IRC Log for #microformats on 2010-04-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  28. [07:52:52] <JonathanNeal> Hello my new friends!!!
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  32. [08:19:51] <JonathanNeal> Do I always need to wrap hcard implementations in class="vcard", or is there another way to tell -whatever- that I'll be using hcard microformat conventions?
  33. [08:20:06] <JonathanNeal> Particularly ... in HTML5
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  35. [08:25:23] <tantek> JonathanNeal - "vcard" is the root class name of an hCard
  36. [08:25:31] <tantek> so yes - that's always how you indicate the presence of an hCard
  37. [08:30:13] <JonathanNeal> So is the logo on my website a good candidate for hcard?
  38. [08:31:45] <JonathanNeal> I thought at first was using microformatting on their logo --- but there's no vcard, so they're not (in that case)
  39. [08:34:27] <csarven> JonathanNeal That might be due to wiki markup. No one got around to changing it. I would say the site logo, along with base information like fn, is a good candidate for hCard.
  40. [08:34:48] <csarven> Generally site logos are also links to the root of the site, so you could use url in there too
  41. [08:38:08] <csarven> tantek Thanks for your response on rel=contact. Much clear. I guess I was a bit unclear on the real need to indicate someone is a contact (someone that I can get a hold of). Hence, I leaned towards the basic acknowledgement of what a contact is in my assumption i.e., claiming someone is a contact because I had a previous engagement with them, I've checked them out, and they are okay. I didn't mean to emphasis on "friendship"
  42. [08:38:35] <csarven> Thanks for the update. Seems trivial at first but I admit, it threw me off :)
  43. [08:43:00] <csarven> JonathanNeal might interest you. It is one way of marking it up.
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  52. [10:30:04] <uf-wiki-visitor> Is this where I can get help with microformats?
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  69. [14:17:50] <JonathanNeal> Hi all!
  70. [14:18:14] <mwunsch> hello
  71. [14:23:34] <JonathanNeal> Are there any instances where I can properly use hcard markup without the class="vcard" wrapper? Say, for my website logo?
  72. [14:24:39] <singpolyma> JonathanNeal: You can use semantic classnames wherever they make sense, but it's not an hCard without the class=vcard wrapper
  73. [14:24:46] <singpolyma> Also.. didn't you ask that last night?
  74. [14:26:11] <JonathanNeal> csarven mentioned that it was a good candidate for hCard, but I wasn't sure if hCard was totally required at the time, because I had seen somewhere that you could link to the hCard profile instead.
  75. [14:26:50] <JonathanNeal> However, this feature is not enabled in HTML5, so I was just making sure :)
  76. [14:27:12] <singpolyma> What feature? HTML5 is fully compatible with all microformats (and HTML4)
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  79. [14:28:30] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma,
  80. [14:29:57] <singpolyma> JonathanNeal: Oh, profile is deprecated, sure. No one ever used it anyway
  81. [14:31:25] <JonathanNeal> Okay, cool. I didn't know that. I'm just now dabbling in microformat adoption and hadn't heard much about it before now. I've been adapting HTML5 and WAI accessibility like nuts, and then I heard that Google was especially reading and parsing hCard data.
  82. [14:32:18] <singpolyma> Sure. So, for it to be an hCard, you need class=vcard. You should use useful classnames like class=logo whether you want an hCard or not, though
  83. [14:33:49] <JonathanNeal> Right, and I do which is actually what made it so appealing. I like the whole idea of it --- how many approved microformats are there?
  84. [14:34:21] <singpolyma>
  85. [14:34:41] <singpolyma> In practise, many of the drafts are well accepted as well
  86. [14:34:56] <singpolyma> such as adr/hAtom/rel=home
  87. [14:35:17] <tantek> singpolyma - profile has been moved out of HTML5 and into a separate draft that is actually in development on the microformats wiki
  88. [14:36:26] <tantek>
  89. [14:36:43] <tantek> just as microdata and other modular features of html5 were made into separate drafts
  90. [14:36:56] * tantek ( Quit (Quit: tantek)
  91. [14:37:23] <singpolyma> ... Isn't that basically like the RDFa approach of "no, it doesn't validate, but it looks good to me" ?
