IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-11-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  81. [14:57:59] <abernier> hi chan
  82. [15:00:44] <abernier> I've now have a bookshelf http://abernier.name/books/ and I'd like to make a feed of it, so people can subscribe to my shelf... I thought to do it with hatom, but the problem is I don't want to make any other information appear on my shelf, especially a published/updated date which seems required with hatom... what is my solution to do this without any published/updated date?
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  123. [19:49:05] <DanC> hmm... uf wiki has gone gotta-login-to-edit? sigh.
  124. [19:51:16] <danbri> it's all the rage
  125. [19:51:44] <danbri> hey DanC, whatever became of your openid whitelist experiments ...? got an urls we can trade?
  126. [19:52:44] <tantek> DanC - yes - was necessary to require logins due to spammers
  127. [19:54:02] <danbri> barcamp wiki was suffering too
  128. [19:54:16] <danbri> it's awful, eating away at everything; directly or (by making edits harder) indirectly
  129. [19:56:49] <DanC> *and* a captcha, even though I'm logged in.
  130. [19:57:18] <DanC> hmm... what happened to the bot that used to announce edits here?
  131. [19:57:52] <DanC> tantek, http://microformats.org/wiki/mobile#Sidekick as requested
  132. [19:58:19] <DanC> the neurocommons wiki works the same way... login + captcha when you add links
  133. [19:58:32] <DanC> what sort of urls do you want, danbri?
  134. [19:58:54] <DanC> our openid whitelist experiement bitrotted when the students that grok drupal floated away
  135. [19:58:57] <danbri> i'd like a collection of urls of openids known to be rational non spammy humans
  136. [19:59:25] <DanC> I gave that to you, no? lemme find it again...
  137. [19:59:28] <danbri> i made an experiment dumping urls from openids in my own blog (wordpress), and loading them into a mediawiki group (admins in this case)
  138. [19:59:37] <danbri> you blogged it but I don't think i've the files currently
  139. [19:59:39] <danbri> thanks
  140. [19:59:45] * DanC thinks it's filed in google under "peanut butter openid"
  141. [19:59:59] <danbri> but sharing a whitelist of contributors across eg w3c, mozilla, microformats etc might be fun
  142. [20:00:01] <DanC> yeah... http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/206
  143. [20:00:20] <DanC> oh frap... the comments are all unpublished.
  144. [20:00:32] <tantek> danbri - shared whitelists and blocklists are both good use cases
  145. [20:00:36] <DanC> I put a pointer to the whitelist in a comment.
  146. [20:00:44] * danbri scans for an url for the openids themselves
  147. [20:00:53] * HerrTopf (n=cs@p5B3D770A.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  148. [20:01:02] <tantek> danbri see: http://microformats.org/wiki/block-list
  149. [20:01:27] <tobyink> spider your own social network up to 3 degrees of friendship, find open ids from those pages, problem solved. ;-)
  150. [20:01:39] <danbri> i had an idea for something like a list/group construct in which people nominate 7+-2 other people/urls as interesting in an unconstrained way; then crawl that
  151. [20:02:06] <danbri> is there any popular microformat markup for organizing people/hcards/xfn into groups or lists?
  152. [20:02:09] <DanC> wild... some part of our whitelist thingy lives on... in a drupal admin page, I see: "whitelist 2009-11-04 09:26 Whitelist reloaded from file"
  153. [20:02:20] <tantek> danbri - xoxo for blogrolls
  154. [20:02:31] <danbri> got an example handy?
  155. [20:02:33] <tantek> the original "portable contacts" ;)
  156. [20:02:42] <tantek> see both
  157. [20:02:49] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
  158. [20:02:54] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring
  159. [20:03:00] <danbri> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1835.txt was another original PC :)
  160. [20:04:06] <tobyink> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1777.txt was another
  161. [20:04:13] <DanC> sorry, danbri, I'm trying to find the drupal comment where I squirreled away the whitelist pointer, but I'm losing.
