IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-05-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [06:27:52] <Hixie>
http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090504#l-309
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- [07:32:25] <Atamido>
Hixie: Chicken
- [07:32:58] <Atamido>
Hixie: Chicken/egg problem, though isn't FF 3.5 supposed to have improved support for such microformats?
- [07:33:54] <Atamido>
What's a real shame is that Google doesn't cull information from our business listings that are all in microformats.
- [07:34:51] <singpolyma>
Hixie: if someone wants a parser to do something, build one. The reason adding to calendar (/subscribing in google calendar) is the big one is because it's what everyone wanted to build
- [07:35:18] <singpolyma>
building a microformats parser is pretty simple if you have a decent HTML parser available, which many languages do
- [07:36:30] <Atamido>
singpolyma: I think the issue is that web surfers that browse to the site aren't able to make use of the microformats due to not having any built in ability in the browser.
- [07:36:59] <Atamido>
You could write a plugin, but you're still excluding the vast majority of people that wouldn't be able to figure it out.
- [07:37:10] <singpolyma>
Atamido: NEVER build that kind of cruft into a browser. That's what extensions/userscripts/plugins/other things are for
- [07:37:15] <Atamido>
In this case, just exporting an iCal file would be easier.
- [07:37:36] <Atamido>
That type of support should be built into IE.
- [07:37:50] <singpolyma>
So include a link to export said iCal data from the microformats, or also output iCal (it's not hard)
- [07:37:57] <singpolyma>
I heartily disagree
- [07:38:05] <singpolyma>
Browsers have too much crap in them as it is
- [07:38:24] <Atamido>
But you already said that support for it would be simple.
- [07:38:56] <singpolyma>
I said building a parser to do something is simple... that doesn't mean it belongs native in the browser
- [07:39:09] <singpolyma>
The complaint was about behaviours
- [07:39:29] <singpolyma>
if you build it into the browser, it's still only going to be able to be added to a calendar unless you build another behaviour
- [07:39:41] <singpolyma>
and if you build another behaviour, just do it with existing tools
- [07:40:16] <Atamido>
A rather large percentage of the Internet has contact information and events built into web pages. If those were all built as microformats, it'd make sense to build support in for the browser.
- [07:40:31] <Atamido>
It'd be like not including SVG support.
- [07:40:51] <singpolyma>
I like the idea of SVG support being a plugin, actually, but that's a seperate matter
- [07:41:12] <singpolyma>
The point is that the original complaint was that there was only one obvious action
- [07:41:20] <singpolyma>
Where that action lives makes no difference
- [07:41:46] <Atamido>
Ideally browsers would support all official web standards out of box, and microformats would gain some sort of official status.
- [07:42:11] <singpolyma>
Ideally browsers would only be content rendering windows to hang plugin on, and there would be no such thing as "official status"
- [07:42:42] <singpolyma>
but we're never going to get there, so we work with what we have :)
- [07:42:54] <Atamido>
HTML 4.01 is an official standard.
- [07:43:06] <Atamido>
One would hope it is supported by the browser.
- [07:43:17] <singpolyma>
It's a W3C standard, and thus official for those who recognise their authority
- [07:43:45] <Atamido>
Are you suggesting JavaScript be moved to a plugin?
- [07:43:59] <singpolyma>
One would hope that most user agents would process HTML by default, yes, but it need not be a feature of all of them, there's no rule about that
- [07:44:11] <singpolyma>
Atamido: I'm suggesting *everything* be moved to a plugin
- [07:44:21] <singpolyma>
Modular designs rule
- [07:44:37] <Atamido>
Fine, then include all of those plugins by default, including ones that support microformats.
- [07:44:46] <singpolyma>
But I've already conceeded that people are too rooted in their ways to do that
- [07:45:06] <singpolyma>
Atamido: sure, but that still doesn't solve the root problem Hixie brought up
- [07:45:43] <Atamido>
If most users have browsers that support microformats, then that would solve the issue.
- [07:46:10] <singpolyma>
The issue was that "supporting microformats" only means "let them add to a calendar"... ie, not enough actions/behaviours available
- [07:46:16] <Atamido>
Oh wait, I think I see what might be being said.
- [07:47:22] <Atamido>
Yeah, I see that now.
- [07:47:26] <Atamido>
But I fail to see the point.
