IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-09-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  96. [17:36:28] <ethicaljunction> Hey guys
  97. [17:37:08] <ethicaljunction> If I want to work on developing the hListing brainstorm a bit more - whats the best way to proceed, there seems to be a good foundation there.
  98. [17:37:13] <ethicaljunction> http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-brainstorming
  99. [17:41:49] * themattharris (n=thematth@24.130.115.72) Quit ("zzZZ")
  100. [17:42:49] <ethicaljunction> I've found the http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do page - which I'm going to review and add to if necessary :)
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  130. [21:14:03] <tantek> ethicaljunction there's been a lot of work on hListing, and it's still considered a relatively "new" format
  131. [21:14:11] <tantek> I'd suggest also joining the microformats-new mailing list
  132. [21:14:20] <tantek> and sending a posting out saying you'd like to help contribute to it
  133. [21:14:38] <tantek> so that folks who have worked on it so far can get to know you and you can all work together
  134. [21:14:52] <tantek> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new/
  135. [21:15:02] <ethicaljunction> tantek: ok - I'm coding up some hlistings now in BBedit - just to get my head around it .. I'll join now, thanks.
  136. [21:15:13] <tantek> excellent - I use BBEdit as well
  137. [21:16:05] <tantek> just saw your /wiki/to-do additions, looks good
  138. [21:16:39] <ethicaljunction> I've refrained from upgrading from 8.x to 9.x (BBedit) - but am tempted to - not sure how much of a shock it will be.
  139. [21:19:00] <ethicaljunction> thanks - need to try and keep up to date with work on the wiki - the more I use microformats - the deeper I'll get into the site, really well organised tantek .
  140. [21:19:55] * Prometheus\off is now known as Prometheus
  141. [21:25:22] <tantek> I'm still using BBEdit 7.1.4 - works fine, is compatible with Classic etc. ;)
  142. [21:26:02] <tantek> thanks for your kind words. and the wiki can still be improved a lot - welcome on board!
  143. [21:36:22] <ethicaljunction> Cheers ! I still have an old Titanium Powerbook (550Mhz G4) - Good for classic :) - keep wondering what I should do with it.
  144. [21:37:03] <ethicaljunction> Anyhow - I've just sent an email to microformats-new - lets see what happens next.
  145. [21:37:42] <tantek> great - that should work
  146. [21:37:52] <tantek> and definitely encourage folks to join you in IRC to discuss things more quickly
  147. [21:38:00] <tantek> there's quite a bit of interest in hListing
  148. [21:40:04] <ethicaljunction> cool - I've not seen anything from mailman yet - maybe google has filed it in spam (checking)
  149. [21:40:21] <tantek> be sure to set your client to send as plain text
  150. [21:40:30] <tantek> and send from the address you signed up with
  151. [21:40:56] <tantek> looks like it made it to the archives:
  152. [21:40:56] <tantek> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2009-September/002093.html
  153. [21:40:59] <tantek> that's you right?
  154. [21:41:09] <ethicaljunction> yup
  155. [21:41:28] <tantek> great. add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people also
  156. [21:41:45] <ethicaljunction> so its been filed as spam in gmail - fixing that now.
  157. [21:41:47] <tantek> since you have more than one alias and it will help people correlate usernames :)
  158. [21:42:42] <ethicaljunction> hmmm thought about changing my irc nick
  159. [21:43:06] <ethicaljunction> originally I returned to IRC (after a long break) purely for one thing to do with the company (hence ethicaljunction)
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  161. [21:43:53] <ethicaljunction> I might create/ a new ID for irc - tally's more with my online id .. in fact the more I think of it .. signing up for a new freenode nick now :)
  162. [21:46:31] <JonathanMalek> tantek: could we open a page dedicated to the "at-most-one-required" concept? Perhaps it's already opened, and I missed it?
