IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-09-07
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [07:47:44] <dom_>
Moin!
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- [11:15:58] <dom_>
I'm gettings errors about the date in my hatom documents ... http://tools.microformatic.com/transcode/atom/hatom/http://www.math.uni-bonn.de/people/support/test.html
- [11:16:05] <dom_>
Maybe somebody could take a look?
- [11:16:20] <dom_>
Invalid input: Year part is not 4 digits long and/or contains invalid characters(Error code: 02)
- [11:31:41] <tobyink>
This pattern: <span class="value-title" title="2009-08-12"> </span>12. August 2009
- [11:31:46] <tobyink>
is not widely implemented yet.
- [11:49:12] <dom_>
Too bad
- [11:53:27] <tobyink>
The <abbr> pattern works in the vast majority of parsers. It suffers from some accessibility problems, though if you just use dates (not datetimes) it's not too bad.
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- [12:48:21] <dom_>
tobyink: I just really hate this tooltips on my dates
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- [13:25:33] <dom_>
Is there any way to hide the tooltips via css?!
- [13:27:14] <gsnedders>
dom_: You can't
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- [14:08:42] <tobyink>
dom_: only by hiding the entire element.
- [14:12:33] <dom_>
I'll just get used to it... :)
- [14:12:36] <dom_>
tobyink: But thanks!
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- [16:47:20] <tantek>
tommorris let me know how the London Linked Data meeting goes, and good to hear that you had a chance to talk with Brian Suda about XMDP-to-RDFS mapping/transformation.
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- [17:20:29] <to_>
any POSH pattern to display tweets?
- [17:27:43] <factoryjoe>
to_: just use hAtom
- [17:31:29] <to_>
I've set: <ol><li><cite>me</cite><blockquote><p>I'm happy today</p></blockquote></li> but what tag to display the date of the tweet?
- [17:31:47] <TabAtkins>
<time>
- [17:32:09] <to_>
really <time> ?
- [17:32:09] <factoryjoe>
TabAtkins: there's no <time> tag?
- [17:32:14] <to_>
oO
- [17:32:17] <factoryjoe>
srsly
- [17:32:19] <TabAtkins>
HTML5. Love it.
- [17:32:29] <factoryjoe>
heh
- [17:32:36] <to_>
TabAtkins: no but this time it should be HTML4
- [17:32:40] <to_>
:)
- [17:32:46] <TabAtkins>
<time datetime="i'm a datetime in ISO8601 or whatever">I'm a date in human-readable form</time>
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- [17:33:28] <TabAtkins>
<time> will work in older browsers. You just gotta run the ol' document.createElement('time') trick for IE if you want to style it.
- [17:34:41] <to_>
TabAtkins: no but I'm just looking for a semantic HTML4 markup for this actually, no JS
- [17:35:00] <TabAtkins>
Then <span class=time>
- [17:35:11] <TabAtkins>
There isn't anything more semantic in html4.
- [17:35:45] <factoryjoe>
<abbr>
- [17:35:52] <factoryjoe>
look up the date-time pattern
- [17:36:08] <TabAtkins>
That's got accessibility issues, though (which is one of the big reasons <time> was created).
- [17:36:23] <factoryjoe>
sure
- [17:36:33] <factoryjoe>
except those issues have, to my knowledge, largely been addressed
- [17:36:47] <factoryjoe>
http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern
- [17:36:58] <factoryjoe>
http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#HTML_5_.3Ctime.3E_Element
- [17:37:08] <gsnedders>
How have they been addressed? AT will still read the abbr out.
- [17:37:44] <factoryjoe>
http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#accessibility_issues
- [17:37:45] <tantek>
TabAtkins - the accessibility issues have been solved months ago: http://tr.im/valueclass
- [17:37:57] <tantek>
factoryjoe - those pages need updating
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- [17:38:05] <factoryjoe>
i see that
- [17:38:06] <tantek>
refer to the value-class-pattern page *first*
- [17:38:21] <factoryjoe>
it would be good to make that notice on the date-design pattern page... like, in BOLD
- [17:38:27] <tantek>
TabAtkins - <time> is also insufficient to address all the needs from microformats.
- [17:38:33] <factoryjoe>
gsnedders: see this: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern
- [17:38:51] <TabAtkins>
Ah, so using <abbr> only for dates, where the accessibility isn't bad, then marking the time separately. Okay.
- [17:38:55] <gsnedders>
<abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">this Tuesday</abbr> still doesn't help :\ (from that page)
- [17:38:57] <tantek>
factoryjoe - perhaps you could add a note like that at the top of the date-time-design pattern page?
- [17:39:11] <gsnedders>
I mean, sure, it's better. But it still isn't brilliant.
- [17:39:18] <tantek>
gsnedders - why do you say "that doesn't help?"
