IRC Log for #microformats on 2010-02-19
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [14:46:38] <mwunsch>
Can anybody point me to some good examples of vCards?
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- [14:46:43] <mwunsch>
Want to make sure i'm structuring mine properly
- [15:02:11] <csarven>
mwunsch There are plenty in the wiki hcard-examples
- [15:02:30] <csarven>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild
- [15:09:22] <mwunsch>
csarven: thanks
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- [18:35:02] <manu-home>
hey tantek: trying to get Julian to join...
- [18:35:14] <tantek>
hey manu
- [18:38:32] <tantek>
ok I have an unrelated question, how is http://to./ a valid URL, and what is the TLD?
- [18:38:53] <manu-home>
While we wait, here's the HTML WG issue that is related to @profile in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
- [18:39:32] <manu-home>
looks like .to is the TLD?
- [18:39:36] * reschke (~chatzilla@p508FC732.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:39:53] <manu-home>
Hi Julian :)
- [18:40:08] <reschke>
good evening :-)
- [18:40:14] * manu-home has never heard of .to TLD.
- [18:40:25] <reschke>
Togo?
- [18:40:25] * manu-home would like to register http://go.to/
- [18:40:50] <reschke>
appears you're too late
- [18:40:55] <reschke>
ok then
- [18:41:03] <manu-home>
Tonga
- [18:41:10] <reschke>
O I c
- [18:41:20] <manu-home>
Tonga TLD == .to, but still no idea why http://to./ works
- [18:41:26] <manu-home>
anyway, @Profile.
- [18:41:43] <manu-home>
Julian, we're discussing ISSUE-55, right?
- [18:41:50] <reschke>
Tantek's proposal has the nice property of not requiring the support of a certain set of people.
- [18:41:53] <manu-home>
in the HTML WG tracker?
- [18:42:11] <manu-home>
I think RDFa community would support @profile everywhere.
- [18:42:23] <reschke>
yes, that's the issue
- [18:42:37] <manu-home>
we may process it differently, but from what I understand, that would be fine.
- [18:42:49] <reschke>
so if we made this a stand-alone spec
- [18:43:09] <reschke>
we'd also allow it everywhere - so we would go beyond what HTML4 said
- [18:43:17] <reschke>
right?
- [18:43:22] <tantek>
reschke - I don't really see any political aspects as a strength or weakness - I'd rather focus on the technical and documentation merits.
- [18:43:57] <manu-home>
tantek - here's the previous @profile proposal that we worked on: http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/html5-epb.html
- [18:44:01] <reschke>
sure, but I've had enough of politics over the last seven days, so less controversy sounds good to me
- [18:44:20] <manu-home>
It was just an attempt at a proposal... but that is the form we're thinking about, right?
- [18:44:22] <tantek>
I think the idea is worthy on its technical and architectural merit
- [18:44:30] * manu-home agrees.
- [18:44:36] * reschke too
- [18:44:50] <tantek>
manu - haven't had time to review your draft. I was envisioning something simple starting from what I wrote up for XMDP.
- [18:44:50] <reschke>
If it wasn't we wouldn't be discussing it
- [18:44:59] <tantek>
and then extending that to every element
- [18:45:02] <manu-home>
but HTML WG has a difficult history... so we need to at least be aware of that going forward.
- [18:45:16] <reschke>
So Manu's "old" document has @profile for <head>, link/@rel=profile, and "my" HTML 4.01 erratum
- [18:45:26] <tantek>
manu - I'd rather proceed forward with assumption of good faith.
- [18:45:28] <reschke>
would it make sense to use that as a staring point?
- [18:45:42] <reschke>
...starting...
- [18:45:56] <manu-home>
tantek: yes, we're proceeding with assumption of good faith.
- [18:46:00] <reschke>
yep
- [18:46:12] <tantek>
I'd rather start with XMDP and extend it to all elements
- [18:46:18] <reschke>
which brinngs us to the question - *where* do we want to do that
- [18:46:23] <manu-home>
here's what I'm concerned about: if we miss the deadline for @profile response.
- [18:46:28] <manu-home>
that takes @profile off of the table
- [18:46:29] <tantek>
It's fairly minimal and neutral
- [18:46:43] <manu-home>
not only for HTML spec, but for any future separate spec, IIRC.