  162. [20:04:20] <DanC> and it's time for lunch here in Santa Clara
  163. [20:04:59] <danbri> fading here too, but i'd love to pick this up again, spam is such a downer for us all
  164. [20:05:11] * DanC chalks up another reason to hate php, even though that's not all that fair to php
  165. [20:05:18] <danbri> tantek, is anyone looking at upgrading microformats wiki to use the openid addon?
  166. [20:05:29] <danbri> fwiw it got better in the last 2 or 3 years
  167. [20:05:37] <gsnedders> DanC: I only have a list of around 30 reasons to hate PHP :)
  168. [20:05:38] <danbri> i had an early version on the foaf wiki and it was poorly integrated, much smoother now and fails less too
  169. [20:06:03] * DanC (n=connolly@72-254-56-249.client.stsn.net) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  170. [20:06:12] <tobyink> I use PHP on a regular basis, so I may well have the most.
  171. [20:06:19] <danbri> i also crawled lists.w3.org and made some experiments sending the email addresses to google social graph API ... could probably get some base list of openids from there
  172. [20:06:39] <danbri> maybe mozilla bugzilla has more such homepages-as-openids, etc
  173. [20:06:50] <tantek> danbri - I think it was one of the items on http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do - but last time we tried the extension was pretty crappy
  174. [20:07:01] <tantek> show me the OpenID wiki itself using it successfully and then we'll talk ;)
  175. [20:07:10] <danbri> heheh, fair point
  176. [20:07:18] <tobyink> As of a few years ago didn't lists.w3.org add that confirmation e-mail for any new e-mail addresses?
  177. [20:07:23] <danbri> yes
  178. [20:07:35] <tobyink> If so, then any addresses since then should be clean(er).
  179. [20:07:41] <danbri> but even if i pick up a few spammer emails from years ago, very unlikely they are still in use
  180. [20:07:48] <danbri> let alone associated with actively spamming openids
  181. [20:07:57] * MrTopf (n=cs@p5B3D770A.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  182. [20:07:57] * HerrTopf is now known as MrTopf
  183. [20:08:03] <tobyink> good point. And probably not found in SGAPI
  184. [20:08:23] <danbri> btw tantek, i have a new friendship proposal for you, since you spurned me on Facebook ;)
  185. [20:08:25] <danbri> -> http://wiki.foaf-project.org/w/FOAFLists
  186. [20:08:40] <tantek> danbri - I haven't logged into fb in >2yrs - don't take it personally.
  187. [20:08:44] <danbri> it's an experiment also in integration foaf and xfn by using foaf's group mechanism as a way of expressing xfn concepts
  188. [20:08:47] <tantek> just was shocked to see your invite ;)
  189. [20:08:49] <danbri> ah i don't :)
  190. [20:09:05] <danbri> it was one of those "[3rd user suggests a friend]" tricks from Facebook
  191. [20:09:08] <danbri> Charlton i think
  192. [20:09:36] <danbri> but actually i love facebook, in a constrained sort of way. It trains people to appreciate what the Web can do...
  193. [20:10:00] <danbri> and eventually it'll melt away like everything else
  194. [20:10:42] <danbri> foaflists is just a quick braindump, but idea is to push a lot of modelling into URI-named groups, rather than directly into names for inter-personal relationships
  195. [20:11:05] <tantek> tommorris, this blog post illustrates the kind of problem I'm talking about: http://tripletalk.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/microformats-in-rdf/
  196. [20:11:26] <tantek> the very assumption of "best practice mappings from microformats to RDF."
  197. [20:11:34] <tantek> stop mapping and just use the URIs
  198. [20:12:03] <vensilver> how do's it work
  199. [20:12:08] <tantek> lunchtime
  200. [20:12:10] * tantek (n=tantek@72-254-104-232.client.stsn.net) Quit ()
  201. [20:12:31] <vensilver> bang bang
  202. [20:13:12] <vensilver> hello phae
  203. [20:14:02] * danbri curious for feedback on http://wiki.foaf-project.org/w/FOAFLists but heading off soon too
  204. [20:17:24] <tobyink> danbri: not really sure what foaflists is supposed to *solve*.
