IRC Log for #microformats on 2010-02-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  37. [14:46:38] <mwunsch> Can anybody point me to some good examples of vCards?
  38. [14:46:40] * memload_ (~jamesjeff@5ac8e676.bb.sky.com) Quit (Quit: memload_)
  39. [14:46:43] <mwunsch> Want to make sure i'm structuring mine properly
  40. [15:02:11] <csarven> mwunsch There are plenty in the wiki hcard-examples
  41. [15:02:30] <csarven> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild
  42. [15:09:22] <mwunsch> csarven: thanks
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  69. [18:35:02] <manu-home> hey tantek: trying to get Julian to join...
  70. [18:35:14] <tantek> hey manu
  71. [18:38:32] <tantek> ok I have an unrelated question, how is http://to./ a valid URL, and what is the TLD?
  72. [18:38:53] <manu-home> While we wait, here's the HTML WG issue that is related to @profile in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
  73. [18:39:32] <manu-home> looks like .to is the TLD?
  74. [18:39:36] * reschke (~chatzilla@p508FC732.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  75. [18:39:53] <manu-home> Hi Julian :)
  76. [18:40:08] <reschke> good evening :-)
  77. [18:40:14] * manu-home has never heard of .to TLD.
  78. [18:40:25] <reschke> Togo?
  79. [18:40:25] * manu-home would like to register http://go.to/
  80. [18:40:50] <reschke> appears you're too late
  81. [18:40:55] <reschke> ok then
  82. [18:41:03] <manu-home> Tonga
  83. [18:41:10] <reschke> O I c
  84. [18:41:20] <manu-home> Tonga TLD == .to, but still no idea why http://to./ works
  85. [18:41:26] <manu-home> anyway, @Profile.
  86. [18:41:43] <manu-home> Julian, we're discussing ISSUE-55, right?
  87. [18:41:50] <reschke> Tantek's proposal has the nice property of not requiring the support of a certain set of people.
  88. [18:41:53] <manu-home> in the HTML WG tracker?
  89. [18:42:11] <manu-home> I think RDFa community would support @profile everywhere.
  90. [18:42:23] <reschke> yes, that's the issue
  91. [18:42:37] <manu-home> we may process it differently, but from what I understand, that would be fine.
  92. [18:42:49] <reschke> so if we made this a stand-alone spec
  93. [18:43:09] <reschke> we'd also allow it everywhere - so we would go beyond what HTML4 said
  94. [18:43:17] <reschke> right?
  95. [18:43:22] <tantek> reschke - I don't really see any political aspects as a strength or weakness - I'd rather focus on the technical and documentation merits.
  96. [18:43:57] <manu-home> tantek - here's the previous @profile proposal that we worked on: http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/html5-epb.html
  97. [18:44:01] <reschke> sure, but I've had enough of politics over the last seven days, so less controversy sounds good to me
  98. [18:44:20] <manu-home> It was just an attempt at a proposal... but that is the form we're thinking about, right?
  99. [18:44:22] <tantek> I think the idea is worthy on its technical and architectural merit
  100. [18:44:30] * manu-home agrees.
  101. [18:44:36] * reschke too
  102. [18:44:50] <tantek> manu - haven't had time to review your draft. I was envisioning something simple starting from what I wrote up for XMDP.
  103. [18:44:50] <reschke> If it wasn't we wouldn't be discussing it
  104. [18:44:59] <tantek> and then extending that to every element
  105. [18:45:02] <manu-home> but HTML WG has a difficult history... so we need to at least be aware of that going forward.
  106. [18:45:16] <reschke> So Manu's "old" document has @profile for <head>, link/@rel=profile, and "my" HTML 4.01 erratum
  107. [18:45:26] <tantek> manu - I'd rather proceed forward with assumption of good faith.
  108. [18:45:28] <reschke> would it make sense to use that as a staring point?
  109. [18:45:42] <reschke> ...starting...