- [18:46:47] <reschke>
I think we need to be able to communicate a plan
- [18:46:49] <tantek>
manu - I disagree - it takes @profile in the core HTML5 spec off the table
- [18:46:54] <tantek>
which I think is fine
- [18:47:21] <manu-home>
Maciej just argued that just because something is split apart, or put together in the HTML5 spec, it doesn't change the scope of what the issues apply to.
- [18:47:26] <reschke>
Manu - RDFa-in-XHTML doesn't use @profile, right?
- [18:47:38] <manu-home>
RDFa in XHTML /does/ use @profile.
- [18:47:46] <manu-home>
but it's a SHOULD, not a MUST.
- [18:47:52] <reschke>
but doesn't require - right
- [18:48:08] <tantek>
I think the problem is with abstract extensibility being in the core HTML5 spec
- [18:48:18] <reschke>
ok, so from that point of view it would be a spec that RDFa-in-HTML would want to cite, right?
- [18:48:28] <manu-home>
I agree with the sentiment and want that to be the way it is, Tantek - but we just had something happen in HTML WG that demonstrates that the chairs may not agree with us.
- [18:48:33] <tantek>
perhaps - not clear that dependency is necessary
- [18:48:55] <tantek>
manu - I'm confident that reasonable proposals made in good faith will be listened to
- [18:49:06] <tantek>
I'd really like to minimize any rhetoric otherwise
- [18:49:22] <manu-home>
ok
- [18:49:34] <reschke>
which makes Tantek our spokesman :-)
- [18:49:42] <manu-home>
I'd be fine with that.
- [18:49:50] <reschke>
so...
- [18:49:53] <tantek>
similarly, I'm also fine with posting the profile on any element proposal as a draft on microformats.org
- [18:49:59] <tantek>
and contributing it to HTML WG
- [18:50:05] <manu-home>
or you Julian - I'm slammed at the moment, so shouldn't be in the critical path for this.
- [18:50:14] <reschke>
are we going to say: "yes we're doing a change proposal", but it involves creating a separate spec?
- [18:50:18] <tantek>
since that's a pattern that is simi?p"to specs being posted on WHATWG and being contributed to HTMLWG
- [18:50:27] <tantek>
this isn't a change proposal though
- [18:50:30] <tantek>
that's the point
- [18:50:32] <tantek>
this is a separate spec
- [18:50:40] <reschke>
understood
- [18:50:49] <reschke>
but I think Manu is right...
- [18:50:52] * manu-home is getting dejavu.
- [18:51:01] <tantek>
I actually like the idea of keeping HTML5 more minimal
- [18:51:09] <reschke>
...in that letting the date slip away may weaken the position for adding it as a separate spec.
- [18:51:11] * manu-home agrees.
- [18:51:17] <reschke>
but then
- [18:51:28] <reschke>
this would be a spec with 3 independant supporters
- [18:51:38] <manu-home>
also true.
- [18:51:40] <reschke>
so Sam's rule should apply
- [18:51:48] <reschke>
and we're *certainly* in scope
- [18:52:07] <reschke>
as we're just saving/extending something that is in HTML4 and in use
- [18:52:18] <reschke>
so separate spec it is?
- [18:52:33] <manu-home>
yes
- [18:52:35] <manu-home>
Julian - we're good if we just ask for an extension and say that the three of us are working on a proposal.
- [18:52:46] <reschke>
sure
- [18:52:48] <manu-home>
just to cover our bases.
- [18:52:49] <reschke>
I can send email for that
- [18:52:53] <manu-home>
great, thx.
- [18:53:02] <tantek>
manu, I generally agree with section 3 HTML 4.01 Errata in your draft, as that seems compatible with XMDP
- [18:53:03] <reschke>
do we want to talk about the venue where to write the spec?
- [18:53:08] <tantek>
and the level of detail is appreciated
- [18:53:11] <reschke>
I personally don't care.
- [18:53:15] <tantek>
I'm not sure about the first part though
- [18:53:29] <reschke>
I'd prefer not to have to drive it, but would certainly contribute stuff and moral support
- [18:53:31] <manu-home>
I'm not tied to the first part in any way.