- [07:48:10] <singpolyma>
As do I... adding to calendar seems to be all people care about (as evidenced by it being all they've built)... I've been working on a good "invite others" action as well (bookmarklet), not done yet
- [07:48:50] <Atamido>
Reading the microformat and getting an iCal file would be functionally identical, and that is the purpose. If they want to "interact" with the event then they just need to add a form and maybe publish an API if someone wants to write an application for it.
- [07:49:04] <Atamido>
Ala, writing a Facebook application.
- [07:50:38] <Atamido>
I guess someone could suggest adding a tag to indicate that the Microformat fields are empty and are meant to be filled in by the client.
- [07:51:29] <singpolyma>
Atamido: microformats are kind of for data... not forms
- [07:51:34] <singpolyma>
empty ones are not so useful
- [07:51:40] <Atamido>
Like creating a form with everything tagged as an hCal, and at the root have class="userSubmit" or something.
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- [07:52:14] <Atamido>
Then an application could automatically find a form and fill data in to the proper fields automatically.
- [07:52:33] <Atamido>
But I'm still not seeing how that would be useful in any practical sense.
- [07:52:48] <singpolyma>
better idea: use the class names from microformat be used as the name= attribute on the form (I tend to do this anyway)
- [07:53:07] <singpolyma>
more semantic, and acheives the same goal
- [07:53:36] <Atamido>
Someone would need to specify then that form elements MUST not be scrubbed for data.
- [07:53:51] <Atamido>
That could be problematic.
- [07:54:32] <singpolyma>
http://pastie.org/467373
- [07:55:02] <Atamido>
I suppose you could have a plugin that lets you fill in contact or calender information always using the exact same looking interface, and then that filled in form.
- [07:56:17] <Atamido>
What if someone assigns a value to one of those form fields? How do you make sure a microformat plugin doesn't think that is a contact?
- [07:57:06] <singpolyma>
Atamido: a microformat plugin won't see it, because the class names aren't set to anything microformatty (or anything at all in this case)
- [07:57:41] <Atamido>
It would actually be nice to be able to automatically fill in all contact fields in a form.
- [07:57:47] * Atamido slaps forehead.
- [07:57:52] <Atamido>
You're right.
- [07:58:59] <Atamido>
I think we still come back to the issue of "What's the point?"
- [07:59:09] <singpolyma>
Quite possibly
- [07:59:17] <singpolyma>
Although: 03:59 < Atamido> It would actually be nice to be able to automatically fill in all contact fields in a form.
- [07:59:43] <Atamido>
And that is the only use I can think of.
- [07:59:53] <Atamido>
That doesn't even apply to a calender.
- [08:00:16] <singpolyma>
True. Not sure if there's a calendar use case
- [08:00:28] <singpolyma>
Except that standard field names are nice
- [08:00:44] <Atamido>
It seems like a lot of work to go through too for a minute or two of saved time every so often.
- [08:01:04] <Atamido>
Yeah, standard field names are nice.
- [08:01:57] <Atamido>
Anything but this though. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3106
- [08:03:05] <singpolyma>
heh, I agree, using existing field/class names (and short ones) is much nicer than inventing some namespaced new thing :)
- [08:03:10] <Atamido>
Ecom_ShipTo_Telecom_Phone_Number?
- [08:03:14] <Atamido>
Seriously?
- [08:04:02] <singpolyma>
yeah :P
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- [12:24:54] <mfbot>
SamJohnston created User:SamJohnston "created" http://is.gd/wAaS
- [12:51:05] <mfbot>
SamJohnston created rel-shortlink "created" http://is.gd/wAsh
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SamJohnston edited Main Page "/* Specifications */ " (+20) http://is.gd/wAsW
- [12:53:56] <mfbot>
SamJohnston edited exploratory-discussions "/* active */ +rel-shortlink" (+34) http://is.gd/wAuq
- [12:55:45] <mfbot>
SamJohnston edited Main Page "Undo revision 38502 by [[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|SamJohnston]] ([[User talk:SamJohnston|Talk]]) rel-shortlink not stable yet?" (-20) http://is.gd/wAvo
- [12:57:00] <mfbot>
SamJohnston edited Main Page "/* Drafts */ +rel-shortlink" (+123) http://is.gd/wAwb
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SamJohnston edited rel-shortlink "/* normative references */ +apps-discuss thread" (+169) http://is.gd/wAxZ
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SamJohnston edited rel-shortlink "/* inferior alternatives */ " (+141) http://is.gd/wB7U
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SamJohnston edited rel-shortlink "/* inferior alternatives */ " (-8) http://is.gd/wBwU
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SamJohnston edited rel-shortlink "/* Concept */ " (+41) http://is.gd/wBxD
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SamJohnston edited rel-shortlink "/* inferior alternatives */ " (+53) http://is.gd/wCad
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- [16:45:58] <Hixie>
singpolyma: i think the problem is that it's not clear how you would build a generic microformat parser
- [16:48:49] <cgriego>
What good is a generic microformat parser?