- [17:39:18] <factoryjoe>
ok
- [17:39:51] <TabAtkins>
tantek: Are you talking about date ranges and fuzzy dates?
- [17:40:07] <tantek>
TabAtkins - yes, just for dates, it's not bad, because ISO8601 dates are both readable and listenable, in fact, the *most* human readable world wide.
- [17:40:33] <gsnedders>
If I'm using something like JAWS then I still get the date read out whereas I don't see it in a visual UA, IMO that's suboptimal.
- [17:40:50] <tantek>
TabAtkins - see http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#time for starters
- [17:40:57] <tantek>
durations are another problem that <time> fails to address
- [17:41:27] <TabAtkins>
tantek: Yeah, that's what I thought. Those can be worked around, but overall I personally agree that less precision should be allowed in some way.
- [17:41:28] <tantek>
gsnedders - depends on your JAWS settings
- [17:41:44] <tantek>
gsnedders - do you have an actual example or are you simply copy/pasting what others' claim?
- [17:42:03] <tantek>
gsnedders - what are you "optimizing" for?
- [17:42:50] <tantek>
gsnedders, and yes, that being said, it's better to just do something like <span class="dtstart">2008-06-24</span>
- [17:43:08] <tantek>
providing the same international date content to everybody
- [17:43:25] <tantek>
rather than using abbr to send different content to different audiences
- [17:43:35] <gsnedders>
tantek: For the µf that allow any sort of ISO8601 date, JAWS reading of (IIRC) <abbr title=20090907>today</abbr> is still suboptimal
- [17:43:53] <gsnedders>
(As if my memory serves me correctly that'll be read as a single number)
- [17:44:16] <tantek>
gsnedders - agreed that reading of "20090907" is not understandable as a date - it's read as twenty million, ninety thousand, nine hundred seven.
- [17:44:18] <tantek>
HOWEVER
- [17:44:23] <tantek>
with hyphens it works
- [17:44:29] <tantek>
"2009-09-07"
- [17:44:42] <gsnedders>
tantek: Right, but that's a subset of all conforming µf documents
- [17:45:08] <tantek>
gsnedders not sure what point you're making there
- [17:45:21] <tantek>
if you want to author more accessible content with microformats, there are techniques for doing so
- [17:46:07] <gsnedders>
The problem is only solved for _some_ µf documents. It shouldn't be the case you have to use specific optional syntax to be accessible. That optional syntax should be compulsory.
- [17:46:51] <tantek>
gsnedders - agreed. it is being made a requirement in hCalendar 1.0.1
- [17:47:03] <tantek>
(MUST)
- [17:47:18] <tantek>
and (MUST NOT) for non-hyphenated dates and non-colonized times
- [17:50:53] <gsnedders>
Great. Anyhow, I'm at the point where the on-train internet access often drops to a few bytes per second.
- [17:51:15] <tantek>
gsnedders - the feedback and reinforcement of such points is appreciated. thank you.
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- [17:52:54] <factoryjoe>
tantek: made the change
- [17:55:54] <tantek>
factoryjoe - thanks much - there are many pages that need updating, and even just heads-up notes like that help as interim/incremental solutions until wiki editors/contributors have time to more fully edit articles to bring them up to date.
- [17:56:04] <factoryjoe>
cool
- [17:56:05] <factoryjoe>
np
- [17:56:27] <tantek>
factoryjoe - also - on a tangent - how have you kept up with updating all your wordpress related blogs to 2.8.4?
- [17:56:38] <factoryjoe>
manually
- [17:56:43] <factoryjoe>
though using the built-in updater
- [17:56:49] <factoryjoe>
that helps a lot
- [17:57:02] <factoryjoe>
my theme is out of date
- [17:57:07] <factoryjoe>
i need to rewrite it
- [17:57:08] <factoryjoe>
:(
- [18:01:24] <tantek>
factoryjoe - yes, it seems like a lot of work to maintain a wordpress install.
- [18:01:31] <factoryjoe>
these days
- [18:01:44] <tantek>
not a good UX for people who want to "own their own domain/identity" on the web
- [18:01:59] <tantek>
it's too much work, even for a lot of (most?) techies
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- [18:02:45] <factoryjoe>
well
- [18:02:53] <factoryjoe>
that's one of the costs of "owning your own identity"
- [18:03:04] <factoryjoe>
however — if you do own your own identity, it should really just be ONE install...
- [18:03:16] <factoryjoe>
that said, things shift when you're rebuilding infrastructure
- [18:03:30] <factoryjoe>
the web was designed for documents, not people
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- [19:03:59] <singpolyma>
tantek: I keep mine up to date with the Dreamhost magical update button. Haven't needed to change my theme in some time, although if you use default themes that's more guarenteed
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- [20:52:02] <to_>
tan
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on
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using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.
See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.