  163. [21:46:50] <JonathanMalek> I'd like to explore one of the key concepts (Martin addressed it earlier today)
  164. [21:47:46] <JonathanMalek> where the choice is between nothing, and using a microformat, it is nearly self-evident that "required" fields are problematic
  165. [21:50:30] <tantek> JonathanMalek - I'm convinced that it should be nothing required now.
  166. [21:50:38] <tantek> the root class alone should mean something
  167. [21:50:47] <tantek> and it makes it *much* easier for folks to get started with microformats
  168. [21:50:57] <tantek> (having run this by first-timers at workshops etc.)
  169. [21:51:05] <tantek> out for lunch
  170. [21:51:06] <tantek> bbiab
  171. [21:52:21] <JonathanMalek> however, when there is a gradient of choices, one that presents an increasingly specific expression, I think it's worth considering the exact opposite of that approach--in other words, in specialized derivatives of broad microformats, *nothing* should be optional.
  172. [21:54:08] <JonathanMalek> anything (and here, this might be exaggerated) worth capturing as "optional" should be promoted into the base. I'm thinking here specifically of the news format to hatom, where the optional "geo" I believe should be promoted into hatom, and removed from the news format.
  173. [21:57:12] <JonathanMalek> tantek: for when you get back, I agree with you. I wonder, however, if there isn't a bit of a false dilemma where the news format is concerned: if someone cannot produce the required fields, it isn't as if they can't produce a uF'd content. In fact, they can: every news formatted story is first and foremost an hatom hentry.
  174. [22:03:02] <JonathanMalek> That way, there is value in even taking the first step (and simply producing hatom). If the publisher, or anyone wanting to get started with microformats wants to start there, they can--and if there is any incentive to move to the stricter format, they can.
  175. [22:12:54] <JonathanMalek> Incidentally, the more I think about the "nothing required", the more I like it. The risk, it seems to me, is there isn't a single data point for you (as a consumer) to differentiate the information you're looking at. It might be that in an effort to avoid the "90210" effect on data, we tumble into the "wasteland" effect, full of partially described and often indistinguishable points of data.
  176. [22:13:14] * themattharris (n=thematth@67.180.202.79) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  177. [22:15:25] <JonathanMalek> I suppose the compensation for that then is that consumers can choose when to ignore content, deciding for themselves what is "enough". For instance, Google might decide to ignore certain hcalendar events that don't provide enough information for *them*. Is that your intent?
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  181. [22:40:57] <madness> isn't the argument over whether it is hnews or hatom a semantic and philosophical one to a point ?
  182. [22:41:10] <madness> (jon, in case you haven't noticed, this is Mark Ng)
  183. [22:41:41] <madness> if we accept that *everything* is optional, then hnews just defines some extra data points you can add to make it more "news flavoured"
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  185. [22:42:43] <madness> I've always thought the principles battle is better fought in the way that creative commons have
  186. [22:43:23] <madness> the only thing that changed my mind about that a bit is the fact that actually it *is* an existing pattern
  187. [22:43:43] <madness> particularly when we add next-in-parent to principles, as we were discussing yesterday in response to Miles
  188. [22:44:27] <madness> JonathanMalek: fyi, themattharris has been working with us a little bit, too. He's finishing off some of my earlier practical experiments with crawlers and APIs
  189. [22:47:27] <madness> themattharris: if you've been catching the conversation, your opinion may be useful
  190. [22:47:57] <themattharris> i'm just reading over it
  191. [22:48:14] <themattharris> wifi connection slipped so i missed a segment
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  194. [22:50:52] <madness> themattharris: I'll paste it to you via skype
  195. [22:56:36] <themattharris> thanks Mark
  196. [22:56:40] <madness> np
  197. [23:00:55] <madness> so, Matt was suggesting that it's pointless parser load for an article specifying hnews if it doesn't have one of the currently required fields, also
  198. [23:01:02] <madness> though I'm not sure how much we care about parser load
  199. [23:01:29] <themattharris> so looking over the bits i missed from the log we're talking about whether any fields in hnews should be required or not. My view is at least one field should be required for the hnews container to be used. Most likely principles (through rel='principles'). Otherwise markup would include the hnews container class but have no hnews data elements. So if an item has no hnews fields, then don't mark it up as hnews (leave the class
  200. [23:01:29] <themattharris> off). It's better doing that than having every field optional as this way a parser is still going to look for hnews content even when there is none.