  110. [18:45:56] <manu-home> tantek: yes, we're proceeding with assumption of good faith.
  111. [18:46:00] <reschke> yep
  112. [18:46:12] <tantek> I'd rather start with XMDP and extend it to all elements
  113. [18:46:18] <reschke> which brinngs us to the question - *where* do we want to do that
  114. [18:46:23] <manu-home> here's what I'm concerned about: if we miss the deadline for @profile response.
  115. [18:46:28] <manu-home> that takes @profile off of the table
  116. [18:46:29] <tantek> It's fairly minimal and neutral
  117. [18:46:43] <manu-home> not only for HTML spec, but for any future separate spec, IIRC.
  118. [18:46:47] <reschke> I think we need to be able to communicate a plan
  119. [18:46:49] <tantek> manu - I disagree - it takes @profile in the core HTML5 spec off the table
  120. [18:46:54] <tantek> which I think is fine
  121. [18:47:21] <manu-home> Maciej just argued that just because something is split apart, or put together in the HTML5 spec, it doesn't change the scope of what the issues apply to.
  122. [18:47:26] <reschke> Manu - RDFa-in-XHTML doesn't use @profile, right?
  123. [18:47:38] <manu-home> RDFa in XHTML /does/ use @profile.
  124. [18:47:46] <manu-home> but it's a SHOULD, not a MUST.
  125. [18:47:52] <reschke> but doesn't require - right
  126. [18:48:08] <tantek> I think the problem is with abstract extensibility being in the core HTML5 spec
  127. [18:48:18] <reschke> ok, so from that point of view it would be a spec that RDFa-in-HTML would want to cite, right?
  128. [18:48:28] <manu-home> I agree with the sentiment and want that to be the way it is, Tantek - but we just had something happen in HTML WG that demonstrates that the chairs may not agree with us.
  129. [18:48:33] <tantek> perhaps - not clear that dependency is necessary
  130. [18:48:55] <tantek> manu - I'm confident that reasonable proposals made in good faith will be listened to
  131. [18:49:06] <tantek> I'd really like to minimize any rhetoric otherwise
  132. [18:49:22] <manu-home> ok
  133. [18:49:34] <reschke> which makes Tantek our spokesman :-)
  134. [18:49:42] <manu-home> I'd be fine with that.
  135. [18:49:50] <reschke> so...
  136. [18:49:53] <tantek> similarly, I'm also fine with posting the profile on any element proposal as a draft on microformats.org
  137. [18:49:59] <tantek> and contributing it to HTML WG
  138. [18:50:05] <manu-home> or you Julian - I'm slammed at the moment, so shouldn't be in the critical path for this.
  139. [18:50:14] <reschke> are we going to say: "yes we're doing a change proposal", but it involves creating a separate spec?
  140. [18:50:18] <tantek> since that's a pattern that is simi?p"to specs being posted on WHATWG and being contributed to HTMLWG
  141. [18:50:27] <tantek> this isn't a change proposal though
  142. [18:50:30] <tantek> that's the point
  143. [18:50:32] <tantek> this is a separate spec
  144. [18:50:40] <reschke> understood
  145. [18:50:49] <reschke> but I think Manu is right...
  146. [18:50:52] * manu-home is getting dejavu.
  147. [18:51:01] <tantek> I actually like the idea of keeping HTML5 more minimal
  148. [18:51:09] <reschke> ...in that letting the date slip away may weaken the position for adding it as a separate spec.
  149. [18:51:11] * manu-home agrees.
  150. [18:51:17] <reschke> but then
  151. [18:51:28] <reschke> this would be a spec with 3 independant supporters
  152. [18:51:38] <manu-home> also true.
  153. [18:51:40] <reschke> so Sam's rule should apply
  154. [18:51:48] <reschke> and we're *certainly* in scope
  155. [18:52:07] <reschke> as we're just saving/extending something that is in HTML4 and in use
  156. [18:52:18] <reschke> so separate spec it is?