- [18:53:36] <tantek>
ok
- [18:53:56] <manu-home>
I didn't try @profile everywhere because there didn't seem to be support for it in HTML WG.
- [18:54:08] <manu-home>
and we were going from no @profile, to @profile back in head.
- [18:54:16] <tantek>
I've been transitioning and updating/errating XMDP to the microformats wiki overtime, and this is a good reason to generalize that and expand it to permit more flexible processing
- [18:54:18] <manu-home>
going from no @profile to @profile everywhere might have freaked people out.
- [18:54:29] <reschke>
it was discussed shortly and I think there was some sympathy for making it more useful if it reappears
- [18:54:50] <reschke>
so it might be exactly the opposite
- [18:54:52] <tantek>
manu - I agree that profile everywhere might "freak some people out" but that's only in the core spec IMHO
- [18:55:10] <reschke>
so...
- [18:55:14] <tantek>
reschke - I think that's true too - the key is to document a very good processing model
- [18:55:21] <tantek>
I tried to do that starting with XMDP
- [18:55:30] <reschke>
so
- [18:55:30] <tantek>
but clearly there is an expectation of more details with HTML5
- [18:55:39] <reschke>
- we don't want to touch HTML5 core
- [18:55:45] <manu-home>
tantek: the question of validation will come up - is @profile everywhere valid for HTML5 UAs?
- [18:55:48] <reschke>
- we want to publish in the HTML WG
- [18:55:51] <manu-home>
I say that it is valid.
- [18:55:57] <reschke>
- but we need some more time?
- [18:56:08] <tantek>
or rather, we want to agree that dropping "profile" from HTML5 head element makes sense at this time given current usage
- [18:56:11] <reschke>
it is as valid as Microdata or RDFa
- [18:56:13] <manu-home>
reschke: yes.
- [18:56:20] <reschke>
...or it would be...
- [18:56:31] <tantek>
manu - regarding validation, ask the same question of microdata or RDFa
- [18:56:36] <tantek>
or any extension
- [18:56:40] <tantek>
you should get the same answer
- [18:56:46] <reschke>
right
- [18:56:50] <manu-home>
tantek: yes, exactly my point - the answer is "we haven't figured that out yet"
- [18:57:04] <tantek>
manu - and that's ok for a spec in progress
- [18:57:09] * manu-home nods.
- [18:57:22] <tantek>
just express a desire that validation works similarly for such extensions
- [18:57:31] <reschke>
I'm still not 100% happy about this (validation) in conjuction with the text/html re-reg, but that's a different battle to fight (different issue and change proposals)
- [18:57:33] <manu-home>
it would put more pressure on the HTML WG to figure it out.
- [18:57:37] <tantek>
because that seems to make sense, place them on similar footing, similar understanding for authors etc.
- [18:57:47] <reschke>
absolutely
- [18:57:49] <manu-home>
right
- [18:58:00] <manu-home>
We've been trying to get that answer out of HTML WG and WHAT WG for a while now.
- [18:58:01] <tantek>
I'm ok with the folks who care about validation driving the need to figure out exactly how validating extensions works
- [18:58:13] <manu-home>
that would be Henri
- [18:58:15] <tantek>
I think they'll have to figure out a way that is fairly equivalent for all extensions
- [18:58:21] <manu-home>
who has written validators for both RDFa and Microdata.
- [18:58:22] <reschke>
and Mike Smith, actually
- [18:58:34] <reschke>
oh, did he?
- [18:58:45] <manu-home>
I believe he did... last I checked.
- [18:58:56] <manu-home>
RDFa (without CURIE support) was definitely in there
- [18:58:59] <reschke>
but they aren't hooked to validator.nu right now, as far as I know
- [18:59:00] <manu-home>
and it was experimental.
- [18:59:27] * manu-home sighs - he removed the RDFa one.
- [18:59:42] <manu-home>
ok
- [18:59:50] <manu-home>
so separate spec
- [18:59:58] <manu-home>
Tantek, do you have text that we could use?
- [19:00:08] <manu-home>
in the separate spec.
- [19:00:15] <reschke>
so do we want to include the link relation? It wouldn't be needed for HTML then, but might be useful in other places?
- [19:00:27] <manu-home>
I say keep it out for now.
- [19:00:42] <manu-home>
unless we have a clear use case for it.