  201. [23:01:52] <madness> which is an interesting idea
  202. [23:02:18] <madness> JonathanMalek: how important are rights, datelines and source organisations as required elements ?
  203. [23:02:33] <madness> JonathanMalek: rights don't have to be expressed for a document to be news, right ?
  204. [23:03:03] <madness> JonathanMalek: and a source organisation would be considered as default the organisation which is publishing it ?
  205. [23:03:16] <madness> JonathanMalek: does a marked up dateline make it "news" ?
  206. [23:05:11] <JonathanMalek> madness: rights has been replaced with item-license (from the licensing-brainstorming page), and yes, it is required
  207. [23:05:21] <madness> sorry, I meant item-license
  208. [23:05:32] <JonathanMalek> dateline is currently optional, as some organizations do not provide a dateline.
  209. [23:05:40] <madness> yup
  210. [23:05:46] <themattharris> agreed
  211. [23:05:47] <JonathanMalek> and source-org is also required.
  212. [23:06:19] <madness> so, I'm looking at an option for many of Miles' issues being next-in-parent for both rights and principles
  213. [23:06:23] <themattharris> and source-org should still traverse back up the dom if it can't find one inside the hnews container?
  214. [23:06:51] <madness> but of course, when that's the case, rel-license should be valid *as well as* item-license
  215. [23:06:59] <madness> right ?
  216. [23:07:03] <JonathanMalek> I'm open to making item-license and principles follow the source-org approach.
  217. [23:07:38] <JonathanMalek> however, in an earlier discussion (looking for it now), I thought I caught a little dislike for the nearest-in-parent algorithm.
  218. [23:07:47] <JonathanMalek> it certainly simplifies things signfiicantly.
  219. [23:08:51] <madness> it's harder to parse, but I thought Miles' concerns about principles or rights statements being in other places would certainly be in a large (probably majority) of cases, true for other potential adopters
  220. [23:09:25] <madness> tantek: any known dislike or reason for dislike of nearest-in-parent ?
  221. [23:09:32] <JonathanMalek> that's certainly the feedback I've been looking for. That's been very helpful.
  222. [23:10:34] <JonathanMalek> madness: would you like to open a new issue, or pursue this as part of Miles' open issue?
  223. [23:10:55] <madness> JonathanMalek: nearest-in-parent seems to solve miles' rights issue.
  224. [23:10:56] <themattharris> would it be sites would commonly locate their rights/principles in the footer of the site, like IP/Copyright notices?
  225. [23:11:02] <madness> JonathanMalek: but not his principles issue
  226. [23:11:20] <madness> themattharris: yup, thus why we're considering nearest-in-parent with rel-license
  227. [23:11:39] <themattharris> ok, that was my understanding so it's good to have that confirmed
  228. [23:11:47] * tantek does some catching up
  229. [23:12:08] <tantek> nearest-in-parent makes sense to parser writers, but not so much to web authors
  230. [23:12:09] * madness should really surrender the irc nick he's had since he was 16 years old.
  231. [23:12:17] <tantek> it's a very "techy" expression
  232. [23:12:36] * madness is now known as markng
  233. [23:12:51] <tantek> and sounds like confusing jargon - actually worse - it uses "familiar" words in a way which has merely metaphorical resemblance to their familiar meaning
  234. [23:13:00] <tantek> welcome markng ;)
  235. [23:13:28] <markng> sorry, I'm in some other freenode channels that know me as that
  236. [23:13:33] <themattharris> from a developer point of view i see nearest-in-parent working, but for web authors i agree with Tantek that they won't necessarily get which the parent is. Thinking of the case where we have an author in the hatom. the nearest in parent for source-org if not defined would be that author - no?