  157. [18:52:33] <manu-home> yes
  158. [18:52:35] <manu-home> Julian - we're good if we just ask for an extension and say that the three of us are working on a proposal.
  159. [18:52:46] <reschke> sure
  160. [18:52:48] <manu-home> just to cover our bases.
  161. [18:52:49] <reschke> I can send email for that
  162. [18:52:53] <manu-home> great, thx.
  163. [18:53:02] <tantek> manu, I generally agree with section 3 HTML 4.01 Errata in your draft, as that seems compatible with XMDP
  164. [18:53:03] <reschke> do we want to talk about the venue where to write the spec?
  165. [18:53:08] <tantek> and the level of detail is appreciated
  166. [18:53:11] <reschke> I personally don't care.
  167. [18:53:15] <tantek> I'm not sure about the first part though
  168. [18:53:29] <reschke> I'd prefer not to have to drive it, but would certainly contribute stuff and moral support
  169. [18:53:31] <manu-home> I'm not tied to the first part in any way.
  170. [18:53:36] <tantek> ok
  171. [18:53:56] <manu-home> I didn't try @profile everywhere because there didn't seem to be support for it in HTML WG.
  172. [18:54:08] <manu-home> and we were going from no @profile, to @profile back in head.
  173. [18:54:16] <tantek> I've been transitioning and updating/errating XMDP to the microformats wiki overtime, and this is a good reason to generalize that and expand it to permit more flexible processing
  174. [18:54:18] <manu-home> going from no @profile to @profile everywhere might have freaked people out.
  175. [18:54:29] <reschke> it was discussed shortly and I think there was some sympathy for making it more useful if it reappears
  176. [18:54:50] <reschke> so it might be exactly the opposite
  177. [18:54:52] <tantek> manu - I agree that profile everywhere might "freak some people out" but that's only in the core spec IMHO
  178. [18:55:10] <reschke> so...
  179. [18:55:14] <tantek> reschke - I think that's true too - the key is to document a very good processing model
  180. [18:55:21] <tantek> I tried to do that starting with XMDP
  181. [18:55:30] <reschke> so
  182. [18:55:30] <tantek> but clearly there is an expectation of more details with HTML5
  183. [18:55:39] <reschke> - we don't want to touch HTML5 core
  184. [18:55:45] <manu-home> tantek: the question of validation will come up - is @profile everywhere valid for HTML5 UAs?
  185. [18:55:48] <reschke> - we want to publish in the HTML WG
  186. [18:55:51] <manu-home> I say that it is valid.
  187. [18:55:57] <reschke> - but we need some more time?
  188. [18:56:08] <tantek> or rather, we want to agree that dropping "profile" from HTML5 head element makes sense at this time given current usage
  189. [18:56:11] <reschke> it is as valid as Microdata or RDFa
  190. [18:56:13] <manu-home> reschke: yes.
  191. [18:56:20] <reschke> ...or it would be...
  192. [18:56:31] <tantek> manu - regarding validation, ask the same question of microdata or RDFa
  193. [18:56:36] <tantek> or any extension
  194. [18:56:40] <tantek> you should get the same answer
  195. [18:56:46] <reschke> right
  196. [18:56:50] <manu-home> tantek: yes, exactly my point - the answer is "we haven't figured that out yet"
  197. [18:57:04] <tantek> manu - and that's ok for a spec in progress
  198. [18:57:09] * manu-home nods.
  199. [18:57:22] <tantek> just express a desire that validation works similarly for such extensions
  200. [18:57:31] <reschke> I'm still not 100% happy about this (validation) in conjuction with the text/html re-reg, but that's a different battle to fight (different issue and change proposals)
  201. [18:57:33] <manu-home> it would put more pressure on the HTML WG to figure it out.
  202. [18:57:37] <tantek> because that seems to make sense, place them on similar footing, similar understanding for authors etc.
