  251. [20:21:00] * CloCkWeRX (n=Rob@lnk206.lns4-adl.adsl.esc.net.au) has left #microformats
  252. [20:21:58] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27930 * TobyInk * (+500)
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  258. [20:47:51] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27931 * Atamido * (+280) Machine-data in class -
  259. [20:48:21] * Atamido continues his battle.
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  271. [22:10:15] <mfbot> [[events/2008-07-29-weekly-meetup-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-07-29-weekly-meetup-dinner&diff=0&oldid=27932 * Tantek * (+78)
  272. [22:11:11] * Amorphous (i=jan@f048003137.adsl.alicedsl.de) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  278. [22:29:34] <mfbot> [[html5]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=html5&diff=0&oldid=27933 * IanHickson * (+383) New features in HTML5 -
  279. [22:31:10] <mfbot> [[html5]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=html5&diff=0&oldid=27934 * IanHickson * (+211) New features in HTML5 -
  280. [22:31:54] <tantek> Thanks Hixie
  281. [22:32:31] <Hixie> np
  282. [22:39:33] * rmarkwhite1 (i=rmarkwhi@gateway/tor/x-1d0052ee6db7577e) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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