  237. [23:13:34] <markng> but hey, I don't play #nethack anymore :P
  238. [23:14:16] <markng> so, is that a case of us not explaining nearest in parent well enough, or it being too complex a statement ?
  239. [23:14:47] <tantek> for hAtom it has been very confusing
  240. [23:14:52] <tantek> for authors
  241. [23:15:01] <tantek> markng - both
  242. [23:15:06] <themattharris> both
  243. [23:15:25] <markng> so introducing it in more elements for hnews would be a problem ?
  244. [23:15:30] <tantek> any time you have to depend on hierarchy, you will confuse a lot of authors
  245. [23:15:38] <markng> and is it a greater problem that it introduces than the problem it solves ?
  246. [23:15:45] <tantek> markng - yes - this is something that needs to be fixed in hAtom 0.4
  247. [23:15:57] <tantek> er, make that 0.2
  248. [23:16:02] <markng> I was going to say
  249. [23:16:10] * tantek was thinking hReview
  250. [23:16:12] <markng> what happened while I blinked ? :)
  251. [23:16:14] * thomasknoll (n=thomaskn@75-25-157-106.uvs.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) Quit ("Leaving.")
  252. [23:17:13] <tantek> themattharris - could you add the nearest-in-parent confusion issue to hatom-issues? http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues
  253. [23:18:26] <tantek> JonathanMalek - I just realized, it might help folks working on hNews get a broader view of the issues involved if hnews-issues (or where it got moved to) linked to hatom-issues as a see-also dependency.
  254. [23:18:52] <markng> I'll do that now.
  255. [23:19:02] <tantek> thanks markng
  256. [23:19:20] <tantek> markng btw, themattharris has your brand new microformats t-shirt :)
  257. [23:19:37] <markng> tantek: awesome. that sounds like a good excuse for me to come to SF ;)
  258. [23:19:51] <themattharris> markng - you need an excuse?
  259. [23:20:07] <markng> themattharris: well, no, but I have to get IPTC/Washington DC down first
  260. [23:20:31] <markng> themattharris: I mean, a t-shirt is a flimsy excuse ;)
  261. [23:21:27] <markng> is news-issues now large enough to be seperated from news-brainstorming ?
  262. [23:21:59] <themattharris> tantek - just reading through the issues on hatom at the moment. don't want to duplicate anything
  263. [23:22:15] <JonathanMalek> tantek: great point on linking to hatom-issues
  264. [23:22:41] <JonathanMalek> madness: I was keeping it all inline until it got large enough, happy to break it out.
  265. [23:24:30] <markng> added a link
  266. [23:24:35] <JonathanMalek> does any other microformat use neared-in-parent, besides hatom?
  267. [23:24:47] <JonathanMalek> neared->nearest
  268. [23:25:07] <markng> http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/algorithm-nearest-in-parent
  269. [23:25:12] <markng> doesn't look like it
  270. [23:26:28] * benward (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-hgpzpmovmrarkido) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  271. [23:26:38] <markng> so re: principles
  272. [23:27:28] <markng> the nearest-in-parent doesn't solve the other problems
  273. [23:27:44] <tantek> btw - another way folks tend to say things like "nearest-in-parent" is "inheritance"
  274. [23:27:46] <tantek> e.g. in CSS
  275. [23:28:17] <markng> so, I'm tempted to suggest that things that have no principles should just remain hatom and not have an hnews root
  276. [23:28:28] <markng> for the reasons matt suggests
  277. [23:28:37] <tantek> markng - that's kind of hilarious. it's not news if it doesn't have principles!
  278. [23:28:41] <tantek> ;)
  279. [23:28:51] <tantek> (and also misleading IMHO)
  280. [23:28:54] <markng> tantek: well, that's kind of my point ;)
  281. [23:29:15] <markng> tantek: but we had this conversation about philosophy and the differences between rel-principles and the microformats movement already
  282. [23:29:27] <tantek> did we?