  92. [14:39:21] <JonathanNeal> Is there already an html5 port of the hcard creator?
  93. [14:39:47] <singpolyma> JonathanNeal: "port"? Again... the html4 markup should be pretty much what you want
  94. [14:40:52] <JonathanNeal> actually, I think there could be some proper uses of address, tel, etc
  95. [14:41:07] <singpolyma> Examples?
  96. [14:41:48] <JonathanNeal> Sure, but gimme a minute to do something else (sorry, just a moment)
  97. [14:55:00] <JonathanNeal> Okay, back!
  98. [14:56:14] <JonathanNeal> So, right now what is <div class="adr" /> in the hCard Creator could be <address /> or <address class="adr" />
  99. [14:56:51] <singpolyma> The address semantics don't really match class="adr" too well
  100. [14:57:04] <singpolyma> "The address element must not be used to represent arbitrary addresses (e.g. postal addresses)"
  101. [14:57:14] <JonathanNeal> I'm not sure in your spec if the element negates the additional classname (in the way that aria roles are not required on elements which inherently contain them (eg. <nav role="navigation" /> can just be <nav>)
  102. [14:57:58] <JonathanNeal> Well, that's all relative to whether or not the contact content is relevant.
  103. [14:57:59] <singpolyma> <address> doesn't mean a mailing address, though. it means "some contact information"
  104. [14:58:26] <singpolyma> The *whole vcard* could be in <address> *if* appropriate, but the street address part of it is no more contact information than the rest
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  106. [14:59:00] <JonathanNeal> Right.
  107. [14:59:07] <JonathanNeal> No, I agree.
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  109. [15:00:56] <JonathanNeal> Now, time would be appropriate over abbr with hCalendar, yes?
  110. [15:01:04] <singpolyma> yes
  111. [15:01:06] <singpolyma> I do that
  112. [15:01:32] <singpolyma> Parsers do not currently support it much, but I do <time class="dtstart" datetime="...">...
  113. [15:03:04] <JonathanNeal> Example parsers?
  114. [15:03:45] <singpolyma>
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  116. [15:04:45] <JonathanNeal> Thanks for all the newb help :)
  117. [15:04:53] <singpolyma> np :)
  118. [15:13:43] <JonathanNeal> Pardon those in both #whatwg and here, but I'm wondering how microdata and microformat work together in HTML5, or if they do.
  119. [15:15:41] <singpolyma> Microdata seems to be a reinvention of microformats for no good reason at all :)
  120. [15:15:44] <singpolyma> I ignore it
  121. [15:15:50] <singpolyma> And hope it will go away
  122. [15:17:34] <JonathanNeal> Well, it could have reason - it would allow microformats to use their own namespace outside the classname.
  123. [15:18:26] <singpolyma> That's silly. Microformats don't just blindly use class, they use HTML features according to spec (such as rel, alt, class, etc)
  124. [15:18:29] <JonathanNeal> Not that it's required or best practice that they are, but I can see its use given the popular use of classnames for design modules, vs the clarity microformats separated out from these modules.
  125. [15:19:26] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma, I agree completely, it's more for those other classnames developers use for styling, ala oocss
  126. [15:19:55] <singpolyma> Well. (1) Doing that is IMHO wrong (2) You can do both, since you can have an arbitrary number of classes on any element
  127. [15:20:27] <JonathanNeal> You could (potentially) have a long list that is difficult to parse, whereas moving them to their own namespace defines them. I hope I'm not being vague and just coming across as an arguer.
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  129. [15:21:05] <singpolyma> hard to parse? Classes are space-separated... no parsing magic at all. it's just className.split(/\s+/)
  130. [15:22:37] <JonathanNeal> I can see both sides. You can't just give every popular module its own properties, otherwise a css layout like blueprint or 960grid could also lay claim to some arbitrary properties too.