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  206. [20:18:51] <tobyink> Given that URIs are opaque, I can't really derive much meaning from the fact that a person is a member of #danbri-wouldliketoknowbetter.
  207. [20:18:54] <TabAtkins> Is it okay to do, frex, <h1 class="fn org"><img src=foo alt="My Company Name"></h1>
  208. [20:19:22] <TabAtkins> That is, is it all right to use the alt-text as the value of the property?
  209. [20:19:55] <tobyink> TabAtkins: IIRC Swignition supports this, but not much else.
  210. [20:20:02] * krijnh (n=krijnhoe@ktk.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  211. [20:20:07] <vensilver> dude what is going on let me know too
  212. [20:20:08] <danbri> tobyink, but it becomes a think we can annotate with other info (eg. links to wikipedia or skos topics)
  213. [20:20:13] <danbri> s/think/thing/
  214. [20:20:13] <tobyink> Better results from <h1><img class="fn org" src=foo alt="My Company Name"></h1>
  215. [20:20:30] <TabAtkins> tobyink: Thanks, that's doable for me
  216. [20:21:50] <tobyink> danbri, be we can annotate the people with skos/dbpedia/etc anyway - why indirection via a group? (other than possible conciseness)
  217. [20:22:47] <danbri> conciseness
  218. [20:22:57] <danbri> and consistency
  219. [20:23:09] <vensilver> tobyink can u tell what are you speaking about
  220. [20:24:23] <tobyink> I don't think there's *that* much conciseness benefit. Assuming a group has one common interest, for every { ?person foaf:interest ?thing } triple you save, you gain a { ?group foaf:member ?person } triple.
  221. [20:24:42] <tobyink> vensilver: about http://wiki.foaf-project.org/w/FOAFLists
  222. [20:27:32] <danbri> if i have a group of 50 ex-joost staff, in stead of 50x foaf:interest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_television i just assert it once, for the group
  223. [20:27:45] <danbri> and we could s/interest/expertise/ etc
  224. [20:29:03] * MrTopf (n=cs@p5B3D770A.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit ()
  225. [20:29:48] <danbri> so reducing some repetition, since we can say other things at the group level too (workplaceHomepage <http://www.joost.com/> etc)
  226. [20:30:10] <danbri> but also distributing responsibility; you can have one party describe the group; and another add people to it eg via twitter/identica lists
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  229. [20:33:09] <tobyink> But if you have [ a foaf:Group ; foaf:workplaceHomepage <http://www.joost.com/> ; foaf:member ... ] then you miss out picking up all those individuals in, say, SPARQL queries looking for people with foaf:workplaceHomepage <http://www.joost.com/>.
  230. [20:33:36] <danbri> danc, http://dig.csail.mit.edu/auth/breadcrumbs
  231. [20:33:50] <danbri> via http://web.archive.org/web/20071212231713/http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/206
  232. [20:33:53] <danbri> but its nearly empty
  233. [20:34:38] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@97.103.101.66) has joined #microformats
  234. [20:35:29] <danbri> tobyink, you're assuming anyone will bother creating the data at the individual level
  235. [20:35:57] <danbri> whereas generating it from the group is pretty trivial (no fancy logic stuff needed)
  236. [20:36:30] <tobyink> Perhaps a POWDER-like solution? POWER allows you to make the same set of statements about a bunch of different resources.
  237. [20:36:31] <danbri> lists are also nice for making venn diagram- style compositions, to use in filtering info views (eg. inbox, twitter, feed readers)
  238. [20:37:20] <danbri> yes, i have been hassling leigh dodds and danja to patch POWDER support into Leigh's crawler, so you could have it assert "everyone whose openid is http://microformats.org/team/*" is in xyz-list
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  263. [22:26:22] <lgonze> Is there an hAudio editor?
  264. [22:29:54] <lgonze> A paralle to the hCard creator is what I'm thinking of. Something to generate embeddable HTML.
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