  283. [23:29:49] <markng> tantek: yeah, when I was suggesting at ufdevcamp that rel-principles may not even belong to microformats anyway
  284. [23:30:11] <markng> in terms of documenting a pattern, as opposed to our campaign for publishers to publish their principles
  285. [23:30:23] <tantek> why? if it's a rel value, and has real world examples that could make it useful, it makes sense to research it and develop it as a microformat
  286. [23:30:34] <tantek> and I think you showed me existing sites that linked to their principles
  287. [23:30:35] <markng> well, yeah, I've changed my mind since then :P
  288. [23:31:03] <tantek> you could suggest it as a poshformat sure, but I think you are doing yourself a disservice
  289. [23:31:05] <markng> so I guess your argument is that it can be news and have no principles whatsoever
  290. [23:31:10] <tantek> I think your position is stronger than that
  291. [23:31:19] <markng> yeah, now that I've done a bit more work on it, I'm convinced of it too
  292. [23:31:23] <tantek> you just need to document the examples of news orgs that are already publishing their principles and linking to them
  293. [23:31:33] <markng> I've done a bit of that.
  294. [23:31:38] <tantek> start with http://microformats.org/wiki/principles-examples
  295. [23:31:57] <tantek> I mean continue with, of course :)
  296. [23:31:59] <markng> Should I also put a copy of the poshformat spec I already have in principles-brainstorming, too ?
  297. [23:32:34] <markng> http://newscredit.org/development/newscredit-specification/rel-principles-specification/
  298. [23:32:50] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-snuzmikaterdzwom) Quit ()
  299. [23:33:16] <markng> so, tantek what do you think makes it worth using the root container "hnews" class ?
  300. [23:36:40] <JonathanMalek> tantek: when you have time, would like to pick up the parent/inheritance thread.
  301. [23:37:02] <tantek> JonathanMalek - the right place to do that is in hAtom issues
  302. [23:37:22] <JonathanMalek> I understand that the algorithm is complex, but it is an alternative--not the only way to do things
  303. [23:37:35] <tantek> it's both the algorithm and the name
  304. [23:37:57] <tantek> I think it's actually making a simple thing unnecessarily complex
  305. [23:38:21] * tantek is a little annoyed with the rel-design-pattern page
  306. [23:38:26] <JonathanMalek> hmm
  307. [23:38:38] <tantek> just using a feature as it's defined, e.g. the rel attribute, is NOT a design pattern
  308. [23:38:42] <tantek> there is no "design"
  309. [23:38:44] <tantek> there is no "pattern"
  310. [23:38:52] <tantek> it's just "using a feature"
  311. [23:39:11] * tantek wonders if people call things "design patterns" just to make them sound more interesting
  312. [23:40:07] <JonathanMalek> well--I agree--I'll keep this on the wiki.
  313. [23:41:26] <markng> tantek: can change the text of rel-principles to reflect that, if you like.
  314. [23:43:48] <tantek> JonathanMalek - thank you - it's ok by me if whoever adds the "nearest-in-parent" complexity/comprehensibility issue to the wiki (hatom-issues) - we can then all expand on it and express aspects of the problem and possible solutions.
  315. [23:43:54] <tantek> markng - please do
  316. [23:44:06] <tantek> I just put a strong warning / instructions to fix at the top of http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-design-pattern
  317. [23:44:31] <markng> tbh, I was just blindly copying rel-license
  318. [23:45:06] <markng> that said, rel-license doesn't have that
  319. [23:45:20] <markng> so I must have either copied and earlier version, or something else.
  320. [23:46:49] <markng> http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/rel-design-pattern <-- there's alot to choose from
  321. [23:47:26] <tantek> yeah
  322. [23:47:44] * tantek should have nipped that in the bud long ago.
  323. [23:51:15] <markng> that's the thing about patterns ;)
  324. [23:51:20] <markng> people copy them ;)
  325. [23:52:25] <tantek> yeah, they tend to replicate

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