IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-09-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  39. [07:47:44] <dom_> Moin!
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  54. [11:15:58] <dom_> I'm gettings errors about the date in my hatom documents ... http://tools.microformatic.com/transcode/atom/hatom/http://www.math.uni-bonn.de/people/support/test.html
  55. [11:16:05] <dom_> Maybe somebody could take a look?
  56. [11:16:20] <dom_> Invalid input: Year part is not 4 digits long and/or contains invalid characters(Error code: 02)
  57. [11:31:41] <tobyink> This pattern: <span class="value-title" title="2009-08-12"> </span>12. August 2009
  58. [11:31:46] <tobyink> is not widely implemented yet.
  59. [11:49:12] <dom_> Too bad
  60. [11:53:27] <tobyink> The <abbr> pattern works in the vast majority of parsers. It suffers from some accessibility problems, though if you just use dates (not datetimes) it's not too bad.
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  80. [12:48:21] <dom_> tobyink: I just really hate this tooltips on my dates
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  84. [13:25:33] <dom_> Is there any way to hide the tooltips via css?!
  85. [13:27:14] <gsnedders> dom_: You can't
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  92. [14:08:42] <tobyink> dom_: only by hiding the entire element.
  93. [14:12:33] <dom_> I'll just get used to it... :)
  94. [14:12:36] <dom_> tobyink: But thanks!
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  115. [16:47:20] <tantek> tommorris let me know how the London Linked Data meeting goes, and good to hear that you had a chance to talk with Brian Suda about XMDP-to-RDFS mapping/transformation.
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  123. [17:20:29] <to_> any POSH pattern to display tweets?
  124. [17:27:43] <factoryjoe> to_: just use hAtom
  125. [17:31:29] <to_> I've set: <ol><li><cite>me</cite><blockquote><p>I'm happy today</p></blockquote></li> but what tag to display the date of the tweet?
  126. [17:31:47] <TabAtkins> <time>
  127. [17:32:09] <to_> really <time> ?
  128. [17:32:09] <factoryjoe> TabAtkins: there's no <time> tag?
  129. [17:32:14] <to_> oO
  130. [17:32:17] <factoryjoe> srsly
  131. [17:32:19] <TabAtkins> HTML5. Love it.
  132. [17:32:29] <factoryjoe> heh
  133. [17:32:36] <to_> TabAtkins: no but this time it should be HTML4
  134. [17:32:40] <to_> :)
  135. [17:32:46] <TabAtkins> <time datetime="i'm a datetime in ISO8601 or whatever">I'm a date in human-readable form</time>
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  138. [17:33:28] <TabAtkins> <time> will work in older browsers. You just gotta run the ol' document.createElement('time') trick for IE if you want to style it.
  139. [17:34:41] <to_> TabAtkins: no but I'm just looking for a semantic HTML4 markup for this actually, no JS
  140. [17:35:00] <TabAtkins> Then <span class=time>
  141. [17:35:11] <TabAtkins> There isn't anything more semantic in html4.
  142. [17:35:45] <factoryjoe> <abbr>
  143. [17:35:52] <factoryjoe> look up the date-time pattern
  144. [17:36:08] <TabAtkins> That's got accessibility issues, though (which is one of the big reasons <time> was created).
  145. [17:36:23] <factoryjoe> sure
  146. [17:36:33] <factoryjoe> except those issues have, to my knowledge, largely been addressed
  147. [17:36:47] <factoryjoe> http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern
  148. [17:36:58] <factoryjoe> http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#HTML_5_.3Ctime.3E_Element
  149. [17:37:08] <gsnedders> How have they been addressed? AT will still read the abbr out.
  150. [17:37:44] <factoryjoe> http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#accessibility_issues
  151. [17:37:45] <tantek> TabAtkins - the accessibility issues have been solved months ago: http://tr.im/valueclass
  152. [17:37:57] <tantek> factoryjoe - those pages need updating
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  154. [17:38:05] <factoryjoe> i see that
  155. [17:38:06] <tantek> refer to the value-class-pattern page *first*
  156. [17:38:21] <factoryjoe> it would be good to make that notice on the date-design pattern page... like, in BOLD
  157. [17:38:27] <tantek> TabAtkins - <time> is also insufficient to address all the needs from microformats.
  158. [17:38:33] <factoryjoe> gsnedders: see this: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern
  159. [17:38:51] <TabAtkins> Ah, so using <abbr> only for dates, where the accessibility isn't bad, then marking the time separately. Okay.
  160. [17:38:55] <gsnedders> <abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">this Tuesday</abbr> still doesn't help :\ (from that page)
  161. [17:38:57] <tantek> factoryjoe - perhaps you could add a note like that at the top of the date-time-design pattern page?
  162. [17:39:11] <gsnedders> I mean, sure, it's better. But it still isn't brilliant.
  163. [17:39:18] <tantek> gsnedders - why do you say "that doesn't help?"
  164. [17:39:18] <factoryjoe> ok
  165. [17:39:51] <TabAtkins> tantek: Are you talking about date ranges and fuzzy dates?