  131. [15:23:29] <mwunsch> As a parser creator, I can tell you, it's not difficult to parse at all
  132. [15:23:43] <singpolyma> I think by properties you mean attributes
  133. [15:23:50] <JonathanNeal> mwunsch, what do you parse?
  134. [15:24:05] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma, yes (I corrected my verbage toward the end)
  135. [15:24:33] <mwunsch> I created a microformat parser in the Ruby programming language:
  136. [15:24:35] <JonathanNeal> Actually, I didn't ... in my head I did.
  137. [15:28:33] <csarven> re: adr in <address>. That is perfectly if fine if and only if the adr information a way to get a hold of the contact about the document.
  138. [15:29:01] <JonathanNeal> is address per document or section?
  139. [15:29:10] <JonathanNeal> *might be a question for whatwg*
  140. [15:29:23] <singpolyma> JonathanNeal: per <body> or per <article> :)
  141. [15:29:42] <singpolyma> but I would *never* use it for just the mailing address, I would use it for the whole hCard
  142. [15:29:46] <mwunsch> per sectioning group, is my understanding
  143. [15:29:54] <JonathanNeal> Well, section, article, and aside are meant to be independantly distributable content from the site.
  144. [15:29:59] <JonathanNeal> So I would think if one works, then all do.
  145. [15:30:03] <mwunsch> Yeah
  146. [15:30:33] <singpolyma> "The address element represents the contact information for its nearest article or body element ancestor" --
  147. [15:30:51] <singpolyma> article and body only
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  150. [15:35:00] <mwunsch> fascinating. good find singpolyma
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  156. [16:33:00] <JonathanNeal> back!
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  163. [18:44:59] <JonathanNeal> Does the hCard microformat Validator not recognize vcard when it is a classname along side others?
  164. [18:46:20] <JonathanNeal> Is that a bug or by design?
  165. [18:48:39] <JonathanNeal> Or am I just an idiot and accidentally put my vcard in id="".
  166. [18:48:44] <JonathanNeal> Oh, oh, I know!
  167. [18:51:24] <mwunsch> you win!
  168. [18:52:28] <JonathanNeal> Say I have a site title and a site slogan, is there microformating for that slogan?
  169. [18:53:39] <JonathanNeal> Another example, say I have a site title and a page title, is there microformating for that page title? To be more specific, say the site title is "Nike", the slogan is "Don't do it" and the page title is "Go away"
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  173. [18:59:48] <singpolyma> JonathanNeal: <hgroup> with <h1> and <h2> ?
  174. [19:00:24] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma, indeed! hgroup class="vcard" id="heading"
  175. [19:00:51] <singpolyma> <h1 class="org"> I guess, if you want an hCard there, yeah
  176. [19:01:08] <singpolyma> id="heading" seems redundant
  177. [19:05:40] <JonathanNeal> Well, and hgroup element has a native heading role, and when I choose ID's for the page (occuring once in the entire document) I usually use the the role name.
  178. [19:06:27] <JonathanNeal> As if to say "this is the primary use of this role on this page"
  179. [19:06:30] <singpolyma> Your call. it probably doesn't need any kind of id
  180. [19:06:52] * singpolyma << markup minimalist
  181. [19:17:11] <JonathanNeal> If I never intended to have another header or hgroup on the page, sure, but #ids are easy.
  182. [19:24:15] <singpolyma> :P
  183. [19:25:56] <JonathanNeal> So, is there a proper microformat for a slogan?
  184. [19:26:03] <JonathanNeal> or some other secondard title
  185. [19:26:26] <singpolyma> ... use an <hgroup> for a secondary title
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  187. [19:33:51] <JonathanNeal> <hgroup class="vcard" id="heading"><h1 class="site-title fn org">Nike</h1><h2 class="page-title ?">Don't Do Anything</h2></hgroup>
  188. [19:34:26] <JonathanNeal> s/page-title/site-slogan
  189. [19:35:31] <singpolyma> The only thing in hCard that even close to fits is "note" ... but that information doesn't really need to be included anyway... who puts company slogans in an addressbook?