  203. [18:57:47] <reschke> absolutely
  204. [18:57:49] <manu-home> right
  205. [18:58:00] <manu-home> We've been trying to get that answer out of HTML WG and WHAT WG for a while now.
  206. [18:58:01] <tantek> I'm ok with the folks who care about validation driving the need to figure out exactly how validating extensions works
  207. [18:58:13] <manu-home> that would be Henri
  208. [18:58:15] <tantek> I think they'll have to figure out a way that is fairly equivalent for all extensions
  209. [18:58:21] <manu-home> who has written validators for both RDFa and Microdata.
  210. [18:58:22] <reschke> and Mike Smith, actually
  211. [18:58:34] <reschke> oh, did he?
  212. [18:58:45] <manu-home> I believe he did... last I checked.
  213. [18:58:56] <manu-home> RDFa (without CURIE support) was definitely in there
  214. [18:58:59] <reschke> but they aren't hooked to validator.nu right now, as far as I know
  215. [18:59:00] <manu-home> and it was experimental.
  216. [18:59:27] * manu-home sighs - he removed the RDFa one.
  217. [18:59:42] <manu-home> ok
  218. [18:59:50] <manu-home> so separate spec
  219. [18:59:58] <manu-home> Tantek, do you have text that we could use?
  220. [19:00:08] <manu-home> in the separate spec.
  221. [19:00:15] <reschke> so do we want to include the link relation? It wouldn't be needed for HTML then, but might be useful in other places?
  222. [19:00:27] <manu-home> I say keep it out for now.
  223. [19:00:42] <manu-home> unless we have a clear use case for it.
  224. [19:00:49] <tantek> right, I trust them to be critical but do the right thing from a technical perspective, which I think is correct.
  225. [19:00:49] <tantek> manu - what do you think should be the scope of this document?
  226. [19:00:51] <reschke> might be a good candidate to test the IANA registry when it's there
  227. [19:00:58] <tantek> should we simply propose profile as an extension to HTML5
  228. [19:00:59] <reschke> but can of course be defined separately
  229. [19:01:07] <tantek> or also include an informative errata for HTML 4.01?
  230. [19:01:13] <reschke> 1) yes
  231. [19:01:27] <reschke> 2) I think it would be good to have that erratum published somehwere
  232. [19:01:29] <tantek> or also include an informative extension for HTML4.01 (similar to how ARIA extends HTML4/XHTML)
  233. [19:01:41] <manu-home> tantek: scope should be simple - proposal profile as extension to HTML5, propose that @profile be allowed everywhere.
  234. [19:01:42] <reschke> ...but it appears the W3C isn't looking towards opening that can of worms
  235. [19:01:57] <tantek> In other words, I don't see a need to tie "profile on any element" to requiring HTML5
  236. [19:02:00] <tantek> does that make sense?
  237. [19:02:07] <reschke> oh ARIA does? Then we might want to do that as well
  238. [19:02:21] <manu-home> hrm.
  239. [19:02:28] <reschke> that makes a lot of sense; it would be great to have this in HTML4
  240. [19:02:33] <tantek> I would agree with keep the link relation *separate*
  241. [19:02:53] <tantek> i'd like to continue to evolve rel-profile here: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-profile
  242. [19:02:53] <reschke> does it add complexity? (doing it for all of HTML)?
  243. [19:03:02] <reschke> i'm fine with that
  244. [19:03:13] <manu-home> I'm concerned about addressing too many things with this draft.
  245. [19:03:24] <reschke> ok, so let's park the link relation for now
  246. [19:03:28] <manu-home> I'm definitely concerned about saying anything about "fixing HTML4"
  247. [19:03:31] <tantek> reschke - I don't think it adds complexity
  248. [19:03:42] <tantek> manu - hence why I suggested *informative* errata
  249. [19:03:50] <tantek> for HTML 4.01
  250. [19:04:12] <reschke> so informative erratum for HTML 4.01 for head/@profile
  251. [19:04:17] <manu-home> if it's informative, Maciej will question why it's in the spec at all... since it seems to be a conformance requirement for HTML4.01
  252. [19:04:17] <tantek> thus if someone ever decides to do a HTML 4.02 or HTML 4.1 that *just* fixes HTML 4.01 (no new features) then they could incorporate it
  253. [19:04:29] <reschke> and an extension for HTML in general for @profile everywhere?