  166. [17:40:07] <tantek> TabAtkins - yes, just for dates, it's not bad, because ISO8601 dates are both readable and listenable, in fact, the *most* human readable world wide.
  167. [17:40:33] <gsnedders> If I'm using something like JAWS then I still get the date read out whereas I don't see it in a visual UA, IMO that's suboptimal.
  168. [17:40:50] <tantek> TabAtkins - see http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#time for starters
  169. [17:40:57] <tantek> durations are another problem that <time> fails to address
  170. [17:41:27] <TabAtkins> tantek: Yeah, that's what I thought. Those can be worked around, but overall I personally agree that less precision should be allowed in some way.
  171. [17:41:28] <tantek> gsnedders - depends on your JAWS settings
  172. [17:41:44] <tantek> gsnedders - do you have an actual example or are you simply copy/pasting what others' claim?
  173. [17:42:03] <tantek> gsnedders - what are you "optimizing" for?
  174. [17:42:50] <tantek> gsnedders, and yes, that being said, it's better to just do something like <span class="dtstart">2008-06-24</span>
  175. [17:43:08] <tantek> providing the same international date content to everybody
  176. [17:43:25] <tantek> rather than using abbr to send different content to different audiences
  177. [17:43:35] <gsnedders> tantek: For the µf that allow any sort of ISO8601 date, JAWS reading of (IIRC) <abbr title=20090907>today</abbr> is still suboptimal
  178. [17:43:53] <gsnedders> (As if my memory serves me correctly that'll be read as a single number)
  179. [17:44:16] <tantek> gsnedders - agreed that reading of "20090907" is not understandable as a date - it's read as twenty million, ninety thousand, nine hundred seven.
  180. [17:44:18] <tantek> HOWEVER
  181. [17:44:23] <tantek> with hyphens it works
  182. [17:44:29] <tantek> "2009-09-07"
  183. [17:44:42] <gsnedders> tantek: Right, but that's a subset of all conforming µf documents
  184. [17:45:08] <tantek> gsnedders not sure what point you're making there
  185. [17:45:21] <tantek> if you want to author more accessible content with microformats, there are techniques for doing so
  186. [17:46:07] <gsnedders> The problem is only solved for _some_ µf documents. It shouldn't be the case you have to use specific optional syntax to be accessible. That optional syntax should be compulsory.
  187. [17:46:51] <tantek> gsnedders - agreed. it is being made a requirement in hCalendar 1.0.1
  188. [17:47:03] <tantek> (MUST)
  189. [17:47:18] <tantek> and (MUST NOT) for non-hyphenated dates and non-colonized times
  190. [17:50:53] <gsnedders> Great. Anyhow, I'm at the point where the on-train internet access often drops to a few bytes per second.
  191. [17:51:15] <tantek> gsnedders - the feedback and reinforcement of such points is appreciated. thank you.
  192. [17:52:34] * gsnedders looks over the Firth of Forth, getting close to home for the first time in three and a half months
  193. [17:52:54] <factoryjoe> tantek: made the change
  194. [17:55:54] <tantek> factoryjoe - thanks much - there are many pages that need updating, and even just heads-up notes like that help as interim/incremental solutions until wiki editors/contributors have time to more fully edit articles to bring them up to date.
  195. [17:56:04] <factoryjoe> cool
  196. [17:56:05] <factoryjoe> np
  197. [17:56:27] <tantek> factoryjoe - also - on a tangent - how have you kept up with updating all your wordpress related blogs to 2.8.4?
  198. [17:56:38] <factoryjoe> manually
  199. [17:56:43] <factoryjoe> though using the built-in updater
  200. [17:56:49] <factoryjoe> that helps a lot
  201. [17:57:02] <factoryjoe> my theme is out of date
  202. [17:57:07] <factoryjoe> i need to rewrite it
  203. [17:57:08] <factoryjoe> :(
  204. [18:01:24] <tantek> factoryjoe - yes, it seems like a lot of work to maintain a wordpress install.
  205. [18:01:31] <factoryjoe> these days
  206. [18:01:44] <tantek> not a good UX for people who want to "own their own domain/identity" on the web
  207. [18:01:59] <tantek> it's too much work, even for a lot of (most?) techies
  208. [18:02:36] * madness (n=mng@ip70-176-92-111.ph.ph.cox.net) Quit ()
  209. [18:02:45] <factoryjoe> well
  210. [18:02:53] <factoryjoe> that's one of the costs of "owning your own identity"
  211. [18:03:04] <factoryjoe> however — if you do own your own identity, it should really just be ONE install...
  212. [18:03:16] <factoryjoe> that said, things shift when you're rebuilding infrastructure
  213. [18:03:30] <factoryjoe> the web was designed for documents, not people
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  223. [19:03:59] <singpolyma> tantek: I keep mine up to date with the Dreamhost magical update button. Haven't needed to change my theme in some time, although if you use default themes that's more guarenteed
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  335. [20:52:02] <to_> tan
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  367. [22:58:54] * epeus (n=KevinMar@c-67-164-14-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.