- [19:00:49] <tantek>
right, I trust them to be critical but do the right thing from a technical perspective, which I think is correct.
- [19:00:49] <tantek>
manu - what do you think should be the scope of this document?
- [19:00:51] <reschke>
might be a good candidate to test the IANA registry when it's there
- [19:00:58] <tantek>
should we simply propose profile as an extension to HTML5
- [19:00:59] <reschke>
but can of course be defined separately
- [19:01:07] <tantek>
or also include an informative errata for HTML 4.01?
- [19:01:13] <reschke>
1) yes
- [19:01:27] <reschke>
2) I think it would be good to have that erratum published somehwere
- [19:01:29] <tantek>
or also include an informative extension for HTML4.01 (similar to how ARIA extends HTML4/XHTML)
- [19:01:41] <manu-home>
tantek: scope should be simple - proposal profile as extension to HTML5, propose that @profile be allowed everywhere.
- [19:01:42] <reschke>
...but it appears the W3C isn't looking towards opening that can of worms
- [19:01:57] <tantek>
In other words, I don't see a need to tie "profile on any element" to requiring HTML5
- [19:02:00] <tantek>
does that make sense?
- [19:02:07] <reschke>
oh ARIA does? Then we might want to do that as well
- [19:02:21] <manu-home>
hrm.
- [19:02:28] <reschke>
that makes a lot of sense; it would be great to have this in HTML4
- [19:02:33] <tantek>
I would agree with keep the link relation *separate*
- [19:02:53] <tantek>
i'd like to continue to evolve rel-profile here: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-profile
- [19:02:53] <reschke>
does it add complexity? (doing it for all of HTML)?
- [19:03:02] <reschke>
i'm fine with that
- [19:03:13] <manu-home>
I'm concerned about addressing too many things with this draft.
- [19:03:24] <reschke>
ok, so let's park the link relation for now
- [19:03:28] <manu-home>
I'm definitely concerned about saying anything about "fixing HTML4"
- [19:03:31] <tantek>
reschke - I don't think it adds complexity
- [19:03:42] <tantek>
manu - hence why I suggested *informative* errata
- [19:03:50] <tantek>
for HTML 4.01
- [19:04:12] <reschke>
so informative erratum for HTML 4.01 for head/@profile
- [19:04:17] <manu-home>
if it's informative, Maciej will question why it's in the spec at all... since it seems to be a conformance requirement for HTML4.01
- [19:04:17] <tantek>
thus if someone ever decides to do a HTML 4.02 or HTML 4.1 that *just* fixes HTML 4.01 (no new features) then they could incorporate it
- [19:04:29] <reschke>
and an extension for HTML in general for @profile everywhere?
- [19:04:47] <tantek>
reschke - see how ARIA does this
- [19:04:50] <manu-home>
tantek: yes, I do see the positive benefit of it.
- [19:04:53] <reschke>
ok
- [19:05:16] <reschke>
I think there's no problem keeping the erratum (it's ready anywhere); in the worst case we can still drop it.
- [19:05:23] <tantek>
the point is that something doesn't have to be normative right away in order to eventually have a potential positive impact
- [19:05:35] <manu-home>
true
- [19:05:41] <tantek>
the erratum that Manu wrote up is pretty good already
- [19:05:46] <reschke>
maybe we should just post it as attachment on www-archive so it get's a stable URL for now...=
- [19:05:48] <reschke>
?
- [19:05:50] <tantek>
I would only suggest/make editorial changes
- [19:05:50] <manu-home>
Ok, so we're talking about this spec having two things: @profile everywhere proposal, HTML 4.01 Erratum.
- [19:06:07] <tantek>
informative HTML 4.01 erratum
- [19:06:16] <tantek>
errata - sorry - since they are plural :)
- [19:06:18] <manu-home>
right
- [19:06:30] <reschke>
something that we can point people to when they complain about the HTML4 spec
- [19:06:37] <tantek>
and possibly a third, informative use of profile in HTML4, similar to use of ARIA in HTML4/XHTMl1
- [19:06:45] <tantek>
reschke - right
- [19:06:56] <reschke>
it's also a useful base for talking about @profile in HTML x with x > 4.01
- [19:07:13] <tantek>
and if the people that are concerned about HTML4 want to take the informative errata and push them to be normative - that can be done later and indepenently
- [19:07:25] <reschke>
ok then
- [19:07:33] <manu-home>
ok
- [19:07:43] <reschke>
proposal: I'll put together a mail, and let you review it, then send it to the mailing list
- [19:07:54] <reschke>
unless somebody volunteers
- [19:08:03] <tantek>
I think we can start drafting on microformat.org/wiki as soon as time permits us
- [19:08:03] <reschke>
we can also hop over to etherpad and do it together.