  254. [19:04:47] <tantek> reschke - see how ARIA does this
  255. [19:04:50] <manu-home> tantek: yes, I do see the positive benefit of it.
  256. [19:04:53] <reschke> ok
  257. [19:05:16] <reschke> I think there's no problem keeping the erratum (it's ready anywhere); in the worst case we can still drop it.
  258. [19:05:23] <tantek> the point is that something doesn't have to be normative right away in order to eventually have a potential positive impact
  259. [19:05:35] <manu-home> true
  260. [19:05:41] <tantek> the erratum that Manu wrote up is pretty good already
  261. [19:05:46] <reschke> maybe we should just post it as attachment on www-archive so it get's a stable URL for now...=
  262. [19:05:48] <reschke> ?
  263. [19:05:50] <tantek> I would only suggest/make editorial changes
  264. [19:05:50] <manu-home> Ok, so we're talking about this spec having two things: @profile everywhere proposal, HTML 4.01 Erratum.
  265. [19:06:07] <tantek> informative HTML 4.01 erratum
  266. [19:06:16] <tantek> errata - sorry - since they are plural :)
  267. [19:06:18] <manu-home> right
  268. [19:06:30] <reschke> something that we can point people to when they complain about the HTML4 spec
  269. [19:06:37] <tantek> and possibly a third, informative use of profile in HTML4, similar to use of ARIA in HTML4/XHTMl1
  270. [19:06:45] <tantek> reschke - right
  271. [19:06:56] <reschke> it's also a useful base for talking about @profile in HTML x with x > 4.01
  272. [19:07:13] <tantek> and if the people that are concerned about HTML4 want to take the informative errata and push them to be normative - that can be done later and indepenently
  273. [19:07:25] <reschke> ok then
  274. [19:07:33] <manu-home> ok
  275. [19:07:43] <reschke> proposal: I'll put together a mail, and let you review it, then send it to the mailing list
  276. [19:07:54] <reschke> unless somebody volunteers
  277. [19:08:03] <tantek> I think we can start drafting on microformat.org/wiki as soon as time permits us
  278. [19:08:03] <reschke> we can also hop over to etherpad and do it together.
  279. [19:08:04] <manu-home> that sounds good, you get the e-mail ready
  280. [19:08:10] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki that is
  281. [19:08:18] <manu-home> proposal: I can edit/merge text for the proposal and put it in a form that HTML WG will accept.
  282. [19:08:38] <tantek> I can do a rough draft with combining of XMDP and Manu's HTML 4.01 errata
  283. [19:08:44] <tantek> if there is no objection
  284. [19:08:45] <manu-home> tantek: I'll need suggestions, edits, text from you
  285. [19:08:47] <manu-home> great
  286. [19:08:50] <manu-home> no, that sounds perfect.
  287. [19:09:01] <manu-home> order of operations:
  288. [19:09:03] <tantek> manu - would you be ok with us developing/iterating this draft on the microformats wiki?
  289. [19:09:11] <manu-home> that would be fine
  290. [19:09:20] <manu-home> you're a part of HTML WG, Tantek?
  291. [19:09:21] <tantek> from which we can ship snapshots to HTMLWG as needed?
  292. [19:09:24] <tantek> manu, yes
  293. [19:09:31] <manu-home> ok, good, no IPR issues then.
  294. [19:09:50] <manu-home> tantek: sounds like a plan.