- [16:56:58] <cgriego>
Or instead is what's lacking a generic, intermediary serialization?
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- [17:19:58] <singpolyma>
Hixie: you mean like mofo, etc? It's already been done multiple times
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- [17:21:17] <Hixie>
cgriego: i don't know, but in collecting use cases for html5 for metadata-like stuff, the one piece of feedback i consistently here from almost everyone is "microformats aren't doing it for me because i can't write a generic parser that handles all the various microformats"
- [17:22:12] <Hixie>
it may be that people want to store microdata in a generic structure internally, and would like to go from text/html to that structure without having to hard-code knowledge of each vocabulary into their parsers
- [17:23:10] <singpolyma>
Hixie: they want to use microformats like they use JSON? That's not really what it's about/for...
- [17:23:37] <Hixie>
ah, ok
- [17:23:42] <singpolyma>
One could (sort of) use XOXO like that, but yeah
- [17:23:53] <Hixie>
i guess i'll have to add something for this use case that's separate from microformats then
- [17:24:18] <Hixie>
they do want to encode things like events and contact information and stuff, as far as i can tell
- [17:24:22] <singpolyma>
Assuming it's a good use case, which it's probably not
- [17:24:36] <cgriego>
Some parsers like Operator have intermediary formats that use JSON.
- [17:24:41] <singpolyma>
Hixie: well, then microformats *are* for that... storing specific kinds of data as defined
- [17:25:49] <singpolyma>
and XOXO is pretty good at storing arbitrary data if that's what one really wants
- [17:25:52] <Hixie>
yeah but they require the parsers to know about the vocabularies
- [17:25:52] <singpolyma>
or just POSH, of course
- [17:26:07] <tantek>
Hixie, the folks that have prioritized "write a generic parser" as their #1 priority have driven the design of XML and RDF.
- [17:26:21] <Hixie>
i think you have that backwards
- [17:26:23] <singpolyma>
Hixie: that's the whole point... if you don't have a defined vocabulary, you end up with something useless like RDF or XML, etc
- [17:26:33] <tantek>
exactly
- [17:26:38] <Hixie>
folks who have driven the design of XML and RDF had "write a generic parser" as their #1 priority
- [17:27:01] <tantek>
The key piece of wisdom here is that defined vocabularies are actually where you get *user* value in the real world of data generated/created by humans, and consumed eventually by humans.
- [17:27:09] <Hixie>
i'm not talking about this being a #1 priority though -- in the case of the guy i mentioned earlier, it was like #4 or #5
- [17:27:24] <Hixie>
but it was still a reason he was displeased with microformats
- [17:28:05] <tantek>
Hixie - ironically, people have written more than one generic parser for microformats, despite that not being a priority in the design
- [17:28:12] <Hixie>
url?
- [17:28:18] <tantek>
mofo, optimus
- [17:28:50] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers
- [17:28:54] <tantek>
not exactly hard to find
- [17:29:11] <tantek>
it's ok that writing a generic parser is hard, because not many people have to write one
- [17:29:40] <Hixie>
optimus requires updating every time you want to use a new vocabulary, though, right
- [17:29:42] <tantek>
OTOH it is NOT ok to make writing / marking up content hard, because nearly far more people (perhaps 100k x more) have to write / mark up content.
- [17:29:59] <Hixie>
yes, writing content should be easy, that's clear
- [17:30:22] <Hixie>
ideally it should be even easier than it is with microformats :-)
- [17:30:32] <singpolyma>
Of course you have to update every time there's a new vocabulary... microformats are *exclusively* vocabularies
- [17:31:40] <Hixie>
there seems to be a lot of demand for a technology that's as easy to write as microformats (or even easier), but which lets people write tools that consume arbitrary vocabularies much more easily than is possible with text/html / POSH / Microformats today
- [17:32:09] <singpolyma>
Hixie: isn't that what RDFa and the other cruft is about?