- [19:08:04] <manu-home>
that sounds good, you get the e-mail ready
- [19:08:10] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki that is
- [19:08:18] <manu-home>
proposal: I can edit/merge text for the proposal and put it in a form that HTML WG will accept.
- [19:08:38] <tantek>
I can do a rough draft with combining of XMDP and Manu's HTML 4.01 errata
- [19:08:44] <tantek>
if there is no objection
- [19:08:45] <manu-home>
tantek: I'll need suggestions, edits, text from you
- [19:08:47] <manu-home>
great
- [19:08:50] <manu-home>
no, that sounds perfect.
- [19:09:01] <manu-home>
order of operations:
- [19:09:03] <tantek>
manu - would you be ok with us developing/iterating this draft on the microformats wiki?
- [19:09:11] <manu-home>
that would be fine
- [19:09:20] <manu-home>
you're a part of HTML WG, Tantek?
- [19:09:21] <tantek>
from which we can ship snapshots to HTMLWG as needed?
- [19:09:24] <tantek>
manu, yes
- [19:09:31] <manu-home>
ok, good, no IPR issues then.
- [19:09:50] <manu-home>
tantek: sounds like a plan.
- [19:09:52] <tantek>
not only that, but just as WHATWG has a better copyright license that W3C, so does microformats.org
- [19:10:05] * manu-home nods.
- [19:10:08] <tantek>
WHATWG uses MIT license, microformats.org uses CC public domain + CC0
- [19:10:17] <tantek>
this is a good thing
- [19:10:33] <tantek>
I think many folks will express sympathy with this style of spec development
- [19:10:35] <manu-home>
1) Julian drafts e-mail to HTML WG, Manu and Tantek review, give feedback. Julian sends @profile e-mail to HTML WG.
- [19:10:46] <manu-home>
2) Tantek and Manu edit uF wiki with spec text.
- [19:11:03] <manu-home>
3) Manu puts a snapshot of spec text on uF wiki into a format that HTML WG will be okay with.
- [19:11:10] <mwunsch>
Question about Vcards, is there a vCard validator? I've exported a vcard from my parser, and it looks totally correct, but apple says 'No importable cards found'
- [19:11:21] <tantek>
ok, so just so I can start a stub, would /wiki/html5-profile be ok? or alternative short name suggestions?
- [19:11:33] <manu-home>
tantek: that works for me.
- [19:11:33] <reschke>
html-profile?
- [19:11:35] <reschke>
no 5?
- [19:11:38] <tantek>
mwunsch - yeah, vCard validation is a problem
- [19:11:54] <tantek>
reschke - I suggest the 5 just to show the focus
- [19:11:55] <manu-home>
hrm, no 5 would be good if we intend this to apply to HTML4.01 as well.
- [19:12:04] * manu-home smiles
- [19:12:08] <tantek>
the normative bits apply to 5
- [19:12:15] <mwunsch>
tantek -- It's odd: Apple recognizes this as a vCard, I am able to view it as a vCard in Quick Look; but I am unable to import it into my address book
- [19:12:26] <reschke>
manu: http://etherpad.com/cUatuLNdYH
- [19:12:26] <tantek>
it's fine to have the informative errata in the same document that applies to previous versions of HTML and XHTML
- [19:13:26] <tantek>
mwunsch - that is very odd - have you tried converting the same hCard using H2VX and looked at the vCard it produces?
- [19:13:29] <tantek>
do a file comparison?
- [19:13:40] <mwunsch>
let me try that
- [19:13:51] <manu-home>
ok, I have to run - anything else before I leave?
- [19:15:12] <tantek>
manu - ok I'll start drafting it. unless there is objection, I'll put you down as co-author and myself as editor for now.