  295. [19:09:52] <tantek> not only that, but just as WHATWG has a better copyright license that W3C, so does microformats.org
  296. [19:10:05] * manu-home nods.
  297. [19:10:08] <tantek> WHATWG uses MIT license, microformats.org uses CC public domain + CC0
  298. [19:10:17] <tantek> this is a good thing
  299. [19:10:33] <tantek> I think many folks will express sympathy with this style of spec development
  300. [19:10:35] <manu-home> 1) Julian drafts e-mail to HTML WG, Manu and Tantek review, give feedback. Julian sends @profile e-mail to HTML WG.
  301. [19:10:46] <manu-home> 2) Tantek and Manu edit uF wiki with spec text.
  302. [19:11:03] <manu-home> 3) Manu puts a snapshot of spec text on uF wiki into a format that HTML WG will be okay with.
  303. [19:11:10] <mwunsch> Question about Vcards, is there a vCard validator? I've exported a vcard from my parser, and it looks totally correct, but apple says 'No importable cards found'
  304. [19:11:21] <tantek> ok, so just so I can start a stub, would /wiki/html5-profile be ok? or alternative short name suggestions?
  305. [19:11:33] <manu-home> tantek: that works for me.
  306. [19:11:33] <reschke> html-profile?
  307. [19:11:35] <reschke> no 5?
  308. [19:11:38] <tantek> mwunsch - yeah, vCard validation is a problem
  309. [19:11:54] <tantek> reschke - I suggest the 5 just to show the focus
  310. [19:11:55] <manu-home> hrm, no 5 would be good if we intend this to apply to HTML4.01 as well.
  311. [19:12:04] * manu-home smiles
  312. [19:12:08] <tantek> the normative bits apply to 5
  313. [19:12:15] <mwunsch> tantek -- It's odd: Apple recognizes this as a vCard, I am able to view it as a vCard in Quick Look; but I am unable to import it into my address book
  314. [19:12:26] <reschke> manu: http://etherpad.com/cUatuLNdYH
  315. [19:12:26] <tantek> it's fine to have the informative errata in the same document that applies to previous versions of HTML and XHTML
  316. [19:13:26] <tantek> mwunsch - that is very odd - have you tried converting the same hCard using H2VX and looked at the vCard it produces?
  317. [19:13:29] <tantek> do a file comparison?
  318. [19:13:40] <mwunsch> let me try that
  319. [19:13:51] <manu-home> ok, I have to run - anything else before I leave?
  320. [19:15:12] <tantek> manu - ok I'll start drafting it. unless there is objection, I'll put you down as co-author and myself as editor for now.
  321. [19:17:36] * mwunsch_ (~mwunsch@38.105.146.82) has joined #microformats
  322. [19:18:43] <reschke> do we want to give an estimated ETA for a first draft?
  323. [19:18:52] * mwunsch (~mwunsch@38.105.146.82) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  324. [19:18:52] * mwunsch_ is now known as mwunsch
  325. [19:23:07] <reschke> man, I love etherpad. Start it, write a sentence, and let other people do the rest.
  326. [19:23:22] * manu-home snickers.
  327. [19:23:32] <manu-home> that was a trap, wasn't it.
  328. [19:23:37] <reschke> always
  329. [19:23:55] <reschke> but then it's evening over here, and I already had my first beer.
  330. [19:24:02] <reschke> Should I send this?
  331. [19:24:07] <manu-home> looks good to me
  332. [19:24:09] <manu-home> tantek?
  333. [19:25:08] <reschke> ...pasted into email to the two of you, in case Tantek is away
  334. [19:25:32] <reschke> he's probably already drafting
  335. [19:27:55] * reschke goes back to RFC editing for now
  336. [19:28:31] * manu-home waves.
  337. [19:28:43] * manu-home (~chatzilla@pool-74-107-169-117.ronkva.east.verizon.net) has left #microformats
  338. [19:29:06] * reschke will be around a bit longer in case Tantek comes back
  339. [19:32:10] <tantek> here
  340. [19:32:53] <tantek> just doing some wiki editing
  341. [19:41:40] * andersonorui (~andersono@c951a9bf.virtua.com.br) Quit (Quit: Leaving...)