- [17:32:24] <Hixie>
RDFa is a disaster insofar as "easy to write as microformats" goes
- [17:32:28] <singpolyma>
Not that I agree arbitrary vocabularies can be used for anything...
- [17:32:35] <Hixie>
and it's not particularly great to parse either
- [17:34:19] <Hixie>
anyway, i take it this is not something that the Microformats community is interested in persuing then?
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- [17:38:04] <tantek>
Hixie - here are some of the non-goals I set out from the beginning, specifically to avoid traps/pitfalls that others were already very busy exploring: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#microformats_are_not
- [17:39:42] <tantek>
and as far as demand for such a technology, sure - the only questions are - 1. is it worth the time to pursue it (may cost A LOT of time, like decades) ? and 2. what is the best approach? (it may be that experience gained through limited but practical solutions like microformats gets you closer to a generic solution faster than directly pursuing a generic solution in the abstract)
- [17:39:43] <Hixie>
ok
- [17:39:53] <Hixie>
is it ok if html5 addresses some of the use cases that _are_ asking for those things, in a way that reuses the vocabularies developed by Microformats?
- [17:39:56] * tantek should write that up.
- [17:41:06] <tantek>
Hixie - the one offering to the "generic markup/transform" world we have, as singpolyma pointed out, is XOXO
- [17:41:22] <tantek>
it can be transformed generically to/from XML, JSON etc.
- [17:41:28] <singpolyma>
Hixie: I should expect any use of good, existing vocabularies is a good thing (or a better thing than the invent-you-own model so many use)
- [17:42:24] <tantek>
Hixie - I have yet to see use cases that demonstrate a sufficient need for a new solution for such things. Nearly all requests are theoretical, and most that aren't are better handled through experience with POSH than trying to drive the creation of a new technology.
- [17:43:09] <tantek>
off for a bit - I'll be online again in a few hours.
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- [17:46:41] * Hixie tries to learn how to parse hCard and gets really confused by all the weird optimisations allowed
- [17:47:34] <singpolyma>
Hixie: which weird optimisations? They're mostly the natural things, like you can infer n from fn
- [17:48:20] <Hixie>
i was hoping http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing would look more like the html5 parser spec with just a clear set of steps that you follow to end up with a consistent result
- [17:49:03] <Hixie>
how do i know if a property takes a url or not?
- [17:49:13] <singpolyma>
Hixie: someone with more academic parsing experiance could take a crack at such
- [17:49:26] <singpolyma>
No one's against it, it just hasn't been something people have been interested in
- [17:52:45] * gsnedders ponders not supporting hAtom in XHTML in SP2
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- [17:55:49] <Madness>
Hi, I have a quick question about hcard and telephone types, the values are all english, how do you handle non-english languages?
- [17:57:11] <Madness>
Accepted "tel types" are "VOICE, home, msg, work, pref, fax, cell, video, pager, bbs, modem, car, isdn, pcs", what about translation, how is localization to be handled?
- [17:57:15] <gsnedders>
(hAtom is definitely supported in HTML, though, whatever happens with XHTML)
- [17:57:37] <Madness>
Whoops, quick reboot.
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- [17:58:17] <theMadness>
Back.
- [18:00:11] <singpolyma>
Madness: check out http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern
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- [18:01:57] <theMadness>
Checking.
- [18:02:47] * singpolyma (n=singpoly@adsl-99-173-26-210.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) Quit ("Lost terminal")
- [18:03:01] <theMadness>
You mea...
- [18:03:09] <theMadness>
Disconnected.
- [18:04:08] <theMadness>
http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Using_value-title_to_publish_machine-data this probably.
- [18:05:10] <theMadness>
Like this: <span class="type value-title" title="home">Casa</span>
- [18:05:46] <theMadness>
Or <span class="type value-title" title="cell">Mobile</span>.
- [18:05:56] <theMadness>
Does that work?
- [18:14:19] <theMadness>
The suspance.
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- [19:02:14] <theMadness>
singpolyma, is <span class="type value-title" title="cell">Mobile</span> acceptable?
- [19:04:13] <singpolyma>
theMadness: I think so
- [19:04:35] <theMadness>
Allright, I'm going to go with that, but the docs are really bad on that subject.
- [19:04:56] <singpolyma>
it's really new
- [19:08:35] <theMadness>
hcard? new?
- [19:36:46] <singpolyma>
not hcard, the value-class-pattern
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