- [19:17:36] * mwunsch_ (~mwunsch@38.105.146.82) has joined #microformats
- [19:18:43] <reschke>
do we want to give an estimated ETA for a first draft?
- [19:18:52] * mwunsch (~mwunsch@38.105.146.82) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
- [19:18:52] * mwunsch_ is now known as mwunsch
- [19:23:07] <reschke>
man, I love etherpad. Start it, write a sentence, and let other people do the rest.
- [19:23:22] * manu-home snickers.
- [19:23:32] <manu-home>
that was a trap, wasn't it.
- [19:23:37] <reschke>
always
- [19:23:55] <reschke>
but then it's evening over here, and I already had my first beer.
- [19:24:02] <reschke>
Should I send this?
- [19:24:07] <manu-home>
looks good to me
- [19:24:09] <manu-home>
tantek?
- [19:25:08] <reschke>
...pasted into email to the two of you, in case Tantek is away
- [19:25:32] <reschke>
he's probably already drafting
- [19:27:55] * reschke goes back to RFC editing for now
- [19:28:31] * manu-home waves.
- [19:28:43] * manu-home (~chatzilla@pool-74-107-169-117.ronkva.east.verizon.net) has left #microformats
- [19:29:06] * reschke will be around a bit longer in case Tantek comes back
- [19:32:10] <tantek>
here
- [19:32:53] <tantek>
just doing some wiki editing
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- [19:49:33] <tantek>
reschke - first draft (not complete) but posted: http://microformats.org/wiki/html5-profile
- [20:00:54] * mkaply (~chatzilla@cpe-66-68-157-58.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [20:01:16] <reschke>
superb
- [20:01:27] <reschke>
maybe we should put that into the email as well?
- [20:02:57] <tantek>
nah - I think it's too incomplete to be worthy of the HTMLWG's attention at this time
- [20:03:02] <tantek>
the curious folks will find it
- [20:03:10] <tantek>
I'm editing the etherpad with a few more details
- [20:04:07] <reschke>
right
- [20:05:13] <tantek>
do we need to promise when a FPWD will be ready?
- [20:06:01] <reschke>
i think we should give an *estimate* for something that could be ready for FPWD.
- [20:06:10] * manu-home (~chatzilla@pool-74-107-169-117.ronkva.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:06:11] <tantek>
how about we just say that a draft xn progress on the microformats wiki for those who are curious.
- [20:06:16] <reschke>
my experience is that it usually takes at least as long as we plan for.
- [20:06:31] <manu-home>
hey guys
- [20:06:33] <tantek>
and say that we don't have an estimate for when a FPWD will be ready.
- [20:06:35] <reschke>
three weeks for an initial proposal should be ok
- [20:06:38] <tantek>
hey manu
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- [20:07:00] <tantek>
reschke - SXSW is in 3 weeks and I will be unable to commit to that
- [20:07:11] <manu-home>
The only concern I have is giving people a reason to question the work.
- [20:07:24] <manu-home>
I'll commit to 3 weeks from now.
- [20:07:39] <reschke>
if it's five week i'll be ok as well
- [20:07:41] <tantek>
I'd rather say that we don't have a specific date for when a FPWD will be ready, but if there are f3 that are interested in seeing something sooner please speak up.
- [20:07:45] <manu-home>
if all it entails is copying text verbatim from uF wiki to HTML WG spec.
- [20:07:59] <reschke>
As long as it's clear that the three of use commit ourselves to do this.
- [20:08:01] <manu-home>
tantek: I'm fine with that as well.
- [20:08:19] <tantek>
just saying that we're actively working on it in the open I think is sufficient
- [20:08:27] <tantek>
that way people that care can read updates as they wish
- [20:08:31] * memload__ (~jamesjeff@5ac8f055.bb.sky.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
- [20:08:32] <tantek>
without waiting for a FPWD
- [20:08:42] <tantek>
and that also removes the need to commit to a particular date
- [20:08:56] <tantek>
I'd rather push for a FPWD when we feel the contents are worthy, than a specific date.
- [20:08:57] <reschke>
yes, and we want to encourage (constructive) discussion anyway
- [20:09:07] <tantek>
and transparent development
- [20:09:28] <reschke>
I'm ok with both.