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  196. [20:07:25] <JonathanNeal> agents?
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  205. [22:08:14] <JonathanNeal> Where can I get the descriptions of all the microformat classnames?
  206. [22:09:24] <JonathanNeal> Well, I guess I'll just go by
  207. [22:13:42] <singpolyma> The microformat spec pages usually list all of them. Otherwise, the original spec (as you said, vCard in the case of hCard) is a good place to look
  208. [22:14:20] <singpolyma> Also... don't make the mistake of thinking microformats are tied to classnames. Different ones use different elements/attributes based on what is correct semantically
  209. [22:15:18] <JonathanNeal> Well, I've been putting together a test page @
  210. [22:21:43] <singpolyma> <div class="vcard" id="main-document" role="document">
  211. [22:21:46] <singpolyma> srsly?
  212. [22:21:56] <singpolyma> A div wrapping the whole document? That's sort of evil
  213. [22:22:36] <JonathanNeal> I know.
  214. [22:22:49] <JonathanNeal> Well, a div wrapping the whole document isn't evil.
  215. [22:23:34] <singpolyma> Also, <div id=content><div id=main-content> ? That seems just... silly
  216. [22:23:36] <JonathanNeal> Many times you'll find sites have a dockbar or popout web application that sits aside the main document (main document includes the document heading, navigation, and main content)
  217. [22:24:39] <JonathanNeal> Well, breadcrumbs are part of the page's content, but not part of the main content since they are particular to each page, so they would go inside content.
  218. [22:24:41] <singpolyma> That sort of thing should be in an <aside> probably :) Any anyway, this is a div wrapping the entire <body>
  219. [22:25:04] <singpolyma> breadcrumbs are navigation
  220. [22:25:26] <singpolyma> Also, the email in the footer could be an hCard
  221. [22:26:10] <JonathanNeal> s/main content/site content (multipage)
  222. [22:26:21] <singpolyma> Oh, except that you've made the whole page one giant hCard... which seems silly... and they don't nest well
  223. [22:26:32] <JonathanNeal> Sure ... I think the hCard implementation is the most shady, and it's a v1 - which is why I shared it.
  224. [22:26:42] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma, I agree.
  225. [22:26:45] <singpolyma> here, one sec
  226. [22:27:54] <JonathanNeal> I can defend every use of a div because of how it will help me organize a variety of content and make it most accessible. However, I agree with everything you're saying about my hCard work.
  227. [22:28:15] <JonathanNeal> It was more to see if I could create a page that is also an hCard.
  228. [22:28:17] <singpolyma> if you're in html5, a div is almost always wrong
  229. [22:30:25] <JonathanNeal> I would disagree, or else roles would be useless.
  230. [22:31:18] <JonathanNeal> organizing content on a page and sectioning indepedently-distributable content are two very different things.
  231. [22:31:55] <singpolyma> all content is indepedently distributable :P
  232. [22:32:34] <JonathanNeal> So how do you organize the main content of a page that is all the section/articles on a particular page?
  233. [22:33:09] <singpolyma> All the sections/articles in body are the content of a page...
  234. [22:33:15] <JonathanNeal> They will only belong to body, which is nice and minimalist, but it will make them difficult to assign role="main"
  235. [22:34:30] <singpolyma> so assign role=main to body...
  236. [22:35:02] <singpolyma> role=main is mostly a hack to get around people who do it wrong anyway
  237. [22:35:31] <JonathanNeal> I think we may feel the same way about a lot of things, but we're trying to accomplish two different things.
  238. [22:35:34] <singpolyma>
  239. [22:36:18] <JonathanNeal> I'm trying to write something that can be hugely extendable in the shortest, most accessible code possible. I'm accounting for a portal, where they may be different and multiple headings, groups of articles, types of navigation (sitemap, page breadcrumb, webapp sitemap), etc.
