IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-08-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  46. [12:25:27] <mfbot> [[parsing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=parsing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=27937 * TobyInk * (+395) Dealing with tripley-nested microformats.
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  80. [16:20:06] <hober> Hmm. I'm participating in a thread on public-html re: extensibility points in HTML.
  81. [16:20:31] <hober> Microformats came up as an example of an extension effort "hobbled" by the inability to add elements & attributes to the language
  82. [16:20:48] <hober> But, in my mind, as a community, we've never wanted to add elements or attributes to HTML
  83. [16:21:21] <bennewarde> We've had the ongoing datetime stuff, and some other machine-data points. Some people have desired an additional attribute to contain that
  84. [16:21:23] <hober> I've always seen the microformats effort as being explicitly about using the extension points already available to us in HTML (@class, <div>, etc.)
  85. [16:21:30] <bennewarde> I don't think I've _ever_ seen someone wanting custom elements
  86. [16:21:35] <hober> well, sure, which is why <time> has been added to HTML5.
  87. [16:21:41] <bennewarde> Yep
  88. [16:22:05] <bennewarde> Although we've got things like ‘type’ in telephone numbers, too, and durations (does <time> allow those as well?)
  89. [16:22:10] <bennewarde> So there are a handful
  90. [16:22:16] <hober> Anyway, I was thinking it might help the discussion for T or someone to pipe up and say we're not hobbled by the lack of ability to add elements
  91. [16:22:23] <bennewarde> (all on microformats.org/wiki/machine-data)
  92. [16:23:31] <bennewarde> I've not followed the HTML list in a while, unforutnately. By all means speak up yourself, hober :) Just say what you've just said, ask for examples of microformats being hobbled by them and voice that you don't think it's a valid case for custom attributes/elements unless people can cite an example
  93. [16:23:31] <hober> for reference: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0022.html
  94. [16:23:50] <hober> oh, I already did.
  95. [16:24:54] <bennewarde> Awesome :)
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  99. [16:48:10] <tantek> hober, actually, my idea/request for the <time> element predates microformats, and I came up with the idea during a CSS working group meeting
  100. [16:49:21] <tantek> originally discovering the need for a semantic time element by working backwards from the desire to be able to change the presentation of date and time per language/locale conventions (just as the CSS list-style-type property allows you to number lists according to language/locale conventions, I wanted an equivalent time-style-type property)
  101. [16:50:15] <tantek> but that led to the realization that dates and times aren't marked up in a way that could be easily restyled using a time-style-type property, and thus it was clear that an easy way to mark up dates and times was necessary (with authoring/presentation benefits like time-style-type)
  102. [16:50:33] <tantek> original threads on this might be found in www-html
  103. [16:51:07] <tantek> oh and regarding the extensibility/hobbling debate - wow what a bunch of misconceptions!
  104. [16:51:33] <hober> sure sure (re: <time>)
  105. [16:51:48] <tantek> the point of microformats was not infinite extensibility, um RTFW right: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#microformats_are_not
  106. [16:51:52] <hober> I know, it makes my head hurt (re: misconceptions)
  107. [16:52:16] <hober> e.g. JR's reply to my mail
  108. [16:52:31] <tantek> but the problem is that to people that have a hammer (i.e. a desire for an extensibility mechanism), everything seems like a nail (an attempt at providing an extensibility mechanism)
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  110. [16:55:00] <tantek> now, XMDP OTOH you could claim is a formalization of the extensibility methods present in (X)HTML
  111. [16:55:14] <tantek> microformats merely use XMDP
  112. [16:56:05] <hober> well, if you would, I think a short email from you replying to the biggest of the misconceptions
  113. [16:56:06] <hober> (microformats wanting/needing more extensibility points than already present in HTML / microformats being hobbled by HTML's lack of distributed extenisbility)
  114. [16:56:13] <hober> would be potentially really helpful
  115. [16:58:28] <tantek> nah - handling misconceptions is lower than other more important tasks on the priority list: http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#overall_priority_ordering
  116. [16:59:39] <hober> ok
  117. [17:01:25] <tantek> and btw, we have always intended microformats to be limited, in both number, and usefulness, and have pursued them knowing this. it's their limitations that make them achievable, useful, implementable.
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  133. [20:11:10] <mfbot> [[compound-microformat]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=compound-microformat&diff=0&oldid=27938 * Onur Yardımcı * (-3) Compound Microformat -
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