- [20:09:49] <manu-home>
ditto
- [20:10:29] <manu-home>
I think we should give /some/ idea of how long we think this is going to take, though.
- [20:10:34] <manu-home>
we don't want to leave it open ended.
- [20:10:48] <manu-home>
especially since we're asking for an extension.
- [20:10:55] <tantek>
we're not asking for an extension
- [20:11:04] <reschke>
something in between
- [20:11:07] <reschke>
:-)
- [20:11:17] <tantek>
we should be very clear we are ok with amicably closing the issue
- [20:11:24] <tantek>
that shows good faith up front
- [20:11:25] <reschke>
Can we say "by the end of March" and be done with that?
- [20:11:41] * emrojo (~emrojo@2001:720:410:100f:212:3fff:fe22:bbaf) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
- [20:11:51] <tantek>
we can say we hope to have a FPWD by the end of March, but will only propose it if we think the contents are worthy of it by then.
- [20:11:53] <manu-home>
we should make sure that by amicably closing the issue that we don't shut the door on @profile in any spec published via HTML WG first
- [20:12:10] <tantek>
we don't because this is new information
- [20:12:16] <tantek>
profile attribute on all elements is new information
- [20:12:24] <reschke>
manu: yes, that's why we're sending this proposal in the context of ISSE-55.
- [20:12:26] <tantek>
I'm really not worried about door closings like that
- [20:12:29] <manu-home>
We should make sure that the chairs agree with us.
- [20:12:39] <tantek>
why? I think the chairs are reasonable
- [20:12:47] <reschke>
I think by sending feedback in time we're ok.
- [20:12:47] <tantek>
I don't think we need to worry about that frankly
- [20:13:09] <tantek>
we shouldn't ask anyone to agree with us in advance for a proposal etc.
- [20:13:13] <tantek>
I don't think that's reasonable
- [20:13:33] <manu-home>
hrm, I think there is some miscommunication going on here.
- [20:13:43] <reschke>
no, we don't ask for agreement; we just announce our plan.
- [20:13:52] <manu-home>
I think that we should very clearly state our plan.
- [20:13:55] <manu-home>
right.
- [20:13:58] <tantek>
better to just say something like, we consider the generalization of the profile attribute to all elements to be new information and outside the scope of this current issue.
- [20:14:09] <manu-home>
I'd be fine with that.
- [20:14:20] <manu-home>
that would give anyone the opportunity to respond if they don't think that is the case.
- [20:14:25] <tantek>
that way, we're clear what we mean, and transparent with future plans
- [20:14:30] <tantek>
right
- [20:14:30] * manu-home nods.
- [20:14:54] <tantek>
much better to express expectation of good faith of other participants rather than attempt to bind people into agreeing IMHO
- [20:15:15] <manu-home>
we are in violent agreement.
- [20:15:52] <tantek>
I think in general the chairs tend to look more favorably upon folks who help encourage more civil discussions/culture/community in the working group.
- [20:16:03] <tantek>
Plus I think it helps set a good example.
- [20:16:09] <manu-home>
yup
- [20:16:24] <manu-home>
so, that clause should be added to the e-mail Julian.
- [20:16:25] <reschke>
so one more edit to the mail?
- [20:17:21] <tantek>
I've been editing the etherpad directly - can we update there?
- [20:17:48] <reschke>
sure, that was the point
- [20:18:19] <tantek>
manu - feel free to add scope and FPWD expectations language per the above
- [20:27:46] * manu-home (~chatzilla@pool-74-107-169-117.ronkva.east.verizon.net) has left #microformats
- [20:29:28] <mwunsch>
tantek: The problem was, i was saving my output as .vcard, not .vcf
- [20:29:37] <mwunsch>
Not sure...why that was causing an issue though
- [20:29:49] <mwunsch>
But HMachine can successfully convert hcards to vcards
- [20:29:51] <mwunsch>
:-)
- [20:29:54] <mwunsch>
pushing to github now
- [20:30:38] <tantek>
woohoo!
- [20:30:41] <tantek>
thanks mwunsch
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- [20:33:46] <tantek>
thanks manu and reschke - I think the html5-profile proposal is a good idea for many reasons
- [20:33:59] <tantek>
a few more minor updates - but definitely in need of more work:
- [20:34:05] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/html5-profile
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