  342. [19:47:13] * KevinMarks (~KevinMark@157.22.22.46) has joined #microformats
  343. [19:49:33] <tantek> reschke - first draft (not complete) but posted: http://microformats.org/wiki/html5-profile
  344. [20:00:54] * mkaply (~chatzilla@cpe-66-68-157-58.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  345. [20:01:16] <reschke> superb
  346. [20:01:27] <reschke> maybe we should put that into the email as well?
  347. [20:02:57] <tantek> nah - I think it's too incomplete to be worthy of the HTMLWG's attention at this time
  348. [20:03:02] <tantek> the curious folks will find it
  349. [20:03:10] <tantek> I'm editing the etherpad with a few more details
  350. [20:04:07] <reschke> right
  351. [20:05:13] <tantek> do we need to promise when a FPWD will be ready?
  352. [20:06:01] <reschke> i think we should give an *estimate* for something that could be ready for FPWD.
  353. [20:06:10] * manu-home (~chatzilla@pool-74-107-169-117.ronkva.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  354. [20:06:11] <tantek> how about we just say that a draft xn progress on the microformats wiki for those who are curious.
  355. [20:06:16] <reschke> my experience is that it usually takes at least as long as we plan for.
  356. [20:06:31] <manu-home> hey guys
  357. [20:06:33] <tantek> and say that we don't have an estimate for when a FPWD will be ready.
  358. [20:06:35] <reschke> three weeks for an initial proposal should be ok
  359. [20:06:38] <tantek> hey manu
  360. [20:06:49] * memload_ (~jamesjeff@5e0720a1.bb.sky.com) has joined #microformats
  361. [20:07:00] <tantek> reschke - SXSW is in 3 weeks and I will be unable to commit to that
  362. [20:07:11] <manu-home> The only concern I have is giving people a reason to question the work.
  363. [20:07:24] <manu-home> I'll commit to 3 weeks from now.
  364. [20:07:39] <reschke> if it's five week i'll be ok as well
  365. [20:07:41] <tantek> I'd rather say that we don't have a specific date for when a FPWD will be ready, but if there are f3 that are interested in seeing something sooner please speak up.
  366. [20:07:45] <manu-home> if all it entails is copying text verbatim from uF wiki to HTML WG spec.
  367. [20:07:59] <reschke> As long as it's clear that the three of use commit ourselves to do this.
  368. [20:08:01] <manu-home> tantek: I'm fine with that as well.
  369. [20:08:19] <tantek> just saying that we're actively working on it in the open I think is sufficient
  370. [20:08:27] <tantek> that way people that care can read updates as they wish
  371. [20:08:31] * memload__ (~jamesjeff@5ac8f055.bb.sky.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  372. [20:08:32] <tantek> without waiting for a FPWD
  373. [20:08:42] <tantek> and that also removes the need to commit to a particular date
  374. [20:08:56] <tantek> I'd rather push for a FPWD when we feel the contents are worthy, than a specific date.
  375. [20:08:57] <reschke> yes, and we want to encourage (constructive) discussion anyway
  376. [20:09:07] <tantek> and transparent development
  377. [20:09:28] <reschke> I'm ok with both.
  378. [20:09:49] <manu-home> ditto
  379. [20:10:29] <manu-home> I think we should give /some/ idea of how long we think this is going to take, though.
  380. [20:10:34] <manu-home> we don't want to leave it open ended.
  381. [20:10:48] <manu-home> especially since we're asking for an extension.
  382. [20:10:55] <tantek> we're not asking for an extension
  383. [20:11:04] <reschke> something in between
  384. [20:11:07] <reschke> :-)
  385. [20:11:17] <tantek> we should be very clear we are ok with amicably closing the issue
  386. [20:11:24] <tantek> that shows good faith up front
  387. [20:11:25] <reschke> Can we say "by the end of March" and be done with that?