  240. [22:36:49] <singpolyma> groups of articles are a <section>
  241. [22:37:32] <JonathanNeal> Yes, but sometimes the body header describes the content on the page and how it is different than the multipage.
  242. [22:37:43] <JonathanNeal> eg Jonathan Neal | Home
  243. [22:38:17] <singpolyma> sure... hence the body-level <header>
  244. [22:38:22] <JonathanNeal> So you'd have to move "Home" into the <h1> inside the first <section>, which would be after your heading and navigation --- and that wouldn't organize the content well, especially not for styling, which I admit I account for.
  245. [22:39:12] <singpolyma> Why? Home is a part of the heading for all the everything on the page
  246. [22:41:05] <JonathanNeal> So then you would group all of those multiple articles on the page into one section
  247. [22:41:15] <JonathanNeal> And that would just be an untitled section?
  248. [22:41:39] <singpolyma> If that's semantically what you want, then yes. There is no need for that usually
  249. [22:41:39] <JonathanNeal> ps I love what you've shown me on the pastie and I'm working it in right now.
  250. [22:41:59] <JonathanNeal> It's useful to group multiple articles / sections / applications on a page, especially in a portal.
  251. [22:42:28] <JonathanNeal> Visual organization is important, and that can require those divs and spans.
  252. [22:42:39] <singpolyma> yes, just not *all* of them. Any time every single thing in body is in one tag, it's probably wrong... <body> can contain content for a reason
  253. [22:43:02] <JonathanNeal> It does, that div can be one of many in the body.
  254. [22:43:14] <singpolyma> Any styling should be possible with any markup. Give or take
  255. [22:43:41] <singpolyma> check out the markup (non-HTML5) on ... it's nothing like you probably expect
  256. [22:43:43] <JonathanNeal> <body><div id="control-panel" role="application" /><div id="main-document" /><div id="chat-bar" role="application" />
  257. [22:44:16] <JonathanNeal> s/id="main-document" role="document"
  258. [22:44:58] <singpolyma> control panel and chat bar are probably <aside> control panel may be <nav> depending what's in it
  259. [22:45:13] <singpolyma> even if they are divs, the main document doesn't need to be in a div just because they are
  260. [23:01:53] * Hey_neken ( Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  261. [23:12:34] * BobJonkman ( has joined #microformats
  262. [23:19:03] <JonathanNeal> Well, it's a nice way to organize and style it.
  263. [23:19:12] <JonathanNeal> I've updated the page using your suggestions. I like it!
  264. [23:20:52] <singpolyma> :)
  265. [23:22:05] <singpolyma> I'm not sure <a class="include"> can validly have text content. The whole point is supposed to be for when you don't want there to be text content
  266. [23:22:37] <singpolyma> Also, I'm not sure if you can include an id that is not the actual element with the data you want...
  267. [23:22:51] <singpolyma> in this case, you actually want the <a> but are including the parent <h1>
  268. [23:23:42] <singpolyma> also, you now have still the two <div>s *and* have added a <section> inside... that's *more* cruft, not less :P
  269. [23:24:19] <singpolyma> Aside from that, looks pretty good
  270. [23:28:44] <JonathanNeal> Nothing changed with the <div>s and <section.s
  271. [23:30:20] <JonathanNeal> singpolyma, well I am following the conventions, maybe not quite the way you intended, but they certainly work and they validate.
  272. [23:32:03] <JonathanNeal> The other thing is that, if I remove the text from that anchor, then the anchor is no longer accessible.
  273. [23:32:10] <JonathanNeal> Which is the point of anchors with hrefs.
  274. [23:44:52] <JonathanNeal> I swapped out the anchor with an object, since it seemed more apt.
  275. [23:47:21] <JonathanNeal> It's in the notes and issues "Unlike the hyperlink pattern, the object is not believed to cause problems in assistive technology when fallback text is absent."
  276. [23:47:50] <JonathanNeal> It would have been nice to use <link> but alas, no allowed.
  277. [23:54:59] * Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)

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