  388. [20:11:41] * emrojo (~emrojo@2001:720:410:100f:212:3fff:fe22:bbaf) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
  389. [20:11:51] <tantek> we can say we hope to have a FPWD by the end of March, but will only propose it if we think the contents are worthy of it by then.
  390. [20:11:53] <manu-home> we should make sure that by amicably closing the issue that we don't shut the door on @profile in any spec published via HTML WG first
  391. [20:12:10] <tantek> we don't because this is new information
  392. [20:12:16] <tantek> profile attribute on all elements is new information
  393. [20:12:24] <reschke> manu: yes, that's why we're sending this proposal in the context of ISSE-55.
  394. [20:12:26] <tantek> I'm really not worried about door closings like that
  395. [20:12:29] <manu-home> We should make sure that the chairs agree with us.
  396. [20:12:39] <tantek> why? I think the chairs are reasonable
  397. [20:12:47] <reschke> I think by sending feedback in time we're ok.
  398. [20:12:47] <tantek> I don't think we need to worry about that frankly
  399. [20:13:09] <tantek> we shouldn't ask anyone to agree with us in advance for a proposal etc.
  400. [20:13:13] <tantek> I don't think that's reasonable
  401. [20:13:33] <manu-home> hrm, I think there is some miscommunication going on here.
  402. [20:13:43] <reschke> no, we don't ask for agreement; we just announce our plan.
  403. [20:13:52] <manu-home> I think that we should very clearly state our plan.
  404. [20:13:55] <manu-home> right.
  405. [20:13:58] <tantek> better to just say something like, we consider the generalization of the profile attribute to all elements to be new information and outside the scope of this current issue.
  406. [20:14:09] <manu-home> I'd be fine with that.
  407. [20:14:20] <manu-home> that would give anyone the opportunity to respond if they don't think that is the case.
  408. [20:14:25] <tantek> that way, we're clear what we mean, and transparent with future plans
  409. [20:14:30] <tantek> right
  410. [20:14:30] * manu-home nods.
  411. [20:14:54] <tantek> much better to express expectation of good faith of other participants rather than attempt to bind people into agreeing IMHO
  412. [20:15:15] <manu-home> we are in violent agreement.
  413. [20:15:52] <tantek> I think in general the chairs tend to look more favorably upon folks who help encourage more civil discussions/culture/community in the working group.
  414. [20:16:03] <tantek> Plus I think it helps set a good example.
  415. [20:16:09] <manu-home> yup
  416. [20:16:24] <manu-home> so, that clause should be added to the e-mail Julian.
  417. [20:16:25] <reschke> so one more edit to the mail?
  418. [20:17:21] <tantek> I've been editing the etherpad directly - can we update there?
  419. [20:17:48] <reschke> sure, that was the point
  420. [20:18:19] <tantek> manu - feel free to add scope and FPWD expectations language per the above
  421. [20:27:46] * manu-home (~chatzilla@pool-74-107-169-117.ronkva.east.verizon.net) has left #microformats
  422. [20:29:28] <mwunsch> tantek: The problem was, i was saving my output as .vcard, not .vcf
  423. [20:29:37] <mwunsch> Not sure...why that was causing an issue though
  424. [20:29:49] <mwunsch> But HMachine can successfully convert hcards to vcards
  425. [20:29:51] <mwunsch> :-)
  426. [20:29:54] <mwunsch> pushing to github now
  427. [20:30:38] <tantek> woohoo!
  428. [20:30:41] <tantek> thanks mwunsch
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  432. [20:33:46] <tantek> thanks manu and reschke - I think the html5-profile proposal is a good idea for many reasons
  433. [20:33:59] <tantek> a few more minor updates - but definitely in need of more work:
  434. [20:34:05] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/html5-profile
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